the orphanage

[Cool Revolutionary]

wasnt this bit great! i loved the flash backs they were so fun. may i also say how funny seifer looked as a kid?! it was sooo interesting to find out they all knew each other years ago. its moments like this that make ff8 so magical, it will always be my favourite ff. dont you think they shouldve put more flash backs in?

[LunarWeaver]

The whole flashback-heavy scene on the basketball court seems to be a favorite for many or ruin the entire game for many. I guess it either emotionally connects you to the events or is too coincidental to bear.

For me, it's my favorite in the whole game. I loved it :smash:

[DiggyPup]

Right on. It's definitely one of the more emotional scenes in the game, at least for me. I'm especially drawn to the fact that Seifer was a part of the orphanage gang, too. I really wished he had gotten more screen time as a kid, maybe a scene to show a different side of him rather than the same old bully poking fun at and harassing others. :rolleyes2

[ragnosica]

I think that FF5 and 6 have the most flashbacks ever

[10-Breaker]

World is a small place.

[Skyblade]

World is a small place.

I know. There are only like a dozen cities...

[Cool Revolutionary]

Right on. It's definitely one of the more emotional scenes in the game, at least for me. I'm especially drawn to the fact that Seifer was a part of the orphanage gang, too. I really wished he had gotten more screen time as a kid, maybe a scene to show a different side of him rather than the same old bully poking fun at and harassing others. :rolleyes2
yeah but it was funny seeing him still insulting zell even when he was a junior.

[MJN SEIFER]

wasnt this bit great! i loved the flash backs they were so fun. may i also say how funny seifer looked as a kid?! it was sooo interesting to find out they all knew each other years ago. its moments like this that make ff8 so magical, it will always be my favourite ff. dont you think they shouldve put more flash backs in?

Finaly someone else who like this scene, everybody else here seamed to think it was the worst.

For the record I liked this scene too.

[Zeromus_X]

The whole flashback-heavy scene on the basketball court seems to be a favorite for many or ruin the entire game for many. I guess it either emotionally connects you to the events or is too coincidental to bear.

For me, it's my favorite in the whole game. I loved it :smash:

[Karellen]

This one scene is probably the most cited reason as to why FFVIII is the worst game in the series.

While I'm not sure it's as bad as all that (if anything, gameplay is FFVIII's main failing) it's definitely not an example of great story telling.

[MJN SEIFER]

This one scene is probably the most cited reason as to why FFVIII is the worst game in the series.

While I'm not sure it's as bad as all that (if anything, gameplay is FFVIII's main failing) it's definitely not an example of great story telling.

See what I mean...

Why am I always the minority?

[Cool Revolutionary]

wasnt this bit great! i loved the flash backs they were so fun. may i also say how funny seifer looked as a kid?! it was sooo interesting to find out they all knew each other years ago. its moments like this that make ff8 so magical, it will always be my favourite ff. dont you think they shouldve put more flash backs in?

Finaly someone else who like this scene, everybody else here seamed to think it was the worst.

For the record I liked this scene too.
:)


This one scene is probably the most cited reason as to why FFVIII is the worst game in the series.

While I'm not sure it's as bad as all that (if anything, gameplay is FFVIII's main failing) it's definitely not an example of great story telling.
whaaat! how can you possibly think this? it is a good example of story telling. its a good fantasy twist. and look at how mAgical the whole scene is with the snow etc. and after the orphanage...comes battle of the gardens....DEFINITELY the best final fantasy!!!!!

[Karellen]

There are two major problems that I have with the scene. From what I’ve seen, these points tend to be along similar lines to how most others who dislike the scene feel about it:

1. It’s incredibly cliché. I understand what the writers were trying to do here (since character connections and the past are of great importance to the plot of FFVIII) but there really is no excuse for choosing such a prevalent literary staple to achieve their ends. It wouldn’t be the first time the series pulled something like this though (I’m looking at you FFIV) and this problem is no where near as detrimental as the next one.

2. There is no foreshadowing. At all. Up until the plot twist, there is absolutely nothing within the game to indicate any relationship between the protagonists. The whole thing comes out of right field and ends up seeming rather disjointed from everything that came before it. What’s worse is that in order to explain the obviously ridiculous nature of the situation, the writers introduce yet another deus ex machine plot twist (“The GFs made us forget”) which does its bit to try and salvage things (while leaving behind a head-ache’s worth of questions) then completely disappears from the game, never to be referenced by anyone ever again.

There really isn’t anything good about the whole thing. Conceptually, it was already pretty weak and it is made infinitely worse by being lazily integrated into the plot. The fact that it was snowing or whatever doesn’t really do much to help.

[Cool Revolutionary]

There are two major problems that I have with the scene. From what I’ve seen, these points tend to be along similar lines to how most others who dislike the scene feel about it:

1. It’s incredibly cliché. I understand what the writers were trying to do here (since character connections and the past are of great importance to the plot of FFVIII) but there really is no excuse for choosing such a prevalent literary staple to achieve their ends. It wouldn’t be the first time the series pulled something like this though (I’m looking at you FFIV) and this problem is no where near as detrimental as the next one.

2. There is no foreshadowing. At all. Up until the plot twist, there is absolutely nothing within the game to indicate any relationship between the protagonists. The whole thing comes out of right field and ends up seeming rather disjointed from everything that came before it. What’s worse is that in order to explain the obviously ridiculous nature of the situation, the writers introduce yet another deus ex machine plot twist (“The GFs made us forget”) which does its bit to try and salvage things (while leaving behind a head-ache’s worth of questions) then completely disappears from the game, never to be referenced by anyone ever again.

There really isn’t anything good about the whole thing. Conceptually, it was already pretty weak and it is made infinitely worse by being lazily integrated into the plot. The fact that it was snowing or whatever doesn’t really do much to help.
i still disagree....and always willllll.;)

[blackmage_nuke]

Well to me, as much as i enjoyed it, it just seemed to coincidental, and even though it came completly unexpected, it's not like it changed anything afterwards, except thier connection with Edea, but even if only one or two of them came from the orphanage it would have made the same effect, and be abit less farfetched

[Cool Revolutionary]

Well to me, as much as i enjoyed it, it just seemed to coincidental, and even though it came completly unexpected, it's not like it changed anything afterwards, except thier connection with Edea, but even if only one or two of them came from the orphanage it would have made the same effect, and be abit less farfetched
it doesnt matter if it didnt particuarly change anything afterwards...it was a nice thing to see that they were all friends years ago...it was a beautiful moment!!!!!!!!:D

[DiggyPup]

Well to me, as much as i enjoyed it, it just seemed to coincidental, and even though it came completly unexpected, it's not like it changed anything afterwards, except thier connection with Edea, but even if only one or two of them came from the orphanage it would have made the same effect, and be abit less farfetched

I agree that having all of the main characters together during their childhood was farfetched. But then again, they were the Children of Fate - the chosen ones - according to "Liberi Fatali". A lot of the quotes in the game revolve around the theme of fate and whether or not it exists.

