So I just finished and I am a little confused... (WHOLE THREAD IS SPOILER)

[Desert Merchant]

Ok so I just finished the game and I have heard both complaints and good things about the game. A lot of what people are saying about how the story is negative is legit I mean when you only play the game 2or 3 days a week its very hard to follow the story when there is probably 2 minutes of cutscene for every 2 hours of dungeon exploring. Keep in mind I am not knocking the game I still enjoyed the story just hard to keep up with its complexity when it was so sparse.

(SPOILERS KEEP IN MIND DONT READ IF YOU DONT WANT SPOILERS)

Which brings me to the point of this thread. I am very confused as to the nature of the antognist characters are they good/evil? I know that you are going to say that its a war and both sides are neither good nor evil but here is my problem. Ok so Vayne seemed like a good guy at the beginning of the game. His speech in Rabanastre seemed convincing which leads me to believe that origanally he was a good character and also the fact that Larsa supported him through much of his BS also leads me to think that he is a good hearted individual. So I guess my question is... Was he a good character who was just corrupted by Venat? because thats what the story makes it seems like... same goes for Cid. I know he was controlled by Venat but was he origanally such an evil character?

Which brings me to my next point... (sorry people try and follow along) So if indeed they were just being controlled by Venat then why were their evil morals supported by the Archadian empire (such as the judges and their army) unless indeed they were evil too. I mean I know they have to follow their orders but they have to understand that Vayne was slowly losing it and reguardless of him being a leader why would they do the things they did, because as soon as you dispose of Vayne it seems like everyone is on the same side. So are all the antagonists in the game just blindly following orders or do you think that had the same beliefs as Vayne... I am so confused :confused:

[Roto13]

Nobody is being controlled by Venat. Venat wants to help humanity take control of it's own destiny. Dr. Cid and Vayne agree. There's not really anything wrong with that. Vayne isn't such a bad guy, and neither are Vaan and friends, who want to avoid a war. That's the awesome thing about the story in this game. It leaves a bad taste in your mouth after you accomplish your goal. :P

[Renmiri]

Vayne isn't such a bad guy ?!?!?
Killing two brothers and his father aren't bad enough for you ? How about killing people who have just surrendered ? How about driving the Bahamut to Rabanastre to obliterate the city ?

Face it, Vayne lost it. He might have started with good intentions but in the end he lost it.

Which brings me to the point that XII is badly written. Vayne is shown to us as a guy who wants to be fair and nice to Rabanastre and wants to free humanity of the Occuria then - all of a sudden - he turns into a cartoon villain madman bent on genocide. Like it was time to have a villain and he was handy. Not believable at all.

[Diango12]

I doubt Vayne was going to annihilate the entire population of Rabanstre, devastate it yes but not complete destruction. His goal was war, to burn out the flame lit candle of strife with a kindled fire of his own melting the wax foundation (I know I played FFXII to much -_-).

And I have to argue Rabanastre did not surrender while its true the city itself submitted to Archadia's rule the resistance movement based within its walls did not. Hence the need to go and bring it to its knees- Being an imperial empire and all.

I think in the end for someone with so much responsibility of having to bear the weight of challenging the Gods to there self appointed rule he kept himself stable enough. He killed his brothers and possibly murdered his father but you can't say he did it out of spite or that he didn’t feel remorse for his actions. He was a man with alot on his hands and the fate of mankind rested solely in his palm if only his ambition was successful.

[Sophie Peithos]

The motivations of the antagonists are pretty poorly explained. Specifically, the game never really delves into why Venat would betray the other Occurians or why there was any need to relinquish Occurian control to begin with. I mean, they where obviously pretty manipulative but we’re given no evidence within the game that their rule was particularly detrimental, nor that humes could do a better job. If we were given a genuine reason as to why it was necessary, I might have been able to consider the whole “Wrestling Ivalice back into the hands of man” jazz more than convenient idealistic nonsense.

[Neo-Omega Mk XXV]

Vayne isn't such a bad guy ?!?!?
Killing two brothers and his father aren't bad enough for you ? How about killing people who have just surrendered ? How about driving the Bahamut to Rabanastre to obliterate the city ?

Face it, Vayne lost it. He might have started with good intentions but in the end he lost it.

Which brings me to the point that XII is badly written. Vayne is shown to us as a guy who wants to be fair and nice to Rabanastre and wants to free humanity of the Occuria then - all of a sudden - he turns into a cartoon villain madman bent on genocide. Like it was time to have a villain and he was handy. Not believable at all.

Vayne's intentions are never made totally clear, so it didn't appear to me that he "suddenly becomes a cartoon bad guy". For all we know Vayne's speech in Rabanastre near the beginning was merely a ruse, and his vicious, scheming side is shown from early on anyway. Certainly I never get the impression that his plan was simply to free humanity from the Occuria for the sole benefit of humanity. He may have wanted that, while at the same time taking advantage of the situation to maximize his own power. Or perhaps was willing to go to great lengths to achieve this "liberation", believing that any ends justify the means. This is hardly rare in real human history - there was much talk during the cold war of "saving western christian civilization/democracy/freedom from communism", while the reality for many people on the recieving end of this "salvation" was death squads, torture, disappearance and carpet bombing (no, I'm not interested in discussing politics here). The whole plot is quite open ended and morally ambiguous, perhaps excessively so for a video game.

[Renmiri]

The motivations of the antagonists are pretty poorly explained. Specifically, the game never really delves into why Venat would betray the other Occurians or why there was any need to relinquish Occurian control to begin with. I mean, they where obviously pretty manipulative but we’re given no evidence within the game that their rule was particularly detrimental, nor that humes could do a better job. If we were given a genuine reason as to why it was necessary, I might have been able to consider the whole “Wrestling Ivalice back into the hands of man” jazz more than convenient idealistic nonsense.

Precisely!! All the game says is that they intervened - once - 1,400 years ago to give power to Raithwal, who - gasp - brought peace and prosperity to Ivalice.

We should have such meddling Gods here on Earth!!!


The whole plot is quite open ended and morally ambiguous, perhaps excessively so for a video game.
It seems we agree. Actually the main game writer said so in an interview: It was his aim that good guys had flaws and bad guys showed kindness and specifically that he did not take sides on the conflict, leaving it for the player.

An interesting idea that fell flat on it's face: In the end the game needed a villain and all the ambiguity and "kindness" evaporated from Vayne, making him mad and evil as any villain on a cheesy James Bond rerun. You find hard to believe Larsa was so fond of THAT jerk of a brother. Or that Vayne fooled his dad, Ondorre and others for so long.

[Setzer Gabianni]

An interesting idea that fell flat on it's face: In the end the game needed a villain and all the ambiguity and "kindness" evaporated from Vayne, making him mad and evil as any villain on a cheesy James Bond rerun. You find hard to believe Larsa was so fond of THAT jerk of a brother. Or that Vayne fooled his dad, Ondorre and others for so long.


To compare him with other villains is kinda stupid. He was manipulative, but I would not say evil to the extent that you seem to be making him out to be. You could see Vayne as a villain, you could see Dr. Cid as a villain. It's like many people in power today, even in previous FF games - they use whatever tactics they can to get what they want, often exposing a dark side to themselves, turning them into wicked dictators. However, with Vayne especially, while he yet remained a villain, he was not hell bent on making every body suffer. His main objective was to free Humes history from Occurian control, and become Dynast King right? Poor sod managed to do it, but it cost him his own life, and he did not become King. It would have been interesting to see however, how he would have become if he ever became Dynast King, but that's never going to happen now - heroes must always triumph.

Vayne loved his brother, always has done - I'm sure that deep down inside, they had a great bond, strained by events through the game unfortunately. Though that may not have been obvious to many, during the last battles you fought with Vayne, Vayne asked Gabranth to protect Larsa. Larsa, despite what Vayne had done, could not stop loving his older sibling. Respect? Was it out of that? Or was it because he felt as if Vayne had been taken in by the power that had long influenced him? He tried hard to make peace, and thought something could be resolved without having to face further death of loved ones, or the impending threat of war.

Lastly, you find it hard to believe he could have fooled everyone for so long about his plans? Isn't that what makes a good villain?
EDIT on this part: Just goes to show he was a clever young man who knew what he was doing for the most part.

I tried to make this an intelligent post, so don't take the piss out of me ._.

[farplaner]

Vayne's intentions are never made totally clear, so it didn't appear to me that he "suddenly becomes a cartoon bad guy". For all we know Vayne's speech in Rabanastre near the beginning was merely a ruse, and his vicious, scheming side is shown from early on anyway.

Exactly! Is no one here familiar with the game of politics? Vayne put on a facade in Rabanastre in order to gain the trust of the population. His intention was domination- I don't think it's any more complicated than that. I mean, is the name "Vayne" not a clear enough clue to his character?

As far as Vanat- who knows! I agree that the whole Occuria thing was left wide open. I mean, who the hell are the Occuria anyway?? For all we know, Vanat was ousted and decided to get revenge by helping to empower the Humes.

I think XII had a good idea in treating "heroes and villains" as more than one-dimensional. True, the developers need more practice with the concept, but it's a step in the right direction- it adds depth to the characters.

I think the strongest example of this is in some of the Judges. Especially, what's-her-name (sorry, can't remember) who speaks out against Vayne after his father is found dead.

[Lynx]

The motivations of the antagonists are pretty poorly explained. Specifically, the game never really delves into why Venat would betray the other Occurians or why there was any need to relinquish Occurian control to begin with. I mean, they where obviously pretty manipulative but we’re given no evidence within the game that their rule was particularly detrimental, nor that humes could do a better job. If we were given a genuine reason as to why it was necessary, I might have been able to consider the whole “Wrestling Ivalice back into the hands of man” jazz more than convenient idealistic nonsense.

in this game you really need to realize everyone has there own personality and thoughts even the Occurians. one might not agree with the rest so it goes and does what it wants.

Venat wanted to take the power away from the Occurians. maybe it had its own intentions besides just give power to life on invalice. maybe it wanted to get rid of the occurians so it could have control over the planet and to do so it manipulates the minds of 2 major parts of the ruleing empire. Vayne and cid.

as for vaynes beginning speach its nice to see that even villains have there nice side but it was more then liekly jsut a trick to gain the trust of the people (polotics). Vayne kills his 2 brothers and his father and the senate too i think (corruption in polotics) as for the judges they dont all agree with Vayne as seen. everyone has there own personality and views. also we cant really think of vayne and venat as good guys because they decided to attack a helpless rabanaste.

[Sophie Peithos]

in this game you really need to realize everyone has there own personality and thoughts even the Occurians. one might not agree with the rest so it goes and does what it wants.

Venat wanted to take the power away from the Occurians. maybe it had its own intentions besides just give power to life on invalice. maybe it wanted to get rid of the occurians so it could have control over the planet and to do so it manipulates the minds of 2 major parts of the ruleing empire. Vayne and cid.
My point is that they never explain said motives. That as such is a sign of poor story telling.

[Skyblade]

Actually, Vayne's duplicitous nature in his political dealings surfaces long before the speech in Rabanastre. Have you guys forgotten his performance for Reks? He made an extremely well crafted act that would allow him to kill a monarch and claim total sovereignty over a kingdom, with a minimum amount of the blame falling on himself. He was, after all, merely bringing a regicide to justice and stepping in to bring order to a country that had lost its ruler. He then has Marquis Ondore announce the death of Princess Ashelia in another excellent ploy to both solidify his own position and undercut his opponents. Ashe is cut off from her birthright, being unable to reclaim her crown without proof, Marquis Ondore can be blackmailed into silence, and Vayne can gain control of Dalmasca with a minimum of friction, since there are supposedly no surviving members of its royal family. He then moves in to become consul of Rabanastre, a move which he admits he had to wait for much longer than he had wanted. This allows him to give a lovely speech to win over the people of Rabanastre (and during that entire speech, I was thinking "wow, this guy knows how to play up to a crowd") and lure the Resistance into a trap. His next political moves are towards the Gran Kiltias, who becomes a threat, since he had the power to confirm Ashe's identity, pass information on to the Rozzarians and to Larsa, and shelter a good many of his enemies. So he has his forces move on Mount Bur-Omisace and kill the Gran Kiltias and reclaim Larsa. His entire career from the beginning has been filled with acts of treachery and cunning. He uses political maneuverings to divide his foes and weaken their support systems, while strengthing his own power base. His actions at home are much the same. First he kills his older brothers, then his father. He places the blame for his father's death on the Senators, the only real opponents to his power left in Archadia, thus removing them from the playing field and securing power for himself. While I have not yet finished the game (I'm heading to the Draklor Laboratories after the death of the Gran Kiltias), even at this point I have yet to see any action by Vayne that is not an attempt to increase his own power base. He didn't suddenly become a villain, he has quite clearly been one from the very beginning.

[Lynx]

in this game you really need to realize everyone has there own personality and thoughts even the Occurians. one might not agree with the rest so it goes and does what it wants.

Venat wanted to take the power away from the Occurians. maybe it had its own intentions besides just give power to life on invalice. maybe it wanted to get rid of the occurians so it could have control over the planet and to do so it manipulates the minds of 2 major parts of the ruleing empire. Vayne and cid.
My point is that they never explain said motives. That as such is a sign of poor story telling.

it ads to the realisticness (if thats a word) of the story though. peoples motives aren't always revealed sometimes they just dwell in the back of the mind.

but i do see your point this is a story and we would like to have things explained. instead of working off of assumptions.

[Renmiri]

My point is that they never explain said motives. That as such is a sign of poor story telling.

Thanks!!! I've been saying it the same for ages around here! :)


but i do see your point this is a story and we would like to have things explained. instead of working off of assumptions.
That is the second writing flaw. The little they tell us is so blatant that it is like "look here idiot!", not subtle at all. For example:

1) Vayne wants to be a sky pirate because he wants to run away from the pain of Reks dying. He flat out tells us. No subtlety or mistery implied. And then he fogets it!!! No more pain for Reks, no more "I wanna be a sky pirate" until the very last scene.

2) The Senate puts Emperor Grammis in a bind: Chose between reigning in Vayne or disobeying his country's law. Pretty obvious scene but the writer finds the need to make Grammis say it out aloud.

So many more examples of "telegraphing the plot" I can barely count. Yet what is real interesting, i.e. where each character is coming from, remains completely hidden and you have to chose your preferred answer. Setzer chose a noble motive for Vayne, most of us saw a petty dictator wanabe. But none of us has any inkling of what the writer aimed for. Because he said it himself, he aimed for nothing.

[Lynx]

. But none of us has any inkling of what the writer aimed for. Because he said it himself, he aimed for nothing.

well with no real goals i think he still was able to create one good story.

ive noticed that some people say they left too much to guessing and some say people would say things to be blatantly obvious. which kinda proves that there will never be a game that everyone loves.

but as for leaveing too mcuh for guessing all FF's do this it is a flaw in writeing and yet i still think they are the best games out there.

