Summoners without a fayth?

[No.78]

The fayth are the people of Zanarkand yes? The city that was destroyed in a war... Bevelles machina VS The summoners of zanarkand. How can a summoner exist before the time of fayth? Were there other fayths? Am I asking too many questions? Are you on fire right now?


:mog: :mog: :mog: :mog: :mog: :mog:

[Tavrobel]

Either other Fayth existed (and were destroyed), or the summoners of Zanarkand could summon without Fayth. After major civilizations are destroyed, often that goes with it is some special secret of war. Machina were developed in response to Summons, not as a symbiotic result of evolution. Skills versus Manufacturing. It's World War I all over again.

[Renmiri]

Fayths existed before the Fayth Spring. Zanarkand was after all, the city of Summoners.

Me and Duality (artist formerly known as Aurons Ghost) still debate till today if any of the 9 Fayth (Valefor, Ifrit, Ixion, Bahamut, Shiva, Yojimbo, 3 Magus Sisters) were made before or after the Zanarkand / Bevelle war.

We know Anima was made 10-15 years prior to X by Yunalesca. We know that because Anima's fayth is Seymour's late mother

[jammi567]

i think they were afterwards.

[Renmiri]

Never!!!!

At least Yojimbo or the Magus were from before, because they are 2 or 3 on a fayth stone (guy and dog, 3 sisters).

And if they were made after the war, who made them ? Bevelle ? Yunalesca ? Someone else ?

Methinks only Yunalesca could make fayth and Aeons, otherwise Bevelle would have them by the thousands (the greedy power hungry SOBs they were)

[ReloadPsi]

Basically, half the citizens of Zanarkand were walking along one day and all of a sudden, they fell in a plot hole and became able to summon.

It's likely that summons never needed Fayth in the first place, but in revenge for the war, Yu-Yevon makes it the case because he wants to send Spira into that Spiral of Death that forces two people to completely give themselves up to defeat Sin (a Fayth is nominated and the Summoner dies). After the Final Aeon is created, it seems the Fayth becomes Sin until the next Final Aeon; if Yuna had defeated Sin by "conventional" means, the next one to complete the pilgrimage could have found Jecht as an Aeon if they'd looked in the right place, but it was never to be.

This also means that Valefor, Bahamut and definitely Anima, along with all the others have been Sin in the past. How the Magus Sisters came to be is questionable, but hey, Yunalesca never said how many people had to give themselves up to form an Aeon.

[Little Blue]

I've long held the theory that Zanarkand had many fayth and therefore summoners for a long time before the machina war. Sin then destroyed most of them. :p The survivors of Zanarkand (before sin appeared though) formed the Fayth on Gagazet which Dream Zanarkand was formed from and the pilgrimage fayth we know are a mixture of pre war (possibly scavenged from Zanarkand) and post war fayth (created by the Yevon clergy). This bit about pre and post war fayth is supported by the ultimania guides (last time I checked on the gamefaq's FFX forums at least :p) as it states that Bahamut was the oldest from before the war and Valefor was the newest formed to extend the pilgrimage. I hope we all know the situations surrounding Anima's creation and why it shouldn't be considered one of the temple aeons like Bahamut and Valefor, even though the party uses her in much the same way.

The simple mechanics of the world however prevent summoning without a fayth. Hence why you can't summon Bahamut until after you meet it in X and also why you can't summon anything in X-2, since the fayth statues are gone.

Now for some semantics. :p By "Time of the Fayth" I could assume you mean under the Yevon faith? This would also seem to imply that Summoner's cannot exist pre Time of the Fayth. However, this would be Summoner's in the role we see them as in the game. In X-2, Lenne is reportedly a summoner, but does not fill the role of the Pilgrim Summoner (primarily a performer, whereas "True Summoners" would devote themselves to the pilgrimage) and thus may not be considered a true summoner, but that's semantics to the extent of cultural definition and significance :p

No, questions are good.

Thankfully, I am not on fire right now. I hope that does not change any time soon.

Edit:

Renmiri: Just because they're multiple entity fayth does not force them to be pre Sin.

And although I'm all for showing Bevelle as the bad guys, considering by the time they made the teachings, they had Spira pretty much under control, and this was the only known way to get rid of sin for a little bit, it makes sense for them not to belittle it by having legions of useless aeons. I believe Bevelle could make aeons, but knew they had to limit it in order for effective manipulation of the masses.

Psi: Fayth are needed for summons. The soul of the fayth provide the template, if you will, which the summoner builds on with pyreflies. They're effectively the architect with blueprints and summoners are mere builders.

