Penelo - Transient Extraordinaire

[Captain Maxx Power]

Seriously, can someone tell me what the hell she was around for exactly? She just seemed to kind of get roped in with Vaan (who also feels like a third-leg at the best of times, and as an unwanted interloper at the worst), and then proceeds to be completely inconsequential to anything but battles if you decide to use her. Really, where's the motivation besides just tagging along? She always feel like either a severely underdeveloped character or a sixth party placeholder to even out the battles without any thought given to exactly why she's there.

[The black mage]

what she has more MP that most of the party, and therefore becomes my main healer.

[Renmiri]

She is there to make you buy the sequel

[Necronopticous]

Adult doujinshi.

[Disco Potato]

Plot-wise I think it was her capturing that eventually led the party at that point to first learn about nethicite (but I haven't played the game in a while so that might be wrong), but after Bhujerba I really don't know.

[rubah]

She's there to be the clever astute one to counter vaan's insipid dullness.

Seriously, she makes the connections between a lot of things.

I know i love her, and would use her in my party all the time if I wasn't trying to level everyone up equally xD

[Cap'n Basch]

She didn't want to be seperated from Vaan like she was when he taken off to Nalbina, since he's one of few people important to her that she has left, and due to his nature she can't trust him not to get pulled off to a dungeon again. She's trying to watch out for him. And her general purpose over the course of the story is to interact with Larsa and help show the human side of the Empire. Vaan is in the party for potentially any number of reasons. He wants to find out what kind of man Basch truly is and why Reks admired him; he wants to see Dalmasca restored and the best way to do that is to aid the resistance; he wants to be a sky pirate and one of the best ways to learn would be to learn from a master (Balthier).

I guess people would be happier if there was some empty and ultimately meaningless motivation for them all to be there. "A Princess needs her bodyguards" in the manner of "A Summoner needs her Guardians" or something. But it's not because the characters are somehow bereft of motive that people have this problem - it's that they expect the spoonfed "we're all here for X", whereas the game places a greater onus on the player to pay attention to the characters and work this stuff out themselves.

[Savannah]

I don't really understand why people keep asking this question. Clearly, she has been with Vaan since they were children-- they're pratically brother and sister. She went along because she wanted to keep Vaan safe.


I guess people would be happier if there was some empty and ultimately meaningless motivation for them all to be there. "A Princess needs her bodyguards" in the manner of "A Summoner needs her Guardians" or something. But it's not because the characters are somehow bereft of motive that people have this problem - it's that they expect the spoonfed "we're all here for X", whereas the game places a greater onus on the player to pay attention to the characters and work this stuff out themselves.

Exactly. What I like about this game is that all the characters have different reasons for being on the quest-- Basch wants to protect Ashe, Ashe wants to restore her homeland, Vaan wants to avenge his brother, Penelo wants to make sure Vaan doesn't get himself killed, and Fran and Balthier want to stop Cid and scoop up some loot along the way.

[Renmiri]

Vaan forgets his brother right after Jahara. Penelo forgets herself after Bhujerba.

Face it. XII is oodles of fun to play, but it is not much in the way of story telling. The fact you have to make it up as you go is not a virtue, it's plainly bad script writing.

[Shattered Dreamer]

Face it. XII is oodles of fun to play, but it is not much in the way of story telling. The fact you have to make it up as you go is not a virtue, it's plainly bad script writing.


Anyone who has seen the ending has to agree with that

[Ashley Schovitz]

The ending was really the only good part.

It doesn't make sense that the party practically ran around the whole world with each other, but they hardly spoke to each other, in every toher FF practically every town or dungeon you stop in the party communicates with each other and not just for a second.

[Renmiri]

Yeah and Ashe just dumps the people who saved her life and her kingdom. that was so lame!!!

[Shattered Dreamer]

That really annoyed me it also doesn't make alot sense since the people she saved the world with are all she has left in the end.

