contradiction

[jammi567]

Neither Tidus nor Jecht have heard of summoners before. and yet, when the fayth explains about the war, he says that Zanarkand used the summoners and bevelle used the machana.

what do you think.

[Yew-Yevon]

Tidus and Jecht were blitzballl players not military or rilligous typs...so that would explain it.

[ReloadPsi]

Add to this the fact that Tidus and Jecht were created artificially as a dream that emulates the original Zanarkand. As far as they're concerned the war didn't happen, because in the real world Zanarkand was clearly destroyed in said war.

[Mirage]

Yes. Psi has it spot on.

[jammi567]

okay, but Yu-Yevon, even if they were, they still should've heard about them. i mean, it's not like they didn't die in a war or anything.

[ReloadPsi]

FFX-2 Spoiler here, so I'll test your willpower now by telling you not to read if you ain't finished it yet and still don't hate it (I still don't hate it :) ): Shuyin and Lenne died as some kinda result of that war: Shuyin attempted to commandeer Vegnagun, and Lenne tried to stop him. The two were then shot dead. Although nothing is canonically confirmed, Tidus is basically the dream counterpart of Shuyin, heck, Shuyin even uses all of Tidus' Overdrives* and sometimes, at the start of that fight, Jecht will yell "Put that crybaby to sleep!"

Terror of Zanarkand = Blitz Ace
Hit & Run = Slice and Dice
Force Rain = Energy Rain
Spinning Cut = Spiral Cut

Jecht, the Zanarkand Abes and every other ethereal being Tidus knew in Zanarkand could be representative of anyone. There is no actual connection between Yuna and Lenne, just to let you know

[Renmiri]

Neither Tidus nor Jecht have heard of summoners before. and yet, when the fayth explains about the war, he says that Zanarkand used the summoners and bevelle used the machana.

what do you think.

Both Jecht and Tidus had met Summoners by the time the fayth talked to them. In their first day in Spira Tidus and Jecht might have been curious but after Jecht met Braska and after Tidus met Yuna (and Valefor) why would they be surprised with a city of Summoners ?

[jammi567]

Okay, but tidus should've pointed out that there were no summoners in his city then.

[Renmiri]

He did point out that there were no fiends except for Sin and the sinspawn.

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

Umm, even though the war happened a thousand years ago from Spira, who says it was taking place when Tidus or Jecht were still around in Zanarkand? And summoners might not've even been around during their time, they don't have exact dates or anything on this matter. Even though it was a dream world, it was still the history of Zanarkand.

[Renmiri]

jammie and Hero: There NEVER WAS A WAR in Dream Zanarkand, the city Jecht and Tidus grew up. The city was created by the old Zanarkand war survivors and Yu Yevon precisely to be a model of what Zanarkand was / could be if untouched by war. It is an entirely different city from the one in Yuna's world. It is not even on the same location.

Dream Zanarkand is summoned on an island far from the penisula where war torn Zanarkand Ruins are found, as you can clearly see in this Ultimania map below

http://ffproject.net/forumwiki/images/thumb/800px-Dzproof.jpg

[Heero Yuy NWZC]

I'm sure that this world, just as our own, has tectonic plates, a lot can change in 1000 years, Zanarkand could've attached and become that peninsula. I don't recall them ever saying that it was a model of Zanarkand untouched by the war. It were the fayth that created it though, and they didn't necessarily survive the war since they are now only spirits. Plus, Yu Yevon is only the cretor of Sin, not the dream Zanarkand.

[Little Blue]

He did point out that there were no fiends except for Sin and the sinspawn.

Actually, Tidus mentions that fiends do appear sometimes, though rarely, but it's usually a big deal when one shows up.


And summoners might not've even been around during their time, they don't have exact dates or anything on this matter. Even though it was a dream world, it was still the history of Zanarkand.

ie, Dream Zanarkand started out with summoners 1000 years ago and this Summoner caste just died out and was forgotten long before Jecht was born?


I'm sure that this world, just as our own, has tectonic plates, a lot can change in 1000 years, Zanarkand could've attached and become that peninsula. I don't recall them ever saying that it was a model of Zanarkand untouched by the war. It were the fayth that created it though, and they didn't necessarily survive the war since they are now only spirits. Plus, Yu Yevon is only the cretor of Sin, not the dream Zanarkand.

Actually, Yu Yevon is the creator of DZ too. He uses the fayth on gagazet to create a "perfect" Zanarkand. One untouched by war.

[jammi567]

jammie and Hero: There NEVER WAS A WAR in Dream Zanarkand, the city Jecht and Tidus grew up. The city was created by the old Zanarkand war survivors and Yu Yevon precisely to be a model of what Zanarkand was / could be if untouched by war. It is an entirely different city from the one in Yuna's world. It is not even on the same location.