Headmaster Cid: "Squall, our fate lies in your hands now."
Squall: "Don't talk about this like it's been decided since my birth!"
Dr. Kadowaki: "You said it yourself. There's no way you can run from him...It's kind of like your destiny to face him."
Irvine: "It's not like I drifted here on the tides of fate. I'm here because I chose to be here."

Just some food for thought. ;)

[f f freak]

There are two major problems that I have with the scene. From what I’ve seen, these points tend to be along similar lines to how most others who dislike the scene feel about it:

1. It’s incredibly cliché. I understand what the writers were trying to do here (since character connections and the past are of great importance to the plot of FFVIII) but there really is no excuse for choosing such a prevalent literary staple to achieve their ends. It wouldn’t be the first time the series pulled something like this though (I’m looking at you FFIV) and this problem is no where near as detrimental as the next one.

2. There is no foreshadowing. At all. Up until the plot twist, there is absolutely nothing within the game to indicate any relationship between the protagonists. The whole thing comes out of right field and ends up seeming rather disjointed from everything that came before it. What’s worse is that in order to explain the obviously ridiculous nature of the situation, the writers introduce yet another deus ex machine plot twist (“The GFs made us forget”) which does its bit to try and salvage things (while leaving behind a head-ache’s worth of questions) then completely disappears from the game, never to be referenced by anyone ever again.

There really isn’t anything good about the whole thing. Conceptually, it was already pretty weak and it is made infinitely worse by being lazily integrated into the plot. The fact that it was snowing or whatever doesn’t really do much to help.

I agree 100%. Rinoa sucks too.

[rubah]

You know. . .

As much as people say it's cliched and stuff, what plots from other stories really have that happen?

[Bolivar]

I thought it was a very good scene, but I'm not gonna act like it wasn't a little random and possibly a little cheap. It was a easy way out for the writers to connect the characters and add a level of depth to their plight.

But you can't hate on the whole "wait...who was the matron?" part of it, the music stops, visec lithos whatever-the-hell comes on and it's Edea. That was some crazy stuff. Storytelling elements like that is why the PSX generation is my favorite.

[blackmage_nuke]

Well to me, as much as i enjoyed it, it just seemed to coincidental, and even though it came completly unexpected, it's not like it changed anything afterwards, except thier connection with Edea, but even if only one or two of them came from the orphanage it would have made the same effect, and be abit less farfetched
it doesnt matter if it didnt particuarly change anything afterwards...it was a nice thing to see that they were all friends years ago...it was a beautiful moment!!!!!!!!:DTrue, but to me a better way to have it done would be to have them all known each other through different means, not all of them just at the one orphanage

[Cool Revolutionary]

Well to me, as much as i enjoyed it, it just seemed to coincidental, and even though it came completly unexpected, it's not like it changed anything afterwards, except thier connection with Edea, but even if only one or two of them came from the orphanage it would have made the same effect, and be abit less farfetched


I agree that having all of the main characters together during their childhood was farfetched.
farfetched? it is a fantasy story.




Well to me, as much as i enjoyed it, it just seemed to coincidental, and even though it came completly unexpected, it's not like it changed anything afterwards, except thier connection with Edea, but even if only one or two of them came from the orphanage it would have made the same effect, and be abit less farfetched
it doesnt matter if it didnt particuarly change anything afterwards...it was a nice thing to see that they were all friends years ago...it was a beautiful moment!!!!!!!!:DTrue, but to me a better way to have it done would be to have them all known each other through different means, not all of them just at the one orphanage
didnt you think it was fun though...knowing they all ran around together as little kids havin fun!

[Zeromus_X]

What’s worse is that in order to explain the obviously ridiculous nature of the situation, the writers introduce yet another deus ex machine plot twist (“The GFs made us forget”)

Actually, if you investigate the control panel in Squall's classroom at the beginning of the game, it does mention that 'there are theories indicating that GF use causes memory loss" or something along those lines.

[Ryushikaze]

It was a nice idea, and the actual flashbacks were nice, but it was executed HORRIBLY. No lead up, no real follow up. If even Irvine had made a "just like always" comment that no one got, it might have been better.

That and a better explanation as to why they didn't remember might have helped. Or, again, more of a lead up to the fact that GFs do in fact occasionally interfere with memory issues. Hell, make a point of it. Make it so any SeeD training with GFs were mandated to keep a recorded journal to refresh their memories and other precautions taken to make sure the GFs did not permanently damage their memories.

[Cool Revolutionary]

What’s worse is that in order to explain the obviously ridiculous nature of the situation, the writers introduce yet another deus ex machine plot twist (“The GFs made us forget”)

Actually, if you investigate the control panel in Squall's classroom at the beginning of the game, it does mention that 'there are theories indicating that GF use causes memory loss" or something along those lines.
THANK YOU! i was gonna saythat myself. :) some folks really dont pay attention do they?

[Karellen]

What’s worse is that in order to explain the obviously ridiculous nature of the situation, the writers introduce yet another deus ex machine plot twist (“The GFs made us forget”)Actually, if you investigate the control panel in Squall's classroom at the beginning of the game, it does mention that 'there are theories indicating that GF use causes memory loss" or something along those lines.
Yeah, I read that at the beginning as well. While it is in there, information that can only be found by searching through a database isn't exactly what I would call foreshadowing. It really needed to be mentioned in the main plot, or for us to see its effects sometime before the orphanage scene, for it to properly integrate itself within the story.

[Zeromus_X]

I'm not going to say that FFVIII's storyline was perfectly thrown together (although very rarely does anyone praise an RPG for such a thing) or anything, but it is referenced, nonetheless. It isn't like it's one of those things the player will pass by either, you have to access the control panel to obtain Shiva and Quetzacotl.