[Adam 77]

ok i just finished this game and i must say how dissapointed i was. The story in my opinion is the worst its ever been, there is no real reason why vayne does what he does. I am a huge fan of the series and since after Final Fantasy X they have lost it in mky opinion, they are focusing on more gameplay than actual story!!!! which is a real let down what's the point in going through a game when the story is lacking this is just my opinion and i know you all have your own thoughts bout this game so feel free to share your thoughts.

so yeh on subject didnt like XII :(

[Elpizo]

I think everybody exagerates a LOT when it comes to XII.

"WORST STORY IT TEH SERIES! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!"
Right. Worse than FF I? Don't think so. As nice that time-loop thing and crystals were, the story itself was pretty much non-existant. I greatly prefer FF XII's story to this one. I like characters with personality and story events, thank you.

"WORST CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT IN TEH SERIES! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!"
Worse character development than the Lightwarriors, Firion and co, the 4 Onion kids? Right... And I'm Yazmat.

When people say stuff like that, I can only laugh. When making such claims, please think twice. If you like it or not, the series includes FF I, II and III. NES games or not, they are part of the series. When making great claims like "worst in the series!!!", FF I, II and III have to be taken in mind as well. Otherwise, it is not "worst in the series!" but "worst in teh series without the first 3 FF games!".

Anyway, carry on the complaining and confusion and all the stuff. I've seen stuff like this so many times that I can only think 'again?'. Square Enix, bring FF XIII and silence them, please...

[Adam 77]

its just my opinion ;) yea ok i admit it had a better story than FF1 with the whole crystal thing! but compared from 4 to 10 X12 is like :skull::skull::skull::skull: when it comes to story! :D

[Renmiri]

ive noticed that some people say they left too much to guessing and some say people would say things to be blatantly obvious. which kinda proves that there will never be a game that everyone loves.

but as for leaveing too mcuh for guessing all FF's do this it is a flaw in writeing and yet i still think they are the best games out there.

XII has actually both. Seriously.

The little background info we get is pretty much "shoved in your face", i.e. Vaan tells you he wants to be a sky pirate to run away from the pain of losing Reks. Well, duh! I compare this kind of writing to bad acting:
An actor can't make a convincing angry face so he just says "I'm furious!" while his face and body show "I wonder what the heck is on TV?". Same thing here: Ondorre, Vayne's father, Vaan, Basch, Ashe tell you things that are pretty obvious without them telling you, if the writers had any storytelling skills. (ok, there's a small exaggeration here, but it's to convey my point: Specific words aren't necessary if you can write).

At the same time, the truly important motivations, like what drove Vayne to kill two brothers and his father are left pretty loose and you have to just chose which motivation you like best. Only to have that choice blow up on your face. Here was I thinking Vayne was noble and wanted to save all man from Occuria when he goes to Rabanastre with the Bahamut to obliterate all in his path. :mad: I felt cheated!

So yeah, the plot is both too obvious and too sketchy. Good thing gameplay rocks!!! :love:

[Wolf Kanno]

I love how Skyblade writes this beautiful post that makes perfect logical sense and everyone seems to ignore it and continue on bashing FFXII:rolleyes2



The motivations of the antagonists are pretty poorly explained. Specifically, the game never really delves into why Venat would betray the other Occurians or why there was any need to relinquish Occurian control to begin with. I mean, they where obviously pretty manipulative but we’re given no evidence within the game that their rule was particularly detrimental, nor that humes could do a better job. If we were given a genuine reason as to why it was necessary, I might have been able to consider the whole “Wrestling Ivalice back into the hands of man” jazz more than convenient idealistic nonsense.

Precisely!! All the game says is that they intervened - once - 1,400 years ago to give power to Raithwal, who - gasp - brought peace and prosperity to Ivalice.

We should have such meddling Gods here on Earth!!!

You seem to forget that the Occurians gave Raithwall a weapon on par with our nuclear weapons which means he subjegated all these nations under his own rule. You also forget that "history is written by the winners" so the descendants may remember Raithwall as a compassionate ruler and fair ruler but chances were that several civilizations and cultures were annihalted and forced to assimilate to Raithwall's ideals.

It's almost like President Bush talking about how "Gods on his side" and he uses this in a roundabout way to justify his wars on other cultures.




It seems we agree. Actually the main game writer said so in an interview: It was his aim that good guys had flaws and bad guys showed kindness and specifically that he did not take sides on the conflict, leaving it for the player.

An interesting idea that fell flat on it's face: In the end the game needed a villain and all the ambiguity and "kindness" evaporated from Vayne, making him mad and evil as any villain on a cheesy James Bond rerun. You find hard to believe Larsa was so fond of THAT jerk of a brother. Or that Vayne fooled his dad, Ondorre and others for so long

Read Skyblades post please:D




Which brings me to the point of this thread. I am very confused as to the nature of the antognist characters are they good/evil? I know that you are going to say that its a war and both sides are neither good nor evil but here is my problem. Ok so Vayne seemed like a good guy at the beginning of the game. His speech in Rabanastre seemed convincing which leads me to believe that origanally he was a good character and also the fact that Larsa supported him through much of his BS also leads me to think that he is a good hearted individual. So I guess my question is... Was he a good character who was just corrupted by Venat? because thats what the story makes it seems like... same goes for Cid. I know he was controlled by Venat but was he origanally such an evil character?

Which brings me to my next point... (sorry people try and follow along) So if indeed they were just being controlled by Venat then why were their evil morals supported by the Archadian empire (such as the judges and their army) unless indeed they were evil too. I mean I know they have to follow their orders but they have to understand that Vayne was slowly losing it and reguardless of him being a leader why would they do the things they did, because as soon as you dispose of Vayne it seems like everyone is on the same side. So are all the antagonists in the game just blindly following orders or do you think that had the same beliefs as Vayne... I am so confused :confused:

Once again I feel that Skyblades post beautifully answers this question.

Venat didn't really corrupt anyone. Cid was an individual who placed knowledge and science above family and people. He's unscrupulous in his pursuit for knowledge, but I don't believe he's really evil as much as he just thinks radically different from most people.

Vayne was always power hungry, like a true politician he manipulates people with his words. He wants power, the fact that he thinks of himself as a new Dynast-King at the end of the game just proves this more. Of anything, Vayne wasn't taking out the Occurians cause he wanted to "liberate humanity" (though I feel he used that speech to convince people to join his side) but rather they served as a roadblock to his personal glory. I somehow don't think they would have allowed Archadia to just conquer the world...



The motivations of the antagonists are pretty poorly explained. Specifically, the game never really delves into why Venat would betray the other Occurians or why there was any need to relinquish Occurian control to begin with. I mean, they where obviously pretty manipulative but we’re given no evidence within the game that their rule was particularly detrimental, nor that humes could do a better job. If we were given a genuine reason as to why it was necessary, I might have been able to consider the whole “Wrestling Ivalice back into the hands of man” jazz more than convenient idealistic nonsense.

If you read all the tomes in the Pharos, you get a pretty good idea of what the Occurians are like and how they really feel about life in Ivalice. For those of you who were too busy trying to find their way through the dungeon in hopes of finding a love story that you should have given up on 60 hours ago, I'll paraphrase it for you... They're jerks and they think people are "toys".

They manipulate our history every time they feel like it, we are only told of Raithwall but the game gives you the impression it happens more than we think. Basically, we are birds unaware that we are trapped in a cage. The history of Ivalice is controlled on the whims of a few beings that think of themselves as gods. It's enough reason for me but then again I hate authority.




but i do see your point this is a story and we would like to have things explained. instead of working off of assumptions.
That is the second writing flaw. The little they tell us is so blatant that it is like "look here idiot!", not subtle at all. For example:

1) Vaan wants to be a sky pirate because he wants to run away from the pain of Reks dying. He flat out tells us. No subtlety or mistery implied. And then he fogets it!!! No more pain for Reks, no more "I wanna be a sky pirate" until the very last scene.

2) The Senate puts Emperor Grammis in a bind: Chose between reigning in Vayne or disobeying his country's law. Pretty obvious scene but the writer finds the need to make Grammis say it out aloud.

So many more examples of "telegraphing the plot" I can barely count. Yet what is real interesting, i.e. where each character is coming from, remains completely hidden and you have to chose your preferred answer. Setzer chose a noble motive for Vayne, most of us saw a petty dictator wanabe. But none of us has any inkling of what the writer aimed for. Because he said it himself, he aimed for nothing.

You say there are a lot of scenes but you only bring up these two whenever you mention this.

The Vaan scene in question, I feel Vaan is telling Ashe (who of course knows nothing about him) not the player. I'm sorry you interpreted as the game "telegraphing the plot" but I feel you missed the point of it being a conversation between two people who obviously are unaware of them being watched by an objective third party;)

I prefer some ambiguity to my storytelling and I don't really feel that FFXII did it in a bad way. The fact is, as we have seen, we can choose how to interpret it from our own personal views and I feel XII tells quite a compelling story of human drama. I think people need to stop trying to figure out what the writer was gunning for and just come to your own conclusions. It's the way the story is written and I prefer it over "cut and dry" storytelling cause most of it is bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: that never puts into account how people really think.


ok i just finished this game and i must say how dissapointed i was. The story in my opinion is the worst its ever been, there is no real reason why vayne does what he does. I am a huge fan of the series and since after Final Fantasy X they have lost it in mky opinion, they are focusing on more gameplay than actual story!!!! which is a real let down what's the point in going through a game when the story is lacking this is just my opinion and i know you all have your own thoughts bout this game so feel free to share your thoughts.

so yeh on subject didnt like XII :(

Heaven forbid a video game focuses on gameplay :rolleyes2

If you want a motive read Skyblades post. If you want a story, read a book or watch a movie. (going off on a tangent) I love how people seem to forget that video games are a form of interactive entertainment. And I'm sorry if I seem mean but I've heard this complaint too many times for me to sit idly by and not say the obvious.



ive noticed that some people say they left too much to guessing and some say people would say things to be blatantly obvious. which kinda proves that there will never be a game that everyone loves.

but as for leaveing too mcuh for guessing all FF's do this it is a flaw in writeing and yet i still think they are the best games out there.

XII has actually both. Seriously.

The little background info we get is pretty much "shoved in your face", i.e. Vaan tells you he wants to be a sky pirate to run away from the pain of losing Reks. Well, duh! I compare this kind of writing to bad acting:
An actor can't make a convincing angry face so he just says "I'm furious!" while his face and body show "I wonder what the heck is on TV?". Same thing here: Ondorre, Vayne's father, Vaan, Basch, Ashe tell you things that are pretty obvious without them telling you, if the writers had any storytelling skills. (ok, there's a small exaggeration here, but it's to convey my point: Specific words aren't necessary if you can write).

At the same time, the truly important motivations, like what drove Vayne to kill two brothers and his father are left pretty loose and you have to just chose which motivation you like best. Only to have that choice blow up on your face. Here was I thinking Vayne was noble and wanted to save all man from Occuria when he goes to Rabanastre with the Bahamut to obliterate all in his path. :mad: I felt cheated!

So yeah, the plot is both too obvious and too sketchy. Good thing gameplay rocks!!! :love:

Once again I feel you missed the point of several scenes. If Vayne convinced you he was a nice guy, it proves how well the writer wrote a truly calculating and manipulative character. I think once they mentioned he killed his brothers as well using the Ifrit to kill resistance fighters within the city, one should have figured he was pretty two faced.

I don't know what the other characters said that was so blatanly obvious for you to feel they are being "bad actors" but I feel this comes from you missing how the story is being told. I'm starting to realize that you like certain types of storytelling and expect it from everything. I've said it before but FFXII is only as good as the amount of effort you are willing to put in it.

Btw Renmiri, I don't mean to be mean or condensending. (So please forgive me if I'm offending you:( ) I'm just trying to figure out the heart of the problem here cause I still feel your argument (most people's actually) is pretty vague and based more on a personal bias and unrealistic expectations rather than actual merit.

[Hazzard]

I can't wait to read this whole thread, once I complete the game.

[Elpizo]

I want to add on the subject of the so called "In the end Vayne just goes all Hulk and Mechanic to destroy all, like every FF villain", in my opinion, Vayne didn't want to destroy everything as The Undying. He just wanted to die. How would a guy like Vayne want to die? Right, in battle. This can pretty much be concluded from his words "Won't Cid be eager to learn what has happened here". Meaning, he wants to go to Cid, by dying, not destroy everything. I think Vayne realized he was going to loose anyway, so he just wanted to die in the way he deems worthy for him, leaving the future to his brother, Larsa.

Most villains that want the world go 'Poof', say so. Kuja, Kefka, Zeromus, NeoExDeath, Necron, Cloud of Darkness, Ultimecia, in the end they all said they would make the world/whatever end. Vayne never did. All he said was that he was going to go to Cid. So the "Vayne goes mad and becomes the cliché destroy-all Final Boss" statement is pretty much false I think.

And Venat. Well, Venat... I think he wanted to die too. But he was an Undying. So perhaps that's why he merged with Vayne, to become mortal and thus go to Cid together with Vayne. These three seemed to be pretty close, anyway.

Just my thoughts on the Final Battles, which are complained about a lot as well. So what if Vayne goes Hulk and then super-mechanical-winged-monster? Tree of Sephira was pwnage, the Undying's attacks owned as well and 'Battle for Freedom' is a very good track. At least it's better than Yu Yevon, I mean, yeah...

[Renmiri]

Meh... We jousted so often about the story WK that I think it's a waste of time for me to repeat my reasons. I did like all this jousting with you, skyblade and others because you guys made me see a lot of things on XII that I saw nowhere in the game.

If you guys haven't noticed yet, I love the game, just for different reasons than you do.

Being an amateur writer, the storytelling is very important for me and I didn't like what I saw in XII. It obviously has some problems with it. 3 continents have played and 3 continents had people feeling like me.

Maybe that's just me being being "subjective" or me "missing the story" who knows ? I always thought of myself as being good in text interpretation, I never had problems with it before and got good grades in my writing classes. But there's a first time for everything, right ?

[Wolf Kanno]

Meh... We jousted so often about the story WK that I think it's a waste of time for me to repeat my reasons. I did like all this jousting with you, skyblade and others because you guys made me see a lot of things on XII that I saw nowhere in the game.

If you guys haven't noticed yet, I love the game, just for different reasons than you do.

Being an amateur writer, the storytelling is very important for me and I didn't like what I saw in XII. It obviously has some problems with it. 3 continents have played and 3 continents had people feeling like me.

Maybe that's just me being being "subjective" or me "missing the story" who knows ? I always thought of myself as being good in text interpretation, I never had problems with it before and got good grades in my writing classes. But there's a first time for everything, right ?

Yeah I know we've done this routine several times but someone has to stand up to you;)

I know you like the game for different reasons but I will vehemetly defend the storyline cause I personally liked it.

Also, I'm sorry if my post sounded like I was questioning your ability to write and understand proper story structure, it wasn't. Of anything I feel you just have an ideal set of criteria for proper story writing (which is natural for writers) and FFXII just didn't measure up to this criteria in your eyes. god knows I'm a lousy writer and I have my own bias' which prevent me from ever liking FFX in terms of writing and character work. I still believe that Yuna is incredibly two dimensional and flat as a character, as well as the sole problem with the FFX storyline. I just try to show you how I interpret the story based on my personal criteria.