[Renmiri]

That really annoyed me it also doesn't make alot sense since the people she saved the world with are all she has left in the end.
QFT

Yes, after all that talk about friendship from Vaan and all her angst ridden face at Balthier's fate she tuns out to be a cold blooded bitch ? :mad:

[Shattered Dreamer]

What good is peace if you have no one to enjoy it with serves her right

[Cap'n Basch]

Vaan forgets his brother right after Jahara. Penelo forgets herself after Bhujerba.

Face it. XII is oodles of fun to play, but it is not much in the way of story telling. The fact you have to make it up as you go is not a virtue, it's plainly bad script writing.

Leaving the audience to make inferrences on their own is not, in and of itself, bad story-telling. There isn't a need for lots of exposition and having a lot is actually detrimental. If you weren't going in like a child with ADD, almost all of the things I mentioned were very easy to deduce.

Vaan hasn't forgotten his brother by Jahara and Penelo certainly hasn't "forgotten herself". An absence of direct referrences to Reks should not be read like that. Reks was important for helping establish Vaan's character and his relationship with Basch; he was not there for Vaan to endlessly angst over as though he were Squall. Vaan is not solely defined by Reks. And not only is it impertinent to the development of the actual story to bring him up, but from the fact Vaan is no longer ostensibly angry about Reks' death, we can infer he was made peace with it and it reflects a grown trust in Basch.

As for Penelo, I guess if you just sleep through every time Larsa joins the party, any subsequent interactions between those two characters, and the things she says in later areas (specifically Archades, because how she and Vaan feel about the Empire is important to their characters) I suppose you could make the case she was forgotten.


With respect to Ashe in the ending...did you consider her role as Queen would affect her ability to see her friends, and that the way Penelo talks about her missing Basch suggests contact can't have been that badly broken? You can't notice that stuff from afar nor in a passing conversation.

[Shattered Dreamer]

With respect to Ashe in the ending...did you consider her role as Queen would affect her ability to see her friends, and that the way Penelo talks about her missing Basch suggests contact can't have been that badly broken? You can't notice that stuff from afar nor in a passing conversation.

I gathered that but I kinda expected the corny giving all you friends important positions in your kingdom ending in order to keep them around but hey can't have everything your own way

[Setzer Gabianni]

Face it. XII is oodles of fun to play, but it is not much in the way of story telling. The fact you have to make it up as you go is not a virtue, it's plainly bad script writing.


Anyone who has seen the ending has to agree with that

How about no? People don't always think like you.

Cap'n Basch pretty much owns a lot of people in here. <3

[Savannah]

Vaan forgets his brother right after Jahara. Penelo forgets herself after Bhujerba.

Er, no they don't. I'm not really sure where you came up with this, but as Cap'n Basch explained more thoroughly, it's complete rubbish. Did you miss the battle with Cid in the Pharos? Just because he isn't babbling about Reks during the whole game doesn't mean he's "forgotten" him.

[Renmiri]

Cap'n Basch pretty much owns a lot of people in here. <3

Blaming gamers for XII's poor story telling is not owning :p

I respect Wolf Kano's and your points, Cap'n Basch in spite of his gorgeous name (Bash!!!! :tongue: ) is just a weak debater that resorts to AD HOMINEN attacks when he sees his pet game offended. He knows nothing of story telling theory yet he tries to put me down pretending he knows. Won't fly, I have several classes on it under my belt. :) He would do better to discuss XII story telling on it's merits, not on my and any other people's "flaws" because we don't love it.

[Savannah]

Cap'n Basch pretty much owns a lot of people in here. <3

Blaming gamers for XII's poor story telling is not owning :p

I respect Wolf Kano's and your points, Cap'n Basch in spite of his gorgeous name (Bash!!!! :tongue: ) is just a weak debater that resorts to AD HOMINEN attacks when he sees his pet game offended. He knows nothing of story telling theory yet he tries to put me down pretending he knows. Won't fly, I have several classes on it under my belt. :) He would do better to discuss XII story telling on it's merits, not on my and any other people's "flaws" because we don't love it.