[Takara]

The scene isn't as cliché as it's force-fed to the players. There was no foreshadowing besides the theories about GF causing memory loss in the control panel. I wouldn't even count Irvine hesitating to shoot Edea as foreshadowing either, because it's never explained if it was because he knew Edea is Matron, or if it was really because he never shot a human being before. As Ryushikaze said, just Irvine dropping a random line once in a while about "the past" would have been better, even if it was confusing to the players and the rest of the cast prior to the flashback. Heck, even Cid could have dropped hints once in a while, whether it was intentional or accidental.

And again, as Ryushikaze said, no follow-up. They all just... kinda accept it and are the bestest buddies ever? Huh, yeah. I'm sure if I discovered four of my co-workers and I were childhood friends and we all forgot each other, I doubt we'd all become such close friends so fast. What's with growing up in different environments, defining our personalities over the years, etc... It could be possible, yes, but that wouldn't happen after two minutes.

[Cool Revolutionary]

i think the control panel info was enough. does everything need to be shoved in front of you?
its interesting aswell, you know to see the hint of whats gonna occur later.

[MJN SEIFER]

2. There is no foreshadowing. At all. Up until the plot twist, there is absolutely nothing within the game to indicate any relationship between the protagonists. The whole thing comes out of right field and ends up seeming rather disjointed from everything that came before it. What’s worse is that in order to explain the obviously ridiculous nature of the situation, the writers introduce yet another deus ex machine plot twist (“The GFs made us forget”) which does its bit to try and salvage things (while leaving behind a head-ache’s worth of questions) then completely disappears from the game, never to be referenced by anyone ever again.

There is tons of foreshadowing, you just need to know where to look.

That's what I love about most FFs but aspecially VIII is that things are aimed at perceptive people.

[ragnosica]

The hints are there but they are extremely subjective, like the fact that Rinoa gives Squall the necklace, or Irvine can't shoot Edea although it is suggested that he shot a lot of people, or the simple fact that they always stick together, it is a bond that can't be suggested by anything else than the past.

[Cool Revolutionary]

The hints are there but they are extremely subjective, like the fact that Rinoa gives Squall the necklace, or Irvine can't shoot Edea although it is suggested that he shot a lot of people, or the simple fact that they always stick together, it is a bond that can't be suggested by anything else than the past.
was irvines hesitation really to do with that though?
he did say he always gets all nervous.

[Karellen]

2. There is no foreshadowing. At all. Up until the plot twist, there is absolutely nothing within the game to indicate any relationship between the protagonists. The whole thing comes out of right field and ends up seeming rather disjointed from everything that came before it. What’s worse is that in order to explain the obviously ridiculous nature of the situation, the writers introduce yet another deus ex machine plot twist (“The GFs made us forget”) which does its bit to try and salvage things (while leaving behind a head-ache’s worth of questions) then completely disappears from the game, never to be referenced by anyone ever again. There is tons of foreshadowing, you just need to know where to look.

That's what I love about most FFs but aspecially VIII is that things are aimed at perceptive people.
Some examples then? Because besides the control panel (which only mentions the memory aspect) I really can't think of any.

[Goldenboko]

I hated it. Big time.

Basically the entire idea the orphanage was...

Square Writer: OH CRAP! We forgot to thrown in pasts on the other characters to make them relate!
Some other Square Writer: I know, we can explain all of their backgrounds in ONE REALLY BIG CRAPPY SCENE!
Square Writer: But uh... how will they be connected?
Other Writer: I know! We'll pick random cliches out of a hat.
*Picks out of hat*
Square Writer: Hmm... We could make them orphans.
Other Writer: Cool, make up some crap why they couldn't remember it and throw this cliche in a huge scene after the bombing, I mean we where looking to put something there anyway.

Yeah... That sums up why I hate it so.

[Fonzie]

I laughed and thought they didn't have much time to make this plot-twist an actual plot-twist.

[MJN SEIFER]

From what I remember (If I remember more I'll say) the hints are around. One of which being Irvine being unable to shoot at the correctly planned moment, that is because he knows about the past more than the others. His claims of "cracking under pressure" in clearly a cover that any morron could work out (Hey, I worked it out didn't I?) the pressure of "history" is nothing, and it wouldn't have made history anyway, all people care about is assanations never who's done them. He is dillbertly acting OOC and Square know it.

Another is in the D-District Prison. A reminicent moment after Squall saves Zell, someone who he is hardly suposed to know at this point, as they have hardly interacted at this point. This is further notable as Sqaull is still in his "keep to self" stage at this point, further break in character moment, also this could be a start of Squall changing aswell, but you can see the nostaliga forming.

Also it is stated in one of the FE pages that the characters have a past dream (Ellone's) about the orphanage, this is hint threw expressinon and this is how Sephie was able to guess before Irvine said about the orphanage, I can't remember where this takes placem I'll check later.

Some of the hints are more direct than the ones that aren't, and it is more based on expression than others.


Shortly before the parade when Rinoa's dad is explaing what to do, he mentions Edea's name - this is the first time we, and suposedly the characters have heard "The Sorceress" being called by name. But Sqaull thinks to him self about the name, and through expression, it's obvious he's heard it before somewhere...

I'll add more later, if I can remember. And there's probably a lot I missed.

[Karellen]

From what I remember (If I remember more I'll say) the hints are around. One of which being Irvine being unable to shoot at the correctly planned moment, that is because he knows about the past more than the others. His claims of "cracking under pressure" in clearly a cover that any morron could work out (Hey, I worked it out didn't I?) the pressure of "history" is nothing, and it wouldn't have made history anyway, all people care about is assanations never who's done them. He is dillbertly acting OOC and Square know it.
The game gives the player no reason to question the validity of Irvine’s nervousness at that point in time. There is nothing in the way he delivers his lines that implies that he is lying, nor does Squall question his sincerity either. If they player doesn’t consider his explanation particularly believable, there is no reason for the player to jump to anything beyond “the writers gave him pretty lame motivations”.


Another is in the D-District Prison. A reminicent moment after Squall saves Zell, someone who he is hardly suposed to know at this point, as they have hardly interacted at this point. This is further notable as Sqaull is still in his "keep to self" stage at this point, further break in character moment, also this could be a start of Squall changing aswell, but you can see the nostaliga forming.

Is this the scene in question? (script taken from gamefaq.com)


Meanwhile...

