This game is awful

[Shadow8017]

seriously have any of you posting here ever played Final Fantasy VI-VII and the subsequent rpgs up till X? Do you really think this game holds the same standard of quality in terms of storyline, original score, and character development?

I'm not trying to troll or anything but I'm honestly just looking for clarification as to how one can overlook this game's many many flaws. This game is to Final Fantasy what Phantom Menace was to Star Wars. Pretentious, shallow, tries to impress you with a whole :skull::skull::skull::skull:-ton of CGI sequences, but in the end only succeeds in ruining a once respected series.

I'll expound on my thoughts later as to how exactly this game fails utterly, I've got school for now =p I'm really interested in hearing your opinions though.

[Doomie]

Honestly, this game sucks storywise. I'm not exactly sure what's going on. However, the gameplay is probably one of the best. The turn-based system was getting old. Not to mention that the license grid system was pretty fun to complete. What's even better is that you have SO MANY secret bosses and dungeons. Overall, it's a decent game.

[Yuriev's ghost]

And I thought I was basically alone in my absolute contempt for this game. I wouldn't say it 'ruins' the series (there has been at least one worse installment in the main series), but I think your analogy of this game being The Phantom Menace is pretty accurate.

[rubah]

Cut scenes? I've seen fewer than FFX had in the first hour xD

I haven't finished it, so I can't argue details, but I have a crapload of hours on the clock, so I'd definitely say it was worth the money spent

[silentenigma]

Yeah, all your arguements are valid, but it's still pretty good.

[Moon Rabbits]

False. This game is great.

The storyline was a great concept and whatnot, and I think extremely original. It just had bad pacing.

Lack of character development? I thought there was a fair decent amount, actually. And the characters were all likeable, to me anyway, and XII is one of the only FFs to have a cast that I enjoy in it's entirety.

I don't feel there were too many cutscenes either, because I was never really bored.

Either way, the good out weight the bad, and with the hundreds of extra things to do I really do like this game.

[Shadow8017]

yes the new battle system is good. But seriously have you ever picked up a new rpg thinking to yourself "damn I hope the battle system is good." Its not the defining feature of an rpg and never was and never will be. All a good battle system does is make the dungeon crawling more tolerable ( which at times random battles could drive you insane ) however its not praiseworthy when the rest of the game sucks.

Another thing worth noting about this new and improved battle system was how terribley it was implemented. It could have been the best freakin battle system to ever grace an rpg, but the way this game makes you trudge through hours and hours of turgid mindless killing of npcs it just doesn't matter, thats not rewarding and does a number on the game's pacing.

As for the character development being "fair and decent" ... Well really I dont know how you could come to that conclusion, Vaan's persepective never deviates from "I hate the empire cus my brother was killed and I wanna be a sky pirate!" Its laughable .. 50 hours into the game nearly having beaten it and he still is no different. We learn nothing of him. All this while hes supposed to be the "main character" ... wtf? Oh and dont get me started with Penello, I still cant figure out why shes going along other than just for the hell of it. I think the game wants us to believe that too.

and then, theres the music. Oh god it makes me miss Nobuo Uematsu so bad. After having beaten it I dont think I could remember a single track from the game let alone like it. They are that forgettable.

[Gabranth]

yes the new battle system is good. But seriously have you ever picked up a new rpg thinking to yourself "damn I hope the battle system is good."


well, considering that the battle system in any rpg is what makes or breaks the gameplay, yes, i do think to myself, "damn I hope the [gameplay] is good."



All this while hes [Vaan] supposed to be the "main character" ... wtf? Oh and dont get me started with Penello, I still cant figure out why shes going along other than just for the hell of it. I think the game wants us to believe that too.

actually, i have an issue of official playstation magazine that has akitoshi kawazu (FFXII producer) saying that there is no single main character. and yes, i think penelo sucks as well.


and then, theres the music. Oh god it makes me miss Nobuo Uematsu so bad. After having beaten it I dont think I could remember a single track from the game let alone like it. They are that forgettable.


i totally agree with you on this one. the music sucked so bad in my opinion.

[farplaner]

What do you know! It's reality time!

One of the things I enjoy about RPG's in general, and about FF's specifically, is the process of building the characters and covering the entire game world with a fine-tooth comb. In this respect, at least, FFXII does pretty well.

Towards the end of the game, you start to get a sense that things are coming to a head, and as I realized this fact I thought, "This better not be the end! There is just no way they could wrap the whole thing up so shortly." Hence my disappointment.

It is possible to spend a lot of time (a lot of hours) making your way through the game, but "high number of hours" does not equal "adequate development." I think the development team got lost on their way to include everything plus the kitchen sink in this game, and completely forgot about the overall experience.

The whole license board thing seemed to me a flawed imitation of the sphere grid. Collecting gil is tedious- spending hours just to obtain enough to keep up with the tons of superfluous equipment being dumped into the shops.

Anyway, I truly wouldn't mind a return to the PS1 platform FF's. I'm happy to stand in an unrealistic line during battle if it means more attention would be paid to what's really important.

[Setzer Gabianni]

False. This game is great.

The storyline was a great concept and whatnot, and I think extremely original. It just had bad pacing.
Lack of character development? I thought there was a fair decent amount, actually. And the characters were all likeable, to me anyway, and XII is one of the only FFs to have a cast that I enjoy in it's entirety.

I don't feel there were too many cutscenes either, because I was never really bored.

Either way, the good out weight the bad, and with the hundreds of extra things to do I really do like this game.


I agree entirely with this, apart from the stuff in bold, but once I have played more of the game, I'll give you my opinion Shadow.

This game doesn't really have a lot of flaws, apart from fucking up Tiamats design completely.

But then, we can't please everybody can we? We all have different tastes, thoughts.

I get the impression people went into this expecting it to be the best FF ever, doing very little research as to not spoil themselves, and when they did play it, they didn't like the changes.

I made sure to spoil myself, as I always do, so I pretty much know what I'm going to, and I know for a fact this is pretty much going to be my fave FF since VI.

I love FFXII

[Nominus Experse]

yes the new battle system is good. But seriously have you ever picked up a new rpg thinking to yourself "damn I hope the battle system is good."
You don't, and never have?
I have, on many accounts, decided to look into it further than just the back cover.

Its not the defining feature of an rpg and never was and never will be. All a good battle system does is make the dungeon crawling more tolerable
So this would explain why many RPGs are constantly trying to add innovations that are notable in their battle mechanics, and publicize such things heavily.

People tire of the same thing. Change gives way to novelty, and in turn, gives way to a level of interest and excitement.


however its not praiseworthy when the rest of the game sucks.
You have yet to give a solid argument as to why FFXII is an awful game.


Another thing worth noting about this new and improved battle system was how terribley it was implemented. It could have been the best freakin battle system to ever grace an rpg, but the way this game makes you trudge through hours and hours of turgid mindless killing of npcs it just doesn't matter, thats not rewarding and does a number on the game's pacing.
In an RPG, one travels, commonly through various environments that may range from dungeons to grand spires, most - if not all - are infested with fiends that wish to harm you. In FFVII on up, upon every attack, you are taken to another screen, and there and then, you fought whatever random encounter decided to "attack" you. If you can possibly give a valid argument as to how FFXII's seamless transition between dungeon crawling and battling is somehow more time-consuming or invasive in concerns to the story's pacing than that of previous FF's... I will be surprised.


As for the character development being "fair and decent" ... Well really I dont know how you could come to that conclusion, Vaan's persepective never deviates from "I hate the empire cus my brother was killed and I wanna be a sky pirate!" Its laughable .. 50 hours into the game nearly having beaten it and he still is no different. We learn nothing of him. All this while hes supposed to be the "main character" ... wtf?
If you look at it more closely, Vaan is not the main character.

Unlike many other FF's or RPGs, FFXII did not have a "one" hero character, but was rather a story of political intrigue and conflict that these characters are caught up in.

Look at Ashe, Baltheir, Fran.... Every character is dynamic to a degree, so saying that they are completely static is rash. Additionally, complaining that a character holds onto a set motive seems... strange to me, as there are particular things that motivate people/characters for their entire lives, and justifiably so.


and then, theres the music. Oh god it makes me miss Nobuo Uematsu so bad. After having beaten it I dont think I could remember a single track from the game let alone like it. They are that forgettable.
You complain because it is different, not because it is sub-par.

[Wolf Kanno]

Wow, here I was getting ready to lay the smackdown and Nominus Experse beats me to it. So I guess I'll lay down my two cents. I love this game, it's not my favorite but I walked away from it pretty satisfied. It offered me everything I've wanted from the series for awhile.

First off, this game has a ton of sidequests and optional areas. Something that has been lacking in the series for awhile. The game actually encourages you to explore (except not in the obnoxious DQ way of doing it.) The world is incredible and detailed. Their is more backstory to this world than any other FF I know of except for maybe FFT. The cities are huge and filled with people making them feel alive. Hell, the NPC's usually have something relevant to say for once.

The characters are more realistic, in the sense that their is a level of mistrust with each other. Vaan can be annoying but at least the party is aware of this and tend to put him in his place. As for Penelo, I give her props for not being perky like Rikku or Selphie or Yuffie (evil little #@$%) basically the same damn template that's been used in every FF since FFV. For that, I like her cause she never spoke and never tried to "cheer me up". It gets old people...

I feel all the cast is given enough backstory to justify who they are and where they stand in the world. Honestly, I don't really want to know more about Vaan and Penelo, especially since talking to the NPC's gave me a pretty good idea of what they were like as children. Also, their is no officail main character to FFXII.

The gameplay is wonderful and I never felt like I was being dragged down by countless hordes of monsters. When I didn't feel like fighting I found that I could easily avoid combat. The gambits are fun to use cause I love building strategies. The Liscience Board is a pretty interesting take on the Job Class system. I loved the weapons and how much they really changed a character in combat. Buying them was a pain but it brought back memories of playing FFI and FFIV. You know where you had to take time to earn money to buy new stuff so the next dungeon doesn't hand you your ass.

I love the huge areas to explore and the fact that a good number of them are completely optional. You see, I played these games back in the day when exploration was everything to an RPG. So it was a welcomed sights, especially since the series has become increasingly linear since FFVII.

The story, was pretty good. Simple. But good. I'm just grateful it wasn't hounded with plot holes or terrible writing choices which has been occuring more often since the PS1 generation. It had one major plot twist I didn't see coming and I found the political intrigue to be satisfying. I especailly loved Lady Ashe's relationship to the whole story. I loved how human it was. Her internal conflict was one of the strong points of the story. I did wish the Judges got more airtime though.

My only complaints are just the random treasure chest contents (I know it's not something new in RPGs but I still hate it.) the final boss battle could have been a bit challenging (what is up with FF games making their final bosses losers? Stop building uber optioanl bosses and let me have a damn good final boss fight for once.:mad: ) I also wish the music could have been more memorable. I liked the soundtrack but there were very few memorable tracks. Other than that, I think it's a really good game, I feel it has truly set the bar on world and game design in RPGs.

[ValiantKnight]

/shrugs... I remember FFXII's music about as well as I remember any of the others. I can't name a track from 1, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 or Tactics offhand. I do remember two of 7's tunes a little, and the final theme for 8. Then theres the standard FF tune that is in every game. The music seemed fine to me... nothing really special or area/scene defining.. but thats not a real big loss to me.

You play some music, and I could probably tell you which FF it came from out of those... but I never could name the track except for a very few mentioned.

The gameplay is different than previous, although still good.
Vaan changes a little, its just more subtle and not screamed out. Yes, I did not quite like the story as much as previous FFs, but to each his own. It felt a little more exploration and less aligned to a single road... because there wasn't as much story.

However there were some bad parts, most notably a certain optional boss, and the random treasure chest system... although I see a point for the system, its not as practical as past treasure systems.

I don't think I'll be replaying it too much, similar to most of the PS+ generation FFs... but it was pretty good.

[Shadow8017]

Nominus, your response reeks of arrogance. Particularly at points you're giving me alternative explanations as to why I personally dislike a certain point, and then proceeding to sell it as fact. it's humerous, but I'm going to refrain from explaining to you how this is arrogant and unproductive for argument's sake. If you don't understand why ... then sorry.


..On to your arguments.



yes the new battle system is good. But seriously have you ever picked up a new rpg thinking to yourself "damn I hope the battle system is good."
You don't, and never have?
I have, on many accounts, decided to look into it further than just the back cover.


Its not the defining feature of an rpg and never was and never will be. All a good battle system does is make the dungeon crawling more tolerable

So this would explain why many RPGs are constantly trying to add innovations that are notable in their battle mechanics, and publicize such things heavily.

People tire of the same thing. Change gives way to novelty, and in turn, gives way to a level of interest and excitement.

I believe you're misunderstanding what I'm saying about the battle system here at a very fundamental level. Let me break it down for you. What I'm saying is something I know without a doubt that the rpg gaming community as a whole can agree on and thats that generally STORIES have sold rpgs ... actually the focual points are a combination of story/music. ( both which FFXII were lacking of course, more on that later ) Take Final Fantasy VII for example. Perhaps the most popular console rpg ever. Time and time again, people will cite their reasons for remembering back on it so fondly as being the intriguing story, interesting characters, and an amazing masterfully attuned musical composition. Music that seemed to fit each and every moment so perfectly. NOT and I repeat NOT the battle system. Perhaps the reason you see franchises extolling over their new and super-duper battle mechanics is because they're trying to lure NEW gamers into the genre. However we "true' rpg gamers know better. We know that in each and every rpg we play we're going to be treated to battle after battle after battle and its just too inherently repititive to gloat over. YES the traditional battle system of Final Fantasies was due for an overhaul, and yes I believe they succeeded in creating something fresh and worthwhile with the new one however.... It's simply not the "selling" point of an rpg and if you want to argue with me on this than I suppose we can just "agree to disagree" however you're going to have to explain yourself to many others besides just myself.




however its not praiseworthy when the rest of the game sucks.

[You have yet to give a solid argument as to why FFXII is an awful game.

And you've achieved mountaneous things in defending it. Look around, others are agreeing with me. I'll do my best in explaining why I found this game to be so hideously sub-par and if you still can't agree with me than I assure you it's not my problem. Perhaps we have different tastes, I can't say everyone will have the same experience. However as someone whos been playin FF since the release of III (US) and countless other rpgs I'm confident my sentiment will resonate with many others so you be the judge.



In an RPG, one travels, commonly through various environments that may range from dungeons to grand spires, most - if not all - are infested with fiends that wish to harm you. In FFVII on up, upon every attack, you are taken to another screen, and there and then, you fought whatever random encounter decided to "attack" you.

lol


If you can possibly give a valid argument as to how FFXII's seamless transition between dungeon crawling and battling is somehow more time-consuming or invasive in concerns to the story's pacing than that of previous FF's... I will be surprised.

Sure. The lack of involvement due to the abusing of gambits definately made it feel more time-consuming. Sure I could cast a spell here and there, however more often than not it just isn't necassary. All that's required of you is getting from point A to point B while letting your gambits do the all the work so you're essentially playing a game thats in auto-pilot. The boss fights, being as random as they often were, were really the only times I felt engaged. To make matters worse, there's rarely ... if ever that I can recall a point in which any actually interesting dialogue is going on between your party during these dungeon sloughs. Its usually only tidbits of information exchanged relevent to your task at hand, I guess to remind you why you're there in the first place just incase you forgot. Furthermore, in rpgs past, the monotony of dungeons is usually offset by obtaining treasure that actually contain something worthwhile. The inclusion of chests in FFXII is really suspect, as 90% of the time they never really contain something of more value than a couple of hundred gil, or a gambit that I typically already possess. That and tack on some very pointless trivial puzzle-solving and you got yourself a guaranteed 1 hour or more snoozefest upon entering a dungeon or new area. Afterwards in which you'll be treated with nothing more than what to do next or at best how the political tides of Ivalice have shifted. Rarely ever learning anything actually new about your party that depthens them, especially if its not Ashe, Balthier, or Basche, who I'd argue are really the only characters in your party relevent to the story. Speaking of which..



As for the character development being "fair and decent" ... Well really I dont know how you could come to that conclusion, Vaan's persepective never deviates from "I hate the empire cus my brother was killed and I wanna be a sky pirate!" Its laughable .. 50 hours into the game nearly having beaten it and he still is no different. We learn nothing of him. All this while hes supposed to be the "main character" ... wtf?

If you look at it more closely, Vaan is not the main character.

Unlike many other FF's or RPGs, FFXII did not have a "one" hero character, but was rather a story of political intrigue and conflict that these characters are caught up in.

Look at Ashe, Baltheir, Fran.... Every character is dynamic to a degree, so saying that they are completely static is rash. Additionally, complaining that a character holds onto a set motive seems... strange to me, as there are particular things that motivate people/characters for their entire lives, and justifiably so.

First you start off playing as Vaan, he's also the character featured in front of everyone on the box. While it is true he is not the typical "main character" we have been given in games past, it seems as if it is atleast implied he is a feature character ... and thats shocking when considering the story could have gotten by just fine without him. His role in this game can be reduced to arbitrarily asking "what is this? what is that? You mean to tell me ___" and many many equally asinine variations whos mode is merely to advance the story in an all-too predictable manner. sigh... Ok lets see.. Penello, well not much to say here, shes along for the ride to save the world cus she wants to be around Vaan. Even "wildcard" characters in the past such as Cait Sith had atleast good REASON to be along with your party, despite them not receiving much development, which in FFXII's case was the norm rather than the exception. Fran and Balthier. Fran's pretty funny cus we really never learn why she is travelling alongside Balthier other than just some vague "do-goodery" intentions that seems to prevail with everyone in the party. We're "treated" to some rather dull and brief bits about her past and seperating herself from the wood and the Vierra and we get the idea shes the outcast of her society but still ... thats barebones crap, she has some real potential but they just didn't bother to flesh it out. 60 hours of gameplay down the dumper and still ... why is she Balthier's companion? Who the hell is she really?.. Balthier is refreshing cus his personality and manner of speach isn't so god damn robotic like all the others, and he seemingly has ties with the story because his father being the head researcher of the draclore labaratory so atleast that puts him above the competition. Ashe and Basche. Again I think these characters are more victim to the theme of this game's focus on the grand scheme of the political spectrum ( which was overral trite and predictable evil empire oppressing smaller weaker nations crap with not a whole lot inbetween ) rather than the characters themselves. They had potential but when I examine Ashe I just dont properly feel her sense of urgency and responsibility, its just the vague do-goodery stuff that she wishes to protect and liberate her country but with her character being so 1-dimensional its almost like it doesn't allow me to relate. and why does she have to be so flat, can't her attitude change ... at all to keep things interesting if anything else. Basche is eh well just victim of more of the same flaws.