He's not personally attacking you. He's calling you out on having an invalid argument. His point is that Vaan and Penelo don't forget their motivations after certain points in the game (and I'm still waiting to hear why you think this is the case), and anyone who has actually played the game without prejudice can see that. If anything, you're the one resorting to personal attacks. I haven't once seen him say anything that amounted to "you don't know what you're talking about," yet that's exactly what you just said of him. Funny that you're ignoring his points and throwing around fancy Philosophy 101 debate words while he is actually presenting a viable argument. If you know so much, prove it instead of whining that he's picking on you when he isn't.

[Setzer Gabianni]

I thought Savannah was on about me first. Lol. The only few people here who have argued rather decently on this are Savannah and Cap'n Basch.


He knows nothing of story telling theory yet he tries to put me down pretending he knows. Won't fly, I have several classes on it under my belt.

So what? Noone has to have a massive amount of experience in this sort of thing. Just a way with words when speaking to the audience, doing your best to explain things will do well enough to earn respect from other people.

EDIT: Put you down? What the heck? I saw no personal attacks. If I'd have seen any, I'd have said so.

[Renmiri]

EDIT: Put you down? What the heck? I saw no personal attacks. If I'd have seen any, I'd have said so.


If you weren't going in like a child with ADD, almost all of the things I mentioned were very easy to deduce...

As for Penelo, I guess if you just sleep through every time Larsa joins the party... I suppose you could make the case she was forgotten.

...You can't notice that stuff from afar nor in a passing conversation.

QED or the proof is in the pudding :p



He knows nothing of story telling theory yet he tries to put me down pretending he knows. Won't fly, I have several classes on it under my belt.

So what? Noone has to have a massive amount of experience in this sort of thing. Just a way with words when speaking to the audience, doing your best to explain things will do well enough to earn respect from other people.
That is the reason I respect you, WK and most people here. That is also the reason I don't respect nor wish to debate "Mr. Anyone who disagrees with me has ADD" :mad:

EDIT: Savannah, someone can post a picture of a blond girl looking at a dark haired guy on here, and I can make all sorts of romance and cute deductions about them and their relationship. That makes ME a good creative person, but the guy who just posted the pictures is not a good writer. The good writes is ME (or you), i.e, the person who came up with all this little stories the original author didn't provide.

XII is like that. they throw a bunch of guys and girls in a world and let you come up with the story you like. Which is fine, I can do it. Just don't ask me to praise their script writing skills when they left all the script writing undone and up to me to come up with something.

[Setzer Gabianni]

Oh darn, I missed that. Usually I'm so observant. :(

[Renmiri]

:p You were probably so happy with his passionate view of XII that you didn't notice the rest :p

Tis ok, XII is a great game, I guess that is why I whine about the story telling so much. I wanted it to be perfect for Ren :love:

[Savannah]

EDIT: Savannah, someone can post a picture of a blond girl looking at a dark haired guy on here, and I can make all sorts of romance and cute deductions about them and their relationship. That makes ME a good creative person, but the guy who just posted the pictures is not a good writer. The good writes is ME (or you), i.e, the person who came up with all this little stories the original author didn't provide.

XII is like that. they throw a bunch of guys and girls in a world and let you come up with the story you like. Which is fine, I can do it. Just don't ask me to praise their script writing skills when they left all the script writing undone and up to me to come up with something.

But that's not what they did with FFXII. You can claim lackluster storytelling all you want, but FFXII doesn't require any extra effort from the player other than a little more observation than normal. I agree that the characters and storytelling aren't as lush as they are other games, but saying that the creators left it completely up to the gamers is an exaggeration. The storytelling is a different kind than other games'-- it's subtle, it doesn't throw everything in your face, and personally, I would much rather have that than some of the silly, overblown and melodramatic moments in other FF games (Tidus and Yuna's kiss, Squall and Rinoa falling toward each other in a field). No one is asking you to worship at the feet of the writers, but claims like "Vaan and Penelo forget their motivations after this certain point in the game" are just unfair and, well, not true.

