Why a lot of fans don't like this game *SPOILERS*

[Mr Cactuar]

Now don't deny it. Alot of Final Fantasy fans do not like this game. Many fans of FFXII have asked why? Well here are my reasons and opinions as to why much of the Final Fantasy community felt disappointed with this game.

1. The music.

Really. Ask yourself. Do you remember much of the music from FFXII? The only tunes I remember and have bothered to download are the Main Theme and the Battle on the Big Bridge. Why the music isn't up to standards? No Nobue Uematsu. The composer for all the music in FFXII was Hitoshi Sakimoto. The only piece that was done by Uematsu was the Main Theme and Battle and the Big Bridge. Hmm...

2. Random Battles. If it ain't broke, don't replace it.

Sure. They can get annoying. They can get tedious. But it's what makes Final Fantasy gameplay, Final Fantasy gameplay. This new method of killing monsters really arrogated me. The majority of the time you'd be fighting 1 monster at a time. Boring. And some of the monsters are just pathetic. I remember when I first played FFX, my first FF, I got to the calm lands. I ventured west before saving and came across a mighty Malboro. It was the weakest of all Malboro species yet it was still 2-3 times bigger then my characters. In FFXII, the Malboros are pathetic. They're roughly as tall as Vaan and just die so easily. Many other monsters had this effect too. And where are Cactuars and Toberries?

3. Where is the love?

The greatest argument in the Final Fantasy community; did Cloud love Aeris or Tifa? Love stories make Final Fantasy that much more better. Look at FFX. That love story made that game. FFVIII's story basically was the love story. Last time I checked, these 3 FF's are the most loved ones around. Hmm...

4. Whacky doodly piddly pop.

That made no sense to you? Really neither does the story off FFXII. Basically I can sum it all up here. Go collect object. Come back. Destroy object. Go do thing. Go collect object.... The idea of FFXII is really good. 2 warring nations, with your nation inbetween and trying to find the peace. It was just paved out for the player so badly, and ineffectually that you just lost touch with it all. The characters were mostly brilliant (Balthier and Gabranth come to mind) but they developed poorly. Ashe had to be told to do everything, Vaan was uninteresting and Penelo was mostly forgotten about for a large majority of the game. It was there, but it just wasn't built on.

This was my 5th Final Fantasy. Me and 3 friends of mine, who also play FF all bought this game at roughly the same time. We talked about it, we laughed about it and we enjoyed it. But, for me, It just didn't touch me like others did. While this game has its good points, I do believe that they could have done better.

Lets give good luck to XIII.

[demondude]

Though I agree with some of the arguments I still liked this game.
I didn't have any problem with the music I thought it was very atmospheric and I loved the new battle system.The only thing I disliked was the breaking of some traditions like tonberry being turned into a ship.

Plus cactuars were in the game but they look different I can't remember the name however.

[Vivisteiner]

1. Music

Answer: Sure, the music was weaker than Nobuo's. But I liked many other themes in it. Not up to Nobuo's high standard, but still decent enough.

2. Random battles

Answer: Random battles are less enjoyable to the battle system of FFXII IMO. Sure, they're fun as well, but the fluidity is just not the same. Im sure a lot of people will agree with me. FFXII's battle system is the best in any Final Fantasy.

3. Love stories

Answer: Who needs love? Sure, emotion is important and I felt that FFXII was lacking that, but love? A waste. FFVIII had crappy, unrealistic love. The love in other games was mostly genuine(even if cliched), but I dont follow your argument that love is necessary. If anything, the love stories were getting stale. I think the political nature of FFXII freshened things up considerably. And no, the love stories didnt make any FF game apart from perhaps FFVIII. And that love was complete :skull::skull::skull::skull:.

4. Im not even gonna copy that :skull::skull::skull::skull: down.

Answer: There is something called intelligence. And if you follow a story carefully enough, you'll understand it. Maybe not completely first time, but if you replay it, more and more of the pieces fit. And, as I know all too well, the story does make perfect sense. Sure, the character developement is lacking, but what is really interesting is the politics. The individual wills of the key figures in Archadia, Rozarria and Dalmasca and how they clash. You can pick these up with subtle references without them being spelt out to you like in FFX. (Dont get me wrong, I love that game). Although I do wish there had been a few extra cutscenes just to add a few extra elements to the story. Anyway, I thought the story was good.

If I came across as rude its because Im sick of the endless topics of infantile bashing.


One thing Im worried about the Fabula Nova Crystallis: Im Nomura sick. But still, he's good at making plots (even if I dont much like his character designs). Lets hope he doesnt disappoint.

If you're curious as to my opinions...

FFIX: 100/100
FFX = FFXII: 95/100
FFVII = 93/100
FFVIII = 89/100

I would give FFIX more if I could. Because the other four game combined aren't as good as it.

[demondude]

Vivisteiner your argument about ff9 being better then the other four combined is..............









Absolutely true I lift my hat to you fellow ff9 lover.

[Slothy]

2. Random Battles. If it ain't broke, don't replace it.

Sure. They can get annoying. They can get tedious. But it's what makes Final Fantasy gameplay, Final Fantasy gameplay. This new method of killing monsters really arrogated me. The majority of the time you'd be fighting 1 monster at a time. Boring. And some of the monsters are just pathetic. I remember when I first played FFX, my first FF, I got to the calm lands. I ventured west before saving and came across a mighty Malboro. It was the weakest of all Malboro species yet it was still 2-3 times bigger then my characters. In FFXII, the Malboros are pathetic. They're roughly as tall as Vaan and just die so easily. Many other monsters had this effect too. And where are Cactuars and Toberries?

I agree with pretty much everything Vivisteiner said (though I think I enjoyed the soundtrack more than most), so I won't rehash everything he said. I will say that Random battles are broken. I hate them with a burning passion even.

They absolutely do not make FF gameplay what it is. If anything, they completely detract from the enjoyment of the gameplay. I'm willing to tolerate them in older games, where there really wasn't a viable alternative at the time. In those cases, they were a necessary evil, and I can live with that. These days though, there is absolutely no reason to have them in games. They pull you out of the game making for a much less immersive experience, and are also incredibly annoying when you just feel like running through an area uninterrupted (particularly if you need to stop playing and are just looking for a save point).

As for monster types, I don't really care if there were no Cactuars or Tonberries, or if they made the majority of Malboros easy to kill; there were still plenty of times I was fighting multiple enemies at once, and there were plenty that made horrible experiences with Malboros from prior games seem like a cakewalk.

[ReloadPsi]

With the exception of the point about random battles... ah, who the hell am I kidding? I totally agree with all of that. Though I gotta admit I loved the music in Rabanastre and will never forget it. Probably because I didn't hear all the game's soundtrack, I gave up half way through the game.

The overall plotline was a case of tl;dr, in that I paid no attention to it because it was so smeggin' dull.

What a lot of people don't realise about the new battle system is that, aside from the monsters not being random, it was just FFX-2's system with free movement: Everything still happened on an ATB gauge but actions could happen simultaneously. So few people realised this, and I'll bet loads of the people who pan this battle system admit to liking the one in X-2. However, running around and then having to stand still for a bit while you wait for your party to eventually take a swipe at an enemy really did get old after a while.

Unfortunately I will probably never complete this game and see the ending, but does it matter? I won't understand the ending anyway.

[Jessweeee♪]

It's just very different from the other games :p


....the story reminded me more of the older ones than the newer ones if you ask me.

[Elpizo]

My guess as to why this game gets so much hate is because people expected exactly more of the same and didn't get it. Thus they were dissapointed. I wasn't disappointed one bit, but maybe that's because I played XII before X. I liked almost everything about XII, except the random treasures. I liked a lot of the music, especially 'Battle for Freedom' and the story was great. And XII easily has the best Cid in the entire series.

The same can't be said about X however, which, after VI, is the worst FF ever in my humble opinion.

[Mr Cactuar]

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed playing XII. I'm just giving reasons as to why I didn't find it as good as others.

And the battle system really wasn't that good. Black magic was basically useless, and with the right gambits you can play the game without touching the buttons other then control stick.

[Elpizo]

Black Magic is useless in many FF games. In VIII barely anybody uses magic, aside from maybe aura or some cure spells. At least I never did. In X I didn't either, Tidus and Auron could handle it just fine with Yuna to back em up (depends on who you play with, of course). In III summons are superior, same in IV and V. In I a black mage with Flare will never hit as hard as a hasted Warrior with Excalibur. In II I never bothered leveling up magic, weapons did it better. VI's saving grace is Ultima. In IX Black Magic is good because characters are job specific and summons aren't automaticlly superior to it.

It's has always been like this. Melee attacks are in almost every FF game superior to magic. Black Magic ceases to be great end-game, in most FF games. XII just made it so that you didn't always have to press the confirm button to use your best attack (namely: attack), that's all.

[Heath]

FFXII was my twelth Final Fantasy (1,2, 4-10 and TA), but it's quickly become one of my favourites. The music was fantastic. It's not Uematsu, but that's not a bad thing. Uematsu has some fantastic music, but to say the music isn't good would be a huge disservice to the composers of the soundtrack. The music slotted seamlessly with the environments and so the music added to the overall ambiance of every area that you visited. It didn't define the area, it added and developed the individual regions of Ivalice. The fact that the scenery and the music complimented each other so well in, what was, one of the most immersing and impressive Final Fantasy worlds yet was a definite plus to me. There are numerous great pieces of music, such as the Sochen Cave Palace, Seeking Power and The Forgotten Capital that I really enjoyed listening to and enhance the experience of exploring Ivalice which was, in my view, one of the most enjoyable aspects of the whole game.

The absence of random battles were also another enjoyable thing. In dungeons it would mean you might have to plan the route you'd take because you'd be bump into different monsters depending on the way in which you went. It also seemed a lot more natural and added to the overall depth of the environments. I mean, random battles are terribly artificial, really. If you were actually exploring a temple infested with monsters, sure, they might jump out of nowhere in a deserted corridor, but chances are they'd be wandering around the dungeon itself, using magic upon themselves and prowling around looking for intruders. It made the game quicker and added to the flow of the game, while random battles are, let's face it, fairly disruptive.

As Vivisteiner, the absence of a love story doesn't weaken the game at all. Actually, I quite welcomed this change. Too many films and computer games these days feel the need to throw in love interests and love stories when they aren't really necessary to the plot and serve as a distraction, whereas FFXII departs from this rather successfully. Sure, I enjoyed the love story of the other games, but it was a breath of fresh air not to have one.

As for the story, I found it to be terribly engaging and enjoyable. History is one of my passions in life and the study of historical conflicts often means examining the domestic and foreign causes of strife between the nations. That we are given a rather complete picture of a conflict that develops and escalates as time goes on and is effecting all the citizens of Ivalice instead of just the party and a group of choice nobles was rather nice and in my view a fair bit more realistic. The game is not dull, it's just a bit more complex and needs more attention paid to it than some of the others.

FFXII is a fantastic game and I think some people slate it more than it deserves.

[Ashley Schovitz]

I like the game a lot, but only for it's battlesystem. It has the best battlesystyem to date, but it lacks in music and story. The story had a good concept, but it was poorly executed. I was really pulled into the story in the beginning, but once you start going on with a full party and start hitting the fields and dungeons then the story lacks because it takes way too long to come to another cutscene or conversation. The lack of random battles is no dissapointment to me, I don't really care if they have them or not as long as they're paced well like in VIII to me it seemed the most well paced and IV seemed very fustrating with the rate of battle screens. Eventhough with the dissapointment to the story and music, the graphics and gameplay help it so much that it's over VII in my book.

[Jessweeee♪]

I wouldn't say the game was bad, it just really depends on what you like :p

Not one game in the series was bad. I mean, look at the sales! A lot of people hated FFXII a lot of people liked FFXII, same with every game in the series n.n




As for the black magic thing, I never really used magic much except in FFX. Used Lulu just as much as everyone else ('cept Kimahri, of course, I never gave him a purpose in battle) and she always seemed to have enough MP to use magic in place of Attack every turn :P

[Vivisteiner]

The one thing about Final Fantasy, as Jeswee said, is that it comes with a high production value. Whilst fans might not like the different directions it goes in, it will never be a bad game.

Apart from FFX-2, which is emotionally scarring. XD. Couldnt resist the jibe, hehe.


Black Magic I only used in FFIX and sometimes FFX. (Flans!)

About the music. Actually, I liked it. I just thought that a few flat tracks brought it down, such as in The Tomb of Raithwall. Also, it lacked a bit of variet.

I liked the battle music for Ozmone Plains and Giza Plains. 'Symphonic Poem Hope' is beautiful.

[Slothy]

Black Magic I only used in FFIX and sometimes FFX. (Flans!)

About the music. Actually, I liked it. I just thought that a few flat tracks brought it down, such as in The Tomb of Raithwall. Also, it lacked a bit of variet.

I liked the battle music for Ozmone Plains and Giza Plains. 'Symphonic Poem Hope' is beautiful.

Are you and I the same person or something? I agree completely, both about the black magic (I rarely used in it many FF's except IX, and occasionally in X as Vivisteiner said. It really isn't all that useful in most of the games except for rare cases when an enemy has a weakness to some spell that makes it die really easily), and about the soundtrack. In fact, I just ordered the soundtrack today. Yeah there were some less than stellar tracks, but it was still a great soundtrack overall. I could say the same about pretty much every FF soundtrack except VIII, where the less than stellar tracks seemed to be most of the album. I think most people were too busy complaining that it wasn't done by Uematsu to notice the soundtrack.

[Vivisteiner]

^Not quite the same Im afraid (or am I glad?). I thought all Nobuo's soundtracks were stellar. Save perhaps FFX.


But yeah, I think Sakimoto did a good job in the end.

[Bolivar]

I think the overarching reason why some people didn't like it as much is because it deviated away from what Final Fantasy has become and is changing into over the last 20 years. The truth is, the Final Fantasy Ivalice games (FFT, VS, FFTA, FFXII) are different from the FF series. They're both good series but their feel and objective aren't the same.

The music is the best example of this. Hitoshi Sakimoto is a great composer, but his music is better suited to strategy RPGs rather than Final Fantasy type games.

To me, random encounters go hand in hand with what I'm trying to get at with the above point on music - A Final Fantasy just isn't a Final Fantasy without a killer battle theme and an even more killer Boss Theme. The Boss theme was very un-cinematic and the battles lack the excitement of previous games for sharing the same song as the area it's on.

Look at Final Fantasy II - the Mysidian Tower and Castle Pandemonium tracks just give you this epic feel that you're progressing towards some truth or goal whereas in XII you're just in the game.

The game was also a step back from what the developers have been trying to accomplish with the way in which this game places a huge difference between gameplay and cutscenes. Beginning with VII, cut scenes lead into, picked up from, and were just in the middle of gameplay, making the entire game one seamless experience. In XII, it's almost like Xenosaga, where you play for a little bit and get rewarded with a movie. I don't like games like that. Let me feel the experience all the while I'm playing the game.

XII is maybe in my top 5 FF games but I have to admit I much prefer the way Final Fantasy has been before this. As far as a love story, I'm not sure if it's necessary, but in the example of VIII, it's exactly that which allowed the game to really reach out and take hold of the player's emotions and leave you at its mercy. this is a great game, but it's different, and I think that's what turned off alot of people. People like to get what they pay for, you know?

[Mr Cactuar]

I think the overarching reason why some people didn't like it as much is because it deviated away from what Final Fantasy has become and is changing into over the last 20 years. The truth is, the Final Fantasy Ivalice games (FFT, VS, FFTA, FFXII) are different from the FF series. They're both good series but their feel and objective aren't the same.

The music is the best example of this. Hitoshi Sakimoto is a great composer, but his music is better suited to strategy RPGs rather than Final Fantasy type games.

To me, random encounters go hand in hand with what I'm trying to get at with the above point on music - A Final Fantasy just isn't a Final Fantasy without a killer battle theme and an even more killer Boss Theme. The Boss theme was very un-cinematic and the battles lack the excitement of previous games for sharing the same song as the area it's on.

Look at Final Fantasy II - the Mysidian Tower and Castle Pandemonium tracks just give you this epic feel that you're progressing towards some truth or goal whereas in XII you're just in the game.

The game was also a step back from what the developers have been trying to accomplish with the way in which this game places a huge difference between gameplay and cutscenes. Beginning with VII, cut scenes lead into, picked up from, and were just in the middle of gameplay, making the entire game one seamless experience. In XII, it's almost like Xenosaga, where you play for a little bit and get rewarded with a movie. I don't like games like that. Let me feel the experience all the while I'm playing the game.

XII is maybe in my top 5 FF games but I have to admit I much prefer the way Final Fantasy has been before this. As far as a love story, I'm not sure if it's necessary, but in the example of VIII, it's exactly that which allowed the game to really reach out and take hold of the player's emotions and leave you at its mercy. this is a great game, but it's different, and I think that's what turned off alot of people. People like to get what they pay for, you know?

Exactly what I was trying to say about the random battles.

I'm not trying to say that the love stories are needed. I also hate when they get poorly tacked on. I love it when its done right e.g FFX. It doesn't just compliment the story, it guides it.

The thing about the storyline in XII is that, like people have said, it was poorly executed. I just lost track of things at times when I was off doing Marks and other side quests.

The battle system was poorly executed in my opinion. While it was fresh and sometimes fun, it was just too easy at some points. I don't care much for difficulty in Final Fantasy just as long as it isn't ridiculously easy, and I swear I had like 3 game overs tops.

I'm not saying that the music in XII is bad, just that it was mediocre compared to other soundtracks. Sure this may be personal opinion, but it is a regular gripe that people find with XII.

Also some people are not reading the title of the topic, I'm giving reasons as to why fans of FF may not like this particular one.

[Tabris]

This might sound stupid, but... there were still random battles in XII, there were just some changes in how they were executed.

[Dragonsoul]

Graphics - Perfect in all aspects

Sound - The music is great but I think that Nobuo Uematsu had a little better stuff. I think Hitoshi Sakimoto's score may be underrated because he is compared to Nobuo Uematasu. But imagine if this score was put out for a game of less, but still very high, popularity, such as Xenosaga 3 or Valkyrie Profile 2: Silmeria, people would praise the soundtrack.

Controls - I think they were great but there is no option to invert the camera. I also prefer more configuration options. Also, there is no page up and page down assigned to L1/R1 in menus, for some reason.

Battle System - I think the battle system is great! Some people don't like the style as much but I do.

Story - I didn't like the story as much. For some people that like it, don't get defensive too much about it, there are many people that don't like the story. The Executive Producer of FF XII stated that he was disappointed that the story wasn't as good in FF XII, because of creative differences in the development team.

Characters - The characters could use some improvement. Some are great like Balthier and Cid. Some don't do much, like Vaan and Penelo and Fran(That's three main characters!).

Sidequests - This game has really great and long sidequests which take dozens of hours, which is great

Polish - This game is highly polished, I can't explain too much about this, but there are a lot of little things that are added in the game and stuff that is great.

The game I give 9/10 and the only big flaws I give it is that I prefer better story and characters. :)

FF XIII is being made by main Final Fantasy team, who did X, then X-2. They also kinda split up to do some random work on some Kingdom Hearts games and the FF VII Compilation, this is at the same time that XIII is being developed though. By the way FF V XIII is the Kingdom Hearts team. And FF Agito XIII is the same exact team from FF VII: Before Crisis, FF VII: Crisis Core, and Kingdom Hearts: Coded.

[marysonnie]

1. The music.

Actually, I really like "Seeking Power" and "The Golmore Jungle." I agree, overall the music isn't quite what I expected, but it fits the game well, for better or worse, in some people's opinions. This isn't a soundtrack I can just listen to straight through, which is sad because I pre-ordered it and listened to it before I played. Nothing really stood out then, and only after playing do I really care about some of the tracks as stand-alone pieces of music.

2. Random Battles.

I give them props for trying something different. I don't like random battles, if only because they're random and they're disruptive. I do miss my giant Malboros and their lethal bad breath (this game's bad breath was a joke). No FFXII enemies reached the iconic status that Cactaurs, Tonberries, and even Yans (goddamned yans) have reached. I really truly missed being pelted with needles and stabbed with kitchen knives...

3. Where is the love?

"Last time I checked, these 3 FF's are the most loved ones around. Hmm..."

Um, no. I pretty much agree more or less with everything else except that statement. FFVIII is my personal favorite, but it's not the "most loved." The other two you mentioned are very mainstream but also strongly disliked amongst many hardcore Final Fantasy fans I know. I always got the impression that FFVI was most loved, incidentally. And I think FFIV and FFIX were better than FFVII and FFX, but that's purely opinion.