I think what we're looking at here is exploiting these characters just as a vehicle to progress their CGI-bound story and thats it. Which is both a waste and a radical departure from any "good" rpg I've ever played. It's as if they thought that we would be so engrossed in their "epic" story and all the pretty graphics we wouldn't stop to notice. Ultimately if you dont give your characters proper attention, the story itself becomes somewhat null and void. Final Fantasies in the past understood this and it showed, we cared when Aeris died, we cared when Vivi was reconciling his fear with his finite lifespan, we cared when Tidus dematerialised at the end. The characters in FFXII are so soulless compared to this.


and then, theres the music. Oh god it makes me miss Nobuo Uematsu so bad. After having beaten it I dont think I could remember a single track from the game let alone like it. They are that forgettable.

You complain because it is different, not because it is sub-par.

Music's role in an rpg is paramount, it's what really captivates you and draws you in the moment. An example we often hear is Aeris music after she dies - perfect, but in a well composed OST even the town music will be "fitting" to that particular environment. In FFXII I found it to be dull, unimpressionable, and pretty generic to me but then again maybe it doesn't matter since that usually sums up my feelings about any given moment in the game. Props to you if you actually like it. It just all sounded so plain and uninspired ... like the composer wasn't really working as closely with the game devs on what exactly he was composing for other than "generic happy town theme" ... the game did go through a few of management overhauls as I understand it so that might explain it. As for me not liking it cus its "different" .. nice try but no. I've run the gamut of rpgs with my favorite OSTs being Chrono Cross, FFVI, and FFVII ... all of which sound quite different from eachother - one being on the snes and the other two composed by different people.

[Renmiri]

Do you really think this game holds the same standard of quality in terms of storyline, original score, and character development?

I'm not trying to troll or anything but I'm honestly just looking for clarification as to how one can overlook this game's many many flaws.
True,and you are not the first. I've been saying that for ages here and almost got lynched.

But like X-2, the game does get better after you get over the fact that it shattered your expectations.

and then, theres the music. Oh god it makes me miss Nobuo Uematsu so bad. After having beaten it I dont think I could remember a single track from the game let alone like it. They are that forgettable.
QFT


Nominus, your response reeks of arrogance.
That will happen often when you tell the game fans you didn't like their idolized game ;) Nominus wasn't 1% as rabid as some other FFXII lovers I've met since november. I've heard so much BS!!! Things like
- people who like FFXII are more mature (because they like hacking monsters more than they like story ?)
- FFXII is for people with culture who appreciate the originality of the story (yeah, people with culture who never heard of the Roman Empire ;) )
- If you don't like FFXII you don't really like RPGs (because ??? )

Anyhow, like FFVII and X, this game has it's fanboys and fangirls so be gentle with your criticism or you will get flamed!

And don't judge it too harshly. Gameplay is fun, graphics are great and the sidequests and little details of the world of Ivalice rock. You may end up liking it, in spite of it's many flaws. I did.

[Wolf Kanno]

However we "true' rpg gamers know better.

I find your generalizations to be completely out of line. How dare you define all "true" rpg gamers to be people who only think like you do! I was ready to counter all you points but after reading this, I'm not even going to bother.

I doubt anything I say is going to affect you since obviously I think differently about what makes an RPG and you'll just shrug me off as one of the "casual gamers" in this genre. Gameplay is important and as whole RPG's have lousy soundtracks, only a few actually have exceptional soundtracks just like any other genre of gaming. So it's not a "defining feature" for a game.

I'm going to stop here cause I'm doing my best to be civil. But if you don't like the game that is fine. We all have our own opinions. I just really don't agree with yours, so I'll leave it at that.

[Nominus Experse]

First of all, realize I enjoyed FFXII, but I am not one to be given to fanaticism about it. I say this because I feel I am being placed in such a category (Renmiri).

As for that of me being arrogant: I was being curt and blunt, not arrogant. But meh, I was not on the receiving end, so whatever...


Realize in several points I attempted to counter, I meant to play devil's advocate due to the fact that Shadow8017 had yet to really lay out what exactly his/her points were.

Some points I agree on:
The music
The story felt almost... "detached". And the characters were not given enough development, even though there were ample times for them to expand. They were dynamic, yes, but not enough. Perhaps I am spoiled by previous FF's or other RPGs, but I expected and wanted more.
The fact that Vaan really could have been thrown aside in some ways
That gambits will create monotony (as compared to just mashing X or A :p )

And yeah, the main focus of most - if not all RPGs - is the story. But no one cares for a story if it's weighed down by monotonous game play or arbitrary quirks.

There are valid arguments for both sides, and I believe Shadow8017 does bring them up.



Really, when it comes down to it, I wouldn't call this game awful, nor would I be so consumed by fanboyism to call it wonderful. It breaks some rules, and adds a level of innovation in several areas (some of which are arguably worse or better, varying largely more on personal taste than anything else). It falls short in some areas, of course, but I think it makes up for it in other areas.

It's different than most FF's, particularly FFVII, FFVIII, and FFIX.

It is only natural that some will enjoy it, and others will not. As I said before, there are valid points to made for both sides.


I played it through, and at its end, I didn't feel like I had wasted my time. Was it memorable? Some parts, but it was no FFVI or FFVII.




I will say, however, that it feels as though this game garners far too much praise.



EDIT: God damn it, Wolf Kanno. Just fucking post it. I want an argument going on in here - one that is heated and emotionally driven! I can't play devil's advocate forever as I am too detached from either side to really care.

[LunarWeaver]

I quite enjoyed the gameplay, and the plot was enough to make see through it to the end. As a game, it's rather great in that it gives you plenty of hours of activity for your money.

I did think the story was weaker than recent entries, but it is not horrible by any means. It still pulls off a story better than most RPGs could ever dream of, especially when 99% of all J-RPGs are content with telling the same exact tale in the same exact manner with no imagination at all. The world of Ivalice had a lot of flair to it at least, and while the cutscenes were too far between for my tastes, everytime one happened I was left blown away and reminded all over again why I couldn't wait to see the next.

But it's not all about cutscenes, and you really should be asking yourself "will the battle system be fun." I'm actually quite sad that you think of an RPG as nothing but a story with really tedious gameplay in between. If you look at that way, then an RPG is nothing but a movie with 30 hours of commercial breaks.

Musically, it's not the best thing the series or Sakimoto ever made, but the music isn't bad either. Fitting music that blends into the background is certainly better than grating music that calls for a mute button.

The characters in the game... I would say they get development, but it's a different kind from what they've done in most of the installments. These characters have more static character development rather than a dynamic style of development.

In other words, they are the same people at the end as in the beginning because they have already become the people they will be forever. Balthier, Fran, Basch...They all have quite deep histories, but the histories have already happened and produced the personalites you already know.

In a way, that gives me the feeling that I'm missing a bit. It's sort of like coming into Squall's tale when he and Rinoa are already a couple, he's less of an asshole to everybody, and you only get to hear about his "whatever..." days in a passing mention. But on the other hand, this does make them feel more like real people. Most real people do not change entirely over the course of a handful of events, even ones that are sometimes extreme. When you're an adult, you're usually pretty set with the dominant aspects of your personality, and most of the characters are adults. Not true for everybody, of course, but for most. I think that's why people feel as if they didn't have "development," but at the same time feel like they were closer to real people then slapped-on personalities.

I'm fine with this approach for the most part, but I only wish they had interacted with each other more. X did a good job of making the party stop and speak with another so you really felt they were all Guardians towards the same goal. In XII, it really just feels like people who are forced together for one reason or another and can't wait to get back to their usual business again.

But the truth is that XII is an enormous gameworld. It's attention to detail and places to explore are simply huge. The game was already in development forever, and when people demand cutscenes from Square of the highest degree, only so much time and money and such is going to be put into it. At times, I do feel like they never got to tell the full story they wanted, but ah well... We have what we have now.

Besides, if there were lots of cutscenes we'd only get people whining it's like a movie. Players say they want an intricate plot with wonderful character development for each member of the party, but then turn around and say there's too many cutscenes and they don't want to watch them. You can't have both. I'm plenty patient, after all, the gaming parts will remain whether I watch the cutscene or not, so I tend to enjoy large cutscenes that go on forever. But XII is just a different kind of game. If you want that, go for Xenosaga or something.

Blaaarg. Okay, I'm done now. I have criticisms of the game, most of which I have posted before, but don't let that throw you off into thinking I don't like it or appreciate it. I have criticisms for the games I consider my favorites...Nothing is perfect, after all. But just because I can point out the faults doesn't really mean anything because I'm willing to overlook them (I can never say this in a way that makes sense to people :jess:). Upon subsequent playthroughs, I feel the game will be enjoyed more because everybody will have just calmed down and know what to expect. The hard work that went into it is still pretty clear to me, and I couldn't really ask or expect anything more from a game then what this provides.

Edit: It's like 3:20 in the morning and I read most posts entirely but scanned some...hopefully everything I just said isn't some huge rehash of what somebody else already said which would make me a smelly man wearing loserpants.

[Holy Lancer]

seriously have any of you posting here ever played Final Fantasy VI-VII and the subsequent rpgs up till X? Do you really think this game holds the same standard of quality in terms of storyline, original score, and character development?

I'm not trying to troll or anything but I'm honestly just looking for clarification as to how one can overlook this game's many many flaws. This game is to Final Fantasy what Phantom Menace was to Star Wars. Pretentious, shallow, tries to impress you with a whole :skull::skull::skull::skull:-ton of CGI sequences, but in the end only succeeds in ruining a once respected series.

I'll expound on my thoughts later as to how exactly this game fails utterly, I've got school for now =p I'm really interested in hearing your opinions though.

After playing all the Final Fantasy games I agree with you about the story, character development and original score being bad. I personally think the story is terrible, especially compared to some of the great previous storylines (I liked X). The characters aren't great either, even though I liked Balthier and Fran. But you also have to take into consideration that Nobuo Uematsu did not do the original score this time. I own most of the previous Final Fantasy Soundtracks and this one doesn't even compare,even though I like Ozmone Plains and the new Battle on the Big Bridge song. But those songs don't compare to some of my favorite songs like Terra in Black (FFVI), the original Battle on the Big Bridge (FFV), Freya's Theme (FFIX), Out of the Frying Pan (FFX), Matoya's Cave (FFI), Movement in Green (FFX), Cid's Theme (FFIX), and Fleeting Dream (FFX). I'll stop there because my list could go on forever because Uematsu was so great.

Well, ANYWAYS, the storyline may be crap, the music might blow, and the characters might be lame, but this is still a great game to me. There are some things in this game that make it a great game. One of them is the customization, just like one of my other favorite games, Final Fantasy V, this game lets you make your party into whatever kind of class you want. You can also choose your own main party and give espers (summons) to whichever characters you like.

But the one thing that truly makes this game great is all of the hunts. I absolutely love doing the hunts. I love how you can just go along in the main storyline and then once you get to one of those great orange save crystals you can say bye bye for a while and go hunt all the marks you want until your eyeballs pop out and then you return to the main storyline and kick @$$ :choc2: :choc2: :choc2: . This game is very fun, I like the new battle system and being master hunter.

P.S. I miss Nobuo Uematsu
The Black Mages can't make any new songs now lol they'll have to make old ones.

[Renmiri]

You know what I LOVED about XII ?

Havint to beat the Espers / Summons to achieve them. Felt a lot more rewarding than those cloister of trials at FFX.

It gave me a sense of achievement that I kicked Zalera's butt, every time he pwned a fiend. Like "weak fiends die, but I won" :love: :love: :love:

[Ouch!]

Nominus, your response reeks of arrogance.
I'm sorry, I can't take you seriously anymore after you said that. After that, the responses started getting so long that I couldn't bring myself to read any further anyway.

People have plenty of complaints about Final Fantasy XII, but, then again, there are complaints about every game in the series especially the hyped ones. It's disappointing that few people recognize middle ground in these arguments. Arguments usually turn into an all-or-nothing debate. Every game has its faults. I still replay my least favorite Final Fantasy from time-to-time even though I think the plot is one of the worst I've ever seen.

I could launch into a condescening rant refuting reasons why FFXII sucks, but I'll simply throw out some points. They've probably already been covered in depth by other people anyway.
1. The plot was mildly disappointing, but only because I was expecting something more like Final Fantasy Tactics.
2. Exploration was enough of a plus that I never felt any effects of poor pacing. If anything, I felt absolutely in control of the game's pacing.
3. Having played Final Fantasy XI, I had a good idea what to expect of FFXII's battle system. I was not disappointed.
4. I actually enjoyed the soundtrack. I'll concede the point that there aren't any particularly stunning pieces, but there weren't any that wanted to make me gag.

To be fair, here are some things that bugged me about Final Fantasy XII.
1. Little strategy is involved when selecting party members. I'll admit it, I miss the set job system, and try as I might to emulate it in FFXII, I found it to be more trouble than its worth to not give characters a little bit of everything.
2. The main villain was one of the least interesting characters in the game.
3. The final boss fight was a let-down. When I saw the his second form, I felt seriously ripped off. The final form was alright, but nothing fantastic.
4. I wanted to see more involvement of the judges, but that probably goes hand-in-hand with wanting another story of war and politics like FFT.

[Shadow8017]

Nominus, your response reeks of arrogance.
After that, the responses started getting so long that I couldn't bring myself to read any further anyway.

and I stopped reading after you said that.

[N8V_Tidus25]

Whatever ya'll I thought this game was amazing and I enjoyed the hell out of it.

[Roto13]

I like XII for the same reason I like X-2. It has really great gameplay. I read books and watch movies for stories. I play games for gameplay.

[Renmiri]

I like XII for the same reason I like X-2. It has really great gameplay.

Yes, same here. But XII is better than X-2 because it's not too girly and the music isn't too annoying (X-2 soundtrack made e want to smash the PS2 in the composers' head). And it does have fun missions, none of those find clothes or back massage nonsense!


and I stopped reading after you said that.

Give it a chance, gameplay is fun and the world of FFXII is so well thought out and the graphics are so great that you will like it eventually. I had each and every problem with it that you mentioned, and still maaged to have hours of fun with it. :)

[Holy Lancer]

You know what I LOVED about XII ?

Havint to beat the Espers / Summons to achieve them. Felt a lot more rewarding than those cloister of trials at FFX.

It gave me a sense of achievement that I kicked Zalera's butt, every time he pwned a fiend. Like "weak fiends die, but I won" :love: :love: :love:
Yeah but they are too easy to beat. I owned all the ones I faced so far and I'm about to go fight Chaos.

[rubah]

Zeromus isn't that easy when you come upon him suddenly with no prior warning or preparation!

[Nominus Experse]

What about the implementation of FF-2 antics? Such as the fact that there are uber-powerful enemies right next to weak or normal enemies in several areas.

Do you think it was wise or interesting that they decided to do this?

[Roto13]

They did that in FF II. It was to keep you from wandering somewhere you weren't supposed to be.

[Holy Lancer]

Zeromus isn't that easy when you come upon him suddenly with no prior warning or preparation!
I owned Zeromus so bad. I didn't even need to prepare.

[Holy Lancer]

They did that in FF II. It was to keep you from wandering somewhere you weren't supposed to be.

I think they did that in FFIX as well when you're in Ice Cavern I think and you can climb up a ladder where there are dragons that are at a high level compared to what you are used to fighting at that point in the game.

[Suikojowy]

They did that in FF II. It was to keep you from wandering somewhere you weren't supposed to be.

I think they did that in FFIX as well when you're in Ice Cavern I think and you can climb up a ladder where there are dragons that are at a high level compared to what you are used to fighting at that point in the game.

Yeah, I remember that being in Gizamaluke's grotto. I think they did it so players wouldn't just put gambits on, wrap an elastic band around the controls and just move around in circles killing regen monsters while they do something else.


I'm not very far in Final Fantasy XII, i'm just crossing the rain filled Giza plains, but I really hope the story either expands beyond a small resistance fighting the big badl empire or just gets told in a more intriguing way like Suikoden 1 (FANBOY) was.

[Renmiri]

What about the implementation of FF-2 antics? Such as the fact that there are uber-powerful enemies right next to weak or normal enemies in several areas.

Do you think it was wise or interesting that they decided to do this?

I loved it :D

Brings back the surprise they took away with the end of random encounters :love:


I really hope the story either expands beyond a small resistance fighting the big badl empire or just gets told in a more intriguing way

It doesn't. Not until the very last 2 missions, where it improves slightly. Enjoy the sidequests and gameplay, they are what makes FFXII a good game.

[Nominus Experse]

They did that in FF II. It was to keep you from wandering somewhere you weren't supposed to be.

Uh, yeah, Roto, already mentioned that:

What about the implementation of FF-2 antics?
:p

Perhaps I ought to rephrase what I posted earlier:

Was it a better idea to have uber-powerful enemies "guarding" various exits or doorways, or was it perhaps better when Sqeenix implemented the strangely impassable and largely arbitrary bush or denizen of ________ or ________?

I personally think it's better that they have powerful enemies standing guard, for a few reasons:

It lets you know immediately that you are not supposed to be there, but will return once a select event has transpired. FFII was drowned in such things.

I would rather have large Werewolves standing guard than a random bush/NPC/whatever that ought to be passable...

And having your party suddenly pan out to tell you to go elsewhere was annoying.


The only issue is that it piqued my interest and curiosity far too much (to the point of fleeing just to get to new areas that I will ultimately perish in), but that is more a fault of my own than the game's.




What about the way this game implemented magic? It didn't feel like magic was really needed in this game, whereas previous FF's and other RPGs seem to incorporate or even rely on magic much, much more.

I mean, there are the various buffs and the like, but it felt as though it wasn't the best choice to use offensive spells at all in this game. Save for a few end spells, none of them seemed to serve me any real offensive purpose*.

*Unless they were weak to a certain element, such as Fire, but even then, after a certain point, it seems as though I was racking up more damage due to multiple hits than that of one-hit spells.


And what of the summons? They seem to only be a collector item rather than an actual tool that is useful. I believe I summoned twice throughout the entirity of the game...

They just died too quickly, or your other two characters either dealt more damage and/or were more versatile.

The summons were marvelous pieces of animated artwork, though, I must say.

[Renmiri]

I hated how wimpy the Espers were. That plus the fact that the summoner has to be in the field pretty much guaranteed that you or your Esper would be killed before it did anything useful.

But Zalera, Exodus or Zeromus did come in handy when the foes gang up on the party. Zalera made them fall like flies :love:

[Holy Lancer]

They did that in FF II. It was to keep you from wandering somewhere you weren't supposed to be.

I think they did that in FFIX as well when you're in Ice Cavern I think and you can climb up a ladder where there are dragons that are at a high level compared to what you are used to fighting at that point in the game.

Yeah, I remember that being in Gizamaluke's grotto. I think they did it so players wouldn't just put gambits on, wrap an elastic band around the controls and just move around in circles killing regen monsters while they do something else.


I'm not very far in Final Fantasy XII, i'm just crossing the rain filled Giza plains, but I really hope the story either expands beyond a small resistance fighting the big badl empire or just gets told in a more intriguing way like Suikoden 1 (FANBOY) was.

Oops I meant Gizamaluke's Grotto, not Ice Caverns. Sorry I havent played FFIX in a while, its not the same after beating it six times.

