Kenshin VS. Darth Vader

[Goldenboko]

Haha! No Sephy. Well go.

[Jessweeee♪]

What about Chad Vader? Isn't he good enough?

[Tavrobel]

Kenshin. He's almost as fast as light, and not even the Force can match the raw awesome and the secondary vacuum effect of the Amakeru no Hirameki. Darth Vader is also slow, a freak, mentally imbalanced, and slow. Kenshin is fast. He fights blind (Shimabara only). He gets hit by hammers from hammerspace. He had to fight Enishi, Shishio, Jin-e, Saitou, and even Aoshi. You tell me who wins now.

[Goldenboko]

What about Chad Vader? Isn't he good enough?

NO! :cool:

[Lynx]

no one can touch kenshins skills. all the siths could fight him at the same time and he's woop them.

[Avarice-ness]

Kenshin. :love:

[Namelessfengir]

do not underestimate the power of the darkside

[Lynx]

do not underestimate the power of the darkside

do not underestimate the power of the hiten mitsurugi or however you might spell it.

[Namelessfengir]

do not underestimate the power of the darkside

do not underestimate the power of the hiten mitsurugi or however you might spell it.

mitsurugi? from soulcaliber 2?

[Zeromus_X]

If Kenshin could pull off the Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki, he'd probably have a chance.

This looks like a job for Behold the Void...

[Freya]

Kenshin. He's almost as fast as light, and not even the Force can match the raw awesome and the secondary vacuum effect of the Amakeru no Hirameki. Darth Vader is also slow, a freak, mentally imbalanced, and slow. Kenshin is fast. He fights blind (Shimabara only). He gets hit by hammers from hammerspace. He had to fight Enishi, Shishio, Jin-e, Saitou, and even Aoshi. You tell me who wins now.

I'd say I love you for saying all that but that might give people ideas. I think that was the perfect thing to day, also I didn't have to write it.

[Goldenboko]

do not underestimate the power of the darkside

do not underestimate the power of the hiten mitsurugi or however you might spell it.

mitsurugi? from soulcaliber 2?

No! From Rurouni Kenshin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurouni_Kenshin)!

EDIT- I say Kenshin. Kenshin's main disadvantage would be that his Sword could never tough Darth's lightsaber, but he's so fast it wouldn't make much of a difference IMO.

[Freya]

do not underestimate the power of the darkside

do not underestimate the power of the hiten mitsurugi or however you might spell it.

mitsurugi? from soulcaliber 2?

No! From Rurouni Kenshin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurouni_Kenshin) Samurai X!
X came first!

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

The Force involves powerful telekinetic attacks. Kenshin is powerful and strong-willed, but he can't fight the supernatural. Vader can disable him at a distance, while Kenshin NEEDS to be able to get close to use any of his attacks.

As Kenshin is a speed-focused fighter and due to his natural physiology, his body is generally pretty light. Vader wouldn't have any problem force-grabbing him and flinging him around like a ragdoll.

Also, I'm assuming we're speaking of Himura Kenshin as opposed to the Hitokiri Battousai. As the Hitokiri Battousai, he's able to kill, which is essentially what it would take to defeat Vader. As Himura Kenshin, he has two extra attacks that make him quite formidable, but he loses the killing instinct. You can argue back and forth as to whether or not this is a weakness, but remember that Vader is almost completely a cyborg. Incapacitation isn't going to do it.

Returning to the force powers for a bit, Vader is also able to predict the moves before Kenshin makes them. While Kenshin can do much the same with his Hiten Mitsurugi's ability to read an enemy's movements, Vader's techniques are foreign to him and his cyborg body would likely make it more difficult to read, as Hiten Mitsurugi relies on reading body language, of which Vader's would be quite diminished.

Finally, we have weaponry. One block is all it will take for Vader to completely disable Kenshin, as a lightsaber can sheer through a steel katana (or sakabatou in this case) as if it were nothing. Craftsmanship aside, Vader still has the advantage in weaponry.

Really, this is just a mismatch. Generally, pitting supernatural characters against non-supernatural characters (even someone who gets as close to the supernatural as Kenshin does) doesn't go so well for the non-supernatural character. Unless the supernatural character's abilities are completely noncombative, the ability to bend and break the laws of physics generally wins.

[Goldenboko]

do not underestimate the power of the darkside

do not underestimate the power of the hiten mitsurugi or however you might spell it.

mitsurugi? from soulcaliber 2?

No! From Rurouni Kenshin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurouni_Kenshin) Samurai X!
X came first!
I've just been Anime pwned :kaocry:

[Zeromus_X]

Original Rurouni Kenshin manga-> Rurouni Kenshin anime adaption-> Rurouni Kenshin OVA ("Samurai X").

[Spammerman]

Well, lets say they had even weaponry and this was pure swordfighting. I think kenshin would have vader beat.

Also, I dont think its fair having a super natural type of guy with a sword of light that can control stuff fight a samurai.

[Proxy]

I'm a big Star Wars fan. I collect the lego for christ sake. But I voted Kenshin. Vader is totally badass, but Kenshin is too quick for the force. That is if we're talking about Kenshin from the OAV's.
It would be an interesting fight. Not very long, but interesting.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

Well, lets say they had even weaponry and this was pure swordfighting. I think kenshin would have vader beat.

Also, I dont think its fair having a super natural type of guy with a sword of light that can control stuff fight a samurai.

In that case Kenshin would win, but is it not equally unfair to take away everything that makes Vader worthwhile in a fight?

As I said, this is really just a mismatch. These two characters shouldn't be compared because Kenshin just naturally gets screwed via lack of supernatural.

[Goldenboko]

Well, lets say they had even weaponry and this was pure swordfighting. I think kenshin would have vader beat.

Also, I dont think its fair having a super natural type of guy with a sword of light that can control stuff fight a samurai.

In that case Kenshin would win, but is it not equally unfair to take away everything that makes Vader worthwhile in a fight?