Love stories are nice, I agree, but I don't know how they would have fit into a game that attempted to be this epic. The only real romantic relationship, Ashe and her husband, was nicely done. I strongly feel that Balthier and Fran are more than just friends, but whatever the nature of their relationship, it was also very nuanced and subtle, which I appreciated. Drace and Gabranth was also similarly handled, and I really wish I knew more about them.

4. Whacky doodly piddly pop.

God, the pacing of this game sucked a lot. Character development was uneven, and the storyline was very poorly realized in parts. Fran, Drace, Balthier, Gabranth, and Larsa were my favorites. I didn't really care for Ashe, Rossler, or Vaan. Penelo was okay, as were Basch, Reddas, and Al-Cid. but no one was developed well enough for my tastes. I didn't even like Ashe at first, and she's my least favorite main character in this and any Final Fantasy game.

I criticize this game heavily but I really enjoy it. I've just got a long list of grievances with it because my expectations were so high.

[VeloZer0]

Music -
Like many have said before I found the music to be unremarkable. It fit everywhere, but never stood out. I also agree with whoever posted about not having a kick ass battle music.

Battles -
I'm not particularly attached to random battles, but there are, however, a great deal of pros that go along with random battles that map battles can't possibly compete with. First of all, as noted, is the scale of battles. Monsters can come in packs, scale size wise better, and it allows for creation of more intricate dungeons. All the areas in FFXII had to be wide open which to me made the world feel far more sparse and boring. There are some best of both world solutions, such as Chrono Trigger witch had all the benefits of random battles, but mechanics of encounter battles.

Love -
I absolutely abhor the idea that love must be a central plot focus. I think that was one of the few things they did right in FFXII. Not to say I object to it's presence in games, I felt the love story's in VI and VII added quite a bit to the game, but I found the central nature of VIII and X's love stories ruined the games for me.

Plot -
Through most of the game I mostly felt I was going somewhere to do something because somebody told me so. Most of the actions I was taken were just because I was told to, not because I was brought to believe there was a good reason to. The whole plot stunk of apathy to me. In trying to make a plot of grey instead of black and white all that happened was I felt like it didn't really mater if I undertook my journey or not.

The central plot was liberating Dalmasca, however the game completely failed to convince me the Vayne was a worse ruler for Dalmasca than Ashe. Lets face it, if he invaded the country and in only a few years started to make the populace like him I would say he is doing a fairly good job. Compared to young Ashe, I would say he is a far more experienced ruler and infinitely more qualified for the job. My plot beefs for this game could fill an entire thread, so I'll just stop here.

[Yar]

I liked to play XII, but it didn't feel like an FF to me. No random battles? WTF?

I'd rather play any other FF than this one. Gee, thanks Square, alienate your original fanbase by overhauling a product they already enjoy. Looks like they've fucked XIII up too.

[Raebus]

Oh god, they've taken away something that's been plaguing RPG's games since the SNES era and further back. Damn you square for trying to do something different! For taking a stale random battle turned based system and changing it into an exciting battle system. YOU HAVE DONE WRONG. >=(

If anyone points out anything wasn't correct in that post, possibly the "since the SNES era", I don't give a crap, randomly guessing.

[remnant1]

music:i love the music,i think it goes well with the feel of the environments.but if nobuo uematsuy did it,it would be better

battles:as far as the combat goes,i think its sweet.sure,it breaks from the traditional methods,but thats what square was aiming for.personnaly i like to see my enimie,scan them(hit left lol)then devise my stradegy,all in real time.and as for fighting only one enemie at a time,i like to herd alot of enimies together and then fight.

for love,id have to agree with some other ppl here and say that this stgory doesent need it,it has other types of relationships that add to the goodness.

and for the story,i love it.its not AS good as ffX in my opinion,but its still pretty awsome.everybting really dosent unravel until neer the end.

this is my 10th final fantasy

[Skyblade]

Now don't deny it. Alot of Final Fantasy fans do not like this game. Many fans of FFXII have asked why? Well here are my reasons and opinions as to why much of the Final Fantasy community felt disappointed with this game.

1. The music.

2. Random Battles. If it ain't broke, don't replace it.

3. Where is the love?

4. Poor Storytelling

1. I didn't find the music as good as most other FFs. It's not entirely composers though. It's also because of points 2, 3, and 4. The best music from any of the FF games has always been the battle music. But, with their move away from random battles, they also moved away from battle music. With the exception of bosses, Espers, and a couple of marks (like Gilgamesh and his awesome Clash on the Big Bridge), there was no battle music. So, a lot of the great songs had no chance. Sure, the pretty world exploring music is there, but none of the hard hitting battle themes are. Then too, with a plot with no love story, and little if any emotional connection that I can see at all, the other category of great songs, the story builders, got axed as well. There were no moments in the game that would have been appropriate for the truly emotional songs that tear your heart out, because the story lacked the emotional involvement of other FFs.

2. I didn't mind the lack of random encounters as much as I minded the gimmickry. Teleporting enemies should have been left out. I don't mind fighting groups of enemies, but being able to teleport across the entire room and force you to either flee or fight every enemy in the room was wrong. The best thing about random encounters is that there was some control over them, and you wouldn't suddenly have an uber enemy join a fight while you were fighting random mobs (the few times things like that did happen, they were scripted, and very rare). Then too, no other FF game has ever had to rely on the cheap, gimmicky tactics that make up the staple moves of all of the powerful foes. You could always protect against instant death, now you can't. You could always block attacks, now you can't. The games never had unstoppable tactics. There were plans and strategies to get around everything, if you thought about it enough. Now it's all just luck (and that is why I quit playing the game).

3. Yeah, the lack of a love story did not help the game. Love stories have been a staple of FFs since the beginning, and I would have liked to see one in this game as well. Not that a game needs a love story to be good, I'm just a sappy romantic who prefers them.

4. I didn't find too much trouble with the story making sense (except that I failed to understand why no one was willing to put a bullet in Vayne's head). The biggest problem with it was that there was little to no emotional involvement. No love story is fine, but give the characters some big emotional scenes.

[Heath]

4. I didn't find too much trouble with the story making sense (except that I failed to understand why no one was willing to put a bullet in Vayne's head). The biggest problem with it was that there was little to no emotional involvement. No love story is fine, but give the characters some big emotional scenes.

Yeah, I think I'd agree with you actually. I mean, at times there were fleeting moments of emotion but a lot of the time things simply didn't stand out. Certain scenes with Balthier and Vaan (over Reks) were notable, but I can't think of many things that stick in your mind like when Red XIII sees his father in FFVII or when Garnet sees Brahne die in FFIX for just two examples off the top of my head.

[Slothy]

3. Yeah, the lack of a love story did not help the game. Love stories have been a staple of FFs since the beginning, and I would have liked to see one in this game as well. Not that a game needs a love story to be good, I'm just a sappy romantic who prefers them.

They have not been in FF since the beginning. FFI-III didn't have one, and FFIV would have been the first. FFV also didn't have one; FFVI had one, though it was hardly the main focus of the game, and was never as blatant or forced as many of the others. FFVII and on up until X obviously had their love stories (each of varying quality), while FFXII didn't (we'll exclude FFXI here). So essentially, not only have love stories not been present in the series since the beginning, only about half of the titles in total have even featured a love story at all. Love stories aren't integral to an FF.

[Bolivar]

Heyyo Heath that's very true!


Oh god, they've taken away something that's been plaguing RPG's games since the SNES era and further back. Damn you square for trying to do something different! For taking a stale random battle turned based system and changing it into an exciting battle system. YOU HAVE DONE WRONG. >=(

If anyone points out anything wasn't correct in that post, possibly the "since the SNES era", I don't give a crap, randomly guessing.

I disagree, but no, not on the SNES part. While the battle system in certain FFs was a little slow, I seriously disagree that this made them more exciting. Probably the biggest flaw in this is the music factor. almost every FF before this had really intense battle music (FFVI boss theme maybe the epitome of this), while the one in this one really didn't add any suspense considering except for boss fights, there was no battle music. FFVII is also an example of how the system used the camera and ATB to create a really interactive, fast paced, really intense battle sequences. This one, it was boring watching your characters fight, even the battle animations had to be made less epic due to constraints with ADB.



Um, no. I pretty much agree more or less with everything else except that statement. FFVIII is my personal favorite, but it's not the "most loved." The other two you mentioned are very mainstream but also strongly disliked amongst many hardcore Final Fantasy fans I know. I always got the impression that FFVI was most loved, incidentally. And I think FFIV and FFIX were better than FFVII and FFX, but that's purely opinion.


If you were only talking about the internet, I would agree with you, but in real life, I know only 1 person who really cherishes VI like that. Every "hardcore FF fan" I know outside of these boards picks either VII or X (not as much) at the top of the list.

[Skyblade]

3. Yeah, the lack of a love story did not help the game. Love stories have been a staple of FFs since the beginning, and I would have liked to see one in this game as well. Not that a game needs a love story to be good, I'm just a sappy romantic who prefers them.

They have not been in FF since the beginning. FFI-III didn't have one, and FFIV would have been the first. FFV also didn't have one; FFVI had one, though it was hardly the main focus of the game, and was never as blatant or forced as many of the others. FFVII and on up until X obviously had their love stories (each of varying quality), while FFXII didn't (we'll exclude FFXI here). So essentially, not only have love stories not been present in the series since the beginning, only about half of the titles in total have even featured a love story at all. Love stories aren't integral to an FF.

True, I exaggerated a little. And while V didn't have one, I have come to expect them since IV. They haven't always been there, but they have a lot, and I have always liked them.

[The Unknown Guru]

As for the story, I found it to be terribly engaging and enjoyable. History is one of my passions in life and the study of historical conflicts often means examining the domestic and foreign causes of strife between the nations. That we are given a rather complete picture of a conflict that develops and escalates as time goes on and is effecting all the citizens of Ivalice instead of just the party and a group of choice nobles was rather nice and in my view a fair bit more realistic. The game is not dull, it's just a bit more complex and needs more attention paid to it than some of the others.

I don't think I could have said it better myself. I love history, especially military history. When it's the main focus of a game's story, then I have no choice but to immerse myself in it. While the game didn't do the best job of developing the main characters in the party, it did a great job portraying how everything is happening in the big picture.

[Yar]

The Random Battles were not plaguing the series! That's what the whole series was! The battles did seem slower in the PSX generation, especially IX, but they were quicker in the NES/SNES years. Of course some of us don't like the change. This was the way we've been playing it for twenty years.

[FFFFsephychibi]

okay, I just played this game about 20 minutes ago and after about 7 minutes of gameplay I had to turn the thing off.

I'm sorry. It's so horrid. I have put my time into it as well. I'm about 50 hours into the game, and can't finish it. I (sadly) think even the characters (who have no voice overs) in final fantasy 6 have MORE PERSONALITY than the characters from ff 12 :/ These characters lack everything that makes them a final fantasy character. Final fantasy is known for such lovable/likable characters. Even the bad guys have loving fanbases (does this game even have a main villain???) Though I'am very fond of Fran's look/ore. And I enjoy balthier's accent/sly remarks... when I catch them xD What was cool is that they aren't assigned a certain role (the whole license thinger), so you can decide each ones fate. It gets severely boring after a while though if you don't know where your character is going.

The game was good when I actively played it, but it's very difficult to pick back up on. Nothing is really too memorable. Except the in-active scenery. The battles were sometimes quite fun, I loved loading my character with gamebits and watching them fail. It was defiantly a challenge. I do wish they would resort back to ATB or at least a controlled area. Also some of the monsters are challenging but for the most part are pushovers. I can't remember any bosses except the wall one. I died several times :)

I like the music for the most part (it needs to change during battle) You know to build the excitement, raise your blood, etc...

I will not share my opinion about the storyline, I don't know/remember anything, except a very vague word: Empire.

Overall, this game could be very enjoyable if I maybe had paid closer attention too what ever I missed. Frankly, most of the time I honestly felt distracted, by the voice acting (which was phenomenal) or rather really big words I'm not familiar with. Yet this isn't my least favorite ff, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just not praising this one with love it doesn't deserve. Or I'm just not using my dictionary enough. I just feel all square gives a s*** about now a days is GRAPHICS GRAPHICS GRAPHICS. Ugh. At least with this game. And anonymous up coming releases.


Like someone said, it's good to be refreshed with something new :)

[Rostum]

The Random Battles were not plaguing the series! That's what the whole series was! The battles did seem slower in the PSX generation, especially IX, but they were quicker in the NES/SNES years. Of course some of us don't like the change. This was the way we've been playing it for twenty years.

IMO, and in the opinion of others I have spoken to, random battles are tedious and tiresome these days. The change in the more real-time battles is a very good welcome to the series.

Who cares if it worked for the NES/SNES games? If they do things like that and never change, then the series would get completely boring.

[Remedy]

we expect more love stories!
but hey, I've never seen it bad game at all
I was addicted to it for months.

[Raebus]

okay, I just played this game about 20 minutes ago and after about 7 minutes of gameplay I had to turn the thing off.

I'm sorry. It's so horrid. I have put my time into it as well. I'm about 50 hours into the game, and can't finish it. I (sadly) think even the characters (who have no voice overs) in final fantasy 6 have MORE PERSONALITY than the characters from ff 12 :/ These characters lack everything that makes them a final fantasy character. Final fantasy is known for such lovable/likable characters. Even the bad guys have loving fanbases (does this game even have a main villain???) Though I'am very fond of Fran's look/ore. And I enjoy balthier's accent/sly remarks... when I catch them xD What was cool is that they aren't assigned a certain role (the whole license thinger), so you can decide each ones fate. It gets severely boring after a while though if you don't know where your character is going.

The game was good when I actively played it, but it's very difficult to pick back up on. Nothing is really too memorable. Except the in-active scenery. The battles were sometimes quite fun, I loved loading my character with gamebits and watching them fail. It was defiantly a challenge. I do wish they would resort back to ATB or at least a controlled area. Also some of the monsters are challenging but for the most part are pushovers. I can't remember any bosses except the wall one. I died several times :)

I like the music for the most part (it needs to change during battle) You know to build the excitement, raise your blood, etc...

I will not share my opinion about the storyline, I don't know/remember anything, except a very vague word: Empire.

Overall, this game could be very enjoyable if I maybe had paid closer attention too what ever I missed. Frankly, most of the time I honestly felt distracted, by the voice acting (which was phenomenal) or rather really big words I'm not familiar with. Yet this isn't my least favorite ff, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just not praising this one with love it doesn't deserve. Or I'm just not using my dictionary enough. I just feel all square gives a s*** about now a days is GRAPHICS GRAPHICS GRAPHICS. Ugh. At least with this game. And anonymous up coming releases.


Like someone said, it's good to be refreshed with something new :)

Wow, good thing you played it for more than half an hour or I'd think nothing of your opinion!

[FFFFsephychibi]

okay, I just played this game about 20 minutes ago and after about 7 minutes of gameplay I had to turn the thing off.

I'm sorry. It's so horrid. I have put my time into it as well. I'm about 50 hours into the game, and can't finish it. I (sadly) think even the characters (who have no voice overs) in final fantasy 6 have MORE PERSONALITY than the characters from ff 12 :/ These characters lack everything that makes them a final fantasy character. Final fantasy is known for such lovable/likable characters. Even the bad guys have loving fanbases (does this game even have a main villain???) Though I'am very fond of Fran's look/ore. And I enjoy balthier's accent/sly remarks... when I catch them xD What was cool is that they aren't assigned a certain role (the whole license thinger), so you can decide each ones fate. It gets severely boring after a while though if you don't know where your character is going.

The game was good when I actively played it, but it's very difficult to pick back up on. Nothing is really too memorable. Except the in-active scenery. The battles were sometimes quite fun, I loved loading my character with gamebits and watching them fail. It was defiantly a challenge. I do wish they would resort back to ATB or at least a controlled area. Also some of the monsters are challenging but for the most part are pushovers. I can't remember any bosses except the wall one. I died several times :)

I like the music for the most part (it needs to change during battle) You know to build the excitement, raise your blood, etc...

I will not share my opinion about the storyline, I don't know/remember anything, except a very vague word: Empire.

Overall, this game could be very enjoyable if I maybe had paid closer attention too what ever I missed. Frankly, most of the time I honestly felt distracted, by the voice acting (which was phenomenal) or rather really big words I'm not familiar with. Yet this isn't my least favorite ff, please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just not praising this one with love it doesn't deserve. Or I'm just not using my dictionary enough. I just feel all square gives a s*** about now a days is GRAPHICS GRAPHICS GRAPHICS. Ugh. At least with this game. And anonymous up coming releases.


Like someone said, it's good to be refreshed with something new :)

Wow, good thing you played it for more than half an hour or I'd think nothing of your opinion!

Oh yeah I played it for more than that xD....I actually thought it was the best final fantasy ever when I first started playing it. (Exploring Rabanastre with just vaan and kills things was fun :P) Though. That changed. I haven't played it in a few months and I just recently got back into it...I have no clue what part of the storyline I'am in... (It's that snow land... and I'm going to a cave..and getting a sword/magicite...or something) xD You think I'd be done with the game after 50 hours -_- Is it worth it going to the end, or just starting over @_@.....?????

[boys from the dwarf]

http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-xii/109432-dull-story.html

i like the points i made in this thread.

in few words. the main story with all the graphics and rewarding scenes is only a small part of the game.

where the huge amount of work and effort put into sidequests and the bestiary and the history is all for very little.

its like they focussed on the unimportant part of the game.

[XxSephirothxX]

It could've been better, and I think the story could've been more fleshed out. However, for being so uniquely political and radically different than your traditional JRPG, it was very, very good. People don't like it because it's not Japanese enough, and they hold silly opinions like "It's not Final Fantasy, it doesn't have this and this and this!"

All it needs is a title. Good series die if they stay the same for too long, and XII did an extremely good job of departing from the last several games, and I think it largely succeeded.

[Skyblade]

It could've been better, and I think the story could've been more fleshed out. However, for being so uniquely political and radically different than your traditional JRPG, it was very, very good. People don't like it because it's not Japanese enough, and they hold silly opinions like "It's not Final Fantasy, it doesn't have this and this and this!"

All it needs is a title. Good series die if they stay the same for too long, and XII did an extremely good job of departing from the last several games, and I think it largely succeeded.

By that argument, I'd have to acknowledge FFXI as a Final Fantasy. Not going to happen.

Anyway, I do acknowledge this as an FF game, it just had several issues dealing with its transition in game style that were not dealt with. Hopefully they'll learn, and either fix their mistakes in the games to come or go back to their old style.

[Raebus]

I prefer the "Fixing the mistakes in the games to come" whether than "going back to their old style". Their old style is incredibly boring to me.

[XxSephirothxX]

By that argument, I'd have to acknowledge FFXI as a Final Fantasy. Not going to happen.

Anyway, I do acknowledge this as an FF game, it just had several issues dealing with its transition in game style that were not dealt with. Hopefully they'll learn, and either fix their mistakes in the games to come or go back to their old style.
Unless they decide to alter history and rename it Fantasy-Based MMMORPG, it's always going to be a Final Fantasy game whether you like it or not. Even a lot of XII's battle mechanics have some roots in XI.

[PeneloRatsbane]

i kinda liked the no main love story. It made Vaan and Penelo's strange relationship more interesting cos we didn't completely know what was going on there. Rasler and Ashe is sad, but it made her a v.interesting character, and theres something about how Fran acted towards Baltheir which gave her a sweet and vulnerable side which further distinguished her from the veira

[No.78]

Now don't deny it. Alot of Final Fantasy fans do not like this game. Many fans of FFXII have asked why? Well here are my reasons and opinions as to why much of the Final Fantasy community felt disappointed with this game.

(they fear change)


1. The music.

I loved the music, I think if you like the music because of who made it you're silly :\. Salikawood bgm <3


2. Random Battles. If it ain't broke, don't replace it.

They're just trying something new, and the FF series is often critisized for being a little backward in that department.


3. Where is the love?

All of the love elements are subtle and left to the players imagination and fantasy. If you think about it, nearly any combination could work! Again it's just SE taking a new direction...


4. Whacky doodly piddly pop.

The storyline wasn't as deep as the older FF's, but it was still cool.


I do believe that they could have done better.


Things change, it's time for the FF community to realize that.

[BG-57]

While the music is lackluster, I found visible enemies an enjoyable alternative to random encounters. It's part of the reason I liked Mystic Quest, even though it has few supporters.

My biggest issue is with the way you get items. While I don't mind a little randomness in item dropping, it got ridiculous in the treasure chests. And there wasn't a single in-game hint about the Zodiac Spear chests.

The Bazaar has a deep flaw in that if you go over the quota of items to construct an item, any extra items get wasted. It added extra and uneccessary aggravation to the Tournesol subquest.