[Lynx]

everyone complains about this games so called lack of story. the story isnt as big as some of the other FF's but its still pretty interesting none the less. theres plot twists and surprises through out it. also everyone has a common bond theyve all lost something important to them. the characters were a great group of characters too. through out it your left wondering is vaan the main character or not? in the end it doesnt really seem like he is because there is no real main character all the characters were important.

some of the best parts in the plot were

finding out basch was set up by hos own brother and that gabranth was the one who killed vaans brother

finding out that balthier was a judge and that his father is cid


reddas being killed by destroying the suncrest and yelling out the fact that he was a judge. also finding out reddas had involvemtn with the destruction of nabudis

also 2 of my favorite parts about the ending battle were
gabranth fighting on your side against vayne. and then larsa fighting with you

[DM_Melkhar]

Honestly, this game sucks storywise. I'm not exactly sure what's going on. However, the gameplay is probably one of the best. The turn-based system was getting old. Not to mention that the license grid system was pretty fun to complete. What's even better is that you have SO MANY secret bosses and dungeons. Overall, it's a decent game.
I had heard that the main plotline is ridiculously short. I'm at the Tomb of Raithwall at the moment.

Regardless, I'm having an awful lot of fun on this game. Compared to X and X-2, Square have certainly redeemed themselves in my opinion.

[Holy Lancer]

Honestly, this game sucks storywise. I'm not exactly sure what's going on. However, the gameplay is probably one of the best. The turn-based system was getting old. Not to mention that the license grid system was pretty fun to complete. What's even better is that you have SO MANY secret bosses and dungeons. Overall, it's a decent game.
I had heard that the main plotline is ridiculously short. I'm at the Tomb of Raithwall at the moment.

Regardless, I'm having an awful lot of fun on this game. Compared to X and X-2, Square have certainly redeemed themselves in my opinion.


FFX wasn't a bad game. The story was one of the best, Tidus's voice just killed too many scenes. The gameplay was ok, it wasn't great though. X-2 was just sad.

[rubah]

Personally, I've used a lot more offensive magic in this game than I have in previous ones.

It's probably a good thing the main storyline isn't longer than it is :( I've spent way too much time in this game already

[Old Manus]

X-2 was awful, so starting from there, I'd say this is a very good game.

[Renmiri]

It's probably a good thing the main storyline isn't longer than it is :( I've spent way too much time in this game already
Chaining fiends is addictive :D

[DK]

I have only clocked 10 hours so far, but for me everything apart from the graphics in this game is a step backward. I understand the need for change and variety in a series to keep it from getting stale, however, for me FFXII has made the wrong changes (so far).

Having said that, I'm enjoying it more than I thought I would.

I like Vaan the least of any main character in the entire series, though, which is a bit of a bummer.

[Hazzard]

Can you please elaborate what sort of 'bad' changes they've made in FFXII.
Cause I think most of the new stuff you can do in the game, is excellent, and i find my self playing more and more of it.

[No.78]

If you don't like it don't play it, what are you trying to achieve? Just go play some other game and stop whining... GOD

[Remon]

If you don't like it don't play it, what are you trying to achieve? Just go play some other game and stop whining... GOD
You are sooo right ;)

This game is NOT awfull :hot: for many reasons.

AWESOME Gameplay
Beautiful and huge places worth exploring
Tough optional boses who make the game worth playing(some fights last more than 4 hours)
The difficulty is medium(at least not it is not as easy as FFX2 and KH2)
Fran and her voice
The ending song is brilliant
The ending is brilliant
Not all characters suck(Larsa for example)


I know that it has some not cool things in it but it definately can NOT be defined as awful.
END

[Renmiri]

FFXII is very UNEVEN in my view: wonderful gameplay and weak story. Wonderful graphics and bland music. Fun, detailed sidequests and short, way too easy mandatory parts.

To find the good stuff in XII it definitely requires exploring, time and patience with the bland music, bland plot and bland characters. It is well worth it though, it is a fun game once you get past the hype and dissapointment with it :D

[Hazzard]

Most people say that the music in the game is plain, and not very good-but i think that it matches the time period quite well, and is effective. Maybe it could of been a bit more authentic, but overall it was alright-but not quite the best.

[CloudedSquall]

I've not been playing long but I've noticed a certain lack of "uhmph" about the music. It fits the mood; however, it hasn't particularly got me humming the theme when i'm in a dungeon/town and therefore takes away the nostalgic qualities that I found in other games.

[Setzer Gabianni]

The Boss Battle music is fucking amazing. :D

[Holy Lancer]

The Boss Battle music is smurfing amazing. :D

What he said! :choc2:

[Setzer Gabianni]

OH - someone who finally agrees with me ;D

[Yliette]

Concept is quite repetitive. Search for something, get captured, escape. Search for something, get captured, escape. I can never say for sure since I'm not yet that far into the game.

I have my Gambits disabled (having your party members stop to cast spells is so IRRITATING!!) except for Foe > Any = Attack. I'd rather manually cast spells and use items.

And yes, the music is monotonous to the core. Only trach I enjoyed is the Giza Plains.

In a nutshell, FFXII is great for an RPG but doesn't surpass expactations of a typical FF fan.

[Angel_from_hell]

They say that the first Final Fantasy game you ever play is the game that will be your favourite forever it will be the game you will love and never forget. To me and most of people I think this is true, my first Final Fantasy game where Final Fantasy 8 and almost directly I started to love it. After that I bought FF-X2 and realized that even that were a game that I started to like very much.

But FF-X2 could neve take the same place as my beloved FF8 and now have I started to play FF12 That to me is a fabolus game it is close to be as fabolous FF8 to me but not enough to reach the hights.
I think that you shouldn´t judge every Final Fantasy game after the game that were your first FF game ever because probably you will find faults everywere since it isn´t the same game as your first beloved FF game.

FF12 is as all of the FF games a true RPG game. It has everything a RPG player can dream of, sure it has it´s own faults but if you look closly on every other game you soon will notice that every game ever made will have its flaws.
When discussing games like FF games everyone has to think after before judging, what may be a flaw in a game to me can be a wonderful thing for someone else. We are all diffrent persons with diffrent personalitys we all have diffrent likes and dislikes and I think that they should be respected.

So starting a thread in a FF12 forum about how awful the game is are in my eyes a sign of disrespect to the people actually enjoying the game. The same thing could happen in your fav FF game forum and then you would become upset thinking that everyone saying anything bad about your fav game was wrong.

My opinion about FF12 is that it has a wonderful battle system that the other FF games lack of, the chance to actually see where the foe are and get a bigger chance to avoid the enemy if wished for is to me something wonderful I hate being forced into a battle everytime I take a step forward.

The characthers in FF12 is so alive and I just can´t stop loving them Balthier and Fran is the best characthers ever in my eyes together with some of the characthers from FF8.
Another thing I love is the fact that the citys actually looks like cities, that have populations it is more than 5 people living in each place.

FF12 is a fantastic game experience. There is so much more I could write but for the moment I don´t have any energy left to write.

[eternalshiva]

Anyone else notice that in the K woods, they're playing music from FFX-2? >_>;;;;; <3

I found FFXII addictive because of the simple fact it plays too much like FFXI and you don;t have to deal with retards. XD I'm a NM addict and I have 200 hours clocked in FFXII just hunting stuff lol, I just left archades for the first time, I think I'm like 70% into the game. The political intrigue in this game has me hooked. I really like the story line. I'm usually a big fan of romance in FF but in this one, I'm glad there wasn't any obvious one =) It would of messed up the story and the reasons as to why they were there >_> just my 2 cents though.

DK: Vaan's not the main character, he's just one of them. You get to see everyone's story evantually. Gotta start somewhere.

[Peter_20]

I always thought FFX suffered from the typical "hip syndrome".
It felt like that part had come to the point when it was focusing on impressing small children with a great interest for "cool" and "hip" stuff.

It was a nice game and all, but I kinda missed the serious atmosphere that was so apparent in FF4 and FF6.

FF7 also suffered from the "hip syndrome", by the way.

[GF_Diablos]

Having read this full thread (excluding spoilers since I ain't completed 12 yet) I just want to point out how pointless the argument is. No one has yet pointed out an objective reason why the game is good or bad, only "I don't like this music" and "FF(whatever) is better".
To me this seems like some pointless fan boy bashing "I hate it because it's new and I hate FFX or VII because it's popular".
Grow up.
ALL the Final Fantasy games are popular, you are not trendsetters by disliking the new ones. I have played all the games too but it doesn't make me dislike 12. The very fact that this game is different has (so far) meant I've really enjoyed it.
Also, you can't attack Square for trying to appeal to a wider audience, they are a company and want to make money, sorry if your too younger to understand this. If they make something a little different that may break into a slightly younger or casual gamer market and that's good because the company survives and we get more games from them.
I am sure this game is going to have flaws, all RPGs do, when I find one more serious than the silly practicality of licence boards (which I still like) I'll re-think my stance on the game but I know i'm never going to think it's terrible. For myself FFIX was the worst one but I still enjoyed playing it and I still think it had good points. If it's such a bad game why didn't you hear/read/see that to start with and not bother buying it or stop playing it after an hour?
I also think it's brave to take story arcs a different direction as they have in FFXII, all main characters with a different starting, but similar agenda as opposed to the main character recruiting or being recruited.

[dups1822]

Dont worry shadow, i completely agree with you. I stumbled upon this website this morning, and i had to register just to say that i did not like FFXII.

-No story
-No main charactor
-Vaan/Penello are annoying

I will give it props because of the battle system, and lisence grid. These two things, if used properly, could have made an excellent game! i just hope the same thing doesnt happen with FFXIII...

[Angel_from_hell]

Dont worry shadow, i completely agree with you. I stumbled upon this website this morning, and i had to register just to say that i did not like FFXII.

-No story
-No main charactor
-Vaan/Penello are annoying

I will give it props because of the battle system, and lisence grid. These two things, if used properly, could have made an excellent game! i just hope the same thing doesnt happen with FFXIII...

I think it is unrespect full to just register on this site to tell all the fans here that you didn´t like the game. If you dislike it so much then just stay away from this part off the eoff forum since you don´t belong here. Sure everyone has to have a chance to tell their opinion but I don´t think that anyone really cares what you think about the game honestly. People come here to get help, and to disscus, good and bad things in the game or talk about funny things. So don´t ruin it.

[Remon]

Dont worry shadow, i completely agree with you. I stumbled upon this website this morning, and i had to register just to say that i did not like FFXII.

-No story
-No main charactor
-Vaan/Penello are annoying

I will give it props because of the battle system, and lisence grid. These two things, if used properly, could have made an excellent game! i just hope the same thing doesnt happen with FFXIII...

I think it is unrespect full to just register on this site to tell all the fans here that you didn´t like the game. If you dislike it so much then just stay away from this part off the eoff forum since you don´t belong here. Sure everyone has to have a chance to tell their opinion but I don´t think that anyone really cares what you think about the game honestly. People come here to get help, and to disscus, good and bad things in the game or talk about funny things. So don´t ruin it.

I agree with Angel

Drups
you cant say it has NO story and NO characters cause it has...I guess it's your opinion but to me you are just ruining people's hard work.

[DM_Melkhar]

Honestly, this game sucks storywise. I'm not exactly sure what's going on. However, the gameplay is probably one of the best. The turn-based system was getting old. Not to mention that the license grid system was pretty fun to complete. What's even better is that you have SO MANY secret bosses and dungeons. Overall, it's a decent game.
I had heard that the main plotline is ridiculously short. I'm at the Tomb of Raithwall at the moment.

Regardless, I'm having an awful lot of fun on this game. Compared to X and X-2, Square have certainly redeemed themselves in my opinion.


FFX wasn't a bad game. The story was one of the best, Tidus's voice just killed too many scenes. The gameplay was ok, it wasn't great though. X-2 was just sad.
I'm not saying X was a bad game, and I agree that the storyline was very good. It was the gameplay that let it down for me. I liked Tidus, but his voice did get irritating after a while - and I found him to be rather selfish "This is MY story!" Yeah right, anyone else involved in the entire game? Yuna? Yes, she's technically the saviour of Spira and he tries to take all the glory.

I just think that XII has redeemed what failed X.

[Hazzard]

Honestly, this game sucks storywise. I'm not exactly sure what's going on. However, the gameplay is probably one of the best. The turn-based system was getting old. Not to mention that the license grid system was pretty fun to complete. What's even better is that you have SO MANY secret bosses and dungeons. Overall, it's a decent game.
I had heard that the main plotline is ridiculously short. I'm at the Tomb of Raithwall at the moment.

Regardless, I'm having an awful lot of fun on this game. Compared to X and X-2, Square have certainly redeemed themselves in my opinion.


FFX wasn't a bad game. The story was one of the best, Tidus's voice just killed too many scenes. The gameplay was ok, it wasn't great though. X-2 was just sad.
I'm not saying X was a bad game, and I agree that the storyline was very good. It was the gameplay that let it down for me. I liked Tidus, but his voice did get irritating after a while - and I found him to be rather selfish "This is MY story!" Yeah right, anyone else involved in the entire game? Yuna? Yes, she's technically the saviour of Spira and he tries to take all the glory.

I just think that XII has redeemed what failed X.


When Tidus says 'this is MY story', here's talking in referral to his own personal story, and is not being selfish. Just stating his emotions.
Plus every single one of them clearly have a story which their looking to fulfill.

Plus i don't really like the gameplay either, but the story was great and i thoroughly enjoyed the game, and the last battle music!!

FF12 is good! ( had to say that cause i was focusing on FF10 more)

[Renmiri]

Dont worry shadow, i completely agree with you. I stumbled upon this website this morning, and i had to register just to say that i did not like FFXII.

-No story
-No main charactor
-Vaan/Penello are annoying

I will give it props because of the battle system, and lisence grid. These two things, if used properly, could have made an excellent game! i just hope the same thing doesnt happen with FFXIII...

I agree with you.
I still like FFXII, gameplay is tons of fun, in spite of the bland music, story and characters. But when I think "what could have been" it pi$$es me off because music, storytelling and in depth characters are what SE mastered on.

People should be allowed to politely say what they like and dislike about a game. Me and you included.

[Wolf Kanno]

EDIT: God damn it, Wolf Kanno. Just smurfing post it. I want an argument going on in here - one that is heated and emotionally driven! I can't play devil's advocate forever as I am too detached from either side to really care.

Ok, since Nominus asked nicely (you can put the gun away now...) I'll post about this debate. Now, I pretty much agree completely with Angel_from_Hell about this topic and thread, especially since there is like 12 other threads just like this. (FFXII haters, either leave us alone or at least post in one of the old threads. Stop making new ones:mad: )

As for the debate about the story and characters. I'm really not in the mood to discuss it cause I've done this debate like 7 times now but here I go again...:rolleyes2

WARNING MAJOR SPOILERS!!!!
(Also, this is my personal opinion and perception of the story and cast. You are free to believe whatever you want;) )

The story, to me, is rather simple but I enjoyed it. I love political stories (a veteran of FFT and Suikoden I-V respectively). It's story is good but it doesn't have the political backstabbing I love so much. It's there it's just not "earth shattering" to the plot. The aspect of the story I really love is how the theme of "Freedom" and how it relates to everything. Dalmasca's struggle to regain it's own sovereignty and eventually mankind's struggle to gain freedom from the Occurians I aslo enjoyed the party retracing the steps of the Dynast-King and how "history repeating" itself plays in it overall.

It's easy to just say that FFXII's plot is just another "resistance versus evil empire/corporation/religious organization" but you miss out on the unique aspects of this journey. I don't mind similiar ideas and stories being repeated, as long as it tries to bring something new to it. It's not like all the FF plots are original (FFVIII being the last original story in the series, and FFV being the last before that.) I think XII does a good job cause it explores more grey area than the previous installments.

The Empire isn't evil, the resistance isn't necessarily good. I mean the Empire conquers Nalbida and Dalmasca so they can retrieve the secrets of the nethicite in hopes of using this knowledge to break free from the Occurians. The resistance is willing to join the Rozzarian Empire and start Ivalice's equivalent to a "World War" in order to regain the independance of a small insignifact country. A war that would have devastated that same country and kill countless innocent lives.

The story is simple but morally complex. The characters share this complexity within simplicity approach as well.

Vaan, is simply the "angry youth" who is rather naive about how the world really works. He's an idealist, who hates the empire and Basch for killing his only family; as well as subjagating and humiliating his homeland. Since he only grew up in a stifiling authoratative dictorship. Vaan of course dreams of being a "Sky Pirate" the last visage of freedom his world knows. It is only after he is caught with Balthier and learns the truth about Basch that he begins to see that the world doesn't live up to his perception of it. Being young, he quickly adapt but hangs onto some of his original "world view". It's not until after his extended time with Larsa that he begins to finally stop hating the empire. This of course brings me to Penelo.

Her relationship with Larsa, the symbolic last visage of good in Archades' aristocracy and the hope of a peaceful future, changes her perception of the empire. If Larsa is a noble and yet sympathetic and caring, then can Archades truly be the evil empire she was raised to believe it is? As the story goes, she quickly becomes the Imperial sympathizer who only wishes for peace, between all the kingdoms. She doesn't want Lady Ashe to destroy Archades, but she also wants to save her homeland. One scene in particular, defines why Vaan and Penelo are really there. Basch and Lady Ashe have a discussion about vengeance against the empire and Basch alludes to the growing relationship between Vaan, Penelo, and Larsa, and how we don't need animosity. These children are the hope of a peaceful future.

Basch, is pretty damn complex either way you look at him. A disgraced knight who failed to protect his kingdom, as well as being set up as the traitor who led to it's downfall. But Basch isn't angsty nor doesn he swear vengeance against those who took everything away from him; his only concern when he becomes free is to find the resistance and restore Dalmasca. He's a man who has lost much in his life, his homeland, his brother, and everything he cared about; all this before he even became a knight of Dalmasca. I feel it's due to his previous lost that Basch has learned what is truly important. Even though the resistance, his kingdom, and even Lady Ashe distrust him, he presses on. Why? Because all that matters is that he fights for himself. He fights for what he believes in and what matters most to him. His maturity and integrity is what truly makes him such a great character.

Fran, represents the resistance against the natural order. The irony is that being a Viera, she is naturally attuned to the world and feels the effects of the Humes going against the natural course. Her society is one of isolation and detachment. The Viera don't necessarily "live" in the world as much as they just exist within it. They don't participate with the events around them and instead stay in their own communities which can best be described as an "elvish convent". Fran represents an interesting sub-story that's mentioned mostly by talking to NPC's in the cities. The rise of Viera leaving the "Woods" to live in Hume society. Fran see's that their is more to the world and wishes to be free. She pays the ultimate price. She sacrifices her home and family in exchange for her personal freedom. To learn and to live. I feel it's this common circumstance that leads her to join with Balthier. Their pasts are very similiar.

Balthier is probably the other complex character in this story. His personality and actions are completely contradictory. He's a self proclaimed "gentleman thief" but he's associated with many low lifes and he's not afraid to do some unsavory things to get what he wants. He searches for great treasure and plunder, but his past shows that he was pretty well off. He once held to the idea of order and justice and now he is a renowned pirate who treasures his personal chaotic freedom more than anything. He says he hates his father but is driven to understand him. He strongly dislikes his homelands superficial society but there is a hint that he still loves his homeland despite it's flaws. He tries to come off as selfish and scheming but rather he is the first to sacrifice himself for others. Balthier is truly his own person. He embodies the freedom that many people like Vaan desire. I mean, what's not to love?