Guard: There he is! Over there!!! Seize the escapee, dead or alive!!!

Zell: Tch! Too many! I'm outta here!

Zell moves on but is struck by someone.

Zell: Ugh...

Warden: You bastard... DIE!!!

Suddenly, Squall came up and killed the Warden with his gunblade.

Squall: Didn't think he'd go down that easy.

Zell: Squall!!! Thanks, man!!!

Squall: W-What!? Let go. I said, let go!
I don’t see anything there that could be called reminiscing. If this isn’t the scene you’re talking about you’ll have to point it out to me.


Also it is stated in one of the FE pages that the characters have a past dream (Ellone's) about the orphanage, this is hint threw expressinon and this is how Sephie was able to guess before Irvine said about the orphanage, I can't remember where this takes placem I'll check later.
The only scene before the orphanage plot twist that actually involves the orphanage in any shape or form is a scene involving Squall (and only Squall) as a child. Only, there is no way to tell from the scene that it’s set in an orphanage and indeed the only thing one can take away from the scene is that Squall had a (at this point unnamed) sister (‘Sis’, later revealed to be Ellone) who apparently left him.


Shortly before the parade when Rinoa's dad is explaing what to do, he mentions Edea's name - this is the first time we, and suposedly the characters have heard "The Sorceress" being called by name. But Sqaull thinks to him self about the name, and through expression, it's obvious he's heard it before somewhere...

Once again, from the FFVIII gamescript:


General Caraway: I'm sure you know about the Galbadian government
reaching an agreement with sorceress Edea.

Squall: (So the sorceress' name is Edea...)

General Caraway: There is going to be a ceremony tonight to commemorate
the event.

Squall: (Edea...)
This one is probably the most substantial example that you’ve given. That being said, it doesn’t point to anything beyond Squall possibly having heard the name Edea before. Foreshadowing of the orphanage scene would have required at least a subtle clue as to their being a link between the protagonists. Squall’s musing over Edea’s name doesn’t imply this in the slightest.

[Skyblade]

This one is probably the most substantial example that you’ve given. That being said, it doesn’t point to anything beyond Squall possibly having heard the name Edea before. Foreshadowing of the orphanage scene would have required at least a subtle clue as to their being a link between the protagonists. Squall’s musing over Edea’s name doesn’t imply this in the slightest.

My guess is that he was reminded of the orphanage at that point. The GFs don't totally wipe people's memories, if they did, the group wouldn't be able to remember everything during the basketball scene. They just seem to sever the connections that allow you to recall things on your own. A reminder of the past, such as someone telling you things that happened, or a mentioned of a name from that time, would stir up the memories. Edea's name probably rang a bell in Squall's head, just not enough for him to actually remember where he heard it before.

[Goldenboko]

This one is probably the most substantial example that you’ve given. That being said, it doesn’t point to anything beyond Squall possibly having heard the name Edea before. Foreshadowing of the orphanage scene would have required at least a subtle clue as to their being a link between the protagonists. Squall’s musing over Edea’s name doesn’t imply this in the slightest.

My guess is that he was reminded of the orphanage at that point. The GFs don't totally wipe people's memories, if they did, the group wouldn't be able to remember everything during the basketball scene. They just seem to sever the connections that allow you to recall things on your own. A reminder of the past, such as someone telling you things that happened, or a mentioned of a name from that time, would stir up the memories. Edea's name probably rang a bell in Squall's head, just not enough for him to actually remember where he heard it before.

That can be disbuted but at the same time, they never called her Edea, they called her Matron.

[Takara]

Another is in the D-District Prison. A reminicent moment after Squall saves Zell, someone who he is hardly suposed to know at this point, as they have hardly interacted at this point. This is further notable as Sqaull is still in his "keep to self" stage at this point, further break in character moment, also this could be a start of Squall changing aswell, but you can see the nostaliga forming.

Or it might just be the fact that Squall, being the squad's leader, knows it's his responsibility to make sure all his teammates have a chance go back to Garden alive and in one piece.

[Skyblade]

This one is probably the most substantial example that you’ve given. That being said, it doesn’t point to anything beyond Squall possibly having heard the name Edea before. Foreshadowing of the orphanage scene would have required at least a subtle clue as to their being a link between the protagonists. Squall’s musing over Edea’s name doesn’t imply this in the slightest.

My guess is that he was reminded of the orphanage at that point. The GFs don't totally wipe people's memories, if they did, the group wouldn't be able to remember everything during the basketball scene. They just seem to sever the connections that allow you to recall things on your own. A reminder of the past, such as someone telling you things that happened, or a mentioned of a name from that time, would stir up the memories. Edea's name probably rang a bell in Squall's head, just not enough for him to actually remember where he heard it before.

That can be disbuted but at the same time, they never called her Edea, they called her Matron.

Yes, they called her that. I doubt anyone but the kids did though. We know that people visited the orphanage, and I doubt that the kids never at least heard her real name. It was enough to sound familiar, not enough to make him remember.

[Cool Revolutionary]

I hated it. Big time.

Basically the entire idea the orphanage was...

Square Writer: OH CRAP! We forgot to thrown in pasts on the other characters to make them relate!
Some other Square Writer: I know, we can explain all of their backgrounds in ONE REALLY BIG CRAPPY SCENE!
Square Writer: But uh... how will they be connected?
Other Writer: I know! We'll pick random cliches out of a hat.
*Picks out of hat*
Square Writer: Hmm... We could orphans.
Other Writer: Cool, make up some crap why they couldn't remember it and throw this cliche in a huge scene after the bombing, I mean we where looking to put something there anyway.

Yeah... That sums up why I hate it so.
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: can i call you moldy boko?!:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

[MJN SEIFER]

The game gives the player no reason to question the validity of Irvine’s nervousness at that point in time. There is nothing in the way he delivers his lines that implies that he is lying, nor does Squall question his sincerity either. If they player doesn’t consider his explanation particularly believable, there is no reason for the player to jump to anything beyond “the writers gave him pretty lame motivations”.

As I said, he is OOC see, and Square know he is, it a nice hint all is not as it seams, by this time he knows who she is, and waits to it's he's scene that way she has time to stop every thing.


Is this the scene in question? (Script taken from gamefaq.com)


Meanwhile...

Guard: There he is! Over there!!! Seize the escapee, dead or alive!!!