[Slothy]

While the music is lackluster

You know, it seems that almost everyone who says this mainly has a problem with the lack of battle music, which I can understand, but that doesn't mean the music is lackluster. In fact, there's still plenty of epicness, especially in cutscene music. After receiving my copy of the soundtrack last week, I'll also go on record as saying that this is one of the best soundtracks in the series. Even I'm guilty of not realizing how good it was in game, but it's easily better than half of the soundtracks in the series. I think another big problem people have is that they simply don't notice the music as much. I'l admit that the music doesn't stand out in a scene as much as Uematsu's work typically does. Instead, Sakimoto's themes are more supportive; meant to be more in the background and working with the scene. It doesn't mean it's not a good soundtrack, it's just something different for the series (which seems to be a common theme among the things people don't like about the game in general).

For my money, I think Sakimoto's soundtrack perfectly complements the game, and suits the style that Matsuno's games typically have.

[Roto13]

I liked XII's soundtrack. Specifically the songs that were taken from Tactics Advance.

[BG-57]

The music is not bad per se, but it didn't stand out as being particularly memorable. It worked adequately for its purposes, but I never felt like rushing out to get the soundtrack for this one.

But I'm glad that you enjoy it.

[empower]

I'm just going to pop in and say vivisteiner you are out of your mind for calling FFIX the best of the series.

The characters were completely overly cartoonish and often juvenile. The humanity and emotion of great games like FFVII and VIII were completely absent. Hell it was even humorless!

My favorite games of the series are Final Fantasy III(US) and VII. I could go about endlessly with my reasons but I'm not here to boast my favorites. I'm not a fanboy but I am an acute critic. I'm wondering exactly what is going on in your mind to boast FFIX above all of the games in the series. It makes no sense.

Compared to FFXII (and most other FF titles), IX:

1. Is shorter, by a LOT.
2. Is more cartoonish / abstract
3. Lacks characters with ANY depth
4. Lacks innovation or new concepts
5. Is too lighthearted for the most part. Good guys and bad guys alike seem completely un-frightening or powerful.


It comes off as a Disney-esque roster to me. I see criticism brought upon Vaan and Penelo of FFXII which I can understand in some ways yet in FF IX I was entirely bored until I acquired Amarant who is the only slightly threatening character in the game despite a lack of personality. Where other characters such as Steiner held the opposite I found an almost boring over-personality or melodrama.

IX lacks a strong hero figure and a dark enough or cool enough villain.

There's a reason it was outsold by both VII and VIII.

Final Fantasy IX was well received on 2 points

1. Graphical presentation
2. Nostalgia

I can appreciate the game play of IX as I appreciate the game play of essentially every FF game to date and have no arguments. There's no way not to like it because it's basically a recycled active version of the standard FF battle system which IMHO was basically solidified in Final Fantasy II (US) and completely polished by the time Final Fantasy VII was in our hands.

The game is also utterly without reward in side quests which is HUGE in Square RPG's all the way back from Chrono Trigger and early FF's. The ultimate weapon side quests are over complicated in execution and redundant to some. Otherwise there are a couple optional bosses with mediocre difficulty and little reward.

FFIX is simply an effort at nostalgia everywhere from from it's synthesized and reproduced score to it's recycled Final Fantasy themes.

[Slothy]

I'm just going to pop in and say vivisteiner you are out of your mind for calling FFIX the best of the series.

The characters were completely overly cartoonish and often juvenile. The humanity and emotion of great games like FFVII and VIII were completely absent. Hell it was even humorless!

You have no sense of humour.

FFIX's characters are some of the most human and relatable in the series, whereas FFVII and VIII featured some of the most rediculous and poorly handled character development I've ever seen. At least, when there was character development at all.


Compared to FFXII (and most other FF titles), IX:

1. Is shorter, by a LOT.
2. Is more cartoonish / abstract
3. Lacks characters with ANY depth
4. Lacks innovation or new concepts
5. Is too lighthearted for the most part. Good guys and bad guys alike seem completely un-frightening or powerful.

1.It can be shorter if you know what you're doing. My first playthrough (and most peoples I'm sure) clocked in at about 40 hours. The only game in the series it's shorter than is FFXII, and only because it's incredibly long.
2.You claim FFVI and VII among your favourites and complain about this? It's no more cartoonish than any FF pre-FFVIII. Particularly the ones in the pre-32-bit era.
3.Play it again. These characters had more depth and development than any character in FFVII or VIII and it was better handled than almost any game in the series. From Zidane's relationship with Bikke and Tantalus, to Garnet having to deal with having to fight her mother while still caring deeply for her, to Vivi's struggle's with the revelation of his creation and what it means for him as a person. This is just about the definitive character story in the series.
4.I'll give you this one, but only because it wasn't trying to be overly innovative. I will say though that the return to a strict class system was a plus and made it a much more strategic game, and refined and balanced this system to play almost as well as FFV.
5.I actually feel that the villians are some of the best in the series. Kuja and Braane destroy entire cities, and kill who knows how many people. And the whole time the player is left feeling almost helpless. I think this struggle against seemingly insurmountable odds only added to the feeling that everything was on the line.



IX lacks a strong hero figure and a dark enough or cool enough villain.

I think Zidane was a stronger hero figure than the previous two games, if only because he was a good person who was fairly selfless in his desire to help people. Cloud and Squall were your steretypical apathetic soldier types who start to give a crap out of nowhere. And Kuja is also a very effective villian. So he's not overly dark in his look or in most of his dialogue even? He still managed to demonstrate a cold hatred for Garland and everyone else, and a willingness to destroy and kill to reach his goals that made Sephiroth look like he was a halfhearted pansy.


There's a reason it was outsold by both VII and VIII.

Because a lot of the fanboys who didn't play the series before VII were only interested in more of the same and blew it off before it even came out. Those who didn't were treated to one of the most mature and well done games in the series.


The game is also utterly without reward in side quests which is HUGE in Square RPG's all the way back from Chrono Trigger and early FF's. The ultimate weapon side quests are over complicated in execution and redundant to some. Otherwise there are a couple optional bosses with mediocre difficulty and little reward.

Of all the things you said, I think this is the one I take the most issue with. I could see you just not liking the characters, or missing some of the finer points in the story and it's development; everyone's tastes are different afterall. But to say that it has no rewarding side quests, or that they're overly complex is just plain ignorant. For starters, many of them, especially Chocobo Hot & Cold are downright simple, and more importantly, they are some of the most rewarding side quests in the series. Sure they don't give you things that are as game breaking as Knights of the Round, but that was almost refreshing in a way. And the idea that they were a major part of the series in early FF's is border line rediculous. FFVI was the first one to have a lot of them since the whole second half of the game was prety much optional. FFV had some, but not really that many, and FFIV before it had almost none. FF's I-III weren't any better for them either. FFIX is one of the most sidequest heavy games in the series. There's plenty there to keep anyone occupied well past the end of the game if they want.

[Crossblades]

This game exceeded my expectations. As much as I love the random battles in past FF games, I was very pleased with the battle system. And I love the music in this game, I don't know why people complain about it. I found the story to be pretty decent. It's the not the best, but it's not the worst either. I really enjoyed this game until SE released the International version in Japan. After playing through that, I could never go back to the original version.

[remnant1]

lol is the international version that muuch better?and about what vivi22 says previously,i can see what he means about cloud,how he isnt a great hero figure,but id have to say that squall is a good hero.it is pretty dumb how all the charecters just automatically apoint him as leader.the whole backbone of the story is the Seed fighting the sorceress.squall was assigned command to fight her,and he commanded well.of course he doubts himself,but thats what makes him a better charecter.he is in everyway a better hero than cloud,and better than zidane,too

[empower]

LOL.

Congrats. You've managed to make a LOT say so little. Nice side-stepping though.

It's silly of you to call pre 32-bit characters cartoonish also. Back then that was about as good as the game-makers could make them look. That was also a time where we could look at graphics like that and see real people rather than say 16 bit figures made of very few pixels. Nowadays artists and developers have the ability to shape characters into anything from Smurf's to real people. FFIX was more on the Smurf side.

I'm having a hard time taking you seriously when you rip on FFVII's characters compared to IX. VII has by fact the best and most memorable characters in I would say any RPG ever. Sephiroth, Cloud, Tifa, Vincent even are phenomenally more popular and once again more human / interesting than the blank tablet characters of IX. Steiner brought some great personality but more as an ongoing comic relief if you ask me.

By the by - the material I presented was not simply my opinion but it was such as well as a large portion of reiteration of mass opinion about the game. Trust me I do my reading about how games are received as well.



I'm just going to pop in and say vivisteiner you are out of your mind for calling FFIX the best of the series.

The characters were completely overly cartoonish and often juvenile. The humanity and emotion of great games like FFVII and VIII were completely absent. Hell it was even humorless!

You have no sense of humour.

FFIX's characters are some of the most human and relatable in the series, whereas FFVII and VIII featured some of the most rediculous and poorly handled character development I've ever seen. At least, when there was character development at all.


Compared to FFXII (and most other FF titles), IX:

1. Is shorter, by a LOT.
2. Is more cartoonish / abstract
3. Lacks characters with ANY depth
4. Lacks innovation or new concepts
5. Is too lighthearted for the most part. Good guys and bad guys alike seem completely un-frightening or powerful.1.It can be shorter if you know what you're doing. My first playthrough (and most peoples I'm sure) clocked in at about 40 hours. The only game in the series it's shorter than is FFXII, and only because it's incredibly long.
2.You claim FFVI and VII among your favourites and complain about this? It's no more cartoonish than any FF pre-FFVIII. Particularly the ones in the pre-32-bit era.
3.Play it again. These characters had more depth and development than any character in FFVII or VIII and it was better handled than almost any game in the series. From Zidane's relationship with Bikke and Tantalus, to Garnet having to deal with having to fight her mother while still caring deeply for her, to Vivi's struggle's with the revelation of his creation and what it means for him as a person. This is just about the definitive character story in the series.
4.I'll give you this one, but only because it wasn't trying to be overly innovative. I will say though that the return to a strict class system was a plus and made it a much more strategic game, and refined and balanced this system to play almost as well as FFV.
5.I actually feel that the villians are some of the best in the series. Kuja and Braane destroy entire cities, and kill who knows how many people. And the whole time the player is left feeling almost helpless. I think this struggle against seemingly insurmountable odds only added to the feeling that everything was on the line.



IX lacks a strong hero figure and a dark enough or cool enough villain.I think Zidane was a stronger hero figure than the previous two games, if only because he was a good person who was fairly selfless in his desire to help people. Cloud and Squall were your steretypical apathetic soldier types who start to give a crap out of nowhere. And Kuja is also a very effective villian. So he's not overly dark in his look or in most of his dialogue even? He still managed to demonstrate a cold hatred for Garland and everyone else, and a willingness to destroy and kill to reach his goals that made Sephiroth look like he was a halfhearted pansy.


There's a reason it was outsold by both VII and VIII.Because a lot of the fanboys who didn't play the series before VII were only interested in more of the same and blew it off before it even came out. Those who didn't were treated to one of the most mature and well done games in the series.


The game is also utterly without reward in side quests which is HUGE in Square RPG's all the way back from Chrono Trigger and early FF's. The ultimate weapon side quests are over complicated in execution and redundant to some. Otherwise there are a couple optional bosses with mediocre difficulty and little reward. Of all the things you said, I think this is the one I take the most issue with. I could see you just not liking the characters, or missing some of the finer points in the story and it's development; everyone's tastes are different afterall. But to say that it has no rewarding side quests, or that they're overly complex is just plain ignorant. For starters, many of them, especially Chocobo Hot & Cold are downright simple, and more importantly, they are some of the most rewarding side quests in the series. Sure they don't give you things that are as game breaking as Knights of the Round, but that was almost refreshing in a way. And the idea that they were a major part of the series in early FF's is border line rediculous. FFVI was the first one to have a lot of them since the whole second half of the game was prety much optional. FFV had some, but not really that many, and FFIV before it had almost none. FF's I-III weren't any better for them either. FFIX is one of the most sidequest heavy games in the series. There's plenty there to keep anyone occupied well past the end of the game if they want.

[Vivisteiner]

@Empower: You're a fool who should be shot with a very, very sharp gun.



The characters were completely overly cartoonish and often juvenile. The humanity and emotion of great games like FFVII and VIII were completely absent. Hell it was even humorless!
Juvenile characters eh? Lets look at Rinoa and Squall - juvenile as hell with their fake love and silly dancing 'Oooh you're the prettiest guy!'. Compare them to all the other characters in FFIX (bar Quina) and they are blown away. Vivi is among the deepest of all time, as is Steiner (although it probably didnt get through to you). Amarant is well developed too, if you examine his analogies in detail. Instead you probably ignored them and thought 'this involves brain power - screw that.' Zidane's evolution throughout the game is also intriguing to behold. Garnet and Freya also channged undeniably. I think you're confusing design with personality. Maybe its time you learnt the difference.


Compared to FFXII (and most other FF titles), IX:

1. Is shorter, by a LOT.
2. Is more cartoonish / abstract
3. Lacks characters with ANY depth
4. Lacks innovation or new concepts
5. Is too lighthearted for the most part. Good guys and bad guys alike seem completely un-frightening or powerful.
It's not shorter. At least not by much when I play through it.
You probably rushed it. Notice how it has four discs - that's a lot.

You say its cartoonish - how shallow are you! That's like saying that Vaan is the worst main character solely because he's not wearing a t-shirt.

The characters have the greatest depth ever. Their developement probably just didnt get through your thick skull.

Innovation is one point Ill agree on, but it does deal with some topics such as life in a way that no RPGs have done before. It also perfects what an RPG is supposed to be. Go listen to gurus such as Sakaguchi and Uematsu - they'll tell you its the best game ever. Believe it or not, they know what they're talking about when they make statements like that!

The light hearted nature of it makes it more real. It adds contrast and provides a more balanced view on the world. The story is still serious, deep and interesting though. For those who can look deeper than the simple plot points of course. It deals with issues such as life and death, control and manipulation, fear and bravery and even the meaning of life - hardly light hearted topics.


IX lacks a strong hero figure and a dark enough or cool enough villain.
Talk about cliches. Oooh lets add a badass villain - how original! Then add a strong, angsty main character to the mix - what a revolutionary combination. /sarcasm


There's a reason it was outsold by both VII and VIII.
There's a reason why over half the people in America cant even locate Iraq on a map. ;)

Seriously though, look at the reviews for a fair analysis. Sales figures ride off the success of previous sales and other complex factors such as it being the last release on the Playstation. Its not a fair analysis. Not to mention the fact that there are loads of inane fanboys who'll fall for badass villains, angsty teenagers and soppy love scenes.

FFIX got the highest reviews ever for any Final Fantasy game if you go and look on Metacritic. That score (94/100) is composed of 22 objective reviews from leading gaming sites. It also sold over 5 million copies.

Final Fantasy IX (psx: 2000): Reviews (http://www.metacritic.com/games/platforms/psx/finalfantasy9?q=Final%20Fantasy%20IX)



The game is also utterly without reward in side quests which is HUGE in Square RPG's all the way back from Chrono Trigger and early FF's. The ultimate weapon side quests are over complicated in execution and redundant to some. Otherwise there are a couple optional bosses with mediocre difficulty and little reward.
Thats rubbish. The rewards in FFIX are better than in FFXII. At least give a concrete example. The only weak sidequest in FFIX is perhaps the mognet central one.

Anyway, Im fed up of your baseless crap. Not to mention I find your last post hilariously ironic. You say that Vivi22 made a lot say so little, well the rest of your post says absolutely nothing of any worth and contains no examples to give your points any credence.

Well then good day to you. And when gold slaps you in the face next time, try looking in the right direction.

[empower]

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o240/empowerauto/bowspinrofl.gif

This is why I love the internet. You guys type out a full page worth of rebuttal and try to sound as intelligent as possible but you're really saying nothing to actually counter what I said. Like I said, a whole lot of nothing!

Baseless crap? I'm sorry that a person such as myself with a broader perspective and likely more experience in the series has angered a couple fan-boys that are so dedicated to a single game.

This is like the Mac vs. PC argument and I'm Linux. I never said FFIX was a bad game; I pointed out why it wasn't the best. If you hopeless romantic's could get over yourselves you'd notice I'm not exactly flaming the game. I could pull a near or equal list of flaws from just about any RPG really but that's not what this is about. I'm telling you flat out that Final Fantasy IX is very distant from being the absolute best of the Final Fantasy series and you have yet to actually correct me. You've answered facts with beliefs. You remind me of a traditional creationist almost.

When I question it's sales, you fail to respond but simply show me good reviews. Whoop de doo. It's a good game of course it got good reviews. 5 million copies sold? I hope so, it was a good game. But you're dodging the fact it still sold less than it's predecessors.

When I point out it's nonthreatening and general cartoon-ish characters you bawk at the opposite for being too cliche' / recycled when you're really defending a game which was built on recycled ideas and the like. Hypocrisy that I know you didn't intend but managed.

When I point out the lack of rewarding / good side-quests you call it rubbish. What sort of argument is that? There's a reason the game is as short as it is. Redundant, short, rather unrewarding side-quests. You cannot debate that without pure fallacy. The Tetra game was severely criticized and was a poor unrewarding attempt to mimic Triple Triad. Mognet, as you submit, was pretty bad. There's a couple optional bosses with little reward and there's the few ultimate weapons. Yay? I will one at a time go through at least 3 other FF games with both better, longer and more rewarding side-quests.

When I point out characters you tell me I am confusing design with personality. You sir are confusing personality with design. I find their design juvenile most of all. Pardon the confusion. Personality I am not so much hawking on though I would award personality superiority to other FF games. Pay attention because I am not saying FFIX is weak in this aspect but it is not BEST. This is where your blind love for the game is angering and misguiding you. I'm not sure of your age and I'll try to be as little prejudiced as I can but as someone who was in my teens playing FFVIII and now in my 20's I can much better appreciate both the character and design of Rinoa and Squall. Personally I loved their story. It's common knowledge and criticism that Squall had some annoying traits but once again I'm not proposing he is the BEST main character. I don't believe it at all but Zidane and Garnet don't fit that bill either.

Finally, when I say it's short you tell me I rushed through it. Big assumption. You also say it doesn't take you much longer when you play through. Through and through I capped 50 hours into the game. A grand portion is also attributed to long conversation, cut-scene's and the like. Like I said the game was VERY good in terms of graphical presentation and environment. Add that to the clock. Expanding on that, you argue that somehow being 4-discs long attributes some sort of testament to it's length. I say once again: great graphical presentation and new age (at the time) RPG graphics makes for a LOT more disc space than we are used to so your argument here is entirely invalid right to the top of this paragraph.

I need to be shot with a very sharp gun? I'll pretend you didn't bother saying that just to save you some face.

So I'll leave you with that. Try not to explode or break anything in your room. Final Fantasy IX is a great game. I boldly state it is not the best in it's series and with patience and calmness await rebuttal that makes sense rather than just mask length and wit as true argument.

[Finola]

I didn't read every replies to this thread but i must say i got shocked about things that were said about how poor game IX is... or at least the lacks of it since i love it. Yeahyeah.
It's nonsense even to talk about IX in a thread whose (?) main subject is XII. Anyway. I totally agree to everything that's said in the first post. The music, characters and the plot were the biggest reasons why XII can't develop itself into a classic. And i'm not saying that it can't be a classic to someone but those are the reasons why it can't be that to me.

[Loony BoB]

I agree regarding the music, but Nobuo is his own man and he wanted to change company. You can only accept that, really.

I also agree regarding random battles. Surely there is a way to mix in random battles without needing a swirly screen a la FFVII, but I do think they're still needed. Maybe have them come from 'invisible' to visible at a very late moment, so you can't really plot your way around the enemies -you just go straight into the fight. Random battles were also great in that when I went into a battle, I'd be like "Oh, crap." Whereas in XII, you see the enemy from a distance. You go up to it. It's like you're volunteering to battle and that's just boring. When you play other FF's, it's like you didn't intend on battling and they just appeared while you were camping or something. I like that. None of this "Oh, there's that enemy. Well, I'll just heal myself, put on the appropriate commands and then go over."

I certainly missed having a massive world that you could explore on a global level. I know that people say "but you can, it's just broken down" - I just don't like the breaking down bit. I prefer walking around on a COMPLETE world, where you can grab a boat or an airship and watch it spin beneath you.

Love interests are nice. I don't mind that this one was missing it, but I'll be eagerly looking forward to the return of one in a future Final Fantasy, I have to admit. Preferrably where you can choose who your character falls for. That would be neato.