As I said, this is really just a mismatch. These two characters shouldn't be compared because Kenshin just naturally gets screwed via lack of supernatural.
Well assuming we threw their world together wouldn't Kenshin have some resistance against the force just because he is strong willed?

[Freya]

X came first!
I've just been Anime pwned :kaocry:


Original Rurouni Kenshin manga-> Rurouni Kenshin anime adaption-> Rurouni Kenshin OVA ("Samurai X").

Oie I did too.

[Ramza Beoulve]

do not underestimate the power of the darkside

do not underestimate the power of the hiten mitsurugi or however you might spell it.

mitsurugi? from soulcaliber 2?

No! From Rurouni Kenshin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurouni_Kenshin) Samurai X!
X came first!
Rurouni Kenshin: Meiji Swordsman Romantic Story came first desu!

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

Well, lets say they had even weaponry and this was pure swordfighting. I think kenshin would have vader beat.

Also, I dont think its fair having a super natural type of guy with a sword of light that can control stuff fight a samurai.

In that case Kenshin would win, but is it not equally unfair to take away everything that makes Vader worthwhile in a fight?

As I said, this is really just a mismatch. These two characters shouldn't be compared because Kenshin just naturally gets screwed via lack of supernatural.
Well assuming we threw their world together wouldn't Kenshin have some resistance against the force just because he is strong willed?

I could accept Kenshin having force resistance, but even then Vader's stronger weapon and force prediction would still win it for him. All Vader needs to do is predict but one attack and slice Kenshin's sword in half and he wins.

[Goldenboko]

Well, lets say they had even weaponry and this was pure swordfighting. I think kenshin would have vader beat.

Also, I dont think its fair having a super natural type of guy with a sword of light that can control stuff fight a samurai.

In that case Kenshin would win, but is it not equally unfair to take away everything that makes Vader worthwhile in a fight?

As I said, this is really just a mismatch. These two characters shouldn't be compared because Kenshin just naturally gets screwed via lack of supernatural.
Well assuming we threw their world together wouldn't Kenshin have some resistance against the force just because he is strong willed?

I could accept Kenshin having force resistance, but even then Vader's stronger weapon and force prediction would still win it for him. All Vader needs to do is predict but one attack and slice Kenshin's sword in half and he wins.

I'm having trouble accepting that Vader's cyborg body could even keep up with Kenshin. All Kenshin would have to do is aim for the hands, most likely the weakest point of his suit considering all of the circuits that would be needed there to make the hands and fingers react properly.

[Namelessfengir]

The Force involves powerful telekinetic attacks. Kenshin is powerful and strong-willed, but he can't fight the supernatural. Vader can disable him at a distance, while Kenshin NEEDS to be able to get close to use any of his attacks.

As Kenshin is a speed-focused fighter and due to his natural physiology, his body is generally pretty light. Vader wouldn't have any problem force-grabbing him and flinging him around like a ragdoll.

Also, I'm assuming we're speaking of Himura Kenshin as opposed to the Hitokiri Battousai. As the Hitokiri Battousai, he's able to kill, which is essentially what it would take to defeat Vader. As Himura Kenshin, he has two extra attacks that make him quite formidable, but he loses the killing instinct. You can argue back and forth as to whether or not this is a weakness, but remember that Vader is almost completely a cyborg. Incapacitation isn't going to do it.

Returning to the force powers for a bit, Vader is also able to predict the moves before Kenshin makes them. While Kenshin can do much the same with his Hiten Mitsurugi's ability to read an enemy's movements, Vader's techniques are foreign to him and his cyborg body would likely make it more difficult to read, as Hiten Mitsurugi relies on reading body language, of which Vader's would be quite diminished.

Finally, we have weaponry. One block is all it will take for Vader to completely disable Kenshin, as a lightsaber can sheer through a steel katana (or sakabatou in this case) as if it were nothing. Craftsmanship aside, Vader still has the advantage in weaponry.

Really, this is just a mismatch. Generally, pitting supernatural characters against non-supernatural characters (even someone who gets as close to the supernatural as Kenshin does) doesn't go so well for the non-supernatural character. Unless the supernatural character's abilities are completely noncombative, the ability to bend and break the laws of physics generally wins.

thank you

that's a little more in depth than i was going for. i just meant get him in a force choke to hold him and throw the saber at him

otherwise if he get out manuvered and kenshin get behind for a kill shot
vader can just reverse the blade and jam it through himself (he used this to take a darth maul clone in a starwars tales comic)

[Freya]

I dunno kenshin does have his crazy eyes!

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/Lekana/eyes.jpg

[Mirage]

vader, lol.

[Araciel]

only one skilled in the ways of the force has a chance of killing a sith lord like vader, and a drawing of some poofter looking japanese kid with a metal sword definitely does not qualify.

[Lynx]

ok kenshin can fight telekentics as seen in his battle against jin-e jin-e tried useing one on him and his warrior spirit is too powerful.

kenshin has the problem of steal vs light saber. eliminateing sword contact. useing ka ryu san or the do ryu san he can attack long range.

and then theres the unblockable attack Ryu ku zu ryue sen hitting all 9 strike points. lets see vader block that. also with vader being mostly robot and probably haveing enhanced senses kenshins Ryu mei san could disrupt his hearing and cause quite the headache.

i wouldnt think slow moveing vader has much chance against kenshin.

also kenshin might think differently when it comes to killing somehting that isnt human.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

Well, lets say they had even weaponry and this was pure swordfighting. I think kenshin would have vader beat.

Also, I dont think its fair having a super natural type of guy with a sword of light that can control stuff fight a samurai.

In that case Kenshin would win, but is it not equally unfair to take away everything that makes Vader worthwhile in a fight?

As I said, this is really just a mismatch. These two characters shouldn't be compared because Kenshin just naturally gets screwed via lack of supernatural.
Well assuming we threw their world together wouldn't Kenshin have some resistance against the force just because he is strong willed?

I could accept Kenshin having force resistance, but even then Vader's stronger weapon and force prediction would still win it for him. All Vader needs to do is predict but one attack and slice Kenshin's sword in half and he wins.

I'm having trouble accepting that Vader's cyborg body could even keep up with Kenshin. All Kenshin would have to do is aim for the hands, most likely the weakest point of his suit considering all of the circuits that would be needed there to make the hands and fingers react properly.

On the contrary, being a Cyborg body implies that Kenshin cannot keep up with it, as a machine has a higher physical capacity than a human's body. Plus, Vader doesn't have to use his telekinetic effects on Kenshin, he can even use it on his own lightsaber, something Kenshin would not be able to keep up with or fight.

Let's also not forget that Kenshin would be completely out of his element fighting a man with a machine body. He's a Meijii-era Japanese man, he doesn't know about these things.


ok kenshin can fight telekentics as seen in his battle against jin-e jin-e tried useing one on him and his warrior spirit is too powerful.

Jin-E uses hypnosis. Not telekinesis. Entirely different thing. Telekinesis involves mentally manipulating matter.


kenshin has the problem of steal vs light saber. eliminateing sword contact. useing ka ryu san or the do ryu san he can attack long range.

Vader can easily deflect those moves with force telekinesis. Plus, what are some rocks going to do against a metal body?


and then theres the unblockable attack Ryu ku zu ryue sen hitting all 9 strike points. lets see vader block that. also with vader being mostly robot and probably haveing enhanced senses kenshins Ryu mei san could disrupt his hearing and cause quite the headache.

The idea behind the 9-point strike is that it's so quick that you might block one of the attacks, but you won't block them all. Vader can predict the attack and block the only strike that matters - the first strike. Destroying Kenshin's sword ends his threat.


i wouldnt think slow moveing vader has much chance against kenshin.

Have we ever seen Vader move at full speed? He moves deliberately, but I wouldn't rule out his ability to move at an acceptable speed to defeat Kenshin. Even then, the only thing about Vader that needs to move quickly is his mind, to use his various force effects to shut Kenshin down.

[Goldenboko]

Point taken, I say I'd be close.

[Lynx]

On the contrary, being a Cyborg body implies that Kenshin cannot keep up with it, as a machine has a higher physical capacity than a human's body. Plus, Vader doesn't have to use his telekinetic effects on Kenshin, he can even use it on his own lightsaber, something Kenshin would not be able to keep up with or fight.

.

kenshin can block a bullet if vader telekentict his light saber at kenshin id bet kenshin could slice the handle of it and break it before it even hit him.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

On the contrary, being a Cyborg body implies that Kenshin cannot keep up with it, as a machine has a higher physical capacity than a human's body. Plus, Vader doesn't have to use his telekinetic effects on Kenshin, he can even use it on his own lightsaber, something Kenshin would not be able to keep up with or fight.

.

kenshin can block a bullet if vader telekentict his light saber at kenshin id bet kenshin could slice the handle of it and break it before it even hit him.

That's assuming Vader would give him the chance. Vader's skilled enough to not bring the weak point of his light saber within reach of Kenshin's sakabato.

EVERY attack Vader makes with a light saber is potentially crippling. Kenshin needs to make one very precise and easily counterable attack to disable Vader's weapon. It just doesn't work.

[Fonzie]

On the contrary, being a Cyborg body implies that Kenshin cannot keep up with it, as a machine has a higher physical capacity than a human's body. Plus, Vader doesn't have to use his telekinetic effects on Kenshin, he can even use it on his own lightsaber, something Kenshin would not be able to keep up with or fight.

.

kenshin can block a bullet if vader telekentict his light saber at kenshin id bet kenshin could slice the handle of it and break it before it even hit him.

That's assuming Vader would give him the chance. Vader's skilled enough to not bring the weak point of his light saber within reach of Kenshin's sakabato.

EVERY attack Vader makes with a light saber is potentially crippling. Kenshin needs to make one very precise and easily counterable attack to disable Vader's weapon. It just doesn't work.

Assume Kenshin got a lightsaber.

[Araciel]

hah in that case....might as well also assume vader brings an army of storm troopers, a couple of star destroyers, some bounty hunters for good measure...and the emperor.

also, you can't just pick up a lightsaber and use it like a normal sword.

[Zeromus_X]

Assume Kenshin got a lightsaber.

Kenshin would not wield a lethal weapon, and would probably have trouble adjusting to such a futuristic weapon in the first place.

[Namelessfengir]

yeah but you can train for it, ie a heavy hilt with a plastic blade

and on the destroyer note that wouldn't very honerable would it
yes yes i know sith are trecherus but vader still had his honor he'd blast him if was only a nuicence. and duel if he thought Kenshin worthy

[Lynx]

On the contrary, being a Cyborg body implies that Kenshin cannot keep up with it, as a machine has a higher physical capacity than a human's body. Plus, Vader doesn't have to use his telekinetic effects on Kenshin, he can even use it on his own lightsaber, something Kenshin would not be able to keep up with or fight.

.

kenshin can block a bullet if vader telekentict his light saber at kenshin id bet kenshin could slice the handle of it and break it before it even hit him.

That's assuming Vader would give him the chance. Vader's skilled enough to not bring the weak point of his light saber within reach of Kenshin's sakabato.

EVERY attack Vader makes with a light saber is potentially crippling. Kenshin needs to make one very precise and easily counterable attack to disable Vader's weapon. It just doesn't work.

vaders telekentics is limited. even yoda is seen straining to telkeneticly move something. which means vader probably has his limits too. as fast as the force could move an object at kenshin, kenshin can move faster. he has the ability to cut through something and then slice back reforming it together with o trace of a cut modsgi giri.

as far as jin-E hynosis i was basically refferring to vaders telekentic choke hold he has kenshisn warrior spirit could probably disrupt this because hypnosis and telkenesis is power of mentality. i dont think vader could do anything to kenshin telkenticly such as controlling him.

now vader might be cryborg and his speed may be amazeing but kenshin can litterally move so fast he is unable to be seen.

now as for the ryu ku zu ryu sen all 9 points are hit at the same time. seeing as laws of time doesnt allow this to make sense we can assume each hit is lets say a 100th of a second apart. vader would have to have the perfect swing hitting the first attack and cutting the blade at the hilt of the reverse blade. because if he jsut slice half the blade the very resourceful kenshin probably would alternate the attack mid process and his him with the rest of the sword. the onyl way to beat this attack is to move faster then kenshin.

as for kenshins very presise way of diableing the light saber. kenshin could easily do this. he has cut bombs in half dodged bullets blocked bullets caught blades with his hands and even blocked poion needles by slamming floor boards to raise up. kenshins attacks are very accurate. its more likly kenshin slickeing the light saber handle in 2 then vader stopping tje ryu ku zu ryu sen

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

No, it's really not.

Vader knows what Kenshin's going to do. He can predict it with great accuracy and move to counterattack before Kenshin starts moving.

You overexaggerate Kenshin's speed. He's fast, yes. So what?

Yoda is seen straining to lift a large ship. Last time I checked, Kenshin is not a large ship.

Further, speed means nothing to telekinesis effects. They are essentially applied force on a certain point fueled by mental strength. They are countered by disrupting the focus of the user, or by applying a greater force.

Kenshin is not strong, his major strength is his speed and technique. Kenshin's throat, in particular, is no stronger than normal, and as he does not possess the force himself he cannot break Vader's force attacks. It is impossible for him to do so. At best, he's immune to the Jedi Mind tricks, which cloud and influence the mind itself. Telekinetic Force effects will still have just as much strength, as Kenshin doesn't have anything to counter with it.

Kenshin is quick, but he's not as fast as, say, Soujiro, the Tenken. As I recall, it was not Kenshin but Soujiro who was able to move so fast that the human eye could not see it. In the manga, Amakakeru Ryu no Hirameki wasn't faster than Soujiro's attack, just stronger. And even if he were faster than Soujiro, it means nothing because there is no possible way Kenshin can get close to Vader before Vader blasts him. And if he does get close to Vader, Vader can fling him away with relative ease.

Also, you keep assuming that Vader's an utterly inferior swordsman. I cannot believe that one of the most feared Sith Lords in the galaxy can't fight, especially since he had prior received Jedi training. I mean, seriously, Vader's had extensive training like Kenshin and considerable experience. With his force (which Kenshin cannot counter) and his lightsaber (which Kenshin has a very slim chance of slicing in half and which has a very large chance of slicing Kenshin or his sword or both in half) and his skill (which will at least ensure he won't be one-shotted by Kenshin and will be able to counter Kenshin's attacks) Vader WILL win. Kenshin has entirely too much stacked against him. He is still a human without any special powers whatsoever, and thus loses to the one with said powers and better weaponry and plenty of combat experience and training.

[Lynx]

well it was in the battle with jin-E that kenshin moved so quickly he was couldnt be seen and then proceeded to break jin-E nose. modsgi giri is an attack so fast ist like it never happened which kinda makes the attack pointless but you get the idea its fast. also how you said vader can predict kenshins moves is one of the things hiten mitsurugi teaches to predict. so they both have a relativly good idea what eachother is going to do. i dont remember vader haveing any type of predictions (besides dreams) though, but i will say its been sometime since i seen any star wars. so if im wrong in anything about star wars corrrect me.

also i know vader was trained by a jedi and is essentially a jedi so he would ahve decent sword skills. but i think kenshins are a level beyond his. vader misses swings aginst luke once or twice idk. kenshin seems considerably faster then luke or vader. if vader were to miss kenshin could send him flying. even though kenshin mostly uses offensive stances he does have defensive ones that he uses and the opponent attacks first letting him find his opening.

also as far as vaders telekensis he doesnt seem to ever lift up people telekenticly or anything so maybe its just not possible for him to do so. besides i know kenshin is only human and has no actual super powers but his warrior spirit is kinda like his power. makes him stand unconscious makes the wind and leaves react to him blocks hypnosis. i just doubt the vader choke hold would work on him. warrior spirit negates mental power such as hypnosis or possibly telekensis even if the power is brought on by the force its still a mental power.

also i will say soujiro did seem faster. he didnt even use his full atack his last try was one step short i believe and thats when the succesion technique whiped him out. also the christian swordsman was faster then him too seemed to be much faster. and when kenshin finnaly beat him he had just been shot but then again kenshin was blind thats pretty fair :p . also i think master hiko is all around better then kenshin and that he just let kenshin win ;)

but i think until an episode or movie is created this debate will continue forever :D

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

Just because Vader never does it doesn't mean he can't, simply that it wasn't thematically appropriate. We know the force is strong in Vader. We can easily surmise that he's powerful enough TO do such things, and that he can bring it to bear on a foe if necessary.

Kenshin's fighting spirit is nowhere near on the same level as the Force powers. It just can't compete. I'm not saying Kenshin's bad, quite the contrary, but he's just not THAT good. Nobody from Kenshin's world can defeat Darth Vader, it's impossible because they don't have anywhere near the level of power Darth Vader possesses, nor the technology.

As I recall, Jedi fight by reading each other's moves. That simply means that Luke was reading better than Vader. Or, also possible, Vader was holding back.

Kenshin moved faster than Jin-E could follow. Not a huge feat, Jin-E wasn't nearly as strong as some of the later characters.

I addressed this in an earlier post (although it was an edit) but Kenshin's Hiten Mitsurugi would fail to read Vader appropriately because Vader's a cyborg and his fighting style is alien to Kenshin. Vader doesn't have that same problem because he's just directly predicting Kenshin's moves through his force power.

I see no possible way for Kenshin's fighting spirit to break the Force choke. Note it's never done anything besides intimidate and make a few leaves react. Vader's telekinesis is clearly defined and he can do offensive stuff with it. Kenshin is helpless towards it.

Kenshin can't win. It just isn't going to happen. He's not powerful enough. He's one of the strongest men in his world, which has no such power. In Star Wars, however, he's just an archaic if not well-trained swordsman.

[Lynx]

i may have accidently skipped one of your posts and not seen the hiten mitsurugi not reading a cyborg. my bad.

but kenshin had 2 ways of predictions the persons next move. one was why he had such a hard time against soujiro hios facial exspressions were impossible to understand what he was thinking. and obviously this isnt going to work on vaders mask. but then there was defensive stances he used when he could not understand what was going on. such as what he used on hanya because the whole stretching arm thing.

kenshin would more then likly let someone like vader have the first move that way when it got to the point where his stance would allow him to get out of the way. he could wait until vaders saber was in an area where recovery from the over swing would be too slow, compared to kenshins swing. its not so much a prediction is it a skill of a stance.

also lets say kenshin got hit by the vader choke hold (i like calling it that) kenshin would more then likly find a way to disrupt vaders concentration probably by useing do ryu sen because whenever someone was being choked the rest of there body seemed to move but as if they were in desperate need for air. and kenshin has reacted rather smart when cut off from air in his battle with saito. he's resourceful, i think he would find way to win.

also jin-E wasnt as good as aoshi, saito, shishio, sojiro, and a few others but he was part of the shinsengumi who was a very good group of swordsman. he even was good enough to kill a bunch of them. granted he didnt even really compare to some other bad guys in the series.

[Zante]

Don't forget that Vader might be able to use Force Speed, or even Force Lighting.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

All right, so Vader force-chokes Kenshin and lifts him a foot off the ground.

Kenshin effectively loses. Period. Unless he wants to throw his sword, which might loosen the grip for just a moment, but makes him lose anyway as the hold can easily be reestablished before he can get his sword back.

Kenshin has no chance. At all. Vader is just too much more powerful than he is. He has way more options, and every part of Vader's "build" if you will easily counters anything Kenshin can do.

[Lynx]

see but we cant just assume vader lifts him off the ground since no jedi or sith ever actually does that. also only a foot off the ground kenshin would still be able to do the do ryu sen probably jsut not as effective.

vader chokes him kenshin do ryu sen boulders disrupt the attack and kenshin darts in for the kill. but lets say vader does his little lighting power that siths seem to have. kenshin dodges and agian moves in for the kill. kenshins sword skill is beyond vaders. luke was able to out predict vader (or maybe vader didnt want to kill his son who knows?) kenshin has a way of playing it safe until he cna figure out an oppnent.

jedi's and siths mess up. and granted so does kenshin. but kenshin sure does get a lot less body parts cut off of him.

also its kinda sounding like jedi's can only be killed by other jedi's which is not true at all. many died from being shot and what not. and they were killed by average aliens and how we know that they are average is because padme shot down some of the people who killed jedis and she no better then a human with a gun.

so jedi killed by alien who is killed by basically a human. each one can kill each one because each makes mistakes. vader who is famous for making mistakes and kenshin who makes so few mistakes he only has a cross shapes scar on his cheek. and by vader making mistakes i mean killed his wife, got his arms and legs cut off. trusted the sith. went to the dark side. and so on.

so if an average human/alien can kill a jedi with a gun why not an exceptional human who can make a sword more deadly then a gun?

i will say i think vader is one of the most powerful jedi/siths only 2nd to obi wan and the reason i say that is because obi wan let vader win.

[NeoCracker]

The Jedi that died by shots were highly outnumberd. I have never seen a Jedi get shot in the face in a one on one fight.

As for the defensive stance of Kenshins, if he goes into it his sword is easily lost to the lightsaber, or he leaves himself open to many of Vaders Force powers.

There is no real way for kenshin to predict any of Vaders moves. At all. And without that he looses much of his power.

Speed won't do much for him against the powers of Jedi perdiction in battle. He needs to see only one swing of the swords, and cut it with his light saber. Thats it.

No way for kenshin to defend against a simple Force Push either. Vader has been shown to be able to use virtually every force power there is. With the Force speed he could even start to keep up with Kenshin, as for virtually every non-jedi his movements are extremely difficult to follow up on. So he is likely to be close to Kenshin's speed, if not matching it.

So to sum it up.

Kenshin
1)Ability to predict is worthless.
2)His extreme speed likely doesn't beat out Vader enough to make a difference.
3)His Defensive stance leaves him far to vulnerable to anything Vader is capable of Doing.
4)He has no defense against Vadars Force attacks.
5)His sword cannot even be blocked, so only decisive hits mean anything.
6)Since Vader is mostly machine, only critical blows are going to be effective in the slightest against him, and given his ability to predict, he can Guard himself agaisnt one who can't see his movements rather easily.

Aside from being a bit faster, Kenshins got nothing. His better sword technique doesn't mean much against the Force power possessed by Vader.

[Tavrobel]

Aside from being a bit faster

A bit faster? He's only one step behind Shikuchi, which would probably render him immune or able to resist the Force with alarming ability. But I would agree that Kenshin needs to be in Battousai form to stand a chance.

[Chemical]

Buddha kicks both their asses.

[Peegee]

Vader commits seppuku to defeat Darth Maul.

I don't think he can lose to some sharp metal wielding kid.

Vader Seppuku: http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/7822/vadermaulsgy4.jpg

[Tavrobel]

Buddha kicks both their asses.

You win. End of thread.

[CimminyCricket]

The Force involves powerful telekinetic attacks. Kenshin is powerful and strong-willed, but he can't fight the supernatural. Vader can disable him at a distance, while Kenshin NEEDS to be able to get close to use any of his attacks.

As Kenshin is a speed-focused fighter and due to his natural physiology, his body is generally pretty light. Vader wouldn't have any problem force-grabbing him and flinging him around like a ragdoll.

Also, I'm assuming we're speaking of Himura Kenshin as opposed to the Hitokiri Battousai. As the Hitokiri Battousai, he's able to kill, which is essentially what it would take to defeat Vader. As Himura Kenshin, he has two extra attacks that make him quite formidable, but he loses the killing instinct. You can argue back and forth as to whether or not this is a weakness, but remember that Vader is almost completely a cyborg. Incapacitation isn't going to do it.

Returning to the force powers for a bit, Vader is also able to predict the moves before Kenshin makes them. While Kenshin can do much the same with his Hiten Mitsurugi's ability to read an enemy's movements, Vader's techniques are foreign to him and his cyborg body would likely make it more difficult to read, as Hiten Mitsurugi relies on reading body language, of which Vader's would be quite diminished.

Finally, we have weaponry. One block is all it will take for Vader to completely disable Kenshin, as a lightsaber can sheer through a steel katana (or sakabatou in this case) as if it were nothing. Craftsmanship aside, Vader still has the advantage in weaponry.

Really, this is just a mismatch. Generally, pitting supernatural characters against non-supernatural characters (even someone who gets as close to the supernatural as Kenshin does) doesn't go so well for the non-supernatural character. Unless the supernatural character's abilities are completely noncombative, the ability to bend and break the laws of physics generally wins.

Recently (2-4 years ago) there was an "alien" race that invaded the New Republic's galaxy. This "alien" race brought with them a strange type of metal that was able to withstand not only the force, but also the energy put out by the lightsaber. In other words, they couldn't be thrown and their weapons couldn't be cut. Now, they had the same physical features of a human, only they were much more grotesque in that they mutilated their own bodies. So we can assume that maybe the metal used in making swords could have been similar to the type of metal that made Kenshin's sword. The race was unaffected by the force because they came from a galaxy where they didn't believe in the force. And because Kenshin isn't from the New Republic's galaxy, where we can assume the force is most predominant, that he has no idea what the force is and can therefore not believe in it. Either way, the force has been removed.

The only thing that was cyborg about Vader were his limbs. His brain was still his, besides his insanity, which means that he would still move like a human. He could still move them as though he had never lost them. Which means that even though Vader is a "cyborg", Kenshin will still have no problem reading his movements. I'm pretty sure that Vader uses that thing on his chest to breathe anyway, so a few quick shots would most like cause the death of Vader, or even loss of concentration.

As for the force grip, even if Vader somehow managed to get Kenshin to acknowledge the force, allowing for Vader's force grip to take hold, Kenshin once fought a swordsmmen who was able to create gusts of wind with his slash that worked as a ranged attack. This attack could travel through the ground as well as the air. If I remember correct, Kenshin was able to learn, if not master, this technique. If Kenshin were to use this attack on Vader, most likely to knock out the little gizmo on Vader's chest, or perhaps to split Vader's arm down the middle (an easy feat as the attack was able to pierce the ground as well as trees), buying him enough time to regain his footing, breath and coordinate a somewhat more effective counter attack.

But wait, Cim, wouldn't Vader be able to read his mind with the force and thus defend against the impending attack?! No, in Episode One, that alien merchant was able to easily defend against the force intrusion Obi-Wan's master attempted, even though he acknowledged it. Regardless of how arrogant he was, he was more than able to train his mind against such intrusions. Kenshin was even more disciplined than that alien thing. Shouldn't Kenshin be able to defend against mental intrusions such as that? It takes severe mental and physical discipline to be able to master the sword style that Kenshin used.

[Lynx]

The Jedi that died by shots were highly outnumberd. I have never seen a Jedi get shot in the face in a one on one fight.

As for the defensive stance of Kenshins, if he goes into it his sword is easily lost to the lightsaber, or he leaves himself open to many of Vaders Force powers.

There is no real way for kenshin to predict any of Vaders moves. At all. And without that he looses much of his power.

Speed won't do much for him against the powers of Jedi perdiction in battle. He needs to see only one swing of the swords, and cut it with his light saber. Thats it.

No way for kenshin to defend against a simple Force Push either. Vader has been shown to be able to use virtually every force power there is. With the Force speed he could even start to keep up with Kenshin, as for virtually every non-jedi his movements are extremely difficult to follow up on. So he is likely to be close to Kenshin's speed, if not matching it.

So to sum it up.

Kenshin
1)Ability to predict is worthless.
2)His extreme speed likely doesn't beat out Vader enough to make a difference.
3)His Defensive stance leaves him far to vulnerable to anything Vader is capable of Doing.
4)He has no defense against Vadars Force attacks.
5)His sword cannot even be blocked, so only decisive hits mean anything.
6)Since Vader is mostly machine, only critical blows are going to be effective in the slightest against him, and given his ability to predict, he can Guard himself agaisnt one who can't see his movements rather easily.

Aside from being a bit faster, Kenshins got nothing. His better sword technique doesn't mean much against the Force power possessed by Vader.

kenshins predictions would work through his defense stances.

and seeins as kenshin can launch 10 feet and draw his sword at make a crushing blow in about a second as seen in many episodes, he could more then likely make the first blow before vader even has time to grab his light saber and light it up.

kenshins defense stances woldnt necessarily allow vaders saber to hit hiw sword.

as cim said kenshins mental discipline could more then likly negate the force.

also as for decisive hits doing anything. well that is how real sword fighting is you shoudl not swing at there sword unless its intent to block. kenshin knowing he can block would use defense to predict and then switch to offensive.

as for vader being cyborg and can only hit vidal points. well if kenshin cuts off his legs vader is rather useless. remember kenshin doesnt really like to kill people.

[escobert]

these threads are as bad or worse that the blah blah blah console sucks threads.

[NeoCracker]

One, Jedi speed is inhuman. So in speed, kenshin is not far superior, not even as the Batosia.

That defensive stance makes him easy to strike with say, force strike, Force push, force Lighting, throw something at him from behind.

And Kenshin can't predict Vaders movents through facial expressions, and the way a robotic arm moves is much different, at least I'd assume, than the way a human arm moves. For one, there are now muscles contractin or resting, which is how one normally predics how one would move. How exactly can Kenshin predict the moves?

And there is no reason to believe kenshins sword is the same kind of material thats resistant to the force.

Finally, isn't that race immune to only the mental effects, and only resistant to things like Force push, Force Lighting, and such? Not Immune? Though this is the racial description given in the D20 Starwars, so It could be different.

So really, how exactly can Kenshin compete?

[daggertrepe]

Kenshin's hot-therefore he wins.

[Tavrobel]

nerd stuff

nerd stuff to the max

I do believe that you deserve a Sol rune for this.

However, as for Qui Gonn's attempted mind control, didn't the merchant say that it was his racial attributes that allowed him to not have his mind read? Even if this were true, it shows that mental effects of the Force can be resisted, and it's been previously stated that the mind control only works on the weak-willed. Notice how no Jedi tries to use it on another Jedi.

Assuming that Kenshin is not totally immune to Force effects, he's gone through worse. I would imagine that anything besides a direct cut would disable Kenshin. It took Shishio several tries, despite they all being direct hits, to even prevent him from fighting. Soon afterwards, Kenshin still got up (okay, so Saito, Aoshi, and Sano still got their asses kicked in the meantime, but Kenshin revived).

[CimminyCricket]

nerd stuff

nerd stuff to the max

I do believe that you deserve a Sol rune for this.

However, as for Qui Gonn's attempted mind control, didn't the merchant say that it was his racial attributes that allowed him to not have his mind read? Even if this were true, it shows that mental effects of the Force can be resisted, and it's been previously stated that the mind control only works on the weak-willed. Notice how no Jedi tries to use it on another Jedi.

Assuming that Kenshin is not totally immune to Force effects, he's gone through worse. I would imagine that anything besides a direct cut would disable Kenshin. It took Shishio several tries, despite they all being direct hits, to even prevent him from fighting. Soon afterwards, Kenshin still got up (okay, so Saito, Aoshi, and Sano still got their asses kicked in the meantime, but Kenshin revived).

Let me get this straight, you actually read all of what I posted? It doesn't seem as though anyone else did. Thank you, Tav, you are my only friend in this thread.

NeoCracker:

That race is was not effected by any type of the force. They were defeated when the Jedi and New Republic used their own technology, if it can even be called that seeing as their ships were organic, against them. Mika, a trained Jedi Knight, attempted to use the force push several times upon his captives, to no avail. Because they do not acknowledge the force, it doesn't exist, therefore, no form of the force has any effect on them.

Even if Kenshin's sword is not made of the same metallic material, there is no reason for him to block, there are even metals on Tatoonie that are immune to the destructive forces of a lightsaber. Kenshin, when not Batosai, is a more skilled defender than he is an offensive warrior. That doesn't mean he'll necessarily block, but dodge. Kenshin wasn't just able to read opponents due to facial expressions and muscles in arms and all that, he was able to predict due to his massive amount of battles. He became able to predict, due to the way an arm is positioned, the way it will move.

Example:

Vader wasn't known for his speed, but for his brute strength. You never saw him zoom left or right with his sword movements, that was all Luke.

Vader would bring his lightsaber above his head, which would lead Kenshin to believe that an over head strike would occur, side-stepping the attack, possibly attacking at Vader. Vader would then bring the saber back up over his shoulder to the right, Kenshin predicting two things: a diagnal attack or an attack that leads a straight line across to the left. Assuming that the attack would be as far out as was apparent in his fight against Luke, Kenshin could go in for the attack by dashing forward and landing quite a few direct hits, most likely not killing blows at this point, but as was apparent in the anime, Kenshin can be driven into Batosai "mode" by desparity. A jab attack by Vader could easily be dodge leaving an opening for Kenshin to attack the "hilt" of the lightsaber itself. Rendering Vader defenseless weapon wise.

You all assume that Kenshin would parry the blade of the lightsaber, not the "hilt".

[Lynx]

One, Jedi speed is inhuman. So in speed, kenshin is not far superior, not even as the Batosia.

That defensive stance makes him easy to strike with say, force strike, Force push, force Lighting, throw something at him from behind.

And Kenshin can't predict Vaders movents through facial expressions, and the way a robotic arm moves is much different, at least I'd assume, than the way a human arm moves. For one, there are now muscles contractin or resting, which is how one normally predics how one would move. How exactly can Kenshin predict the moves?

And there is no reason to believe kenshins sword is the same kind of material thats resistant to the force.

Finally, isn't that race immune to only the mental effects, and only resistant to things like Force push, Force Lighting, and such? Not Immune? Though this is the racial description given in the D20 Starwars, so It could be different.

So really, how exactly can Kenshin compete?

ok so he cant see muscle contractions in a swing. kenshin does often wait until a swing is almost at the contact point with him before he dodges and attacks. he wouldnt have to look for muscle contractions or facial attitude he could wait until the recovery from the swing is impossible.

now as for force push and lightning. if kenshin can burst through the flames of shishio then he could probably fight the lightning. or even disrupt the lightning with do ryu sen. causeing a boulder to hit the lightning instead of himself. now as for force push. how well would that even effect someone with the power of kenshin. probably makle him slide back a few feet. also the force push needs soime concentration. if kenshin keeps vader on his toes at all times he wont be able to use the push.

and as for how can kenshin compete? kenshins speed and skill is his keys to winning. speed and skill is what wins sword fights not how sharp the blade is or in vaders case if the blade can cut anything. its not the weapon its the weilder.

[Araciel]

Kenshin's hot-therefore he wins.

you can't fuck wit dat yo.

[NeoCracker]

Alright, so we assume force wont' work on Kenshin. However there is still the Jedi Speed. Kenshin would not be that much faster than Vader.

Aslo, you assume that Vader will let his Lightsabers hilt get hit. He is an excelent swordsman. He is not close to being an idiot.

All the examples you listed of predicting movements are common place predictions. Hell, Sano could see all that coming without a problem. I always found Kenshins prediction to be far more sophisticated than that, "Sword over head, he swinging down next".

As for the Weapon, in this case a better weapon makes a hell of a difference. Blocking isn't even an option for Kenshin. Getting Blocked isn't an option for Kenshin.

So Speed they are probably similar, Experience goes to Vader. Better weapon goes to Vader. Options go to Vader. What does Kenshin have that gives him an advantage here?

And if you want to say Kenshin is a lot faster, explain how he competes with Force Speed.

Also, force Grap can be used to fight at a distance by throwing things. Immune to the force or not, I doubt Kenshin is Immune to flying Cars.

[Goldenboko]

Vader never shows off speed only Brute Strength, speed is more of Luke's thing from what I saw in the Movies.

[NeoCracker]

For a Jedi he was quite strong, and not so fast. However comparisan to non Jedi, Force Speed is still inhuman, regardless of the fact Luke is faster.

Remember, this is comparing Vader to Kenshin, not Vader to Luke.

[Lynx]

kenshins earth shattering do ryu sen could stop a flying car. also something with the weight of a car would not move at a great speed kenshin would probably jump over it. or if not that kenshin showed kanryu how strong he was by chopping a solid stone statue in half sending the piece flying into the air and into the building. kenshin could cut the car in half.

jedi speed is something to be dealt with but in all the light saber fights he never moves with the speed and agility as kenshin does.

also kenshin probably has just as much experience. i dont know vaders age but kenshin is in his later 30s i believe. atleast 35. he has more then enough experience. and when the hitokiri takes over all his best skills are enhanced. kenhshin can even fight off a group of shinsengumi with ease. as in samurai x part 3 on youtube.

[NeoCracker]

Vaders around 40-50 I beleive, so perhaps their experience is similar.

But as for Jedi speed, can you imagine watching a fight with two people, say, as fast as Kenshin? If they actually showed you the fight at that speed, you'd barely see anything.

And watch the old Starwars movies, Look at the speed and agility he possess's while fighting against Obei won. Hell, he is the strongest Jedi in his time. Meaning he can beat Yoda, who can move at insane speeds and feets of agility.

MEaning Vader is more than capable of fighting faster and more agile opponents then himself.

You really can't say Vader is to slow to win, because with all the physical enhancments granted by the force its simply not true.

And as throwing things, throw something from behind Kenshin. Even if he notice's, he has to divert his sword to guard or dodge. No one said the Force throwing thing was suppose to hit.

Vader is a damn good swordsman. In terms of physical ability he is definately a match for Kenshin, or the Batosai for that matter.

[Namelessfengir]

these are all very good point and i should know... i was a starwars geek long before i ever saw final fantasy
as for force powers
battle precog - a skill learned in battle but can be intensified by the force
force speed can increase your speed by three times
force choke can increase to force kill or force crush - turn your opponent to paste
force push can be directed in all directions
force stasis - actually freezes the nerves in your opponent, they cant move and you can slice and dice
force drain can suck the life force out of your opponent.
and you cant forget force lightning

combo moves

force choke + lightsaber throw
force pull and a saber - pull your enemy onto your blade

see what you can think of

[Lynx]

even if a car was thrown from behind kenshin he would probably catch on seeing as his senses and reflexes seem to be inhuman. and with soemthign the size of a car he would jump over it out of the way and return to his stance. also if they were standing close to eachother even a rock he would probably get out of its way instead of blocking it with his sword.

and i just think even with the force speed kenshin is faster. and in a battle where the first blow is the vital blow then i would think speed is the main importance well that and not missing.

also i coudlnt imagine vader being too much past 40. it depends how old luke is really. because he was young at the end of episode 3 and luke had jsut been born.

[CimminyCricket]

Regardless of whether or not Kenshin is discipline enough to repel the force he has another option: ysalamiri.

The ysalamiri are a species of tree-dwelling slugs that are immune to effects of the force. The creatures exude a "bubble" which "pushes back" Force energy, making them useful tools for individuals requiring a means to nullify a Jedi's abilities. They evolved this trait to survive being hunted by the predatory Vornskyrs, pack animals that hunt by tracking down live prey by using the Force.

Force speed only provides a visual increase to speed, not an actual one. When a Jedi uses force speed, he is using the force to project what seems to be an in speed while actually moving normal speeds.


As for Vader being a pansy and throwing cars at Kenshin rather than full out attacking, that's perfectly liable. Kenshin has several effective ways to react:


Jump on or over the car.
Cut the damn thing in half, we all know he is more than capable of cutting the thing in half just before it hits him, rendering the attack useless.
Use a ranged attack to destroy the car.
Use one of his techniques to launch an object towards the car.




Kenshin can easily cut through metal, stone etc., he can also swing his sword at the speed of light (godly like speed, it has been seen many times.) Which means Vader's limbs are toast. Whilst being Kenshin and not Batosai, he still has no problem removing an opponents ability to hold a sword, he broke someone's thumb to prevent them from holding a sword. Eventually, he's going to realise that simply breaking a thumb isn't going to help against Vader. So he'll move onto the wrist attempting to break it, but through his frustration, he will most likely swing harder and harder, eventually just removing the limb.

But, Cim, he was never able to cut through a sword!! On the contrary, he was able to cut through several times. It is the swords that were of incredibly high quality that he was unable to strike through.

Regardless of whether or not he can block or be blocked. Kenshin is a smart guy and will realise that Vader's sword is different from others he has faced. And as usual, he will attempt to use his sheath to test Vader's weapon. Vader, never seeing this type of warrior, could easily mistake a sheath and sword combination as two weapons, while Kenshin would merely use the sheath as a diversion in an attempt to get Vader to strike out against the sheath, leaving an opening for Kenshin to destroy Vader's saber.

[NeoCracker]

Where exactly does it say that about Force speed anywhere? I never heard anything like that about it.

And I'm fairly sure that these people know what the hell a sheath is. They are futuristic, not stupid.

In addition, even if they are only moving normal speed, how can Kenshin know this?

And as I said, throwing things would be diversions and ways to open up Kenshin, not a direct attack.

[Holy Lancer]

IF YOU ONLY KNEW THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE!!!

http://www.thesith.com/vader/extras/vader6.jpg