Sorry if I seemed like an ass but I did write it around 3:30 in the morning where I am so I may have been pretty cranky :laughing:

As for your post Elpizo. I don't necessary agree with Vayne wanting to die cause he was immortal but I do feel you bring up some interesting points on Venat who will always be a figure of specualtion on these forums. Honestly, I'm waiting for the "Venat theory" threads to start in another year after the fresh car smell of FFXII wears off.

[Elpizo]

As for your post Elpizo. I don't necessary agree with Vayne wanting to die cause he was immortal but I do feel you bring up some interesting points on Venat who will always be a figure of specualtion on these forums. Honestly, I'm waiting for the "Venat theory" threads to start in another year after the fresh car smell of FFXII wears off.
As far as I remember, Vayne wasn't immortal, Venat was. Vayne's final form may have been 'The Undying', but in the end he still went 'Poof'. And maybe he didn't want to die, but I do believe Vayne knew he was going to die. But, it's just my view on this, feel free to believe differently.

[Avarice-ness]

I think everybody exagerates a LOT when it comes to XII.

"WORST STORY IT TEH SERIES! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!"
Right. Worse than FF I? Don't think so. As nice that time-loop thing and crystals were, the story itself was pretty much non-existant. I greatly prefer FF XII's story to this one. I like characters with personality and story events, thank you.

"WORST CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT IN TEH SERIES! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!"
Worse character development than the Lightwarriors, Firion and co, the 4 Onion kids? Right... And I'm Yazmat.

When people say stuff like that, I can only laugh. When making such claims, please think twice. If you like it or not, the series includes FF I, II and III. NES games or not, they are part of the series. When making great claims like "worst in the series!!!", FF I, II and III have to be taken in mind as well. Otherwise, it is not "worst in the series!" but "worst in teh series without the first 3 FF games!".

Anyway, carry on the complaining and confusion and all the stuff. I've seen stuff like this so many times that I can only think 'again?'. Square Enix, bring FF XIII and silence them, please...


Actally I agree with him. o o
I consider this the worst in the -entire- series. FF1 to FFXII, I guess I could add Mystic Quest into the equation just to make it beat something, and it's not by much either.

I was able to bear through FFI and beat it, I couldn't stand 12 hours of this game. This is honestly the -only- Final fantasy I regret buying or ever deciding to buy.

Yeah I all I did was get to the dreadnaught leviathan, but I was so burnt out from drabness and running around like it was an MMO, that it was either I turn the game off or I break the cd in half.

No one mind me though, this game just made me loose all hope for the future of final fantasy, I'll prolly rent the next one when it comes out. I don't want to be disappointed again.. :(

[Renmiri]

No prob WK. I was cranky too ;)

I don't think we will ever agree on X and XII but we can at least try to keep the debates fun, right ?

[Bolivar]

Actally I agree with him. o o
I consider this the worst in the -entire- series. FF1 to FFXII, I guess I could add Mystic Quest into the equation just to make it beat something, and it's not by much either.

I was able to bear through FFI and beat it, I couldn't stand 12 hours of this game. This is honestly the -only- Final fantasy I regret buying or ever deciding to buy.

Yeah I all I did was get to the dreadnaught leviathan, but I was so burnt out from drabness and running around like it was an MMO, that it was either I turn the game off or I break the cd in half.

No one mind me though, this game just made me loose all hope for the future of final fantasy, I'll prolly rent the next one when it comes out. I don't want to be disappointed again.. :(

its a good thing you did, because if you didn't like the first 12 hours you definately wouldn't have liked the rest. coincidentally, the leviathan is the same place where i first really started questioning whether or not i would like this game.

and as sad as it sounds, i also gotta agree, FF1 (DoS) may be a little better than this game. i have to give XII another playthrough to give it a really fair analysis, but as of right now, i don't think it holds up well to the rest of the series.

ill probably do that after beating TA2 + revenant wings when they come out, although im definately not doing any sidequests, so i can actually get a decent story to gameplay ratio

[FFI Fan]

Hello all,
I have enjoyed everyone's posts here and have been greatly entertained by everyone's posts so far.
But my main question is to Renmiri, it seems you have had a problem with Vayne going cliche destroy the world bad guy. Well my question is how would you have finished FF XII? how would you have written it out?

[Renmiri]

I think I'd make Vayne a bit more nuanced at the end, i.e. more bent on helping humanity - including Dalmasca - get rid of the Occuria and less the mass murderer wannabe. It just got too cheesy.

The entire "freeing men from Occuria" plot was a very interesting twist and very creative IMHO but it got mishandled on the execution. Vayne was made - particularly in the end - as the cheesy 2 dimensional "I want power" clichee bad guy and Cid was made into a loony bin.

Judging by Cid's son the Doctor had been a smart wise guy once, and he was a scientist. Hard to believe he would turn into that lunatic from Pharos tower.

Gabranth was the only convincing, non cheesy villain IMHO.

Ashe's turning her back on people who risked their lives for her was the height of bitchiness to me, that is another thing I'd change :mad:

[Setzer Gabianni]

Bolivar, please play it through first. Not expecting you to LOVE IT LIKE ME XD, but, to play it once fully, would be cool so we could discuss and stuff ^^

[Bolivar]

Bolivar, please play it through first. Not expecting you to LOVE IT LIKE ME XD, but, to play it once fully, would be cool so we could discuss and stuff ^^

? I beat it a few weeks/month or two ago. I didn't post here until I did so.

I take back alot of my comments in this thread about this game. It was very well done. The only problem is the gameplay-to-story ratio, which is a real shame, because in retrospect, this game has a great story. Maybe one of the best in the series? We'll see. Like I said in my last post in this thread, I wanna play through this game again to get a good feel for it. But I started a FFI game, about to beat that, i don't know. i think i'm gonna play through the whole series in order.

[FFI Fan]

Renmiri,

I have reread your post a couple of times, and although I appercaite you responding to my post, you really haven't answered my question though? Okay, I get you hate that Vayne went too crazy and out of charcter in the end, and it seems no one can convince you otherwise, BUT, how should FFXII have ended? I mean, what would have been the final battle in your eyes, would you have Vayne join your party and fight who? Or what would have happened? What would have made you happy as a game ending? Could anything have pleased you?

As of now, I can not get a feel on if you TOTALLY hated the story or you just hated Vayne going postal and the lack of Venat story. if you simply hated the whole story and the dialogue, please say so, so I will not be so confused.

[Lynx]

a lot of people seem to dislike this game i have such a hard time understanding why. i thought it was obvious why vayne eventually went insane. a group of 6 is wiping out an entire empire. desperate times call for desperate measures. in the grips of defeat he lost his mind. also im sure venat by his side influencing helped too.

and as for Vayne why did he kill his brothers and the senate??? that should be very obvious it was the same reason he killed his father to be in control. he left larsa alive probably thinking the oldest of course would be the ruler.

[Wolf Kanno]

a lot of people seem to dislike this game i have such a hard time understanding why. i thought it was obvious why vayne eventually went insane. a group of 6 is wiping out an entire empire. desperate times call for desperate measures. in the grips of defeat he lost his mind. also im sure venat by his side influencing helped too.

and as for Vayne why did he kill his brothers and the senate??? that should be very obvious it was the same reason he killed his father to be in control. he left larsa alive probably thinking the oldest of course would be the ruler.

Most reasons are because they didn't like the lack of a well defined love story, the lack of interpersonal interaction of the party (though I feel there is enough), and what Bolivar said: "The story to game ratio was off", there is also some issues with the liscence board and gambit system but I find most arguements concerning these to be caused by nitpicking and a general lack of imagination from the player themselves. Both systems are wonderful if you make the most of them.

The cast and plot comes down to personal taste but I feel they get ratted on more than they really deserve. I only wish the future FF's could tell stories like the way they were presented in XII.


As for Larsa and Vayne's relationship... that never quite made sense to me. If Vayne was only after power, why leave his younger (and more loved) brother alive? He's a political liability. It was for this reason I thought Vayne was actually trying to "teach and guide" Larsa into being a kind and good ruler. In his earlier dialogues in the game, I got the impression that Vayne was doing everything for Larsa's benefit. Yet when you get to the last dungeon... that isn't how it's played out, nor is there any real hint except for the short scene where Larsa pleads with Vayne not to demolish Dalmasca. Then you get to the final boss battle and Vayne's final moments and you get the usual "power hungry villain speech".

I do feel that if Vayne's real motive was to set up the world for Larsa and to lead him down the path to be a better ruler than he and their father was, then Vayne would have been a truly captivating villain cause he would be more of a martyr than anything. He "bloodied" his hands and played the role of the villain in order to teach Larsa a valuable lesson about abusing power while at the same time removing the obstacle to humanity's freedom. But alas, the game doesn't do it.:cry:

[FFI Fan]

Wolf Kanno,

Me and you seem to look at this game in the same way. I have really REALLY enjoyed your posts as you seem to open my eyes on a few things. But anyway, I asked Renmiri earlier to no reply, but now I would like to know how you would have liked for the game to end? Or did you think the ending was perfect? What would you have added to the game? If their is a sequal to FF 12, what direction would you like to see it go? yada, yada,

By the way, have you ever played Suikoden 2 or Final Fantasy Tactics, these are two games I am sure you would haved liked as well...

[Renmiri]

I asked Renmiri earlier to no reply

http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-xii/103414-so-i-just-finished-i-am-little-confused-whole-thread-spoiler.html#post2180056

[Wolf Kanno]

I think I'd make Vayne a bit more nuanced at the end, i.e. more bent on helping humanity - including Dalmasca - get rid of the Occuria and less the mass murderer wannabe. It just got too cheesy.

The entire "freeing men from Occuria" plot was a very interesting twist and very creative IMHO but it got mishandled on the execution. Vayne was made - particularly in the end - as the cheesy 2 dimensional "I want power" clichee bad guy and Cid was made into a loony bin.

Judging by Cid's son the Doctor had been a smart wise guy once, and he was a scientist. Hard to believe he would turn into that lunatic from Pharos tower.

Gabranth was the only convincing, non cheesy villain IMHO.

Ashe's turning her back on people who risked their lives for her was the height of bitchiness to me, that is another thing I'd change :mad:

I think this is what you are looking for FFI Fan...

I almost should link you to half a dozen other threads where Renmiri and I have had a verbal tango on the subject of XII's plot...;)

[FFI Fan]

Whoops sorry, Renmiri, I saw that before but forgot about it when I made my latest post.

[Renmiri]

:D Aye, you should WK :D

Basically FFX I Fan, considering my opinion on the whole plot, the ending was pretty good. I would have made Vayne less bloodthirsty and more ambivalent about the need to be against Larsa in the end, and would have made Ashe still be good friends with everyone (the beatch just dumped the people who saved her life and her kingdom :mad:) but other than that, it was a pretty good ending.

Had the entire plot been as good as the ending I might not bitch about the story so much. Alas, the end was too little to late for me.... ;) I like XII gameplay, bestiary, world design, etc.. and enjoyed the game a lot, but story wasn't part of what I enjoyed on it.

[Wolf Kanno]

http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-xii/102046-game-awful.html Still mad about this one:mad:

http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-xii/97738-you-launchies-month-later.html I miss Timerk:cry:

http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-xii/96596-could-best-final-fantasy.html I don't really debate with you but your conversation with LazarCotoron was interesting to read...

Most of our other arguments are short and comical really... ;)

[Renmiri]

I don't really debate with you but your conversation with LazarCotoron was interesting to read...

Most of our other arguments are short and comical really... ;)

Well, you showed me a lot of positive things about XII on other threads, more recent ones. And I agreed, so it wasn't really a debate per se.

But I still think X rules in story telling while XII rules in battle system ;)

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't really debate with you but your conversation with LazarCotoron was interesting to read...

Most of our other arguments are short and comical really... ;)

Well, you showed me a lot of positive things about XII on other threads, more recent ones. And I agreed, so it wasn't really a debate per se.

But I still think X rules in story telling while XII rules in battle system ;)

Tactics blows both of them out of the water in terms of both story and gameplay:cool:

To be fair, you are one of only a small few of FFX fans I respect on these forums and you have also showed me a few things about both X and XII I didn't see before.

I still believe most of the FFs beat X in every category though;)

[Renmiri]

Pfft! Forgive him Yevon, he has been hit on the head by Gabranth's helmet ;)

[Ouch!]

Based on many of the little things that pop up in Final Fantasy XII (most notably many of the bestiary entries), it became apparent to me that the Ivalice of FFXII had far more development and backstory than any other Final Fantasy world today. The potential was all there, and I honestly believe that the development team wanted to make the most of it.

The result, however, was a watered-down version of Final Fantasy Tactic's plot. Tactics has, perhaps, the best plot of any video game I've ever played. Similarly to FFXII, Tactics sported a plot revolving entirely around medieval politics. The main difference is that Tactics doesn't have a number tacked on it. I think that the XII in the title severely limited the complexity of FFXII's story.

It's actually rather disappointing, because it's obvious that FFXII's plot could have been absolutely fantastic. The mediocre story isn't because the team lacked creativity and the ability to make something complex and intriguing, it's because if the plot was anywhere near as involved as it should have been, the result would have been the same as Final Fantasy Tactics--a game you have to follow very, very closely to understand what the hell is going on. Based on how many people absolutely hate Tactics for that reason, dumbing down the plot of FFXII was merely a marketing move.

That's how I feel about it, anyway.

[Renmiri]

Based on many of the little things that pop up in Final Fantasy XII (most notably many of the bestiary entries), it became apparent to me that the Ivalice of FFXII had far more development and backstory than any other Final Fantasy world today. The potential was all there, and I honestly believe that the development team wanted to make the most of it.

The result, however, was a watered-down version

Aye, it took me ages to even LIKE the game, because I was so pi$$ed off with all the wasted potential :mad:

In the end it was a fun game, that I played even longer than my favorite (FFX) but it was not the best FF that I ever played. It could have been, though :eep:

[Wolf Kanno]

Based on many of the little things that pop up in Final Fantasy XII (most notably many of the bestiary entries), it became apparent to me that the Ivalice of FFXII had far more development and backstory than any other Final Fantasy world today. The potential was all there, and I honestly believe that the development team wanted to make the most of it.

The result, however, was a watered-down version of Final Fantasy Tactic's plot. Tactics has, perhaps, the best plot of any video game I've ever played. Similarly to FFXII, Tactics sported a plot revolving entirely around medieval politics. The main difference is that Tactics doesn't have a number tacked on it. I think that the XII in the title severely limited the complexity of FFXII's story.

It's actually rather disappointing, because it's obvious that FFXII's plot could have been absolutely fantastic. The mediocre story isn't because the team lacked creativity and the ability to make something complex and intriguing, it's because if the plot was anywhere near as involved as it should have been, the result would have been the same as Final Fantasy Tactics--a game you have to follow very, very closely to understand what the hell is going on. Based on how many people absolutely hate Tactics for that reason, dumbing down the plot of FFXII was merely a marketing move.