Dream Zanarkand is summoned on an island far from the penisula where war torn Zanarkand Ruins are found, as you can clearly see in this Ultimania map below
i know this. but this explains why they didn't have any summoners, and why they didn't know what they were.

[Renmiri]

Actually, Yu Yevon is the creator of DZ too. He uses the fayth on gagazet to create a "perfect" Zanarkand. One untouched by war.
True. This explains why Tidus and Jecht never heard about war


i know this. but this explains why they didn't have any summoners, and why they didn't know what they were.

Can dream people summon ? Methinks not. Otherwise Bahamut could summon a "junior Bahamut" and so on. Surely a Final Aeon would be able to summon an army of small aeons if this was possible.

The very nature of Dream Zanarkand precludes the existence of Summoners IMHO. The people on Dream Zanarkand are essentially Aeons, and as such can not summon another Aeon.

This would explain Tidus and Jecht having never met a summoner, an Aeon, spheres and pyreflies. None of those where very practical to have in DZ because there was no summoner to manipulate the pyreflies, seal them into spheres, summon aeons, etc..


Actually, Tidus mentions that fiends do appear sometimes, though rarely, but it's usually a big deal when one shows up.

I think he was referring to Sin's appearance at DZ, at the beggining of X. At least I suspect Tidus had not seen fiends before Sin attacked DZ, as he didn't even own a sword or know what to do when confronted with sins scales.

[Little Blue]

Can dream people summon ? Methinks not. Otherwise Bahamut could summon a "junior Bahamut" and so on. Surely a Final Aeon would be able to summon an army of small aeons if this was possible.


I agree with your conclusion, but not the reasoning. If the Bahamut Aeon were to summon itself, it would be calling on the same resources that are already in use, and this is not possible, like why you can't summon Valefor while fighting Ptera (sp? Isaaru's Valefore in any case). Similarly, if the soul manifestation (the ghost of the kid) were to summon, he's energies would immediately be put into becoming the aeon, thus the ghost would fade, which then removes anyforce pulling the aeon together, therefore the aeon would not appear. This would be why any aeon could not summon itself. I see nothing ruling out the summoning of other aeons however, and am at a loss to explain a mechanism what would prevent that, but I do believe it may be possible, see next point.



The very nature of Dream Zanarkand precludes the existence of Summoners IMHO. The people on Dream Zanarkand are essentially Aeons, and as such can not summon another Aeon.


Leading on from my previous point, Aeons can use magic, which is pyrefly manipulation. Also, Jecht, an aeon under current definitions, was able to become a fayth. He became an aeon aeon. This implies that whatever force was summoning him made his hold on the world so pervasive and impermeable that he was real enough to become a fayth, so I do not see why he could also not summon. Certainly being composed entirely of pyreflies would not stop him, see Belgemine, the unsent summoner.



I think he was referring to Sin's appearance at DZ, at the beggining of X. At least I suspect Tidus had not seen fiends before Sin attacked DZ, as he didn't even own a sword or know what to do when confronted with sins scales.

One would think that this event would be quite traumatic, right? Then why, if he is refering to this, would he sound amused, as if he was remembering good and fun times? Unless my memory is wrong, he sounded nostalgic and energetic when he recalled the few fiends that DZ had seen.

[Renmiri]

We have seen on X-2 that the fayth / aeons are quite helpless without a summoner, unable to prevent Shuyin from making them do his dirty deeds. Which leads me to believe that the magic the Aeons use comes from the summoner or needs a summoner to be used. This is why I don't believe there was magic in Zanarkand: there where no summoners but Yu Yevon and he was kind of in a coma, only living to summon and protect DZ.

Belgemine, Seymour and Lenne had been summoners while alive, which I believe made a big difference.

As far as Tidus smiling when he talked about Sin in DZ, it's just the way he was: a cheerful guy. Hence hated by FFVII fanboys who like their heros moody and dark :p

[Odaisé Gaelach]

Yes. Psi has it spot on.

Yes. Yes he does.


but Yu Yevon and he was kind of in a comma, only living to summon and protect DZ.

So what you're saying is that punctuation is to blame for everything?

[Renmiri]

So what you're saying is that punctuation is to blame for everything?

No, but grammar is :p

[cally777]

I don't think Tidus was talking about Sin or Sinspawn when he mentioned fiends. If you remember he says "Its a big deal when ONE shows up". As Sin's "attack" on DZ involved Sinspawn PLURAL, Tidus could not be referring to this incident, so he must have been thinking about another time when just one fiend appeared.