[Shattered Dreamer]

It is only a game after all why argue about it?:D Sure the story has its faults as we all pointed out but now that I think about it, the fact you have to fill in the blanks for yourself is kinda entertaining in a way. For all its faults it is not the worst game story ever, I've played games with worse storylines.

FFXII is such a great game for its gameplay and leaves alot of other rpg's with their face in the mud in this department. Of course the story was sacrificed to a point as a result but hey you can't have it both ways I suppose:mog: .

I also realise I may in someway contradicted myself at some point in this thread so feel free to point it out to me.:choc2:

[Renmiri]

I haven't once seen him say anything that amounted to "you don't know what you're talking about...


...saying that the creators left it completely up to the gamers is an exaggeration... claims like "Vaan and Penelo forget their motivations after this certain point in the game" are just unfair and, well, not true.

I guess some exaggeration is fine and harmless in your view, like "anyone who dislikes XII is like a child with ADD" while others are unfair, heh ?

Fairness works both ways.

[Savannah]

I haven't once seen him say anything that amounted to "you don't know what you're talking about...


...saying that the creators left it completely up to the gamers is an exaggeration... claims like "Vaan and Penelo forget their motivations after this certain point in the game" are just unfair and, well, not true.

I guess some exaggeration is fine and harmless in your view, like "anyone who dislikes XII is like a child with ADD" while others are unfair, heh ?

Fairness works both ways.

Frankly, making claims like that one DOES remind me of a kid with ADD-- just get over it, you made a hasty judgment in effort of insulting the game (and, indirectly, anyone who doesn't agree with you). It doesn't take a whole lot of observation to see that Vaan and Penelo's motives are pretty clear throughout the game. I honestly don't really see how you missed it.

Once again, I think you should stop dwelling on whether or not Cap'n Basch is picking on you if your intent is to make a valid claim about this game. The more time you spend trying to cherry-pick insults out of other peoples' remarks, the more you look like your actual argument holds no water.

[Bolivar]

alot of good points are being brought up here. I agree with Cap'n Basch that the player doesn't need much to understand the story - the motivations are definately present, and there's many for each character. I look at Vaan and Penelo as used as Tidus was in X - they're essentially an every-day-person's point of view on what is going on, a perspective for the player to observe the storyline with. That's probably why they didn't go through as many changes as Ashe, Fran, Balthier and Basch.

At the same time, I've always been with Renmiri when it comes to the storyline. They really should have put as much effort into that as they did with world detail and gameplay. The fact that the last two one-player games in the series were IX and X, should make it obvious why so many of us have complaints with its storyline. It took a backseat, metaphorically, far back in the vehicle, and because of that, this game almost isn't an RPG, much less a Final Fantasy.

Probably my main reason for this is because XII had such a great backstory. I would have liked to learn more about it and what was going on, as that's what really hooked me in in the beginning parts of the game. Overall, I think the story-to-gameplay ratio was way off, but just adequate enough for me to have a positive opinion on this game.

[Shattered Dreamer]

Probably my main reason for this is because XII had such a great backstory. I would have liked to learn more about it and what was going on, as that's what really hooked me in in the beginning parts of the game. Overall, I think the story-to-gameplay ratio was way off, but just adequate enough for me to have a positive opinion on this game.

Couldn't have put it better if I tried:choc2:

[Renmiri]

They really should have put as much effort into that as they did with world detail and gameplay. The fact that the last two one-player games in the series were IX and X, should make it obvious why so many of us have complaints with its storyline. It took a backseat, metaphorically, far back in the vehicle, and because of that, this game almost isn't an RPG, much less a Final Fantasy.

Probably my main reason for this is because XII had such a great backstory. I would have liked to learn more about it and what was going on, as that's what really hooked me in in the beginning parts of the game. Overall, I think the story-to-gameplay ratio was way off, but just adequate enough for me to have a positive opinion on this game.