That's how I feel about it, anyway.

You know, I have seriously debated this. Though I feel XII's plot is better than a lot of the numbered FFs I don't feel like it lived up to Matsuo's normal storytelling level. Both Tactics and Vagrant Story tell incredibly complex stories but TA and XII have both always given me the impression they were dumbed down.

I can't say for sure though. Usually the plot is completely written up before production and we know Matsuo left mid developement (the game was in playable form) so we can assume the plot is the way it's suppose to be. Perhaps, Squeenix asked him to make something more "user friendly" but this is pure specualtion. I guess we'll never know until the man shows up again. He has not made a public appearance since 04 if I remember correctly.

[Renmiri]

The plot of XII is not bad at all. The execution is what was lacking, i.e. how the plot was communicated to players. They violated a lot of good writing maxims on the way they did it. Good writers can do that and still come up with a killer story, i.e, Fargo by the brother's Cohen, which violated pretty much every golden rule Syd Field and others "in the know" set for script writing. (http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2593801517891533127/posts/default?start-index=26&max-results=25) Alas, the game script writers were no brothers Cohen so the story flailed in spite of a good creative plot ;)

BTW: Writing rules violated on Fargo
1) We are never told why the husband needs the kidnapping done
2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (the japanese guy)
3) A protagonist is pregnant yet is the main "action" character
4) Several plot twists that "redraw" the story
5) Clichee:Mean cartoonish villain (blond guy)
6) Clichee: Dumb sidekick (small guy)
7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (wood chipper scene)
8) Ambiguous morals (Father in law is a jerk, husband is a bad guy but sympathetic)
...

And it won an Oscar...

Writing rules violated on XII
1) We are never told why Vaan tags along with Ashe, why Basch fiercely protects Dalmasca, what resistance leaqder is Ashe that doesn't even know her uncle is on her side, etc..
2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (Havharro, Miguelo, Drace...)
3) A protagonist is not the leader yet is the main "action" character (Vaan)
4) Several plot twists that "redraw" the story
5) Clichee: Mean cartoonish villain (Vayne), Mad scientist (Dr. Cid)
6) Clichee: Dumb sidekick (Bergan), Evil twin (Gabi)....
7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (Resistance ships, almost Rabanastre)
8) Ambiguous morals (Occuria are jerks, Dr. Cid is a bad guy but his plight is sympathetic)
...

;)

[Wolf Kanno]

The plot of XII is not bad at all. The execution is what was lacking, i.e. how the plot was communicated to players. They violated a lot of good writing maxims on the way they did it. Good writers can do that and still come up with a killer story, i.e, Fargo by the brother's Cohen, which violated pretty much every golden rule Syd Field and others "in the know" set for script writing. (http://www.blogger.com/feeds/2593801517891533127/posts/default?start-index=26&max-results=25) Alas, the game script writers were no brothers Cohen so the story flailed in spite of a good creative plot ;)

BTW: Writing rules violated on Fargo
1) We are never told why the husband needs the kidnapping done
2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (the japanese guy)
3) A protagonist is pregnant yet is the main "action" character
4) Several plot twists that "redraw" the story
5) Clichee:Mean cartoonish villain (blond guy)
6) Clichee: Dumb sidekick (small guy)
7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (wood chipper scene)
8) Ambiguous morals (Father in law is a jerk, husband is a bad guy but sympathetic)
...


;)

First off: Fargo is a horrible movie...
Second: The Oscars are the last thing anyone should ever use to act as a judgement system to determine what's "good" in the movie industry.


Writing rules violated on XII
1) We are never told why Vaan tags along with Ashe, why Basch fiercely protects Dalmasca, what resistance leaqder is Ashe that doesn't even know her uncle is on her side, etc..

The opening of the game is all about how Vaan is trying to "help Dalmasca" in fact he only gets mixed up in all this nonsense cause of his lame brain scheme to steal from the royal treasury before the Archadians get to it. His motive is later made even clearer in his conversations to Basch when they return to Rabanastre and Vaan talks about the war orphans and the mistreatment the people have suffered under Imperial rule. Did you want him to come out say specifically why so you can add it to your "telegraphing the plot" argument;) ?

Basch is trying to protect his new home. He has seen first hand what happens to kingdoms overtakened by the empire and hopes to succeed where he has failed before. Interestingly enough, his conversation with Gabranth at the end where Gabranth curses him for abandoning their homeland gives an inclination that perhaps Basch is also trying to redeem himself for what happened in his past. This is pure specualtion but it's logically sound.

As for Ashe, the game gives the impression that only Vossler knew the the truth. Basch didn't find out until after he met up with the resistance in Rabanastre and spoke with Vossler directly. The Marquis was most likely trying to do his best to keep his involvement a secret in hopes that he can get more intel on the Empire, thus he told no one. Most of the resistance was against Ashe being involved in the actual fighting since the Marquis did so much to fake her death and allow her to go underground. I don't think anyone plaaned on her getting personally involved in the war for the kingdom's independance but Lady Ashe is definetly a "hands on" kind of woman.;)


2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (Havharro, Miguelo, Drace...)

Migelo is a traditional "parent" in a JRPG. Their role basically ends once the "children" prove they can stand on their own feet and leave the "nest". But he does still have a few minor roles based on Mark Hunts... But honestly, Migelo is mostly a character used to show the player how Dalmasca has survived under political rule. He's a prominent figure who basically pays off the imperial dignitaries and soldiers to "look the other way". It's a quality that Vaan hates and is used to fuel his hatred for the empire.

Drace (though I regret her role was rather small) is also a symbolic figure to show not only the opposition within the empire for Vayne but also to serve as an "example" of those who oppose Vayne. She's a different political force in the empire which gets stamped out by Vayne to prove his authority is absolute. I also feel her death was created to show the conflict that Gabranth has within him. It showed a more "human side" to him. He opposes Vayne but follows orders in order to keep his promise to the late emperor. It showed his loyalty and determination.

You have me with Havharro though, as I cannot even remember who this character is.:(


3) A protagonist is not the leader yet is the main "action" character (Vaan)

I don't necessarily understand what you mean hear I'm afraid...

Vaan is the first character we are "properly" introduced to, as well as being the character most likely to identify with the target audiance for the series (12-18 year olds). Also this happens in plenty of other stories (BoF IV is a perfect example) but honestly we are seeing the story slightly through his eyes since we started with him, but also as I've stated before that Vaan's growth in the story comes from him being an observer. He's hardly an "action" character as his role is mostly relegated to him observing the adults.


Several plot twists that "redraw" the story


This applies to every JRPG on the market, including FFX:p


5) Clichee: Mean cartoonish villain (Vayne), Mad scientist (Dr. Cid)
Vayne's pretty damn manipulative so he's not exactly cartoonish... but most of this thread is about how Vayne and Cid are in the story and I feel there are quite a few convincing arguments on the contrary.



6) Clichee: Dumb sidekick (Bergan), Evil twin (Gabi)....

Bergan is your atypical fanatical supporter. He believes strongly in Vayne"s methods and ideals and saw the former Emperor as "weak" this is all explained in the Judge meeting where Drace is murdered.

On a pure specualtive note: Since Bergan is one of the older Judges, it stands to reason he came from a different era than some of the others. He most likely held this position in the days Vayne killed his brothers and the wars that took Noah and Basch's homeland. He's a hardliner like General McDouglas who lacks the judgement to know when to deal with a situation diplomatically.

As for the Evil twin thing... Gabranth is far from an evil character and despite what most people think. Twins are used in mature storytelling very often MGS, DMC, and The Man behind the Iron Mask are the very few I can think of. It's mostly used in Scooby Doo cartoons ;) Also, unlike many "twin" stories, XII never dwells on it. It used to show how the empire takes advantage of a situation but it's not like every time the empire needed to throw a wrench in the parties plans they had Gabranth pretending to be Basch and do something... :shifty: EVIL!!!!

I feel the games lack of focus on this matter removes it from the standard cliche department.


7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (Resistance ships, almost Rabanastre)


Welcome to the real world... People fight for ideals, homelands, and to protect what's important to them. Our history is a testament to this. It's not "bad writing" when all one has to do is open a history book or even a newspaper and see that it's something that happens everyday.


8) Ambiguous morals (Occuria are jerks, Dr. Cid is a bad guy but his plight is sympathetic)


Once again, welcome to the real world...;) Despite what most people think, the world is not "black or white" but just shades of gray. People have their own ideals of morality and there really is no such thing as "universal morality". There are times of a "majority morality" but that's generally due to sociolization within a culture. Conflict usually springs up when these different views clash with each other. In fact, Squall from FFVIII says it perfectly...

"There is no right or wrong in war, just people with different views"

Ambiguous morlas are not really a story writing no-no, in fact most times it leads to stronger storytelling cause it's up to those expereincing the story to come to their own conclusions.

In the case of the last two, I feel FFXII's story represents the defining aspect of what art is... Art is a reflection of society and culture.

Just like old times...:)

[Omni-Odin]

Once again we've established that FFXII just has too many plotholes to ignore. Hopefully Revenant Wings covers it at some point.

[Wolf Kanno]

Once again we've established that FFXII just has too many plotholes to ignore. Hopefully Revenant Wings covers it at some point.


And what plotholes are these Omni-Odin?:)

[Shattered Dreamer]

Where is the love story gone? You mean we have to settle for Ashe's love of Dalmasca!!!After Squall & Rinoa & then Cloud & Aeris/Tifa I'm expected to swallow that. The potential in FFXII for a love story was sorely wasted. You can't deny Ashe had more than Knight/Queen feelings for Basch & he for her with his reaction to her letter. She also displays feeling Balthier but again no development. Was Balthier & Fran meant to be our love story then? And of course Vaan & Penelo, are we supposed to believe that partners meant partners in crime but then you consider Penelo seem to have a thing for Larsa. Final Fantasy always had some kind of love story but FFXII what happened?

[Renmiri]

WK, I'm in a hurry now but I shall be back to refute your points one by one... Meanwhile, you should read a bit more about Fargo and the Brothers Cohen. Honestly, anyone who loves writing should... :)

[Wolf Kanno]

Where is the love story gone? You mean we have to settle for Ashe's love of Dalmasca!!!After Squall & Rinoa & then Cloud & Aeris/Tifa I'm expected to swallow that. The potential in FFXII for a love story was sorely wasted. You can't deny Ashe had more than Knight/Queen feelings for Basch & he for her with his reaction to her letter. She also displays feeling Balthier but again no development. Was Balthier & Fran meant to be our love story then? And of course Vaan & Penelo, are we supposed to believe that partners meant partners in crime but then you consider Penelo seem to have a thing for Larsa. Final Fantasy always had some kind of love story but FFXII what happened?

Never have I ever felt that the love story was the defining feature in the FF series. In fact the best ones are the suttle ones like VI/VII's love stories. Though XII did have the potential for several love stories, I for one, am grateful it was not readily present. The series needs to mix it up abit from time to time.


WK, I'm in a hurry now but I shall be back to refute your points one by one... Meanwhile, you should read a bit more about Fargo and the Brothers Cohen. Honestly, anyone who loves writing should... :)

I'm looking forward to it but alas, I cannot find myself liking Fargo. It's intriguing at times but never held my interest. The acting was flat and in the end, I still believe it's due to the perfect Wisconsin accents that made people like this movie rather than anything else;) .

[Renmiri]

It's the perfect Wisconsin EVERYTHING. The script writers captured the angst and pain undercurrents in such a nice calm place and situation - an adorable husband /wife & kid family in Smallville USA - and showed it very convincingly, nothing feels fake about it. It is a ghastly, gruesome crime, the kind you would expect on NY or LA, not in Podunk, IA. And do you want a less likely "hero" than a fat 9 months pregnant sheriff ? Yet she and the movie comes out perfectly believable. Takes A LOT of writing and acting skills to pull that off!

Now to business... :p

Writing rules violated on XII
1) We are never told why Vaan tags along with Ashe, why Basch fiercely protects Dalmasca, what resistance leaqder is Ashe that doesn't even know her uncle is on her side, etc..

The opening of the game is all about how Vaan is trying to "help Dalmasca" i... Did you want him to come out say specifically why so you can add it to your "telegraphing the plot" argument;) ?
Vaan actually says he has no reason twice: "I don't want to just be left behind here" in Bhujerba and later to Balthier's question of "what do you want" he answers "you know..."

I do admire your talent for filling in the blanks for the script writers though :love:

2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (Havharro, Miguelo, Drace...)

Drace (though I regret her role was rather small) ..
Precisely. All those extras had roles that were rather small (Havahro is the Bhujerba resistance leader that meets Vaan). Rikken, Elsa and Raz (the 3 Reddas groupies), Tomaj.... The "rules" say that if you introduce a character you should take time to put him on the story, otherwise you are just disrupting the flow of the narrative and confusing the reader.

On Fargo, they managed to pull it off, introducing a random Japanese friend of the sheriff woman, because they made it a tale about loneliness in big cities. I mean, hitting on an older pregnant woman ? How desperate is that ? It all fit the plot and theme about how big cities and small cities have similar woes deep down, even though it was a random character that was never heard off again. His appearance was the exact "size" to convey that message and exit stage left. Had he shown up again it would just disrupt the story.

On XII we are left wanting more of the characters. The inner struggle within the Empire deserved more than 1 minute cut scene, and so did Reddas friends, the resistance, etc...

3) A protagonist is not the leader yet is the main "action" character (Vaan)

I don't necessarily understand what you mean hear I'm afraid...
Do you want a less likely "hero" than Fargo's fat 9 months pregnant older woman ? Yet it works. when you watch the movie you truly believe she is the one investigating the crime and catching the perps

Vaan OTOH is a dream filled younger brother that could turn out to be a hero easily, yet never quite "works". No one leaves the game with the impression he is the leader of anything, that he was the driving force behind the quests, etc...

Again, the "rules" are to make sure your protagonist is believable as hero or villain, not to make a sidekick your protagonist. Takes a lot of skill to pull it off a believable sidekick protagonist.

IMHO the writers on X did that well. Tidus is a sidekick to Auron and Yuna yet you follow his exploits. You truly believe he is the main character. The narration trick helped a lot but the entire script was very well written in this aspect.

Several plot twists that "redraw" the story

This applies to every JRPG on the market, including FFX:p
True, but some do it better than others ;)


5) Clichee: Mean cartoonish villain (Vayne), Mad scientist (Dr. Cid), Dumb sidekick (Bergan), Evil twin (Gabi)....

