Prove it!!!

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

Okay, I'm highly agrivated over people saying that Sephiroth wasn't the protagonist. Well, I have something for those who believe it... I say prove it and I'll give you proof that he is the true nature of evil in FFVII.

[Griff]

Okay, I'm highly agrivated over people saying that Sephiroth wasn't the protagonist. Well, I have something for those who believe it... I say prove it and I'll give you proof that he is the true nature of evil in FFVII.

Simple proof. The protagonist is the main hero, Cloud. Sephiroth was the main Antagonist though.

[jammi567]

Other, as it was cloud...

[Goldenboko]

Hojo :p
He did seem to cause everything though, he created Sephiroth,wanted Aeris, and experimented with Jenova cells.


PS- The poll says villain so not other.

[Psychotic]

Kotch, that minion of Corneo. He was a pretty bad dude. He tried to rape Cloud while he was dressed as a lady!

Topic creator, may I add Kotch to the poll? I know I could vote for other, but I really feel Kotch deserves a category of his own.

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

Kotch, that minion of Corneo. He was a pretty bad dude. He tried to rape Cloud while he was dressed as a lady!

Topic creator, may I add Kotch to the poll? I know I could vote for other, but I really feel Kotch deserves a category of his own.

That is IF you didn't do everything right. But I'm serious. What chararacter was the main villian?


Hojo :p
He did seem to cause everything though, he created Sephiroth,wanted Aeris, and experimented with Jenova cells.


PS- The poll says villain so not other.

What I mean is if you think there is a bad guy out there for you to put other and say who. Oh, to let you know, Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova, so when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells..he was slowly being subjected to Sephiroth's will, and he didn't create Sephiroth either nor did he want Aeirth..just to mate RedXIII and her together is all.

Hey, next time you have something to add to your post, use the edit button please! -kikimm

[Goldenboko]

Hojo :p
He did seem to cause everything though, he created Sephiroth,wanted Aeris, and experimented with Jenova cells.


PS- The poll says villain so not other.

What I mean is if you think there is a bad guy out there for you to put other and say who. Oh, to let you know, Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova, so when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells..he was slowly being subjected to Sephiroth's will, and he didn't create Sephiroth either nor did he want Aeirth..just to mate RedXIII and her together is all.

Yes he did. Hojo took his and Lucrecia's baby and had him have Jenova Cells in the womb. If he didn't do that then there would be no Sephiroth.

[Christmas]

Mukki. :(

[Yliette]

Shinra. They don't care if all the Lifestream is siphoned out and converted to Mako. All that matters to them is filling their own pockets with gold.

After all, money and greed are the root of all evil. :cool:

[Andy]

It all depends on the villan's perspective. I'd have to say Jenova because she basically wanted to steal the planet from the Ancients. Also she brainwashed Sephiroth and took total control over him. Sephiroth is a puppet just like Cloud. Hmm... the Shinra? I could say that they're wrong because they're trying to suck the life out of the earth, but also consider that they're trying to make life easier and more efficient like our current society. Sooo... Shinra's is not totally evil. Hojo's just crazy and bored.


Mukki. :(

"Hey Bubby <3" hahhahahahaha. OHMAN. He was SO GAY.

[Xurts]

Lol. Sephiroth. Hojo, Jenova? Uh, no.

[Dragon Mage]

Jenova. That was the root of all evil. That was the main antagonist. It nearly wiped out the Cetra, gives the means to creating Seiphiroth, was the reason why Sephiroth wanted to destroy (or whatever) the planet, and it was Jenova's cells that started killing people in AC and gave the wonder brothers their power.

Jenova. Final answer.

[Stunt]

Shinra, they were the ones sucking the life out of the earth.

[Omni-Odin]

Sephiroth.

[Ryushikaze]

It all depends on the villan's perspective. I'd have to say Jenova because she basically wanted to steal the planet from the Ancients. Also she brainwashed Sephiroth and took total control over him. Sephiroth is a puppet just like Cloud.

No. He isn't. Sephiroth was in control of the brain dead Jenova.

[thegirth]

Kotch, that minion of Corneo. He was a pretty bad dude. He tried to rape Cloud while he was dressed as a lady!


in light of this i will be voting other, but my vote will be for Scotch (corneos other lackey) who was way more evil then sephiroth, hojo, jenova, shinra and Kotch put together

[d£v!l'$ ph0£n!x]

CORNEO!!!! r all u guys blind!?

[McLovin']

Sephiroth seemed like he wanted everyone dead in Kingdom Hearts and he wants to destroy the planet with Meteor as well as become a god. Does that not scream "I AM A VILLAIN MWAHAHAHA!" to you?

JENOVA wasn't the main villain because she DIDN'T DO ANYTHING EXCEPT USE SEPHIROTH.

Hojo isn't the main villain in THIS game because he has his own villanious spree in DoC.

[jammi567]

Oh for gods sake, she didn't control him, he did!

[Mavander]

I think that if there's a villain, that's Jenova. ShinRa at the end partly fought with Cloud's team, and Sepiroth's just gone crazy because of finding out about his origins. He was more of a person, to destroy the whole planet... while Jenova appeared long time ago and attemped herself to become a God. Sephiroth was probably helping her, because it meant destruction of the whole lot of people. Besides, he was injected with her cells, so we can't know if he was controlling her, or she was controlling him. I think it's that Jenova controlled Sephiroth.

[Mirage]

Remember that thief who followed you in the Corel prison? He was a mean :(.

[jammi567]

so we can't know if he was controlling her, or she was controlling him. I think it's that Jenova controlled Sephiroth.
yes we can, just look in the Ultimcecia Omega guide, and it says it right there that Sephirpoth was controlling Jenova.

[Mercen-X]

Jenova brainwashed Sephiroth and took total control over him. Sephiroth is a puppet just like Cloud.

No, he isn't. Sephiroth was in control of the brain dead Jenova.
Only after her will had already driven him insane and he cut her head off.



so we can't know if he was controlling her, or she was controlling him.
yes we can, just look in the Ultimecia Omega guide, and it says it right there that Sephiroth was controlling Jenova.You're funny. You get a gold star.

[BarelySeeAtAll]

i wish i could have out down hojo, but it was only vincents life and Lucretias life he mucked up, and sephis...no, he wouldnt be here without him, ok, ignore that
so i put shinra co. down, they ruined way too much
aha, but, hojo had made sorta sephi, who killed loads of people because of it...oh, someone help me with my thoughts and what i m putting across, i cant!

[jammi567]

so we can't know if he was controlling her, or she was controlling him.
yes we can, just look in the Ultimecia Omega guide, and it says it right there that Sephiroth was controlling Jenova.You're funny. You get a gold star.[/quote]
errr, thanks. i have no idea why i'm funny, but thanksanyway, yu've made my day now.

[Xurts]

For those that haven't realized it already: Sephiroth was controlling Jenova.

[Dragon Mage]

Indeed. Jenova is dead. But Sephiroth, who basically shares Jenova's cells, can control the dead body of Jenova. Keep in mind that this 'spieces' can control every cell of it's body.

Get it?

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

Hojo :p
He did seem to cause everything though, he created Sephiroth,wanted Aeris, and experimented with Jenova cells.


PS- The poll says villain so not other.

What I mean is if you think there is a bad guy out there for you to put other and say who. Oh, to let you know, Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova, so when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells..he was slowly being subjected to Sephiroth's will, and he didn't create Sephiroth either nor did he want Aeirth..just to mate RedXIII and her together is all.

Yes he did. Hojo took his and Lucrecia's baby and had him have Jenova Cells in the womb. If he didn't do that then there would be no Sephiroth.

Your missing my point! I mean that Sephiroth wasn't created from cell to cell by Hojo, he experimented Jenova cell with Sephiroth still in the womb and on himself later on.


Sephiroth seemed like he wanted everyone dead in Kingdom Hearts and he wants to destroy the planet with Meteor as well as become a god. Does that not scream "I AM A VILLAIN MWAHAHAHA!" to you?

JENOVA wasn't the main villain because she DIDN'T DO ANYTHING EXCEPT USE SEPHIROTH.

Hojo isn't the main villain in THIS game because he has his own villanious spree in DoC.

JENOVA WASN'T CONTROLIN SEPHIROTH!!! UNDERSTAND????? HE WAS IN CONTROL OF THE STUPID DAUGHTER OF A METEOR WHO ONLY DESTROYED MOST OF THE CENTRA THEN GOT HER JUST DESERTS BY DISAPPEARIN FOR ALONG TIME! HOJO JUST MERLY EXPERIMENTED WITH HER TO SEPHIROTH AND HIMSELF. PLUS NOT TO SAY THAT KADJA OR HOW EVER YOU SPELL HIS NAME EVEN SAID THAT "It's overwelming that mother would want Sephiroth over me" OR SOMTHING LIKE THAT. ANYWAYS, THE GAME ITSELF EVEN PROVES THAT SEPHIROTH WAS IN EITHER MOST OR ALL CONTROL!!