What else was there? Hmm. Oh, the plot. The plot was okay. Not bad, not good. Not good enough to make me want to end the game to see how it went, sadly, but whatyagonnado. Only a very small percentage of games ever get finished by me, nothing tends to hold my interest long enough. I've finished two FF's, though. :P

[Skyblade]

I also agree regarding random battles. Surely there is a way to mix in random battles without needing a swirly screen a la FFVII, but I do think they're still needed. Maybe have them come from 'invisible' to visible at a very late moment, so you can't really plot your way around the enemies -you just go straight into the fight. Random battles were also great in that when I went into a battle, I'd be like "Oh, crap." Whereas in XII, you see the enemy from a distance. You go up to it. It's like you're volunteering to battle and that's just boring. When you play other FF's, it's like you didn't intend on battling and they just appeared while you were camping or something. I like that. None of this "Oh, there's that enemy. Well, I'll just heal myself, put on the appropriate commands and then go over."

Chrono Trigger! Battles were semi random, and the transition seams only involved monsters rushing in from off screen.


I certainly missed having a massive world that you could explore on a global level. I know that people say "but you can, it's just broken down" - I just don't like the breaking down bit. I prefer walking around on a COMPLETE world, where you can grab a boat or an airship and watch it spin beneath you.

Agreed, but it's not that dissimilar from the world of X/X-2, so I wouldn't blame that element on this game.


Love interests are nice. I don't mind that this one was missing it, but I'll be eagerly looking forward to the return of one in a future Final Fantasy, I have to admit. Preferrably where you can choose who your character falls for. That would be neato.

BoB, sometimes, you're a genius. That would rock.


What else was there? Hmm. Oh, the plot. The plot was okay. Not bad, not good. Not good enough to make me want to end the game to see how it went, sadly, but whatyagonnado. Only a very small percentage of games ever get finished by me, nothing tends to hold my interest long enough. I've finished two FF's, though. :P

Other times, you're a bit crazy. How can you not finish most of the games you've played?!

Anyway, I think the plot itself was ok, but, as I said before, the character development during the plot, and lack of emotional involvement in the plot dragged the game down (and removed opportunities for a lot of good music).

[Loony BoB]

Other times, you're a bit crazy. How can you not finish most of the games you've played?!
Either I get bored with the story or I know what's going to happen. Bad person goes away, good people live on (more often than not). That's about it. There's very rarely any more to the story once that happens. I finished VIII because I wanted to know what would happen to the compressed world afterwards and I finished VII because, well, it's my favourite game and after months of playing around I figured I may as well see the ending. Otherwise I enjoy the game, not the fact that it's over and I can't play it anymore. :( This is why I think the dumbest idea video game designers ever came up with was that the game ends. It shouldn't end - the story should, but you should be able to walk around the world afterwards, basking in the praises of men and the embrace of women.

[Bolivar]

i just wanted to say empower i know what you're talking about, while IX has some of the most mature themes in the series, there's no way of getting around the fact that it is the cheesiest game in the series.

When I first beat it i thought it was the best, but having played it as well as the others since then, especially recently, it is indeed as you say. So don't let the swarming horde of fanatics get to you (im sure it hasn't)

On topic, I think its been the opposite with XII to me. When I first beat it i thought it was seriously lacking but enjoyed it alot the second time, after learning to accept it for what it is - the newest installment in the new direction FF is taking. Looking back it is a great game and i look forward to playing it again

[Bolivar]

double post!

[Vivisteiner]

This is why I love the internet. You guys type out a full page worth of rebuttal and try to sound as intelligent as possible but you're really saying nothing to actually counter what I said. Like I said, a whole lot of nothing!
You're the one talking crap, not me. All of your posts are solely your opinions without facts. Stop being arrogant and admit that you were wrong for saying that FFIX cannot be the best Final Fantasy.


Baseless crap? I'm sorry that a person such as myself with a broader perspective and likely more experience in the series has angered a couple fan-boys that are so dedicated to a single game.
No. Just no.

You have no idea how much Final Fantasy Ive played. You've no idea how much knowledge on Final Fantasys I have. Just to get things clear, I love FFVII, VIII and all the other FFs Ive played, but they are inferrior in most ways to FFIX in my opinion.


This is like the Mac vs. PC argument and I'm Linux. I never said FFIX was a bad game; I pointed out why it wasn't the best. If you hopeless romantic's could get over yourselves you'd notice I'm not exactly flaming the game. I could pull a near or equal list of flaws from just about any RPG really but that's not what this is about. I'm telling you flat out that Final Fantasy IX is very distant from being the absolute best of the Final Fantasy series and you have yet to actually correct me. You've answered facts with beliefs. You remind me of a traditional creationist almost.
Idiot, Im a left wing evolutionist who uses evidence in my posts. Unlike you. All you're contributing is the repetition that FFIX isnt very good in certain aspects without saying why. You dont use facts, you just repeat statements that are false without addressing our replies.


When I question it's sales, you fail to respond but simply show me good reviews. Whoop de doo. It's a good game of course it got good reviews. 5 million copies sold? I hope so, it was a good game. But you're dodging the fact it still sold less than it's predecessors.
And you're dodging the fact that sales figures are not correlated to quality. You dont judge a game based upon sales figures unless you're an imbecile. Oh wait, that explains a lot.

You toss aside the reviews as if they mean nothing, but I think that the reviewers know far more about games in general than you. You ignored the fact that two series pillars - two people who founded and made Final Fantasy what it is both call FFIX the best Final Fantasy ever. Yet you still seem to think that your opinion is the sole, correct, factual opinion despite what Sakaguchi and Uematsu say. Dont you think you're being a trifle arrogant?

Also, FFIX has the best music IMO.



When I point out it's nonthreatening and general cartoon-ish characters you bawk at the opposite for being too cliche' / recycled when you're really defending a game which was built on recycled ideas and the like. Hypocrisy that I know you didn't intend but managed.
I guess I was too subtle for you. My whole point is that every great game has cliches to some extent. You're calling FFIX out for them despite the fact that FFVII and VIII are full of them as well. Flawed logic my friend.


When I point out the lack of rewarding / good side-quests you call it rubbish. What sort of argument is that?
I called it rubbish because it is rubbish. The chocobo quests are very rewarding giving powerful weapons such as Ragnorak which has the powerful ability shock. Defeating Hades is rewarding allowing you to see extra ending scenes and summon a new Ediolon.


There's a reason the game is as short as it is. Redundant, short, rather unrewarding side-quests. You cannot debate that without pure fallacy. The Tetra game was severely criticized and was a poor unrewarding attempt to mimic Triple Triad. Mognet, as you submit, was pretty bad. There's a couple optional bosses with little reward and there's the few ultimate weapons. Yay? I will one at a time go through at least 3 other FF games with both better, longer and more rewarding side-quests.
Mognet was entertaining but short (btw, its admit, not submit). Tetra Master I enjoyed - its my personal taste. Personally, I though Triple Triad was boring. And then you forget about the amazingly awesome Chocobo Hot and Cold side quest which you conveniently didnt mention. Compare that to FFVIII - what good sidequests did that have? The chocobos in FFVIII were unaccessible!

You seem to be focussing on sidequests, but those are not what makes FF great. What makes them great is a deep and involving storyline. I felt that FFIX had that for the aforementioned reasons. It deals with deep issues has interesting and varied characters and moods and generally gives an all round experience that few games can compete with.

When I point out characters you tell me I am confusing design with personality. You sir are confusing personality with design. I find their design juvenile most of all. Pardon the confusion. Personality I am not so much hawking on though I would award personality superiority to other FF games. Pay attention because I am not saying FFIX is weak in this aspect but it is not BEST. This is where your blind love for the game is angering and misguiding you. I'm not sure of your age and I'll try to be as little prejudiced as I can but as someone who was in my teens playing FFVIII and now in my 20's I can much better appreciate both the character and design of Rinoa and Squall. Personally I loved their story. It's common knowledge and criticism that Squall had some annoying traits but once again I'm not proposing he is the BEST main character. I don't believe it at all but Zidane and Garnet don't fit that bill either.
Ehhhh...that whole post says absolutely nothing of value. Its just asserting your opinion without an ounce of evidence. I know Squall has annoying traits, as does Rinoa, but what really is terrible is the shoddy developement of their love. One minute Squall is saying that she's a loser, the next he's crying his heart out over her. Its poor, cliched character developement that seems forced and fake.

And you're the one still confusing design and personality. The design of a character does not make up the core part of the game. You see, unlike you, Im not shallow. I dont go 'Oooh that guys got a tail...thats not real...therefore that makes the game worse!'. That attidude is ridiculous. Especially seeing as its Final Fantasy.


Finally, when I say it's short you tell me I rushed through it. Big assumption.
Liar. I said you probably rushed through it. Big difference.


You also say it doesn't take you much longer when you play through. Through and through I capped 50 hours into the game. A grand portion is also attributed to long conversation, cut-scene's and the like. Like I said the game was VERY good in terms of graphical presentation and environment. Add that to the clock. Expanding on that, you argue that somehow being 4-discs long attributes some sort of testament to it's length. I say once again: great graphical presentation and new age (at the time) RPG graphics makes for a LOT more disc space than we are used to so your argument here is entirely invalid right to the top of this paragraph.
Obviously I realise it requires more disc space, but to tell you the truth, I dont believe you. Each time I play through FFIX it takes around 70 hours. I think my statistics are more reliable than yours. Comparing that to other FFs, it's about the same - no matter what you think.

I added the 4 disc point as an extra, and not as my key point. Way to go by ignoring the rest of my points and focussing on one tiny bit as if its the crux of my argument.


So I'll leave you with that. Try not to explode or break anything in your room. Final Fantasy IX is a great game. I boldly state it is not the best in it's series and with patience and calmness await rebuttal that makes sense rather than just mask length and wit as true argument.
Hahaaa, you're funny. Its not the fact that you dont think its the best game in the series that annoys me. There are many reasons why people believe it to be the case. What really pisses me off about people like you is that you ignore other people's points and state false arguments. Just like I havnt tried imposing on anyone that FFIX is irrefutably the best game in the series, dont try imposing on me the reverse. It just makes you sound like an idiot.


FYI, I did notice that you ignored many of my previous points. Maybe if you learnt how to quote properly youd be able to address them all? Again, as with my previous post I've used facts to back up my arguments for the most part. Compare that with your posts and you'll realise that yours are severly lacking them. Try using direct comparisons instead of vague writings.

Oh, and your attempt to label me as unintelligent was poorly done. If you must know, my exam marks were one of the top in the country. And Im 16.

What Id now like to hear is an admittal that Im not out of my mind for believing that FFIX is the best game ever. I wonder whether you'll have the courage and sense to admit that. You try and sound reasonable except you make some very extreme comments. Maybe you are unable to cope with the concept of variance.

Finally, Ill leave you with this quote from FFIX. I think, in essence, it applies to you.

"Foolish. Picking fights with strangers in a place like this... I used to know someone like that. He was a loser... He refused to find beneficial ways to use his power. Instead, he'd seek out people to fight..." -Amarant Coral, FFIX

Ill leave you to remember who he was referring to.


On topic, I think its been the opposite with XII to me. When I first beat it i thought it was seriously lacking but enjoyed it alot the second time, after learning to accept it for what it is - the newest installment in the new direction FF is taking. Looking back it is a great game and i look forward to playing it again
Bolivar, I think you're wrong. FFXII is just a one off project from the FFT team. Matsuno and co. have left now and FFXIII is being made by Toriyama and Kitase and FFvXIII is being made by Nomura and Hashimoto. The styles of the new games will suit that of those who are making it - and thus the style will be very different from FFXII (in all probability). FFXII doesnt reflect the new direction that the series is heading in in an accurate or reliable way.

[remnant1]

yo know ppl,theres now reason to kill anyone over this.lets get a third party opinion in this okay?final fantasy 9 is one of my favorites,10 being this #1.it's a great game,i spent 121 hours my first playthrough.i have played(and i own)every FF exept 3 and 11 and the one that came out 2007.i have been around FF since i was born and i have been playing since i was 3,and im 17 years old.FFlX is one of the best,but not THE best.every game has its flaws and every person has there opinions.to you,vivistiener,its your fav.game so of course you will say its the best,i undertsnad.just like i would say FFX is the best,because its my favorite.well,FFX isnt the best either,its just a matter of opinion.

I am a final fantasy fanatic,and i take pride on that.ff lX is among the best.top 3 i'd say,along with X and tactics.but to go as far and say that it is the best just out of opinion is wrong.lets make a poll shall we?

[Roto13]

Opinion wars are funny.

[Vivisteiner]

Hehe, they are funny. :D

The problem with Empower is that he thinks that Im factually wrong for believing that FFIX's best. He says that FFIX cannot be the best game in any sane person's opinion. Which is complete crap of course.

[ff is da best]

haha its just a game....
calm down peoples

[Vivisteiner]

^FFIX is more than just a game. Its a way of life. :D

[empower]

Which is complete crap of course.

^ See this is the reason I didn't reply once again. Your entire rebuttal was ridiculous and you're somehow calling mine opinion when it's really not. The only part I gave what is purely opinion on is what I actually liked about the game.

Then you said my problem is: I think you're factually wrong - yet you say this from a point of where you are forcing that you are inarguably correct. It makes sense to me I guess; I knew I wasn't arguing with an adult by any means especially after your last tirade where you blast that despite your age you are superior blah blah and I have no idea what I'm talking about. Who's using and abusing opinion now?

Like I said, I have no further response on the subject of whether FFIX is not the best FF or not. You are clearly a devoted fanboy with an FFIX name, FFIX signature using FFIX quotes and defending your love to the death. I was a teenager and knew everything 5 years ago too.

The fact is nothing will come from this argument because it's a fact a person like yourself could not ever admit any sort of defeat much less consider an opposing view be it opinion or fact. You're a young, ignorant person that through the safety of the internet exhibits a very juvenile sort of self-boasting of intelligence and the 2nd definition of bravado.

By the way if you're less than flattered about my seemingly presumptuous take on your character, don't be. I've spent years studying people and it will be my 9-5 job to know and understand them very well. So far you've proven me almost psychic but I'll leave the self flattery to you. :)

[ff is da best]

again ...... its a game

[Captain Maxx Power]

FF12 is officially terrible. Anyone who doesn't think so is probably in denial or just stupid.

How's that for an opinion and retrospective analysis?

[Slothy]

again ...... its a game

And Shakespeare just wrote some plays. Doesn't stop people from debating their meaning and merit as literary works.


^ See this is the reason I didn't reply once again. Your entire rebuttal was ridiculous and you're somehow calling mine opinion when it's really not. The only part I gave what is purely opinion on is what I actually liked about the game.

Then you said my problem is: I think you're factually wrong - yet you say this from a point of where you are forcing that you are inarguably correct. It makes sense to me I guess; I knew I wasn't arguing with an adult by any means especially after your last tirade where you blast that despite your age you are superior blah blah and I have no idea what I'm talking about. Who's using and abusing opinion now?

Like I said, I have no further response on the subject of whether FFIX is not the best FF or not. You are clearly a devoted fanboy with an FFIX name, FFIX signature using FFIX quotes and defending your love to the death. I was a teenager and knew everything 5 years ago too.

The fact is nothing will come from this argument because it's a fact a person like yourself could not ever admit any sort of defeat much less consider an opposing view be it opinion or fact. You're a young, ignorant person that through the safety of the internet exhibits a very juvenile sort of self-boasting of intelligence and the 2nd definition of bravado.

By the way if you're less than flattered about my seemingly presumptuous take on your character, don't be. I've spent years studying people and it will be my 9-5 job to know and understand them very well. So far you've proven me almost psychic but I'll leave the self flattery to you. :)

I'm not going to bother debating FFIX again (though going back to your sales argument one last time; Ico is one of the best games on the PS2, but it sold 50,000 copies. Sales mean nothing, especially when people are making threads in the FFIX forum saying they passed the game up because the main character had a tail:Oo:), though I am going to back Vivisteiner up on a point here that you are obviously missing in this whole argument which he has tried to convey multiple times.

Everything you've claimed to be a flaw with FFIX is personal opinion, yet you pass it off as fact. You seem under the belief that because you found some reviews and some other people who agree with your take that that somehow means it's a fact. Well I think Titanic was a huge pile of crap, but it won a lot of Oscars and a lot of people seem to like it, yet by your logic, since I know a lot of people who agree with my take on it it must be a fact that it sucks.

You take this high and mighty attitude that you are somehow more mature than anyone arguing in favour of FFIX, despite not being mature enough to realize that everyone has an opinion on a game and they can differ without necessarily being wrong. The same with books, movies, TV shows, etc. And when Vivisteiner tries to explain that point, you resort to name calling by saying he's immature and must be a child. You may try to disguise it in statements that sound halfway intelligent, but you're still being as immature as you claim he is when you do it. You argue that no one is bringing rebuttal with any substance behind it to counter your points, yet you never had any substance behind your points to begin with. You make statements like the game lacked a strong main character or villain, but never say why you thought Zidane and Kuja were weak characters. You say the side-quests aren't rewarding yet offer no reasoning behind this, even after Vivisteiner points out that you get much of the best equipment in the game from some of these sidequests. How does that make them unrewarding?

You see, I can see his problem with your argument; you claimed that what you said about FFIX was indisputable fact, when it obviously can't be. FFIX is a creative work and open to interpretation. Obviously yours differs from mine and Vivisteiners. Unlike you though I can at least accept that you don't like aspects of it (even if I do enjoy arguing about the points you bring up). Perhaps Vivisteiner said some things in the heat of the moment that he shouldn't have, but you've also proven yourself quite capable of the same thing you accuse him of.

[Skyblade]

^ See this is the reason I didn't reply once again. Your entire rebuttal was ridiculous and you're somehow calling mine opinion when it's really not. The only part I gave what is purely opinion on is what I actually liked about the game.

No, it's opinion. Whether a character is "strong" or "weak" cannot be fact, because there is no quantitative scale on which to measure a character's personality. Even psychologists (you know, those people who study the mind and are paid for their opinions) cannot pass their ideas off as undeniable fact.


Then you said my problem is: I think you're factually wrong - yet you say this from a point of where you are forcing that you are inarguably correct. It makes sense to me I guess; I knew I wasn't arguing with an adult by any means especially after your last tirade where you blast that despite your age you are superior blah blah and I have no idea what I'm talking about. Who's using and abusing opinion now?

You can be wrong without him being right, you know. Just because your posts are filled with glorified opinions, backed up with no evidence and an annoying amount of text that isn't arguing the point at all but merely attempting to cast your opponent in a less favorable light, does not at all imply that Vivisteiner is right about all or any of his points about the game. You can both be wrong (although I am not judging Vivisteiner right now, and thus am speaking hypothetically).


Like I said, I have no further response on the subject of whether FFIX is not the best FF or not. You are clearly a devoted fanboy with an FFIX name, FFIX signature using FFIX quotes and defending your love to the death. I was a teenager and knew everything 5 years ago too.

And you are clearly a self centered twerp who doesn't realize that even fanboys do actually have a right to defend that which they love, especially when the people discrediting it aren't offering any facts to support their views.


The fact is nothing will come from this argument because it's a fact a person like yourself could not ever admit any sort of defeat much less consider an opposing view be it opinion or fact. You're a young, ignorant person that through the safety of the internet exhibits a very juvenile sort of self-boasting of intelligence and the 2nd definition of bravado.

Stop trying to make yourself sound smart, because you're terrible at it (I'm using the second definition of terrible (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/terrible) there). Let's look at your sentence here: "You're a young, ignorant person that through the saftety of the internet exhibits a very juvenile sort of self-boasting of intelligence and the 2nd definition of bravado." Let's take some time and analyze this. First, claiming he is young and ignorant is totally incorrect, because, as you yourself pointed out, this is over the internet and, unless you are an extremely capable identity thief, you cannot know his age, or what knowledge he does or does not possess. Second, arguing that he is exhibiting certain behaviour through the safety of the internet is a laughably ridiculous position to take, since you yourself are doing the exact same thing. Of course, you'll probably argue that you're not doing it because the internet offers safety, but for the hundreds of other possible reasons someone might want to post on here. Unfortunately, since you just picked the reason that suited your argument the most and ignored all others, I'm going to do the exact same thing. Any argument you could make to justify your behaviour could also be used by Vivistiener to justify his behaviour, which would mean that in order for you to do so you would have to admit you were wrong, which I doubt you'll do (you'll probably just sit down with a dictionary and thesaurus for five minutes and do your best to denounce my mental acuity. Good luck with that). Then we get to "exhibits a very juvenile sort of self boasting of". Your behaviour has been just as juvenile as his, if not more so, and all your precious work with your dictionary apparently failed to notice that the words "sort of" and "self" are wholly unnecessary and do nothing but increase your word count and make you look like a fool who doesn't actual understand any of the words he is using. Finally, we get to your last phrase "boasting of intelligence and the 2nd definition of bravado", and this is the part where I actually cracked up. First, it's entirely inconsistent. Put down the dictionary and take an English class. If he is boasting of "A" and "B" that means he is boasting of both "A" and "B". So you're claiming he is boasting of his intelligence and bravado. Since you looked up what the definition of bravado is, you should have had no trouble realizing just how ridiculous that claim is. Also, believe it or not, you don't have to specify which definition of a word you are using. Even if you are doing it for your own reference purposes so that you'll be able to understand what you wrote, you should know that it does nothing but makes you look like an ignorant, pompous git.