Zell: Tch! Too many! I'm outta here!

Zell moves on but is struck by someone.

Zell: Ugh...

Warden: You bastard... DIE!!!

Suddenly, Squall came up and killed the Warden with his gunblade.

Squall: Didn't think he'd go down that easy.

Zell: Squall!!! Thanks, man!!!

Squall: W-What!? Let go. I said, let go!
I don’t see anything there that could be called reminiscing. If this isn’t the scene you’re talking about you’ll have to point it out to me.

It's very close to that scene. Squall is asked if Zell meant anything to him, (No jokes please) and he's about to say not, but then their face expressions note nostalgia. Remember they barely know each other yet. but what another character said, jogged they're memories slightly.



The only scene before the orphanage plot twist that actually involves the orphanage in any shape or form is a scene involving Squall (and only Squall) as a child. Only, there is no way to tell from the scene that it’s set in an orphanage and indeed the only thing one can take away from the scene is that Squall had a (at this point unnamed) sister (‘Sis’, later revealed to be Ellone) who apparently left him.

The "scene" in question, isn't a scene, it just hinted they had a dream somewhere, if you could point me where it happens, or the FE page that talks about it I may be able to explain further.


This one is probably the most substantial example that you’ve given. That being said, it doesn’t point to anything beyond Squall possibly having heard the name Edea before. Foreshadowing of the orphanage scene would have required at least a subtle clue as to their being a link between the protagonists. Squall’s musing over Edea’s name doesn’t imply this in the slightest.

It's the way he thinks it, if you wait he repeats the name thought thoughthoughly as though heard it before, but can't place it, again face expressions are important too.


My guess is that he was reminded of the orphanage at that point. The GFs don't totally wipe people's memories, if they did, the group wouldn't be able to remember everything during the basketball scene. They just seem to sever the connections that allow you to recall things on your own. A reminder of the past, such as someone telling you things that happened, or a mentioned of a name from that time, would stir up the memories. Edea's name probably rang a bell in Squall's head, just not enough for him to actually remember where he heard it before.

Yes that is also what I am saying, thank you for saying this, it has made explaining this a lot easier. Infact in real life things aren't truly forgotten they are sort of "stored" somewhere, infact they could have forgot other things before with out the "aid" of the GFs, it just more necessary they did.


That can be disputed but at the same time, they never called her Edea, they called her Matron.

I think Skyblade beat me to the punch here.



Yes, they called her that. I doubt anyone but the kids did though. We know that people visited the orphanage, and I doubt that the kids never at least heard her real name. It was enough to sound familiar, not enough to make him remember

Somehow they would have learned her name somewhere, but wouldn't have used it them selves. Like Skyblade stated, he rocornized the name, but it "wasn't enough".

[Karellen]

As I said, he is OOC see, and Square know he is, it a nice hint all is not as it seams, by this time he knows who she is, and waits to it's he's scene that way she has time to stop every thing.
That doesn’t really refute what I said. That’s basically just you reiterating what you said initially. By extension, my response to this would be the same the one before, I guess.

It's very close to that scene. Squall is asked if Zell meant anything to him, (No jokes please) and he's about to say not, but then their face expressions note nostalgia. Remember they barely know each other yet. but what another character said, jogged they're memories slightly.
I’ve been through the rest of that scene and can’t find anything. Are you sure this happens soon afterwards?

The "scene" in question, isn't a scene, it just hinted they had a dream somewhere, if you could point me where it happens, or the FE page that talks about it I may be able to explain further.
It’s a little difficult for me to find a scene based on that rather vague description. With out a specific scene or key-words I would have to search through the entire script to find it, presuming the scene exists. If you have some idea as to what the scene entails, you might have better luck by downloading the script off gamefaq.com and looking through yourself.

It's the way he thinks it, if you wait he repeats the name thought thoughthoughly as though heard it before, but can't place it, again face expressions are important too.
I understand the intentions of the dialog. My point is that the scene doesn’t indicate anything in particular beyond Squall having perhaps heard the name before to someone who is playing the game for the first time.

[MJN SEIFER]

I understand the intentions of the dialog. My point is that the scene doesn’t indicate anything in particular beyond Squall having perhaps heard the name before to someone who is playing the game for the first time.

That is the beuty of FF games, at least most of them especially this one, you don't get everthing the first time.

I don't know how many people do this, but I often had more than one saves at a time, I would get so far with my first save and when I got stuck, I would either take a break with another game, or I would start this game at the begining on another save, to (a) enjoy the game threw up to the point where I got stuck, (b) See if I missed anything and (c) see if by some flute, I could be stronger by the time I got to that point and continue there.

When on my main save I saw the orphange scene, I was facinated, it was one of thoes moments where I could have just shouted OMFG (In full) there and then. I contiued a bit and (I can't remember if I got stuck, or just decided to) I stopped with this save and looked though some of my older ones, to see if anything linked up or hinted to this moment, the mention of Edea's name was the first I noticed, that's probably why I was able to explain it better than the other ones, as it was the first and I've had time, it's easier to explain, because it is easier to understand.

I've talked a bit on this one, so I'll reply to the others later.

By the way, at the end of the day, if I like this scene and you don't I guess the matter of opinon.

[f f freak]

I hated it. Big time.

Basically the entire idea the orphanage was...

Square Writer: OH CRAP! We forgot to thrown in pasts on the other characters to make them relate!
Some other Square Writer: I know, we can explain all of their backgrounds in ONE REALLY BIG CRAPPY SCENE!
Square Writer: But uh... how will they be connected?
Other Writer: I know! We'll pick random cliches out of a hat.
*Picks out of hat*
Square Writer: Hmm... We could orphans.
Other Writer: Cool, make up some crap why they couldn't remember it and throw this cliche in a huge scene after the bombing, I mean we where looking to put something there anyway.

Yeah... That sums up why I hate it so.
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: can i call you moldy boko?!:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

No you can't call him moldy boko. You should learn to not get so mad about such trivial matters. I completely agree with you Boko.

[Karellen]

I understand the intentions of the dialog. My point is that the scene doesn’t indicate anything in particular beyond Squall having perhaps heard the name before to someone who is playing the game for the first time.That is the beuty of FF games, at least most of them especially this one, you don't get everthing the first time.