I think that if there's a villain, that's Jenova. ShinRa at the end partly fought with Cloud's team, and Sepiroth's just gone crazy because of finding out about his origins. He was more of a person, to destroy the whole planet... while Jenova appeared long time ago and attemped herself to become a God. Sephiroth was probably helping her, because it meant destruction of the whole lot of people. Besides, he was injected with her cells, so we can't know if he was controlling her, or she was controlling him. I think it's that Jenova controlled Sephiroth.
Sephiroth was in control. think about it, growing up having supernatural powers that others don't....wouldn't you need to learn how to CONTROL them? And besides, He was apparently in control to go with Cloud to Niemble.

[Dragon Mage]

Yeah, but it's because of Jenova that all this crap happened in the first place. JENOVA IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL!!!

And check your facts, some of what you're saying isn't right.

[Cruise Control]

http://www.eyesonff.com/members/wiki/Main/TheCompletedJenovaThesis

I say Jenova.

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

I think that if there's a villain, that's Jenova. ShinRa at the end partly fought with Cloud's team, and Sepiroth's just gone crazy because of finding out about his origins. He was more of a person, to destroy the whole planet... while Jenova appeared long time ago and attemped herself to become a God. Sephiroth was probably helping her, because it meant destruction of the whole lot of people. Besides, he was injected with her cells, so we can't know if he was controlling her, or she was controlling him. I think it's that Jenova controlled Sephiroth.


Yeah, but it's because of Jenova that all this crap happened in the first place. JENOVA IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL!!!

And check your facts, some of what you're saying isn't right.

Jenova was actually only part... heck I bet Sephiroth would still be born... as Malcom from Jurrasic Park said, "Life will find a way." And Sephiroth would probably still go insane...he was still an experiment from Hojo and would probably go insane just the same..but not a powerful.

[Griff]

http://www.eyesonff.com/members/wiki/Main/TheCompletedJenovaThesis

I say Jenova.

As soon as the ultimecia guide was brought up I just knew this wouldn't be far behind. Good job.

[Woodinator]

ok...ive played through the game a couple times and i don't ever remember a reference to Sephiroth controlling Jenova....and honestly, how is a strategy guide proof, unless Square published it then no it doesn't count as proof

In my opinion Jenova is the antagonist because she is the one that almost wiped everyone out, she is the reason sephiroth went insane, the fact that he was injected with jenova cells caused him to believe that she was his mother and he was doing this stuff mainly for her, to fufull what she failed to do...and if you wish to tie in advent children into this (although i wouldnt cause i didnt really like that movie >.>) they constantly talk of "fufilling Mother's mematic (or w/e that word is) legacy" so id say Jenova is in overall control...not sephiroth

[jammi567]

Funny that you should mention that Suare made that stratagy guide...

and just because you don't like the movie doesn't mean that it should be counted.

[Griff]

Funny that you should mention that Suare made that stratagy guide...

and just because you don't like the movie doesn't mean that it should be counted.

Technically, Square didn't make the guide. A third party made it and had Square publish it because otherwise they couldn't use the name Final Fantasy...

[oddler]

Sigh... Jenova was the main villain. Sephiroth, however, is the antagonist. :rolleyes2
As far as the poll goes, they are all correct.

[Mirage]

If shinra wasn't evil, then what were they?

[silentenigma]

Jenova because she basically wanted to steal the planet from the Ancients. Also she brainwashed Sephiroth and took total control over him. Sephiroth is a puppet just like Cloud.

[Griff]

If shinra wasn't evil, then what were they?

Big Business. The next closest thing to true evil.

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

Come one people! Sephiroth is the villian..SEPHIROTH!!! Jenova was helping Sephiroth with his powers..they were his source... just like Superman and the Sun..the Sun was the source of Supermans power but was NOT the hero other wise he and the other Kryptonians couldn't do their thing. So, Jenova was was just like Sephiroth's Sun so that analogy is good right?

[Tg.cid]

In a way sephiroth but jenova and Hoja cause one him a and lucriea created sephiroth and jenova cause pretty much this game is about her crazy self
:banme :simon:

[Mirage]

If shinra wasn't evil, then what were they?

Big Business. The next closest thing to true evil.

If the owner uses his business to perform evil deeds, I would say the business is evil.

[silentenigma]

SEPHIROTH WAS IN CONTROL... A LOT OF FACT PROVE IT...EVEN THE GAME ITSELF SAYS AND PROVES IT

Enlighten Me. Give me this "evidence" from the game. THE GAME. Not any spinnoffs or guides written years later by those who barely had anything to do with the writing of the original story.

I'll be open-minded when you give me this evidence, but your excuses saying that the "the [fanboy-pleasing] ultima-omega guide said so" is not enough.


Technically, Square didn't make the guide. A third party made it and had Square publish it because otherwise they couldn't use the name Final Fantasy...

This means that a THIRD PARTY paid SQUARE-ENIX big bucks to get the "official" final fantasy name on their product. SQUARE-ENIX wouldn't care what they wrote in their strategy guide so long as it would be successful.

How "official" is the guide now?

I remember reading every story-related FAQ about FFVII before Advent Children was even in production and they all pointed to JENOVA as the driving force behind Sephiroth's evilness. These were written by very intelligent people who backed their statements by events in the GAME.


Sorry, but I don't care what you say, Sephiroth was in complete control. Heck IF Jenova had control him, then it (I say it because it is able to transform) would be saying it was Jenova in the first place. It's like a wake up call," Hello Cloud, I am Jenova in control not this weak minded pawn."


Ah, but she did. Many times. Too bad Cloud didn't smell the coffee.

And Sephiroth WAS weak-minded. Ever notice how people without Jenova in them don't go crazy? Sephiroth had Jenova in him from before birth, so he was even more suseptible to becoming Jenova's puppet.




I think the reason why Jenova was probably put in is to explainthe Sephiroth copies and why Sephiroth has those powers. so other than that, Jenova would be Insignificance.

You obviously haven't seen the videotapes of Prof. Gast talking to Ifalna at Icicle Inn. in the game. Although they are obscure, they reveal why Jenova is so damn important.

[oddler]

If shinra wasn't evil, then what were they?

I retract my statement about ShinRa. :)
My post is edited now, Mirage.


the Sun was the source of Supermans power but was NOT the hero other wise he and the other Kryptonians couldn't do their thing. So, Jenova was was just like Sephiroth's Sun so that analogy is good right?

Close but not exactly. The sun wasn't forcing Superman's actions. He wasn't driven by the sun's will. He could choose to do what he wanted. Sephiroth was forced to do as Jenova willed him.

[The Crystal]

This remember me of a time that i was arguing with Ryushikaze about who was right, him or Kitase(of SE). And i will say to everyone that think that Jenova was controlling Seph, the same thing that i said to him.
You don't know more than SE.

[silentenigma]

Well, it seems that SE changed its mind since they released the game.

[Kefka_Almighty]

Sigh... Jenova was the main villain. Sephiroth, however, is the antagonist. :rolleyes2
As far as the poll goes, they are all correct.

No, Jenova was a tool. While she was responsible for the destruction of the Cetra, she was technically killed by the remaining ones and her body used as a tool by Shinra and specifically Hojo when they found it. While Sephiroth claims what he's doing is his "mother's" will, it's really more like he came to his own conclusions after reading everything he could find in the underground library in Nibelheim and decided that the desires and goals he felt to complete were the same as what Jenova wanted, not that he himself honestly knew or was being told what they were. On top of that, Jenova was already brain dead by this point as Ryushikazu has already pointed out; she had absolutely no control over what was going on, and was merely a tool. A tool, therefore, cannot be described as the villain of the game.

That being said, I agree that Sephiroth is the antagonist in the game, but not the main villain. I personally found Hojo to be, both directly and indirectly. Much of what occurs happens because of Hojo (the use of Jenova cells, the creation of Sephiroth, the acknowledgment of Aeris by the Shinra corporation, ect.), though it could be debated whether or not all of this was purposely planned by Hojo or merely a lucky result due to his own ineptitude and desire for power. So while Sephiroth is the major threat, we could consider Hojo to be the actual villain in this story do to the fact that so many of the problems stem from his involvment.

[Dragon Mage]

Jenova was actually only part... heck I bet Sephiroth would still be born... as Malcom from Jurrasic Park said, "Life will find a way." And Sephiroth would probably still go insane...he was still an experiment from Hojo and would probably go insane just the same..but not a powerful.

It was Jenova that wiped out the Ancients. Jenova that Shira thought was and ancient and tried to make a 'clone', got psycho instead, that went on a rampage to destroy the earth. Jenova was the one that weakened the planet. Jenova is the one who started all this CRAP and it's being 'finished' 2000 years after it got to the planet. Can you not see? Don't force me to make an epic post describing Jenova and Sephiroth and what the hell's up with them. Don't. Your eyes will bleed.

[Hambone]

Well, the whole story, things revolve around CLOUD, you control CLOUD throughout most of the game. Cloud is the protagonist. Sephiroth is the antagonist because he's a poop face. Simple really.