By the way if you're less than flattered about my seemingly presumptuous take on your character, don't be. I've spent years studying people and it will be my 9-5 job to know and understand them very well. So far you've proven me almost psychic but I'll leave the self flattery to you. :)

Actually, claiming yourself to be almost psychic is in fact self flattery, so your last sentence is rather self contradictory. Some may argue that I'm indulging in personal attacks and flame wars, but in reality I'm trying to open your mind and help you to realize that hypocrisy and pseduo-wit are not the way to win arguments. Have a nice day.

[Loony BoB]

The next person to point out something about a person in this thread gets a warning. Just don't make things personal, please. This isn't directed at any individual in particular, this is to everyone who has made some kind of personal slight towards anyone else in this thread. Stick to talking about the game and if you disagree with someone it isn't a reason to question their integrity, intelligence, etc.

[remnant1]

gyah,no one ever quotes me :-(.if you want to debate FFlX,do it in the FFlX thread please.if you all havent noticed,this is the final fantasy Xll thread.rules exist for a reason.

and to get off the topic of FFlX,what makes you think FFXll is such a crappy game,max power?

[ff is da best]

i agree with looney bob :)

[Wolf Kanno]

*ignoring the IX vs. XII debate...*

Though I'm tired of this debate, I feel for the most part its actually been pretty good so I'll add my :twocents:

Music: Though I would agree that the soundtrack doesn't offer the sheer volume of memorable tracks like Uematsu's good soundtracks. I honestly feel the soundtrack is quite good and easily compliments the scenes. Maybe not in an emotional sense like Uematsu but at least in a immersive way. I never found the music to be distracting or boring. In fact most of my negative comments only happen when I stop playing the game and reflect back on it. But I do the same thing with the soundtracks of alot of games. Its truly rare that I remember a game soundtrack so I don't think much about it or let it ruin my gaming experience.

I also disagree with battle themes being intrical, since the few memorable tracks listed were situational tracks like "Battle on the Bridge". Until the Black Mages remixes, I never thought highly of any of the normal boss and battle themes in the series. Only specialty tracks like "Battle on the Bridge", "Man with the Gun", and the cool final boss themes were ever memorable. In fact, "Still More Fighting" is the only normal boss theme in any of the FFs I actually like. XII does have it's share of specialty boss themes that are memorable so for my personal taste it actually suits me.

Love Story: Good riddance, most of them felt tacked on or are horribly done. If you want good romance, I wouldn't look to FF to deliver it to you. I never felt it was a defining feature in the series but rather an annoying cliche I have to stomache through. Course this may have to do with the fact that my favorite FF's either don't have a love story or its just a side story that never overshadows the main plot. If you are going to have a love story in a story that isn't a love story, it should be in the background and not the main focus but this is just my opinion. Oddly enough, I am a hopeless romantic but FFs way of dealing with love always seemed shallow to me...

Random Battles: I like the battle system for the most part. I only miss random battles due to nostalgia sakes but not because I feel it lessens the gaming experience because I need them. The battle system was well done for the most part and though I feel it could be better in certain places (varying animations, more detailed gambit options, better spell visuals, and just greater variety overall) I feel its a wonderful starting platform for something greater. I would love to see the ADB system expanded upon and tinkered with. I think it could truly become something revolutionary. Also I would like to mention that I completely agree with BG-57 on the fact that treasure chests shouldn't be random drops :mad:

Plot and Characters: Lord knows I don't want to get into this one. Though I agree that a better expansion on the cast is welcomed, I feel the cast is quite strong and interesting for the most part. Its plot is not as deep as the standards put up by the teams previous works (Tactics and Vagrant Story) but I still feel its enjoyable and new to the main line of the series which never really properly dealt with stories about politics and social classes. It was a welcomed change IMHO.

The major flaw I find in the story is the pacing. I'll agree that the dungeons (or just getting to the dungeons) can get so long and tedious at times that the player begins to forget why they are there to begin with. Its not a big deal as long as your consistent, but if you have a nasty job or school or both; you can't exactly dedicate every free moment with playing. The game really could have used a story journal so you can read up on what has happened and check up on your characters personal situations (a la FFT).

These are just my opinions though...;)

[Vivisteiner]

There have been some intelligent posts after Empower's that I think have really said all that I want to say. Let me add my two cents as well.


^ See this is the reason I didn't reply once again. Your entire rebuttal was ridiculous and you're somehow calling mine opinion when it's really not. The only part I gave what is purely opinion on is what I actually liked about the game.
You didnt give me a single example of a fact you used. The reason?
Because you didnt use any facts. In the end, all your posts boil down to are your own personal opinions, which I disagree strongly with.


Then you said my problem is: I think you're factually wrong - yet you say this from a point of where you are forcing that you are inarguably correct. It makes sense to me I guess; I knew I wasn't arguing with an adult by any means especially after your last tirade where you blast that despite your age you are superior blah blah and I have no idea what I'm talking about. Who's using and abusing opinion now?
What Im trying to illustrate is that you fail to understand the simple concept that there is no one correct opinion. I said you're factually wrong for believing that no sane person can believe that FFIX is the best game ever, because you are wrong. That is a fact, because me and many others believe that to be the case and we are all sane, intelligent individuals. Say what you want, your opinions on my intelligence are baseless and without merit.


Like I said, I have no further response on the subject of whether FFIX is not the best FF or not. You are clearly a devoted fanboy with an FFIX name, FFIX signature using FFIX quotes and defending your love to the death. I was a teenager and knew everything 5 years ago too.
And your point is?

The reason Im a fan of FFIX is because I think its an amazing game, in a similar way to fans of Shakepeare believing him to be an amazing writer. Your paragraph is essentially a pointless waste of space. Maybe its just an attempt to show off about how observant you are.


The fact is nothing will come from this argument because it's a fact a person like yourself could not ever admit any sort of defeat much less consider an opposing view be it opinion or fact. You're a young, ignorant person that through the safety of the internet exhibits a very juvenile sort of self-boasting of intelligence and the 2nd definition of bravado.
I beg to differ. In actual fact I think its quite the reverse.

Say what you want, your words are meaningless and baseless. I think the very fact that you can label someone after only speaking to that someone only a couple of times says a lot of things about your personality. And to cap it all you dont even have any evidence to support your claims yet you make gross assumptions and ridiculous statements - you certainly wouldnt make a good scientist.


By the way if you're less than flattered about my seemingly presumptuous take on your character, don't be. I've spent years studying people and it will be my 9-5 job to know and understand them very well. So far you've proven me almost psychic but I'll leave the self flattery to you.
I've already pointed out the hippocracy and irony of your statements. Here's another example to add to the list.

Not to mention that you're actually shockingly wrong to the point of ludicracy. Truth be told, if someone fires you in the next few years I certainly wont be suprised.

[ff is da best]

this thread cracks me up

[Laddy]

While FFXII is a very enjoyable game, I was disappointed with its completely different turn from the series we know and love.

[Bolivar]

On topic, I think its been the opposite with XII to me. When I first beat it i thought it was seriously lacking but enjoyed it alot the second time, after learning to accept it for what it is - the newest installment in the new direction FF is taking. Looking back it is a great game and i look forward to playing it again
Bolivar, I think you're wrong. FFXII is just a one off project from the FFT team. Matsuno and co. have left now and FFXIII is being made by Toriyama and Kitase and FFvXIII is being made by Nomura and Hashimoto. The styles of the new games will suit that of those who are making it - and thus the style will be very different from FFXII (in all probability). FFXII doesnt reflect the new direction that the series is heading in in an accurate or reliable way.

I think you're confusing direction of the series with the direction of the next installment.

First of all, it's a little inaccurate to categorize FFXII as a "one off project from the FFT team." Many of the staff members of XII are veterans from FFX, such as the scenario writer, and several lead graphic and programming designers. Also, the executive producer of the project last made his appearance in the series as Director for FFII.

Not only that, but I'm not sure why you claim "Matsuno & Co." have left Squeenix - Matsuno seems to be the only one gone. The composer is freelance, and he recently assisted with Revenant Wings, so I'm sure he's going to contribute to more SE projects down the road. Also, the co-director, who received a bump up to director, seems to have popped up quite alot at the conferences for the game, talking about things like "when we make a Final Fantasy..." so I'm sure we'll be hearing more things from him down the line. Then there's Ito, who worked on the majority of FF's and will undoubtedly serve on more down the line. I think you get the point.

What I meant by new direction of FF, is that all the new installments seem to be very distinct from each other, as opposed to the first 9 which are in alot of ways fundamentally the same thing. Also, with FFXI and XII having very similar battle systems, it makes you wonder if this is the new direction FF is taking? Only time will tell, but I believe you are extremely mistaken for thinking that none of the contributors to XII will have any further influence on the series following XIII.

[Vivisteiner]

First of all, it's a little inaccurate to categorize FFXII as a "one off project from the FFT team." Many of the staff members of XII are veterans from FFX, such as the scenario writer, and several lead graphic and programming designers. Also, the executive producer of the project last made his appearance in the series as Director for FFII.

Not only that, but I'm not sure why you claim "Matsuno & Co." have left Squeenix - Matsuno seems to be the only one gone. The composer is freelance, and he recently assisted with Revenant Wings, so I'm sure he's going to contribute to more SE projects down the road. Also, the co-director, who received a bump up to director, seems to have popped up quite alot at the conferences for the game, talking about things like "when we make a Final Fantasy..." so I'm sure we'll be hearing more things from him down the line. Then there's Ito, who worked on the majority of FF's and will undoubtedly serve on more down the line. I think you get the point.
You have a point there. But in terms of storyline the games will be very different. Matsuno had his own way of telling a story whereas Nomura's is completely different. Also the character designers are different.

Sakimoto could contribute to more FF music, but thats going to be in a long time from now. Its going to be a long, long time before FFXIV is released.


What I meant by new direction of FF, is that all the new installments seem to be very distinct from each other, as opposed to the first 9 which are in alot of ways fundamentally the same thing. Also, with FFXI and XII having very similar battle systems, it makes you wonder if this is the new direction FF is taking? Only time will tell, but I believe you are extremely mistaken for thinking that none of the contributors to XII will have any further influence on the series following XIII.
Sure there will be many contributors continuing on but it is the lead figures who influence the game the most.
FFXIII
Yoshinori Kitase (game producer)
Motomu Toriyama (game director)
Kazushige Nojima (scenario writer)
Tetsuya Nomura (character designer)
Yo:skull::skull::skull::skull:aka Amano (title logo designer)
Nobuo Uematsu (theme song composer)
Masashi Hamauzu (music composer)

FFXII
Yasumi Matsuno (original concept)
Akitoshi Kawazu (executive producer)
Hiroshi Minagawa (director)
Hiroyuki Itō (design director)
Daisuke Watanabe (scenario writer)
Hitoshi Sakimoto (music composer)
Yo:skull::skull::skull::skull:aka Amano (image illustrator, title logo designer)
Akihiko Yoshida (character designer)

FFvXIII
Shinji Hashimoto (game producer)
Tetsuya Nomura (game director, character designer)
Yoko Shimomura (composer)
Yo:skull::skull::skull::skull:aka Amano (image illustrator, title logo designer)

So I think my point still stands.

I do agree that FFXII contributors will still have influence but expect to see a very different style game. Also, the battling system for both upcoming PS3 games will be considerably different to XII.

However, Im sure they'll keep things that FFXII did well such as sprawling environments and the like.

[Loony BoB]

XIII, XII, XIII? *confused*

EDIT: Oh, vs.

[Vivisteiner]

^Yeah, sorry about that.

I really hate those :skull::skull::skull::skull: signs for Yo:skull::skull::skull::skull:aka Amano.

[Nifleheim7]

The game really could have used a story journal so you can read up on what has happened and check up on your characters personal situations (a la FFT).

I agree 100% on that.

[Roto13]

Yoshitaka Amano.

Tee hee.

[Bolivar]

Yoshitaka Amano.

Tee hee.

How!? OH wait, i see now that i quoted you...

[Vivisteiner]

^But do you take my point?

[Bolivar]

^But do you take my point?

Oh yeah definately. My meaning of 'direction' was more how the last 3 installments have been very different from the standard tradition that the first 9 had, and we can expect to see more experimentation and diversity in the future. I think what XII brought to the table that we'll definately be seeing is the breaking down of barriers, such as the use of the whole ADB thing.

But yeah, I agree with what you're saying. Every FF has a different creative direction, even the first 4, even with IV being a compilation of the initial trilogy.

[Karellen]

IV is a compilation? IX was a compilation of the first VIII, but I don't remember anything like that ever being said about IV.

As for FFXII and its influence, while FFXIII looks like it's going to have turn based combat and vXIII is going to use the Kingdom Hearts system (or something close to it), it looks like the whole 'real-time' encounters thing have made their way into White Knight Chronicles. So that's something, at least.

[EagleDelta1]

I noticed that music was mentioned as a complaint, the reason Nobou wasn't used was because the game was set in Ivalice and so they used the composer that had done the previous three games(FFT, FFTA, & Vagrant Story) set in the same world to keep continuity with the now named Ivalice Alliance.

I think I already saw this point made, but Matsuno(the Director of All the Ivalice games until FFXII:RW) seems to have a greater interest in politically themed stories where there isn't a clear cut villian all the time, which is very different from the previous main-stream FF directors. Before playing the game I took that into account and enjoyed the game all the more, escpecially all the little references to previous Ivalice games.

[Nifleheim7]

About the music:it takes too long to break people's habbits.
At first i didn't like the soundtrack either but now that i can judge it more objectively i think it's one of the best FF ost's.It just has a different "style" than Uematsu's work.
People should stop comparing it with Uematsu's music and only then they will really start to appreciate it.

[Bolivar]

IV is a compilation?

FFIV DS Interview (http://www.gamebrink.com/blog/2007/05/31/final-fantasy-iv-ds-interview)


And what is the best thing about FFIV?

Tokita: Well to me, Final Fantasy IV is a great compilation that took all the best parts of Final Fantasy I, II and III. The characters are portrayed with the jobs from III and the story element is drawn from II… In Final Fantasy I there was the 4 Chaos but in Final Fantasy IV there’s the Four Kings. With such enemies in the game, it really adds to the story and mood, acting as symbols for the game.It’s what we had in mind when we made the original version

Props to *PaladinCecil* for bringing up this great interview in my thread about the plot of FFIV. It touches on alot of other things that I think anyone interested in the remake will enjoy.

I think that might have something to do with IX also having two moons, which is incidentally the last shot in the ending (them merging).

[Karellen]

Huh, that actually makes quite a lot of sense.

[ReloadPsi]

Um, the topic title reads "Spoilers". I know this seems like a bitchy question but is there even enough of a plot to spoil? I found that I wasn't following it at all the whole time I played it, and I dunno if it's because the plot was crap or what.

[RedCydranth]

I'm in the middle of my first play through of the game now. So far I'm thoroughly enjoying the plot. I'm about to go and fight the big Ice summon thing, so I'm only part way through it. The plot isn't hard to follow at all. I'm really liking a bunch of characters. Fran and Balthier rule. I like Basch and Ashe too. Vaan and Peleno are okay although I wish they'd have more to do with the story. Like once the team rescued Penelo, why did she stick around? "I want to" was all I really got.

But there has been worse tag alongs. I mean Amarant and Quina were pretty superfluous in IX, and that was still an awesome game.

As a veteran of the FF series (I've played all the games except XI and Revenant Wings but RW will get played.) I like the changes. Keeping the same system from one game to another is something the series never really did. Each game has had a different system. I like the way battles are in this. I was sceptical at first about it, thinking it would turn the game more into an action RPG than an actual RPG, but like it was said before, its really a similar system to prior games, just without the "woosh you're in a battle now" thing, which was rather time consuming. Yes, the battles aren't exactly random, but really they never were in the first place. Each area in any given FF has certain enemies you can encounter. It just so happens in this one you see them before they see you often times.

I play all games with an open mind. Accepting them for what they are and leave the comparisons until later. If I want a system like FF7's or FF9's I'll play FF7 or FF9. I'll play FF12 how the designers intended because its their game and their vision. If by the end I abhor the game, then I'll not play it again. If I love it, I'll probably replay it. In the event of FF8, I hated the system, characters and story and thus I shall never play it again.

As for one of the original poster's points about love, No, its NOT a needed object in a final fantasy. I can only think of one game where love was crucial to the plot of the game and that was 8's and really, its one of the most hated games in the series. Yes a lot of people love it too, but there's such a hot-cold ratio to that game that no other game has, so I see it as the most hated game. Nobody is "meh" on 8. They either liked it or abhored it to oblivion. Back to love though, as it was recently said in this thread, the games set in Ivalice have never been about love. Its always been a political struggle. Tactics never really had a love aspect. Delita and Ovelia were the closest thing to love we saw, and that was just a curtain to gain power. Maybe the love between a brother and sister with Ramza and Alma was present, but its not what the kind of love we're talking about. Most FF games have some tinge of romance, but thats definitely a side story to the main one. The Tifa-Aeris-Cloud love triangle was definitely a side story. Hell, if you wanted to, you could avoid it altogether and go on a date with Barret.

I guess all I'm saying is most of the reasons stated in the original post can be boiled down to "Its not the same as other games" but if you compare any one game in the series to the others, they're all different. Thats how the series is. If after 12+ installments you can't realize this, then you really should go back to playing Dragon Quest where all games are essentially the same.

[Heath]

Um, the topic title reads "Spoilers". I know this seems like a bitchy question but is there even enough of a plot to spoil? I found that I wasn't following it at all the whole time I played it, and I dunno if it's because the plot was crap or what.

Not sure if that's case because the missing element is a crap plot; something that FFXII didn't have :p As I've said already, I think FFXII did have a decent plot and I think it gets more stick than it deserves.


About the music:it takes too long to break people's habbits.
At first i didn't like the soundtrack either but now that i can judge it more objectively i think it's one of the best FF ost's.It just has a different "style" than Uematsu's work.
People should stop comparing it with Uematsu's music and only then they will really start to appreciate it.

Agree totally. FFXII's music was a lot more atmospheric meaning that it was much more enjoyable within the context of the game in its wide and varied locales and with the ability to really explore more than in any other FF game (with the possible exception of XI). It's a fantastic OST, but if you constantly compare it to Uematsu's work you'll never appreciate it for what it is. Uematsu's work was great, but so are some of the pieces from this OST.

[Imperfectionist]

Me and Final Fantasy XII have a bit of a love/hate relationship.
I've got to agree with Mr Cactuar on the music, it's just not memorable. I'm hearing a lot of people here saying "Oh but it's atmospheric! It compliments the surroundings!" So? Uematsu's music was hugely atmospheric AND memorable, Sakimoto's music just doesn't have that extra something about it that makes you wanna go and download it, or just stop playing for a second so you can just listen and fully appreciate the sound. I'm not saying Sakimoto's a terrible composer, but Final Fantasy has got a reputation for emotive and memorable music that XII just isn't living up to.

The absence of random battles are a bit more of a complicated subject. On one hand, they're great. They make the game more seamless, more 'realistic', and it's good to have some change from time to time. But on the other hand, if I wanted realism, i'd go play outside. Random battles have become a part of Final Fantasy in the last 20 years or so, no matter how reluctant people are to admit it, and I have to say that I really miss them.

I don't think it's the absence of a love story that brings this game down necessarily, it's the lack of any real emotion from any of the characters. And it's a shame because some of them, like Balthier, really could have made brilliant characters if they had been developed on, but instead we've got Ashe whose response to everything is to exhale and Penelo, one of the main characters, who just doesn't seem to serve a purpose once you really get into the game. And Vayne! What a bad villan. He doesn't even act particularly villaneous, he just acts like your average politician. He doesn't even COMPARE to the insanity of Kefka or Sephiroth.

The basic idea for the plot is pretty refreshing to be honest. All the politics is such a good change from what has been in recent Final Fantasies. But again, Square failed to build on it properly, resulting in players who just don't care what happens, or evidently, some that don't even know what's happening.

However, I don't think this is a necessarily bad game. It's just that, when compared to other Final Fantasies, it doesn't live up to the same standards.

[Roto13]

but instead we've got Ashe whose response to everything is to exhale

I disagree with pretty much everything you've said, but that made me laugh. xP

[EagleDelta1]

Imperfectionist -we got to remember that FFXII wasn't entirely done by the mainstream FF staff. In fact the heads of the project, as everyone knows, were the staff members behind all the other games set in Ivalice and as such I EXPECTED it to be far closer to the story/music style of FFT and Vagrant Story than to any other mainstream FF game. I actually like the story and music - it keeps some continuity with the world, or rather region, that the games are set in - you still feel like you are in the same Ivalice that Vagrant Story and FFT are set in. A NPC in Archadia even mentions the city of Lea Monde, where Vagrant Story is set.