I don't know how many people do this, but I often had more than one saves at a time, I would get so far with my first save and when I got stuck, I would either take a break with another game, or I would start this game at the begining on another save, to (a) enjoy the game threw up to the point where I got stuck, (b) See if I missed anything and (c) see if by some flute, I could be stronger by the time I got to that point and continue there.

When on my main save I saw the orphange scene, I was facinated, it was one of thoes moments where I could have just shouted OMFG (In full) there and then. I contiued a bit and (I can't remember if I got stuck, or just decided to) I stopped with this save and looked though some of my older ones, to see if anything linked up or hinted to this moment, the mention of Edea's name was the first I noticed, that's probably why I was able to explain it better than the other ones, as it was the first and I've had time, it's easier to explain, because it is easier to understand.
But none of that changes the fact that said the scene fails to foreshadow the orphanage scene itself, because in order to understand it's significance within the plot you have to have foreknowledge of the direction the plot will take. It's not really good enough for a story to only leave incredibly vague musings that could be taken any which way as the sole means of foreshadowing the games most (or second most, depending on how you look at it) prominent plot twist.

[Goldenboko]

I hated it. Big time.

Basically the entire idea the orphanage was...

Square Writer: OH CRAP! We forgot to thrown in pasts on the other characters to make them relate!
Some other Square Writer: I know, we can explain all of their backgrounds in ONE REALLY BIG CRAPPY SCENE!
Square Writer: But uh... how will they be connected?
Other Writer: I know! We'll pick random cliches out of a hat.
*Picks out of hat*
Square Writer: Hmm... We could orphans.
Other Writer: Cool, make up some crap why they couldn't remember it and throw this cliche in a huge scene after the bombing, I mean we where looking to put something there anyway.

Yeah... That sums up why I hate it so.
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: can i call you moldy boko?!:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Only if I could call you Crappy Conventional.

[Cool Revolutionary]

I hated it. Big time.

Basically the entire idea the orphanage was...

Square Writer: OH CRAP! We forgot to thrown in pasts on the other characters to make them relate!
Some other Square Writer: I know, we can explain all of their backgrounds in ONE REALLY BIG CRAPPY SCENE!
Square Writer: But uh... how will they be connected?
Other Writer: I know! We'll pick random cliches out of a hat.
*Picks out of hat*
Square Writer: Hmm... We could orphans.
Other Writer: Cool, make up some crap why they couldn't remember it and throw this cliche in a huge scene after the bombing, I mean we where looking to put something there anyway.

Yeah... That sums up why I hate it so.
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: can i call you moldy boko?!:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

No you can't call him moldy boko. You should learn to not get so mad about such trivial matters. I completely agree with you Boko.
first of all i dont find it to be trivial, (some would say "dont take it so seriously!" but so what) but that isnt the point. if he expressed that he didnt like it in a sensible manner, no problem...however TRYING to totally make a mockery of something (like he did) is just plain irritating.
anyway, he would have to be a sensitive soul to be upset about that.



I hated it. Big time.

Basically the entire idea the orphanage was...

Square Writer: OH CRAP! We forgot to thrown in pasts on the other characters to make them relate!
Some other Square Writer: I know, we can explain all of their backgrounds in ONE REALLY BIG CRAPPY SCENE!
Square Writer: But uh... how will they be connected?
Other Writer: I know! We'll pick random cliches out of a hat.
*Picks out of hat*
Square Writer: Hmm... We could orphans.
Other Writer: Cool, make up some crap why they couldn't remember it and throw this cliche in a huge scene after the bombing, I mean we where looking to put something there anyway.

Yeah... That sums up why I hate it so.
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: can i call you moldy boko?!:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Only if I could call you Crappy Conventional.
i dont want that name so, lets scrap moldy boko...and ill let you keep the fitting name of crappy conventional.

[f f freak]

first of all i dont find it to be trivial, (some would say "dont take it so seriously!" but so what) but that isnt the point. if he expressed that he didnt like it in a sensible manner, no problem...however TRYING to totally make a mockery of something (like he did) is just plain irritating.
He wasn't trying to make a total mockery of it. He did make a total mockery of it. Though it wasn't really a mockery. More like the truth.

[Mirage]

The scene is okay, but it is a bit random. I can like it if I disregard that it came completely out of the blue. And it was definitely not the gameplay that was the downer in this game.

[Goldenboko]

I hated it. Big time.

Basically the entire idea the orphanage was...

Square Writer: OH CRAP! We forgot to thrown in pasts on the other characters to make them relate!
Some other Square Writer: I know, we can explain all of their backgrounds in ONE REALLY BIG CRAPPY SCENE!
Square Writer: But uh... how will they be connected?
Other Writer: I know! We'll pick random cliches out of a hat.
*Picks out of hat*
Square Writer: Hmm... We could orphans.
Other Writer: Cool, make up some crap why they couldn't remember it and throw this cliche in a huge scene after the bombing, I mean we where looking to put something there anyway.

Yeah... That sums up why I hate it so.
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: can i call you moldy boko?!:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

No you can't call him moldy boko. You should learn to not get so mad about such trivial matters. I completely agree with you Boko.
first of all i dont find it to be trivial, (some would say "dont take it so seriously!" but so what) but that isnt the point. if he expressed that he didnt like it in a sensible manner, no problem...however TRYING to totally make a mockery of something (like he did) is just plain irritating.
anyway, he would have to be a sensitive soul to be upset about that.


Of course I made a mockery of it, I find the entire thing to be a mockery in general. But in general though I feel I just made an exaggeration of the truth. The entire thing did seem very thrown together at the last moment, very cliche, and like something just put in there because they needed something to fill a gap.


In general all I can say though is...

:quina:I DO WANT! You got problem?:quina:

[BlackMage2007]

I Thought It Took To Long!

If They Shortened It Down I Would Have Been Happy It Just Seems Like Im Tapping The X Key And Walking Around Pointlessly For ABOUT 20 FRIGGIN MINUTES! lol!


I Did Find It Cute Though!

But I Was So Eager To Get To The Best Part In The Game

BALAMB GARDEN VS GALBADIA GARDEN

[MJN SEIFER]

I understand the intentions of the dialog. My point is that the scene doesn’t indicate anything in particular beyond Squall having perhaps heard the name before to someone who is playing the game for the first time.That is the beuty of FF games, at least most of them especially this one, you don't get everthing the first time.