[silentenigma]

No, Jenova was a tool. While she was responsible for the destruction of the Cetra, she was technically killed by the remaining ones and her body used as a tool by Shinra and specifically Hojo when they found it. While Sephiroth claims what he's doing is his "mother's" will, it's really more like he came to his own conclusions after reading everything he could find in the underground library in Nibelheim and decided that the desires and goals he felt to complete were the same as what Jenova wanted, not that he himself honestly knew or was being told what they were. On top of that, Jenova was already brain dead by this point as Ryushikazu has already pointed out; she had absolutely no control over what was going on, and was merely a tool. A tool, therefore, cannot be described as the villain of the game.

finally a valid arguement. I might just shut up now. Oh wait:

uh...Jenova never died. She was sealed. Then she was found by Shinra. Her head was taken by Sephiroth. Her body escaped from shinra. Jenova had the ability to live in separate pieces, but these pieces would eventually return to the head. These pieces include the body and the cells injected into humans.(Which explains why Sephiroth, who had jenova cells in him, went crazy took the head in the first place)

It is clear that Jenova has the power to manipulate those with its cells inside them. Whenever Cloud became close to Jenova (usually disguised as Sephiroth), he did some terrible things, like hand over the Black Materia, beat up Aeris, allow Aeris to be killed, you get the picture. What I don't understand about the "Sephiroth is the true villain" idea is what gave Sephiroth the ability to use this manipulation power rather than become subject to it like Cloud.

It just doesn't hold up as well.

[The Crystal]

What I don't understand about the "Sephiroth is the true villain" idea is what gave Sephiroth the ability to use this manipulation power rather than become subject to it like Cloud.

It just doesn't hold up as well.

The same thing that make his consciousnes exist in the Lifestream, without becoming part of it. The same thing that hold Holly. His powerful will.

[jammi567]

The same thing that allowed him to control Cloudduring those times you mentioned.

[Dragon Mage]

finally a valid arguement. I might just shut up now. Oh wait:

uh...Jenova never died. She was sealed. Then she was found by Shinra. Her head was taken by Sephiroth. Her body escaped from shinra. Jenova had the ability to live in separate pieces, but these pieces would eventually return to the head. These pieces include the body and the cells injected into humans.(Which explains why Sephiroth, who had jenova cells in him, went crazy took the head in the first place)

It is clear that Jenova has the power to manipulate those with its cells inside them. Whenever Cloud became close to Jenova (usually disguised as Sephiroth), he did some terrible things, like hand over the Black Materia, beat up Aeris, allow Aeris to be killed, you get the picture. What I don't understand about the "Sephiroth is the true villain" idea is what gave Sephiroth the ability to use this manipulation power rather than become subject to it like Cloud.

You've got the idea, just backwards. It was Sephiroth using Jenova's cells injected into the 'clones' to control them. This includes controlling Cloud to make him give Sephiroth the B.M. And Jenova was killed, the remaing Cetra killed it and threw the body in a chasm. Sephiroth can also control the cells of Jenova, (keep in mind that he is part of it, so to speak). So, yes Jenova looked like Sephiroth, but only because Sephiroth, who's controlling the body of Jenova, is making take that shape. Yes, Jenova did break out of the Shinra building, but it was Sephiroth making it do so. Jenova is throughly dead, but Sephiroth is controlling it.

I've practically written an essay on it, which explains more.

[jammi567]

can you put a link to this essay.

[silentenigma]

http://img46.exs.cx/img46/9754/lolz6om.jpg[/img]]-The Roles of JENOVA and Sephiroth: The Puppet Master Theorem-

The long debated matter of Final Fantasy VII: The Puppet Master Theorem; was
JENOVA or Sephiroth in control? Who was the grand manipulator, the mastermind
behind it all? I will here present the truth of the matter.

Before examining this matter, it may be best to first explain what JENOVA is
and functions as: A virus. Whatever its origins, JENOVA's behaviour 2,000
years before the main events of the game was indicative of that of a virus,
the goals of a virus being to spread and to replicate. This is exactly what
JENOVA does upon its arrival on the world of Gaia. It approaches the Cetra,
tricking them with its appearance by appearing as their dead relatives, and
then it released upon them what Ifalna referred to as "the virus." She said
that this virus drove the Cetra insane and turned them into monsters.

At face value, this may sound like an attack. But think a bit further: Ifalna
is not saying that these Cetra were being killed; rather, she is saying that
they were being TRANSFORMED. JENOVA's Cells are known to cause mutations. As
Sephiroth says at the Northern Crater, "The power to change one's looks,
voice, and words is the power of Jenova." What, then, was JENOVA releasing
upon the Cetra? Its very own Cells. It was transforming them into more of
itself. JENOVA was seeking to replicate.

We find further suggestion of this concept in the official Final Fantasy VII
novel, "On the Way to a Smile," written by Kazushige Nojima, which serves to
bridge the two-year gap between the events of Final Fantasy VII and those of
Advent Children. In this story, Denzel tells Reeve that those people INFECTED
(note the terminology) with JENOVA's Cells that were spread by the Lifestream
flowing across Midgar were discharging a black pus through the pores of their
bodies. With this in mind, recall that the malady known as "Geostigma" is
revealed in the film to be the result of the body overworking itself in an
effort to rid itself of JENOVA's Cells. When JENOVA's Cells entered people, at
first they would discharge this black pus, as this is the body's natural
reaction to an intrusion by viruses: One's natural immune system involuntarily
rushes white blood cells to the location of an infectious substance within
one's body in an attempt to contain it and then discharge it from the body.
That's exactly what was happening with those infected by JENOVA's Cells.
However, the virus was too strong to be removed as simply as random bacteria
would be.

With that touched upon, I will now move on to the events of the game itself.
I would argue that the acts of murdering President Shinra, much of the Shin-Ra
personnel in the Shin-Ra headquarters, and Aerith were Sephiroth's, being
committed while he carried out the new JENOVA's will: His own will. Sephiroth
was essentially the ebmodiment of JENOVA in a native of the Planet of Gaia,
while still retaining his own individuality. JENOVA's will was never so much
that of consciously perceiving thought processes, but, rather, that of an
instinctual beast, a virus seeking to perform one function: To make more of
itself.

What became Sephiroth's intent was JENOVA's will all along, though in a
completely different context. JENOVA Cells had been injected into the womb of
Lucrecia, Sephiroth's mother, when Sephiroth was still a developing fetus, and
there the Cells melded with his body as it developed, becoming one with every
aspect of his body as it developed into its normal infant form. In some
respects, one could argue that Sephiroth was essentially an extension of
JENOVA, or, perhaps, an evolved form of the creature, existing as a hyrbid of
it and Gaia's Homo Sapiens.

It has been argued by many that Sephiroth was controlling JENOVA, and it has
also been argued that JENOVA was outright controlling Sephiroth, yet I have
come to conclude that what we witness throughout the game was simply
Sephiroth's natural growth into that which he always was: The new JENOVA. One
might even say he was a mutation of the virus that JENOVA was.

Once Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream with JENOVA's head, his life changed.
The knowledge of the Lifestream would have become privy to him. Sephiroth
would have come to learn just what JENOVA was, and just who he was. Sephiroth
then simply desired to assume the role of that which he now was: A virus. He
wanted to become everything. He wanted the world to be his. He wanted
everything to be part of himself, just as he and JENOVA were part of one
another. He wanted to shape the future in his own image, living now as the
JENOVA virus with the mind and emotions he had as a consciously perceiving
human being:

(Inside the Temple of the Ancients, and Out)
Sephiroth
"I am becoming one with the Planet."

Tseng
"One with the Planet?"

Sephiroth
"You stupid fools. You have never even thought about it."
"All the spirit energy of this Planet. All its wisdom...
knowledge..."
"I will meld with it all. I will become one with it... It will
become one with me."

...

Aerith
"How do you intend to become one with the Planet?"

Sephiroth
"It's simple."
"Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to heal the
injury."

Sephiroth
"The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the injury."

Sephiroth
"...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the
very life of the Planet?"
"Think how much energy would be gathered!"

Sephiroth
"Ha ha ha. And at the center of that injury, will be me."
"All that boundless energy will be mine."

Sephiroth
"By merging with all the energy of the Planet, I will become a
new life forn, a new existence."
"Melding with the Planet... I will cease to exist as I am now."
"Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every soul."

...

Sephiroth
"I'm far superior to the Ancients."
"I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients."
"I also gained the knowledge and wisdom of those after the extinction
of the Ancients."
"And soon, I will create the future."


As can be seen here, Sephiroth desired to become one with everything else. He
desired to make everything be a part of him. He desired to replicate.
Sephiroth's growth was essentially that of introducing conscious perception to
a viral entity that "thought" based on instinct.

Sephiroth's goal is further supported by the game's CGI film sequel, Final
Fantasy VII: Advent Children. During the film, after Sephiroth has been reborn
due to JENOVA's Cells that were in Rufus Shinra's possession merging with
Kadaj, he tells Cloud that his goal is to use Gaia itself as a vessel to sail
the cosmos until he can find another Planet, one which has not yet been
"corrupted" by the presence of Homo Sapiens. He then intends to make this
world be his new "paradise."