Bergan is your atypical typical fanatical supporter. He believes strongly in Vayne"s methods and ideals and saw the former Emperor as "weak" this is all explained in the Judge meeting where Drace is murdered.
Well, again, the golden rules tell writers to use few or no clichees. And again, some good writers can use 100 clichees and make a masterpiece, while most of us can't manage that. I personally feel XII writers used way too many clichees and it made the story less readable / viewable because of it. The "not so-evil" twin was a good twist but when they added to the rest made it too much IMHO. Felt like eating stale leftovers from way too many stories ;)


On a pure specualtive note: Since Bergan is one of the older Judges, it stands to reason he came from a different era than some of the others. He most likely held this position in the days Vayne killed his brothers and the wars that took Noah and Basch's homeland. He's a hardliner like General McDouglas who lacks the judgement to know when to deal with a situation diplomatically.
I just love how you can fill in the blanks. You should rewrite XII's script someday :D

]7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (Resistance ships, almost Rabanastre)

Welcome to the real world... People fight for ideals, homelands, and to protect what's important to them. Our history is a testament to this. It's not "bad writing" when all one has to do is open a history book or even a newspaper and see that it's something that happens everyday
Last time I checked we had no Aeons here ;) The attack on Mt. Bur-Omisace's refugee camp was completely unnecessary to the plot, as were the "mommy, talk to me mommy" heartbreaking NPC dialogs there. It spoiled my enjoyment of that portion of the game, particularly because it is never addressed at the end. Ashe and Larsa never sent relief supplies or anything. Another plot string left untied, raised for the sheer heck of it then abandoned

X had a much darker, bloodier plot. Continuous genocide for 1,000 years ? A land of widows and orphans ? Yet we get to DO something against it and the entire sunny cheery landscape distracts you from the horrible reality the world of Spira faces. On XII the genocide seems like an after thought that no one, not even you, should care about.


8) Ambiguous morals (Occuria are jerks, Dr. Cid is a bad guy but his plight is sympathetic)

Once again, welcome to the real world...;) Despite what most people think, the world is not "black or white" but just shades of gray...

Ambiguous morals are not really a story writing no-no, in fact most times it leads to stronger storytelling
You are correct. But writing a story with ambiguous morals is harder to get it to work. I feel the XII script writers fell short on it. They presented blacks and whites and left up to you to make it "gray". A better writer would have made a masterpiece with all the nuances of the plot arch. The Occuria being jerks and Cid/ Vayne's alleged quest to free humanity from them was a very creative idea and it was very poorly explored IMHO.

So was the sibling relationship of Vayne and Larsa. Or Gramis change of heart with old age... So many plot openings left untied / unexplored.

IMHO they cut the XII script development in half at SE. You can clearly see many ideas added for later fleshing out that were never finished.

[Neo-Omega Mk XXV]

I think the question of whether or not traditional writing "rules" (and as an aside I care little for traditional "rules" in artistic domains) apply to video games is still open. It goes without saying that an interactive medium is very different from a non-interactive one, probably in ways that hardly anyone has theorized yet.

That said, some of Renmiri's specific points are still worth replying to, though WK has done a good job with several of them:



1) We are never told why Vaan tags along with Ashe, why Basch fiercely protects Dalmasca, what resistance leaqder is Ashe that doesn't even know her uncle is on her side, etc..
2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (Havharro, Miguelo, Drace...)
3) A protagonist is not the leader yet is the main "action" character (Vaan)
4) Several plot twists that "redraw" the story
5) Clichee: Mean cartoonish villain (Vayne), Mad scientist (Dr. Cid)
6) Clichee: Dumb sidekick (Bergan), Evil twin (Gabi)....
7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (Resistance ships, almost Rabanastre)
8) Ambiguous morals (Occuria are jerks, Dr. Cid is a bad guy but his plight is sympathetic)


1) is pretty much a video game staple, and there seems little reason to single out FFXII for it. There's nothing remotely plausible about a blitzball playing 17 year old with an outfit that looks like it was rejected from Kefka's wardrobe being accepted as a guardian and then embarking on a world spanning and world saving quest. I don't care what in-game reason is provided for this - it amounts to little more than an excuse for continuing with the JRPG cliche of teenage world-saving heroes that's no more believable than the motivations assigned to Vaan or Basch.

You concede that 8) is not a rule, but inexplicably claim that the writers left it up for you to make the blacks and whites "grays" when IMO the "grays" are obvious.
I don't see why 2) is a big deal at all in any story, though I think Drace was another example of wasted potential. But other than that I don't find anything disruptive or confusing about her or Miguelo. In Miguelo's case the fact that he has no role after the opening is understandable, and Drace was just underdeveloped. Like WK I don't remember Havharro at all despite just finishing my second playthrough.
WK also points out that 4) is a defining feature of JRPGs, and I don't see at all why FFXII handles it less well than any other JRPG. FFIX and Chrono Cross are textbook examples of games that handle plot-redrawing twists poorly, and indeed FFXII refeshingly lacks "ZOMG EVERTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG!1!!!11" type plot-twists.
3) I don't see how Vaan is the "action character" after the first third of the game.
5) A cartoonish villain is not a cliche as far as I can tell, but just a general weakness in itself. Nevertheless you have yet to give a convincing argument that Vayne is cartoonish, you just assert that he is. IMO he is far and away the least cartoonish FF villain yet, and only a few stupid lines delivered during the battle with his Novus form qualify as cheesy. Overall, he's much less embarrassing than anything else the series has produced thus far. Cid does adhere to the mad scientist cliche all too often, but still strikes me as relatively well done. Bergan is not dumb, he is simply authoritarian and is in any case not a sidekick.
7) Doom 3's plot has unnecessary bloodletting. By comparison, what is meaningless about the destruction of the resistance ships? Since when is "almost bloodletting" bloodletting? You write:



Last time I checked we had no Aeons here ;) The attack on Mt. Bur-Omisace's refugee camp was completely unnecessary to the plot, as were the "mommy, talk to me mommy" heartbreaking NPC dialogs there. It spoiled my enjoyment of that portion of the game, particularly because it is never addressed at the end. Ashe and Larsa never sent relief supplies or anything. Another plot string left untied, raised for the sheer heck of it then abandoned

X had a much darker, bloodier plot. Continuous genocide for 1,000 years ? A land of widows and orphans ? Yet we get to DO something against it and the entire sunny cheery landscape distracts you from the horrible reality the world of Spira faces. On XII the genocide seems like an after thought that no one, not even you, should care about.


The attack on Bur-Omisace's refugee camp was pretty minor really, and not out of character for Bergan. It certainly doesn't qualify as "genocide" (probably Sin's killings don't technically qualify as genocide either). Sin's killings also aren't continuous, and IMO their impact is diminished by the fact that they are thwarted over and over in an almost mechanical fashion. So what if he rises up every ten years to wreak some havoc? He's guaranteed to be destroyed again anyway. Not only that, but by simply defying a tradition the characters find out that killing this almighty monster is rather straightforward in reality. I felt that the whole Yu Yevon/Sin summoning was not very well explained either. It may be that I wasn't paying close enough attention, but why was the whole convulted set-up with the final summoning really necessary for Yu Yevon's continued existence? What does this stupid tick/squid/spider thing do all day anyway?

[Shattered Dreamer]

Never have I ever felt that the love story was the defining feature in the FF series. In fact the best ones are the suttle ones like VI/VII's love stories. Though XII did have the potential for several love stories, I for one, am grateful it was not readily present. The series needs to mix it up abit from time to time.

Yeah your right. I never saw the love story as a defining feature but still it was a shame to see all the potential for one existing in the FFXII go to waste.

[Wolf Kanno]

Once again, Neo-Mark beat me too it...

I agree that convential writing rules do not completely apply to video games. Nor do they really apply to comic books, movies, and TV shows since they are all very different forms of media so certain rules don't necessarily apply. Specifically points 2 and 3 don't apply to RPGs if you really look back on it's history.;)

Seriously, I had fights with my teacher in creative writing class cause I was outling a script for a comic but she badgered me constantly about how it doesn't follow conventional rules. Cause conventional rules dictate you cannot have a personal narrative and an objective narrative at the same time whereas a comic book allows the freedom to do so. In fact it happens more often than people think and yet it never causes any confusions (mostly due to the advent of the pictures...)


It's the perfect Wisconsin EVERYTHING. The script writers captured the angst and pain undercurrents in such a nice calm place and situation - an adorable husband /wife & kid family in Smallville USA - and showed it very convincingly, nothing feels fake about it. It is a ghastly, gruesome crime, the kind you would expect on NY or LA, not in Podunk, IA. And do you want a less likely "hero" than a fat 9 months pregnant sheriff ? Yet she and the movie comes out perfectly believable. Takes A LOT of writing and acting skills to pull that off!

Both of which the writers and actors lacked. It was a terrible movie Renmiri;) . "Search your feelings... you know it to be true!"





Writing rules violated on XII
1) We are never told why Vaan tags along with Ashe, why Basch fiercely protects Dalmasca, what resistance leaqder is Ashe that doesn't even know her uncle is on her side, etc..

The opening of the game is all about how Vaan is trying to "help Dalmasca" i... Did you want him to come out say specifically why so you can add it to your "telegraphing the plot" argument;) ?
Vaan actually says he has no reason twice: "I don't want to just be left behind here" in Bhujerba and later to Balthier's question of "what do you want" he answers "you know..."

I do admire your talent for filling in the blanks for the script writers though :love:


Both comments don't say anything along the lines of "I don't know". The first can be easily used within the context of my reasoning as yours:p The second comment seems really out of context so I cannot in good faith make a comment on it.




2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (Havharro, Miguelo, Drace...)

Drace (though I regret her role was rather small) ..
Precisely. All those extras had roles that were rather small (Havahro is the Bhujerba resistance leader that meets Vaan). Rikken, Elsa and Raz (the 3 Reddas groupies), Tomaj.... The "rules" say that if you introduce a character you should take time to put him on the story, otherwise you are just disrupting the flow of the narrative and confusing the reader.

On Fargo, they managed to pull it off, introducing a random Japanese friend of the sheriff woman, because they made it a tale about loneliness in big cities. I mean, hitting on an older pregnant woman ? How desperate is that ? It all fit the plot and theme about how big cities and small cities have similar woes deep down, even though it was a random character that was never heard off again. His appearance was the exact "size" to convey that message and exit stage left. Had he shown up again it would just disrupt the story.

On XII we are left wanting more of the characters. The inner struggle within the Empire deserved more than 1 minute cut scene, and so did Reddas friends, the resistance, etc...


I agree that I wanted more but I feel the scenes told you what you really needed to know. Honestly, my commnets on Migelo and Drace easily coincide with your Japanese guy on Fargo. They appeared as a commentary of the state of affairs in both their situations and both were used perfectly in their symbolism.

Havharroh and some of the others you recently mentioned are part of RPG writing conventions. Reddas' cronies are just really there for amusement, Tomaj on the other hand gets a few minor story bits as you move up throught the clan ranks and go through the various hunts.




3) A protagonist is not the leader yet is the main "action" character (Vaan)

I don't necessarily understand what you mean hear I'm afraid...
Do you want a less likely "hero" than Fargo's fat 9 months pregnant older woman ? Yet it works. when you watch the movie you truly believe she is the one investigating the crime and catching the perps

Vaan OTOH is a dream filled younger brother that could turn out to be a hero easily, yet never quite "works". No one leaves the game with the impression he is the leader of anything, that he was the driving force behind the quests, etc...

Again, the "rules" are to make sure your protagonist is believable as hero or villain, not to make a sidekick your protagonist. Takes a lot of skill to pull it off a believable sidekick protagonist.

IMHO the writers on X did that well. Tidus is a sidekick to Auron and Yuna yet you follow his exploits. You truly believe he is the main character. The narration trick helped a lot but the entire script was very well written in this aspect.


Vaan's far from a "main antagonsit and it's been stated several times he's not the main character so this is a mute point entirely. His role ends about a third of the way in the game, just like Lulu's ende five minutes after her introduction;)

Back on topic... honestly, I think it's obvious to see that Ashe is really the main character of the story. The plot is interwoven between her struggle to choose between smiting her enemies with the wrath of god or using it as a bargaining tool to restore her kingdom. The conflict between personal feelings and duty.

It's not often a main character gets introduced last to your party but then again we are talking about a genre of storytelling that features full fleshed characters that never utter a word in their own respective stories... (Crono and Ryu from Chrono Trigger and Breath of Fire respectively)




Several plot twists that "redraw" the story

This applies to every JRPG on the market, including FFX:p
True, but some do it better than others ;)


With this I agree with you though I know we are thinking of completely different things...;)




5) Clichee: Mean cartoonish villain (Vayne), Mad scientist (Dr. Cid), Dumb sidekick (Bergan), Evil twin (Gabi)....

Bergan is your atypical typical fanatical supporter. He believes strongly in Vayne"s methods and ideals and saw the former Emperor as "weak" this is all explained in the Judge meeting where Drace is murdered.
Well, again, the golden rules tell writers to use few or no clichees. And again, some good writers can use 100 clichees and make a masterpiece, while most of us can't manage that. I personally feel XII writers used way too many clichees and it made the story less readable / viewable because of it. The "not so-evil" twin was a good twist but when they added to the rest made it too much IMHO. Felt like eating stale leftovers from way too many stories ;)


On a pure specualtive note: Since Bergan is one of the older Judges, it stands to reason he came from a different era than some of the others. He most likely held this position in the days Vayne killed his brothers and the wars that took Noah and Basch's homeland. He's a hardliner like General McDouglas who lacks the judgement to know when to deal with a situation diplomatically.
I just love how you can fill in the blanks. You should rewrite XII's script someday :D


I feel you are judging this game too harshly as amny of the cliche's you've mentioned are nowhere near as bad as you make them out to be. Scanning the data that is presented to you it's easy to see how the characters are the way they are (and it's not due to them being cliches:rolleyes2 ) My note on Bergan is a prime example since I based it soley on what I've seen in the game.

Cid, though in the "mad scientist" category is definetly no where near as bat :skull::skull::skull::skull: crazy like Hojo was. Rather he's just obsesed with his research and finding the truth. But honestly, if you were in his position and a god came to you to tell you the secrets of the universe, don't you think you would probably place everything else in your life on the back burner? :D

Vayne only becomes cliche material at the end of the game which is disappointing but nonetheless his acts throughout the rest of the game is far from Saturday morning fare...




]7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (Resistance ships, almost Rabanastre)

Welcome to the real world... People fight for ideals, homelands, and to protect what's important to them. Our history is a testament to this. It's not "bad writing" when all one has to do is open a history book or even a newspaper and see that it's something that happens everyday
Last time I checked we had no Aeons here ;) The attack on Mt. Bur-Omisace's refugee camp was completely unnecessary to the plot, as were the "mommy, talk to me mommy" heartbreaking NPC dialogs there. It spoiled my enjoyment of that portion of the game, particularly because it is never addressed at the end. Ashe and Larsa never sent relief supplies or anything. Another plot string left untied, raised for the sheer heck of it then abandoned

X had a much darker, bloodier plot. Continuous genocide for 1,000 years ? A land of widows and orphans ? Yet we get to DO something against it and the entire sunny cheery landscape distracts you from the horrible reality the world of Spira faces. On XII the genocide seems like an after thought that no one, not even you, should care about.


You've obviously never finished the Fafnir hunt as it gives closure to that plot thread;) . Also it was relevant to the plot since the empire did not want the Grand Kiltias to publicly recognize Ashe as the heir to Dalmasca.

Besides, it was obvious from the amount of refugee's forming there that the Kiltias may have to be forced to act on the current state of world affairs and the Empire couldn't have that. Tactically, it was a pretty sound plan.