I don't know how many people do this, but I often had more than one saves at a time, I would get so far with my first save and when I got stuck, I would either take a break with another game, or I would start this game at the begining on another save, to (a) enjoy the game threw up to the point where I got stuck, (b) See if I missed anything and (c) see if by some flute, I could be stronger by the time I got to that point and continue there.

When on my main save I saw the orphange scene, I was facinated, it was one of thoes moments where I could have just shouted OMFG (In full) there and then. I contiued a bit and (I can't remember if I got stuck, or just decided to) I stopped with this save and looked though some of my older ones, to see if anything linked up or hinted to this moment, the mention of Edea's name was the first I noticed, that's probably why I was able to explain it better than the other ones, as it was the first and I've had time, it's easier to explain, because it is easier to understand.
But none of that changes the fact that said the scene fails to foreshadow the orphanage scene itself, because in order to understand it's significance within the plot you have to have foreknowledge of the direction the plot will take. It's not really good enough for a story to only leave incredibly vague musings that could be taken any which way as the sole means of foreshadowing the games most (or second most, depending on how you look at it) prominent plot twist.

as I said, it's more of a hint, you need to know it's forshadowing.

[Cool Revolutionary]

first of all i dont find it to be trivial, (some would say "dont take it so seriously!" but so what) but that isnt the point. if he expressed that he didnt like it in a sensible manner, no problem...however TRYING to totally make a mockery of something (like he did) is just plain irritating.
He wasn't trying to make a total mockery of it. He did make a total mockery of it. Though it wasn't really a mockery. More like the truth.
"good one boko" :confused: is it? i thought it was a bit pathetic, kind of like in the silly way youve changed my name on the quote there. in fact it is pathetic, but to you being boko's "biggest fan" it must of seemed great. dont send him to many fan e-mails.:rolleyes2
no, i said trying because he did only try.
the post he made looked like it was written by a 8 year old, and didnt make any sense. so he didnt succeed.

[f f freak]

first of all i dont find it to be trivial, (some would say "dont take it so seriously!" but so what) but that isnt the point. if he expressed that he didnt like it in a sensible manner, no problem...however TRYING to totally make a mockery of something (like he did) is just plain irritating.
He wasn't trying to make a total mockery of it. He did make a total mockery of it. Though it wasn't really a mockery. More like the truth.
"good one boko" :confused: is it? i thought it was a bit pathetic, kind of like in the silly way youve changed my name on the quote there. in fact it is pathetic, but to you being boko's "biggest fan" it must of seemed great. dont send him to many fan e-mails.:rolleyes2
no, i said trying because he did only try.
the post he made looked like it was written by a 8 year old, and didnt make any sense. so he didnt succeed.

No. He succeeded. You're just too infatuated with the game to notice what he said is completely true. And yes I am a fan of Boko. His Playin' threads are comical genius. Although the rubbish that comes out of your mouth is quite funny as well. And I don't send him e-mails. In fact I doubt i'm his biggest fan. He has many.
And I'll tell you what's really pathetic. You trying to defend your little scene. Go ahead and try.

[Cool Revolutionary]

first of all i dont find it to be trivial, (some would say "dont take it so seriously!" but so what) but that isnt the point. if he expressed that he didnt like it in a sensible manner, no problem...however TRYING to totally make a mockery of something (like he did) is just plain irritating.
He wasn't trying to make a total mockery of it. He did make a total mockery of it. Though it wasn't really a mockery. More like the truth.
"good one boko" :confused: is it? i thought it was a bit pathetic, kind of like in the silly way youve changed my name on the quote there. in fact it is pathetic, but to you being boko's "biggest fan" it must of seemed great. dont send him to many fan e-mails.:rolleyes2
no, i said trying because he did only try.
the post he made looked like it was written by a 8 year old, and didnt make any sense. so he didnt succeed.

No. He succeeded. You're just too infatuated with the game to notice what he said is completely true. And yes I am a fan of Boko. His Playin' threads are comical genius. Although the rubbish that comes out of your mouth is quite funny as well. And I don't send him e-mails. In fact I doubt i'm his biggest fan. He has many.
And I'll tell you what's really pathetic. You trying to defend your little scene. Go ahead and try.
you think i need to defend something against idiots like you?
i dont care if you dont like it, your loss if you dont appreciate it. i only pointed out irritation i felt by his childish post. what he said is completely true? so he was in square when they written the script?
its not completely true if it was completely true it'd be fact. its his opinion. square didnt make an announcement saying "we screwed up the plot guys!" its only his view on the matter its not completely true.
and please stop kissin bokos butt, youll even make him sick eventually.
and...well im glad you find my rubbish funny
because im finding yours boring.
please....back to subject.

[f f freak]

first of all i dont find it to be trivial, (some would say "dont take it so seriously!" but so what) but that isnt the point. if he expressed that he didnt like it in a sensible manner, no problem...however TRYING to totally make a mockery of something (like he did) is just plain irritating.
He wasn't trying to make a total mockery of it. He did make a total mockery of it. Though it wasn't really a mockery. More like the truth.
"good one boko" :confused: is it? i thought it was a bit pathetic, kind of like in the silly way youve changed my name on the quote there. in fact it is pathetic, but to you being boko's "biggest fan" it must of seemed great. dont send him to many fan e-mails.:rolleyes2
no, i said trying because he did only try.
the post he made looked like it was written by a 8 year old, and didnt make any sense. so he didnt succeed.

No. He succeeded. You're just too infatuated with the game to notice what he said is completely true. And yes I am a fan of Boko. His Playin' threads are comical genius. Although the rubbish that comes out of your mouth is quite funny as well. And I don't send him e-mails. In fact I doubt i'm his biggest fan. He has many.
And I'll tell you what's really pathetic. You trying to defend your little scene. Go ahead and try.
you think i need to defend something against idiots like you?
i dont care if you dont like it, your loss if you dont appreciate it. i only pointed out irritation i felt by his childish post. what he said is completely true? so he was in square when they written the script?
its not completely true if it was completely true it'd be fact. its his opinion. square didnt make an announcement saying "we screwed up the plot guys!" its only his view on the matter its not completely true.
and please stop kissin bokos butt, youll even make him sick eventually.
and...well im glad you find my rubbish funny
because im finding yours boring.
please....back to subject.

I find it incredibly difficult to kiss someone's butt when I have no idea where they live. And I fail to see how we are the idiots. You're the one getting all angry because someone stated their opinion. Please follow your own advice. You were the one to go off topic first.