In summary, I would describe the matter of JENOVA and Sephiroth as an
evolution in which JENOVA's instincts became part of the will within a
human being that could be regarded as JENOVA's evolved offspring: Sephiroth.
On the whole, the plot that unveiled was formed of a symbiotic existance,
perhaps even a fusion, between JENOVA and its Gaian
embodiment/mutation/evolution, Sephiroth.

Does this mean that Sephiroth really is the Puppet Master of Final Fantasy
VII? Yes. JENOVA's instincts play out through Sephiroth, however, it was not
consciously manipulating or controlling him into doing anything, nor was he
technically controlling it. He WAS JENOVA, or, rather, it's evolved form.
There was not any puppeteering going on except that which was exerted over
Cloud and the black-cloaked Clones from Nibelheim. There was just growth.
Sephiroth could control all of JENOVA's Cells that were disembodied and could
manipulate those in whom they were injected, but he was not controlling JENOVA
because the JENOVA that the Cetra had known no longer existed and all that
remained was him. He simply grew as a mutation of JENOVA.

An argument that JENOVA controlled Sephiroth rather simply falls apart, as
it's made obvious in both Final Fantasy VII (the original game) and Advent
Children that Sephiroth's own will was being exerted. In Final Fantasy VII,
Sephiroth's utmost enmity toward Cloud and consistent mental torture of the
protagonist displays that Sephiroth himself was certainly very much aware and
active, as JENOVA would have no cause to render such agony unto Cloud, whereas
Sephiroth, one who was filled with pride -- pride that had been hurt when
Cloud overpowered him five years earlier -- would. Further still, he speaks of
JENOVA in the third-person. This continues into Advent Children, when he
speaks of sailing the cosmos "As Mother did before me."

...

In conclusion, my determination is that there was no issue of control in the
first place, as Sephiroth WAS JENOVA, but an evolved -- or, rather, mutated --
form of an instinctual, viral creature that didn't operate on the higher level
of consciousness that Homo Sapiens -- consciously perceiving beings -- do. In
fact, Square-Enix's Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega Guide, published in
September of 2005, confirms this, stating that Sephiroth, with his higher
level of consciousness, assumed rulership over JENOVA's Cells.

So I guess we're all wrong. Heh. Squall of SeeD, ladies and gentlemen.

[Moon Rabbits]

JENOVA. Just because she' badass.

[jammi567]

Yep, he is rather good in his theories. of course, because this is the vii board, that won't get deleted, unlike on the ix board.

[silentenigma]

What, do they not like him up there?

[Dragon Mage]

can you put a link to this essay. I can do better.

Jenova is an alien, a viral life-form, that can take any shape it wants. Jenova is no specific 'he' or 'she' but rather Jenova is most firmly an 'it'. The alien being, never before encountered, has powers that aren't human, of which I'll come back to later. A notable aspect of Jenova is that if any cells are separated from the main mass will eventually come back to the body. Whereas humans freely shed millions of skin cells by rubbing an eyelid, Jenova does no such thing. Quite a curiosity. It also has complete control over every individula cell, thus why all the cells eventually come back together when seperated-Jenova is actually pulling itself back together again. Jenova is also a very resilient creature, one that, for some reason, can survive the absolute zero temperature of outer space, possibly by using the aformentioned powers.

Next, Jenova came here via space travel. However it skipped the expected space-ship arrival and came to the planet without anything else than itself. Interesting in the least. The northern crater in the game is actually the landing site of Jenova's arrival. Any references to this reasoning is quite vague. It's unsure as to exactly why Jenova came here, but the intention was not peaceful in the least. When it came here, it took the shape of the the indeginous species and played the part of a benevolent being for a time. Eventually it started to act, and showed the people specters of lost loved ones, displaying it's supposed power over the dead. In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives memories immersed within the lifestream. Using the knowledge, it created illusions, weaking the moral and confusing the populace. Then it began to spread a virus amongst the humans, who at that time were called the Cetra. It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7:AC, then this would be known as Geostigma. This virus killed nearly all the Cetra, the guardians and people of the planet, in the most literal sense. With the planet defenseless, and weakend by the crater, Jenova could now take over the planet for whatever purposes it had in mind. However, the remaining Cetra managed to kill Jenova. However, the Cetra race was all but extinct, and it never grew back to it's former numbers. At the same time the planet was creating a defense for itself, the Weapons, but the Cetra managed to kill Jenova before the Weapons were ever released.

Jenova was dumped back in the crater, or possibly some chasm, where it lay, dormant, for 2,000 years. Then, some archeologists found it in a dig. Mistaken to be one of the members of the lost Cetra race, the powerful company, Shin Ra, sought to use it's DNA to fashion a living Cetra, to an extent, with the Cetra's powers of finding the Promised Land. The Promised Land was of great interest for it was thought that Mako would be abundant there. To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability. It didn't work, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two speices together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.

The rest you undoubtedly know, yet I'll do a quick run-through for topics' sake. Sephiroth did not turn out as they expected, still ignorant of the fact that Jenova was not an Ancient/Cetra. When Sephiroth found out that Shin Ra was creating monsters using humans, he snapped, finding out that he was created in a similar way, by the fact that his mother's name and the monsters name in the room of the reactor were the same. The documents in the Shin Ra basement confirmed this. Then Sephiroth went truly mad, horrified and angered that he was the 'rightful heir' to the planet and that these 'weaklings' had done so much harm to his mother and himself.

Now, since Jenova was dead, it had no way of ever controlling it's body, obviously. But Sephiroth, who was half-Jenova, if you will, could manipulate the cells of Jenova's body, a trademark of the spieces it seems. So in all the times you see Jenova it is not really Jenova--it's Sephiroth controlling Jenova's cells. A madman fighting with the puppet of his 'mother's' dead body--which brings up the puppet question, but that's another story for another time.

As Sephiroth has control over all Jenova cells, that also means that he has control of the cells that have been injected into countless, SOLDIER's, clones, and human experiments. Now this is where Cloud comes in. As he was also experimented on, Jenova cells were also injected into him as well. Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells to his advantage, mainly in the memory part of the brain. Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong. However, the Mako-immersion process that accompanies the injection of Jenova cells on the experiments has a dramatic effect. The Mako--lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news--for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind, and if that person, like Cloud, wasn't particularly fond of their life, it would be easy to get lost in the flood of memories and literally lose ones own identity. This is what happend to all the previous Sephiroth clones. However, Cloud, in some fashion, it is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past. The two do not mix together very well, and I often refer to this confused Cloud as Zoud (it was better than 'Clack') to keep them straight. I could go on but that's going far off topic and I belive I'll leave it at that.

[silentenigma]

Jenova is an alien, a viral life-form, that can take any shape it wants. Jenova is no specific 'he' or 'she' but rather Jenova is most firmly an 'it'. The alien being, never before encountered, has powers that aren't human, of which I'll come back to later. A notable aspect of Jenova is that if any cells are separated from the main mass will eventually come back to the body. Whereas humans freely shed millions of skin cells by rubbing an eyelid, Jenova does no such thing. Quite a curiosity. It also has complete control over every individula cell, thus why all the cells eventually come back together when seperated-Jenova is actually pulling itself back together again. Jenova is also a very resilient creature, one that, for some reason, can survive the absolute zero temperature of outer space, possibly by using the aformentioned powers.

Next, Jenova came here via space travel. However it skipped the expected space-ship arrival and came to the planet without anything else than itself. Interesting in the least. The northern crater in the game is actually the landing site of Jenova's arrival. Any references to this reasoning is quite vague. It's unsure as to exactly why Jenova came here, but the intention was not peaceful in the least. When it came here, it took the shape of the the indeginous species and played the part of a benevolent being for a time. Eventually it started to act, and showed the people specters of lost loved ones, displaying it's supposed power over the dead. In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives memories immersed within the lifestream. Using the knowledge, it created illusions, weaking the moral and confusing the populace. Then it began to spread a virus amongst the humans, who at that time were called the Cetra. It could have done this easily by spreading it's own cells throughout the lifestream and then making it's own cells attack the host. If you've seen FF7:AC, then this would be known as Geostigma. This virus killed nearly all the Cetra, the guardians and people of the planet, in the most literal sense. With the planet defenseless, and weakend by the crater, Jenova could now take over the planet for whatever purposes it had in mind. However, the remaining Cetra managed to kill Jenova. However, the Cetra race was all but extinct, and it never grew back to it's former numbers. At the same time the planet was creating a defense for itself, the Weapons, but the Cetra managed to kill Jenova before the Weapons were ever released.

Jenova was dumped back in the crater, or possibly some chasm, where it lay, dormant, for 2,000 years. Then, some archeologists found it in a dig. Mistaken to be one of the members of the lost Cetra race, the powerful company, Shin Ra, sought to use it's DNA to fashion a living Cetra, to an extent, with the Cetra's powers of finding the Promised Land. The Promised Land was of great interest for it was thought that Mako would be abundant there. To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability. It didn't work, so an unborn infant was directly injected with Jenova cells, to work in the alien cells with human DNA--truly fusing the two speices together. This is the creation of Sephiroth.

The rest you undoubtedly know, yet I'll do a quick run-through for topics' sake. Sephiroth did not turn out as they expected, still ignorant of the fact that Jenova was not an Ancient/Cetra. When Sephiroth found out that Shin Ra was creating monsters using humans, he snapped, finding out that he was created in a similar way, by the fact that his mother's name and the monsters name in the room of the reactor were the same. The documents in the Shin Ra basement confirmed this. Then Sephiroth went truly mad, horrified and angered that he was the 'rightful heir' to the planet and that these 'weaklings' had done so much harm to his mother and himself.

Now, since Jenova was dead, it had no way of ever controlling it's body, obviously. But Sephiroth, who was half-Jenova, if you will, could manipulate the cells of Jenova's body, a trademark of the spieces it seems. So in all the times you see Jenova it is not really Jenova--it's Sephiroth controlling Jenova's cells. A madman fighting with the puppet of his 'mother's' dead body--which brings up the puppet question, but that's another story for another time.

As Sephiroth has control over all Jenova cells, that also means that he has control of the cells that have been injected into countless, SOLDIER's, clones, and human experiments. Now this is where Cloud comes in. As he was also experimented on, Jenova cells were also injected into him as well. Sephiroth was able to manipulate the cells to his advantage, mainly in the memory part of the brain. Now, I'll get back to the power of Jenova. These cells have an adverse affect on human cells, changing normal human cells into something more like Jenova cells. This grants humans some limited powers of Jenova, thus the reason for flying, walking on ceilings, and being unnaturally strong. However, the Mako-immersion process that accompanies the injection of Jenova cells on the experiments has a dramatic effect. The Mako--lifestream--is filled with the memories of the lives of people long dead, as it is the very spirit energy of hundreds of former lives, and is being recycled over and over. When immersed in Mako that spells bad news--for thousands of memories of unknown lives is forced into a person's mind, and if that person, like Cloud, wasn't particularly fond of their life, it would be easy to get lost in the flood of memories and literally lose ones own identity. This is what happend to all the previous Sephiroth clones. However, Cloud, in some fashion, it is never really explained, manages to get hold of the identity of his deceased friend Zack, and thus thinks he is Zack but with his own past. The two do not mix together very well, and I often refer to this confused Cloud as Zoud (it was better than 'Clack') to keep them straight. I could go on but that's going far off topic and I belive I'll leave it at that.

false. To say that Sephiroth turned out the way he did because of the Jenova in him but he, the human part of him, was in total control of his own thoughts and actions, is insane. SOS=Truth.

[Dragon Mage]

false. To say that Sephiroth turned out the way he did because of the Jenova in him but to say that he, the human part of him, was in total control of his own thoughts and actions is insane.

Clarify. He is part-Jenova. He shares it's DNA. But he is part human. To say that the two are seperate within him is insane.

[silentenigma]

false. To say that Sephiroth turned out the way he did because of the Jenova in him but to say that he, the human part of him, was in total control of his own thoughts and actions is insane.

Clarify. He is part-Jenova. He shares it's DNA. But he is part human. To say that the two are seperate within him is insane.

Then you're saying the same thing as what Squall of SeeD wrote, just tacking on a "but it was really Sephiroth" on the end.

The arguement is now rendered useless as both sides of the argument have established that Sephiroth's will is an independent successor to Jenova's will.

[Dragon Mage]

Then you're saying the same thing as what Squall of SeeD wrote, just tacking on a "but it was really Sephiroth" on the end.

Just what the fug are you talking about? The whole point of that thing was to sort out how Sephiroth managed to do all the crap that he did. I never said it was Jenova in control. I never said that it was Jenova that made him go insane. Just what the hell are you complaining about?

[The Crystal]

Dragon Mage, the UOG don't explain how Jenova spread the virus, and Geostigma never existed before AC. It was created only after Jenova's defeat in the NC.

[Dragon Mage]

Haven't we been over this? I said that it worked like Geostigma, I never said that it WAS Geostigma. and your guide can stuff it.

[oddler]

http://img46.exs.cx/img46/9754/lolz6om.jpg[/img]]-The Roles of JENOVA and Sephiroth: The Puppet Master Theorem-

So I guess we're all wrong. Heh. Squall of SeeD, ladies and gentlemen.

I'm going to have to agree with that. Bravo.

To answer the question in the poll, the evil villain in the game would be Sephiroth. :up:

[The Crystal]

Haven't we been over this?

No.


I said that it worked like Geostigma, I never said that it WAS Geostigma.

You said that it spreaded in the Lifestream. If the UOG don't mention this, how you know? And if it spreaded in the Lifestram, why Sephiroth didn't use it in FFVII?


and your guide can stuff it.

"My" guide is the official word of SE.

[jammi567]

What, do they not like him up there?
apparently, they just purely want stuf from the game, not some 'random' theories that one bloke made.

[Dragon Mage]

Haven't we been over this?

No.


I said that it worked like Geostigma, I never said that it WAS Geostigma.

You said that it spreaded in the Lifestream. If the UOG don't mention this, how you know? And if it spreaded in the Lifestram, why Sephiroth didn't use it in FFVII?


and your guide can stuff it.

"My" guide is the official word of SE.

Well, we did. I explained it and now your annoying me.

And does all your knowledge come from your guide? Just because the guide doesn't say this does it make it automatically wrong? Does it say that it is wrong? No? Well then what's the problem?


My" guide is the official word of SE
And, in the words of this thread, PROVE IT!!!

[silentenigma]

Let me fix this. In case nobody has noticed, I have not been trying to argue ever since I stumbled apon Squall of SeeD's FAQ, which consequently says that although Sephiroth is in control, his will is influenced by Jenova's instincts as well as his own.


Did we all establish that JENOVA has a will which is integrated into its cells/DNA?

Did we all establish that so long as there are active JENOVA cells/DNA, then JENOVA (will and all) is technically alive (Sephiroth being the entity which keeps the head active and controls it)?

Did we all establish that Sephiroth was part human, part JENOVA (contained both human and JENOVA cells/DNA)?

Did we all establish that Squall of Seed's theses are extremely accurate?

If anyone hasn't read SoS's Puppet Master thesis, please take a minute and do so.

[jammi567]

Although i believe that he says makes the most ense, other people won't because it's not official

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

all I'm trying to say is that Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova's will and made it leave ShinRa building. Just like, IF Jenova was in control, then why did it change into Sephiroth when it would know by the original Sephiroth that he was thought dead by Cloud? It would be pointless to change into someone who is thought dead. Plus, Cloud himself says that only one PERSON had that srong of a WILL, and that it was Sephiroth!

[The Crystal]

Well, we did. I explained it and now your annoying me.

I don't remember, sorry. And because i said that you was wrong in one thing in a post, you are already annoyed?! You become annoyed very easily.


And does all your knowledge come from your guide? Just because the guide doesn't say this does it make it automatically wrong? Does it say that it is wrong? No? Well then what's the problem?

I have the same question. What is the problem? Why are you so annoyed with me? And about my knowledge, no, it don't come from only the UOG but from many places.
And i'm questioning you in what you said, because if Jenova spreaded her cells in the Lifestream during the "war" against the Cetra, why Sephiroth didn't use the Jenova cells in it to create Geostigma during FFVII? Why he did that only in AC? What are you saying don't make any sense, and if you want us to belive in you, PROVE IT!!!


And, in the words of this thread, PROVE IT!!!

I have to prove that the UOG exist?! Okay, here is your prove:

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html

[silentenigma]

Does this mean that Sephiroth really is the Puppet Master of Final Fantasy
VII? Yes. JENOVA's instincts play out through Sephiroth, however, it was not
consciously manipulating or controlling him into doing anything, nor was he
technically controlling it.

I thought this was a good comprimise.

[jammi567]

all I'm trying to say is that Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova's will and made it leave ShinRa building. Just like, IF Jenova was in control, then why did it change into Sephiroth when it would know by the original Sephiroth that he was thought dead by Cloud? It would be pointless to change into someone who is thought dead. Plus, Cloud himself says that only one PERSON had that srong of a WILL, and that it was Sephiroth!
yes, guessed that you believed that much, but other people won't, because it's still technically 'speculation'

[The Crystal]

I found other wrong things in your post Dragon Mage.


It's unsure as to exactly why Jenova came here, but the intention was not peaceful in the least. When it came here, it took the shape of the the indeginous species and played the part of a benevolent being for a time. Eventually it started to act, and showed the people specters of lost loved ones, displaying it's supposed power over the dead. In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives memories immersed within the lifestream.

No, it wasn't.


*Jenova's mimic ability*
Jenova has a mimic ability which allows it to read the memories and feelings of others, then adjust its appearance, speech and behaviour accordingly to immitate what it has seen. Jenova once used this ability to get close to the Ancients and infect them with its virus, which killed many of them.

See? Nothing to do with the Lifestream.



To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability.

This is not completely right.


*The product of the project: Sephiroth*
While in Lucrecia's womb, Jenova's cells became part of Sephiroth's growth. While he's the biological son of Hojo and Lucrecia, with regards to his role in the project as an unnatural product of "Jenova of the Ancients," one could say that he is "the son of Jenova." Simultaneously, he was the first to have the role of a SOLDIER (-->P.217). However, mass production of SOLDIERs required adults of sound mind and body who could be injected with Jenova's cells and exposed to mako, as this simplification of the process used on Sephiroth would result in vast differences from how their bodies had been before.


Now, since Jenova was dead, it had no way of ever controlling it's body, obviously. But Sephiroth, who was half-Jenova, if you will, could manipulate the cells of Jenova's body, a trademark of the spieces it seems. So in all the times you see Jenova it is not really Jenova--it's Sephiroth controlling Jenova's cells. A madman fighting with the puppet of his 'mother's' dead body--which brings up the puppet question, but that's another story for another time.

Jenova wasn't dead during FFVII.


*Professor Gast and the Jenova Project*
Approximately 2000 years ago, Jenova collided with the Planet, and although the Ancients were nearly reduced to extinction, some Ancient survivors managed to seal Jenova underground in a deep sleep. However, Jenova would awaken because of Gast's guidance of Shin-Ra's Science Department.

Jenova was brain-dead, not completelly dead. This is proved by the fact that you fight against it, four times in the game. In FFVII Jenova was pure instinct and wasn't cunning anymore(like in the time of the Cetra), but that doesn't mean that it was completely dead.



If you feel annoyed by what i'm saying, this is your problem. I just don't like people spreading misinformation. You have the right to have your own opinion, but your opinions aren't facts.

[Woodinator]

Ok im reading this and some of you are stating that Jenova took the form of Sephiroth and was the one we saw frollicking about the world...when I played the game i didn't take it as that but figured it was Sephiroth using some power of sorts to project his image...maybe manipulating the lifestream in some way idk....but I never caught a hint saying Jenova's will did this....(I apoligize if it was proven in the essays...im just not in the mood to read long things after re-reading pride and prejudice for school ><)

[jammi567]

It's proved in the above post how Sephiroph was controlling Jenova.

[NeoCracker]

What we are getting is this argument out of official words.

You are using a translated version from some random guy. Unless you yourself can properly translate Japanese, there is no way of knowing if its even true or not, and if you can do it yourself you would need to prove it. While I'm not saying that this guide is wrong, there is no proof it's a proper translation. He could very easily of skewed or mistranslated certain things.

SoS's theory, while not being Cannon or official, at least uses evidence to prove its point. So while I won't accept it as fact, I'm willing to hold it in higher regard than that online translation.

In addition, assuming its true. What do you say about the evidence showing Jenova was in control that the guide does not refute? These are called Plot holes. I haven' t read that whole Guide yet, but I hear of problems with it from others. And the evidence they present often times has never been refuted. This seems to create a lot of plot holes if Sephiroth is really in control.

Also, as stated, it wasn't square who made the guide. Assuming this is true, even a direct and proper translation can hardly be taken as good enough evidence.

Quite frankly, the fact that so many different possobilities for any argument of the real villain in this game is rather sad. If so many things seem so easily possible, it makes the story seem to weak to be enjoyed.

[The Crystal]

What we are getting is this argument out of official words.

You are using a translated version from some random guy. Unless you yourself can properly translate Japanese, there is no way of knowing if its even true or not, and if you can do it yourself you would need to prove it. While I'm not saying that this guide is wrong, there is no proof it's a proper translation. He could very easily of skewed or mistranslated certain things.

SoS's theory, while not being Cannon or official, at least uses evidence to prove its point. So while I won't accept it as fact, I'm willing to hold it in higher regard than that online translation.

In addition, assuming its true. What do you say about the evidence showing Jenova was in control that the guide does not refute? These are called Plot holes. I haven' t read that whole Guide yet, but I hear of problems with it from others. And the evidence they present often times has never been refuted. This seems to create a lot of plot holes if Sephiroth is really in control.

Also, as stated, it wasn't square who made the guide. Assuming this is true, even a direct and proper translation can hardly be taken as good enough evidence.

Quite frankly, the fact that so many different possobilities for any argument of the real villain in this game is rather sad. If so many things seem so easily possible, it makes the story seem to weak to be enjoyed.

I don't know if it was directly created by SE or not, but even if it wasn't, SE published it in their name, and now is official.

And if i'm not wrong, this is the only translation of the UOG in the internet. We don't have other translation to compare with, meaning that this translation is correct, until someone prove the contrary with a better one.

And about SoS theory, maybe it have more sense(i didn't read it), but is useless compared with the UOG. You said that "What do you say about the evidence showing Jenova was in control that the guide does not refute?", but you have to remember that SE don't need to prove anything. If they say that Sephiroth was in controll, is because he was, the end. FFVII is their story, and they can do whatever they want with it. Their word about FF is the law, because they created the series. They know more about their work than us.

[f f freak]

We don't have other translation to compare with, meaning that this translation is the best we have but we can't be sure if it is correct
I fixed it for you

[NeoCracker]

I'm not that the UMG is going to be wrong. I'm saying that if its not consistant with various things in the story, it creates plot holes, things that don't ad up. I'm not a guy whose just going to ignore large numbers of plot holes. If you are, good for you.

And assuming the only one is correct is just plain silly, as is talking it as Squares official word. Its stupid to blindly trust some random dude who translated it and put it up on IGN. There is nothing official about that online translation.

[jammi567]

So basically, nothing translated from another language is official? that's just being fu*king stupid.

[The Crystal]

I'm not that the UMG is going to be wrong. I'm saying that if its not consistant with various things in the story, it creates plot holes, things that don't ad up. I'm not a guy whose just going to ignore large numbers of plot holes. If you are, good for you.

Well, don't exist anyone completely perfect. SE is made of people, and they make mistakes some times, like any human. FFVII have some plot holes like many other games/movies/books, and we have just to accept it.


And assuming the only one is correct is just plain silly, as is talking it as Squares official word. Its stupid to blindly trust some random dude who translated it and put it up on IGN. There is nothing official about that online translation.

What he said is truth, because it isn't his word, is SE word. If you want to prove that "he" is wrong, instead of using events in the game to explain your theory/opinion, you have to translate the UOG and prove that what he said is wrong. Because if you cannot translate it, how you can say that his translation is wrong? How you know?
No offense dude, but the word of a guy that translated the official guide of a game, is more valid than the word of a guy that is trying to prove something about the same game using only his opinions.

[G3ORGE]

Dont forget Jenova could still be around..Barely but like in a lil jar somwhere and come back and do more evil lol.

[f f freak]

What he said is truth, because it isn't his word, is SE word
Wrong. You don't know it's true. It is his word unless it was translated by someone at SE.

Because if you cannot translate it, how you can say that his translation is wrong? How you know?
And if you cannot translate it how do you know his translation is right? Well?

[jammi567]

What he said is truth, because it isn't his word, is SE word
Wrong. You don't know it's true. It is his word unless it was translated by someone at SE.

Because if you cannot translate it, how you can say that his translation is wrong? How you know?
And if you cannot translate it how do you know his translation is right? Well?
1) he's hardly going to be lying about what it says in theguide when he's publishing it to a general audiance, is he.

2) the point is, you'll have to learn something called trust, otherwise, there's no point having this convosation.

[The Crystal]

Wrong. You don't know it's true. It is his word unless it was translated by someone at SE.

"He's hardly going to be lying about what it says in the guide when he's publishing it to a general audiance." Even because another person that know japanese could translate the guide and prove that he is wrong, and he would lose all his credibility, people would hate him, etc.


And if you cannot translate it how do you know his translation is right? Well?

Because he know Japanese, and because he wouldn't have any reason to lie to all the internet. Basically what you are saying, is that any source of information(books, movies, etc) translated and published by someone that don't work for the creators of the same source, is not valid as a prove, just because YOU cannot translate it and prove that is wrong(or right). MANY people already readed the guide(some of them know japanese), and no one complained about his translations yet. They even use his translation as evidence in MANY diferent forums in the internet. People in all the world belive(and know) that he is right. Is your word against the words of millions of people(some of them know japanese) and if you still think that his translation is wrong, "Prove it!!!".

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

If shinra wasn't evil, then what were they?

I retract my statement about ShinRa. :)
My post is edited now, Mirage.


the Sun was the source of Supermans power but was NOT the hero other wise he and the other Kryptonians couldn't do their thing. So, Jenova was was just like Sephiroth's Sun so that analogy is good right?

Close but not exactly. The sun wasn't forcing Superman's actions. He wasn't driven by the sun's will. He could choose to do what he wanted. Sephiroth was forced to do as Jenova willed him.

no he wasn't forced to do anything.
WOOOOOOOW this is a long argument...I kinda smirk to see this kinda thing...people versus each other, trying to prove lies and truth...lol....this is what I like...TOTAL CHAOS!!!!! Fuwhahahahahahaha

[Dragon Mage]

I don't remember, sorry. And because i said that you was wrong in one thing in a post, you are already annoyed?! You become annoyed very easily.

I was having a bad day. And you attacked my post when we've gone over it all before. I don't like to repeat myself.


And i'm questioning you in what you said, because if Jenova spreaded her cells in the Lifestream during the "war" against the Cetra, why Sephiroth didn't use the Jenova cells in it to create Geostigma during FFVII? Why he did that only in AC? What are you saying don't make any sense, and if you want us to belive in you, PROVE IT!!!

Because Sephiroth isn't completely Jenova, now is he? He has limits with what he can do with his own cells. Even in AC it was Jenova's cells, not his, that were infecting people. He'd find it hard to 'spread' himself out through the lifestream and still stay intact. That's why.


I have to prove that the UOG exist?! Okay, here is your prove:


I was being sarcastic. dur.


I found other wrong things in your post Dragon Mage.


It's unsure as to exactly why Jenova came here, but the intention was not peaceful in the least. When it came here, it took the shape of the the indeginous species and played the part of a benevolent being for a time. Eventually it started to act, and showed the people specters of lost loved ones, displaying it's supposed power over the dead. In reality, it was manipulating the knowledge of previous lives memories immersed within the lifestream.

No, it wasn't.


*Jenova's mimic ability*
Jenova has a mimic ability which allows it to read the memories and feelings of others, then adjust its appearance, speech and behaviour accordingly to immitate what it has seen. Jenova once used this ability to get close to the Ancients and infect them with its virus, which killed many of them.

See? Nothing to do with the Lifestream.

So it's psionic instead? That's all you had to say, is that it's psionic. But is there any evidence of these psionic abilities displayed in the game? No. I'm not saying that your guide is wrong; I'm just saying it's laking evidence of it's own.



To do this, they first injected members of SOLDIER with Jenova cells, not only to see what effect it would have, but to get the Promised Land sensing ability.

This is not completely right.


*The product of the project: Sephiroth*
While in Lucrecia's womb, Jenova's cells became part of Sephiroth's growth. While he's the biological son of Hojo and Lucrecia, with regards to his role in the project as an unnatural product of "Jenova of the Ancients," one could say that he is "the son of Jenova." Simultaneously, he was the first to have the role of a SOLDIER (-->P.217). However, mass production of SOLDIERs required adults of sound mind and body who could be injected with Jenova's cells and exposed to mako, as this simplification of the process used on Sephiroth would result in vast differences from how their bodies had been before.

Hm. Interesting. Your quote from this guide says nothing at all as to why they did this to the would-be SOLDIERS. I did. That's the only difference. Other than that, what I said and what the guide said is the same. Your argument would be...?



Now, since Jenova was dead, it had no way of ever controlling it's body, obviously. But Sephiroth, who was half-Jenova, if you will, could manipulate the cells of Jenova's body, a trademark of the spieces it seems. So in all the times you see Jenova it is not really Jenova--it's Sephiroth controlling Jenova's cells. A madman fighting with the puppet of his 'mother's' dead body--which brings up the puppet question, but that's another story for another time.

Jenova wasn't dead during FFVII.


*Professor Gast and the Jenova Project*
Approximately 2000 years ago, Jenova collided with the Planet, and although the Ancients were nearly reduced to extinction, some Ancient survivors managed to seal Jenova underground in a deep sleep. However, Jenova would awaken because of Gast's guidance of Shin-Ra's Science Department.

Jenova was brain-dead, not completelly dead. This is proved by the fact that you fight against it, four times in the game. In FFVII Jenova was pure instinct and wasn't cunning anymore(like in the time of the Cetra), but that doesn't mean that it was completely dead.

Ah ha. So, a powerful, near immortal being such as Jenova, would bow to the whim of a bastard half-breed madman? Wow.

And just what is the difference between brain-dead and plain ol' dead? Technically, they're the same. With the only difference being that 'brain-dead' is a living body lacking a mind. Either way, Jenova is incapable of movement or even thinking for its self. It can be controlled and it wouldn't even know it. Because there is no mind, no conscience. See? And like I said before, It was Sephiroth controlling Jenova's body when you fight it in the game. Jenova wasn't home. Sephiroth controlled it's body to fight you in the game. Just because it's fighting doesn't mean it's alive.


If you feel annoyed by what i'm saying, this is your problem. I just don't like people spreading misinformation. You have the right to have your own opinion, but your opinions aren't facts.

I never said that my opinions are facts. But my 'opinions' are all based on what is revealed to you in the game, and are accurate. It isn't 'misinformation'. It's an explaination of certain aspects in the game as shown to you in the game. So leave off it, you snowcone.

[The Crystal]

Dragon Mage, my intention wasn't to attack your post. I just wanted to help you by correcting a little mistake about something you said. But you saw that as an "attack", probably because of your bad day.

And it seems that like f f freak, you don't belive in what the UOG say. Well, this is your choice. BUT anytime that you(or anyone else) post something that i think is wrong, i will correct you/him/her(like i know that you will correct me too in other things that you will not agree) because i belive in the UOG, and anything that is "against" it, is wrong, because the guide is the official word of SE.
The fans don't know more than SE. But this is something that some people still don't understand. So, if i try to correct you in the future, don't be offended, because is nothing personal. I just don't like seeing people spreading misinformation, and anything contrary to what SE say, is misinformation.

[Dragon Mage]

It's all cool. It just bothered me when you simply said that I was wrong according to the guide (when I was really saying the same thing) without providing any explaination. I don't really see where you're coming from because I'm basically saying the same thing that the guide is, just differently. It really ticked me off. If what I said didn't exactly agree with the guide, you jumped on.
And it isn't that I don't believe this guide, I've just never heard of it before. Besides, I don't think anyone will ever understand this world of FF7. Not even the man who made it really understands it.

[NeoCracker]

First, its not wrong because it was translated from another language. People claiming this is the official word of Square is annoying when I have yet to find Square commenting on this translation anywhere. Never once did I say it was wrong, nor did I say you shouldn't use it. I said it is hardly the official word of Square. The REal Ultimania Guide is, without question. The online translation in another story.

Most likely its true, which bothers me as the Idea of Sephiroth being in control just makes the story rather weak to me. I know he was probably the villain, but it doesn't mean I'll take that online Guide as official by any means.

[Aerisfanatic]

Kotch, that minion of Corneo. He was a pretty bad dude. He tried to rape Cloud while he was dressed as a lady!

Topic creator, may I add Kotch to the poll? I know I could vote for other, but I really feel Kotch deserves a category of his own.

That is IF you didn't do everything right. But I'm serious. What chararacter was the main villian?


Hojo :p
He did seem to cause everything though, he created Sephiroth,wanted Aeris, and experimented with Jenova cells.


PS- The poll says villain so not other.

What I mean is if you think there is a bad guy out there for you to put other and say who. Oh, to let you know, Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova, so when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells..he was slowly being subjected to Sephiroth's will, and he didn't create Sephiroth either nor did he want Aeirth..just to mate RedXIII and her together is all.

Hey, next time you have something to add to your post, use the edit button please! -kikimm actually in the ff7 series hojo was proven to be his father and lucrecia as his mother

[OneWingedAngelSephiroth91]

Kotch, that minion of Corneo. He was a pretty bad dude. He tried to rape Cloud while he was dressed as a lady!

Topic creator, may I add Kotch to the poll? I know I could vote for other, but I really feel Kotch deserves a category of his own.

That is IF you didn't do everything right. But I'm serious. What chararacter was the main villian?


Hojo :p
He did seem to cause everything though, he created Sephiroth,wanted Aeris, and experimented with Jenova cells.


PS- The poll says villain so not other.

What I mean is if you think there is a bad guy out there for you to put other and say who. Oh, to let you know, Sephiroth had complete control of Jenova, so when Hojo injected himself with Jenova cells..he was slowly being subjected to Sephiroth's will, and he didn't create Sephiroth either nor did he want Aeirth..just to mate RedXIII and her together is all.

actually in the ff7 series hojo was proven to be his father and lucrecia as his mother

yeah...but that don't cont toward creating anything...to create is to start from nothing and make something... he wasn't scientifically made...in this meaning

[Edge7]

Mukki. :(

[beema]

I think you mean ANTAGONIST dingus.
Cloud was clearly the protagonist. Definition: 1. the leading character, hero, or heroine of a drama or other literary work.
I don't see how anyone else in the game could be considered a protagonist.

As far as who the real antagonist is, it's clearly Sephiroth. Early in the game it's Shinra, but Sephiroth eclipses them pretty quickly. I guess it could be argued that Jenova is the antagonist since Sephiroth is essentially a reincarnation of her, but that's really a technicality.

If you want to get even more technical, Hojo is responsible for creating Sephiroth, and Shinra is responsible for Hojo. So Shinra is the main evil (although Jenova came long before them). But that's not what an antagonist is. Sephiroth is the main source of drama and conflict in the game. He is the one that the story follows and that it is your ultimate goal to defeat, so he is quite obviously the main villain of the game.

What the hell would the "other" option be? Cloud's subconcious? I guess you are fighting against his weak will the whole game since his stupid ass manages to hand Meteor over to Sephiroth.

[Forsaken Lover]

-The Roles of JENOVA and Sephiroth: The Puppet Master Theorem-

The long debated matter of Final Fantasy VII: The Puppet Master Theorem; was
JENOVA or Sephiroth in control? Who was the grand manipulator, the mastermind
behind it all? I will here present the truth of the matter.