Lady Ashe's personal story is at the heart of this games story. She truly embodies the "human element" of the story. Her struggle between her personal desire and her duty as a figurehead was rather well executed. She fights to restore her kingdom for the sake of her people but she wrestles constantly with the side of her that wants to take revenge against the empire that killed her husband and destroyed her kingdom. In most RPGs, when the hero gains an item of immence power from the villains, they usually do the "righteous" thing and try to destroy it or hide it right away. Lady Ashe instead decides she wants to use it against her enemies. Her struggle to "do the right thing" is what makes her appealing. The journey is what shapes her ultimate decision. From retracing the steps of the Dynast-King and to see his own conflict which the history books left out. The haunting memory of her husband who supports her need for revenge. Watching Vaan and Penelo learn about the world and their small steps towards overcoming the history of bad blood between Dalmasca and Archades. Even Basch, who has just as much reason to get revenge and yet he has no animosity.He does what's important to him and the ones he loves. Balthier and Fran both show her the danger of the nethicite and each of their stories tell the consequences of using such power without restraint. It's all filled with ambiguity which I savor more than anything. Her journey, is more of a personal journey into the darkness that exist within us all.

I gave some arguments about it's story and characters. It's the conclusions I came to as I played through the game. But this is why I truly love the cast and story of FFXII. ;)

[Lynx]

wolf kanno i couldnt have put it any better myself that was perfect description of the characters and story made me realize things i dindt pick up on brought me tears of joy :cry: haha.

[Renmiri]

I agree with Wolf Kano's take on the characters but the storytelling is bloody awful and much of what WK noticed is mere conjecture because the dialogues and scenes contradict each other.

For example, let's take Basch, which was the only story that was ALMOST well told. We never find out what drives him until his last scene when he and Noah fight "to the death" and he says he protected "someone important and protect her I have" and after that he abandons the very thing that drove him, making no effort to attain it ? WTF ?!?!

Another example ? Ashe. She seems such a good character but every time I try to like her she does something lame. Like when Vaan tells Ashe "Who says anything about being strong, you have your friends" at a crucial moment yet the first thing Ashe does after her problems are resolved is ditch said friends. She just stays "Princess" and nothing changed after all they went through ? Lame! She just never rises to her potential.

Vaan grows up ? Yet all he does is be a pirate like he said he would be on scene 1 chapter 1. How grown up is that ? Disappointing.

Penelo ? Don't even know what she is doing there TBH. She starts as the responsible more mature counterpoint to Vaan and ends as... just another kid.

Larsa is the only likable character that is deep and well written for, and even him sounds too goody goody to be true, (But that didn't stop me from liking Yuna so I'll shut up ;) )

All in all, we see sketches of good characters and good plots that get dropped and go nowhere. The ideas were good, but execution faltered IMHO.

PS: Vayne was almost good but his speeches and theatrics at the end are completely out of synch with his silence until him killing his father. Had he been that garrulous since the beginning, or silent the whole game I might have liked the character as a villain. The way it was ? Something just didn't jive for me making his character not believable.

Dr. Cid was way over the top for me. But maybe it was just a bad voice actor, the dialog wasn't that bad, so I don't know for sure.

I guess the only two characters I found little flaw with where Balthier and Fran but, alas, Balthier annoys me to no end so I can't like the character. I have to admit it is taste not bad writing though :D

[Roto13]

Wolf Kanno is a better character analyst than you are. :bigsmile:

[Ashley Schovitz]

i AGREE THAT i'M DISSAPOINTED IN THE STORYLINE, BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE THE ENTIE GAME CRAP. IT'S STILL A FUN CHALLENGE, IF TOO LONG. oOPS LEFT CAPS ON DON'T FEEL iLIK eDITING.

[Gabranth]

drunk?

[Setzer Gabianni]

Dont worry shadow, i completely agree with you. I stumbled upon this website this morning, and i had to register just to say that i did not like FFXII.

-No story
-No main charactor
-Vaan/Penello are annoying

I will give it props because of the battle system, and lisence grid. These two things, if used properly, could have made an excellent game! i just hope the same thing doesnt happen with FFXIII...


Coming from someone who places X before VI..:greenie:

Of course there's a story. You just obviously didn't understand it.

There are main characters, pretty much everyone in the team is a main character as such. Just because you weren't stuck with one generic Hero, doesn't mean this was a flaw in the game. It gave people more freedom to do what they wanted.

Wolf Kanno owned you Renmiri. You couldn't make a better comeback.

You also stepped over the line wit this comment.

Dr. Cid was way over the top for me. But maybe it was just a bad voice actor, the dialog wasn't that bad, so I don't know for sure.

Our relationship is over. ;_;

[Wolf Kanno]

I agree with Wolf Kano's take on the characters but the storytelling is bloody awful and much of what WK noticed is mere conjecture because the dialogues and scenes contradict each other.

I don't believe the dialogue and scenes really contradict each other but I will agree with you that my description is based on my personal observations of the cast and story:D I'll try my best to give you some satisfying answers but I make no promises.


For example, let's take Basch, which was the only story that was ALMOST well told. We never find out what drives him until his last scene when he and Noah fight "to the death" and he says he protected "someone important and protect her I have" and after that he abandons the very thing that drove him, making no effort to attain it ? WTF ?!?!

First Basch did help restore Dalmasca, which is what he really wanted to do. So I would say he attained his original goal (your comment almost makes me believe you think he had a "thing" for Lady Ashe;) )Secondly, he did come to terms with his brother during the end of the game. He made a promise to him, I don't think Basch ever really hated his brother so it's not too far fetched to believe he would fulfill his dying wish. Thirdly, Dalmasca still remembers Basch as the "traitor" who plunged their homeland into Imperial rule. I don't think even Lady Ashe could have swayed them any differently. Basically, Basch didn't have any home to return to, Noah's dying wish was his best offer.


Another example ? Ashe. She seems such a good character but every time I try to like her she does something lame. Like when Vaan tells Ashe "Who says anything about being strong, you have your friends" at a crucial moment yet the first thing Ashe does after her problems are resolved is ditch said friends. She just stays "Princess" and nothing changed after all they went through ? Lame! She just never rises to her potential.

Lady Ashe is part of the royal family and unlike "other fantasy royalty" FFXII's is steeped with realism. She can't exactly be seen associating with "commoners" let alone four Sky Pirates and an infamous traitor to the throne. ;) Besides, no one will ever know the truth about the role her and the others played in the conflict until the Marquis' book gets published for public use. Historically royalty wasn't all "my way or the high way" they themselves are trapped within their own social chains. She's a figurehead and a leader before she is a human being. It's just how she was raised and it's what's expected of her.


Vaan grows up ? Yet all he does is be a pirate like he said he would be on scene 1 chapter 1. How grown up is that ? Disappointing.

Vaan matures based upon his view of the world, he starts off hating the empire without ever stopping to understand their view. By the end, he comes around and understands that the empire isn't completely evil. There are good people from the empire like Larsa and Balthier. I don't necessarily believe Vaan "grows up" but rather matures as the story moves along. He's a child in the beginning of the story and at the end he's still a child but slightly more wise about the world. It's unrealistic to believe that a character can have an "epiphany" and suddenly reach a level of maturity on par with an adult. It's gradual, and Vaan will probably continue to grow and mature as time goes by (most likely in Revnant Wings). I find this realism in his character growth to be one of the more appealing aspects of the story telling.


Penelo ? Don't even know what she is doing there TBH. She starts as the responsible more mature counterpoint to Vaan and ends as... just another kid.

Penelo is mostly their for symbolism as the "hope of the future". Her personal reasons are most likely to keep an eye on Vaan. That and I hardly believe she is so responsible that she was going to let Vaan have all the fun;) She's young as well you know.


Larsa is the only likable character that is deep and well written for, and even him sounds too goody goody to be true, (But that didn't stop me from liking Yuna so I'll shut up ;) )

He's a little too goody goody for me as well sometimes. I honestly kept waiting for him to kill Vayne and reveal he's the mastermind behind everything:p


PS: Vayne was almost good but his speeches and theatrics at the end are completely out of synch with his silence until him killing his father. Had he been that garrulous since the beginning, or silent the whole game I might have liked the character as a villain. The way it was ? Something just didn't jive for me making his character not believable.

The game pretty much tells you that Vayne is not being his usual self, besides I don't exactly feel his "speech" at Rababnastre is the work of a "silent" antagonist;) But it explains why the Senate was all up in arms about him. Hell, listening to his past and how he killed his older brothers to become the next successor gave me the impression that he's a little more than the conniving schemer we are led to believe. I mean his assassination of his father could have been done more cleanly and he also would have found another, less "flamboyant" way of gaining the nethicite instead of taking over two countries. He's intelligent but also arrogant.

Deep down, I think it all comes down to how we choose to see the story. I strongly believe that FFXII is game that gives as much as you are willing to put into it. Also, thanks for the support people! I hope my posts have been at least somewhat insightful.

[Markus. D]

You know what I LOVED about XII ?

Havint to beat the Espers / Summons to achieve them. Felt a lot more rewarding than those cloister of trials at FFX.

It gave me a sense of achievement that I kicked Zalera's butt, every time he pwned a fiend. Like "weak fiends die, but I won" :love: :love: :love:
Yeah but they are too easy to beat. I owned all the ones I faced so far and I'm about to go fight Chaos.

don't overlevel. simple.

[TyphoonThaReapa]

You know what I LOVED about XII ?

Havint to beat the Espers / Summons to achieve them. Felt a lot more rewarding than those cloister of trials at FFX.

It gave me a sense of achievement that I kicked Zalera's butt, every time he pwned a fiend. Like "weak fiends die, but I won" :love: :love: :love:
Yeah but they are too easy to beat. I owned all the ones I faced so far and I'm about to go fight Chaos.

don't overlevel. simple.

A'yo, I agree. These 'Esper' are TOO easy. I've had this game for over half a year now and it's so bad I decided NOT to end it and all I have to do is beat the Bahumat. And get this, I've only played one record. I've got Every esper, finished all but one hunt all in the first time I played. The battles are fun but the story suck and it's too easy. A new low.

[Renmiri]

I don't believe the dialogue and scenes really contradict each other but I will agree with you that my description is based on my personal observations of the cast and story:D I'll try my best to give you some satisfying answers but I make no promises.
Aye, you did. You should have written it, not the lame guys who did it :p


VayneThe game pretty much tells you that Vayne is not being his usual self, besides I don't exactly feel his "speech" at Rababnastre is the work of a "silent" antagonist;) But it explains why the Senate was all up in arms about him. Hell, listening to his past and how he killed his older brothers to become the next successor gave me the impression that he's a little more than the conniving schemer we are led to believe. I mean his assassination of his father could have been done more cleanly and he also would have found another, less "flamboyant" way of gaining the nethicite instead of taking over two countries. He's intelligent but also arrogant.

Deep down, I think it all comes down to how we choose to see the story. I strongly believe that FFXII is game that gives as much as you are willing to put into it. Also, thanks for the support people! I hope my posts have been at least somewhat insightful.

Interesting take about Vayne... I don't agree in this one, alas! He is very inconsistent IMHO, at first he invites Miguelo to drink with him and makes Imperial Guards be nice to the people in Rabanastre, then he is telling his cruisers to fire above the city regardelss of the innocent lives it will kill. It's like someone with Multiple Personality Disorder... :rolleyes2

Yes, it was very insightful and made me appreciate the game a bit more. I don't dislike the plot archs and ideas but I still think execution was dismal!!! Like you said, it takes effort - tons of love for the game - to "read" the story as it should have been told. ;)

You seen to write good and enjoy FFXII. Want to take my FFXII writing challenge ?
http://forums.eyesonff.com/showthread.php?t=102288

[DK]

ES: In that case, Vaan is just the worst character in the series period. :}

[Roto13]

I want Vaan's blood to flow, but he's the only character I find even remotely annoying, and that's an amazing thing. Larsa and Penelo should have been annoying beyond compare, but wow! They turned out ok!

[Renmiri]

Wolf Kanno owned you Renmiri. You couldn't make a better comeback.

He usually does, but it doesn't mean I won't keep trying to best him :p

You also stepped over the line wit this comment.

Dr. Cid was way over the top for me. But maybe it was just a bad voice actor, the dialog wasn't that bad, so I don't know for sure.

Our relationship is over. ;_;


:eek: :( Nooooo!!!! :eek: :(

Fine, for you I'll like Dr. Cid :p

[Roto13]

Dr. Cid is the best Cid anyway.

[Hazzard]

Erm, Larsa was actually really cool to my surprise and Penelo knew when to keep her gob shut, because she also knew that she shouldn't be there.
Vaan was good.

[Roto13]

Erm, Larsa was actually really cool to my surprise and Penelo knew when to keep her gob shut, because she also knew that she shouldn't be there.
Vaan was good.

When she first appeared and put her hands on her hips and leaned forward in a stereotypically bossy anime girl style I thought she was going to be terrible. Then she actually started saying stuff and she wasn't bad at all, thankfully.

[Nominus Experse]

I was very, very pleased when Penelo didn't turn out to be yet another Yuffie, Rikku, etc...

[Hazzard]

The only character i probably wouldn't like is Migelo, he's just too worried like. I admire Basch, because he's so official and reminds me of the great 'Auron'. Fran is sexy. Vaan is cool. Balthier is the perfect gentleman and knows how to charm his way out of trouble. Ashe is not some flashy hoe. Penelo knows her place (Shutting up).
Good characters overall!

[Shadow8017]

EDIT: God damn it, Wolf Kanno. Just smurfing post it. I want an argument going on in here - one that is heated and emotionally driven! I can't play devil's advocate forever as I am too detached from either side to really care.

Ok, since Nominus asked nicely (you can put the gun away now...) I'll post about this debate. Now, I pretty much agree completely with Angel_from_Hell about this topic and thread, especially since there is like 12 other threads just like this. (FFXII haters, either leave us alone or at least post in one of the old threads. Stop making new ones:mad: )

As for the debate about the story and characters. I'm really not in the mood to discuss it cause I've done this debate like 7 times now but here I go again...:rolleyes2

WARNING MAJOR SPOILERS!!!!
(Also, this is my personal opinion and perception of the story and cast. You are free to believe whatever you want;) )

The story, to me, is rather simple but I enjoyed it. I love political stories (a veteran of FFT and Suikoden I-V respectively). It's story is good but it doesn't have the political backstabbing I love so much. It's there it's just not "earth shattering" to the plot. The aspect of the story I really love is how the theme of "Freedom" and how it relates to everything. Dalmasca's struggle to regain it's own sovereignty and eventually mankind's struggle to gain freedom from the Occurians I aslo enjoyed the party retracing the steps of the Dynast-King and how "history repeating" itself plays in it overall.

It's easy to just say that FFXII's plot is just another "resistance versus evil empire/corporation/religious organization" but you miss out on the unique aspects of this journey. I don't mind similiar ideas and stories being repeated, as long as it tries to bring something new to it. It's not like all the FF plots are original (FFVIII being the last original story in the series, and FFV being the last before that.) I think XII does a good job cause it explores more grey area than the previous installments.

The Empire isn't evil, the resistance isn't necessarily good. I mean the Empire conquers Nalbida and Dalmasca so they can retrieve the secrets of the nethicite in hopes of using this knowledge to break free from the Occurians. The resistance is willing to join the Rozzarian Empire and start Ivalice's equivalent to a "World War" in order to regain the independance of a small insignifact country. A war that would have devastated that same country and kill countless innocent lives.

The story is simple but morally complex. The characters share this complexity within simplicity approach as well.

Vaan, is simply the "angry youth" who is rather naive about how the world really works. He's an idealist, who hates the empire and Basch for killing his only family; as well as subjagating and humiliating his homeland. Since he only grew up in a stifiling authoratative dictorship. Vaan of course dreams of being a "Sky Pirate" the last visage of freedom his world knows. It is only after he is caught with Balthier and learns the truth about Basch that he begins to see that the world doesn't live up to his perception of it. Being young, he quickly adapt but hangs onto some of his original "world view". It's not until after his extended time with Larsa that he begins to finally stop hating the empire. This of course brings me to Penelo.

Her relationship with Larsa, the symbolic last visage of good in Archades' aristocracy and the hope of a peaceful future, changes her perception of the empire. If Larsa is a noble and yet sympathetic and caring, then can Archades truly be the evil empire she was raised to believe it is? As the story goes, she quickly becomes the Imperial sympathizer who only wishes for peace, between all the kingdoms. She doesn't want Lady Ashe to destroy Archades, but she also wants to save her homeland. One scene in particular, defines why Vaan and Penelo are really there. Basch and Lady Ashe have a discussion about vengeance against the empire and Basch alludes to the growing relationship between Vaan, Penelo, and Larsa, and how we don't need animosity. These children are the hope of a peaceful future.

Basch, is pretty damn complex either way you look at him. A disgraced knight who failed to protect his kingdom, as well as being set up as the traitor who led to it's downfall. But Basch isn't angsty nor doesn he swear vengeance against those who took everything away from him; his only concern when he becomes free is to find the resistance and restore Dalmasca. He's a man who has lost much in his life, his homeland, his brother, and everything he cared about; all this before he even became a knight of Dalmasca. I feel it's due to his previous lost that Basch has learned what is truly important. Even though the resistance, his kingdom, and even Lady Ashe distrust him, he presses on. Why? Because all that matters is that he fights for himself. He fights for what he believes in and what matters most to him. His maturity and integrity is what truly makes him such a great character.

Fran, represents the resistance against the natural order. The irony is that being a Viera, she is naturally attuned to the world and feels the effects of the Humes going against the natural course. Her society is one of isolation and detachment. The Viera don't necessarily "live" in the world as much as they just exist within it. They don't participate with the events around them and instead stay in their own communities which can best be described as an "elvish convent". Fran represents an interesting sub-story that's mentioned mostly by talking to NPC's in the cities. The rise of Viera leaving the "Woods" to live in Hume society. Fran see's that their is more to the world and wishes to be free. She pays the ultimate price. She sacrifices her home and family in exchange for her personal freedom. To learn and to live. I feel it's this common circumstance that leads her to join with Balthier. Their pasts are very similiar.

Balthier is probably the other complex character in this story. His personality and actions are completely contradictory. He's a self proclaimed "gentleman thief" but he's associated with many low lifes and he's not afraid to do some unsavory things to get what he wants. He searches for great treasure and plunder, but his past shows that he was pretty well off. He once held to the idea of order and justice and now he is a renowned pirate who treasures his personal chaotic freedom more than anything. He says he hates his father but is driven to understand him. He strongly dislikes his homelands superficial society but there is a hint that he still loves his homeland despite it's flaws. He tries to come off as selfish and scheming but rather he is the first to sacrifice himself for others. Balthier is truly his own person. He embodies the freedom that many people like Vaan desire. I mean, what's not to love?

Lady Ashe's personal story is at the heart of this games story. She truly embodies the "human element" of the story. Her struggle between her personal desire and her duty as a figurehead was rather well executed. She fights to restore her kingdom for the sake of her people but she wrestles constantly with the side of her that wants to take revenge against the empire that killed her husband and destroyed her kingdom. In most RPGs, when the hero gains an item of immence power from the villains, they usually do the "righteous" thing and try to destroy it or hide it right away. Lady Ashe instead decides she wants to use it against her enemies. Her struggle to "do the right thing" is what makes her appealing. The journey is what shapes her ultimate decision. From retracing the steps of the Dynast-King and to see his own conflict which the history books left out. The haunting memory of her husband who supports her need for revenge. Watching Vaan and Penelo learn about the world and their small steps towards overcoming the history of bad blood between Dalmasca and Archades. Even Basch, who has just as much reason to get revenge and yet he has no animosity.He does what's important to him and the ones he loves. Balthier and Fran both show her the danger of the nethicite and each of their stories tell the consequences of using such power without restraint. It's all filled with ambiguity which I savor more than anything. Her journey, is more of a personal journey into the darkness that exist within us all.

I gave some arguments about it's story and characters. It's the conclusions I came to as I played through the game. But this is why I truly love the cast and story of FFXII. ;)

Wolf Kanno - Bravo. Those were some superb character anaylses, really they were quite insightful, admittedly some of the things you commented on I missed during my first play-through. I can tell you've made this argument before in a previous forum. However, good descriptions of characters still doesn't invalidate my experience that ultimately these characters were lacking that level of attention that I've come to expect. Instead of long heated dialogues shared amongst the main party, I felt like what I got was brief little quips here and there ... with most of it being pretty insignifcant. Instead of utilizing cutscenes in a way that is advantageous to capturing key moments in the character's evolution, what I got was cgi cutscenes arbitrarily interspersed - often for no discernable reason other than showing off the game's pretty graphics. This is all pertinent as it pertains to the game's failure to deliver strong memorable character development.

Even you should be able to admit that the character dynamics in FFXII are on a much subtler level than what we're used to.

[Wolf Kanno]

Wolf Kanno - Bravo. Those were some superb character anaylses, really they were quite insightful, admittedly some of the things you commented on I missed during my first play-through. I can tell you've made this argument before in a previous forum. However, good descriptions of characters still doesn't invalidate my experience that ultimately these characters were lacking that level of attention that I've come to expect. Instead of long heated dialogues shared amongst the main party, I felt like what I got was brief little quips here and there ... with most of it being pretty insignifcant. Instead of utilizing cutscenes in a way that is advantageous to capturing key moments in the character's evolution, what I got was cgi cutscenes arbitrarily interspersed - often for no discernable reason other than showing off the game's pretty graphics. This is all pertinent as it pertains to the game's failure to deliver strong memorable character development.

Even you should be able to admit that the character dynamics in FFXII are on a much subtler level than what we're used to.

I agree they are more subtle, I just don't agree with this being a bad thing. I generally perfer subtle character growth and exchanges over drawn out melodrama. Neither is bad, it's just that both tend to rub people the wrong way if it's done to either extreme. For games like FFVIII and FFX, I feel the melodrama was too cheesy and felt more like some horrible TV soap opera. For FFXII, it feels to some like the cast is withdrawn from the story and are being used more as a means to an end rather than being percieved as living breathing people the player can relate to.

I mean, we've seen both styles of writing before being used flawlessly. FFVI is drawn out melodrama that is beautifully done, it's still the cast I care the most about. On the other spectrum we have FFT, which has a more subtle style of dealing with character growth. I still believe to this day that Ramza Belouve is the greatest and most complex character to come out of the FF series.

The best I can do is give you a better insight in how I percieved the story and characters. I don't believe I can really change your mind on how you feel about the game but I at least gave you something to watch for if you ever decide to try and "stomache" your way through the game again;)

As for Vayne, Renmiri, I also feel he could have been done a little better. I never really believed him to be a villain (an asshole maybe...) but I don't really feel like he's a wonderful antagonist either. He's sorta've like Seymore in a sense. He's there to be a chatty villain (or antagonist in this case) The real odd thing about Vayne, is that up until you reach the final dungeon, he came off to me, like he was doing all this to prepare Larsa. Like he purposely chose to become the "villain" so Larsa would become a better ruler. This all goes out the window once you reach the final battle though...

[Setzer Gabianni]

Roto speaks the truth, and Renmiri, thank you :3

Wolf Kanno, this is for you: ♥

[Rodney]

False. This game is great.

The storyline was a great concept and whatnot, and I think extremely original. It just had bad pacing.

Lack of character development? I thought there was a fair decent amount, actually. And the characters were all likeable, to me anyway, and XII is one of the only FFs to have a cast that I enjoy in it's entirety.

I don't feel there were too many cutscenes either, because I was never really bored.

Either way, the good out weight the bad, and with the hundreds of extra things to do I really do like this game.
I agree with all this. I love this game! Sure, I still think VII's probably the best game in the series -- nothing will ever change that -- but I put this game right up there with it.

Only thing is, in terms of character development, I think the only two characters who didn't get any of that were Vaan and Penelo.

[Nominus Experse]

I wonder if Square attempted to draw more attention to the greater happenings of the story, such as the politics and the like that were unfolding, by having less attention given to the characters.

In some FFs, it seemed there was more character developement than that of the actual occurances of the story itself. Sometimes this worked, and other times it did not.

This FF is a break from many things typical of FFs from FFVII on up to FFX, so it might be true.

I'm not sure though.

[blim]

20 hours in now and i'm loving it, thats all

[DK]

I want Vaan's blood to flow, but he's the only character I find even remotely annoying, and that's an amazing thing. Larsa and Penelo should have been annoying beyond compare, but wow! They turned out ok!

Larsa I like, but I don't like Penelo either. But Vaan is still the worst. He must be eliminated. It's just a shame that the only place he doesn't suck is statswise/in battle, otherwise I just wouldn't use him. :{

[Hazzard]

From day 1 when i played as Vaan, i made a commitment with him that i would give him more special attention than the others, thus making him the leader and the best!!!

[I Don't Need A Name]

I want Vaan's blood to flow, but he's the only character I find even remotely annoying, and that's an amazing thing. Larsa and Penelo should have been annoying beyond compare, but wow! They turned out ok!

Larsa I like, but I don't like Penelo either. But Vaan is still the worst. He must be eliminated. It's just a shame that the only place he doesn't suck is statswise/in battle, otherwise I just wouldn't use him. :{

yeah, i wouldnt use him either, but, as it happened in FFX as well, i use him, even when i dont have to, because, in essance, he is the team leader and i am used to them being in the party

[Renmiri]

Basch or Ashe are my team leaders :D

[Setzer Gabianni]

Basch or Ashe are my team leaders :D

Basch is Captain, therefore he should always be leader :bigsmile:

[CStrife]

What do you know! It's reality time!

One of the things I enjoy about RPG's in general, and about FF's specifically, is the process of building the characters and covering the entire game world with a fine-tooth comb. In this respect, at least, FFXII does pretty well.

Towards the end of the game, you start to get a sense that things are coming to a head, and as I realized this fact I thought, "This better not be the end! There is just no way they could wrap the whole thing up so shortly." Hence my disappointment.

It is possible to spend a lot of time (a lot of hours) making your way through the game, but "high number of hours" does not equal "adequate development." I think the development team got lost on their way to include everything plus the kitchen sink in this game, and completely forgot about the overall experience.

The whole license board thing seemed to me a flawed imitation of the sphere grid. Collecting gil is tedious- spending hours just to obtain enough to keep up with the tons of superfluous equipment being dumped into the shops.

Anyway, I truly wouldn't mind a return to the PS1 platform FF's. I'm happy to stand in an unrealistic line during battle if it means more attention would be paid to what's really important.
I couldn´t have said it better my self...

[f f freak]

Okay I haven't read all the other posts because I'm too lazy and because I only care about me. I love this game. I've only had it a little while but I thought the characters were pretty good and their designs were awesome. The first time I saw Ashe I felt a strange tingle that is not natural on so many levels.

The scenery is amazing. I ran around Rabanastre for about an hour taking eveything in. Giza plains was amazing being able to see all the dark crystals when you weren't on the same screen. I thought that the Ogir-Yensa sandsea was good as well.

The monsters were brilliant. The fact you could lead a weak monster to a strong one and let the strong one kill it was cool even though not many of the monsters do that. The designs of them were amazing(Apart from Tiamat) and they had a great AI.

Espers were really cool as well (Even though I only have Belias). Even though you can't control them they still done the moves that I would have done in that situation. Their Gambits were set up perfectly.

I'll post more later.

[chrisfffan]

how can u compare this game to X? X is nothing compared to this

[Wolf Kanno]

I wonder if Square attempted to draw more attention to the greater happenings of the story, such as the politics and the like that were unfolding, by having less attention given to the characters.

In some FFs, it seemed there was more character developement than that of the actual occurances of the story itself. Sometimes this worked, and other times it did not.

This FF is a break from many things typical of FFs from FFVII on up to FFX, so it might be true.

I'm not sure though.

I've said before that FFXII is the "anti-FFX" and it's not just to be an insult. The storytelling is very different from each other. FFX is told from Tidus' perspective, a rather "personal narrative". His journey is simply to "get to Zanarkand and stop Sin" the story never really alters much and is told rather simplistically, what Tidus mostly recounts is the going ons of the journey, the places he see's the people he meets and the friendships and relationships he forms with Yuna and her guardians. Because of this, FFX is completely character driven, moreso than previous FFs.

On the other hand, FFXII is told in an "objective narrative". The story is told by Marquis Ondore IV. A man you may remember actually spends little time with your party. He is most likely recounting what Lady Ashe told him and thus his story is more focused on the historical ascpect of what happened. This would also explain why the story also focuses on Lady Ashe the most. Not only becuase of her relationship with the Marquis but because he most likely recieved the account from her. You ever noticed that most of the actual character scenes revolve around her perspective?

I do feel the lack of "quality time" (as sickening as I usually find it in RPGs:rolleyes2 ) was due to the writers wanting the player to stay focused on the story.

[Renmiri]

The scenario designer (what SE calls their writers) said on his interview that he tried to "not decide who is right", as far as Ashe and her opponent, leaving that decision to the players. He also mentioned that he wanted to stay clear of the extremes (good or evil). XII good characters have some problems and the bad characters have some kindness.

Which is an interesting thing to do but failed IMHO. During the Pharos ascent, the darn Occurian pedestals had so many arrogant messages I wanted to side against the Occuria ;) but the game would not let me. So why make you want to help the guy you have to eventually kill ? Weird. And then at the end the "kind" villain wants to kill hundreds ? what kind of kindness is that ? Felt forced and not "real" IMHO.

[Wolf Kanno]

The scenario designer (what SE calls their writers) said on his interview that he tried to "not decide who is right", as far as Ashe and her opponent, leaving that decision to the players. He also mentioned that he wanted to stay clear of the extremes (good or evil). XII good characters have some problems and the bad characters have some kindness.

Which is an interesting thing to do but failed IMHO. During the Pharos ascent, the darn Occurian pedestals had so many arrogant messages I wanted to side against the Occuria ;) but the game would not let me. So why make you want to help the guy you have to eventually kill ? Weird. And then at the end the "kind" villain wants to kill hundreds ? what kind of kindness is that ? Felt forced and not "real" IMHO.

Lady Ashe chose to fight for herself. She decided to do her own part to stop the Occurians so the party didn't really side with them, of anything they helped Vayne by wiping out the last of Occurians Nethicite. Your party ultimately decided to be on their own side, they disliked the rule of the Occurians but also hated Vayne for his dubious methods...

[KasaiDraco]

This game is awesome! Whoever doesn't like this game is nuts! Yeah, the story sucks, but the gameplay makes up for that, I think.

[Renmiri]

This game is awesome! Whoever doesn't like this game is nuts! Yeah, the story sucks, but the gameplay makes up for that, I think.

:p Fair enough, I agree :p

[Setzer Gabianni]

Guess what? I don't :bigsmile: Well about the story bit anyway :bigsmile::bigsmile:

[chrisfffan]

1. their is a story it is hard to understand though i had to watch the videos a few times.

2. their is a main character but compared to in other ff he isn’t as prominent.

3. I agree with somebody else who posted that you shouldn’t judge a new ff by your favourite ff its usually the first one you have played and I think if you had played this one before the others it would probably be your favourite.

It would be interesting if somebody who has only played this ff would give his or her views about the game.

[f f freak]

2. their is a main character but compared to in other ff he isn’t as prominent.

Well they aren't really a main character if, gee they aren't the main character.

[chrisfffan]

vaan is the main man

[Nominus Experse]

If you play through the game, you'll realize that FFXII is largely devoid of any main character.

[chrisfffan]

i am only up to the forest at the moment where you have larrsa in your party

[Wolf Kanno]

FFXII has no official main character. If it did, and you had to base it on story. It's Lady Ashe who is the actual main character IMHO but everyone gets their shining moment in the game. Especially during the ending;)

[six underground]

it doesn't feel to have the magic such games as FF6 and FF7 (and wild arms 1) brought :):greenie:

[Setzer Gabianni]

it doesn't feel to have the magic such games as FF6 and FF7 (and wild arms 1) brought :):greenie:

Explain please. I get rather edgy when people post that and then go away. :love:

[f f freak]

it doesn't feel to have the magic such games as FF6 and FF7 (and wild arms 1) brought

Really? I thought it had more magic. It had White, Black, Acrane, Green you get where I'm going right?

[Hazzard]

It didn't have more magic-it just categorized it into different sets of magic. The only things which were really knew to the player system was maybe the abilities.

[Renmiri]

Maybe he was referring to the "magic" brought by cool characters and romantic love stories ?

[Hazzard]

Ohhh that's actually quite true, where is the magic!!!
Most of the other FF's had it and this one doesn't, I'm kinda put off the game now...

[Nominus Experse]

I wonder... if this game didn't have Final Fantasy as its title, would people still be complaining as they are?

[Renmiri]

Probably not. Because it does we expect more.

[Paul]

FFXII is a great game and in many ways is a lot more of a true Final Fantasy game than many of its predecessors. FF7 was a landmark title in the series, but its success set in motion a series of conventions within the series which kind of missed the point. it became more important to tell a story of ridiculous drama, no matter how contrived the circumstances, no matter how bizarre the characters motives or histories. everything became linear and the world was on rails. challenge was removed so that there was no obstruction for the gamer from getting to the next beautiful CGI. it was more important for the scenery to be quirky than remotely believable or atmospheric. by the time we got to FF9, we were having characters discover shocking revelations, JUST BECAUSE their template for storytelling dictated it needed to be done, with no thought put into why or how! FFX was even worse in this respect, it was like they knew people liked the twists from FF7, so they tried to come up with things so stupid that no one could see them coming!

FFXII has tried to turn the series into a game again, rather than an interactive storybook. besides this, i'm an adult now and i find a story about nations going to war far more interesting and believable than aliens, time witches or unsent natural disasters

[Renmiri]

Adults read books. Like the Roman Empire history or Alexandre Dumas or Hamlet or... Even watch Leonardo Di Caprio in the Man on the Iron Mask...

The political intrigue told in XII has been told many other times, a lot better and even happened in reality once or twice. ;)

The previous FFs had an original inovative story. This one just reheated some old and tired leftovers

[Paul]

Adults read books. Like the Roman Empire history or Alexandre Dumas or Hamlet or... Even watch Leonardo Di Caprio in the Man on the Iron Mask...

The political intrigue told in XII has been told many other times, a lot better and even happened in reality once or twice. ;)

The previous FFs had an original inovative story. This one just reheated some old and tired leftovers
nah i'm sorry, i love the final fantasy series, i've played them all... but as for stories, after 7 it was all going downhill... 8 had lots of holes and was a bit too teen drama series. 9 was just a bit random and didn't really explain itself properly, though it was also quite light hearted so it wasn't a total disaster. by 10 though it was really becoming ridiculous, every aspect of the story, dialogue, character interaction and everything else was cringeworthy.

each of these games had good gameplay but the stories were getting laughably bad. especially 10. the fact that FF12 has done its best to be completely different from 10 is a masterstroke for the series.

[Renmiri]

A matter of taste, to each his own.

I just reacted to your "adult" comment, because I met some FFXII fans that tend to insult anyone who doesn't love it to death with things like: It's for grownups whoever doesn't like it is immature! The story is so groundbreaking, yadda, yadda. The XII story is only groundbreakingfor someone who has never studied history or ever read a book ;)

[Wolf Kanno]

Adults read books. Like the Roman Empire history or Alexandre Dumas or Hamlet or... Even watch Leonardo Di Caprio in the Man on the Iron Mask...

The political intrigue told in XII has been told many other times, a lot better and even happened in reality once or twice. ;)

The previous FFs had an original inovative story. This one just reheated some old and tired leftovers

You, know it think it's funny that you have to insult FFXII's plot by comparing it to classic literature (a videogame with a story close to Shakespeares' works? That's almost a compliment;) Well except the Leonardo Di Caprio part:rolleyes2

As for your bottom quote, the last FF to have an original story within the main series was FFVIII (as bizarre as it's plot is...) and before that, it was FFV. FFX's plot is based on Japanese legends and folktales, FFIX's has a reference to almost every game in the series but mostly follows IV and VII's plot. VII's plot heavily borrows elements used in the Seiken Denestsu and Chrono Trigger games (basically all of it) to where it loses most of it's originality. VI's plot (as much as I love this game) borrows elements from FFII and Star Wars.

In fact, most of the series is guilty of borrowing from Star Wars, but Star Wars is guilty of borrowing from classic literature and Asian lore as well so we kinda go full circle here. It's not really about originality in the story, it's about originality in how you tell it.

I'm with Paul on my feelings of FFXII and the series as a whole. I don't hate the later games but I noticed what Paul mentioned about the gameplay element being dumbed down and the over the top stories and characters I don't care about. My favorite thing about the early games (FFI-FFV) is the exploration aspect of the game. I liked traveling around and seeing what secrets I could find, to me, it's a defining element of the RPG expereience. It's something that has disappeared in the series since the PS1 era and it's been getting worse.

FFXII proved to me that a game like the old days is still possible. It's not about mini-games or one secret dungeon with an "uber boss" to defeat. I want entire cities and several locations and dungeons that are completely optional and have no significant importance to the story.

Also... Love stories? Dear god are they really that important? I haven't been impressed with a love story in the series since FFVII. Besides the market of JRPG's are saturated with this junk. I think it was good of FFXII to be rid of it for awhile.

[Setzer Gabianni]

Adults read books. Like the Roman Empire history or Alexandre Dumas or Hamlet or... Even watch Leonardo Di Caprio in the Man on the Iron Mask...