[Goldenboko]

What the hell? How did this thread turn into a huge hate thread?

I used a little term called Exaggeration (http://m-w.com/dictionary/Exaggeration), to take something that was partly true, make it a bit funny, and support my argument.




I hated it. Big time.

Basically the entire idea the orphanage was...

Square Writer: OH CRAP! We forgot to thrown in pasts on the other characters to make them relate!
Some other Square Writer: I know, we can explain all of their backgrounds in ONE REALLY BIG CRAPPY SCENE!
Square Writer: But uh... how will they be connected?
Other Writer: I know! We'll pick random cliches out of a hat.
*Picks out of hat*
Square Writer: Hmm... We could orphans.
Other Writer: Cool, make up some crap why they couldn't remember it and throw this cliche in a huge scene after the bombing, I mean we where looking to put something there anyway.

Yeah... That sums up why I hate it so.
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: can i call you moldy boko?!:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Only if I could call you Crappy Conventional.

That was just suppose to be sarcasm. I know you've heard of it. Sarcasm can by funny, f f freak, probably thought it was funny, so she continued the joke.

How my post looked like it was made by an 8-year old, I don't know how your getting, especially when your responses look like this.



you think i need to defend something against idiots like you?
i dont care if you dont like it, your loss if you dont appreciate it. i only pointed out irritation i felt by his childish post. what he said is completely true? so he was in square when they written the script?
its not completely true if it was completely true it'd be fact. its his opinion. square didnt make an announcement saying "we screwed up the plot guys!" its only his view on the matter its not completely true.
and please stop kissin bokos butt, youll even make him sick eventually.
and...well im glad you find my rubbish funny
because im finding yours boring.
please....back to subject.

f f freak was asking you to support your argument on how the orphanage scene was a piece of good writing. That's it, nothing personal, and you wouldn't have taken it that way if you would just realize this is a forum. There are many different opinions here, and they're not always going to agree, thats why forums are made, so people debate and make arguments, defend arguments, and perhaps learn a little on what they think...

Now please stop with the off topic flaming, everyone.

[Cool Revolutionary]

I Thought It Took To Long!

If They Shortened It Down I Would Have Been Happy It Just Seems Like Im Tapping The X Key And Walking Around Pointlessly For ABOUT 20 FRIGGIN MINUTES! lol!


I Did Find It Cute Though!

But I Was So Eager To Get To The Best Part In The Game

BALAMB GARDEN VS GALBADIA GARDEN
my favourite part in the game too! the orphanage, then battle of the gardens make the last part of disc 2 spectacular!






first of all i dont find it to be trivial, (some would say "dont take it so seriously!" but so what) but that isnt the point. if he expressed that he didnt like it in a sensible manner, no problem...however TRYING to totally make a mockery of something (like he did) is just plain irritating.
He wasn't trying to make a total mockery of it. He did make a total mockery of it. Though it wasn't really a mockery. More like the truth.
"good one boko" :confused: is it? i thought it was a bit pathetic, kind of like in the silly way youve changed my name on the quote there. in fact it is pathetic, but to you being boko's "biggest fan" it must of seemed great. dont send him to many fan e-mails.:rolleyes2
no, i said trying because he did only try.
the post he made looked like it was written by a 8 year old, and didnt make any sense. so he didnt succeed.

No. He succeeded. You're just too infatuated with the game to notice what he said is completely true. And yes I am a fan of Boko. His Playin' threads are comical genius. Although the rubbish that comes out of your mouth is quite funny as well. And I don't send him e-mails. In fact I doubt i'm his biggest fan. He has many.
And I'll tell you what's really pathetic. You trying to defend your little scene. Go ahead and try.
you think i need to defend something against idiots like you?
i dont care if you dont like it, your loss if you dont appreciate it. i only pointed out irritation i felt by his childish post. what he said is completely true? so he was in square when they written the script?
its not completely true if it was completely true it'd be fact. its his opinion. square didnt make an announcement saying "we screwed up the plot guys!" its only his view on the matter its not completely true.
and please stop kissin bokos butt, youll even make him sick eventually.
and...well im glad you find my rubbish funny
because im finding yours boring.
please....back to subject.

I find it incredibly difficult to kiss someone's butt when I have no idea where they live. And I fail to see how we are the idiots. You're the one getting all angry because someone stated their opinion. Please follow your own advice. You were the one to go off topic first.
i went off topic with reason....lets leave it at that so i can have a nice thread.

[Goldenboko]

You did? I didn't know insulting someone counted as a good reason.

I stated my opinion in a way I found comical. Then I made a joke to one of your comments, if anything you should be apologizing for not accepting an opinion.

[f f freak]

Personally I hate the Orphanage scene and was one of the things that made me dislike this game even more. I was constantly mashing X to get through it quicker so I could get to The Battle of Gardens, One of the few bits I liked of this game.

[rubah]

you know, I'm playing through the assassination part again, and while they're walking out to take up their posts, irvine is all questioning squall on whether SeeDs are supposed to kill enemies, regardless of how evil the SeeD might personally think they are.


"So like. . . if you knew that your enemies were pure evil, you'd get more fired up to fight them, right?"

"An enemy that is pure evil?
Right and wrong are not what separate us and our enemies, It's our different standpoints, our perspectives that separate us.
Both sides blame one another. There's no good or bad side. Just 2 sides holding different views."

Squall gets caught up in his thoughts on the ambiguity of morality while Irvine is starting to have some serious doubts on whether or not he should kill his mother figure

[Future Esthar]

I think it´s obvious that the game tries hard to hint the orphanage.See for example Irvy´s behavior just after he joins.

[Ryushikaze]

I think it´s obvious that the game tries hard to hint the orphanage.See for example Irvy´s behavior just after he joins.

You mean hitting on Selphie and Rinoa? Or how about his melodrama about being a gunslinger. What about his behavior hints towards the orphanage?

[Future Esthar]

yep.Anyway I don´t wanna start a discussion here.

[MJN SEIFER]

I think it´s obvious that the game tries hard to hint the orphanage.See for example Irvy´s behavior just after he joins.

i was wondering when (and hoping) you'd join the descusion (sp?)

[Future Esthar]

I have a lot of opinions but can´t post here.Mods forbid me to post theories on others threads.And they are right.

[MJN SEIFER]

You can still post them in their own threads though?