Also the state of affairs in X always pissed me off. I don't necessarily like authority and the vast majority of the land mass giving into the Yevon faith (I'm a firm believer in "God helps those who help themselves") made me eventually wish Sin would wipe them out. I hate mindless "sheep" more than anything and ultimately, I never felt Spira deserved to be saved. Of all the FF wolrds, X deserved what it got the most...




8) Ambiguous morals (Occuria are jerks, Dr. Cid is a bad guy but his plight is sympathetic)

Once again, welcome to the real world...;) Despite what most people think, the world is not "black or white" but just shades of gray...

Ambiguous morals are not really a story writing no-no, in fact most times it leads to stronger storytelling
You are correct. But writing a story with ambiguous morals is harder to get it to work. I feel the XII script writers fell short on it. They presented blacks and whites and left up to you to make it "gray". A better writer would have made a masterpiece with all the nuances of the plot arch. The Occuria being jerks and Cid/ Vayne's alleged quest to free humanity from them was a very creative idea and it was very poorly explored IMHO.

So was the sibling relationship of Vayne and Larsa. Or Gramis change of heart with old age... So many plot openings left untied / unexplored.

IMHO they cut the XII script development in half at SE. You can clearly see many ideas added for later fleshing out that were never finished.


Though we'll never truly know how the script was done for XII, I feel the grey area is obvious in the amount of realism the story is steeped in. The choices that Ashe had to make, Balthiers conflict between forgetting his past or finding closure. Baschs duty, and even the situation with the war between the resistance and the empire. The grey is there you have to look for it. When dealing with morality, a writer cannot simply state what is right and wrong and what is ultimately the grey area... since morality is purely subjective.

My commnets on X's world and it's "waltz of death" with Sin should clearly show that some people have a different views on what is right and what is wrong. In my moral conscience, helping Spira is pointless since the people lack the basic requirements to deserve peace and freedom.



Never have I ever felt that the love story was the defining feature in the FF series. In fact the best ones are the suttle ones like VI/VII's love stories. Though XII did have the potential for several love stories, I for one, am grateful it was not readily present. The series needs to mix it up abit from time to time.

Yeah your right. I never saw the love story as a defining feature but still it was a shame to see all the potential for one existing in the FFXII go to waste.

Well there's always "Revnant Wings". It looks like it may focus on Vaan and Penelo's relationship since the original game gave you the impression they were the only real couple in the game. Though deep down, I still feel that Lady Ashe has a thing for Balthier:love:

[Renmiri]

....conventional writing rules do not completely apply to video games. Nor do they really apply to comic books, movies, and TV shows..
I was using movie script writing rules, as evidenced by choice of examples: Fargo, Syd Field

Still, we've jousted enough about XII for you to know I'm not just condemning the story based on some "rules". I truly feel it is weak and damages the game quality overall.

It was a terrible movie Renmiri;) . "Search your feelings... you know it to be true!"
I like the techniques used, so maybe that is the reason I enjoyed the movie. But come on, Willian H Macy and Frances McDormand are BAD ACTORS ? By what standard ?!?!?

Both comments don't say anything along the lines of "I don't know". The first can be easily used within the context of my reasoning as yours:p The second comment seems really out of context so I cannot in good faith make a comment on it.
??? You lost me there ???

I agree that I wanted more but I feel the scenes told you what you really needed to know. Honestly, my commnets on Migelo and Drace easily coincide with your Japanese guy on Fargo. They appeared as a commentary of the state of affairs in both their situations and both were used perfectly in their symbolism
Fair enough, we disagree.

Vaan's far from a "main antagonsit and it's been stated several times he's not the main character...His role ends about a third of the way in the game, just like Lulu's ende five minutes after her introduction;)
Lulu isn't the one you guide through towns and the main character on your party. Vaan is. And his role ends in the first 1/3 of the game. That was a weird choice and disrupted the plot. Ergo, bad writing.

The fact that you and many fans discounted the faux pas and made Ashe, Larsa or whomever your protagonist doesn't make it good writing. It makes you and the other fans very forgiving and creative readers.


With this I agree with you though I know we are thinking of completely different things...;)
hihi I agreee :D

Vayne only becomes cliche material at the end of the game which is disappointing...
Wow, you agree with me about Vayne's cheesines in the end ?

You've obviously never finished the Fafnir hunt as it gives closure to that plot thread;)
I did. What happened there that closed the thread ? The Viera liking humans more ?



Also it was relevant to the plot since the empire ...
So when Larsa assumed the leadership of the empire the first thing he did was make it right, right ? NOPE. He kept on writing letters to Penelo like all those dead refugees were just cannon fodder. Or "diaposable plot dramatic effects". Bad writing!!!!


Also the state of affairs in X always pissed me off. I don't necessarily like authority and the vast majority of the land mass giving into the Yevon faith (I'm a firm believer in "God helps those who help themselves") made me eventually wish Sin would wipe them out. I hate mindless "sheep" more than anything and ultimately, I never felt Spira deserved to be saved. Of all the FF wolrds, X deserved what it got the most...
Oh, so your morals gave you a bias against X then ?

Pot, meet kettle ;)

My commnets on X's world and it's "waltz of death" with Sin should clearly show that some people have a different views on what is right and what is wrong. In my moral conscience, helping Spira is pointless since the people lack the basic requirements to deserve peace and freedom.
Here's were we differ, I think. I hated Fargo's characters but I admired the writing and acting skill it took to tell the story. I don't necessarily think any person deserves to die but I agree the people in Spira were on the low end of the deserving to be saved scale. Yet I liked the game.

And though I almost sided with Vayne & Cid, since the Occuria were pretty annoying, I was happy to see Larsa and Ashe get their respective thrones. My dislike of the story has nothing to do with my feelings for what is right or wrong, or for each character. It has more to do with the way the story was told.

[Wolf Kanno]

....conventional writing rules do not completely apply to video games. Nor do they really apply to comic books, movies, and TV shows..
I was using movie script writing rules, as evidenced by choice of examples: Fargo, Syd Field

Still, we've jousted enough about XII for you to know I'm not just condemning the story based on some "rules". I truly feel it is weak and damages the game quality overall.

No, I know that pretty well. Of anything this has just been a rather amusing discussion. It's interesting to point out the fact that VG have their own literary style to them.:)




It was a terrible movie Renmiri;) . "Search your feelings... you know it to be true!"
I like the techniques used, so maybe that is the reason I enjoyed the movie. But come on, Willian H Macy and Frances McDormand are BAD ACTORS ? By what standard ?!?!?


I don't feel they did a good job in the movie, though I'll be honest and tell you that I don't care for either as actors. Same with Sean Penn and Tom Hanks who are easily the two most overrated actors in Hollywood. But I'll end my off topic rant...




Both comments don't say anything along the lines of "I don't know". The first can be easily used within the context of my reasoning as yours:p The second comment seems really out of context so I cannot in good faith make a comment on it.
??? You lost me there ???


My point is that the line "I don't want to be left behind here" can be interpreted differently depending on how you see the story. It seems to me like you took it literally and thought of it as Vaan trying to justify why he's there. On the other hand... I see it as Vaan referencing his dislike of the empire since I took his past history in the game into account so it seems to me like he's symbolically saying "I want to make a difference"

Was that better?:D




I agree that I wanted more but I feel the scenes told you what you really needed to know. Honestly, my commnets on Migelo and Drace easily coincide with your Japanese guy on Fargo. They appeared as a commentary of the state of affairs in both their situations and both were used perfectly in their symbolism
Fair enough, we disagree.


We've known this for months dear;)




Vaan's far from a "main antagonsit and it's been stated several times he's not the main character...His role ends about a third of the way in the game, just like Lulu's ende five minutes after her introduction;)
Lulu isn't the one you guide through towns and the main character on your party. Vaan is. And his role ends in the first 1/3 of the game. That was a weird choice and disrupted the plot. Ergo, bad writing.

The fact that you and many fans discounted the faux pas and made Ashe, Larsa or whomever your protagonist doesn't make it good writing. It makes you and the other fans very forgiving and creative readers.


Just because he's the guy you control "in towns" does not automatically mean the character is the main character. Chances are, it was the programmers cutting corners since the game easily pushes the PS2 to it's technological limits. The fact is, if you could change your main character in towns, this would be a moot point and quickly devolve into the obnoxious FFVI debate of who the main character is:rolleyes2

I'll give a hint to those who don't know... THERE IS NO MAIN CHARACTER IN FFVI SO STOP BRINGING IT UP!!!

The fact is, from a story standpoint. Ashe is the most likely candidate for main character status; since the games plot completely revolves around her struggle to restore Dalmasca and get revenge on the empire. It's not odd for a game to have no main protagonist, not counting the NES era FFs, only four games in the series can honestly be said to have main characters (IV,VII,VIII,and X) whereas the others really don't have a defining main character from a plotline standpoint.





Vayne only becomes cliche material at the end of the game which is disappointing...
Wow, you agree with me about Vayne's cheesines in the end ?


I agree he ends on a bad note and it is one of the few story issues I do have with the game. I think if he had gone the way I thought he was going (doing this all for Larsa's sake) then he could have been one of the defining villains in the series.




You've obviously never finished the Fafnir hunt as it gives closure to that plot thread;)
I did. What happened there that closed the thread ? The Viera liking humans more ?


Remeber, she takes over the temple and begins helping the refugees who in turn inspires the people to finally move on with their lives and work towards restoring the temple and the order. Remember unlike previous RPGs, FFXII's NPCs actually have something relevant to say. ;) Besides, the music in the temple changes back to it's original theme signifying a transformation of the location.




Also it was relevant to the plot since the empire ...
So when Larsa assumed the leadership of the empire the first thing he did was make it right, right ? NOPE. He kept on writing letters to Penelo like all those dead refugees were just cannon fodder. Or "diaposable plot dramatic effects". Bad writing!!!!


We don't know that for certain, remember, a year passed after the ending so god only knows what the political spectrum may look like at this point. From what you get for finishing the Fafnir hunt, you get the impression the place was on the road to recovery so one can assume it's better. Remember that FFX doesn't reveal what happened to Kilikia until the terrible sequel:)




Also the state of affairs in X always pissed me off. I don't necessarily like authority and the vast majority of the land mass giving into the Yevon faith (I'm a firm believer in "God helps those who help themselves") made me eventually wish Sin would wipe them out. I hate mindless "sheep" more than anything and ultimately, I never felt Spira deserved to be saved. Of all the FF wolrds, X deserved what it got the most...
Oh, so your morals gave you a bias against X then ?

Pot, meet kettle ;)


Not really, well my second play thru actually... Of anything, it's one of many factors that make me dislike the game just like XII's parallels to historical and modern events bother you.;)



My commnets on X's world and it's "waltz of death" with Sin should clearly show that some people have a different views on what is right and what is wrong. In my moral conscience, helping Spira is pointless since the people lack the basic requirements to deserve peace and freedom.
Here's were we differ, I think. I hated Fargo's characters but I admired the writing and acting skill it took to tell the story. I don't necessarily think any person deserves to die but I agree the people in Spira were on the low end of the deserving to be saved scale. Yet I liked the game.

And though I almost sided with Vayne & Cid, since the Occuria were pretty annoying, I was happy to see Larsa and Ashe get their respective thrones. My dislike of the story has nothing to do with my feelings for what is right or wrong, or for each character. It has more to do with the way the story was told.

I never accused your morals being the reason you disliked the game, sorry for the confusion. My point was that you felt the story was that moral ambiguity is pretty subjective and no one can truly write a good story based in gray areas. People will always have different opinions. The closest I've seen in the RPG community is in Xenogears and Tactics.

I personally enjoyed the writing style of XII but it might be due to the fact it's not far from my own style. ;)

[Renmiri]

Vayne...ends on a bad note and it is one of the few story issues I do have with the game. I think if he had gone the way I thought he was going (doing this all for Larsa's sake) then he could have been one of the defining villains in the series.
Agreed 100%

You've obviously never finished the Fafnir hunt as it gives closure to that plot thread;)
I did. What happened there that closed the thread ? The Viera liking humans more ?

Remeber, she takes over the temple and begins helping the refugees who in turn inspires the people to finally move on with their lives and work towards restoring the temple and the order... Besides, the music in the temple changes back to it's original theme signifying a transformation of the location.
You have gotta be kidding me! All the inferences you make are way above what is there ;) The entire soundtrack sounds the same to me for starters. I did not notice the soundtrack change, I doubt most did.

when Larsa assumed the leadership of the empire the first thing he did was make it right, right ? NOPE.
We don't know that for certain, remember, a year passed after the ending so god only knows what the political spectrum may look like at this point.
Precisely. Like above and in countless examples, you are filling in the blanks with YOUR creativity and talent. The game writers shirked their duty :mad:

On X, all the players from both Blitz teams stop what they are doing to help rebuild the town. Also, Tidus narration says "As long as Sin exists Yuna will keep dancing" (i.e. people will keep dying) so you spend the entire game "Avenging Kilika" basically.

On XII the tragedy at Bur-Omisace is completely ignored. Everyone in the game (but that Viera) acts like "sucks to be them" and does not pitch in to help. The temple and the refugees are ignored by Ashe too, which is a damn shame considering Anastasis and many others there gave their lives to buy her time to get Raithwall's sword.


I personally enjoyed the writing style of XII but it might be due to the fact it's not far from my own style. ;)

Trust me on that, by the little I've seen here you write much better than those folks ;)

[JonyH]

You've obviously never finished the Fafnir hunt as it gives closure to that plot thread;)
I did. What happened there that closed the thread ? The Viera liking humans more ?

Remeber, she takes over the temple and begins helping the refugees who in turn inspires the people to finally move on with their lives and work towards restoring the temple and the order... Besides, the music in the temple changes back to it's original theme signifying a transformation of the location.
You have gotta be kidding me! All the inferences you make are way above what is there ;) The entire soundtrack sounds the same to me for starters. I did not notice the soundtrack change, I doubt most did.


I noticed, I don't know how you didn't. The music was very quiet and tense until completing the fafnir hunt. Upon completion, the music changes to the music you first hear on mt. bur-omisace, and it sounds triumphant or at least holy/worship style.

Agreeing with Wolf Kanno's point, everything wraps up nicely after fafnir. Just like the way you only understand the moogles after defeating Yiazmat, I love the fact that the side-quests pursue the storyline! :D

[Wolf Kanno]

Vayne...ends on a bad note and it is one of the few story issues I do have with the game. I think if he had gone the way I thought he was going (doing this all for Larsa's sake) then he could have been one of the defining villains in the series.
Agreed 100%


Glad to make you happy;)






You've obviously never finished the Fafnir hunt as it gives closure to that plot thread;)
I did. What happened there that closed the thread ? The Viera liking humans more ?

Remeber, she takes over the temple and begins helping the refugees who in turn inspires the people to finally move on with their lives and work towards restoring the temple and the order... Besides, the music in the temple changes back to it's original theme signifying a transformation of the location.
You have gotta be kidding me! All the inferences you make are way above what is there ;) The entire soundtrack sounds the same to me for starters. I did not notice the soundtrack change, I doubt most did.