The political intrigue told in XII has been told many other times, a lot better and even happened in reality once or twice. ;)

The previous FFs had an original inovative story. This one just reheated some old and tired leftovers

You, know it think it's funny that you have to insult FFXII's plot by comparing it to classic literature (a videogame with a story close to Shakespeares' works? That's almost a compliment;) Well except the Leonardo Di Caprio part:rolleyes2

As for your bottom quote, the last FF to have an original story within the main series was FFVIII (as bizarre as it's plot is...) and before that, it was FFV. FFX's plot is based on Japanese legends and folktales, FFIX's has a reference to almost every game in the series but mostly follows IV and VII's plot. VII's plot heavily borrows elements used in the Seiken Denestsu and Chrono Trigger games (basically all of it) to where it loses most of it's originality. VI's plot (as much as I love this game) borrows elements from FFII and Star Wars.

In fact, most of the series is guilty of borrowing from Star Wars, but Star Wars is guilty of borrowing from classic literature and Asian lore as well so we kinda go full circle here. It's not really about originality in the story, it's about originality in how you tell it.

I'm with Paul on my feelings of FFXII and the series as a whole. I don't hate the later games but I noticed what Paul mentioned about the gameplay element being dumbed down and the over the top stories and characters I don't care about. My favorite thing about the early games (FFI-FFV) is the exploration aspect of the game. I liked traveling around and seeing what secrets I could find, to me, it's a defining element of the RPG expereience. It's something that has disappeared in the series since the PS1 era and it's been getting worse.

FFXII proved to me that a game like the old days is still possible. It's not about mini-games or one secret dungeon with an "uber boss" to defeat. I want entire cities and several locations and dungeons that are completely optional and have no significant importance to the story.

Also... Love stories? Dear god are they really that important? I haven't been impressed with a love story in the series since FFVII. Besides the market of JRPG's are saturated with this junk. I think it was good of FFXII to be rid of it for awhile.

Wolf Kanno for president. :mog:

[LunarWeaver]

I am still quite taken aback that so many were upset over the lack of love story. I belong to another forum where they were talking about it, and some of them were saying things like "Final Fantasy is all ABOUT a love story. Without one, it isn't even Final Fantasy." Wha~?

After five games in a row (minus XI and counting X-2) with very dominant love themes, I think it's refreshing they kept away from it.

[Paul]

After five games in a row (minus XI and counting X-2) with very dominant love themes, I think it's refreshing they kept away from it.
yeah this is the kind of fan you end up with when they've grown up playing FF8, 9 and 10. in other words they have no idea what makes this series great and they would rather watch an anime version of cinderella 99 times than experience something worthwhile.

wolf kanno: said it better than i could mate

[Hazzard]

i'm sure that Vaan is infatuated by Penelo, and there's gonna be summin goin on in the love department between the two...!!!

[Wolf Kanno]

i'm sure that Vaan is infatuated by Penelo, and there's gonna be summin goin on in the love department between the two...!!!


If you want the truth...
It's mostly hinted that Vaan and Penelo are an item and even more debatedly the pairing of Fran and Balthier... But you never get a scene where you see the pairs declare their love or start smooching. In that sense the characters could also be percieved to be just good friends.

Vaan and Penelo though do have stronger hints to being in an relationship. A few of the NPC's in Rabanastre allude to the fact that the two at least have crushes on each other.

As for Fran and Balthier, it's more difficult to say. But there is a huge... thread dedicated to that subject.

[Setzer Gabianni]

The wikipedia article on RW, last suggested they were becoming more of an item :O

[Hazzard]

i'm sure that Vaan is infatuated by Penelo, and there's gonna be summin goin on in the love department between the two...!!!


If you want the truth...
It's mostly hinted that Vaan and Penelo are an item and even more debatedly the pairing of Fran and Balthier... But you never get a scene where you see the pairs declare their love or start smooching. In that sense the characters could also be percieved to be just good friends.

Vaan and Penelo though do have stronger hints to being in an relationship. A few of the NPC's in Rabanastre allude to the fact that the two at least have crushes on each other.

As for Fran and Balthier, it's more difficult to say. But there is a huge... thread dedicated to that subject.


Nahhh, there just strictly partners who happen to know a lot about each other in depth. People jump to quick to say 'love' between a man and a woman-But Vaan and Penelo are obviously falling for each other, probably just hormones!:D

[Renmiri]

I thought Larsa and Penelo were more of an item than Vaan ad Penelo.

Meh... After Wolf Kano and others with similar arguments spent 4 months explaining the story for me, I realized that FFXII story arch is OK but pretty beatean up already by George Lucas, Leonardo de Caprio (playing what Alexandre Dumas wrote), and many other authors... including Shakespeare, who not surprisingly did a much better job of telling it. ;)

Which doesn't change the fact that the story teling, i.e. dialogues and pacing, is dismal. This has been debated to death, I don't want to repeat it but I think that after 3 continents played the game and gamers in all 3 continents noticed the same thing it is pretty undeniable that something is off with the story telling.

Who cares ? FFXII is a good game in spite of it, at least to me. I'm just relieved it wasn't just me being picky, immature, or missing animated Cinderela 99! ;)

[Paul]

well i can't say the pacing is perfect, but the dialogues are a million miles better than FF10.

FF10 is like
Tidus: you know.. sometimes i just feel... empty...
Yuna: oh tidus me too... lets write poetry

[Gabranth]

lol you hit it right on the spot

[The Mog Ninja]

I agree, I just got this game and it is the worst game I have ever played, and I've played about 150 games. The battle system is tedious and leveling up takes forever. The story moves too slowly and Vaan is ugly!

[Gabranth]

oh i was talking about paul's ffx dialogue. i like ffxii. er..were you replying to my post in the first place?

[The Mog Ninja]

No I wasn't I'm just saying this game is awful. XD

[Hazzard]

Certain people are too negative about this game, it's not half bad-in fact it's really good, except for the fact that i get tired quickly from leveling up.

[The Mog Ninja]

Yes, because a slow story, slow pacing, slow leveling up and a terrible battle system makes a "not half-bad game"

[Raebus]

Yes, because a slow story, slow pacing, slow leveling up and a terrible battle system makes a "not half-bad game"

I've bolded the areas where I think you're talking alot of human waste. The story might be slow but slow leveling? You just have to find the right area.

Ps, the battle system = Better than every other battle system in previous ff games, it MAKES me want to find battles and its enjoyable for once. Death to the screen going into black and coming up with a row of characters not moving at all except for attacks and such.

[The Mog Ninja]

Maybe you liked it but I absolutely hated the battle system

[Wuggly Blight]

The leveling in this game is awful, the worst ever, as well as if you throw in the stupidity of the high monster level curb....
The summons was so weak they was literally pointless, the music was boring and naff its epic elevator music. story slow, bad pacing and reheated scraps. Theres no character development, Im starting to think Square is afraid now to have the main character to involved in a plot. Im not even sure why Vaan Fran and Penalo and even there.

[Hazzard]

You lot need to learn to appreciate a challenge more often, there's always going to be a stronger monster in an area full of monsters. They won't always be low-level and be of the same kind, it varies. That's what makes the game so interesting and different from previous FF'S-the fact that the fiends in a certain area are not so predictable, but leave you wondering if your capable of taking them out. I find that realistic and a good factor to the game.

[Wuggly Blight]

Not when they all skyrocket and you have to spend a entire day monotomusly leveling up for a boss every single area every single boss, Thats not a challange, thats boring, badly planned, and not even made for the average gamer.

[Setzer Gabianni]

Hah. Whatever you say. It's a better battle then some of the ones we've had in the past.

KHK - lol at you.

[Garnie]

i totally agree with ya. BRING BACK THE RANDOM BATTLES!! i was gutted with ff XII, as a true ff fan i exspected it to be pack jamed with good storylines but the only good thing about it is Balthier and the nice cg. Hopefully square might take a look at this and think to them selfs that a good rpg isnt just preety new graphics but a kewl story as well

[Renmiri]

You lot need to learn to appreciate a challenge more often, there's always going to be a stronger monster in an area full of monsters. They won't always be low-level and be of the same kind, it varies. That's what makes the game so interesting and different from previous FF'S-the fact that the fiends in a certain area are not so predictable, but leave you wondering if your capable of taking them out. I find that realistic and a good factor to the game.
QFT

I disliked the pacing, the music, the theme and the way the story is told (no romance! :rolleyes2 ) but the battle system is awesome fun!!! Leveling up doesn't even need button smashing anymore, gambits do it for you :love: :love: :love:

Yeah there are some insanely hard monsters but not one of the "hards" is mandatory to complete the game. The mandatory bosses are pushovers! I compare Yiazmat and the like to getting the Sun Sigil in FFX. Impossibly hard but not mandatory, only done by the masochist fanatics that enjoy this sort of stuff :p

As for random battles, just turn target lines off and you will get pretty surprised by some attacks, I guarantee you. I was, all the time :eek:

PS: Paul, putting down another game won't improve XII's pacing, lack of story and cheesy dialog :eep:

[Garnie]

yeah the combat system is good but i miss random battles* garnie starts bring back the random battles group with t- shirts and things*
also the romance in a ff game is soarly missed by my opinion

[Neo-Omega Mk XXV]

I thought Larsa and Penelo were more of an item than Vaan ad Penelo.

Meh... After Wolf Kano and others with similar arguments spent 4 months explaining the story for me, I realized that FFXII story arch is OK but pretty beatean up already by George Lucas, Leonardo de Caprio (playing what Alexandre Dumas wrote), and many other authors... including Shakespeare, who not surprisingly did a much better job of telling it. ;)

Which doesn't change the fact that the story teling, i.e. dialogues and pacing, is dismal. This has been debated to death, I don't want to repeat it but I think that after 3 continents played the game and gamers in all 3 continents noticed the same thing it is pretty undeniable that something is off with the story telling.

Who cares ? FFXII is a good game in spite of it, at least to me. I'm just relieved it wasn't just me being picky, immature, or missing animated Cinderela 99! ;)

The story arguably "borrows" from Star Wars and the history of the Roman empire etc., but it's unfair to compare it to Shakespeare, Lucas, etc. on the grounds that it does an "evil empire with political intrigue" story, while exempting the other FF storylines from similar comparisons on the grounds that they're marginally more original. Every one of them fails miserably when compared to literary classics. I've found that so far (I'm up to Giruvegan) FF12's plot is easily superior to the plot of every other FF in the main series with the exception of FF7 and FF10. The pacing is not uniformly bad IMO, just uneven. I agree that the trip to Archades drags, but I haven't had major problems other than that. I don't think the dialog sucks, though I agree that there's not enough of it. So let's not try to pass off opinions as "facts".

[Renmiri]

The story arguably "borrows" from Star Wars and the history of the Roman empire etc., but it's unfair to compare it to Shakespeare, Lucas, etc. on the grounds that it does an "evil empire with political intrigue" story, while exempting the other FF storylines from similar comparisons on the grounds that they're marginally more original. Every one of them fails miserably when compared to literary classics. I've found that so far (I'm up to Giruvegan) FF12's plot is easily superior to the plot of every other FF in the main series with the exception of FF7 and FF10. The pacing is not uniformly bad IMO, just uneven. I agree that the trip to Archades drags, but I haven't had major problems other than that. I don't think the dialog sucks, though I agree that there's not enough of it. So let's not try to pass off opinions as "facts".

My point is that a sizable portion of FF fans in Japan, US and Europe have noticed problems with the story. That is a fact.

When people in 3 continents, all with different backgrounds, different expectations, different levels of FF knowledge and different tastes all find a thing in common to say about a game, I listen. Even if I didn't agree, I'd listen ;)

PS: The pacing is not uniformly bad IMO, just uneven I'd say the same about the entire FFXII game. Which makes me mad at it because parts of it are the greatest ever so the lame parts make XII loose it's spot on the "greatest games of all time" list :(

[Neo-Omega Mk XXV]

Not when they all skyrocket and you have to spend a entire day monotomusly leveling up for a boss every single area every single boss, Thats not a challange, thats boring, badly planned, and not even made for the average gamer.

Then don't level up all day. Plan your purchases carefully, do a few mark hunts for extra gil and equipment, manage your licenses with thought, and experiment with different strategies. I've done this for 55 hours without major problems except for a few exceptionally annoying fights. Even then I didn't level for hours.

The idea, common in most JRPGs, that any challenge should be surmountable by levelling and/or money hoarding for a little while, is just inane. It seems to me that many complaints about FF12 come from the fact that it's not possible to get through the game by buying all of the strongest equipment at generic towns + a small amount of levelling.

[Setzer Gabianni]

This is also a fact - many magazines have rated this one of the best FF's ever, hence it's 40/40 review from god knows where. Also many people thoroughly enjoy the story.

Garnie, do you seriously think that FF alone has survived on these little iddy love scenarios? Granted, some FF's have got that love feeling to it, but you act as if it's been so many years since an FF game has had a love theme to it - the last official one to come out a console, was X-2, and that had a love theme to it!

FF has more to it then love themes, and after a while, it gets quite tiresome. Same with random battles - why make a brand new FF game if it isn't going to offer anything battle/gameplay wise?

FFXII was successful in proving that eliminating random battles would prove popular amongst most people. Imagine if it had been the same old - I doubt it would get good ratings as the other games. Same as if the story had been a generic one.

Imagine if XII had no significant changes. For all those awaiting XIII, and the changes would happen then, what would the reception be like?

We can't just stick with same old stuff, all the time - IMO, random battles should have been eliminated when we got to X. However, I am happy XII did that.

=D
ALSO, other "true FF fans" have found this story exceptional.

like moi ere.

[Renmiri]

How could I forget you and WK, Setzer / Berganfan ?

Aye, FFXII pushed the envelop and did many changes to the preconceived notions we had of FF games. Some worked very well, some others will be debated for eons! ;)

Peace! It is a very fun game and has great stuff on it, just story, IMHO, isn't one of them. :)

[Paul]

i think maybe it's the kind of story that doesn't appeal to everyone, then. but i certainly prefer this kind than what we've had in 8, 9 (not so much) and 10.

[The Mog Ninja]

Well, in MY opinion, this is the worst FF ever for:

No random battles

Battle system SUCKS

Takes FOREVER to get someone in your party

When they ARE in your party it is tedious to control them

I hate the Gambits because I like to feel like I'm putting at least a small amount of effort in the game

I don't like Penelo or Vaan or any of the characters (excluding Montblanc <3)

Battle system is slow, taking much too long to kill an enemy

Magic is horrible

The Tutorial was the worst Tutorial I have ever played through in my life

License Grid is god-awful.

Inability to dual wield

Story moves far too slow, and is generic in the sense that the generic way a small town kid will tackle an empire and of course win.

And even with the ridiculous story, it moves far too slowly!

Vaan is UGLY!!

[Hazzard]

wow, you sure are negative about the game. The hatred you got towards it is so passionate-it scares me!:(

It isn't even as bad as your saying, i think most of the stuff in the game like the battle system-makes it great and that's why i love to play it. The characters could maybe have a bit more emotional in terms of interacting with each other more, than just fighting and going for a goal. That's what i loved about FFX.
It was like one huge family of guardians and a summoner, and they all respected their individuals talents and every single one of them expressed their personality and you knew their backgrounds. Even though Tidus can be annoying, he's a good kid!
So I can only agree with you on the fact that the characters could of liked each other more, and not that they sucked because they didn't. Especially not Basch cause he's like Auron. Everything else you said i utterly disagree with and is over-exaggerated about how bad it is...

[Renmiri]

I used to be like KHK right after I started playing XII. At least with me, it was part because of me expecting so much due to the hype, part me mad about "wasted potential" - the fact that great graphics are "wasted" on a "lame" story and part of me missing FFX.

Then FFXII grew on me, but only when I put away my unrealistic expectations, my love for other games and my demand for a game "perfect for Renmiri"...

Also, being called "immature", "not a serious gamer" and "lover of Cinderella fairy tales" doesn't help people like the game if they already have their own reservations about it ;)

[Formalhaut]

If your so negative about it, why post in the forum then? Jeez. :mad:

[Marshall Banana]

Takes FOREVER to get someone in your party


Battle system is slow, taking much too long to kill an enemy


Magic is horrible


The Tutorial was the worst Tutorial I have ever played through in my life


Story moves far too slow, and is generic in the sense that the generic way a small town kid will tackle an empire and of course win.
I have a feeling that you didn't even play the game, your highness!

(Tsk, kids are just too hard to please these days!)

[The Mog Ninja]

I have a feeling that you didn't even play the game, your highness.

(Tsk, kids are just too hard to please these days!)

Well your feelings are wrong. But you were correct with the "highness" bit.

[Namouri]

Final Fantasy XII is possibly the best to date
reasons:

awesome storyline...possibly the most original (i'm going to save the world! oh look - crystals!...yeah gets a little dull.)

great characters

new original music

awesome new summons, and great battle system


and for you who think that the characters had no significant change heres to you



say you were vaan. your parents and your brother were killed by the empire. and your ulitmate dream was to become a sky pirate.

i highly doubt you would ever change your ultimate dream, or if your family was killed, just to forgive and forget. vaan ultimate driving motive - revenge. and thats it. not every single person in the world has to have some revalation, and most people don't. if your already happy with yourself, whats the point of change. also - if you are starting your adventure wanting to be a pirate, or you wnat to destroy the empire...and it changed by the end of the game, the original passions of vaan would seem pointless, and ruinthe story. also, vaan's passion for destroying the empire, fuels ashe's rage to do the same


and penelo is there because she likes vaan...no duh bitches...lol


ffxii is an awesome game


if you don't like change


shove it

[Nominus Experse]

No random battles
I never realized people enjoyed walking about and suddenly being attacked by a number of enemies. Not only that, but the great repetitive nature of seeing the same pan and fade effect give way to the same group(s) of enemies to fight again and again. And they just come out of no where - it's truly a wondrous thing.

Does FFXII eliminate the redundant, monotanous nature of a constant stream of enemies attacking you for no other reason than because you are there? No, but I do think it's a lovely break from the usual.


Battle system SUCKS
A matter of perspective of opinion, but your's doesn't truly hold any value if you do not go further than simply stating that "it SUCKS".


Takes FOREVER to get someone in your party
Umm... An hour or so? If you haven't the patience of an hour, than why are you playing an RPG?


When they ARE in your party it is tedious to control them
Hence gambits


I hate the Gambits because I like to feel like I'm putting at least a small amount of effort in the game
Than turn them off; however, if you do, do not then complain about how it is tedious to control your characters - that's what gambits are for.


I don't like Penelo or Vaan or any of the characters (excluding Montblanc <3)
Why? Opinion means little without reasons.


Battle system is slow, taking much too long to kill an enemy
Then smurfing level up, jack the speed up in the configuration menu, or get better.


Magic is horrible
You are obviously using it wrong then.


The Tutorial was the worst Tutorial I have ever played through in my life
Who needs a tutorial for a FF game?


License Grid is god-awful.
Why?


Inability to dual wield
List how many RPGs, that have been successful, that allow you to duel wield, and why it was included


Story moves far too slow, and is generic in the sense that the generic way a small town kid will tackle an empire and of course win.

And even with the ridiculous story, it moves far too slowly!
Repetition does not make a point.


Vaan is UGLY!!
Subjective

[Hazzard]

wow KHK-You really need to get some facts before you start slagging off a good game!

[Setzer Gabianni]

Well, in MY opinion, this is the worst FF ever for:

No random battles


Battle system SUCKS

Takes FOREVER to get someone in your party

When they ARE in your party it is tedious to control them

I hate the Gambits because I like to feel like I'm putting at least a small amount of effort in the game

I don't like Penelo or Vaan or any of the characters (excluding Montblanc <3)

Battle system is slow, taking much too long to kill an enemy

Magic is horrible

The Tutorial was the worst Tutorial I have ever played through in my life

License Grid is god-awful.

Inability to dual wield

Story moves far too slow, and is generic in the sense that the generic way a small town kid will tackle an empire and of course win.

And even with the ridiculous story, it moves far too slowly!

Vaan is UGLY!!

1. omfg, lets be retarded SE, and stick with the same old battle system because we don't want anything new, we want to be the same old boring fans.

2. Battle system doesn't suck. There's so many new things you can do with this Battle System, it kicks arse! Quickenings, Gambits - Pretty much every other FF has not given you so much freedom to able to give your characters certain commands to do at certain times. Also, if you turn your gambits off, everything is still turn based - you can still chose attacks manually, and I have even discovered this during Gambits as well if you want to change from attacking target to another!

3. No it doesn't. You get Ashe for good, the last main character, on the leviathan - that isn't long into the game. sheesh.

4. No it isn't. It's quite easy to do so.

5. Turn your Gambits off then!

6. Please explain why you hate the characters. Don't just say blah blah blah and then not give any reasons. Granted, we can expect everyone to love them all, and even I don't think everyone is perfect, but with little reasons..

7. It isn't slow. You can kill your monsters pretty quickly. It's like X-2, in the way everyone can attack almost together at once. But at least characters move around to get attacking positions etc.

8. Magic is horrible? Why? It's the same as previous FF's. Deary me.

9. Yeah yeah. Reasons?

10. Well? Are you going to actually explain why anywhere? The License Board was good in the way you would actually surprise yourself, finding out new abilities whichever direction you went. Sometimes, you may end up learning abilities you don't want to learn when searching for a quickening, but it wasn't all bad.

11. Inability to dual wield? Tell me dear, how many FF's have incorporated the dual wield ability? How many FF characters in the past could dual wield? So if FFXII sucks in this area, it does so for other FF's.

12. Then every other storyline is generic. zomg, we save the world, good peoplez win lolz. yey! Every storyline has a generic ending, and with XII It isn't just one kid taking on a whole Empire. Sheesh. Do you seriously expect the main heroes to not win?

13. No it doesn't. What about the games that came on 4 discs? Their stories took ages to get through. XII's was a perfect length.

14. ZOMG, perfect reason to hate a game, cus Vaan is ugly.

I'm not trying to glorify XII, but when you don't even bother to explain yourself, and keep making little nit picking comments.

I'm pretty much giving the same sort of comments other people have been giving you. No flaming or anything, but people get a bit miffed when you dont explain yourself. :tongue:

Namouri: Thanks dear ;) Awesome post!

[Wolf Kanno]

Well I was going to post but god be damned I was beaten to it again by Nominus and Setzer. My hat off to you two.

[The Mog Ninja]

Yes, the reason I put "Well, in MY opinion" before it was because that is my opinion.

[Setzer Gabianni]

Yes, the reason I put "Well, in MY opinion" before it was because that is my opinion.

Yes but you never explained yourself did you, explained why you hated these things? To just use the My Opinion thing isn't always good enough. To get a better picture of why you hate such things, you need to explain yourself. That's why people reacted like that. If you explained yourself beforehand, people would not have given such responses.

[Wolf Kanno]

But we need to know what you were looking for and what the game apparently lacked for you.

It's easy to spout off your opinion (just look at my FFXIII thread:rolleyes2 ) but it's more difficult to back that opinion (once again look at my pathetic FFXIII thread...:cry:)

Basically, by coming in here and shouting out what you dislike without giving off anymore reason than "IMHO" means you are wasting our time by not adding to the conversation. I'm not trying to be mean and I really don't mean to insult you. This is just a forum pet peeve of mine.

Basically explain yourself so the FFXII fans don't demote you to the wild ramblings of a mad man and just ignore you. We like good debates. Just check out the forum history for that.

[Markus. D]

I have a feeling that you didn't even play the game, your highness.

(Tsk, kids are just too hard to please these days!)

Well your feelings are wrong. But you were correct with the "highness" bit.

o_o Its bassically FFXI with added ATB bar o_o;

I thought you play it :{?

[Neo-Omega Mk XXV]

Yes, the reason I put "Well, in MY opinion" before it was because that is my opinion.

If you come onto a game's forum and trash virtually everything about that game without substantiating your positions in the slightest, you become a troll.

[Garnie]

it dont suck, suck the story just sucks!!

[Old Manus]

This thread is the equivalent of bashing your head against a brick wall.

[Setzer Gabianni]

it dont suck, suck the story just sucks!!

suck the story..just sucks?

[No.78]

Well, in MY opinion, this is the worst FF ever for:

No random battles

You're joking right?


battle system SUCKS
In what way?


Takes FOREVER to get someone in your party

Yeah, sitting around with your flag up can get boring... Oh wait, no thats FFXI. What on earth are you talking about?


When they ARE in your party it is tedious to control them

What are you talking about?!



I hate the Gambits because I like to feel like I'm putting at least a small amount of effort in the game
How much did you play exactly?


I don't like Penelo or Vaan or any of the characters (excluding Montblanc <3)

Whyy?


Battle system is slow, taking much too long to kill an enemy
That all depends on how much you suck and how strong the enemy is. Surely, the longer the fight, the better? More challenging? No?


Magic is horrible

Like I said, how far have you played?!


The Tutorial was the worst Tutorial I have ever played through in my life

There was a tutorial?


License Grid is god-awful.

What makes it awful?


Inability to dual wield
lol, aww baby


Story moves far too slow, and is generic in the sense that the generic way a small town kid will tackle an empire and of course win.

I didn't get that drift at all.


And even with the ridiculous story, it moves far too slowly!

First people complained FFs were getting shorter, now this? Honestly...



Vaan is UGLY!!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... Actually, I could say that to everything you just said

[arcanedude34]

This game is about average for the Final Fantasy series- sucks in some fields, rocks in others.

The graphics and game play are obviously the best features about this game. Um, the license system COULD have been left out, but its just a version of the sphere grid that didn't work out as well as the sphere grid.

The plot and music are the game's major weak points. You can tell that they overdid it with the plot. I mean I have absolutely no idea what is going on half the time, and they terrible music only makes it worse.

With the amount of detail crammed into this game, can you blame them for having underdeveloped characters?

Overall, this game scores a fairly average on the FF radar.

Vaan should get a shirt though.

[Setzer Gabianni]

Funnily enough, I knew what was going on. The music isn't terrible, people just have different tastes. Please explain why the characters were under developed.

The License Board was easier to use then the Sphere Grid, and proved to be more exciting, but each to their own :)

[No.78]

Yeah I think the license board was cool, allowed much more freedom than the sphere grid.

[arcanedude34]

I personally prefer the Sphere Grid, but that's just my opinion. The characters aren't underdeveloped I guess, but a few things (like motives, etc.) are less-than detailed.

I still think this game is great and worth playing.

[Remon]

I don't get it why people complain about the battle system!
It's one of the best since you can actually choose which enemy to attack.You can run around in the middle of the battle etc etc.The random battles were getting old and repetitive.I'm glad that Square went for a change :thumb:

But i sure do miss the victory dances :love:
Though in FF12 they do victory dances after boss fights :love:

[Renmiri]

Aye, I equip Vaan with 2 handed swords just to see him climb on them like a monkey :D

[Setzer Gabianni]

I personally prefer the Sphere Grid, but that's just my opinion. The characters aren't underdeveloped I guess, but a few things (like motives, etc.) are less-than detailed.

I still think this game is great and worth playing.

:) Hey that's ok, I can see where you are coming from.

PP, can you imagine them doing a victory dance and then a random Wild Saurian comes and kills you? :love:

[Remon]

The sphere grid was too long for me.I still haven't completed the sphere grid of any character.It's been 2 years now....:(
But the license grid was cool/ not too short and not too long either.I completed it near the very end of the game :cool:


I personally prefer the Sphere Grid, but that's just my opinion. The characters aren't underdeveloped I guess, but a few things (like motives, etc.) are less-than detailed.

I still think this game is great and worth playing.

:) Hey that's ok, I can see where you are coming from.

PP, can you imagine them doing a victory dance and then a random Wild Saurian comes and kills you? :love:

Lol now that could be cool

[Yukki-Chan]

Alright first of all I have a love hate relationship with this game but its steadily growing on me and I'm learning to love it more.
-Graphics in terms of square enix are going to improve each time we play, graphics are easy to build on (I'm going to get shot for saying that I mean it's easy by comparison to writing a good story) you just have to make things look realistic right? The FF series isn't suddenly going to revert back to pixels (the good old days) Normally I try and save judgement on a game via its graphics for last, hence a scene in GAME

Friend; Wow look at the graphics on that game the characters look realistic and so does everything around them, wow you can even see the expression change and theres sweat dripping off their heads.
Me; Yes but its ping pong

For me graphics is the icing on the cake, the thing that finishes off a good game but doesn't nessesarily make one in the first place.

At first I really disliked the new battle system but now I've played with it more I'm getting used to it and I love it, I find it much more bearable than a random battle every 3 steps that makes me throw down my controller and go ARGH when I'm trying to cross a very large field. Here you can easily run and avoid enemies quite happily. (even if the slower runners get killed you can revive them when the big t rex gets tired of running after you.

Leveling up was neither tedious nor annoying to me and I've only died twice (once when Vaan was by himself and the second for stupidly not pressing the pause button when I had to answer the door), not out of low level but out of my own carelessness. I just take ten extra minutes before going into a new area with a rule that if I can defeat a reasonable enemy with 2-3 hits then I'm ready for the next area. Boss fights made a nice challenge and the fact that I can run around freely in Battle instead of simply bouncing up and down proportionatly to how badass (do I need skulls for that?) my character is, is a fresh and welcome change, battles are NEVER simply run, attack, run back. I did find it annoying that I have to wait for a physical attack to power up before it happens but ah well at least its the same for the enemy.
Quickenings were at first a royal pain, mashing the R2 button while hammering on triangle confused me no end but I've gotten the hang of it now and just managed a 10 hit combo so I'm a happy Gaia plains bunny. Summons also were a bit annoying as Belias kept dieing on me and it still does tick me off slightly, but the high level of damage (unless I'm against a mark or another boss) they inflict makes me keep on summoning them I just wish they went back to the format of one, huge apocalyptic assult that cut 1/3 of the hp off your enemies.

Finally on the story, I have just left the mout Bur o'msomething and so far I find the storyline is okay, I like the judges, characters and especially the cameos in the moogle characters that have been popping up making me gush at the cuteness. I have been hearing the fact that there is no canon romantic story involving any characters (unless you count Ashe being married but thats besides the point) whatsoever, I for one lept for joy at this because I'm sick of romantic storylines and how unrealistic they make characters if not written properly. I for one can never see anyone switch from a full length skirt and boots to hot pants with half a skirt just because her love interest has popped out of existance (Rikku was fine she always dressed like that) That and I couldn't bear the thought of another underwater kiss scene where the main character looks stoned out of his bleach blonde, tanned, ever complaining and moaning head.

I'll end the rant for now but I shall return (Maybe)

[Renmiri]

Hey Setzer ?

How is teh real game holding up in regards to your expectations ? You were so excited about it before you actually played! Was it everything you hoped for ?

Be honest now ;)

[Setzer Gabianni]

I get spasms whenever I go into a new area. Being chased by gangs monsters, summoning Espers even. Having the Undead pop out of the ground, going into the stupidly hard Zertinan Caverns, fighting rolling chickens, trying to take on neutral monsters which are like 20 levels higher then you - god woman, this, is what I have been waiting for. No more :skull::skull::skull::skull:ty random battles. Yes, I get angry sometimes, but thats a good sign - challenges make me angry, and I love getting angry 8D

Good lord the scenery, the music! The Bestiary! The story! The characters! *O* The story isn't too long winded and complicated, like previous titles, such as X, VIII, and IX - not saying they were :skull::skull::skull::skull:, but they were very long. XII's story was of a great length.

Judges. omg. If only there were more footage of them. Probably my main gripe with the game. Also, just gimme gimme more FMV's at more sensational points. No biggie though, cutscenes were good enough.

I could secks the judges. dihsdfs

VOICES! zomg. I fell in love with everybody. ♥

I fucking love it Renmiri. difhds

ds
fd
ds

[Renmiri]

:love: I'm happy for ya :love:

[TheBanzaiKitten]

Not the best game I ever played, but one of my favorites.

The storyline isn't that great. I haven't beaten it yet but I see hardly any character development at all (Ones I have seen are Vaan becoming more mature and everyone tolerates each other more). It's very confusing and the dialect doesn't help (They talk like Yoda!).

The gameplay is one of the best ever from what I've played. The battle system is fun and makes dungeon crawling tolerable. The only problem I see is how tedious it is to get weapons and magic (You have to get a license AND buy it). This is the only game where I actually level up for hours at a time.

The graphics are great but even some of the cutscenes bug me sometimes.

The music is okay and tolerable. It's not the best FF music I've heard. When it comes to sound, the voice acting is one of the worst parts. The only voices I can stand to hear are Fran, Balthier, and Basch.

[Setzer Gabianni]

VA bad? Surely you are only referring to the main party ;_; ♥

[Hazzard]

The storyline is good, but too jumbled. The amount of time it takes to get to the next point in the game is long and you have to do training, side quests and hunts as well. So you usually end up forgetting about the basic story plot which is going on at that point. I'm at the part after the dreamer guy called kilitias has just well...Y'know!

[No.78]

The storyline is good, but too jumbled. The amount of time it takes to get to the next point in the game is long and you have to do training, side quests and hunts as well. So you usually end up forgetting about the basic story plot which is going on at that point. I'm at the part after the dreamer guy called kilitias has just well...Y'know!

Thats the same with all FF first play throughs. Especially the older ones, in FF1 I'm stuck cos I forgot what I was doing =/

[Wolf Kanno]

I personally prefer the Sphere Grid, but that's just my opinion. The characters aren't underdeveloped I guess, but a few things (like motives, etc.) are less-than detailed.

I still think this game is great and worth playing.

To be honest, if I was to compare FFXII's liscence grid with my favorite FFbattle system (Job Class system from FFVand FFT respectavely) I would agree that the Liscenece board is a poor substitute. Cause to me, the job system is the best system in the series and makes every new system in the series look laughable. In fact I find that most systems from FFVI to FFXII (excluding FFXI) is just trying to emulate the Job system.

On it's own merits. It's a really wonderful system that allows a greater level of freedom than both the Job class and sphere grid systems cause you don't really have to spend time leveling certain jobs or traversing through different paths to get the results you want. It's streamlined for new players but complex enough (when you combine it with the Gambits) to make it appealing to older fans. I genuinely found it to be very fun. Hell I'm still working out the logistics of building workable strict job classes from the system. Something I think is a testament to the freedom the system allows.


Alright first of all I have a love hate relationship with this game but its steadily growing on me and I'm learning to love it more.

Glad to hear you're starting to enjoy it.



-Graphics in terms of square enix are going to improve each time we play, graphics are easy to build on (I'm going to get shot for saying that I mean it's easy by comparison to writing a good story) you just have to make things look realistic right? The FF series isn't suddenly going to revert back to pixels (the good old days) Normally I try and save judgement on a game via its graphics for last, hence a scene in GAME

Friend; Wow look at the graphics on that game the characters look realistic and so does everything around them, wow you can even see the expression change and theres sweat dripping off their heads.
Me; Yes but its ping pong

For me graphics is the icing on the cake, the thing that finishes off a good game but doesn't nessesarily make one in the first place.


This is my exact feeling about graphics in the gaming community as a whole.


At first I really disliked the new battle system but now I've played with it more I'm getting used to it and I love it, I find it much more bearable than a random battle every 3 steps that makes me throw down my controller and go ARGH when I'm trying to cross a very large field. Here you can easily run and avoid enemies quite happily. (even if the slower runners get killed you can revive them when the big t rex gets tired of running after you.

I wasn't really impressed with the battle system during the Reks tutorial . I only began to really like it once I gained access to the Gambits and multiple characters play around with.



Leveling up was neither tedious nor annoying to me and I've only died twice (once when Vaan was by himself and the second for stupidly not pressing the pause button when I had to answer the door), not out of low level but out of my own carelessness. I just take ten extra minutes before going into a new area with a rule that if I can defeat a reasonable enemy with 2-3 hits then I'm ready for the next area. Boss fights made a nice challenge and the fact that I can run around freely in Battle instead of simply bouncing up and down proportionatly to how badass (do I need skulls for that?) my character is, is a fresh and welcome change, battles are NEVER simply run, attack, run back. I did find it annoying that I have to wait for a physical attack to power up before it happens but ah well at least its the same for the enemy.
Quickenings were at first a royal pain, mashing the R2 button while hammering on triangle confused me no end but I've gotten the hang of it now and just managed a 10 hit combo so I'm a happy Gaia plains bunny. Summons also were a bit annoying as Belias kept dieing on me and it still does tick me off slightly, but the high level of damage (unless I'm against a mark or another boss) they inflict makes me keep on summoning them I just wish they went back to the format of one, huge apocalyptic assult that cut 1/3 of the hp off your enemies.


I never had to level up until recently and I'm only doing it so I can complete optional challenges. This may be due to the fact I never skipped the Mark hunts and did them religiously throughout the game. I also never used a guide so I only had a vague idea where they were and spent a good time wondering the area map looking for them instead of making a bee line straight to them. Cause I did this, and kept avoinding combat to a minimum... I never had to level up, and I never had to worry about money. This is why I have problems addressing people who have these issues cause my only response would be simply "You must be playing the game wrong";)

You seemed to have worked out a good system and I'm happy to hear it alleviates you from the normal "it's too hard and tedious" whining of the other players.



Finally on the story, I have just left the mout Bur o'msomething and so far I find the storyline is okay, I like the judges, characters and especially the cameos in the moogle characters that have been popping up making me gush at the cuteness. I have been hearing the fact that there is no canon romantic story involving any characters (unless you count Ashe being married but thats besides the point) whatsoever, I for one lept for joy at this because I'm sick of romantic storylines and how unrealistic they make characters if not written properly. I for one can never see anyone switch from a full length skirt and boots to hot pants with half a skirt just because her love interest has popped out of existance (Rikku was fine she always dressed like that) That and I couldn't bear the thought of another underwater kiss scene where the main character looks stoned out of his bleach blonde, tanned, ever complaining and moaning head.

I'll end the rant for now but I shall return (Maybe)


Took the words right out of my mouth. I do hope you enjoy FFXII's amazing story though.


Not the best game I ever played, but one of my favorites.

The storyline isn't that great. I haven't beaten it yet but I see hardly any character development at all (Ones I have seen are Vaan becoming more mature and everyone tolerates each other more). It's very confusing and the dialect doesn't help (They talk like Yoda!

What kind of character development were you looking for with the characters. I'm curious.



My point is that a sizable portion of FF fans in Japan, US and Europe have noticed problems with the story. That is a fact.

When people in 3 continents, all with different backgrounds, different expectations, different levels of FF knowledge and different tastes all find a thing in common to say about a game, I listen. Even if I didn't agree, I'd listen ;)

PS: The pacing is not uniformly bad IMO, just uneven I'd say the same about the entire FFXII game. Which makes me mad at it because parts of it are the greatest ever so the lame parts make XII loose it's spot on the "greatest games of all time" list :(

Thought I "overlooked" this statement did you;)

The problem with this argument is that it can be said about any of the FF's so it's not unique to FFXII alone. Just wonder into any of the myriad of "Your Favorite..." or "Which is the best..." threads in General FF or even General Gaming forums and you will find that no FF has some unanimous opinion of good or bad on a game in the series. And most of the time it stems from story (or lack thereof) of their respective games. Thus fact quickly turns into opinion once again.

We just all have different taste, hell the only thing most of us can agree on is that we love FF. Even if it's not the exact same one.;)

[Renmiri]

Rats, pwned again by WK ;)

[Hazzard]

wow, another factual description of summin from the great 'Wolf Kanno'.
Hail down people!

[DLPB]

I have been searching bad reviews on this game after i finished it, because to be quite honest those reviews are the only true ones.

How this game got 40/40 and 10/10 in the high review magazines is a complete and utter mystery.

I have wrote a review oin this in another forum and shall also place it here. I completely agree with shadow...this game is crap.

-----------Rewiew: A bit of a mess and contains spoilers...if you can call them that!-----------

Well, Where to begin. I am going to try and remain level headed but believe me it is going to take it out of me.

I will be soring this game out of 10 for each aspect, then an average score will be decided which I don't even know myself yet (but you can bet your arse it isn't going to be over 7/10)

------------------------------------
Music:

Before I headr the music for this game I had serious reservations about what it would be like without Nobuo. Some of that initial worry was unfounded, some of it was spot on.

Firstly, the music usually fits this game. There are a few nice tunes like the main theme, rabanastre and even 1 of the boss battles. Overall hitoshi has doen a reasonable job.

No, it isn't on the level of Uemstsu. No way in hell and I never thought it would be. I can name 3 or 4 tunes that really stick in my mind from this OST, compared to almost all of the previous installments. Alot of the music in this game sounds too generic, that would be my main complaint.

less real melodies and alot of mainly generic sounds that flow from 1 place to the next.

I give 6.5/10 for music. It is a reasonable effort and on the whole it fits the game.

Story:

This, is undoutedly where this game utrerly breaks down. I have to base this review on its own merits but also, I must compare it to other RPG's and previous Final fantasy games.

To put it bluntly, the story is extremely thin. At times, it seems to be going somewhere but then you spend 5 hours fighting meaningles battles, to be presented with nothing but a vague direction to a new area. Nothing more.

The saddest part is this game is classed as being "50-100 hours long" when in reality, the story occupies around 2 hours. Much less than any other RPG I have played. The endless battles and ridiculous plotless bosses just keep coming and coming and unless you are braindead, you get bored very quickly. The sad excuses driving you forward just make you want to attack the TV. following on from this:

The character deveopment is none existant, and this is the biggest crime of all. The main charcters are basically, just there (including the elusive bad guy). No explanation of their motivations, because, apart from Ashe, they have none. It is laughable to expect that anyone of any real intelligence can believe these charcters would just stay together through it all for no reason.

You don't care 1 iota for any of your charcters, because, quite simply, you don't know them! What little dialogue there is, as mentioned, is simple an excuse to drive you to a new area of the game and progress. The lack of dialogue in this game is an absolute and utter pitiful disgrace. This is supposed to be an RPG and so I must come down hard on this game for its insulting plot. The only one who has any real depth is balthier and that isn't saying much at all.

I give the plot 3/10. The 3 points are there for the reasonable tying up job at the end, wheer baltheir gives back the ring and also the main NPC discussions around the towns. I also give 1 point for the main running storyline of the empire. For the record, FFX-2 scores 1/10 and FFVII 10/10

Voices:

Surprisingly this game has very good voice acting with the exception of Fran who is an annoying talentless noise. I believe she is played by a male to be quite honest.

Vayne solidor at the end is without doubt the coolest, though we must be very respectful to the performance of ashe and bathier's actors. Compared to othe voice acting this is about as good as I have heard along with X and metal Gear Solid.

The voice acting, little of it though there is compared to X, is solid throughout from all but 1 character.

I therefore give voice acting for this game 8/10

Sound

The engineering of the voices is absolutely disgraceful. I could and have done better with a regular mic attacjed to adobe audition. The quality is reminisent tof a 32 kbit/s MP3 in mono. It is nothing as clear or natural sounding as X for sure.

That isn't the only downfall. It seems for the english release somebody got very very lazy. hardly any of the NPC say anything, instead we are back to subtitles and worse, periodically your main charcters don't have voices either! At the end of the game, vayne is talking but his crew isn't when replying. FARCICAL.

The main sound effects are as you would expect, apart from the ridiculous volumes and over-the-top effects, especially during the special moves

The sound engineering therefore must recieve 4/10 because it is awful and downright LAZY

Gameplay:

Now, this started off very good. You had all these cool new things to check out. gambits, mist attacks, espers, license Grid and clan battles. Let us not forget the miles of areas there is to explore. This game is huge on that front. So, for somebody who doesn't care about plot, the gameplay is a plus.

Well, it would be a big plus, except the gambit system ruins the main battle and the new battle system completely. Throughout this game I survivied by 2 gambits: attack:foe and cure: ally. Worse still, the develppers deliberately left in an exploit to get your party up to level 99 without touchinga button.

Pathetic. you can watch your party destroy the foes without any interaction or brain power throughout the entire game. It truly is disgusting. Ater a few hours this gets samey and you realise that there is hardly anything to really acre about tactically. bad bad move by enix.
This gambit system is the single biggest disaster in Final fantasy history. You don't need a brain, it limits creativity, it makes every battle attack attack attack and it gets you to level 99 without touching a button. IT IS A DISASTER.

Then there is the second problem, you gain around 2 or 3 espers from the main storyline. The last few come right at the end of the game and are worthless to you in battle. The others are all side quests which again, is disgraceful (since you won't be using them at all anyway). Mist attacks also become as useless and so, youe nd up back wheer i said--- foe: attack. NO GOOD.

The mist attacks become useless but at the start of the game I suppose they help. Unfortunately, here is another problem. Your MP is taken to 0, the same as when using an Esper. So tactically this makes it a last ditch attempt at killing a boss for example. The 2 worst things about the mist attacks however, are i) The damage is mostly down to luck as your shuffle the attacks and ii) you aer sat there waiting hours for these silly moves to finish.

The license grid is yet another huge let down. It starts off promising, but then you realise at 30 hours into the game (29 are battles), that this will be finished in no time and that you won't even be using the magics much.

By far the worst thing gameplay wise is the repeative battles and ridiculous amount of bosses. When you get to the final area before bahumut you will absolutely know what I mean.

I also hear (since I could stomach no more) that there is an enemy on this game devoted to the writer which has 50,000,000 HP. YES 50 million! With your main attacks capped at 9999 it is known to take 8-9 hours to beat this thing, leaving your characters to mindlessly fight it with the gambits. ARE ENIX SERIOUS! WHAT THE HELL IS THIS?

It just sums this game up: an endless boring battle with no brains. An excuse to add time to your game timer and make the game look good.

It fails. IT FAILS

Has anyone noticed the loading times are much worse for this game too? it is a joke. On a few screens, consistently, 16 seconds to load the next area (i tested this properly). And after the Esper's are dismissed....Is there anything in this crap game that isn't poor?

Then we have the sidequest hunts for weapons/armours which is a mess. A total mess. You have random chests with ridiculous drop rates. You have enemies with ridiclous drop rates. You need a guide to get the stuff, and even with it there is a huge amount down to luck. You may not open certain chests or you cannot get the hardest weapons and even more laughably, every chest in this game contains worthless items 99.9% of the time. Unless you are daft or just plain stupid, you will not be loading your game up time and time again to get the "correct item". No this system is the Second biggest disaster in final fantasy history

If not for the clan battles and the extra side quests, the gameplay would be right where it should be, a 1 in 10. However, I have decided a fair score will be 5/10 when taking everything into consideration.

Graphics:

final fantasy has always been strong in this area, pushing every system to the limit. This is certainly no different. The areas are detailed, the charcter sprites good, the FMV's wonderful as usual. The Areas are as vast and beautifu as ever before. I cannot give this anything other than 10/10

{FF7 Music: 10/10, Story: 10/10, Gameplay: 10/10, Sound: 10/10, Graphics 9/10}

FFXII:
Music: 6.5/10
Story: 3/10
Gameplay: 5/10
Voice: 8/10
Sound: 4/10
Graphics: 10/10

The final average score for this travesty of a game is 6/10

Firmly placing it as the second worst Final Fantasy game of the modern era. This game will never be played by me again. I belieev it has 0 replay value whatsoever and the biggest mystery is wheer people see the story and also, how they get to 8-10/10 reviews. I will never trust famitsu with the scores. They talk garbage, which is apt really, because on the whole that is exactly what this game is.

I know why this game sucks so much though. Here is why:

Yasumi Matsuno (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasumi_Matsuno) as the writer and the other has-been's. No, you are not Yoshinori Kitase (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshinori_Kitase) or hironobu sakaguchi or Kazushige Nojima (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazushige_Nojima) my friend. You are a talentless fool. Don't come back.

No nobuo, yes he is missed.


DISASTER.

------
Luckily my friends the above genius' will be back (with the exception of hironobu) along with the very talented Masashi Hamauzu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masashi_Hamauzu) who did a great job in X.

So, there is hope for XIII but XII is not a final fantasy game. Don't kid yourselves that it is. it never will be, those tactics amateur bunch are not what made this series great and thank god they have pissed off for XIII.

XIII will be a good game with the main dudes back, I will never trust the lot that brought us this yarn ever again. That is what happens when you take away the main forumla. 0+0 does not equal 2. It never will do, so stop looking for anything in this game. It is not there!

Now I am sick of moaning. So I will just let it be. Enjoy the game if you can.

DLPB

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/review/R109645.html <<<<so damn true!

[Setzer Gabianni]

Hah. If we want to think it is a Final Fantasy, we will, and won't be swayed otherwise. People have good reasons for saying it is a Final Fantasy, and it does indeed have that feel to it. Didn't see much of a "fantasy" feel with VII or..VIII to an extent. But's that me and maybe some others at the end of the day. I already enjoy the game, as do others. No - "if I can enjoy it's".

Your opinion is welcomed, but at the end of the day, it's not a fact, although a lot of your stuff claims to be facts. I may disagree with various people at the end of the day and relentlessley argue stuff, but that is only because not everyone can be arsed to give an indepth review/decent comments. Heck, I don't try to make myself look all facty, I do my best to..urg, fdsfd - to explain myself and opinions? D=

You sir, while that being an indepth review, 8D, doesn't go down well with me. But you do win a :skull::skull::skull::skull:load of respect points for being thorough. ._. Please don't type as long next time.

:bigsmile:

P.S WOLF KANNO, WE NEED BACKUP

[DLPB]

I will be gone, so you may argue amongst yourselves. I will not indulge debate in this area. The game sucks and that is a fact. My review is true and anyone who thinks this game was good plot wise especially also probably believes that X-2 was a good game.

I have said my piece, agree or not. I am right.

If any of you here enjoyed that final dungeon before bahumut you must have brains like puddings! lol

[Setzer Gabianni]

You know what I take that back what I said about you. It isn't a fact dear, it's like with VII supposedly being the best FF ever. WRONG. Many people hate that game, and it's all down to opinion. Your opinion was welcomed, but with the arrogance coming out of you now, I'm just going to fling it out the window.

You aren't right. People find things wrong with every game. Heck, I think this story has a good plotline, and yes I also think that X-2 was a good game to a certain extent, but I'm allowed to think that.

Goodbye to you.

[DLPB]

yeah, as i thought. brain like puddin! For the record, VI has basically no plot either. I can demonstrate with dialogue, complexity and a number of statistical facts why this game is....:skull::skull::skull::skull:. and why VII,VIII,IX and X are great but you aren't worth it, because you have a brain....like...a...PUDDIN!

Goodbye!

Oh, also for the record this wolf guy, talks POO POO!

[Setzer Gabianni]

I'm sorry, but how dare you insult me like that? Just who do you think you are? You know what, I'll stop right there, because I could say a whole lot more about people like you, who think they're opinions are obviously complete fact.

[Finnegan]

yeah, as i thought. brain like puddin! For the record, VI has basically no plot either. I can demonstrate with dialogue, complexity and a number of statistical facts why this game is....:skull::skull::skull::skull:. and why VII,VIII,IX and X are great but you aren't worth it, because you have a brain....like...a...PUDDIN!

Goodbye!

Oh, also for the record this wolf guy, talks POO POO!

Morons like you make me lol.

I mean really, you do, anyone who says otherwise to your opinion you just ignore, and then insult them really really badly.

If anyones opinion doesn't matter I'm afraid it's yours seeing as you won't listen to other peoples.


Your Post out of ten 3/10 I liked the use of poo poo but the rest failed, and X-2 did suck

Summary: PHAIL.


Have a nice day. :greenie:

[f f freak]

To DLPB: What you think isn't fact it's opinion. Obviously you are the one with a brain like PUDDING (Notice the g on th end?) and I don't agree with you, you are not right it is your opinion, I believe X-2 was a good game. This is my opinion and I don't give a damn what you say because you can't change my mind. I suggest you sit tight until Wolf Kanno turns up to disprove everything you say and then you may walk away with your tail between your legs. Good day, Good bye.

[DLPB]

just read the review again, let the words sink in into that silly puddin of yours. people like you made me buy this game. I will never trust another 10/10 review because of people like you.

The very idea that you can say this game is very good and that that is an opinion is baloney!

it aint no opinion. This game is worse than a monkey testicle and so are you and your supporters on here. Especially wolf.

Now I am off. I suggest in your next life you learn to appreciate a good story and get a better brain because quite honesyly, if you think this game can even be compared to X and below you are sorely sorely sorely mistaken.

I won't be here when wolf gets back, he talks utter poo. My review stands up against him and swats him like a little fly.

Byeeeeeeee!

[Finnegan]

just read the review again, let the words sink in into that silly puddin of yours. people like you made me buy this game. I will never trust another 10/10 review because of people like you.

The very idea that you can say this game is very good and that that is an opinion is baloney!

it aint no opinion. This game is worse than a monkey testicle and so are you and your supporters on here. Especially wolf.

Now I am off. I suggest in your next life you learn to appreciate a good story and get a better brain because quite honesyly, if you think this game can even be compared to X and below you are sorely sorely sorely mistaken.

Byeeeeeeee!

You've been leaving for a while now.

I appreciate many good stories, obviously you don't and want a reall dull story with some :skull::skull::skull::skull:ehawk romance in the middle for you to drool over and write fanon, AMIRITE?

Again: PHAIL

[f f freak]

Go on walk away. You obviously can't handle Wolf Kanno which is why you're running away now. Bye bye. Hope to never see you again in the FFXII forums.

[BlackWaltz]

lol my name is DLPB! FINAL FANTASY XII IS BAD! you will all agree with me or i will be mad!

1) Dont tell everyone you are right in what you think and everyone is wrong, it makes you sound 10 years old (apologies if you are)

2) How you can even say "this is not a final fantasy" is ridiculous. i mean what the hell is a final fantasy game? i bet if u started a thread u would get a million different answers. they are all different, and try new things with each game.

3) my guess is your a fan boy of X which is why you flame XII so much. and you know why people? because its not X-3 (poor DLPB)

The final fantasy series has the most divided fans in any series. Everyone has a fave and thats kool. My favourite is VII and always will be because it introduced me to the series. My second favourite is IX (very different to VII) and i have enjoyed all in the series, especially XII.

I love it that everyone has there favourite and exchanges views on why they are so good, thats what makes the series great. What i do hate however, are fan-boys. Fan boys just have an addiction of flaming final fantasys that are not their favourites.

IF YOU DONT LIKE THE GAME, F**K OFF INTO ANOTHER FORUM.
YOUR FREE TO YOUR OPINION BUT DONT TELL EVERYONE YOU ARE RIGHT AND THEY ARE WRONG.

Im done :D

[BlackWaltz]

LOLZ!!!!

This is an instant message i recieved like 1 min after my post
Me thinks the age of 10 years old may be right. What do ya think guys? shall i join him on msn and have a battle? i mean what we gonna do have freestyle rap contest? lol some people....


DLPB Join Date: Mar 2007

come on then...debate

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

lets be havin u on msn if you think you are so wellard. I wont be postin again the forums and i shall soon be off.

[Setzer Gabianni]

Just tried to add me on MSN as well, but the best thing to do guys if he is hassling you is to report him, like I have done.

I think we should start getting back on topic now and try to ignore him.

One little thing I got narked about XII..was the lack of judge material, excluding Ghis. WE NEEDED MORE JUDGES XD

[BlackWaltz]

ye i agree, back to the subject lets move this convo into a new thread 'This Game is amazing!'

[DLPB]

Well we have established that I win by default, i wanted to go and not post again but I just have to say, what a bunch of cowards. so big with your views and you cant come onto msn and support them.

Why? cause you can't beat me.

I win by default, good night, puddings! LOL

[Setzer Gabianni]

XD I already made a thread about that~

Anyway, anyone agree with me about the judges?

The reason we don't want to talk to you, is because you do not have respect for other people's opinions, so why should we waste our time with you. You've pissed me and other people off enough already.

[f f freak]

I totally agree with you Setzer. I haven't played the game much but I've only really seen Ghis and Gabranth.

[BlackWaltz]

ye lets move this convo over to the new forum tho coz discussing this in 'this game is awfull' dont seem right lol.

yeah ignore him, he must be younger than 10 so i feel bad for making fun of him. But uf he us older than 10 and he calls people puddings (i think he may be playing for the other team, if u know what i mean):eek:

[Levian]

Okay, everyone stop it. If you want to discuss whether or not you think this game sucks, then do so without bringing this to a personal level. I don't want to see any more posts of this sort.

DLPB: If you can't discuss this without insulting people then it's probably best for you to not post here at all. You need to learn to respect others opinions. It's allright that you don't like the game, but it's not allright to insult others.

Finnegan, BlackWaltz & fffreak: Use the warn button instead of insulting back. When someone is being a jackass, let us handle it. Insulting them back doesn't make you much better than them.

Now, let's get back to the topic. Don't reply to this post, thanks.

edit: Actually, I'll just close this thread. It's long and probably a bit cursed. Anyone feel free to start up a fresh new one, though.