As to the random battles issue - even S-E ahs admitted that Random turn-based battles are becoming more and more obsolete. The mass consumer audience - which is what S-E is aiming at since they ARE a business, not a fan-pleaser - just isn't interested in random battles anymore.

[Imperfectionist]

Imperfectionist -we got to remember that FFXII wasn't entirely done by the mainstream FF staff. In fact the heads of the project, as everyone knows, were the staff members behind all the other games set in Ivalice and as such I EXPECTED it to be far closer to the story/music style of FFT and Vagrant Story than to any other mainstream FF game. I actually like the story and music - it keeps some continuity with the world, or rather region, that the games are set in - you still feel like you are in the same Ivalice that Vagrant Story and FFT are set in. A NPC in Archadia even mentions the city of Lea Monde, where Vagrant Story is set.

Well maybe it's because i've never played FFT or Vagrant story that i'm not as into this game as I was with the others, because really, I just can't relate to this game as much as I did with the others.


As to the random battles issue - even S-E ahs admitted that Random turn-based battles are becoming more and more obsolete. The mass consumer audience - which is what S-E is aiming at since they ARE a business, not a fan-pleaser - just isn't interested in random battles anymore.

Again, that was just my personal opinion. I've pretty much grown up with random battles, and I can see it from a business perspective that random battles aren't as popular any more, that doesn't stop me from missing them.

[Bolivar]

Imperfectionist -we got to remember that FFXII wasn't entirely done by the mainstream FF staff. In fact the heads of the project, as everyone knows, were the staff members behind all the other games set in Ivalice and as such I EXPECTED it to be far closer to the story/music style of FFT and Vagrant Story than to any other mainstream FF game. I actually like the story and music - it keeps some continuity with the world, or rather region, that the games are set in - you still feel like you are in the same Ivalice that Vagrant Story and FFT are set in. A NPC in Archadia even mentions the city of Lea Monde, where Vagrant Story is set.

Well maybe it's because i've never played FFT or Vagrant story that i'm not as into this game as I was with the others, because really, I just can't relate to this game as much as I did with the others.


As to the random battles issue - even S-E ahs admitted that Random turn-based battles are becoming more and more obsolete. The mass consumer audience - which is what S-E is aiming at since they ARE a business, not a fan-pleaser - just isn't interested in random battles anymore.

Again, that was just my personal opinion. I've pretty much grown up with random battles, and I can see it from a business perspective that random battles aren't as popular any more, that doesn't stop me from missing them.

I don't think the business perspective should get in the way of it. FFVII is square's best selling game, and it utilized ATB in a way that flowed perfectly, making the battles feel almost like an action game with the perfect flow of battle and the use of a constantly moving camera, to create a really intense experience. To this day I still enjoy nearly every battle in the game and either IGN or Edge cited it as the game's strongest aspect. FFX also used them really good for the boss fights, with your characters seeing it on the map and then the screen slightly changing to the battle screen. They were supposed to have developed that more for even the enemies - I hope they could do that for a future game. I'd much rather have battles that play like a modern day chrono trigger than a large "exploration" experience that can be extremely boring at times.

[EagleDelta1]

I don't think the business perspective should get in the way of it. FFVII is square's best selling game, and it utilized ATB in a way that flowed perfectly, making the battles feel almost like an action game with the perfect flow of battle and the use of a constantly moving camera, to create a really intense experience. To this day I still enjoy nearly every battle in the game and either IGN or Edge cited it as the game's strongest aspect. FFX also used them really good for the boss fights, with your characters seeing it on the map and then the screen slightly changing to the battle screen. They were supposed to have developed that more for even the enemies - I hope they could do that for a future game. I'd much rather have battles that play like a modern day chrono trigger than a large "exploration" experience that can be extremely boring at times.

But that's the point - Square-Enix is a business. They're not there to cater to the fans, but to make money. nothing more, nothing less.

[Bolivar]

I don't think the business perspective should get in the way of it. FFVII is square's best selling game, and it utilized ATB in a way that flowed perfectly, making the battles feel almost like an action game with the perfect flow of battle and the use of a constantly moving camera, to create a really intense experience. To this day I still enjoy nearly every battle in the game and either IGN or Edge cited it as the game's strongest aspect. FFX also used them really good for the boss fights, with your characters seeing it on the map and then the screen slightly changing to the battle screen. They were supposed to have developed that more for even the enemies - I hope they could do that for a future game. I'd much rather have battles that play like a modern day chrono trigger than a large "exploration" experience that can be extremely boring at times.

But that's the point - Square-Enix is a business. They're not there to cater to the fans, but to make money. nothing more, nothing less.

I never said it wasn't. My point is that sales numbers is completely independent from what kind of battle they use, as probably their best selling game used ATB.

[Vivisteiner]

Tbh, I now find playing random battles significantly less interesting than other gameplay forms. Its not bad, its just not at a high enough standard anymore IMO.

And thats what the general consumer seems to be saying.

[Bolivar]

Tbh, I now find playing random battles significantly less interesting than other gameplay forms. Its not bad, its just not at a high enough standard anymore IMO.

And thats what the general consumer seems to be saying.

I've never heard any consumers say that (you could never measure this anyway), except a few on here, and yet on the forum also are alot of people who want to see them brought back.

The vast majority of battles in XII were actually pretty boring, especially compared to, say VII, where the use of the camera in random battles allowed the player to essentially be the director of his/her own action movie. And like I already said, the sales of VII pretty much negate the "random battles: consumer no like" idea.

[Silvercry]

Random battles, along with their cousin the separate battle screen, are obsolete. They were forced on the genre by technical limitations that no longer exist. Also, I'm not sure how you can compare the static, preset camera angles found in FF VII with the complete control over the camera you have in XII, and say the former is somehow more dramatic with a straight face.

[Nifleheim7]

Also, I'm not sure how you can compare the static, preset camera angles found in FF VII with the complete control over the camera you have in XII, and say the former is somehow more dramatic with a straight face.

Yeah,so?Camera control in FFXII was (unfortunately) useless in battles.

[Fynn]

The story was great, although it was told in a somewhat less direct fashion, leaving the player to figure some stuff up himself. I think that's why people don't like it - the story is presented in a difficult way. I still believe it's one of the best and definitely the deepest story in any FF.

[Dr. Acula]

The Music
I, personally, didn't mind the music in this game. Some bits were memorable, some weren't. Like any game. The music fit in perfectly with the scenery IMO.

The Battle System
I found the battle system in this game to be a refreshing change. By this time random battles were starting to get on my nerves anyway. Sometimes the battles are really slow, but thats the same with any game, really.

The Love Story
I don't know about anyone else (maybe I'm a hopeless romantic on the inside) but I saw some subtle traces of love stories in there. Ashe really loved Rasler, Penelo seemed to have a thing for Vaan IMHO, and I'm sure Fran and Balthier were partners in a much less professional way too. Not to mention Ashe seemed to develop a crush on Balthier later on in the game (IMO Balthier seemed to like her a little bit too) and Vaan seemed to have a crush on Ashe too. It's also been debated that Ashe loves Vaan (she's starting to sound a bit like a slut).
So yeah, I'd say there's at least SOME emotion in there. But I don't really know since I haven't finished the game yet.

The Plot
Ok, so there's this bad guy called Vayne but at the start you don't think he's the bad guy. And you have to fight him. Having not played this game for a while that's all I've really picked up on. I've started on a new playthrough so once I'm a fair way through that I'll write a paragraph on the story.:D

[*Lady luck*]

Hmm... well this is not my favorite final fantasy. I have played it, and I really can't remember very much about this game, whereas I remember practically everything about FFVII and FFX. I also can’t say that I have any desire to ever play FFXII again.

1. I didn’t think the music was bad, it was pretty good actually.
2. I liked the new battle system, but I also like random battles. I haven’t played zillions games that have random battles so I wasn’t tired of them yet.
3. I do like love stories, but not having one in this game really didn’t take anything away.
4. The story just did not interest me.

In all, it was OK, but I won't ever play it again.

[hhr1dluv]

The Love Story
I don't know about anyone else (maybe I'm a hopeless romantic on the inside) but I saw some subtle traces of love stories in there. Ashe really loved Rasler, Penelo seemed to have a thing for Vaan IMHO, and I'm sure Fran and Balthier were partners in a much less professional way too. Not to mention Ashe seemed to develop a crush on Balthier later on in the game (IMO Balthier seemed to like her a little bit too) and Vaan seemed to have a crush on Ashe too. It's also been debated that Ashe loves Vaan (she's starting to sound a bit like a slut).
So yeah, I'd say there's at least SOME emotion in there. But I don't really know since I haven't finished the game yet.


Ooh...I would agree with most of your assessment about the potential couples in this game. I'm also a hopeless romantic.

From what I've played of XII (I'm up to the Henne Mines), I think one can make good cases for Balthier/Fran, Rasler/Ashe (obviously), and perhaps Penelo --> Vaan and Larsa --> Penelo.

I've heard that there's implied Balthier/Ashe later in the game. As for me, I like to think that Basch and Ashe might have a thing years after this game, though I usually can't stand huge age gaps with couples. (Eww to Auron and Rikku).

[Mr Cactuar]

The story was great, although it was told in a somewhat less direct fashion, leaving the player to figure some stuff up himself. I think that's why people don't like it - the story is presented in a difficult way. I still believe it's one of the best and definitely the deepest story in any FF.

How is it one of the deepest stories in any FF? Jeez, FF1 almost has a deeper story. Really, you're presented with a story about 2 major warring nations and the struggle for your small nation in between it all to gain control of its own state again. Thing is, is that its all pushed into about 1 month of a time span. You see the part at the beginning, you see Vayne taking over power of Dalmasca then you start off on the journey.

There is no backstory for any of the nations, you have no real idea as to why the nations are warring, the reasons as to why the monsters are there are stupid, and there are massive plotholes. How the hell did Penelo and Vaan learn to fight? What does the senate Archadia of the do? Where did the Judges of Archadia come from? What sort of country is Rosaria, whose to say they aren't the 'bad' guys? Why isn't Dalmasca an actual ally of Rosaria? What are licenses, why exactly are they there? They tried to cram waaaay to much into this game, and attempting to deny this is useless.

I'm not saying that everything in a game should be explained to you, but I just could not get into this game because I had no rational reason as to why everything was and why it was happening. Square should leave these sort of games to people who can make them, and make them well.

[Vivisteiner]

^I could explain those but it would take loooooong.


But the answers are there, although not always presented well. FFXII can be too subtle for its own good at times. They expect the audience to be paying attention to each sentence very closely, which is sometimes hard to do when there are distractions.

For example, one sentence revealed a whole lot about Judge Ghis, which you wouldn't have realised otherwise. Goes something like:

"Blood alone does not an emperror make, Vayne."

[Fynn]

The depth in this game is that it's more realistic when it comes to relationships, IMO. In any normal game, when someone takes your country, your objective is to get that revenge (that's to put it very simply), while here, Ashe really does have a dilemma, which makes us feel like she has a realistic conscience. In this game there are no 'good guys' or 'bad guys' - it's all just too much for me to put in one post. In this game you have to read between the lines - just like in a poem, or life, for that matter, where you don't get everything directly.

[Heath]

There is no backstory for any of the nations, you have no real idea as to why the nations are warring, the reasons as to why the monsters are there are stupid, and there are massive plotholes. How the hell did Penelo and Vaan learn to fight? What does the senate Archadia of the do? Where did the Judges of Archadia come from? What sort of country is Rosaria, whose to say they aren't the 'bad' guys? Why isn't Dalmasca an actual ally of Rosaria? What are licenses, why exactly are they there? They tried to cram waaaay to much into this game, and attempting to deny this is useless.

To try and answer some of the questions.

"How the hell did such and such learn to fight" is a pretty moot point in Final Fantasy. How the hell did Tidus learn to fight? Or Relm? Or Quina? Or Eiko There are plenty of characters in Final Fantasy (and in games in general) you could question how they learnt to fight, but you don't often see those questions raised for those. I don't think it's a particularly important point.

I saw Archadia as being a nation that was similar to how Britain used to be before the English Civil War, in that the job of the parliament (in this case the Senate) is to advise the head of state (the king/queen/emperor/empress/etc) and make decisions as a collective body but not to enforce them. Thus the senate can confirm things and lend legitimacy to decisions made by the monarch but have relatively little actual power except in an advisory role.

The reason that Dalmasca didn't ally themselves with Rozarria was because they valued their independence. They wanted no part of the war between Archades and Rozarria. They wanted to safeguard their status as a nation by remaining out of the way. Obviously had Dalmasca allied itself with Rozarria, it would've made Dalmasca itself fair game for attacks by Archades and Rozarria would've doubtlessly used Dalmasca as a base for their attacks against Archades. Should Rozarria have won the war, they would've probably taken over Archades' territory and would have had little concern for the junior partner of Dalmasca, who may have paid for Rozarria's protection with the surrender of their sovereignty.

[the holy meteor]

I have nothing bad to say about the game's score; it fits the game very well, but it's very unremarkable and has nothing memorable. I even found the vocal theme forgettable.

The battle system is great, I enjoyed it. You get through the game real quick, and even though the gambits are pretty much automatic, sit back and let the game play itself, I liked it because it allowed me to at least speed through and watch the story.

I get lost trying to keep track of what's going on, because, wow the dungeons and fields are long and get old. I don't mind that there's no central love story, but I had absolutely no empathy for the characters. I only found Balthier remotely interesting, and Fran had potential. I always thought that the best things about FF stories was the character development, or at least personality, and the characters in XII were just plain dull. Uh, Penelo. What's her purpose? Filler? She's just...there. Even Vaan was just there.

I only wish that the entire game was put together so that there wasn't 20 hours of mind numbing dungeons and battles between five minutes of actual plot advancement. I hope Squeenix got their act together with XIII because XII was potential misguided and turned into a mess.

[ReloadPsi]

"Daikatana" also springs to mind when thinking of this game.

Delayed to high hell, finally came out, there wasn't really anything special about it, and the AI system was lame (imagine if, in real life, you had to go spend fifty quid to learn to tell your friend to back you up in a fight).

People consider "No Gambits" to be one of the challenge. Newsflash: If you turn them off, the game is actually easier because now they smeggin' well do as they're told!

This belongs on the list of embarrassing games that took too long to come out and then sucked.

[Roto13]

^^^ The biggest thing I learned from that post is that you have no idea how to play FF XII. It sounds like you came up with a gambit configuration that didn't work and decided to stick with it rather than try something else.

[ReloadPsi]

^^^ The biggest thing I learned from that post is that you have no idea how to play FF XII. It sounds like you came up with a gambit configuration that didn't work and decided to stick with it rather than try something else.

No. I tried it with a Gambit configuration and the game was boring as hell with them on. Then I turned them off and opted to control every character manually like I normally do in these games and it was suddenly a lot more enjoyable. I admit the wording in that post is extremely misleading.

Gambits make the game very dull; sure you can get a configuration that works but then doesn't that just mean you may as well put down the controller? Seriously, what is the point of setting up a bunch of things that make the game play itself? I can select my own Hastes, Cures and Firagas, that's what FF is all about for me.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if you weren't a lazy gamer (which unfortunately a lot of people seem to be) then there was no need for Gambits at all.

[Heath]

I didn't bother to set gambits on the character I used as the team leader so I still was in control of battles and had plenty of fun with it. I might automatically set Libra to be cast so I can see HP or protect or shell in an area that requires it to save a bit of time, otherwise I was fully in control of my main character. That allowed me sufficient input into the battles while not having to worry about controlling the other characters because, hopefully, they'd have gambits that would be good enough to win any battle.

[Roto13]

Gambits make the game very dull; sure you can get a configuration that works but then doesn't that just mean you may as well put down the controller? Seriously, what is the point of setting up a bunch of things that make the game play itself? I can select my own Hastes, Cures and Firagas, that's what FF is all about for me.

Final Fantasy is the button presses? I always thought the fun part of RPGs was coming up with the right strategy for whatever situation you're in. Your gambits are you seeing a common situation and deciding to react to it the same way every time. You've already put in your command before the battle begins. What's so great about having to do the same thing over and over again?

[ReloadPsi]

Gambits make the game very dull; sure you can get a configuration that works but then doesn't that just mean you may as well put down the controller? Seriously, what is the point of setting up a bunch of things that make the game play itself? I can select my own Hastes, Cures and Firagas, that's what FF is all about for me.

Final Fantasy is the button presses? I always thought the fun part of RPGs was coming up with the right strategy for whatever situation you're in. Your gambits are you seeing a common situation and deciding to react to it the same way every time. You've already put in your command before the battle begins. What's so great about having to do the same thing over and over again?

Now I see why everyone hates sidescrolling platformers these days in favour of cut-scene filled bore-a-thons: They die a lot mindlessly running into pits, not realising that once they jump over the first one they still have to manually jump over all the others. In other words, Super Mario Bros. was the same situation over and over; jump over things that are in the way (and occasionally ON them), so that game would've surely been better with a "Jump" Gambit then. Man, no wonder video games aren't taken seriously by any society outside of Japan.

Final Fantasy is the button presses? Yes. Final Fantasy is a video game, and video games are the button presses. See the joypad? It has buttons. You press them to play. If you want to watch battles and do nothing while it all happens on its own then there are films for those... epic movies about cheesy fantasy wars would be ideal for you; they all play out similarly and you can watch people react the same way to common situations (fight and defeat the villain).

Gambits are only a small part of why I dislike the game (as I could turn them off and ignore them), I don't know why you're taking it upon yourself to have such a disproportionately big a go at me about it.

[Roto13]

RPGs are completely different from platformers. Pressing the button to input a command takes no skill whatsoever. You don't just press A and magically appear on the other side of a hole. In Final Fantasy, selecting fight does one of two things. Either it hits the enemy with a physical attack, or it doesn't. There is no challenge there. There's no reason to bother with it every time. Might as well let it be done automatically.

Also, if you're going to get upset every time someone disagrees with you and raises valid points as to why, you should probably get off the internet.

[ReloadPsi]

Also, if you're going to get upset every time someone disagrees with you and raises valid points as to why, you should probably get off the internet.

Actually what upset me was that you made the grossly incorrect oversimplification that I "didn't know how to play FFXII" which was completely not true, so I explained it and that didn't sparkle with you. In truth I had to sell the game on to pay living costs, that's why I never finished it unfortunately. I played the game without Gambits and in terms of combat and level grinding tried to have an absolute blast, but as I originally said, I found the overall experience dull and lifeless, and with Gambits on or off that wasn't gonna change.

If you're gonna try and read between the lines in people's posts and find hidden meanings that aren't there, you should probably get off the internet. Or go hang with Future Esthar. You might come up with some pretty amusing theories on what is really being said in Jesswee's posts.

[Roto13]

You're the one getting your underwear in a bunch over nothing, not me. Calm down.


People consider "No Gambits" to be one of the challenge. Newsflash: If you turn them off, the game is actually easier because now they smeggin' well do as they're told!

How does that not leave the impression that you don't know how to use gambits? You heavily implied that you were using gambits but it made the game harder.

[ReloadPsi]

You're the one getting your underwear in a bunch over nothing, not me. Calm down.


People consider "No Gambits" to be one of the challenge. Newsflash: If you turn them off, the game is actually easier because now they smeggin' well do as they're told!

How does that not leave the impression that you don't know how to use gambits? You heavily implied that you were using gambits but it made the game harder.

So I went on to explain that the post was poorly worded and misleading, but as it had been responded to already, editing it was pointless. What I was trying to put across was that Gambits actually impose some pretty weird limitations on your characters that you can round by simply manually inputting the commands.

"People consider No Gambits to be a challenge" was a go at people who consider it to be a challenge. That's like saying ATB on Active instead of Wait is a challenge; it's just a very simple in-game option that makes a minor difference.

[Roto13]

Yeah. Then I didn't say you were doing it wrong again. You're also acting like I'm attacking you personally or something, and that also never happened. Chill out.

[Rostum]

Wow, that's some trivial stuff to bicker over.

I liked where the gambit system was heading, but it was far too simplified towards the end -- if they were to expand on it, it would have been extremely fun, imo.

[bucklebunny]

Everything I want to say has been said by somebody somewhere, but here goes anyways:

The battle system was brilliant. I loved it. It was so smooth and fun, and not tedious at all. Gambits didn't take any of the fun out of it (i agree with roto), which was a worry to me at first, and there were still genuine scares... like when an elemental floated too close and you had to run the @#$%^ away.