QFT

Like I said to Setz, the reason I pick so much on the weak points of XII is because the strong points almost made it the best game ever.

Savanah and Capt'n: Grow up and we can talk :p

[Formalhaut]

Ok, we all need to take a break and have some nice cocoa.

Going into heated Discussion Mode... Please wait.....



Now, about the story, i think you don't always need the story in your face 24/7, and that you sometimes need the story to be in the background abit, whilst of corse staying in line.

And if I was queen, Would I have the time to locate my friends Vaan and Penelo(Team BAP), who has been gallavanting off as hes a sky pirate? Not likely.

Going into Normal Discussion made...Please wait.....


There, now, have all of you enjoyed my Cocoa I made you? You did! I made it out of my special Balthier Recipe! :bigbiggri

[Yukki-Chan]

A lot of people say that Vaan and Penelo forget their motivations, I don't think so they just stop repeating them, lets face it if they harped on about the reasons why they were on this journey too much nearly all of you would have something to say about it.

I do agree however that they seem like backseat characters when we start getting further into the story. It's kinda like it veers off course and focuses on storylines and events that relate to the other characters. I just kept Vaan in my party because I'd had him for so long at the start I couldn't imagine the party without him.

This said I haven't even finished the game yet so I'm just commenting on what I've seen so far, although I'm sure I have very little right to.

[Cap'n Basch]

Cap'n Basch pretty much owns a lot of people in here. <3

Blaming gamers for XII's poor story telling is not owning :p

I respect Wolf Kano's and your points, Cap'n Basch in spite of his gorgeous name (Bash!!!! :tongue: ) is just a weak debater that resorts to AD HOMINEN attacks when he sees his pet game offended. He knows nothing of story telling theory yet he tries to put me down pretending he knows. Won't fly, I have several classes on it under my belt. :) He would do better to discuss XII story telling on it's merits, not on my and any other people's "flaws" because we don't love it.

Ad hominem, when used correctly, is a fallacy based on saying "Person X is Y" and asserting their viewpoint is not correct as a consequence of that. It is not generalised to personal attacks, and I made none of those anyway. Moreover, it is not always a fallacy; it is valid to say "You cannot trust this man on property rights because he is a thief".

It would be correct to bring it up if I made the direct statement that you had ADD and therefore couldn't follow the story properly.

Fun fact: saying someone's argument is wrong based solely on a fallacy and without an actual counter-argument of your own is itself a fallacy.

Further, I have presented an argument in my post - you have chosen not to address it and to make imagined attacks on you the central issue of the discussion.


I guess some exaggeration is fine and harmless in your view, like "anyone who dislikes XII is like a child with ADD" while others are unfair, heh ?

Fairness works both ways.

Your reading comprehension needs work if you read what I wrote that way. The "Child with ADD" line is hyperbole with respect to the length of your attention span (derived from the fact you seem to forget plot points quickly when presented with a certain volume of gameplay). It is not a general attack on XII haters, and saying that is is dishonest - and a very good way to sidestep the need to provide an actual argument. I think you're capable of having this discussion, why are you looking so hard for a reason to cop out?


Additional, I would point out that I and I expect many others here don't care that you've taken "classes", and it's actually irrelevant to the discussion at hand because we cannot verify the quality of these courses, their content, your relative success in them, and so on and so forth. Having an interest in creative writing does not make you a literary critic and definitely not an infallible one, though you certainly make the effort to pass yourself off as such here.

I'm going to quote this:


The more time you spend trying to cherry-pick insults out of other peoples' remarks, the more you look like your actual argument holds no water.

Then present this:


Vaan hasn't forgotten his brother by Jahara and Penelo certainly hasn't "forgotten herself". An absence of direct referrences to Reks should not be read like that. Reks was important for helping establish Vaan's character and his relationship with Basch; he was not there for Vaan to endlessly angst over as though he were Squall. Vaan is not solely defined by Reks. And not only is it impertinent to the development of the actual story to bring him up, but from the fact Vaan is no longer ostensibly angry about Reks' death, we can infer he was made peace with it and it reflects a grown trust in Basch.

...every time Larsa joins the party, any subsequent interactions between those two characters, and the things she says in later areas (specifically Archades, because how she and Vaan feel about the Empire is important to their characters)...

Which are the correctly cherry-picked quotations if you actually want to have a meaningful discussion rather than a derail to avoid having to justify your viewpoint. And the things you didn't bother actually responding to. Care to actually defend the position I refuted?

[Marshall Banana]

Ashe: "Then I will defend Dalmasca and stop this Bahamut. This is my charge -"
Vaan: "That's our charge, actually."
Penelo: "It's our home. It belongs to us all."

I know that I'm satisfied. =o

[rubah]

Since when does final fantasy == great storyline? Go replay the NES games xD

[Renmiri]

Hehe.. So you want to say I have no arguments against XII lack of story ? Go right ahead, we both have post histories so it's easy to see who is doing a fallacy. I suggest you start on December 2006 on my posts. My November 2006 posts were still pretty tentative as I was still pretty early in the game. And the later posts, well... It's been over 6 months discussing it, so I only bother when I think it is good debate. Mud slinging fests I'll take a pass.

[Cap'n Basch]

That is paramount to an admission that you cannot defend your assertions.

You have made specific assertions that are relevant to this thread. Saying "look at my post history" is laziness at best and an outright cop-out because you have no argument at worst. Since you're not willing to actually present an actual case to back up your statements, there is no reason anyone should take what you're saying seriously.

And if you're not up for mud-slinging, you shouldn't have been so quick to misrepresent or caricaturise other people's positions ("He's saying all XII haters have ADD!") in a cheap ploy to strengthen your own. This is another fallacy: it's called a strawman. Maybe you would like to retract a few of your statements?

[Savannah]

Savanah and Capt'n: Grow up and we can talk :p

Or maybe when you learn to put all the masterful knowledge you got from "storytelling" classes to use instead of just whining that people are insulting you when they aren't, we can talk.

[Dr. Acula]

I think everyone needs to take another cocoa break.:)

Penelo was there to look after Vaan, and because she didn't want to go back to Rabanastre without him, so I'm assuming. Vaan was there to avenge his brother.
On a slightly off-topic note, I wish this game had more dialogue. I loved the characters, but when I borrowed FFX off a friend, I was like, "Wow, they talk a lot. They should have done this in FF12!"

[Setzer Gabianni]

They talked an awful lot, but remember, were these characters like those in X? No. Maybe if Ashe was a little bit friendlier, then maybe there'd have been more chit chat - but she was..not a typical main heroine. Though she seemed "bitter" and wanted to get things done, she still managed to come across as being..somewhat caring. She didn't want to dilly dally around, she wanted to get things done/sorted. There was plenty of interaction, between everyone.

[Firo Volondé]

TBPH, after reading that discussion (if you could even call it that:rolleyes2 ), I'm agreeing strongly with Renmiri here. I'll try to justify why, though I haven't finished it yet.

At the beginning of the game, Vaan is the main character, and we see he has strong feelings about avenging his brother, especially when he meets Reks' supposed killer, Basch. In time, he does realize that the Empire, not Basch, killed his brother. From that point on, Vaan goes from a cameo, to a mere Vincent character (as in, like Vincent, his only role is to be an extra playable character).

Onboard the Strahl, he plays no role whatsoever, and when the party leaves Bhujerba afterwards (the scene where Ashe plans to steal Balthier's ship) his entire reason for going is, and this is a direct quote, "I don't want to stick around this place." He doesn't have to bring his brother up constantly, but if he was going to, that would be the time. I could stop here, because Savannah and Cap'n have already failed, but I want to make sure you can't dismiss my evidence as a bad case of ADD:rolleyes2 .

Another direct quote:

Balthier: Hard to say. I'll know when I find it. What is it you want, Vaan?
What are you looking for?