Before examining this matter, it may be best to first explain what JENOVA is
and functions as: A virus. Whatever its origins, JENOVA's behaviour 2,000
years before the main events of the game was indicative of that of a virus,
the goals of a virus being to spread and to replicate. This is exactly what
JENOVA does upon its arrival on the world of Gaia. It approaches the Cetra,
tricking them with its appearance by appearing as their dead relatives, and
then it released upon them what Ifalna referred to as "the virus." She said
that this virus drove the Cetra insane and turned them into monsters.

Ifalna: "That's when the one who injured the Planet... or the 'crisis from the
sky', as we call him, came. He first approached as a friend, deceived them and
finally...... gave them the virus. The Cetra were attacked by the virus and
went mad... transforming into monsters. Then, just as he had at the
Knowlespole. He approached other Cetra clans...... infecting them with... the
virus..."


and

Ifalna: "That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead mothers...
and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."

The actions of an instinctual virus? Not whatsoever. The actions of a malicious entity, purposefully manipulating minds of the Cetra with telepathically drawing out the memories of their loved ones and then it also showed a specific intent on destroying the Cetra. She says it specificlaly hunted her race down, indicating that for whatever reason, they were the main object of Jenova. I would think a simple monstrous virus would infect all it could.


At face value, this may sound like an attack. But think a bit further: Ifalna
is not saying that these Cetra were being killed; rather, she is saying that
they were being TRANSFORMED. JENOVA's Cells are known to cause mutations. As
Sephiroth says at the Northern Crater, "The power to change one's looks,
voice, and words is the power of Jenova." What, then, was JENOVA releasing
upon the Cetra? Its very own Cells. It was transforming them into more of
itself. JENOVA was seeking to replicate.

This ENTIRE paragraph is supposition. It is in fact faulty as it draws from the faulty comparison of what Jenova did to the Cetra and what is happening at the time of Advent Children are similar, which they are not.


We find further suggestion of this concept in the official Final Fantasy VII
novel, "On the Way to a Smile," written by Kazushige Nojima, which serves to
bridge the two-year gap between the events of Final Fantasy VII and those of
Advent Children. In this story, Denzel tells Reeve that those people INFECTED
(note the terminology) with JENOVA's Cells that were spread by the Lifestream
flowing across Midgar were discharging a black pus through the pores of their
bodies. With this in mind, recall that the malady known as "Geostigma" is
revealed in the film to be the result of the body overworking itself in an
effort to rid itself of JENOVA's Cells. When JENOVA's Cells entered people, at
first they would discharge this black pus, as this is the body's natural
reaction to an intrusion by viruses: One's natural immune system involuntarily
rushes white blood cells to the location of an infectious substance within
one's body in an attempt to contain it and then discharge it from the body.
That's exactly what was happening with those infected by JENOVA's Cells.
However, the virus was too strong to be removed as simply as random bacteria
would be.

And strangely enough, Ifalna didn’t mention any of this She mentions the Cetra going insane and turning to monsters, not spewing black pus and dying.

Also the way Geostigma came out is not the way Jenova infected the Cetra with “the virus.”


With that touched upon, I will now move on to the events of the game itself.
I would argue that the acts of murdering President Shinra, much of the Shin-Ra
personnel in the Shin-Ra headquarters, and Aerith were Sephiroth's, being
committed while he carried out the new JENOVA's will: His own will. Sephiroth
was essentially the ebmodiment of JENOVA in a native of the Planet of Gaia,
while still retaining his own individuality. JENOVA's will was never so much
that of consciously perceiving thought processes, but, rather, that of an
instinctual beast, a virus seeking to perform one function: To make more of
itself.

Except we don’t know Jenova was making more of herself. We know she was making “monsters.” And in fact, all these people died. So the replication you ASSUME Jenova is doing didn’t go anywhere.

And again, the way Ifalna describes Jenova’s determined extermination of the Cetra indicates far more than an “instinctual beast.”


Once Sephiroth fell into the Lifestream with JENOVA's head, his life changed.
The knowledge of the Lifestream would have become privy to him. Sephiroth
would have come to learn just what JENOVA was, and just who he was. Sephiroth
then simply desired to assume the role of that which he now was: A virus. He
wanted to become everything. He wanted the world to be his. He wanted
everything to be part of himself, just as he and JENOVA were part of one
another. He wanted to shape the future in his own image, living now as the
JENOVA virus with the mind and emotions he had as a consciously perceiving
human being:

I like how he inserts his own romanticized version of Sephiroth’s motivations into his essay.

Sephiroth learned all these things and was still a villain...for no reason. End of story.



As can be seen here, Sephiroth desired to become one with everything else. He
desired to make everything be a part of him. He desired to replicate.
Sephiroth's growth was essentially that of introducing conscious perception to
a viral entity that "thought" based on instinct.

Except direct canon contradicts the idea of Jenova being nothing more than an instinctual virus. Take it up with Ifalna.




Sephiroth's goal is further supported by the game's CGI film sequel, Final
Fantasy VII: Advent Children. During the film, after Sephiroth has been reborn
due to JENOVA's Cells that were in Rufus Shinra's possession merging with
Kadaj, he tells Cloud that his goal is to use Gaia itself as a vessel to sail
the cosmos until he can find another Planet, one which has not yet been
"corrupted" by the presence of Homo Sapiens. He then intends to make this
world be his new "paradise."

Good for him. Sorry this was never Jenova’s intentions.

Or can you tell me when she strived to control the Planet? She was around for quite some time back in the day and no accounts we have document her trying to assume control of the Planet.





Sephiroth's utmost enmity toward Cloud and consistent mental torture of the
protagonist displays that Sephiroth himself was certainly very much aware and
active, as JENOVA would have no cause to render such agony unto Cloud, whereas
Sephiroth, one who was filled with pride -- pride that had been hurt when
Cloud overpowered him five years earlier

Where does this illusion of Sephiroth being overly prideful come from?

Also may I remind you:

*Sephiroth: "What are you saying? Are you trying to tell me you have feelings
too?"

Now, his actions and words are what is so key here. His first line is uttered
in a very grandiose-manner, yet once he hears Cloud tell him about his
feelings, he looks down in perplexity. The real Sephiroth with Sephiroth's
memories know that Cloud is very much human, that he can feel.

...


In conclusion, my determination is that there was no issue of control in the
first place, as Sephiroth WAS JENOVA, but an evolved -- or, rather, mutated --
form of an instinctual, viral creature that didn't operate on the higher level
of consciousness that Homo Sapiens -- consciously perceiving beings -- do. In
fact, Square-Enix's Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega Guide, published in
September of 2005, confirms this, stating that Sephiroth, with his higher
level of consciousness, assumed rulership over JENOVA's Cells.

It’s funny that you should use the UOG as evidence – seing as how your entire essay contradicts it.

[Bolivar]

one of the great things about VII is all the theories and debates over them that last until the present day, unfortunately, I believe one of the writers (Kitase/Nomura/Sakaguchi/Nojima) clarified that sephiroth was controlling Jenova.

I'll still always believe that it serves as a scenario similar to FF's - it was the will of darkness that compelled Garland & the Fiends, the Devil that ended up controlling the emporer, zemus controlling golbez, the void overcoming X-Death.

My belief is although Sephiroth was acting of his own free will, with his own intentions and inclinations, it was still the overall general will of Jenova that he was carrying out. Finding a way to become ruler of the planet, as so far as to 'become one' with it. Until it dies and he/she/it/they must go to a new one in order to survive, repeating what started 2,000 years prior to the game's scenario. I believe that's the function of Jenova.

[Bart's Friend Milhouse]

This thread has old man's stink

[The Crystal]

My belief is although Sephiroth was acting of his own free will, with his own intentions and inclinations, it was still the overall general will of Jenova that he was carrying out. Finding a way to become ruler of the planet, as so far as to 'become one' with it. Until it dies and he/she/it/they must go to a new one in order to survive, repeating what started 2,000 years prior to the game's scenario. I believe that's the function of Jenova.

I agree. In FFVII and AC, Sephiroth and Jenova are basicaly the same being.

Wikipedia says that:
"Sephiroth became what some call the newest stage of evolution for Jenova, and anything "Jenova" does in the game's present day is simply Sephiroth invoking his new powers. When Sephiroth came into the picture, the minds of the two joined, and Sephiroth made himself the core of the viral entity that Jenova was, with his ambitions being fueled by its parasitic instincts and his desire to destroy all the humans he despised. Thus, his will manifested through Jenova's extensive psionic powers."

And this is proved by the UOG:

Ultimania Omega Guide:
"The Sephiroth clones seen in various locations continue gathering for the Reunion. Seemingly, the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it consuming Sephiroth's spirit; in actuality, Sephiroth is controlling Jenova."

Sephiroth and Jenova merged together, forming a "new" being. This is why he wanted to become one with the planet and travel the universe(searching for other planets to infect/destroy, like a parisite), because this was Jenova's instinctual nature. But in the same time, he wanted revenge against Cloud, because of his human emotions.

In FFVII and AC, Sephiroth and Jenova are the same.