The graphics... yea, I don't even have to say anything <3

The characters were individually fine, though Penelo and Fraan seemed void of personality to me, and yea, I didn't care as much about them as I did with other FFs, but there was *some* hope...

The story... it was eh. I don't need a sweeping love story at all, but I just didn't really care... the threat of war seemed far away and things seemed far too cheery for me to worry. I'm all for political intrigue... as long as it brings the drama, which FFXII really didn't, in the end. There were threads that I got excited about, but they just ended, or weren't as interesting as I expected them to be. It had some major potential, but there just seemed to be a disconnect between the politics and people of the story. That was my biggest problem with it-- bland.

[auberginedreams]

IMO this was a very good game, it just wasn't a good FINAL FANTASY game. It should have been a sequel of sorts to Vagrant Story, not part of the main FF series. I really enjoyed this game, but I was ultimately disappointed because I was expecting something along the lines FFVII-FFX.

[Bolivar]

Also, I'm not sure how you can compare the static, preset camera angles found in FF VII with the complete control over the camera you have in XII, and say the former is somehow more dramatic with a straight face.

Um, it's actually pretty easy. the camera in games like VII would move, zoom in/out depending on what kind of action is taking place. In games like XII, it's simply staying in one spot while you watch the same animation take place over and over again. The battles in VII looked like you were controlling a movie... for the battles in XII, you could move the camera, sure, but it always stayed the same distance and you were simply watching the same thing from a different point of view. Have you played VII or XII???

[Renmiri]

Me and Final Fantasy XII have a bit of a love/hate relationship.
I've got to agree with Mr Cactuar on the music, it's just not memorable

The absence of random battles... I really miss them.

I don't think it's the absence of a love story that brings this game down necessarily, it's the lack of any real emotion from any of the characters. ...

And Vayne! What a bad villan..

The basic idea for the plot... Square failed to build on it properly, ...

However, I don't think this is a necessarily bad game. It's just that, when compared to other Final Fantasies, it doesn't live up to the same standards.
Agreed 100% :D


The battle system was brilliant

The graphics... yea, I don't even have to say anything <3

..Penelo and Fraan seemed void of personality to me, and yea, I didn't care as much about them as I did with other FFs....

The story... it was eh. I don't need a sweeping love story at all, but I just didn't really care... the threat of war seemed far away and things seemed far too cheery for me to worry. I'm all for political intrigue... as long as it brings the drama, which FFXII really didn't, in the end. There were threads that I got excited about, but they just ended, or weren't as interesting as I expected them to be. It had some major potential, but there just seemed to be a disconnect between the politics and people of the story. That was my biggest problem with it-- bland.
The wasted potential!!! It pissed me off

IMO this was a very good game, it just wasn't a good FINAL FANTASY game. It should have been a sequel of sorts to Vagrant Story, not part of the main FF series. I really enjoyed this game, but I was ultimately disappointed because I was expecting something along the lines FFVII-FFX.

Yup, same here

[Serapy]

Gambits is unique, I don't see how is that wrong. The way how I see Gambits is like it's making you feel more comfortable in certain situations.

[Mr Cactuar]

Gambits is unique, I don't see how is that wrong. The way how I see Gambits is like it's making you feel more comfortable in certain situations.

Because they're boring and make things way to easy.

[Roto13]

Gambits is unique, I don't see how is that wrong. The way how I see Gambits is like it's making you feel more comfortable in certain situations.

Because they're boring and make things way to easy.

Only slightly easier than inputting those obvious commands yourself.

Also, watching the same action a million times in VII was no more interesting because there were a few different camera angles.

[Serapy]

Gambits is unique, I don't see how is that wrong. The way how I see Gambits is like it's making you feel more comfortable in certain situations.

Because they're boring and make things way to easy.

Only slightly easier than inputting those obvious commands yourself.

Also, watching the same action a million times in VII was no more interesting because there were a few different camera angles.

True, which doesn't make them boring. I played with gambits on, I had a lot of fun. So you are wrong on this one, Cactuar or maybe it's because I'm dumb, huh?

Sometimes Gambits is needed when you go AFK for a bit :P. I'd turn Gambits on when I need to go to bathrooms, make a drink quickly or whatever. There are some long fights in the game that can last more than an hour, so I'd use gambits in those situations as well.

But if you disagree with the idea then just disable gambits, it's simple as that. The battle system is completely different than the other FF games so there's a very good reason why the disable gambits option exists ;)

[Setzer Gabianni]

FFXII was my twelth Final Fantasy (1,2, 4-10 and TA), but it's quickly become one of my favourites. The music was fantastic. It's not Uematsu, but that's not a bad thing. Uematsu has some fantastic music, but to say the music isn't good would be a huge disservice to the composers of the soundtrack. The music slotted seamlessly with the environments and so the music added to the overall ambiance of every area that you visited. It didn't define the area, it added and developed the individual regions of Ivalice. The fact that the scenery and the music complimented each other so well in, what was, one of the most immersing and impressive Final Fantasy worlds yet was a definite plus to me. There are numerous great pieces of music, such as the Sochen Cave Palace, Seeking Power and The Forgotten Capital that I really enjoyed listening to and enhance the experience of exploring Ivalice which was, in my view, one of the most enjoyable aspects of the whole game.

The absence of random battles were also another enjoyable thing. In dungeons it would mean you might have to plan the route you'd take because you'd be bump into different monsters depending on the way in which you went. It also seemed a lot more natural and added to the overall depth of the environments. I mean, random battles are terribly artificial, really. If you were actually exploring a temple infested with monsters, sure, they might jump out of nowhere in a deserted corridor, but chances are they'd be wandering around the dungeon itself, using magic upon themselves and prowling around looking for intruders. It made the game quicker and added to the flow of the game, while random battles are, let's face it, fairly disruptive.

As Vivisteiner, the absence of a love story doesn't weaken the game at all. Actually, I quite welcomed this change. Too many films and computer games these days feel the need to throw in love interests and love stories when they aren't really necessary to the plot and serve as a distraction, whereas FFXII departs from this rather successfully. Sure, I enjoyed the love story of the other games, but it was a breath of fresh air not to have one.

As for the story, I found it to be terribly engaging and enjoyable. History is one of my passions in life and the study of historical conflicts often means examining the domestic and foreign causes of strife between the nations. That we are given a rather complete picture of a conflict that develops and escalates as time goes on and is effecting all the citizens of Ivalice instead of just the party and a group of choice nobles was rather nice and in my view a fair bit more realistic. The game is not dull, it's just a bit more complex and needs more attention paid to it than some of the others.

FFXII is a fantastic game and I think some people slate it more than it deserves.


This post wins my eternal respect - that comment about the music alone is like, uber truthfulness.

[Polaris]

Hm I started playing it 2day at my bf's place and I didn't feel it was that terrible! It's just different, it has a good story at the beginning so so far so good :)

[Bolivar]

Also, watching the same action a million times in VII was no more interesting because there were a few different camera angles.

It's not because there were different camera angles, but it employed different directorial techniques for using the camera, different shots, movements, etc. that made the battles just as cinematic as the cutscenes.

Of course after a "million" times the novelty might wear off, but overall it made the battles far more interesting than XII, and even the more fixed-camera uses in VIII and IX. I'm sorry if you yourself do not personally enjoy things like that.

[Renmiri]

Quote Renmiri on FFXII

I bitch about the game a lot, mainly for the lack of story and weak characters, but it is still the best of the series out there.

She loves it more then X!

Nah.. Don't love it more than X. I'm a FFX fan girl and highly biased towards it. But XII is a good game, I actually played it twice as much than X (450 hours of X and 1,000 hours of XII) :p

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

My opinion of FFXII:

Plot

The plot for FFXII is highly political, which makes some fans a bit sad. If you are a big fan of FFT, like I am, then you will really appreciate the similarities in the plot as a genre. There is no need for an epic love story to make it a good plot. FFT showed us that. That being said, I wish there was more depth to the plot. It seemed to me they could have easily added more depth to the plot, especially by adding a bit more background to the characters. As I appreciate the fact that it is not focused on characters, I found that they did not balance it out enough.

Battle System

Hands down the best thing to happen to FF. I love the new battle system! I seriously find it more engrossing and much more interactive that the old, select action->sub-menu select->target and sit and wait type deal. FFXII uses the same principles, but gives you a lot more control. Especially the fact that there are no random battles. I am sorry but sometimes I want to get the hell out of a dungeon and not fight my way out or pray that the Run command works when my HP is critical.

Gambits is an iffy topic for me. I find throughout most of the game, the gambits available are not that useful. It is only towards the end of the game where the most useful gambits come around. I like the fact that I can have my team able to revive and heal people so I do not have to always pay attention to the HP bars. It allows you to take more time to think about a battle plan. Sometimes it gets frustrating having to override your gambits because your stupid Charge Gambit is not efficient enough (I want there to be a MP<5%!). Besides that, I tend to leave my party leader (Vaan) without gambits unless he is doing a repetitive action (like stealing or using the same spell for ten times in a row). The rest of my characters have Gambits on to do the basic stuff, though I still constantly intervene, especially with Fran and her magic. Part of me wishes for more Gambit slots but then I realize if there were more, it'd become too automatic plus having only 12 (or is it 10?) allows for better planning.

Summons...make me sad. They are pretty ineffective after the first quarter of the game, aside from the normal field battles. Though I wish they were more developed within the plot, I have to say that they are not a cost effective thing. Sorry, 3 MP bars to use a summon or use the same bars for a Quickening? I'd go for the Quickenings. If they made the summons less exhausting on the MP then I think they'd be worthwhile. Since that is not magically going to happen, they can go keep dust.

Yay for magic being useful through the whole game~

Audio-Visuals

Visually this game is stunning. It has one of the best visuals to date for a FF game. It is pretty~ That aside the music is good. I get irritated by those comments where they say the music is not memorable. Sorry to burst your bubble, but most FF scores are pretty not memorable to me. Maybe it is due to some internal factor within but it is true. The only songs I know are usually the opening/game menu screen ones and the vocal theme songs and inserts. That aside Aerith's Theme and that Opera one from FFVI are the only "memorable" ones for me.

Overall

I think FFXII deserves all the critical acclaim it got. The game, with all its faults, is still one of the best FF experiences I ever had. As with any game, there is always room for improvement, but FFXII's good points make up for its bad one. The game was well thought out insofar as it has something for every player. It has plenty of content that allow the players to come back with tons of side-quests (even if I did not do half of them since I am not a completionist).

[Cloudane]

Seems I'm late to this party, as I lacked the enthusiasm for this game sooo much that it took me an entire year to play it to the end. I finally finished it earlier this week. This is Final Fantasy we're talking about here, even FF8 was worthy of my usual week-or-so finishing time, yet this took a year I was that unexcited by it??? Anyway.

I haven't read through all 10 pages yet, so apologies for any replication of things already said!

I'm not actually ranting about FFXII here... in the very very end when the story and character development started to appear (far too late) I loved it. Next playthrough, who knows. But following is my take on why I was less than enthusiastic, referencing Mr Cactuar's thoughts.


1. The music.

Normally I would hesitate to put this at number 1, but now that you mention it I don't know, maybe it does deserve top spot. I observed the lack of decent music myself. Music is a HUGE influence, especially in emotional scenes, which is a lack that we'll get to shortly.

I gave FFXII a mention for this exact reason on the Narutofan forums as a reason for Naruto Shippuuden not being as well received as Part 1. This won't make sense to most people I guess, but my point is the power of music applies everywhere not just FF, and is very well known for the effect it can have on a storyline as it unfolds.

Losing Uematsu was the stupidest thing they've ever done IMO. I got the impression he left out of poor treatment (or put it this way, if they really wanted to keep him they would have tried harder), and you just don't do that to someone who injects pure love into your game.


2. Random Battles. If it ain't broke, don't replace it.

Urgh, yes and no. Doing away with random battles doesn't have to be a bad thing - Chrono Trigger did it well. What made it annoying for me was that it reminded me of MMORPGs. I play single-player games like Final Fantasy to get away from World of Warcraft grinding, and this just reminded me of it and fed me with more. I've had enough of grinding dammit!

I kind of get your point here. FF is FF, people love it for what it is, or hate it for what it is. People hate Marmite, but do they turn it into chocolate? No, they continue making Marmite, as they should, because even though some people hate it, they have a very loyal fan base and will be in business forever. Same with FF. Once they turn it into Offline WoW, it just becomes another erm.... Solo MMORPG.


3. Where is the love?

Where is the character development come to that?! That was my biggest disappointment. I did not GIVE A TOSS about the characters at all.

I assume everyone has played FF7 by now but do edit my post if the lack of spoiler tags is inappropriate... anyway the death of Aeris hit me. Hard. How can a person feel so much impact over the death of a fictional character? Because you'd gotten to know her and care about her and "your" character had had fun with her.

In contrast, I kept thinking "you know, if any of this lot were to die I wouldn't bat an eyelid". I didn't know them, didn't care about them, and this continued for 99% of the game. They didn't even talk to each other most of the time! Sometimes they would have a little bit of dialog in a new area: Balthier would make the occasional cold, snide remark, Ashe would bark angrily about revenge like she had a very bad case of PMT, and the two pirate kids would giggle together which I already knew about from the existence of Revenant Wings. (And I can't think what the point of Vaan and Penelo's existence was, other than to introduce Revenant Wings, to be honest)

It did happen eventually. Towards the end of the game we found a little more about them, got a hint that they were actually friends (I wasn't really sure!) and that they cared about each other etc. Shame it was too little too late!

There was love - Balthier and Fran. I didn't even realise until the ending though (from the Bahamut scene onwards) - up until then I thought they were just buddies.

Character Development was #1 failure for me. I think on second playthrough I'll feel better about it, but the first time I just felt like a stranger amongst strangers.


4. Whacky doodly piddly pop.

That made no sense to you? Really neither does the story off FFXII.

I don't know.... I think it made very good sense. Older FFs have been weirder.

What didn't make sense was the Shakespeare language, which is something I'm rubbish at following. I lost count of the number of times I had to pause the game and re-read what was said (subtitles are a must) to make sense of what just happened, and often these were epic moments. What should've been an epic moment was ruined by "WTF did he just say?" /google ffxii game script


Edit: Here's my "Point 5":
You're not really given any reason to care about the cause you're fighting, IMO. You're plunged into a war between two nations with no real "good" or "evil" side just, one slightly more evil than the other. For most of the game (right up until the sun cryst decision i.e. the start of the endgame) I felt like I was playing the villain. I was following this PMT-filled bloodthirsty wench on her crusade for revenge, I didn't like her and half hoped someone would smack her upside the head and tell her to stop being so spiteful.



It was ok, but if I had to pick a "worst Final Fantasy", XII would be it. I hope and pray XIII is as VII-like as it looks.

[Wolf Kanno]

I was really trying my best to stay out of this thread after my initial comment but two post caught my interest...



How is it one of the deepest stories in any FF? Jeez, FF1 almost has a deeper story. Really, you're presented with a story about 2 major warring nations and the struggle for your small nation in between it all to gain control of its own state again. Thing is, is that its all pushed into about 1 month of a time span. You see the part at the beginning, you see Vayne taking over power of Dalmasca then you start off on the journey.

Most of the FFs are never presented in a practical timeline. The opening scenes are literally a mix mash of a two year period, its point is to make the player understand what going on. I don't think a typical narration would have worked as well as actually seeing what happened.


There is no backstory for any of the nations, you have no real idea as to why the nations are warring, the reasons as to why the monsters are there are stupid, and there are massive plotholes. How the hell did Penelo and Vaan learn to fight? What does the senate Archadia of the do? Where did the Judges of Archadia come from? What sort of country is Rosaria, whose to say they aren't the 'bad' guys? Why isn't Dalmasca an actual ally of Rosaria? What are licenses, why exactly are they there? They tried to cram waaaay to much into this game, and attempting to deny this is useless.

Read the beastiary, it tells you most of this info. Why doesn't the story do it for you? Cause your whole party is intricately involved and aware of the political climate. To them its common knowledge, for them to have to explain everything would break the fourth wall and destroy the immersion of its tale. Rozarrio has a history as a very militaristic nation. The game states its an empire in name only but the military is in actual control. House Margrace (Al-Cid) is trying to limit their power but the military hardliners are taking Archades acquisition of Dalmasca as the first warnings of an impending invasion (which is wht Al-Cid is secretly helping Larsa and Lady Ashe).

Archades is a nation fromed from a city-state that was controlled by a Senate. Its military eventually gained control and overthrew the senate establishing the kingdom as an empire. Eventually House Solidar overthrew (the game hints to key assassinations) the military influence and created the Ministry of Law (The Judges) as a means of controlling the military. Consequently, House Solidor took control of the Imperial throne. Archades is not located in an area with resources or easy access to water. Thus they had to expand their empire through military might. Their only advantage is knowledge and technology. This is all explained in the beastiary and in-game citations of characters. The explanantion of Dalmasca's relationship was already explained by Heath.
There are no "good guys" or "bad guys" in this story. Like the real world, there is no clear cut answers. I feel this is the strongest quality of its story.

The game opens up Vaan training to fight in the sewers. He may not be a professional like Balthier or Basch but he does have some experience. Penelo may not have any in-game explanation but logic can give you a few answers.

The liscences are an extension of the control Archades has on people according to the design team. They are suppose to symbolize the oppression the Judges and Archades have over people.


I'm not saying that everything in a game should be explained to you, but I just could not get into this game because I had no rational reason as to why everything was and why it was happening. Square should leave these sort of games to people who can make them, and make them well.

It sounds to me like you never bothered completeing the beastairy or read up on anything. The game actually gives you a wealth of back story into everything. XII's Ivalice is easily the most detailed world in the FF series.


Normally I would hesitate to put this at number 1, but now that you mention it I don't know, maybe it does deserve top spot. I observed the lack of decent music myself. Music is a HUGE influence, especially in emotional scenes, which is a lack that we'll get to shortly.

I gave FFXII a mention for this exact reason on the Narutofan forums as a reason for Naruto Shippuuden not being as well received as Part 1. This won't make sense to most people I guess, but my point is the power of music applies everywhere not just FF, and is very well known for the effect it can have on a storyline as it unfolds.

Losing Uematsu was the stupidest thing they've ever done IMO. I got the impression he left out of poor treatment (or put it this way, if they really wanted to keep him they would have tried harder), and you just don't do that to someone who injects pure love into your game.


I agree with you that music is incredibly intrical to telling a story but I disagree on a few points. Uematsu is a wonderful composer but not all of his works are fantastic. In my own opinion, his last nearly perfect soundtrack was VII. The others that came after have good soundtracks but not really all that memorable outside of a few tracks. This is how I percieve the soundtrack of XII as well so musically it doesn't bother me. Besides, even if Uematsu did work at SE during the games production, he wouldn't have done the soundtrack. Sakimoto is the composer for Ivalice. He's been the composer for all of Matsuo's Ivalice projects, so to have someone else compose for it would seem awkward.




Urgh, yes and no. Doing away with random battles doesn't have to be a bad thing - Chrono Trigger did it well. What made it annoying for me was that it reminded me of MMORPGs. I play single-player games like Final Fantasy to get away from World of Warcraft grinding, and this just reminded me of it and fed me with more. I've had enough of grinding dammit!

I kind of get your point here. FF is FF, people love it for what it is, or hate it for what it is. People hate Marmite, but do they turn it into chocolate? No, they continue making Marmite, as they should, because even though some people hate it, they have a very loyal fan base and will be in business forever. Same with FF. Once they turn it into Offline WoW, it just becomes another erm.... Solo MMORPG.


The only true defining feature of FF is that it tries to be revolutionary. For this reason I don't feel that XII is really any different from any previous FF before it cause the series has never had a defining formula like DQ and other RPG series. ADB is really no different than ATB, you just get to move around freely. Granted I agree we could have done without the grinding for the ultimate weapons (I need HOW many electrums?!) but for the most part, I feel many of the MMo elements work in its favor. It just needs balancing.



Where is the character development come to that?! That was my biggest disappointment. I did not GIVE A TOSS about the characters at all.

I assume everyone has played FF7 by now but do edit my post if the lack of spoiler tags is inappropriate... anyway the death of Aeris hit me. Hard. How can a person feel so much impact over the death of a fictional character? Because you'd gotten to know her and care about her and "your" character had had fun with her.

In contrast, I kept thinking "you know, if any of this lot were to die I wouldn't bat an eyelid". I didn't know them, didn't care about them, and this continued for 99% of the game. They didn't even talk to each other most of the time! Sometimes they would have a little bit of dialog in a new area: Balthier would make the occasional cold, snide remark, Ashe would bark angrily about revenge like she had a very bad case of PMT, and the two pirate kids would giggle together which I already knew about from the existence of Revenant Wings. (And I can't think what the point of Vaan and Penelo's existence was, other than to introduce Revenant Wings, to be honest)

It did happen eventually. Towards the end of the game we found a little more about them, got a hint that they were actually friends (I wasn't really sure!) and that they cared about each other etc. Shame it was too little too late!