Check again dear. I doubt you noticed the music change since you've already admited in another thread that you listen to the FFX soundtrack while playing instead of the original soundtrack so it doesn't surprise me you noticed. Also go back and actually talk to all the NPCs and you'll see I am right, I get the feeling you only spoke to the Viera and ignored everyone else;) .

I didn't make any interference as JonyH confirms it. You just weren't paying attention dear.:D




when Larsa assumed the leadership of the empire the first thing he did was make it right, right ? NOPE.
We don't know that for certain, remember, a year passed after the ending so god only knows what the political spectrum may look like at this point.
Precisely. Like above and in countless examples, you are filling in the blanks with YOUR creativity and talent. The game writers shirked their duty :mad:

On X, all the players from both Blitz teams stop what they are doing to help rebuild the town. Also, Tidus narration says "As long as Sin exists Yuna will keep dancing" (i.e. people will keep dying) so you spend the entire game "Avenging Kilika" basically.

On XII the tragedy at Bur-Omisace is completely ignored. Everyone in the game (but that Viera) acts like "sucks to be them" and does not pitch in to help. The temple and the refugees are ignored by Ashe too, which is a damn shame considering Anastasis and many others there gave their lives to buy her time to get Raithwall's sword.


First off, your proof of "caring" happens like 5 minutes after the town is destroyed, second, the game only mentions Kilikia one more time during the blitz tournament (shudders...) and like XII, the game ignores it and most of the citizens act like nothing happened there and continue whining about Sin needing to be destroyed by the summoners...

Now look at this situation logically. The world is walking on eggshells due to the threat of the rebels fighting the empire. Worst case scenario is the idea that Rozarrio may take advantage of the situation and get involved meaning the whole area will be plunged into a massive war.

A neutral territory is attacked by the Archadians. Nalbina and Dalmasca cannot help as they are now part of the Archadian empire and have been stripped of any form of authority and power. Archadia won't do anything cause they were the ones that attacked it. Rozzario can't do anything cause one quick glance of the map shows that the temple is located on the backdoor of the Archadian Empire and the Archadians can exploit the situation as a sign of aggression. Throw in the fact that Mt. Burimasce is more of a regional influence as oppsed to a world power like the Catholic church and you can see why the empires have little interest in it.

Throw in the fact that a lot of those people who are "ignoring" their plight mention that the area is dangerous and who knows when Archades will attack again since the public doesn't know the real reason for the attack.

And how does Lady Ashe ignore it? You act like she has some form of influence in the game. Remember half the games plot is her trying to prove she's actually the real Lady Ashe. If she does reveal herself publicly; the rebels, with Rozarrio's aid, will attack the Archadians placing everyone into the worst case scenario.

It all comes down to the game not specifically saying it was addressed while on the other hand, the game follows a certain type of logic that dictates otherwise as well as giving some evidence on the contrary (Fafnir Hunt). You say "the game doesn't say anything! Bad writing!" and I'm saying "The game gives enough logical evidence to say something happened, it's good writing!". I mean damn, this is starting to become like a debate with an atheist on the subject of the existence of a god:rolleyes2 ;)




I personally enjoyed the writing style of XII but it might be due to the fact it's not far from my own style. ;)

Trust me on that, by the little I've seen here you write much better than those folks ;)[/quote]


Thank you, though I'm certain you would change your mind if you read any of my work. ;)

[Renmiri]

I did read the villains thread and was favorably impressed. :D

But you are right, I don't think we will be able to convince each other that our faith is more holy our favorite games are well written.

How about we make a truce and go debate other people on other stuff ?

[Wolf Kanno]

I did read the villains thread and was favorably impressed. :D

But you are right, I don't think we will be able to convince each other that our faith is more holy our favorite games are well written.

How about we make a truce and go debate other people on other stuff ?

Agreed but what to debate?;)

[Renmiri]

Not X!!!

:p

[Wolf Kanno]

Not X!!!

:p

Now you know I don't start stuff in other people's forums. ;)

That leaves our options quite limited... :shifty:

[Renmiri]

Hihi! I'm sure we will find something to fight disagree over soon. FFXIII for instance :D

[Setzer Gabianni]

So did Renmiri get owned again? 8D

[Shattered Dreamer]

So did Renmiri get owned again? 8D

I thought slavery was abolished years ago? Seems I was wrong:p :D :p

[Renmiri]

pwned not owned ;)

And NEVER!!!! I'll deny it till I die. :p

[Wolf Kanno]

So did Renmiri get owned again? 8D

I'm saying it's a "draw" since most of this argument comes down to personal taste and preferences. That and we've argued these same points since November of last year. I'm surprised we still both have any fight left in us;)

[Renmiri]

Not really... We nailed it down to personal taste pretty much now.

But WK taught me a whole different way to see XII :)

[-N-]

So I just finished the game and read through the story debate and I had this great long post but of course it got deleted. So forgive me for being terse.

This game was the best experience of the entire Final Fantasy series, and I've been there for every single installment. I think the introduction of MMO elements threw some people for a loop that they didn't like. This includes the idea of fully experiencing the story through extensive gameplay exploration rather than following a series of chained events.

Yes, if you follow the main plot events in the story you end up with a fairly straightforward plot: rebel against the evil Empire. What you miss are so many of the elements that people seem to be complaining about. What you get when you explore the game in full is what makes a simple story rich in detail. Someone mentioned reading the pillars in Pharos and I think that is a prime example. Bestiary entries and mark-hunts also make the history of Ivalice more colorful and that is what brings this otherwise plain story to life.

Of course, that means you have to play the game. God forbid should you explore the multiverse SE has spent ages to create with one of the most engaging battle engines ever. God forbid should SE remind you they make videogames, not movies with a fancy controller like Xenosaga. Gameplay in XII is deliciously intertwined with the story, and how much story you see is directly related with how much effort you put in the game.

I think this ends up being a clear slap in the face to anybody who thinks they can talk about story and gameplay in a video game separately (MONOLITHSOFT). Perhaps we can thank Sakaguchi for this: Thank you for leaving the series and making room for a more integrated gaming experience. Thank you for leaving the series and not putting so much emphasis on the game being a linear experience of your storyline ideas. And of course, thank you for the amazing games you have delivered in the past. I'm not that irreverent.

XII is, at heart, an amazingly successful effort to "catch up" (I put it in quotes because I'm not sure who's really catching up to whom at times) to other storytelling media without turning its fans into MMO zombies. The popular TV show "Heroes" did not present its story in full in its episodes; other critical story aspects like character background and motivation (sound familiar?) were released in the form of interactive websites and comic books for viewers to actively explore the Heroes world. The creators of "The Matrix" pioneered this somewhat by creating a set of movies, a videogame, a series of short animations, and releasing philosophical essays on their website. Some consider it gimmicky; I consider it a more thorough presentation of a world that is too rich to be presented in just one medium. Final Fantasy XII embodied and internalized these ideas.

So while I haven't really endorsed a particular position, I am offering an explanation as to why people feel left with an incomplete experience after completing the game, or why they might feel the story was inadequately presented, or why they are complete turds. Pick the one that applies to you, if you apply to this. If not, well congratulations! I am not repulsed by you.

[Wolf Kanno]

OMG:eek:

Someone actually gets it. Though I don't completely agree with all your post but overall you hit my sentiments of the game pretty accurately.;)

[Silent Warrior]

My two wooden nickels:

If you look away from the story for a bit, you'll probably see that XII seems (to me, anyway) to take a decisive step away from previous FFs: Shiva, Ifrit and all those other summons-gang are revived as airships, later destroyed. New names for the Espers, all vicious-sounding. Battle-system much revised, quite a lot like ye olde Infinity-powered D&D-CRPGs some of us know and love. (Although with this battle-system and the graphics, FF12 felt more like what Summoner 2 should have been...)
Continuing along those lines, the story seems a fair deal more mature - and the dialogues are written in such a beautiful english! That alone can cause a replay! :D By mature, I simply mean that all that in-your-face drama FF usually brings with it is pretty much absent. No moral pointers, it lets things be as complicated as they indeed are. I love that aspect of the story no end, but that's me.
I agree that the Occuria/Venat gets quite little exposure, but I was unable to play the game "cover-to-cover" - for largely irrelevant reasons I was sometimes away from it for weeks on end. Maybe it'll clear up in another play-through.

As for Vayne being a villain or not, he always was the antagonist, anyway. To yet again spawn some D&D here, :p I'd say he was True Neutral rather than strictly speaking evil. (As I understand it, True Neutral means that the person in question will follow laws when it suits him/her, violate them otherwise [patricide? fratricide?], doesn't care much for good or evil if there's nothing to gain from it.) I could stretch myself to Neutral Evil if needed... but we all know the really vicious demons are fighting it out in the Blood War, determining whether Chaotic Evil or Lawful Evil is the worst. :D

... Maybe I should just shut up now. I bin playin Baldur's Gate 2. Yea.

[WritinginaRedState]

I'm in the minority as well. Sigh.

Loved X, XII is *alright*.

Now, one thing I noticed was people's defense of XII in that it portrays things in a realistic light. First and foremost, this is a story driven videogame. Thusly, I expect all important story related elements to be present in the main narrative. I feel that, since this is a story, that argument shouldn't hold water because we need to at least be presented with all the information and then make our own conclusions(like who Cloud really liked Tifa or Aeris). I was especially irritated at the explanation of Vayne's and Doctor Cid's motives and what made them so bad. Why did Venat decide to help them? At least in other instances if you dug deep enough you could find something. A good, solid story should present you with a scenario, offer you all the facts and let you decide on your own what was right and wrong. This story presented you with a scenario, presented you SOME of the facts, and left you to fill in the blanks yourself.

Sorry if that sounded a little convoluted....lol
I just get irritated when people say "It's deeper than all the other plots you're just stupids lolzz."
Not that anyone here has said that. :)

[Renmiri]

one thing I noticed was people's defense of XII in that it portrays things in a realistic light....

I just get irritated when people say "It's deeper than all the other plots you're just stupids lolzz."
Not that anyone here has said that. :)
Yeah, that annoys me. Like there is anything real about Moogles, Espers and Chocobos.

And copying a line out of Hamlet does not a literary masterpiece make.

Hearing jerks saying their favorite video game is "too mature" or "too deep" for my taste is kinda hearing kids playing with LEGO telling me that their engineering skills are superior :p

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm in the minority as well. Sigh.

Loved X, XII is *alright*.

Now, one thing I noticed was people's defense of XII in that it portrays things in a realistic light. First and foremost, this is a story driven videogame. Thusly, I expect all important story related elements to be present in the main narrative. I feel that, since this is a story, that argument shouldn't hold water because we need to at least be presented with all the information and then make our own conclusions(like who Cloud really liked Tifa or Aeris). I was especially irritated at the explanation of Vayne's and Doctor Cid's motives and what made them so bad. Why did Venat decide to help them? At least in other instances if you dug deep enough you could find something. A good, solid story should present you with a scenario, offer you all the facts and let you decide on your own what was right and wrong. This story presented you with a scenario, presented you SOME of the facts, and left you to fill in the blanks yourself.

Sorry if that sounded a little convoluted....lol
I just get irritated when people say "It's deeper than all the other plots you're just stupids lolzz."
Not that anyone here has said that. :)

I felt it was rather obvious (but it may have just been me). Venat wanted the other Occurians to act so he chose Cid (the know how to make nethicite) and Vayne (the political figure who would have no issue causing global chaos and actually use the nethicite) I think Venat was counting on your party to wipe out the Sun-Cryst and the Occurians hold on society.

As for Venat's motive... this is pure specualtion but I think it was never made clear cause it would reveal what the Occurians really are. The game never really says what they are. Are they aliens? beings from another dimension? gods? Some stories need mystery and not everything needs to be explained so I feel that if Venat was given a motive it would clue the player into the identity of the main chess players in the game. Come on, the Occurians are much more interesting when we really don't know what they are.;)

As for the stories "maturity" I think it does come from the sense of realism to the series (on a political and historical level mostly). Most FF's steer clear from politics and though many of the games in the series have historical backgrounds, it's not nearly as in-depth as XII's. I don't necessarily believe this makes XII superior to past games, but rather shows a level of story evolution that the series needs. Wouldn't you love to play your favorite FF with a fleshed out history that has more story significance as opposed to "remember that this happened here cause you'll need it to acquire a special weapon" as opposed to.. "remember this as this will give you a complete idea of the mindset of the people here as well as show insight into how this culture reacts to these people from other there..." It's kinda've neat don't you think?:)



one thing I noticed was people's defense of XII in that it portrays things in a realistic light....

I just get irritated when people say "It's deeper than all the other plots you're just stupids lolzz."
Not that anyone here has said that. :)
Yeah, that annoys me. Like there is anything real about Moogles, Espers and Chocobos.

And copying a line out of Hamlet does not a literary masterpiece make.

Hearing jerks saying their favorite video game is "too mature" or "too deep" for my taste is kinda hearing kids playing with LEGO telling me that their engineering skills are superior :p

I understand this... try being an FF fan in a Xenogear/Saga forum... you'll meet the most pretentious fans you can imagine:rolleyes2

[WritinginaRedState]

Both series have their good and bad points.

Don't get me wrong. I do like Final Fantasy XII, but for the first time in the series history I played for the gameplay, not the story. There are some videos on youtube that go through all the cutscenes. I've tried watching all those to see if I missed anything.

I think this game might be better if you go straight through it without any breaks. I had to take a week off for finals and when I came back to it I couldn't remember hardly anything relevant to the plot.

I hope they go back to character-driven plots in XIII.

[Wolf Kanno]

Both series have their good and bad points.

Don't get me wrong. I do like Final Fantasy XII, but for the first time in the series history I played for the gameplay, not the story. There are some videos on youtube that go through all the cutscenes. I've tried watching all those to see if I missed anything.

I think this game might be better if you go straight through it without any breaks. I had to take a week off for finals and when I came back to it I couldn't remember hardly anything relevant to the plot.

I hope they go back to character-driven plots in XIII.

I do believe that XII's weakness was how the story is separated by hours of dungeons and traveling so if you weren't playing it consistenly, you lose out on the story side of it.

I prefer story driven myself but I like character driven as long as there is no central main character. Usually the side characters are more interesting but they usually get overshadowed by the main character. If you don't like the main character(s) then the story quickly becomes unbearable (which is my primary issue with FFX). So as long as it's decentralized I have a better chance of enjoying it:D

[Hazzard]

Basically, the game is great and I love it. FFX is also the same, and I don't even know how someone can claim that if you love one of them two, you will definitely not see eye-to-eye with the other.

[Vivisteiner]

That whole speech at the beginning from Vayne was just to garner support. Essentially, he just wants power for himself and Archadia - but he doesnt necessarily want people to suffer. However, he doesnt mind making them suffer if it will help him to acheive his goal. His motivations led to him opposing the Occuria and attempting to become a Dynast King.

He also has a soft side for his brother Larsa. But he kills his other brothers, although I cant remember exactly why. It was under the orders of Emperror Gramis I think.



About the Judges. I loved how they all had different personalities.

Gabranth: Hated his brother. Wants to protect the innocent Larsa. Loyal to the emperror (before his death).

Bergan: Loves battle and war. Loyal to Vayne and his aggressive tactics. Uses the power of manufactured Nethicite inorder to get 'The reigns of history back in the hands of man.'

Drace: Protective of Larsa. Fears Vayne. Wants peace.

Ghis: Wants power for himself. Attempts to use the nethicite for his own gain, but dies.

Zargabaath: More mysterious. Wants to protect Larsa and friends with Drace. But does not interfere with Vayne and Bergan due to fear. Follows orders.




After examination, this story is actually good. Its just not fleshed out enough in game. There is a reason why everything happened, the weakest being Noahs disproportionate hate for Basch.

Character developement + political intrigue = awesome storyline.

Unfortunately, the first was somewhat lacking.

[Renmiri]

Basically, the game is great and I love it. FFX is also the same, and I don't even know how someone can claim that if you love one of them two, you will definitely not see eye-to-eye with the other.

Guilty as charged :(

I just think their styles are very different, X is completely removed from our world (semi-rural Spira) and character centric, with oodles of love story, XII is just the opposite: no love story, little focus on individual characters, a very recognizable plot (rescue a kingdom from tyranny).

You are allowed to like both styles and ignore my lame guess though :love:


After examination, this story is actually good. Its just not fleshed out enough in game.
I agree to that. It is not my favorite theme, as I'm quite weary of politics and Empire aspirations in general, thanks to our Empire building US President, but that is another story :mad:.

And I do feel it wasn't fleshed out enough in the game, in spite of Wolf Kanno's and other fans doing an excellent job of fleshing it out for me afterwards ;)

I recently learned that the game scenario writer had to leave the development team before the completion due to a serious illness. All I can say is that it is a pity because it shows. I can definitely see lots of threads left too open in XII.

[Vivisteiner]

^Yep. I fear Yasumi Matsuno attempted to achieve too much. The people at SE wanted a more generic RPG, whereas he wanted to revolutionise it with Basch and Balthier as the main characters. In the end, he was forced to settle for a compromise. He then left mid-way through developement, with the remaining team slightly confused over how it was meant to be.

Also, the whole sky pirate thing was supposed to be more developed. Elza and Rikken - and more minor characters were supposed to have a larger roles. Notice their intricate designs, yet they only had a few lines.

Personally, I loved FFX's story. Not as good as FFIX's though - because that has the best characters ever imaginably....*goes into FFIX fanboy mode*. However, FFXII story was still good. I disagree about it being cliched. FFX was more cliched and simple. But in a way, thats what made it effective. It wasnt over ambitious and developed so thoroughly upon practically every aspect.

[Wolf Kanno]

Basically, the game is great and I love it. FFX is also the same, and I don't even know how someone can claim that if you love one of them two, you will definitely not see eye-to-eye with the other.

They are both written differently, one's character driven (FFX) while the other is story driven (XII) but the main eye to eye issue is that we are seeing the same thing that happened back when FFVIII came out. VII brought forth a new fanbase and most found VIII to be a major disappointment. FFX has also brought forth a new fanbase and XII is a very foreign concept to them. It's why you notice more X fans hating the game than any other. At least that's my opinion...



Basically, the game is great and I love it. FFX is also the same, and I don't even know how someone can claim that if you love one of them two, you will definitely not see eye-to-eye with the other.

Guilty as charged :(

I just think their styles are very different, X is completely removed from our world (semi-rural Spira) and character centric, with oodles of love story, XII is just the opposite: no love story, little focus on individual characters, a very recognizable plot (rescue a kingdom from tyranny).

You are allowed to like both styles and ignore my lame guess though :love:


After examination, this story is actually good. Its just not fleshed out enough in game.
I agree to that. It is not my favorite theme, as I'm quite weary of politics and Empire aspirations in general, thanks to our Empire building US President, but that is another story :mad:.

And I do feel it wasn't fleshed out enough in the game, in spite of Wolf Kanno's and other fans doing an excellent job of fleshing it out for me afterwards ;)

I recently learned that the game scenario writer had to leave the development team before the completion due to a serious illness. All I can say is that it is a pity because it shows. I can definitely see lots of threads left too open in XII.

Spira is not that foreign if you know a bit about Japanese culture. Spira is based off the island of Okinawa, as well as the story being based on Japanese folk tales, especially the story of the Orochi dragon.;)


^Yep. I fear Yasumi Matsuno attempted to achieve too much. The people at SE wanted a more generic RPG, whereas he wanted to revolutionise it with Basch and Balthier as the main characters. In the end, he was forced to settle for a compromise. He then left mid-way through developement, with the remaining team slightly confused over how it was meant to be.

Also, the whole sky pirate thing was supposed to be more developed. Elza and Rikken - and more minor characters were supposed to have a larger roles. Notice their intricate designs, yet they only had a few lines.

Personally, I loved FFX's story. Not as good as FFIX's though - because that has the best characters ever imaginably....*goes into FFIX fanboy mode*. However, FFXII story was still good. I disagree about it being cliched. FFX was more cliched and simple. But in a way, thats what made it effective. It wasnt over ambitious and developed so thoroughly upon practically every aspect.

I love FFIX as well:)

It's a shame about Matsuno leaving half way through... He has written my favorite FF script (FFTactics) and has proven time and again that he's one of the best writers currently at Squenix. Though I wonder if he still works there seeing as he sorta've "disappeared" after he left developement of XII. Just like Sakeguchi "disappeared" after Spirits Within.:(

[Vivisteiner]

^Yep, its a great shame.

It seems like they only have Nomura left as their one big name. Sakaguchi left to do Blue Dragon didnt he? And I dont think Matsuno will come back properly. :(

I heard that Vagrant Story's story was a masterpiece. Have you played it?

[Wolf Kanno]

Yes I have:cool:

It's an incredible game with a very deep and wonderful plot. Honestly, Matsuno writes some of the most interesting characters. Sydney Lossarette is really how Vayne should have been.

[Bashini]

Vayne is an anti-hero, and we do not know his full story arc, because this is the middle installment of the story. Murder does not necessarily make one evil, nor does building an empire.

Without a strong governing power civilization cannot exist. Archades is facing civil war. It is necessary for Vayne to assume the throne quickly and dissolve the Senate before this occurs. He chooses not to kill Larsa, even though it would seem the quickest way to secure the throne.

Vayne's ambition seems to be bring the dawn of a new era free of theocratic rule. It is also blazingly clear that his real goal is to create tools to bring down these heavy handed 'gods.' He gambled that his brother Larsa would remain partial to Vayne's leadership.

The immediate response is that Lady Ashe assuming the throne and the open dialog between the three countries is good. I doubt this will last. She is a single woman who has all the political savvy of a donkey. XII-2: Gee all of Ivalice is at the brink of war and look at that big shiny nethicite ...

[Hazzard]

If I was to think on a real note, I would definitely state that Vaan and Penelo wouldn't be active in this story and it's blatantly unrealistic and slightly annoying to realize that you got two seventeen year old sky pirate wannabes in your party.

I would of accepted the game more, if things came more silky into concept, for example: Reddas and one of the sky pirates join the party at an earlier stage in the story. I feel that would of made more sense.

[Renmiri]

Vayne is an anti-hero, and we do not know his full story arc, because this is the middle installment of the story.

Aha! I knew I could smell the "You will have to buy the sequel" on XII.

I just hate those movies / games made to sell a trilogy. Very few nowadays bother to do it right, i.e. make each individual installment stand on it's own. :mad:

[Bashini]

Aha! I knew I could smell the "You will have to buy the sequel" on XII.

I just hate those movies / games made to sell a trilogy. Very few nowadays bother to do it right, i.e. make each individual installment stand on it's own. :mad:

If the game could stand on its own they would not bother producing a trilogy or a series.

My problem with the release of XII is that they are telling the story inside out (middle-end-beginning). Although I found it fairly easy to follow I do not think the majority of gamers agree and would have stomached it better if it were told in order.

[Bolivar]

So while I haven't really endorsed a particular position, I am offering an explanation as to why people feel left with an incomplete experience after completing the game, or why they might feel the story was inadequately presented, or why they are complete turds. Pick the one that applies to you, if you apply to this. If not, well congratulations! I am not repulsed by you.

While I agree in spirit, i have to think your argument is actually very backwards. It was becasue of the amount of effort I put into the game that really ruined the story for me. Spending time exploring, talking to townspeople, uncovering the backstory of the game, completing mark hunts, killing rare game, all of that took so much dedication that it made the story seem alot smaller and alot simpler than it really is.

Every hour that I put into this game, I could see my interest in the story diminish more and more. And I played 104 hours, so you figure it out.

I've also seen comments that the fleshed out backstory in XII is actually a progression from previous games. To me, XII's storytelling is actually a huge step BACK from the progress made in VII-X. Like movies and short stories, the plot and backstory has been developed by the action and the dialogue between characters.

Imagine a movie where the action suddenly stops and a man in a suit comes out to explain what's going on. It would expose the inadequacy of a director, and this is exactly what happens in XII with Omdore's diary readings. Not to mention that traditionally, Final Fantasy has been Apocalyptic/Post-Apocalyptic fiction. Not only is the story of this game confined to one region in the world, it's restricted to one region within Ivalice.

And Renmiri, good to know i wasn't the only one who saw the possibilities for a sequel (beyond RW).

I really think since Basch is now the Head Judge In Charge over in Archades, that when Vaan matures past his whole sky pirate adolescent phase, he's going to become Ashe's knight/judge, and the two sides are going to clash.

All for the buildup to a scene on a bridge/balcony where Basch, in his helmeted glory, spills the beans "VAAN, I AM YOUR FATHER", since this game already ripped off star wars enough as it is :cool:

[Renmiri]

If the game could stand on its own they would not bother producing a trilogy or a series.

Then charge 1/3 of the price! :mad:


Renmiri, good to know i wasn't the only one who saw the possibilities for a sequel (beyond RW).

... the two sides are going to clash...

All for the buildup to a scene on a bridge/balcony where Basch, in his helmeted glory, spills the beans "VAAN, I AM YOUR FATHER"... :cool:

:p That would be as cheesy as some scenes in XII :p

I have nothing against a game having a sequel, provided they don't split a story in half and sell it as a full product.

Seriously, this is cheating IMHO. Make a damn good game and you will have your sequels. Star Wars was a middle of the story movie and was great. Pirates of The Caribbean got 3 movies but the first was excellent.

Now on XII you get to the end and you get hit with scenes that basically spell out: "You've been punked!!! To know / see the end you will have to buy the sequel" :mad2:

[Bashini]

Or they could do a ten year project and charge triple the price:rolleyes2

Films make poor examples since they have anywhere from 2-3.5hrs to tell a contiguous story without having to worry about human interfaces. Also Star Wars has a fairly familiar and simplistic plot, so George Lucas got away with telling the story in an unconventional way to the masses.

Another reason to tell this story in the inside out fashion it has been presented in, is to shift the focus of the audience away from the true happenings of the plot. This style of writing is not uncommon in classic literature.

[Wolf Kanno]

Aha! I knew I could smell the "You will have to buy the sequel" on XII.

I just hate those movies / games made to sell a trilogy. Very few nowadays bother to do it right, i.e. make each individual installment stand on it's own. :mad:

If the game could stand on its own they would not bother producing a trilogy or a series.

My problem with the release of XII is that they are telling the story inside out (middle-end-beginning). Although I found it fairly easy to follow I do not think the majority of gamers agree and would have stomached it better if it were told in order.

Well this is news to me... I know about Revnant Wings and I know that Tactics takes place a thousand years later but I hardly see how this makes it a trilogy. RW looks to be a stand alone game with only the main party and Larsa making a return. And Tactics has little to do with XII with only the Lucavi really connecting them together (Well until FFT:The Lion War gets released:rolleyes2 ). So is there another game I'm unaware of?:confused:




So while I haven't really endorsed a particular position, I am offering an explanation as to why people feel left with an incomplete experience after completing the game, or why they might feel the story was inadequately presented, or why they are complete turds. Pick the one that applies to you, if you apply to this. If not, well congratulations! I am not repulsed by you.

While I agree in spirit, i have to think your argument is actually very backwards. It was becasue of the amount of effort I put into the game that really ruined the story for me. Spending time exploring, talking to townspeople, uncovering the backstory of the game, completing mark hunts, killing rare game, all of that took so much dedication that it made the story seem alot smaller and alot simpler than it really is.

Every hour that I put into this game, I could see my interest in the story diminish more and more. And I played 104 hours, so you figure it out.

I've also seen comments that the fleshed out backstory in XII is actually a progression from previous games. To me, XII's storytelling is actually a huge step BACK from the progress made in VII-X. Like movies and short stories, the plot and backstory has been developed by the action and the dialogue between characters.

Imagine a movie where the action suddenly stops and a man in a suit comes out to explain what's going on. It would expose the inadequacy of a director, and this is exactly what happens in XII with Omdore's diary readings. Not to mention that traditionally, Final Fantasy has been Apocalyptic/Post-Apocalyptic fiction. Not only is the story of this game confined to one region in the world, it's restricted to one region within Ivalice.

I'm in agreement with Bashini on the idea of thinking of RPG's (or even just FF plots) on being like movies. Movies are nothing more than storytelling for people with ADD and they still complain they are too long:mad: FF is more like a novel or a consistant story in a TV series. It unfolds slowly and the satisfaction comes from watching it carefully and consistently to capture all the subtle nuances of the characters and story:cool:.

Movies (especially most of the trite that comes out of Hollywood these days) are 90 minutes of special effects and bad acting trying to convince you that they are relevant. (And I agree that the first Pirates was the best Renmiri ;) while the other two were... wasted potential)

I disagree that the storytelling in the last few FF's have been all that good. Some are down right terrible (I don't have to mention which one I feel is the worse, do I Renmiri?;) ) They have slowly began to suffer from the same faults that the movie industry suffers from. Pretentious and utterly meaningless dialogue, ridiculous plots, and horrible displays of human interaction that makes daytime soap opera look like Oscar material. The only thing they have going for them is visuals and I don't know about most people here, but I kinda feel that's a rip off.

Ashe was the last character I actually was interested in from a story and character stand point. Vivi was the last character I probably cared for and the last storyline that I didn't stop in the middle of and say in disgust "Good lord this is fucking ridiculous!!" was probably Tactics. I think RPG's should take advantage of the interactivity of it's medium and take storytelling into a different direction. Some games are already starting to do this, SE needs to take the hint...

Also, I think the idea of focusing on a small area was a good move. The game didn't devolve merely into a "save the world" nonsense that plagues this genre. It was about protecting what is most important to the characters. The impact is greater cause you realize that this isn't affecting the world, it's only about you and the characters. The world doesn't care what happens to Dalmasca... just like the real world doesn't care about the little countries that get squashed every day today. It's that sense of realism that makes the parties plight that more realistic (well as realistic as an FF gets:rolleyes2 )

But this is all just my :twocents: