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View Full Version : The morality of XII is flawed - Spoilers - my rant



Renmiri
06-27-2007, 08:13 PM
I think I finally figured out what puts me off about the XII story. And I don't think I'm the only one. I see a lot of people playing the game excited then having their enthusiasm deflated around the time they get to Mosphoran Highwaste.

The Highwaste mission is right after what was unforgivable to me, ruining all claims of "realism" of the story: Attack on a refugee camp (Mt. Bur Omisace) and murder of a religious figure treated as "business as usual" not only by the bad guys but by our own party!!!. Sure X had the destruction of Kilika but at least there's a tiny scene / plot where Wakka and the others are helping reconstruct the village and Yuna is bringing comfort to the dead. In XII it's like "oh, Anastasis and the refugees died to buy me time to get the sword ? Great job, see ya later suckers!"

I don't want to spoil it but there is only one single scene where someone from the outside tries to help the survivors, we actually only see a single Viera worried about them on the Fafnir hunt.

In real life, even one as smurfed up as ours, the bombing of a refugee camp and the murder of someone as high as Anastasis (the pope ?) would have been a big scandal and there surely would be people helping out. Neither one of our 3 "good royals" cared enough to do so. The game ends and there still no mention of Rozarria, Archades or Dalmasca helping the survivors.

And Anastasis isn't the only one that gives his life to help our party and gets a "see ya later" for his troubled community in return Reddas dies and no one in our party goes to help his friends keep Balfonheim port as he had it, which means it will probably going to fall in the hands of Reddas haters

All in all, it is full of examples of people giving their blood, sweat and tears to the royals in the hope that the prince or princess might be good people and rule wisely. A very servile / peasant POV the I hate. Serfdom has already caused enough trouble and injustice in real life.

The morality of XII is seriously flawed IMHO, which wasn't the case in previous FFs.

Formalhaut
06-27-2007, 08:21 PM
Agree, They are saving Dalmasca they say but whilst oing that they are leaving lots of people left to die.

Yeah, thats SAVING now is it.


:eek:I got spoiled! Oh dont worry Renmiri, you wont get told off by me..:eek:

f f freak
06-27-2007, 08:28 PM
I haven't got that far in the game but I'm up to Mosphoran but I think you have to understand that maybe 1000 lives is better than the amount of lives that could have been taken. The party didn't have time to grieve. If they had of stayed around then chances are a whole lot more lives would have been taken.

Renmiri
06-27-2007, 08:35 PM
That's understandable but afterwards, when they aren't in a hurry, there is no effort whatsoever, not even a token scene on the final credits. And Anastasis was not the only one.

Reddas and the twin brothers are perhaps the only moral characters in the game. :mad:

Hazzard
06-27-2007, 08:50 PM
I can't be bothered to argue with Ren's points, but The 'Wolf' will certainly challenge ya'!

The Summoner of Leviathan
06-27-2007, 08:58 PM
One could argue that there was not much the royal houses can do.

Al-Cid? If Rozarria had tried to help them, then the Archadian empire would have used that as an excuse to attack them, saying that they were planning an assault.

Larsa? It was his own country that attacked. If he petitioned to help the refugees which they had cause the harm to, it would mean going against Vayne. Also, would the refugees even want help from Archades after what they did?

Ashe? She is queen in exile, so all she could do is move on with her goal. Surely they could have helped out after she returned from the Shrine, which would have been the right thing. Then again she is only a young ruler who's kingdom was taken from her and she seems to be a stubborn one, so most likely she would continue to move on with her quest. I will agree that her and co. should have helped at the time, with something but there was not much they could do either.

Bolivar
06-27-2007, 09:37 PM
I will agree that her and co. should have helped at the time, with something but there was not much they could do either.

I kinda agree with that. It was a tragedy, but that place was already a mess to begin with, a few more dead bodies really didn't make a difference, these people were already down on their luck from the start.

But I gotta agree, in past games there would have been at least one character who would have tried to help these people and rebuild. In VI, you have one character so moved by the destruction that she gives up the fight to care for others. X has the team help Kilika as you said Ren.

Ashe seemed cold and selfish throughout the entire game, so the fact that they kept it moving doesn't surprise me. I think that's the point of the developers - in an interview one said that the playable characters aren't necessarily good and the antagonists aren't necessarily evil.

Vivisteiner
06-27-2007, 11:02 PM
What about Vossler as well?

Ashe doesnt even mention him after he dies. Despite all the time he helped her.



Im waiting for the wolf's answer.

Renmiri
06-27-2007, 11:12 PM
I will agree that her and co. should have helped at the time, with something but there was not much they could do either.

I kinda agree with that. It was a tragedy, but that place was already a mess to begin with, a few more dead bodies really didn't make a difference

Just talk to the NPC before and after the attack. Before they are all hopeful for a new chance, after is "mommy, mommy, wake up, talk to me!!"

The NPC dialogue goes to great lengths to show their ghastly fate then poof! no one cares. Not even a token end credits scene about it. Same for the intrigue at Balfonheim which will probably turn out bad since Reddas is gone. All that the 3 royals seem to care is their post as rulers. You can even make the case that Vaynes' aim was much nobler (though his means sucked).

Vivisteiner
06-27-2007, 11:26 PM
But why do the party have to be good?


There are subtle references that show that they may not be good. Eg, notice how the airships of the Archadians are called Shiva, Ifrit, Bahamut etc. All generally 'good' summons that help the party. Whereas the resistance has an airship called 'Garland'. Who is evil in FFI and FFIX. There could be something in it - that the resistance can also be seen as 'bad'.


Heh, I just thought of that arguments now, so Im not sure if it stands up.

Certainly Ashe seems pretty selfish at times.

PeneloRatsbane
06-27-2007, 11:28 PM
when Vossler died i did find myself disliking Ashe, i think it was meant to show that she needed the journey and the adventure to grow into a suitable queen, so she could learn not to be such a frosty cow, she wasn't ready yet. But by the end she's learnt to care for people again and was ready to take her thrown

No.78
06-27-2007, 11:36 PM
Didn't you say something about buying time? Why would you stop and grieve if all that time bought was just gonna be wasted?
Not everyone is as emotional as that "Oh crap, they all died, lets mourn them for ages, that's productive" They didn't have time for that. Besides, they probably did mourn it, FFXII isn't exactly famous for it's indepth storyline and character development, all that stuff probably did happen we just didn't see it.

EDIT: Besides, most of the party is British, it's the Americans that are emotional :D Vaan and Penelo were outnumbered.

Bolivar
06-28-2007, 01:30 AM
Eg, notice how the airships of the Archadians are called Shiva, Ifrit, Bahamut etc. All generally 'good' summons that help the party. Whereas the resistance has an airship called 'Garland'.

YES. Matter of fact, it's the FLAGSHIP of the resistance that's called "Garland" who's probably most representative character in Final Fantasy of darkness. good insight, that's 100% true, and if anything, this game is known for its effort put into the subtleties.

really the only person on the team with noble intentions is Basch, everyone else is motivated by selfish reasons.

PeneloRatsbane
06-28-2007, 12:46 PM
i say if u want morals go to church.
what could Vaan and Penelo really do?
Ashe has issues, Basch is just one man
and Fran and Balthier are hired help,
But i'm sure Ashe will sort things out when she's queen. She should marry al cid to prevent trouble between Rozarria and Dalmasca and Larsa is a trustworthy leader anyway. they can start fixing things

10-Breaker
06-28-2007, 04:10 PM
Eg, notice how the airships of the Archadians are called Shiva, Ifrit, Bahamut etc. All generally 'good' summons that help the party. Whereas the resistance has an airship called 'Garland'.

YES. Matter of fact, it's the FLAGSHIP of the resistance that's called "Garland" who's probably most representative character in Final Fantasy of darkness. good insight, that's 100% true, and if anything, this game is known for its effort put into the subtleties.

They are just ships! Ships are to be controlled. The one who controls decides are the they bad or good. No matter what their names are they are just ships. Summons too can be used to good or bad. They are just loyal servants of their masters.
Garland isn't a summon, but it's just a name for a ship this time.

EDIT: SqEn is getting out of ideas since so much names from previous games.

Vivisteiner
06-28-2007, 05:24 PM
^But its possible that that subtle touch was added to signify that the resistance isnt necessarily good. If Matsuno wanted to portray the resistance as heroic, why on earth would they call its flagship Garland? - A villain in FF1 and FFIX.


+Shiva, Ifrit are usually summoned by the main party - which is good.

Renmiri
06-28-2007, 06:03 PM
Those are good points. Ondorre himself is a bit of an ambiguous figure.

There were a couple of noble heroic figures in the game but with the exception of Basch and Balthier they died because of it. Reddas, Drace, Gabranth, Anastasis, Zargabaath

PS: I can't believe I'm finding a reason to like Baltier! ;)

Bolivar
06-28-2007, 08:12 PM
They are just ships! Ships are to be controlled. The one who controls decides are the they bad or good. No matter what their names are they are just ships. Summons too can be used to good or bad. They are just loyal servants of their masters.
Garland isn't a summon, but it's just a name for a ship this time.

EDIT: SqEn is getting out of ideas since so much names from previous games.

You are absolutely correct, that's one way to interpret this - that there is no interpretation and that the name's are meaningless.

Ours is another interpretation, and we didn't say we're 100% correct, merely that it may allude to something. So no need to get cynical.

But I did say that, if anything, FFXII is game with ALOT of effort put into its subtleties. Do you agree or disagree with this statement?

Vivisteiner
06-28-2007, 09:31 PM
^I agree. Almost the complete opposite of X.


Those are good points. Ondorre himself is a bit of an ambiguous figure.

There were a couple of noble heroic figures in the game but with the exception of Basch and Balthier they died because of it. Reddas, Drace, Gabranth, Anastasis, Zargabaath

PS: I can't believe I'm finding a reason to like Baltier! ;)

Zargabaath doesnt die!

I find it ironic that the Judges - out of all the characters that you meet, are some of the most noble. However, we dont really know enough about them. Balthier himself said that they were 'more like executioners'.

Wolf Kanno
06-29-2007, 08:32 AM
Well here is my :twocents: ...

Now Summoner of Leviathan and No. 78 both bring up points that I agree upon. Most of the parties involved can't exactly help due to either lack of power or political reasons.

The only people who speak about the attack are a few wondering NPC's in certain campsite and a few people in Rabanastre and I think Bhujerba though the memory is a little foggy about Bhujerba... The traverlers decide to find new sanctuary cause they were headed to Mt. Burimasce to seek safe haven from the conflict. The city dwellers are scared to death that the Holy Temple was attacked and conclude that no place is safe from Archadia.

This just proves how Ivalice is placed in a time period similiar to the age of empires in Europe and Eurasia when "might is right" is the only law. No one can help them cause they fear the empire will strike them down or they are seriously just indifferent to the whole situation (just like Spira was indifferent to Seymour killing the Ronso in FFX;) ).

From a historical perspective, I feel the situation played out rather accurately. Don't forget the Romans were known to punish the death of a soldier in foreign regions by gathering all the local villages and making them watch as the Romans kill every man, woman, child, and animal in the town where the incedent took place or was close to the incedent in question. Rome at the time was on a cultural level almost on par with todays just like Ivalice shares many similarities with our time as they do the ancient kingdoms of old. Since this team is known for their love of history it doesn't come as a surprise that they would use a more historical look of how the situation is played out rather than a modern day one. Especially since a modern day solution wouldn't make sense considering how the kingdoms were set up.

You have to remember that public out cry means nothing in a government system where the powers that be can call on the military to quell the rebellion. It's not like Vayne or Al-Cid can be elected out of office. The best the people can hope for is that the rulers make their lives easier. It's just how things were back then. Though I agree the actions taken were pretty heartless, I also accept that this is just portraying a truth to our own bloody history. Kingdoms and empires were created on the corpses and bones of people.

But alas, you seriously down play the whole Rejt and Fafnir story arc. Before the imperial attack, the refugees are coming to the Holy Temple to seek shelter from the conflicts between rebel forces and imperial troops. The Temple is swarmed and mentions how they are having difficulty trying to keep up with the surge of pilgrims. The attack happens and the place is resorted to a burnt out shell where children cry for their momies to wake up and the injured scream in anguish while the survivng temple priest mourn the passing of their spiritual leader. The peaceful Holy music is replaced with a somber and melancholy musical piece.

Rejt the Viera, spends both periods contemplating the futility of the world of the humes while arguing with a caring priest. Eventually, Fafnir breaks out of his bondage and begins to ravage the mountain. The priest, though inadequately prepared, set off to stop the creature and protect the few survivors (who by this time are basically talking about how they are waiting to die). Of course the priest are never heard from again but their Mark post brings your party back. Rejt explains the situation, still trying to figure out why the priest would bother to protect people who gave up on themselves.

The party proceeds to battle the obnoxious Fafnir and eventually succeed. Rejt in this time finally figures out the meaning behind placing something before yourself and why it's important. She decides to help the temple due to her knowledge of healing medicine. The music changes to a soft but more hopeful piece of music and the general atmosphere has changed. Rejt has inspired the refugees to help themselves and many decide to stay and rebuild the place that took them in. Even the monks become inspired from Rejt's example and their mourning ceases as they begin to help rebuild the temple.

If Mt. Burimasce is mentioned in RW, I wouldn't be surprised if Rejt has been chosen to become the new Grand Kiltias;)

I feel Burimasce acts as a parallel to the belief that one must learn to stand on your own feet. The scenario presented to the player after the Fafnir fight alludes to the player that it's going to be alright. I'm sorry the game doesn't give some feedback on how the world is shaping up for you but I feel the game actually gives enough hints to tell you how everything worked out. I know you hate this ascpect of XII's storytelling but you'll have to make due with what you got dear;)

WritinginaRedState
06-29-2007, 06:58 PM
With all due respect to those who did enjoy XII's brand of storytelling, I do feel that they used the "hints" thing too much. While all the games do hint at particular outcomes to scenarios, I feel that XII does it too often and on scenarios that should definately have been fleshed out. It seemed to me they left things purposefully vague to make up for rather weak characterization. They can't explain why people act the way they do (I believe most everyone has a reason for doing something regardless of the situation), so they leave it up to the player to make those decisions. I guess it's a personal taste.

I play RPGs like I read books. I want to know why the characters think and act the way they do. When an action does not match past actions I want a reason, whether it be a past experience or something else.

To me, it would be like a hateful person sitting down next to me and proceeding to initiate a pleasant conversation. Why are they speaking to me nicely and not everyone else? Are they more friendly with people my sex because of bad experiences with a parent? Do they just have mood swings? I don't know. When someone who is hateful starts acting extremely pleasant there is a reason.

All Final Fantasies use these "hints", but, to my knowledge, none of them use that system when dealing with important character aspects. We know why Tidus hated his father, we knew why Vivi acted so odd and quirky. I think it comes down to one thing: whether you need to feel "connected" to your characters. I need to in order to enjoy a game. Why should I want these people to succeed when I know so little about them?

Renmiri
06-29-2007, 07:34 PM
Why should I want these people to succeed when I know so little about them?

QFT!

And also, why should I help them if they don't help anybody ? Ashe got al lthe power she was seeking, so did Larsa. Why didn't they help Mt. Bur Omisace, or later Reddas town ?

I hate that aspect of the game: they went to great lengths to show the cruelty that happened in Bur-Omisace but then are content on a passing little scene on a hunt to show it's end ?

PS: Yeah Zargabaath didn't need to sacrifice himself because someone else did Balthier. I guess he is one of the noble figures.

Vivisteiner
06-29-2007, 09:53 PM
And also, why should I help them if they don't help anybody ? Ashe got al lthe power she was seeking, so did Larsa. Why didn't they help Mt. Bur Omisace, or later Reddas town ?
I would generally complete the game in order to see the plot unfold. The characters you control dont have to be noble IMO for you to have motivation to 'help them.'

Ashe is certainly a strange and interesting character. Sometimes she seems like she wants to help her people, sometimes she seems selfish. What I seem to have gathered is that Ashe wants the best for the people of her own Kingdom, and she cares little for people from other kingdoms. Dalmasca definitely comes first to her, and she is probably extremely right wing in believing that people can help themselves. Wolf Kanno made the good point that in ancient times, moral values on subjects such a these were very different.


I hate that aspect of the game: they went to great lengths to show the cruelty that happened in Bur-Omisace but then are content on a passing little scene on a hunt to show it's end ?

Perhaps the game fails to illustrate any helping because it occured at a later date, a while after Dalmasca was restored. But I still agree that a scene should have been shown, unless if it was ommited for a reason. (As Ive discussed before)



My greatest disappointment with FFXII was that the humanitarian aspects were played down too much. It weakens the plot, although I would still contest that the plot is intriguing. A more humanitarian side can be viewed upon repeat though. Statements which made little sense first time through, become understandable and help you to empathise. I noticed this especially for Balthier. But there should have definitely been more cutscenes though.

Renmiri
06-29-2007, 10:54 PM
And also, why should I help them if they don't help anybody ? Ashe got al lthe power she was seeking, so did Larsa. Why didn't they help Mt. Bur Omisace, or later Reddas town ?
I would generally complete the game in order to see the plot unfold.

I did. There is not even a cutscene with Bur Omisace or Balfonheim. Like it wasn't there at all. but they made a point to show Ashe got back her ring :mad:

Vivisteiner
06-29-2007, 11:07 PM
^Maybe they'll deal with it in Renevant Wings?

Renmiri
06-30-2007, 12:17 AM
^Maybe they'll deal with it in Renevant Wings?
I hope!

But seriously, like WK says, the wounded probably ended up taking care of themselves or dying, we can assume what we like and move on. Not like they are real wounded people....

I just object to the way the story was told: 2 hours spent on showing their misery and 1 minute showing them (maybe) getting some help from a Viera. Same on Reddas town, though less dramatic, since we don't see Reddas enemies taking over.

Bolivar
06-30-2007, 01:20 AM
i think ashe doesn't give a damn about anybody, and that she's motivated purely be revenge, from the loss of her father, her husband, and her birthright. Don't get me wrong, i think she becomes a good queen at the end but only after she learned to let go of her hatred. Or not, maybe she'll try to be the HBIC and start a whole new war. I really want to get Revenant Wings.

Swan
06-30-2007, 08:51 AM
I spose you do have some points. It was unrealistic I suppose, as the main characters seem to be compassionate (Basch and Ashe moreso) and yet they did very little to fix these issues. But if you think it's actually upsetting that they don't do these things, then I think you take the plot a little too seriously.

PeneloRatsbane
06-30-2007, 01:21 PM
I like how when it comes down to it right at the end, it is the two shady, runaway, outcast pirates that are the true hero's who save Rabanastre.
Not the Future Queen or the brave knight, or even the two inhabitents of Rabanastre.
I know that they're the mechanics so it makes sence, but they bravely risk their lives to save the day.

Renmiri
06-30-2007, 08:36 PM
I spose you do have some points. It was unrealistic I suppose, as the main characters seem to be compassionate (Basch and Ashe moreso) and yet they did very little to fix these issues. But if you think it's actually upsetting that they don't do these things, then I think you take the plot a little too seriously.

Oh no, I liked the game. And it is after all just fantasy. I'm just pointing out the stuff I didn't like about it.


I like how when it comes down to it right at the end, it is the two shady, runaway, outcast pirates that are the true hero's who save Rabanastre.
Not the Future Queen or the brave knight, or even the two inhabitents of Rabanastre.
I know that they're the mechanics so it makes sense, but they bravely risk their lives to save the day.
QFT!

It is a very interesting twist. It seems the "common folk" are much nobler than the royals on XII. They should rebel and get rid of monarchy :p

Vivisteiner
06-30-2007, 11:29 PM
^Thats a given.

Thats one thing I like about this game. It doesnt portray the monarchy as 'good' or 'right'.

Final Fantasys can go quite deep. FFX showed how religion can be corrupt, FFXII how monarchy can be corrupt. What will FFXIII show?

Bolivar
07-01-2007, 02:40 AM
^Thats a given.

Thats one thing I like about this game. It doesnt portray the monarchy as 'good' or 'right'.

Final Fantasys can go quite deep. FFX showed how religion can be corrupt, FFXII how monarchy can be corrupt. What will FFXIII show?

alot of crazy sh*t apparently

Wolf Kanno
07-01-2007, 08:26 AM
With all due respect to those who did enjoy XII's brand of storytelling, I do feel that they used the "hints" thing too much. While all the games do hint at particular outcomes to scenarios, I feel that XII does it too often and on scenarios that should definately have been fleshed out. It seemed to me they left things purposefully vague to make up for rather weak characterization. They can't explain why people act the way they do (I believe most everyone has a reason for doing something regardless of the situation), so they leave it up to the player to make those decisions. I guess it's a personal taste.

I play RPGs like I read books. I want to know why the characters think and act the way they do. When an action does not match past actions I want a reason, whether it be a past experience or something else.

To me, it would be like a hateful person sitting down next to me and proceeding to initiate a pleasant conversation. Why are they speaking to me nicely and not everyone else? Are they more friendly with people my sex because of bad experiences with a parent? Do they just have mood swings? I don't know. When someone who is hateful starts acting extremely pleasant there is a reason.

All Final Fantasies use these "hints", but, to my knowledge, none of them use that system when dealing with important character aspects. We know why Tidus hated his father, we knew why Vivi acted so odd and quirky. I think it comes down to one thing: whether you need to feel "connected" to your characters. I need to in order to enjoy a game. Why should I want these people to succeed when I know so little about them?

I generally don't mind "hints" that lead to specualtion but I feel this is due to the realism of it. In real life, things don't neatly wrap themselves up, people are cruel or even kind for no real reason, and most events in life are always shrouded with mystery. It's due to this belief that I can give XII more slack. I only hate specualtive elements in a plot if I feel it conflicts with logic. I don't feel XII did this very much so I'm more forgiving than normal.

But I do agree with you that XII definetly pushed it a little too far. I personally would have loved to see more about the Judges, Balthier, Archadian government, Al-Cid, and more political intrigue. I love this team, but this was definetly their weakest (storywise) of their games. Perhaps Matsuo's departure mid production played in all this but we will never know I'm afraid...



Why should I want these people to succeed when I know so little about them?

QFT!

And also, why should I help them if they don't help anybody ? Ashe got all the power she was seeking, so did Larsa. Why didn't they help Mt. Bur Omisace, or later Reddas town ?

I hate that aspect of the game: they went to great lengths to show the cruelty that happened in Bur-Omisace but then are content on a passing little scene on a hunt to show it's end ?

PS: Yeah Zargabaath didn't need to sacrifice himself because someone else did Balthier. I guess he is one of the noble figures.

Larsa never wanted power and Ashe's personal struggle in the story is to choose power to smite her enemies or try to restore her kingdom. Both were able to save their kingdoms which is all either wanted. Both also averted a massive war between empires saving more lives in the process. I don't feel either could even help the people if they wanted. What with Ashe restoring her kingdom politically and economically and Larsa fixing the mistakes within his own kingdom from his brother's mischief. I'm certain both are more concerned with helping their own people first, since it's their duties as the monarchs of their kingdoms.

As for how they dealt with Bur-Omisace, I felt it was done rather well. I never felt a cutscene would have made it better. I still feel that the scenario can be looked upon as a moral to understand that "God only helps those who help themselves". In a world where "might makes right" (and I'm speaking of Ivalice) it was the best the scenario could have been presented.



And also, why should I help them if they don't help anybody ? Ashe got al lthe power she was seeking, so did Larsa. Why didn't they help Mt. Bur Omisace, or later Reddas town ?
I would generally complete the game in order to see the plot unfold. The characters you control dont have to be noble IMO for you to have motivation to 'help them.'

Ashe is certainly a strange and interesting character. Sometimes she seems like she wants to help her people, sometimes she seems selfish. What I seem to have gathered is that Ashe wants the best for the people of her own Kingdom, and she cares little for people from other kingdoms. Dalmasca definitely comes first to her, and she is probably extremely right wing in believing that people can help themselves. Wolf Kanno made the good point that in ancient times, moral values on subjects such a these were very different.

I feel the "human" element of XII was Lady Ashe's struggle to decide between helping her kingdom or getting revenge and I do feel it played out strongly. So I agree that Lady Ashe is a truly interesting character and I feel it was rather intriguing to see this type of character as a woman. Seriously, the series needs more strong female characters like Lady Ashe.







And also, why should I help them if they don't help anybody ? Ashe got al lthe power she was seeking, so did Larsa. Why didn't they help Mt. Bur Omisace, or later Reddas town ?
I would generally complete the game in order to see the plot unfold.

I did. There is not even a cutscene with Bur Omisace or Balfonheim. Like it wasn't there at all. but they made a point to show Ashe got back her ring :mad:

Hey now Balfoheim is a completely different story. We are talking about a den of pirates and fugitives located in the Archadian empire. Only Larsa can truly help them and the only thing he can do to help them is to ignore them since the main political conflict is the Empires interest in the port city. Besides, Reddas chose to die, not to help Lady Ashe and the party so much as it was for him to redeem himself for his crimes as a judge. It can be argued that Lady Ashe and co. helped both the Holy Temple and Port town by removing Vayne from power and getting revenge for them.


I spose you do have some points. It was unrealistic I suppose, as the main characters seem to be compassionate (Basch and Ashe moreso) and yet they did very little to fix these issues. But if you think it's actually upsetting that they don't do these things, then I think you take the plot a little too seriously.

Most of the party is self-motivated for personal reasons. The one aspect of this game I like is how realistic the party really was compared to previous installments. Everyone has a personal motive and the party is only formed cause they can each use each other to fulfill their own personal goals (though poor Balthier and Fran were never properly compensated... though they did get rid of the bounty hunters and resolved some personal family issues... still I bet they wish they got paid instead.)





^Thats a given.

Thats one thing I like about this game. It doesnt portray the monarchy as 'good' or 'right'.

Final Fantasys can go quite deep. FFX showed how religion can be corrupt, FFXII how monarchy can be corrupt. What will FFXIII show?

alot of crazy sh*t apparently

(In the voice of The Monarch) MECHA SHIVA?!

What little has been released about the plot reveals a combination of both corrupt politics and religion. Though I personally hope it delves more into the ignorance of the masses who let themselves get controlled by such things.:rolleyes2

Bolivar
07-03-2007, 04:25 PM
What little has been released about the plot reveals a combination of both corrupt politics and religion. Though I personally hope it delves more into the ignorance of the masses who let themselves get controlled by such things.:rolleyes2

lol i think that would offend their large american target audience. and we all know Square has a history of that, with xenogears almost not being released, and FFV being deemed as "too complicated" for our simple minds! :choc:

WritinginaRedState
07-03-2007, 11:06 PM
I appreciate the realism of characters, however, unless that character has gone completely insane, they still have some kind of reason. I don't think the real life argument can truly be applied(although you do a fantastic job of applying it). Just because we can't read/hear people's thoughts in real life doesn't mean they don't have a reason for the things they do; they just don't explain them to anyone. As this is a game, I believe it is the writer's duty to at least give us the important aspects.

Karellen
07-04-2007, 04:22 AM
What little has been released about the plot reveals a combination of both corrupt politics and religion. Though I personally hope it delves more into the ignorance of the masses who let themselves get controlled by such things.:rolleyes2

lol i think that would offend their large american target audience. and we all know Square has a history of that, with xenogears almost not being released, and FFV being deemed as "too complicated" for our simple minds! :choc:
They already pretty much did the whole "oppressive religion + ignorant followers" in FFX and FFT. It tends to be that as long as you don't say something blatant like "LOLZ CHRISTIANITY = EVIL" you can get away with it without anyone really dwelling upon it.

Wolf Kanno
07-04-2007, 07:44 AM
What little has been released about the plot reveals a combination of both corrupt politics and religion. Though I personally hope it delves more into the ignorance of the masses who let themselves get controlled by such things.:rolleyes2

lol i think that would offend their large american target audience. and we all know Square has a history of that, with xenogears almost not being released, and FFV being deemed as "too complicated" for our simple minds! :choc:

Nah, the people who would be offended are too obsessed with watching CNN and bugging their politicians to act upon the really "serious issues" like trying to remove or maintain the logo of "In God We Trust" on their currency.;)

Though it's true Japan a bit condenscending towards us. I can't forgive them for Final Fantasy USA (Mystic Quest) myself.:mog:


I appreciate the realism of characters, however, unless that character has gone completely insane, they still have some kind of reason. I don't think the real life argument can truly be applied(although you do a fantastic job of applying it). Just because we can't read/hear people's thoughts in real life doesn't mean they don't have a reason for the things they do; they just don't explain them to anyone. As this is a game, I believe it is the writer's duty to at least give us the important aspects.

I feel most of XII's plot and characters made sense on a logical level. Though I do feel (and Renmiri will chime in when I say this) that this does not extend towards the character of Vayne. I really do feel his character completely fell apart by the time you reach the Bahamut. 90% of the game is him being an ambiguous morally complex character and then you reach Bahamut and he devolves into generic insane world conquering villain. It is one of a few aspects that does bother me about the story.





What little has been released about the plot reveals a combination of both corrupt politics and religion. Though I personally hope it delves more into the ignorance of the masses who let themselves get controlled by such things.:rolleyes2

lol i think that would offend their large american target audience. and we all know Square has a history of that, with xenogears almost not being released, and FFV being deemed as "too complicated" for our simple minds! :choc:
They already pretty much did the whole "oppressive religion + ignorant followers" in FFX and FFT. It tends to be that as long as you don't say something blatant like "LOLZ CHRISTIANITY = EVIL" you can get away with it without anyone really dwelling upon it.

Christianity(hell, religion in general:rolleyes2 ) = EVIL was already strongly alluded to in Xenogears (In fact Xenogears is a game that delves into the subject of the oppression of religion and politics on the masses.) and pretty much blatanly said in Vagrant Story already. ;)

Hell, let's not forget the Shin Megami Tensei series that has the Judeo-Christian god playing the main villain in several of the games. Hell they make the angels under god's order sound worse than the Nazi's :rolleyes2

Of course FF is far more popular than either of these games so I can see the fire storm created by the game pulling something like this. Then again, politicians and the conservatives are more concerened with games like Manhunt and GTA which are more visually adult orientated rather than intellectually mature.

Vivisteiner
07-04-2007, 01:53 PM
I really wish SE would do something like that for FFXIII.

It would be so fun to play.

Bolivar
07-05-2007, 02:38 AM
Ok, well I just revisited this scene again today. I gotta say, it is a little messed up how when asked, Ashe says "we leave at once." Maybe they did kinda turn their back on the kiltias.

but this is all in the midst of a really big phenomenon. "The Rozarrian Invasion" (a phrase you hear bout 50 times in the game!) could be any minute now. Vayne, a military genius, is all for it, and has just mobilized one of the biggest forces Ivalice's ever seen. You also just found out that the manufacted nethicite is much more dangerous than previously thought. And the scene preceding is Bergen explaining that there is a new Dynast-King - Vayne, and he's putting history back in the hands of man (i think this is why the place was wiped out - bergen proving that they do not fear the gods), plus they got psychos like bergen who infused his bones with nethicite.

so there's alot going on and ashe is the only one who can stop it. and at the same time, she's purely motivated by selfish reasons to avenge her husband, her father, and her stolen birthright.

and they do do something, they stay there for a short time to pay their respects, you see them standing outside the temple watching the kiltias pray. so i don't think it's all that bad. maybe ashe was a little cold, but that's her character.

Renmiri
07-05-2007, 10:57 PM
Must have been one of those extra subtle things, I missed that part of them "doing something". But if they were ina hurry then, what about in the end ? The FMV goes into great lengths to show Ashe got her wedding ring back (oh boho!) but not a single scene with the kiltians....

Bolivar
07-05-2007, 11:12 PM
Must have been one of those extra subtle things, I missed that part of them "doing something". But if they were ina hurry then, what about in the end ? The FMV goes into great lengths to show Ashe got her wedding ring back (oh boho!) but not a single scene with the kiltians....

true.

Wolf Kanno
07-06-2007, 08:27 AM
Must have been one of those extra subtle things, I missed that part of them "doing something". But if they were ina hurry then, what about in the end ? The FMV goes into great lengths to show Ashe got her wedding ring back (oh boho!) but not a single scene with the kiltians....

Come now luv, that ring scene lasts a whole 15-20 seconds at most in the ending and it's not like Lady Ashe hasn't been obsessing over her dead husband for a good 90% of the game.:p

Besides I don't remember Yuna helping to console the needs of the butchered Ronso tribe in X. Hell they didn't even get a mention afterwards either;) We had to wait until X-2 to find out what happened to them...

Renmiri
07-06-2007, 10:31 PM
After Sin is defeated and falls you see Gagazet and other areas. And a major plot of X-2 was the Guado massacre of the Ronso and their decision to take revenge or not. There is no such thing on Revenant Wings.

And yes, the game made it perfectly clear that Ashe's sole concern was her dead husband. Although in two of the best lines in the game she shows a bit more depth:

In all of Dalmasca long years of history it has never used the Dawn Shard, this is the Dalmasca I want to preserve
and

The Rassler I knew would not want revenge

I think the problem goes back to the fact the main writer had to leave mid stream. The Bur Omisace plot was left too open, after the story going into pains to show how much misery they received for aiding the team it felt very unfair / amoral. If I was writing it I would have made Bergan just get Larsa and go meet the team at Miriam. There was no need to attack the refugee camp.

Shattered Dreamer
07-06-2007, 11:55 PM
Just was thinking about what everyone was saying about parts of the plot being forgot about & such & just thought doesn't that make the story of FFXII more like life. When its over you probably still won't have the answer.

I think the final FMV features the refugees on Bur Omisace briefly. Just think maybe the Kiltians hadnt found their leader yet even though I sorta though the Veira living on Bur Omisace would have been picked especially after the she acts helping all the refugees after you defeat the hunt Fafnir. Plus what about Fran's sister wanting to leave the wood that wasn't fully resolved either. I guess FFXII story really is like life sometimes little details become unimportant to the grand scheme of things.

But in saying that as a FF fan I was disappointed stuff like this was glossed over. Hey if they had of given us these little bits of info maybe we wouldnt of argued about how weak the main plot is in places.

WritinginaRedState
07-07-2007, 12:23 AM
Well see, the other games in the series left out things without being as detrimental to the plot as does with Final Fantasy XII (in my opinion). I would think it hard to use the more real argument because all of the games had those moments. I don't think "being vague" automatically qualifies as being life-like. I mean, in X, a religion that the whole world put its faith in turned out to be a corrupt evil entity. While the bad guy was beaten, there was still pain, heartache, all VERY real emotions. Heck I cried during the final scene. You see that not everything comes out good.
Relationships with so much potential never come to fruition in FF8, but you see the potential in them, and you want them to succeed. You want those people to be happy.

I saw none of that in XII. I could almost see potential between Ashe and Balthier. Heck, if they had carried that further I would be more satisfied. I just don't think people can be together through all that and just "drift apart" and Penelo so elegantly stated. I thought there was a nice attempt at trying to flesh characters out, but I don't think they quite made it.

This game had SO much potential and wastes it by being vague about important things. I believe that if Matsuno hadn't left we would have seen a very different game.

Bolivar
07-07-2007, 12:43 AM
^indeed, and i realize that alot of our posts have reflected that. In many ways this is "the game that never was" but at the same time I feel calling that is a little cheap because this really is a remarkable work in the medium of videogames, and its significance will increase as the years go on and new Final Fantasys are released.

I guess another point that really struck me this playthrough is how Vossler is just left on the Shiva to die, I think that hits home to me the most about Renmiri's point of this thread. One of his last words is "Everything I've done, I've done for Dalmasca", and despite him just facing and reavealed to have betrayed the party, you have to really admire and sympathize for him. At the same time, the party might not have known that the entire thing was about to blow, but the threadstarter's point still remains that no one of the party showed any remorse about this, nor is he remembered later on. Not even by Basch, which I found most perplexing.

On my second playthrough, I'm really starting to appreciate the scale and meaning of this game, story very much included. Unfortunately, there still are important things missing, lamentably, but it's important for us to accept the good and the bad when evaluating games and their stories, especially a work as important as Final Fantasy XII.

Renmiri
07-07-2007, 06:27 AM
I guess another point that really struck me this playthrough is how Vossler is just left on the Shiva to die,... no one of the party showed any remorse about this, nor is he remembered later on. Not even by Basch, which I found most perplexing.
Yeah, I had forgotten about that but that bothered me too at the time.


...alot of our posts have reflected that. In many ways this is "the game that never was" but at the same time I feel calling that is a little cheap because this really is a remarkable work in the medium of videogames, and its significance will increase as the years go on and new Final Fantasys are released.

On my second playthrough, I'm really starting to appreciate the scale and meaning of this game, story very much included. Unfortunately, there still are important things missing, lamentably, but it's important for us to accept the good and the bad when evaluating games and their stories, especially a work as important as Final Fantasy XII.
Agreed wholeheartedly! I would even say that is the game's success that makes me more picky: some parts of XII have such incredible detail it is obvious it was designed very carefully with a lot of thought and attention put into it, like the battle system, the graphics, the bestiary monsters, the bestiary cards, the world geography... Makes me want the same richness of design and thoughtful process spent on the rest :(

But I've made my peace with the game. It was a great game, just not "perfect for Renmiri" and Square was brave to challenge their own rules of game making.

But next time Square, please keep it simple and go with tradition ? Pretty please ? ;)

Wolf Kanno
07-07-2007, 09:26 AM
After Sin is defeated and falls you see Gagazet and other areas. And a major plot of X-2 was the Guado massacre of the Ronso and their decision to take revenge or not. There is no such thing on Revenant Wings.

And yes, the game made it perfectly clear that Ashe's sole concern was her dead husband. Although in two of the best lines in the game she shows a bit more depth:

In all of Dalmasca long years of history it has never used the Dawn Shard, this is the Dalmasca I want to preserve
and

The Rassler I knew would not want revenge

I think the problem goes back to the fact the main writer had to leave mid stream. The Bur Omisace plot was left too open, after the story going into pains to show how much misery they received for aiding the team it felt very unfair / amoral. If I was writing it I would have made Bergan just get Larsa and go meet the team at Miriam. There was no need to attack the refugee camp.

The scene in question from FFX is a brief scene that never answers the question of whither the Ronso are alright. We see the survivors and nothing more. The story was left to be resolved in a sequel it was not finished within it's original storlyine is my point. Though I doubt RW will touch upon it, I do feel XII will probably get the multi sequel treatment eventually.

As for Ashe I feel she is one of the most complex characters to come out of the series. The main thing that set her apart from most main heroines is that she was not written to be likeable. We understand where she comes from in her thinking but we don't necessarily agree with her. Her story is the "human element" of XII IMHO.

As for Burimasce being left too open, you speak as though it had some remaining plot significance. I fail to see how writing about the glorious resurrection of the temple through the aide of foreign powers; would have been relevant to the story of a rag tag group of warriors trying to prevent a massive war that threatens to destroy what is important to them.

I feel the point of the scene was to show not only the brutality of Vayne's regime but to establish to the player the importance of the parties goal to stop Vayne. The point of the attack though was to stop the Kiltias from announcing the return of Ashe as the rightful heir of Dalmasca. That and to prove the point that any thoughts of dissention and revolt will be dealt with. It's a common tactic in politics to help solidify rule and power. This is especially useful to Vayne who acquired his power through treachery. At least this seems like the logic behind it all.


Just was thinking about what everyone was saying about parts of the plot being forgot about & such & just thought doesn't that make the story of FFXII more like life. When its over you probably still won't have the answer.

I think the final FMV features the refugees on Bur Omisace briefly. Just think maybe the Kiltians hadnt found their leader yet even though I sorta though the Veira living on Bur Omisace would have been picked especially after the she acts helping all the refugees after you defeat the hunt Fafnir. Plus what about Fran's sister wanting to leave the wood that wasn't fully resolved either. I guess FFXII story really is like life sometimes little details become unimportant to the grand scheme of things.

But in saying that as a FF fan I was disappointed stuff like this was glossed over. Hey if they had of given us these little bits of info maybe we wouldnt of argued about how weak the main plot is in places.

I agree that XII's plot feels more like real life in the vein that things don't end up neatly nor is life fair or just. But I too am disappointed with certain ascpects of the story as well, but mostly I feel the good outweighs the bad in my opinion. I think the game is amazing and I get the feeling that it will be a few years down the road before people begin to really see this.


Well see, the other games in the series left out things without being as detrimental to the plot as does with Final Fantasy XII (in my opinion). I would think it hard to use the more real argument because all of the games had those moments. I don't think "being vague" automatically qualifies as being life-like. I mean, in X, a religion that the whole world put its faith in turned out to be a corrupt evil entity. While the bad guy was beaten, there was still pain, heartache, all VERY real emotions. Heck I cried during the final scene. You see that not everything comes out good.
Relationships with so much potential never come to fruition in FF8, but you see the potential in them, and you want them to succeed. You want those people to be happy.

I saw none of that in XII. I could almost see potential between Ashe and Balthier. Heck, if they had carried that further I would be more satisfied. I just don't think people can be together through all that and just "drift apart" and Penelo so elegantly stated. I thought there was a nice attempt at trying to flesh characters out, but I don't think they quite made it.

This game had SO much potential and wastes it by being vague about important things. I believe that if Matsuno hadn't left we would have seen a very different game.

I agree that Matsuo staying on would have made this game quite different and possibly more amazing (I also know we would probably still be waiting for it. The man does not know the word restraint) I remember hearing that the job class system was going to be used and we already know from the special edition trailer that the gambits were far more complexed originally. I do wonder how the story and characters were truly affected by his departure.

It seems to me like you feel XII has a lack of emotional elements to it. I'll admit the game is the most subdued in the series but I feel the emotion is still there.

I could always relate to Basch's pride as he spoke up for his beliefs even though everyone treated him like dirt. I could also feel the conflict with the Occurians but this is due to my stances on freedom and it's importance to me. I hate to say it but I really did actually connect to the cast as a whole. I can relate to everyone of them on some level.

I really did like the reconciliation between Basch and Noah, it was a powerful scene IMO. Hell Ashe's scene where she finally makes her choice in the Pharos is one of the most powerful scenes in the game.


^indeed, and i realize that alot of our posts have reflected that. In many ways this is "the game that never was" but at the same time I feel calling that is a little cheap because this really is a remarkable work in the medium of videogames, and its significance will increase as the years go on and new Final Fantasys are released.

I guess another point that really struck me this playthrough is how Vossler is just left on the Shiva to die, I think that hits home to me the most about Renmiri's point of this thread. One of his last words is "Everything I've done, I've done for Dalmasca", and despite him just facing and reavealed to have betrayed the party, you have to really admire and sympathize for him. At the same time, the party might not have known that the entire thing was about to blow, but the threadstarter's point still remains that no one of the party showed any remorse about this, nor is he remembered later on. Not even by Basch, which I found most perplexing.

On my second playthrough, I'm really starting to appreciate the scale and meaning of this game, story very much included. Unfortunately, there still are important things missing, lamentably, but it's important for us to accept the good and the bad when evaluating games and their stories, especially a work as important as Final Fantasy XII.

I agree this game is truly groundbreaking and very important to the FF series as a whole. I doubt many would agree but I think XII truly set the bar on what an RPG is suppose to be. The amount of detail and depth to the game is truly amazing.

As for Vossler, I do find it sad that they don't reflect upon this scene a little more. It's one of many moments that shows that XII was definetly more story driven than character driven like the last few installments.Vossler is a perfect example of a man who is neither truly good nor evil. In the end he was only human.

XII is a wonderful game but I agree it's far from perfect.



I guess another point that really struck me this playthrough is how Vossler is just left on the Shiva to die,... no one of the party showed any remorse about this, nor is he remembered later on. Not even by Basch, which I found most perplexing.
Yeah, I had forgotten about that but that bothered me too at the time.


...alot of our posts have reflected that. In many ways this is "the game that never was" but at the same time I feel calling that is a little cheap because this really is a remarkable work in the medium of videogames, and its significance will increase as the years go on and new Final Fantasys are released.

On my second playthrough, I'm really starting to appreciate the scale and meaning of this game, story very much included. Unfortunately, there still are important things missing, lamentably, but it's important for us to accept the good and the bad when evaluating games and their stories, especially a work as important as Final Fantasy XII.
Agreed wholeheartedly! I would even say that is the game's success that makes me more picky: some parts of XII have such incredible detail it is obvious it was designed very carefully with a lot of thought and attention put into it, like the battle system, the graphics, the bestiary monsters, the bestiary cards, the world geography... Makes me want the same richness of design and thoughtful process spent on the rest :(

But I've made my peace with the game. It was a great game, just not "perfect for Renmiri" and Square was brave to challenge their own rules of game making.

But next time Square, please keep it simple and go with tradition ? Pretty please ? ;)

The only consistant tradition in Final Fantasy is innovation.;) What were you thinking of?

But I do hope that SE has learned from XII. If XIII has the same level of depth and work gone into it's world, I may be able to overlook Mecha Shiva... and the fact that it looks like a cheesey, Matrix inspired, wannabe kung-fu, sci-fi, action flick with plenty of explosions and cutscenes to make me relish the days when games were simply games and not mini-interactive movies.:rolleyes2

Bolivar
07-08-2007, 12:57 AM
it looks like a cheesey, Matrix inspired, wannabe kung-fu, sci-fi, action flick with plenty of explosions and cutscenes to make me relish the days when games were simply games and not mini-interactive movies.:rolleyes2

you have an uncanny ability to sum up an entire game in one sentence.

I think it looks like THA :skull::skull::skull::skull:!!!

Wolf Kanno
07-08-2007, 06:36 AM
it looks like a cheesey, Matrix inspired, wannabe kung-fu, sci-fi, action flick with plenty of explosions and cutscenes to make me relish the days when games were simply games and not mini-interactive movies.:rolleyes2

you have an uncanny ability to sum up an entire game in one sentence.

I think it looks like THA :skull::skull::skull::skull:!!!

It's a gift;)

To each their own I guess :p

The trailer really rubbed me the wrong way, also throw in the fact that this team's last few games they've done I felt were pretty terrible (X and X-2). But that's only my personal opinion.

Renmiri
07-08-2007, 09:44 PM
...the fact that this team's last few games they've done I felt were pretty terrible (X and X-2). But that's only my personal opinion.

Infidel!!!! :eep: :mog: :choc2:

Bolivar
07-09-2007, 03:08 AM
*gerun (occuria) voice*

KANNO IS A HERETIC!!!

Wolf Kanno
07-09-2007, 06:21 AM
...the fact that this team's last few games they've done I felt were pretty terrible (X and X-2). But that's only my personal opinion.

Infidel!!!! :eep: :mog: :choc2:


*gerun (occuria) voice*

KANNO IS A HERETIC!!!

:p

No, seriously, if Kitase, Nojima, and Nomura promised me that this game wouldn't be anything like X (story structure, pacing, chartacterization, and ratio of story to gameplay) , I would probably get a little more excited about this game.

The plot info is intriguing but the screenshots and recent info ("guy with big feet" that's relevant information why?, MECHA SHIVA!) keep destroying any positive expectations I might of have. I'm taking the skeptical route until I play the game for myself.

Setzer Gabianni
07-14-2007, 02:40 PM
Seeing as I've been away for several weeks (:skull::skull::skull::skull: tastic floods), I'll just say this:

1. You got owned love.
2. Missed you <3
3. Staying around helping them and whatnot - er, what's it going to achieve? What's more important - hanging around, and trying to stop impending war as fast as they can? No time to really hang around~

I'm sure this has already been covered buttt..eh XD

Timerk
07-14-2007, 08:34 PM
Did someone post that the FFXII plot was a bowl of emptiness smothered in nothing? Cuz I don't want to double post if someone already said it.

Avarice-ness
07-14-2007, 11:39 PM
I've made this claim before, about how this game was not made with heart.

Now no one may have understood what I meant, but this game seems -extremely- stiff and emotionless. -Yes- they do act like they have -some- kind of emotion, but it's normally put forth when something bad has happened to the -characters- and not really something that they may have seen or done that really has other association that something like "they were just convienently there at the time, so we have no real point on caring, we have things to do".

Other FF games if they walked into an ALREADY destroyed town the characters would be like "omg, what happened here" and normally there would be that one person in the party to suggest to find someone to find out more, which normally entails their want to help because they care and such.

I don't believe this game was made with the heart that the other ones were in, where you can actually connect with the characters in some human way as you could with the chara's of other games. I'm fearing that FFXIII may be like that too. :(

Dr. Acula
07-15-2007, 05:06 AM
I kinda agree. Someone close to them died, they mourn for a few seconds then forget about them for the rest of the game(excluding Rasler, of course).



I'm fearing that FFXIII may be like that too. :(

I hope not.

Lynx
07-15-2007, 11:34 AM
I've made this claim before, about how this game was not made with heart.

Now no one may have understood what I meant, but this game seems -extremely- stiff and emotionless. -Yes- they do act like they have -some- kind of emotion, but it's normally put forth when something bad has happened to the -characters- and not really something that they may have seen or done that really has other association that something like "they were just convienently there at the time, so we have no real point on caring, we have things to do".

Other FF games if they walked into an ALREADY destroyed town the characters would be like "omg, what happened here" and normally there would be that one person in the party to suggest to find someone to find out more, which normally entails their want to help because they care and such.

I don't believe this game was made with the heart that the other ones were in, where you can actually connect with the characters in some human way as you could with the chara's of other games. I'm fearing that FFXIII may be like that too. :(

well i do have to agree it dos seem liek all the characters are rather heartless. but the way i see it is they all have there own problems that just outway the death of people they dont know. i knwo thats a very heartless self centered statement but thats kinda how they were portrayed to be. and the onyl reason why this doesnt really bother me is because they are in a war when someone is killed you ahve to keep moveing or you could be next. the onyl characters who should ahve been mourning too much anyways is ashe and basche. ashe is supposed to be fighting to revive her kingdom and save the people in it. basche is a knight of her kingdom and should feel the same. balthier is a wanted man he's jsut in this because well he doesnt like archadia very much. fran is an exile and partner to balthier. vaan and panelo are just kids. they act like kids. vaan is going for revenge where panelo jsut seems like shes there for vaan and because she sees good in larsa.

i do agree that they were a little heartless but for the most part it seemed rather justified, not so much for ashe though but she never really struck me as the nicest character anyways.

Setzer Gabianni
07-23-2007, 11:33 AM
I've heard FFXIII is going to be really dark and miserable. :(

Renmiri
07-23-2007, 10:39 PM
Did someone post that the FFXII plot was a bowl of emptiness smothered in nothing? Cuz I don't want to double post if someone already said it.

Read my last 500 posts :p

Bolivar
07-24-2007, 03:45 PM
Did someone post that the FFXII plot was a bowl of emptiness smothered in nothing? Cuz I don't want to double post if someone already said it.

Read my last 500 posts :p

I think it was a very rare and delicious morsel that was unfortunately smothered in a sauce of monotony.