There was love - Balthier and Fran. I didn't even realise until the ending though (from the Bahamut scene onwards) - up until then I thought they were just buddies.

Character Development was #1 failure for me. I think on second playthrough I'll feel better about it, but the first time I just felt like a stranger amongst strangers.


http://forums.eyesonff.com/2110033-post64.html This should give you a better idea of the cast...

I feel there was quite a bit of growth but unlike previous games it was less talk and more about action. The cast had no reason to become buddy buddy with each other and actually there is quite a bit of dialogue between them (separated by long spans of dungeon crawling). I feel that unlike previous FFs, your cast actually has real motives, their stories are far more real, and personal. Lady Ashe's struggle to choose between saving her kingdom or getting revenge was beautifully told. Her personal growth is the heart of XII's story. Certainly she's unlikable but then is there a rule that says characters must be likable in a story. Its not like you and I like every person we meet, so there is a stronger sense of realism cause she is such a flawed character.

[KoShiatar]

Please note before reading what follows that I don't dislike the game. However, it's not the FF I like best, either.

Why? In my opinion, it is the clear product of overwork.
The game has too much of everything. The costumes are too elaborated (and, in the case of females, too skimpy), the dungeons are too long, the sidequests too many, and too complicated, without an efficacious way to keep track of them all (except for Hunts), and so on.
The game itself is too long. Heck, I'm at almost 120 hours, and I'm nowhere near a solution of events! Am I ever going to see the end of it?
Everything is overdone. The game's got a lot of grandeur in it, and that's a good thing, but the developers seemed to forget that it also needs to catch - and hold - the attention of the player.
That could have been done with a solid plot and strong-minded characters, but it has not. Van is a stupid kiddo to say the least, and he's supposed to be the lead, but it clearly shows he was added in the cast just because people at SE were afraid not to sell enough without an androgynous blonde boy in the cast. Come on, could someone who is no longer twelve ever really like him? On the other hand a character like Bash, who's got the most interesting backstory of all, is shoved aside to leave more spaces for Ashe whining about the nethicite.

The game's got many good sides. The battle system is one of the funniest I tried, and graphics are great under every aspect, just to mention a couple. But it just misses that special something...

[Cloudane]

Some fair points Wolf Kanno.

It's very much a matter of preference I think, rather than the game being "good" or "bad". Yes the politics are very real and the characters are very real etc but my personal opinion is that we get enough of that in, well, real life.

I think the gist of the matter for me, is that it's Final Fantasy so I expect it to be fantasy (in every sense of the word), as it's always been from FF1. Cheesy cliché stories about Evil Bastards wanting to destroy the world, a young group of adventurers who end up saving it, initially moody characters with "issues" that are unraveled and resolved throughout the game, the team having a laugh and bonding with each other and of course some romance etc.

Yes it's all very cliché and some people think it's a tired old routine, but IMO this is the whole point, and previously I would've said "if you don't want cheesy fantasy clichés, go play something else thank you very much because the rest of us like it and want it to stay that way". Obviously that doesn't really apply now :p But that was the point of FF for me I think. It's like if Doctor Who suddenly started using proper realistic science and instead of 'wibbly wobbly timey wimey'. Just not right IMO.

To each his own of course, but I think this is exactly why I was disappointed with it, this may apply to other fans.

If this is signaling a permanent shift in the way Final Fantasy is written, then fair enough, I shall be the one to bog off and play another game. Lost Odyssey looks good, they say it "contains everything a good JRPG should, including a pointy-nosed stompy monster." :)

[Aurombadom]

My to cents: Its to much going around killing monsters without any story to accompany it, which makes it boring for me, haven't played the game in about a year and only got to the san yeansea (correct spelling?).

Thinking about picking it up again now though... but I'm gonna need to find myself some good guide on how to be a more effective lv`er or something.

[Cloudane]

Levelling isn't too bad in this game actually. If you enter a new area and keep dying all the time (especially expensive if you have phoenix down on gambit) just go back and fight stuff for a couple of levels. I'd usually head to where thar be lots of skeletons - there are a few of those areas - and chain-kill them for lots of valuable bones to sell in addition to the XP :)

If you're like me, the main problem you're "stuck" is because you don't find it all that motivating. Rest assured it does get good at the very end.

[Tabris]

I am now playing this game second time around, and I only have two negative things to point out:

1. The game had so many sidequests, dungeons, levellings, hunts etc., and so few cutscenes that when you finally had a new cutscene you had forgotten where you were in the story. Or at least, I had.

2. The License Board system made everyone the same very quickly, and I am not sure if the ranged-ability of the ranges weapons made up for their extreme weakness compared to swords, greatswords, spears and axes. The Zodiac System sounds brilliant and is just what I would have wanted in the regular game. *curses Square for their "international game"-concept*

Some of the music is indeed pale and blend in, but I find some of that in every FF-game, to be honest. I absolutely love the FF-X soundtrack, but almost the entire disc three is made of "mood"-songs that are forgotten the minute they are finished. A lot of the XII themes are great tunes - Rabanastre, Lowtown, Westersand and the Esper battles comes to mind immediately.

I am also one of those who found the plot and lack of a love story refreshing. Not because I disliked the plots or love stories in any other FFs, but simply because it was something new. Then again, X was my first FF, so I guess I am too new a FF-geek to be in love with the old school. (Nothing wrong with that, of course).

Oddly enough, though, I found the game much, much more fun the second time around than the first.

[Hazzard]

It really disappoints me how a character with so much vivid potential such as Basch is just ignored and casted away. He could of been the total badass in this game. Damn.

[Tabris]

Basch was to me an ok character, but not too interesting to be honest. I was quite interested in the back story of Balthier and Fran, though. Not just their seperate history, but how they met and hooked up. Even in the official strategy guide, it's says that Fran is Balthier's "business partner" (yup, with the quotations marks).

[Cloudane]

I did read somewhere (maybe in this very thread?) that Basch was originally going to be the main character. But they decided that proper manly looking main characters weren't as popular as girly ones, and so they introduced Vaan.

Not sure where that theory came from, so take with a pinch of salt. Makes sense to me though.

[Heath]

I've heard that as well. I'm unsure where (it may even have been in this thread!), but it sounds plausible enough.

[Cyric]

After reading the first few pages of posts in this thread, then reading the vent about the Espers, and then using my own playing experience I think I've figured out why people are so split on whether they like this game or not.

It has a relatively steep learning curve. I loved the battlesystems in FFX and FFX-2, FFVIII, pretty much any FF I've played for any length of time eventually won me over to the battlesystem. They've all got their pros and cons, and when you think about it, as a system, the aspects of each do make sense. At first when I started playing FFXII, I knew I was in for one helluva ride trying to learn the battlesystem, simply because they put you through one of the most extensive battlesystem "tutorials" I have ever had to go through. I bought the game within a week of it's release, and have only recently actually gotten the hang of it. Admittedly, I did take a hiatus from the game for a while, but I really don't think many will disagree with me. It is VERY tricky, but once you get the knack of it, it is VERY powerful. The gambit system is probably one of the most interesting concepts that Square, SquareSoft and SquareEnix have ever come up with, but I don't like it. I don't like the gambit system because I don't know about you, but I don't consider walking up to a monster and doing nothing while the people on screen are scripted to kill everything, fun. It's boring. I tried to offset that boredom by trying to focus my energy on the story. FFX and FFX-2 were the last FF's that I played before XII. I deeply love(d) that story. So realistically, what are the chances of the next one being able to live up to it if it isn't the same story? I was prepared for the let-down. I actually had to watch all of the FMV's from FFXII alone before I understood that it was more of a war-story than an adventure. With that under my belt, I loaded up FFXII and actually gave it a good solid 1-2 months of play time and got about 1/3 of the way through, before I got bored again. I even tried loading up the GameShark to help speed things along a bit, which it did nicely, so I could pay more attention to how the story develops but the story just was too plain. I've so far gotten the impression that people that hated/didn't like the story in FFX/FFX-2 thought the battlesystem was great/fun. In my opinion, FFXII has a plain story with a battlesystem that is powerful when one knows how to use it, but is difficult to learn. In order to make it a true winner, they needed to make at least ONE of those two aspects fun just to keep the gamer's attention. Another thing I didn't like about XII is that Vaan looked like he was wearing a heavy-duty wonderbra. I liked the FMV's, but there was nowhere near enough of them. FFX and FFX-2 each had about 2 hours of movie footage...FFXII only has 43m 38s of it.

All-in-all, I commend SE for trying to "spice things up," but they've only succeeded in keeping my attention on the game up to the 33% mark, and it's still my first time through! There is simply just too much for the player to learn. As I've said, I just got the hang of using the Gambits...but now it's the Espers, and omfg, the Quickenings! The Quickenings, they are powerful yes, but I don't have any freaking clue what I'm doing besides hitting whatever button comes up.

Just to sum up what I just said here are the 3 aspects of the Post-2D Era Final Fantasy that make or break it, and my opinions for each:

Story = plain, boring
Battlesystem = powerful, but hard to get the hang of
FMV = Beautiful, but not enough of them

So I guess on a scale of 0 to 3, my opinion of FFXII would be a 1. Half a mark each from the Battlesystem and the FMV's.

[Tabris]

X is my favourite FF, and I loved the story and the battlesystem in both X and XII. But XII went from very good to great when I played it the second time around - as I do now.

[Mo-Nercy]

The poetic nature of FFXII's script is what really makes it the best in the series thus far for me.

I'm seeing a lot of negativity towards the battle system. Now, I've never really played a whole lot of MMORPGs in my time, not because of the actual gameplay, but because of the people. Not everyone, of course, just the tiny percentage that brings about my loss of faith in mankind. Anyway, FFXII was essentially all the fun of an MMO, for only me to enjoy. As far as I'm concerned, SE have catered for my needs perfectly. =]

On a more serious note, getting away from the random battle scene is refreshing too. I'm not going to exaggerate the nature of random battling like some others have. Random battles never used to appear "every two seconds" and for the most part, it was quite tolerable. But let's say, you're a little underleveled, but you're keen to carry on with the story anyway. FFXII gives you more of a fighting chance, not only because you can flee without constantly changing of screens, but also because of the sheer amount of status effects you can use on your opponents to turn the battle in your favour. In previous games, spells like Sleep, Berserk, Slow, Blind etc. were formalities, you get them and you never use them, but in FFXII, you'd have to be suicidal or power-leveled to not make use of status effects.

But if some people don't like it. That's just how it goes.

[Roogle]

Please note before reading what follows that I don't dislike the game. However, it's not the FF I like best, either.

Why? In my opinion, it is the clear product of overwork.
The game has too much of everything. The costumes are too elaborated (and, in the case of females, too skimpy), the dungeons are too long, the sidequests too many, and too complicated, without an efficacious way to keep track of them all (except for Hunts), and so on.
The game itself is too long. Heck, I'm at almost 120 hours, and I'm nowhere near a solution of events!

I agree, KoShiatar. This game was in development for several years and, with the lull provided by the release of Final Fantasy XI, gamers were expecting this game to be another Final Fantasy VII. I thought that the game was too detailed and lost itself in its own plot because of the depth of its gameplay. The characters hardly interact between hours upon hours of gameplay and the story can get lost as a result.


I did read somewhere (maybe in this very thread?) that Basch was originally going to be the main character. But they decided that proper manly looking main characters weren't as popular as girly ones, and so they introduced Vaan.

Not sure where that theory came from, so take with a pinch of salt.

This is stated in the List of Final Fantasy XII characters on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characters_of_Final_Fantasy_XII). It appears that this may be speculation, though, because the references for that statement refer to the following question-and-answer session with one of the developers, Akihiko Yoshida:

IGN: Final Fantasy XII Q&A (http://ps2.ign.com/articles/441/441293p1.html)


Q: There seems to be a trend of FF games towards younger looking, more effeminate male leads. Did you ever consider making a more rugged looking hero?

Lot's of laughter as the super translater person tries to figure out how to describe Vaan as "effeminate."

Yoshida: In the early stages of development the hero character was more rugged -- big and tough. As we started shaping up the scenario and taking into consideration the target demographic, the character became what you see today. There were other ideas tossed around.

[Vivisteiner]

I was there waiting for FFXII since pretty much the beginning. And yeah, Matsuno originally planned to have Basch as the main character. I even saw some of his original artwork for Basch which looked pretty cool.

[Cloudane]

Pics plz :p :D

[Bolivar]

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2199/originalbaschartff6.jpg

Also, in another roundtable interview, Yoshida stated that a snow monster-type character was floated around as a possible lead. But I think it's apparent with the way that the game begins and plays out that it was intended to be Basch's story. I think Gabranth as the logo in the Amano-designed title also reflects that. It all starts with Basch leading up to the events at Nabudis, him going there to meet the archadians, then going again to save the King. He failed to protect Rasler, his King, and Dalmasca and the rest of the game is him making things right.

I also read that when square execs heard about Matsuno's original ideas, they began a focus group/public study to see what the prospects would be to have a rugged male lead, and they concluded that it wasn't a good idea and basically told him he had to stop it. I think all of this lead to his departure from Square, as very little and very vague information has been given by Square, no one has heard anything except rumors that he's working on a Wii RPG, and at times a DS RPG. In any case, i think the split was anything but amicable.

However, I think it's a miscalculation to regard FFXII as "the game that never was." I too had been following the game since early on, and I remember sometime before XI was released, they showed pics of Vaan and Ashe and the illustration of Archades that's in some pages of the manual. So I think alot of the original ideas that seemed to have been left out were only preliminary. Executive Producer Akitoshi Kawazu has stated that only 2 members were added to the original team (himself included) and that all of Matsuno's intentions were manifest in the final product.

[Serapy]

I absolutely love this game, it has a "true" feeling towards it, it's hard for me to describe. It has a nice re-play value, I've completed the game twice or third. I've began re-playing the game again since two days ago.

and "a lot of fans don't like game" is not true at all. Not everybody don't like each FF game, same thing applied to FF12. Just because you (Mr C) don't like it doesn't mean a lot of others don't like the game as well.

[Tabris]

Good point, Serapy. At lot of fans doesn't like VIII, X, II, IX, VII, I etc. And a lot of fans like those games. Same with XII.

[Nifleheim7]

I also read that when square execs heard about Matsuno's original ideas, they began a focus group/public study to see what the prospects would be to have a rugged male lead, and they concluded that it wasn't a good idea and basically told him he had to stop it. I think all of this lead to his departure from Square, as very little and very vague information has been given by Square, no one has heard anything except rumors that he's working on a Wii RPG, and at times a DS RPG. In any case, i think the split was anything but amicable.
It's really sad when a developer (especially someone with Matsuno's experience) isn't allowed to complete his vision to its fullest.I'm sure the game would have been much more coherent.

However, I think it's a miscalculation to regard FFXII as "the game that never was." I too had been following the game since early on, and I remember sometime before XI was released, they showed pics of Vaan and Ashe and the illustration of Archades that's in some pages of the manual. So I think alot of the original ideas that seemed to have been left out were only preliminary. Executive Producer Akitoshi Kawazu has stated that only 2 members were added to the original team (himself included) and that all of Matsuno's intentions were manifest in the final product.
Yeah i remember those pics too,but maybe Vaan and Ashe had different roles back then that Matsuno was forced to change...

[Sarc the Swordsman]

Personally I loved this game - I don't see why so many people hate it, but many gamers are just afraid of change. The battle system was interesting, and I was getting so bored of random battles. It's nice to actually choose what to fight and what not to fight. The music reminded me a lot of Vagrant Story...same composer, I think.

Love stories are stale. It's a silly reason to not like a game. >_>

[Roogle]

But I think it's apparent with the way that the game begins and plays out that it was intended to be Basch's story. I think Gabranth as the logo in the Amano-designed title also reflects that. It all starts with Basch leading up to the events at Nabudis, him going there to meet the archadians, then going again to save the King. He failed to protect Rasler, his King, and Dalmasca and the rest of the game is him making things right.

Interesting. I think that the game would have been much better with Basch as a lead character, and I think that it is unfortunate that we were forced to deal with Vaan, as I think he had a detrimental effect on the storyline.

It seems like one half of the party is very relevant to the story: Ashe, Basch, and Balthier have interesting storyline arcs and interactions, while Vaan, Penelo, and Fran — to an extent — are somewhat cast aside when looking at the bigger picture. This might be because they did not exist in the preliminary concepts for the game.

I like Fran and I think that she was an excellent example of the diversity and background of Ivalice, but Vaan and Penelo were nothing more than tagalongs, bringing nothing but a point-of-view of poverty with them.

[Cloudane]

Interesting indeed (thanks for the pic)

It's not the first time we've had a relatively pointless character as the lead. Tidus springs to mind here. I guess the "dumb/newbie" type of lead character is important, as they tend to ask the kind of questions you ask as a player.

[VorpalCyberWolf]

All this talk makes me remember when I put rubberbands over O and the shoulder buttons in FFVII to constantly run away from battles so I could reach 2222 battles run away from and use lucky 7s on myself with Chocobuckle. Persheesh, where were gambits then? (Take home point: I feel the gambit system would have been more widely accepted if it had been implemented before. To me, it just feels like a more solid version of the Auto-Haste, Auto-Potion, Auto-Item, Auto-Regen, Final Attack-Revive skills and combinations that you have been able to use in other games.)

I admit a couple of the characters didn't get as well developed as they should, but thats not as uncommon as some may think, some characters never get as much screentime as they deserve.

I enjoyed the story just as much as I enjoyed Final Fantasy Tactics, and I have to say I enjoy that game a lot. The fact that there were no random battled helped with that. I also liked the fact that it returns to the world of Ivalice, making for a better linked series than say, FFX-2 or Dirge of Cerberus...

I also agree that the music is fantastic, it's a wonderful score added to the resume of Hitoshi Sakimoto, I especially love the flare and stylizing he gave some of the Uematsu songs (Like Clash On The Big Bridge) he leaves the soul intact but the arrangement isvery effective.

[Roogle]

It's not the first time we've had a relatively pointless character as the lead. Tidus springs to mind here. I guess the "dumb/newbie" type of lead character is important, as they tend to ask the kind of questions you ask as a player.

I think that is a tempting trap for the story and character designers. It works better in Final Fantasy X than in Final Fantasy XII because Tidus interacted with the party more than Vaan interacted with the party; additionally, Tidus and Yuna became involved in a relationship, and Vaan and Ashe were nothing more than companions on the battlefield. I remember seeing various events in Final Fantasy XII that had Vaan, of all party members, in the sequence of events, yet he still felt like an outsider that shouldn't be there.

[Cloudane]

Yeah, that's true. I've already whinged that the characters never seemed to talk to each other or have that "happy little family" thing that the others tend to have :D

[Renatus]

1. Music

Answer: Sure, the music was weaker than Nobuo's. But I liked many other themes in it. Not up to Nobuo's high standard, but still decent enough.

2. Random battles

Answer: Random battles are less enjoyable to the battle system of FFXII IMO. Sure, they're fun as well, but the fluidity is just not the same. Im sure a lot of people will agree with me. FFXII's battle system is the best in any Final Fantasy.


4. Im not even gonna copy that :skull::skull::skull::skull: down.

Answer: There is something called intelligence. And if you follow a story carefully enough, you'll understand it. Maybe not completely first time, but if you replay it, more and more of the pieces fit. And, as I know all too well, the story does make perfect sense. Sure, the character developement is lacking, but what is really interesting is the politics. The individual wills of the key figures in Archadia, Rozarria and Dalmasca and how they clash. You can pick these up with subtle references without them being spelt out to you like in FFX. (Dont get me wrong, I love that game). Although I do wish there had been a few extra cutscenes just to add a few extra elements to the story. Anyway, I thought the story was good.
.

The story is pretty simple, and was a little disappointing.

[Renatus]

Oh god, they've taken away something that's been plaguing RPG's games since the SNES era and further back. Damn you square for trying to do something different! For taking a stale random battle turned based system and changing it into an exciting battle system. YOU HAVE DONE WRONG. >=(

If anyone points out anything wasn't correct in that post, possibly the "since the SNES era", I don't give a crap, randomly guessing.

The battle system is pretty lame, not exciting.

[Raebus]

I think its exciting, your opinion does not change what I think and never will.

[Roxxas]

Final Fantasy 12 is one of the best in the series and alot of the main flaws imo can be gotten around easy.

1. For music just take all the old final fantasy battle/boss themes/whatever throw it together and put it on loop. I personally didn't like the atomospheric music and this works for me.
2. The plot is actually amazingly deep however its not all shoved in your face like other final fantasies. