A theory about Ivalice, not only in FFTA.

[Selena_Akariko]

Well, this is a theory I created together with Elpizo, who is also a member of this forum, and based on some other theories whose authors I can't name for I don't know them. This is the first game theory I have ever posted, so I'm kinda nervous about it...


The theory is based on a facts and 2 suppositions. The facts were told to me by Elpizo. I don't know the sourses, so ask him.

Fact: The storyline in the world of Ivalice goes: FF XII => FF XII RW => FFT => Vagrant Story => FFTA => FFTA2

Supposition #1: Luso travels back in time

As far as we know, there are various races in FF XII and RW, and yet none of the races except humans are present in FFT. And leads to the

Supposition #2: Between the time periods of FF XII RW and FFT there was a catastrophe that wiped out all the races except humans.


That being said, I'll tell the theory itself (finally!):

All the Ivalices present in the game are one world, except the FFTA Ivalice.

As said in the supposition, a great catastrophe occured in Ivalice during the time between FF XII RW and FFT. A catastrophe that not only wiped out all the races except humans from the face of the planet, but also threw the human race from high developed technology back into medival one. The world continued to evolve the way it has become, eventually turning into the *real* Ivalice of FFTA, where Mewt buys an ancient book from a bookshop.

According to my theory, the book Mewt bought (called Gran Grimoire, I think) is a record/container of the wishes and dreams of those who got the chance to record them before the catastrophe.
This is proven by 2 facts: 1) Nono, who was just a simple mechanic, has his own airship now, and 2) Montblanc, who always wanted his clan to be the strongest one in Ivalice, makes his dream come true with assistance of Marche.
(Hardy didn't get a chance to record his dreams, poor little moogle :( )

And so, Mewt bought the book that contains dreams and magic of the races that ceased to be. He reads the spell and activates the magic, resulting in the appearance of *dream* Ivalice. We see the entire place is transformed, and people are replaced by the 'dream' ones.
As we know, the Grimoire serves Mewt, in form of the Totema and Remedi and Llednar. It makes Mewt's dreams come true, along with the wishes of people close to him: his dad and his friends.

The corollary of the theory is that the people who vanish in the ending (instead of being replaced by their normal selfs) really vanish. For they are dreams and wishes, and we have destroyed Li-Grim, the essence of every wish ever made, the Crystals, the threads that bind the world, and the people who were also threads (Marche, Ritz, Mewt, Doned and Cid) have left it. And the Grimoire is probably left with blank pages, and/or with no magic at all...

In FFTA2, Luso also discoveres a book, but that one sends him back in time, to the Ivalice of FF XII - FFT time period. Which expains the presence of Vaan, Penelo, Al-Cid and other charachters from FF XII.

Well, that's all. If I have forgotten anything, or you have found some weak points in the theory, feel free to tell me.

Good comments will also be appreciated :)

:save: Selena

[Elpizo]

You give me too much credit. I just told you some things I know or thought about Ivalice and you thought about those things a bit more and made your theory out of it.

So everything is practically her doing, people. ;)

Though I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that a catastrophe did happen between XII and FFT and that it is no supposition, but a fact. Actually, FFT itself has some in game things that pretty much confirm this catastrophe thingie, or at least partly.

[Skyblade]

Well, this is a theory I created together with Elpizo, who is also a member of this forum, and based on some other theories whose authors I can't name for I don't know them. This is the first game theory I have ever posted, so I'm kinda nervous about it...


The theory is based on a facts and 2 suppositions. The facts were told to me by Elpizo. I don't know the sourses, so ask him.

Fact: The storyline in the world of Ivalice goes: FF XII => FF XII RW => FFT => Vagrant Story => FFTA => FFTA2

Supposition #1: Luso travels back in time

As far as we know, there are various races in FF XII and RW, and yet none of the races except humans are present in FFT. And leads to the

Supposition #2: Between the time periods of FF XII RW and FFT there was a catastrophe that wiped out all the races except humans.


That being said, I'll tell the theory itself (finally!):

All the Ivalices present in the game are one world, except the FFTA Ivalice.

As said in the supposition, a great catastrophe occured in Ivalice during the time between FF XII RW and FFT. A catastrophe that not only wiped out all the races except humans from the face of the planet, but also threw the human race from high developed technology back into medival one. The world continued to evolve the way it has become, eventually turning into the *real* Ivalice of FFTA, where Mewt buys an ancient book from a bookshop.

According to my theory, the book Mewt bought (called Gran Grimoire, I think) is a record/container of the wishes and dreams of those who got the chance to record them before the catastrophe.
This is proven by 2 facts: 1) Nono, who was just a simple mechanic, has his own airship now, and 2) Montblanc, who always wanted his clan to be the strongest one in Ivalice, makes his dream come true with assistance of Marche.
(Hardy didn't get a chance to record his dreams, poor little moogle :( )

And so, Mewt bought the book that contains dreams and magic of the races that ceased to be. He reads the spell and activates the magic, resulting in the appearance of *dream* Ivalice. We see the entire place is transformed, and people are replaced by the 'dream' ones.
As we know, the Grimoire serves Mewt, in form of the Totema and Remedi and Llednar. It makes Mewt's dreams come true, along with the wishes of people close to him: his dad and his friends.

The corollary of the theory is that the people who vanish in the ending (instead of being replaced by their normal selfs) really vanish. For they are dreams and wishes, and we have destroyed Li-Grim, the essence of every wish ever made, the Crystals, the threads that bind the world, and the people who were also threads (Marche, Ritz, Mewt, Doned and Cid) have left it. And the Grimoire is probably left with blank pages, and/or with no magic at all...

In FFTA2, Luso also discoveres a book, but that one sends him back in time, to the Ivalice of FF XII - FFT time period. Which expains the presence of Vaan, Penelo, Al-Cid and other charachters from FF XII.

Well, that's all. If I have forgotten anything, or you have found some weak points in the theory, feel free to tell me.

Good comments will also be appreciated :)

:save: Selena

Unfortunately, the theory does not take into account several important ideas.

First: Geographically, the Ivalices in the various games are quite dissimilar. In FFT and FFXII, Ivalice is a huge country, with rivers and lakes but no real bordering seas. In FFTA and FFTA2, Ivalice is a clearly delineated peninsula. You offer no explanation as to why there would be such drastic continental shifts in between the games.

Second: The worlds themselves are quite different. FFT is extremely medieval, FFXII-2 features a world focused around a combination of magic and technology, and containing Magicite, an incredible power source that does not show up at all in any of the other games, not even in a historical note. FFTA and FFTA2 feature the power of laws, which have been in place for as long as recorded history (which shows that they do record their past, and mention it, yet still not even a whisper of magicite), as well as a world that has grown past the medieval stage, into the merchant nation stage.

Third: The characters that show up in multiple games cannot be the same characters. Their personalities and motivations are rather different, and I don't recall any mention in FFXII of Nono being Montblanc's brother. This is my least favorite part of the theory, actually.

Fourth: If the Gran Grimoire is fixing Mewt's desires, then why would it also fulfill those of Montblanc and Nono, who were entirely unrelated to Mewt?

Fifth: How does the real world of St. Ivalice tie into the old Ivalice, as the world of St. Ivalice seems entirely devoid of almost all magic.

But, since I appreciate new ideas and discussion in here, I'll help out some:

The "disaster" did not kill all the other races in Ivalice: It drove them out. It did not start as a cataclysmic disaster, but as a war. FFXII showed us Arcadia's mistreatment of non-humes. After the death of Vayne and the end of the Nethicite war, Arcadia's great civilization began a slow decline. Blaming this decline on non-humes, Arcadia struck out in a new war. Wielding the full powers of science and magicite (and, yes, manufacted nethicite, don't delude yourself into thinking that the destruction of Draklor and the death of Dr. Cid, Vayne, and Venat would halt such promising research), Arcadia started a new war. Their terrible power struck out across Ivalice, driving the non-humes from the land, and devastating the countryside. As Rozarria joined the war, Arcadia fought with increasing desperation and ever greater forces, eventually unleashing the full power of nethicite on the countryside. The war drew to a close. Arcadia was crushed by its own power, and Rozarria staggered on, but the damage was done. Mist bled out across Ivalice, profoundly altering the landscape and the creatures dwelling within. With monsters on the increase, and magicite rendered useless because of the Mist that pervaded Ivalice, the golden age turned to the dark age, and humanity began dwelling once again in castles and fortresses for protection, and, eventually, gave way to the Lion War. After that war, humanity lived in peace for a time, and a new age began when a great king found the five ancient nethicite crystals, and, binding an Esper and a race to each one, crafted the system of laws that was to save Ivalice from destruction, and revived the ancient Arcadian judge magisters to enforce those laws. As time went by, Ivalice grew and prospered under these laws, the races which were driven out long ago returned, slowly. The protection that the crystals afforded Ivalice let it grow past the ancient feudal system into a country of trade and commerce. It was in this new golden age that Mewt was thrust into, and, after the first Judge War, Luso found his way there as well.

Ok, a little more wordy than I expected, but still a lot of fun.

[Selena_Akariko]

Unfortunately, the theory does not take into account several important ideas.

First: Geographically, the Ivalices in the various games are quite dissimilar. In FFT and FFXII, Ivalice is a huge country, with rivers and lakes but no real bordering seas. In FFTA and FFTA2, Ivalice is a clearly delineated peninsula. You offer no explanation as to why there would be such drastic continental shifts in between the games.

I don't know about FFTA2, but the way Ivalice is in FFTA might depend on how much the ones who recorded everything in Gran Grimoire knew about geography, and the places they visited most often. Ivaclice in FFTA really looks simplified to me, like, the distance between 2 nearby locations is exactly 1 day no matter the length of the red line on the map.


Second: The worlds themselves are quite different. FFT is extremely medieval, FFXII-2 features a world focused around a combination of magic and technology, and containing Magicite, an incredible power source that does not show up at all in any of the other games, not even in a historical note. FFTA and FFTA2 feature the power of laws, which have been in place for as long as recorded history (which shows that they do record their past, and mention it, yet still not even a whisper of magicite), as well as a world that has grown past the medieval stage, into the merchant nation stage.

As far as I know, laws and Judges *did* exist in FF XII. And, if you read closely, I say that FFT is so medival because of the catastrophe that happened, doesn't really matter if it's natural or triggered by humans.


Third: The characters that show up in multiple games cannot be the same characters. Their personalities and motivations are rather different, and I don't recall any mention in FFXII of Nono being Montblanc's brother. This is my least favorite part of the theory, actually.
Well, all the people's motivations and personalities change as the time goes by, no matter if they are real or in-game. And, if FFTA says that Nono is Montblanc's brother, but none of it is mentioned in FF XII, it could be very well explained by the fact that Nono probably adored Montblanc, who's the leader of a famous and strong clan, and wanted to be realted to him. I don't see any problem about that.


Fourth: If the Gran Grimoire is fixing Mewt's desires, then why would it also fulfill those of Montblanc and Nono, who were entirely unrelated to Mewt?
The Montblanc and Nono in FFTA aren't the ones who were in FF XII. It's their dream selves, the way they have seen themselves in their dreams. Like, when you daydream, is the one you dream about really you? Nope. It's a completely other person, more perfect in some way than you are.

Gran Grimoire is a collection of those dreams and wishes and dream selves. Mewt just unlocks it, and the recorded dreams start to 'play'. Mewt's dreams and desires are just the latest additions to the original.


Fifth: How does the real world of St. Ivalice tie into the old Ivalice, as the world of St. Ivalice seems entirely devoid of almost all magic.
As I said before, the highly technologically and magically developed Ivalice of FF XII was ruined, throwing the human race back into Medival stage in FFT. Since then the world began to progress the same way as Earth until mordern-like world of FFTA. As to why FFT Ivalice has magic and FFTA hasn't, well, Earth *had* magic in the Medival times. Yes, I know, most people think that there was no such thing as magic in history at all, but, really, it's un-prove-able.


But, since I appreciate new ideas and discussion in here, I'll help out some:quote

The "disaster" did not kill all the other races in Ivalice: It drove them out. It did not start as a cataclysmic disaster, but as a war. FFXII showed us Arcadia's mistreatment of non-humes. After the death of Vayne and the end of the Nethicite war, Arcadia's great civilization began a slow decline. Blaming this decline on non-humes, Arcadia struck out in a new war. Wielding the full powers of science and magicite (and, yes, manufacted nethicite, don't delude yourself into thinking that the destruction of Draklor and the death of Dr. Cid, Vayne, and Venat would halt such promising research), Arcadia started a new war. Their terrible power struck out across Ivalice, driving the non-humes from the land, and devastating the countryside. As Rozarria joined the war, Arcadia fought with increasing desperation and ever greater forces, eventually unleashing the full power of nethicite on the countryside. The war drew to a close. Arcadia was crushed by its own power, and Rozarria staggered on, but the damage was done. Mist bled out across Ivalice, profoundly altering the landscape and the creatures dwelling within. With monsters on the increase, and magicite rendered useless because of the Mist that pervaded Ivalice, the golden age turned to the dark age, and humanity began dwelling once again in castles and fortresses for protection, and, eventually, gave way to the Lion War. After that war, humanity lived in peace for a time, and a new age began when a great king found the five ancient nethicite crystals, and, binding an Esper and a race to each one, crafted the system of laws that was to save Ivalice from destruction, and revived the ancient Arcadian judge magisters to enforce those laws. As time went by, Ivalice grew and prospered under these laws, the races which were driven out long ago returned, slowly. The protection that the crystals afforded Ivalice let it grow past the ancient feudal system into a country of trade and commerce. It was in this new golden age that Mewt was thrust into, and, after the first Judge War, Luso found his way there as well.

I don't agree with that. As I said many times before, FFTA's Ivalice is just a dream world, which is applied to the real one only like an 'overlay'.

And the weak point in your version is: drove them out. To *where*? Besides, Elpizo told me that in FFT there is a location the describtion of which says 'The now extinct moogles used to live here'. It can count as a proof that the races were killed after all.


Ok, a little more wordy than I expected, but still a lot of fun.
Well, I can say you made some good points, and I'm glad I could come up with replies to them :)

Thanks for your long and very detailed comment.

:save: Selena

Edit: My problem is that I have little knowledge of FF XII. I know the storyline, vagueally, but I'm completely unfamilliar with the game system itself (like, battle system and all). If someone explains me how the game is run, I'll either add it to the theory, or, if impossible, I'll admit that my theory is wrong at this point.

[Skyblade]

Unfortunately, the theory does not take into account several important ideas.

First: Geographically, the Ivalices in the various games are quite dissimilar. In FFT and FFXII, Ivalice is a huge country, with rivers and lakes but no real bordering seas. In FFTA and FFTA2, Ivalice is a clearly delineated peninsula. You offer no explanation as to why there would be such drastic continental shifts in between the games.

I don't know about FFTA2, but the way Ivalice is in FFTA might depend on how much the ones who recorded everything in Gran Grimoire knew about geography, and the places they visited most often. Ivaclice in FFTA really looks simplified to me, like, the distance between 2 nearby locations is exactly 1 day no matter the length of the red line on the map.

The various areas are all arranged in a simple and random manner, but the country itself has as detailed a map as any of the others. Look at the map of FFTA: Not the areas, but the outline of the country. Compare that to the maps of FFT and FFXII. You'll see that they're nothing alike.



Second: The worlds themselves are quite different. FFT is extremely medieval, FFXII-2 features a world focused around a combination of magic and technology, and containing Magicite, an incredible power source that does not show up at all in any of the other games, not even in a historical note. FFTA and FFTA2 feature the power of laws, which have been in place for as long as recorded history (which shows that they do record their past, and mention it, yet still not even a whisper of magicite), as well as a world that has grown past the medieval stage, into the merchant nation stage.

As far as I know, laws and Judges *did* exist in FF XII. And, if you read closely, I say that FFT is so medival because of the catastrophe that happened, doesn't really matter if it's natural or triggered by humans.

You don't know FFXII very well then. The judges in FFXII had no connection to a magical law system, and their main job was to be the personal bodyguards of House Solidor.



Third: The characters that show up in multiple games cannot be the same characters. Their personalities and motivations are rather different, and I don't recall any mention in FFXII of Nono being Montblanc's brother. This is my least favorite part of the theory, actually.
Well, all the people's motivations and personalities change as the time goes by, no matter if they are real or in-game. And, if FFTA says that Nono is Montblanc's brother, but none of it is mentioned in FF XII, it could be very well explained by the fact that Nono probably adored Montblanc, who's the leader of a famous and strong clan, and wanted to be realted to him. I don't see any problem about that.

I still suggest you drop this. It adds nothing to your theory and doesn't make a lot of sense, no matter how you look at it.



Fourth: If the Gran Grimoire is fixing Mewt's desires, then why would it also fulfill those of Montblanc and Nono, who were entirely unrelated to Mewt?
The Montblanc and Nono in FFTA aren't the ones who were in FF XII. It's their dream selves, the way they have seen themselves in their dreams. Like, when you daydream, is the one you dream about really you? Nope. It's a completely other person, more perfect in some way than you are.

Gran Grimoire is a collection of those dreams and wishes and dream selves. Mewt just unlocks it, and the recorded dreams start to 'play'. Mewt's dreams and desires are just the latest additions to the original.

Doesn't really make much sense to me. The book is supposed to be a nearly omnipotent force capable of reshaping the world. How does a mere collection of dreams contain that much power? Then too, what little we see of the book describes magical incantations and symbols, not anything that could be read or understood. Even Babus, a scholar in a world that contains the people who would have recorded the Grimoire (according to your theories), could make no sense of the phrase Alta Oron Sondus Kameela.



Fifth: How does the real world of St. Ivalice tie into the old Ivalice, as the world of St. Ivalice seems entirely devoid of almost all magic.
As I said before, the highly technologically and magically developed Ivalice of FF XII was ruined, throwing the human race back into Medival stage in FFT. Since then the world began to progress the same way as Earth until mordern-like world of FFTA. As to why FFT Ivalice has magic and FFTA hasn't, well, Earth *had* magic in the Medival times. Yes, I know, most people think that there was no such thing as magic in history at all, but, really, it's un-prove-able.

If magic dies off when technology grows, the world of FFXII would have been impossible, since it was a combination of technology and magic. At least my addition tried to explain what happened to the powers that once existed.



But, since I appreciate new ideas and discussion in here, I'll help out some:quote

The "disaster" did not kill all the other races in Ivalice: It drove them out. It did not start as a cataclysmic disaster, but as a war. FFXII showed us Arcadia's mistreatment of non-humes. After the death of Vayne and the end of the Nethicite war, Arcadia's great civilization began a slow decline. Blaming this decline on non-humes, Arcadia struck out in a new war. Wielding the full powers of science and magicite (and, yes, manufacted nethicite, don't delude yourself into thinking that the destruction of Draklor and the death of Dr. Cid, Vayne, and Venat would halt such promising research), Arcadia started a new war. Their terrible power struck out across Ivalice, driving the non-humes from the land, and devastating the countryside. As Rozarria joined the war, Arcadia fought with increasing desperation and ever greater forces, eventually unleashing the full power of nethicite on the countryside. The war drew to a close. Arcadia was crushed by its own power, and Rozarria staggered on, but the damage was done. Mist bled out across Ivalice, profoundly altering the landscape and the creatures dwelling within. With monsters on the increase, and magicite rendered useless because of the Mist that pervaded Ivalice, the golden age turned to the dark age, and humanity began dwelling once again in castles and fortresses for protection, and, eventually, gave way to the Lion War. After that war, humanity lived in peace for a time, and a new age began when a great king found the five ancient nethicite crystals, and, binding an Esper and a race to each one, crafted the system of laws that was to save Ivalice from destruction, and revived the ancient Arcadian judge magisters to enforce those laws. As time went by, Ivalice grew and prospered under these laws, the races which were driven out long ago returned, slowly. The protection that the crystals afforded Ivalice let it grow past the ancient feudal system into a country of trade and commerce. It was in this new golden age that Mewt was thrust into, and, after the first Judge War, Luso found his way there as well.

I don't agree with that. As I said many times before, FFTA's Ivalice is just a dream world, which is applied to the real one only like an 'overlay'.

And the weak point in your version is: drove them out. To *where*? Besides, Elpizo told me that in FFT there is a location the describtion of which says 'The now extinct moogles used to live here'. It can count as a proof that the races were killed after all.

Um, to outside Ivalice? Ivalice is not an entire world. While the maps of all the areas may be different, they all show quite clearly that the world extends beyond just Ivalice. Ivalice is a country, (well, in FFXII, it's actually at least a supercontinent, and could be the entire world, it's talked about as though it was the whole world, but there is no real way to prove/disprove that as far as I know) but it isn't the whole world.



Ok, a little more wordy than I expected, but still a lot of fun.
Well, I can say you made some good points, and I'm glad I could come up with replies to them :)

Thanks for your long and very detailed comment.

:save: Selena

Edit: My problem is that I have little knowledge of FF XII. I know the storyline, vagueally, but I'm completely unfamilliar with the game system itself (like, battle system and all). If someone explains me how the game is run, I'll either add it to the theory, or, if impossible, I'll admit that my theory is wrong at this point.

My problem is that I know too much about all the worlds. My knowledge of FFT is a little rusty, but I am quite knowledgable about both FFTA and FFXII. And there are some serious differences in the worlds that need a serious explanation before this idea can be accepted.

[Selena_Akariko]

Well, Skyblade, you're quite good at making good points.


The various areas are all arranged in a simple and random manner, but the country itself has as detailed a map as any of the others. Look at the map of FFTA: Not the areas, but the outline of the country. Compare that to the maps of FFT and FFXII. You'll see that they're nothing alike.
Well, I'll do that.


You don't know FFXII very well then. The judges in FFXII had no connection to a magical law system, and their main job was to be the personal bodyguards of House Solidor.

Yeah, didn't know that...



Well, all the people's motivations and personalities change as the time goes by, no matter if they are real or in-game. And, if FFTA says that Nono is Montblanc's brother, but none of it is mentioned in FF XII, it could be very well explained by the fact that Nono probably adored Montblanc, who's the leader of a famous and strong clan, and wanted to be realted to him. I don't see any problem about that.
I still suggest you drop this. It adds nothing to your theory and doesn't make a lot of sense, no matter how you look at it.
Kay, point taken, thought discarded...



Doesn't really make much sense to me. The book is supposed to be a nearly omnipotent force capable of reshaping the world. How does a mere collection of dreams contain that much power? Then too, what little we see of the book describes magical incantations and symbols, not anything that could be read or understood. Even Babus, a scholar in a world that contains the people who would have recorded the Grimoire (according to your theories), could make no sense of the phrase Alta Oron Sondus Kameela.

I really need to learn to phrase my thoughts better...
It is a collection of dreams, fused with ancient magic and power to make those dreams real. After all, Li-Grim and the Totema were quite powerful, and all of them were sealed in the book together with the world itself.
As to the fact book contained nothing understandable, well, it's said that it's a very old and ancient book so 1) half of the letters must have faded and 2) the writing style must have changed greatly since then. Like, Shakespear is hard to read even for those who have English as their native language, and the time between FF XII and FFTA is much longer than between Shakespear and nowadays. Finally, the book may be using a different language, or at least a different alphabet. I can write some English words in Russian letters, and nobody would be able to read them, except those who know Russian.
The fact that phrase Alta Oron Sondus Kameela didn't make any sense to Babus doesn't prove the theory wrong in any sense. We don't know how ancient the language is, and we don't know what forces were used to seal all that magic in it. The fact that Babus doesn't know it doesn't mean anything. It is quite enough if one person, the one who finished and sealed the Grimoire knew that spell-writing language. For other ones its knowledge is not nesessary.


If magic dies off when technology grows, the world of FFXII would have been impossible, since it was a combination of technology and magic. At least my addition tried to explain what happened to the powers that once existed.
You're forgetting one important factor there. In FF XII the technology and magic was very well influenced by the races. Like, Moogles are very handy with machines, Nu Mou (though I don't know if that race is present in FF XII) are keen in magic, and Bangaa in weaponary and battle technology. I don't know about the Viera, but they must have made some infuence, too.
But a world without that influence ends up like Earth or FFT and FFTA.


Um, to outside Ivalice? Ivalice is not an entire world. While the maps of all the areas may be different, they all show quite clearly that the world extends beyond just Ivalice. Ivalice is a country, (well, in FFXII, it's actually at least a supercontinent, and could be the entire world, it's talked about as though it was the whole world, but there is no real way to prove/disprove that as far as I know) but it isn't the whole world.
Well, it's only a supposition you told there. True, there are other countries, but: why are moogles called extinct? If they were just driven to other countries, people who visit them would know, right? And besides, having Nu Mou and Bangaa in their country would provide a great advantage to those countries, and they would try and conquer Ivalice. Which didn't happen, and none of the races are present in FFTA in the beginning. Therefore, the races couldn't be driven to other countries, they would have been discovered eventually.



My problem is that I know too much about all the worlds. My knowledge of FFT is a little rusty, but I am quite knowledgable about both FFTA and FFXII. And there are some serious differences in the worlds that need a serious explanation before this idea can be accepted.

Well, your knowledge will be very useful if I want this theory to be accepted. The fact that FF XII RW and TA2 can shade some more light on this subject can't be denied too, you know.
So, the main difference for now is the world map, right? What else?

:save: Selena

Edit: after a talk with Elpizo I realized that another my problem is that I sometimes take things I'm argueing about too personally and it makes me look stupid. At least that's what he says...

[ReloadPsi]

This is like trying to explain and justify the geography of Hyrule: Just suspend your bloody disbelief and enjoy the frickin' game.

[Sam250]

Fact: The storyline in the world of Ivalice goes: FF XII => FF XII RW => FFT => Vagrant Story => FFTA => FFTA2

Since when was this a fact?

Anyway, ignoring Vagrant Story (we know so little about Ivalice from this game, and its conected in such a mior way, its barley worth mentioning), i really like this timeline. FFXII and RW obviosly go together. I don't know much about Tactics, but i've heard that it is said that Moogles are extinct, which would obviosly put it after the Moogle games (we'll come to TA and TA2 in a moment).

Then, I suppose that would be a good place to put VS, actually. There are no Moogles, and it does seem like it happens in a time between the medevil world of Tactics, and the modern world of St. Icalice, so yeah, put that there.

Then, we come to your Grim Grimoire theory- this is the bit i like the most. The idea that the magic contained in the book was, in a way, just a memory of the previous games, and it was these memorys that transformed the town St. Ivalice into the super continant that it once was. I assume that this happened to both Marche and Luso.

As for the tranistion between RW, Tactics, and St. Ivalice, i would just assume that, yeah, the natural evelution of the world, possibly helped by a few Wars and/or natural disasters happened to change the world in this way. I don't think that this is somthing that requires great amount of looking into.

Great theory, i'd belive it.

[demondude]

Stop thinking and start enjoying. :p

[Selena_Akariko]

Fact: The storyline in the world of Ivalice goes: FF XII => FF XII RW => FFT => Vagrant Story => FFTA => FFTA2

Since when was this a fact?

Anyway, ignoring Vagrant Story (we know so little about Ivalice from this game, and its conected in such a mior way, its barley worth mentioning), i really like this timeline. FFXII and RW obviosly go together. I don't know much about Tactics, but i've heard that it is said that Moogles are extinct, which would obviosly put it after the Moogle games (we'll come to TA and TA2 in a moment).

Then, I suppose that would be a good place to put VS, actually. There are no Moogles, and it does seem like it happens in a time between the medevil world of Tactics, and the modern world of St. Icalice, so yeah, put that there.

Then, we come to your Grim Grimoire theory- this is the bit i like the most. The idea that the magic contained in the book was, in a way, just a memory of the previous games, and it was these memorys that transformed the town St. Ivalice into the super continant that it once was. I assume that this happened to both Marche and Luso.

As for the tranistion between RW, Tactics, and St. Ivalice, i would just assume that, yeah, the natural evelution of the world, possibly helped by a few Wars and/or natural disasters happened to change the world in this way. I don't think that this is somthing that requires great amount of looking into.

Great theory, i'd belive it.
Ask Elpizo, I don't know where he got it from. But since he keeps in touch with the latest gaming news, I think this fact is true.

One thing, though. Marche's and Luso's cases are different. Marche is in a dream world created by the Grimoire and Mewt, while Luso travels back in time to the before-catastrophe world.

I'm glad that someone likes my theory :) I was kinda knocked down by Skyblade's critisism.

ReloadPsi, demondude - I did enjoy the game, played it twice, but now that I have enjoyed it I want to think :p

I have a few more things to tell you, Skyblade, and I'll edit the post once I put my thoughts together.

Thanks for your comments, people :)

:save: Selena

[Skyblade]

I'm glad that someone likes my theory :) I was kinda knocked down by Skyblade's critisism.

I have a few more things to tell you, Skyblade, and I'll edit the post once I put my thoughts together.

I criticise because I care. It's a nice theory, and I enjoy this type of discussion. I pointed out problems in an attempt to help you correct them, not because I thought it was a stupid idea. It's a good idea, I just think it needs a little refinement.

[Sam250]

[/quote]
Ask Elpizo, I don't know where he got it from. But since he keeps in touch with the latest gaming news, I think this fact is true.

One thing, though. Marche's and Luso's cases are different. Marche is in a dream world created by the Grimoire and Mewt, while Luso travels back in time to the before-catastrophe world.
[/quote]

I keep up with gaming news also, and i'm pretyt certain that NO offical word has been given on the timeline.

But i don't quite see differance between Marches and Lusos cases- wern't the both dragged to Ivalive via the Grimoire?

Marche- First how do we even know that Mewt was the only one who activated the Grimoire? They all came into contact ith it, and when they came to Ivalive, Marches and Ritzs dreams were furfilled also. So, the Grimoire would be a colection of the dreams and wishes of pre-catastophe Ivalice, and when the Grimoire created a form of Ivalice using these wishs, it read the three childrens wishs also and fufilled them. Hope that makes sense.

Now, i obviously havn't played TA2, but it would seem as if very much the same thing happened? I don't belive that a portion of the story that says differantly has yet been released. Why is Lusos case differant to Marches. Of course, all this could change when the game is realeased, we may get a hint of the truw nature of the Ivalice storyline.

I'm in a bit of a hurry writing, so a hope everything above makes some sort of sense.

[Fynn]

Love your theory Selena. Just wanted to point one thing out, Someone in the forums mentioned it once. Mewt says that 'Final Fantasy' is his favourite game, and Ritz and Marche said they like it too. When Marche appears in the dream in Ivalice he recognizes not only Moogles as a race in FF (well, duh...), but he also says that he knows Bangaa from FF. Now, there is only one FF from the main series in which there are Bangaa - FFXII. My point - what if Marche, Mewt and Ritz played FFXII and the dream Ivalice is loosely based on the FF Ivalice?

[Sam250]

I nice idea I suppsoe, but i preper the idea that, because FFXII was earlier in the timline then St. Ivalice, that the Final Fantasy game that Ritz was talking about was a game based on Ivalices past- you know, like we have Medeveil games about knights and things, based on our past.

See, this theory explains so much! :)

[Elpizo]

I believe SE has confirmed XII to be the first in the timeline. They haven't officially released a timeline but the one I've given is commonly seen as the most accurate one.

Why is Luso's case different from Marche? Because the developers said so. Marche and co ended up in a dreamworld. Luso is taken to the real Ivalice (to get there it either means his homeworld is not Ivalice in present day and that he simply goes to another world (Ivalice) or his world is Ivalice in 'present' day and he does indeed travel back in time to FF XII's era). I've read this in an interview on IGN I believe, but I'm fully sure that this is a fact. I'll try to find a quote.

I guess we won't know exactly how it is with FFTA2's world and the Ivalice Luso goes to until the game is released in english. =/

[Selena_Akariko]

Well, Skyblade, it appears that I have solved the map problem.

The answer is very simple, actually.

FFTA Ivalice does not have to cover the whole territory of the former Ivalice (FF XII and FFT)

The FF XII map I used is not in-game, but still, if you look at the peninsula in the frame, you'll notice the similarities between it and the FFTA Ivalice.

As for the FFT map, the peninsula seems to be in a different location, but that can be explained by the fact that science has been thrown centuries back from the before-catastrophe time, Geography included.

Another proof to the connection between all the Ivalices (them all being one world) are the writings on the FFT map (if they aren't just Japanese names of the locations and countries, of course, but I doubt it). They look very similiar to the writings we've seen in Mewt's Grimoire next to the drawings of the races, which was created in the before-catastrophe times. So if those writings are really of the same language, they serve as a proof to the connection of the worlds.
The fact that none of the four could read the writings in the Grimoire is explained by the fact that this language/writing style was discarded with the invention of Latin letters (remember, Ritz thought that 'Alta Oron Sondus Kameela' was Latin or something).

This gave me another interesting thought about the Grimoire, by the way. What if the 'later additions' ('in Latin or something') were made in Latin letters so that nobody could read it and unseal the magic before it's time? If the Grimoire was made in times when Latin letters were just invented and only few could read them, then it's no wonder that the sealing spell was written in them.
I have to work some more on this thought, though.

Thank you for your comments, people.

:save: Selena

[Slothy]

First: Geographically, the Ivalices in the various games are quite dissimilar. In FFT and FFXII, Ivalice is a huge country, with rivers and lakes but no real bordering seas. In FFTA and FFTA2, Ivalice is a clearly delineated peninsula. You offer no explanation as to why there would be such drastic continental shifts in between the games.

I don't have the time to read the whole thread just now, so forgive me if this was covered earlier on.

For the record, there's nothing in any of the games that states that what we see is the entire world of Ivalice. FFT quite clearly doesn't cover the entire world of Ivalice, but rather a small section of it as the map continues to extend out to the East, and who knows what could be to the North, South or West. The land in FFXII also extends farther North and South than we ever see, and for all we know, there could be other continents to the East and West.

Also, given enough time, and or a big enough catastrophe, the geography could change that much given enough time. Just look at what Kefka managed in FFVI.

[McLovin']

Ahem:

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4562/ivalicecu2.jpg

[Selena_Akariko]

Uh... That map's confusing me a bit... Are you sure it goes *that* way?

:save: Selena

[McLovin']

Oh yes it does. In both FFT and FF12 they showed Ordallia. In FFT it was on the east side and in FF12 it was shown on the west. Thus you get that something like that.

[Selena_Akariko]

Well, the map you made still isn't good. First of all, it seemes to me that they are done in different scales, and secondly, judging by the straight lines on the FF XII map, the top of it isn't pointing north.

But thanks for the idea, I'll try to put the two maps together as you did.

:save: Selena