You're right about the final aeon becoming sin, but as seen by the statue of Lord Zaon's fayth in Zanarkand, once the FA core of sin is destroyed, the statue is no longer useable, so the pilgrimage aeons could not possibly be successful final aeons. There are however theories that temple aeons were final aeons to someone, but the summoner then chickened out / died en route after getting the FA / died fighting sin before they could summon the FA / or the summoner final aeon combo was so pathetic that it couldn't kill sin. This would leave a fully useable fayth statue in Yunalesca's closet of fayth, which someone could just take out one day and install in a temple, like Seymour and Anima.

[Tavrobel]

Now, now, little children. Let's separate into corners, because we all know that we aren't going to prove anything.

DODGEBALL!

[Little Blue]

Now, now, little children. Let's separate into corners, because we all know that we aren't going to prove anything.

DODGEBALL!

QFT, since it all just circumstantial and wild, if educated, guesswork, even if I do say so myself. :D

*Gets hit in the face by the ball, breaking glasses, and falling into tears as all the other kids laugh*

I should learn to dodge...

[Renmiri]

Buahaha!

Methinks that at least one or two of the Aeons are failed Final Aeons and the rest is pre war or done by Yunalesca at Bevelle's request.

I do not believe Bevelle would pass up the chance of having an army of Aeons at it's beck and call if it had the ability to make them. The weasels even use machina!

[blackmage_nuke]

Maybe before they had fayth statues they had to sacrifice people to become summons like final aeons

Or maybe when people die in zanarkand they become fayth

-

[Little Blue]

I do not believe Bevelle would pass up the chance of having an army of Aeons at it's beck and call if it had the ability to make them. The weasels even use machina!

They use machina because they're corrupt and because it's not within plain view of the puplic, ie, they can get away with it. What would an army of Aeons accomplish? Normal Aeons are useless against Sin, and an army of aeons implies an army of summoners. At what point would these people be able to attempt the pilgrimage? What incentive is there to even become a summoner if there are thousands of them in the first place. It'd be like just another job. In this extrapolation, I hope you can see that the pilgrimage tradition would collapse, and leading to a state where no one would challenge Sin with final aeons, mainly because the summoners who do would likely be picked out of a line up by bevelle, when all the poor sod signed up for was a job that would lead to a nice retirement.

Without the pilgrimages, the Yevon faith would destabalise and Bevelle would lose control of the world.

Besides, there is really know evidence of Bevelle being complete greedy s.o.bs. All we know is that they was in a war 1000 years ago, and were backed into a corner by Sin / Yunalesca, and had no choice but to perpetuate the Spiral of Death. Like I said earlier, I'm all for portraying Bevelle as the bad guys, but they are now trying to be the good guys and give Spira hope otherwise Spira will spiral into a sea of it's own despair, even if it is a false hope, they allow children to sleep soundly at night.

[Timster]

You're right about the final aeon becoming sin, but as seen by the statue of Lord Zaon's fayth in Zanarkand, once the FA core of sin is destroyed, the statue is no longer useable, so the pilgrimage aeons could not possibly be successful final aeons. There are however theories that temple aeons were final aeons to someone, but the summoner then chickened out / died en route after getting the FA / died fighting sin before they could summon the FA / or the summoner final aeon combo was so pathetic that it couldn't kill sin. This would leave a fully useable fayth statue in Yunalesca's closet of fayth, which someone could just take out one day and install in a temple, like Seymour and Anima.

I have a theory!

We all know that Belgemine tried to defeat Sin with her FA. But we also know that she failed. Since she resides in Remiem temple isn't it possible that The Magus Sisters are her final aeon? Because she didn't win, the aeons/fayth weren't possesed by Yu-Yevon and were therefore still usable.

She wasn't sent either, meaning that she could be the one that created Remiem temple and moved the fayth there.

[Renmiri]

Oooo! Aye, that makes sense about Belgemine :D

Yojimbo, Anima and the Magus Sisters are noticeably stronger than the other Aeons (with the exception of Bahamut, perhaps) so since Anima is a "failed Final Aeon" maybe the other two are failedd FA's as well. It would explain the name "stolen Fayth" for Yojimbo: stolen from Yunalesca's dome and it would explain Belgemine's proximity to the Magus Sisters.

PS: Duality you have a point, but I prefer to think evil Bevelle Maesters care not for Spira's people, they do what they do only for power.

[Little Blue]

I have a theory!

We all know that Belgemine tried to defeat Sin with her FA. But we also know that she failed. Since she resides in Remiem temple isn't it possible that The Magus Sisters are her final aeon? Because she didn't win, the aeons/fayth weren't possesed by Yu-Yevon and were therefore still usable.

She wasn't sent either, meaning that she could be the one that created Remiem temple and moved the fayth there.

I've heard that theory a lot, and I don't see any real flaw in it either, other than it disagree's with my own theories regarding Belgemine and the Sisters that I won't bore you with, but this is all just speculation. :p



Yojimbo, Anima and the Magus Sisters are noticeably stronger than the other Aeons (with the exception of Bahamut, perhaps) so since Anima is a "failed Final Aeon" maybe the other two are failedd FA's as well. It would explain the name "stolen Fayth" for Yojimbo: stolen from Yunalesca's dome and it would explain Belgemine's proximity to the Magus Sisters.

PS: Duality you have a point, but I prefer to think evil Bevelle Maesters care not for Spira's people, they do what they do only for power.

I'm glad you point out Bahamut as an exception, because it allows for the use of the phrase "well if Bahamut can be an extremely powerful aeon and be a temple aeon, why can't Yojimbo or the Magus Sisters?". To which you'll reply "he's an EXCEPTION" and thus begins a spiral of our own. :bigsmile: (the tone of your reply could vary depending on which loop we're on ;))

And Bevelle may not care for Spira's people, but to maintain power in a hopeless situation, would it not be better to create and reinforce hope (even false hope) that do something completely useless. Seriously, "All our people are scared silly, lets make an army of aeons that can get squished, thus confirming we're complete imbiciles, possibly launching us into the losing end of a coup" is not the more powerful option when compared to "Lets make a religion where we claim we can get rid of the thing that scares our people, the people will love us and follow us blindly."

[Timster]

I have a theory!

We all know that Belgemine tried to defeat Sin with her FA. But we also know that she failed. Since she resides in Remiem temple isn't it possible that The Magus Sisters are her final aeon? Because she didn't win, the aeons/fayth weren't possesed by Yu-Yevon and were therefore still usable.

She wasn't sent either, meaning that she could be the one that created Remiem temple and moved the fayth there.

I've heard that theory a lot, and I don't see any real flaw in it either, other than it disagree's with my own theories regarding Belgemine and the Sisters that I won't bore you with, but this is all just speculation. :p

You won't bore us, unless you've got like a 10 page paper on the subject. And now you got me curious to what it is, so tell it!:p

BESIDES it's like adding ESSENTIAL information to the discussion!:p
*meaning: I wan't to see if your theory is better than mine!*;):D

[yojimbosoul]

Summoners don't JUST summon, they can cast magic too. the fayths are anyone willing to sacrafice themselves to be a shield for someone else (anima --> Seymore). So the fayths were peobably made in the middle of the war with the increasing ammounts of death and need for more power.

[Little Blue]

You won't bore us, unless you've got like a 10 page paper on the subject. And now you got me curious to what it is, so tell it!:p

BESIDES it's like adding ESSENTIAL information to the discussion!:p
*meaning: I wan't to see if your theory is better than mine!*;):D

lol, if you insist, but don't say I didn't warn you.

Since Remiem is one of the last places on a pilgrimage for a summoner to visit before proceeding to Zanarkand (This would be before the bridge by the calm lands entrance was destroyed :p), the Magus Sisters would be one of the most powerful aeons you could get. If you notice the lack of a trial, it kind of makes you wonder what a summoner has to do to prove worthy of them... I've theorised that when Remiem was originally set up, it had a guard from Bevelle stationed there who could summon all the aeons and you would need to defeat this summoner and all their aeons to prove worthy of the Sisters. A combative Cloister of Trials rather than a puzzle.

Anyway, this person eventually died and stayed there as an unsent for centuries until Belgemine trundled by, and defeated them, discovered they were an unsent and sent it without realising the purpose this being played. She then went to meet the sisters who scorned her severely for sending their guardian. She would vow to defeat Sin and return to Remiem to act as their guardian, albeit an unsent guardian. Reluctantly Belgemine agreed, screwed up her pilgrimage, but went to guard the sisters afterwords.

And thus Belgemine has all the aeons which you must defeat to get the Sister's.

That's my theory at least. I like it. (It even has a bit more depth that the fayth were outcasts from Bevelle for disagreeing with the Machina War or something, and the original guardian was the guy who banished them in the first place and then sought forgiveness after seeing they were right, thus they made him guard them)

That's entirely speculative however :D

[Renmiri]

ooo makes sense!

Write a fanfic for it :D

[Little Blue]

lol, I thought about it, but it would need to be for the entirety of Belgemine's pilgrimage, and frankly, I can't be bothered to do that yet. :p

I did however write one for the formation of the fayth (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2738426/1/) (which you know about renmiri, but it needs revising methinks since it has a load of crazy theories that I need to remove, refine or replace. Also, I'm not that good a writer so it's not that good anyway :p).

Anyway, yojimbosoul, fayth aren't something like machina. They can't just be churned out of factories, I like to think Zanarkand had some morals, but sufficed to say, I do kind of agree that there may have been an increase in fayth creation during the war, obviously ignoring the creation of the fayth on Gagazet ;).

[Timster]

wow all were great theories, if I get some more information or theories I'll definitely post!