Vaan: Me? What am I looking for? I guess- well, I- you know...

Yo, Vaan. Is the answer you're looking for 'avenge my brother' perchance? Why don't you say it? Maybe because... you've forgotten it! :eek:

Vaan finally remembers his brother in Jahara, but all thoughts of revenge are long gone by then. So why were Vaan and Penelo even there? Unlike the previous games, the character you control in cities is not the central character. In my opinion, they are just present to illustrate the fact that war affects everybody, not just the important people in the world.


Ah, that was a good rant. I think I'll have some cocoa now. :)

[Renmiri]

Hihi! I want my cocoa with some marshmallows on top please ;)

Another thingthat bothered me was the sky pirate concept. It is such a cool concept yet we saw nothing about it. What exactly do Vaan and Penelo do after they get the Strahl ? Do they go around stealing stuff from Larsa's fleets ? From Ashe's fleets ? From Al Cid's ? From Tomaj and the other merchants ?

It is just a very cool concept completely abandoned right after it is born, like many others in XII. I honestly think that they ran out of time or something, because the script writers left so much cool / important stuff unexplored!:(

[Setzer Gabianni]

..Vaan and Pennelo get the Strahl for themselves like..at the end of the game? So you're not going to see much of "sky pirating" yourself are you? You'll probably see more of it in FFXII RW. So, it's not a cool concept that's been abandoned - seeing as they only get the Strahl to themselves at the end, it's not exactly had enough time for anyone to say that the cool concept has been abandoned.

[Formalhaut]

*Gives cocoa to Renmiri with Marshmellows on top :love:*

Right, lets recap on what we haved Talked/dicussed/argued about.

Ok 1st off the thread started saying whats the Point of Penelo:mad: Then it went to why she is to be in the game. Then Renmiri said that Vaan forgets his Brother and Penelo Forgets herself:eek: Then it drifted abit to the story and ending. Then To ASHE(Team BAP) about her abondoning the Party when she is queen. Then Cap'n Basch says that it would affect her time with her friends (Being queen) Then about Personal attacking, then about why argue? Then a recap. Then more dialog, then my post, then to Penelo and Vaan again. Then personal again... then Ashe and the storyline. Then a break... of cocoa. Then sky pirates then my post.

[Renmiri]

I hope so, RW seems like a cute game and more sky pirating after seeing none can only be good :D

[Namelessfengir]

Adult doujinshi.

hells yeah!!!

or maybe theirs a code so it's like gta and she'll restore your health

[Marshall Banana]

So why were Vaan and Penelo even there? Unlike the previous games, the character you control in cities is not the central character. In my opinion, they are just present to illustrate the fact that war affects everybody, not just the important people in the world.
XD! To aid their Queen, to help her find a way to restore their home's independence, and to fight against the Empire that wrecked their lives - you don't think those are good reasons for Vaan and Penelo to stick around?

[Savannah]

TBPH, after reading that discussion (if you could even call it that:rolleyes2 ), I'm agreeing strongly with Renmiri here. I'll try to justify why, though I haven't finished it yet.

At the beginning of the game, Vaan is the main character, and we see he has strong feelings about avenging his brother, especially when he meets Reks' supposed killer, Basch. In time, he does realize that the Empire, not Basch, killed his brother. From that point on, Vaan goes from a cameo, to a mere Vincent character (as in, like Vincent, his only role is to be an extra playable character).

Onboard the Strahl, he plays no role whatsoever, and when the party leaves Bhujerba afterwards (the scene where Ashe plans to steal Balthier's ship) his entire reason for going is, and this is a direct quote, "I don't want to stick around this place." He doesn't have to bring his brother up constantly, but if he was going to, that would be the time. I could stop here, because Savannah and Cap'n have already failed, but I want to make sure you can't dismiss my evidence as a bad case of ADD:rolleyes2 .

Another direct quote:

Balthier: Hard to say. I'll know when I find it. What is it you want, Vaan?
What are you looking for?

Vaan: Me? What am I looking for? I guess- well, I- you know...

Yo, Vaan. Is the answer you're looking for 'avenge my brother' perchance? Why don't you say it? Maybe because... you've forgotten it! :eek:

Vaan finally remembers his brother in Jahara, but all thoughts of revenge are long gone by then. So why were Vaan and Penelo even there? Unlike the previous games, the character you control in cities is not the central character. In my opinion, they are just present to illustrate the fact that war affects everybody, not just the important people in the world.


Ah, that was a good rant. I think I'll have some cocoa now. :)

Go fight the bosses in the Pharos again (I guess everyone is just ignoring me on this point since it might make you face a flaw in your theory). Vaan doesn't stop talking about his brother after Bhujerba. He doesn't answer Balthier because... how is "avenging my brother" an answer to "What are you looking for?" None of this is evidence of Vaan "forgetting" his brother. If he talked about Reks any more than he did, you would all be bitching that he's too whiny (i.e., like everyone did with Tidus).

[Bolivar]

Go fight the bosses in the Pharos again (I guess everyone is just ignoring me on this point since it might make you face a flaw in your theory). Vaan doesn't stop talking about his brother after Bhujerba. He doesn't answer Balthier because... how is "avenging my brother" an answer to "What are you looking for?" None of this is evidence of Vaan "forgetting" his brother. If he talked about Reks any more than he did, you would all be bitching that he's too whiny (i.e., like everyone did with Tidus).


Why is it that this story gets defended with such exaggerations? No, of course we don't want the characters babbling on for excessive amounts of time explaining their motivations. That's not what this thread is calling for, nor is it what it's about.

This thread seems to be a piece in the larger issue that this game fails as an RPG, and as a Final Fantasy. The graphical detail, open-ended character build system, and amount of optional challenges is perhaps unprecedented in console gaming. But effort-wise, when compared to all that, the story is practically non-existent.

I just posted in the FFVII forums about the storytelling techniques of that game. And when I think about it, it's sad that a game released 10 years ago can be so much more accomplished in this area.

I don't hate FFXII. But I recognize its faults, and its lack of story is far too noticeable to be overlooked.

[Karellen]

http://imgred.com/http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/43/Tower_of_babel.gif

[Setzer Gabianni]

what the heck is that?

[BG-57]

The Tower of Babel, which is the origin of the word babble.

[Firo Volondé]

XD! To aid their Queen, to help her find a way to restore their home's independence, and to fight against the Empire that wrecked their lives - you don't think those are good reasons for Vaan and Penelo to stick around?

Stick around? Maybe. But not as a playable character, much less the representative of the party outside of battle. It would help if they had anything worthwhile to say. Only Ashe, Basch and Balthier had enough significance to really be considered main characters.


Go fight the bosses in the Pharos again (I guess everyone is just ignoring me on this point since it might make you face a flaw in your theory).

I can't, because I'm not up to that point yet (I assume you're talking to me, since you're replying to my quote), but I did consult a game script (watching out for spoilers), and found a single reference to Reks. That does prove Vaan didn't completely forget about him, but if I was avenging someone, I'd mention them a lot more than once.


Vaan doesn't stop talking about his brother after Bhujerba. He doesn't answer Balthier because... how is "avenging my brother" an answer to "What are you looking for?"

How about the other part of Balthier's question, "What is it you want?" There, the reply "To avenge my brother" makes perfect sense. Tsk, you really should read your opponent's whole argument before trying to rebutt it.


None of this is evidence of Vaan "forgetting" his brother. If he talked about Reks any more than he did, you would all be bitching that he's too whiny (i.e., like everyone did with Tidus).

I don't think so. There's a very tangible difference between whining about your problem once after the first 10% of the game, and whining about your problem at regular intervals.

[Formalhaut]

http://imgred.com/http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/43/Tower_of_babel.gif


Ha ha ha ha! very funny. Babble. Lol. Very nice. You get a free cocoa with Marshmellows on top!!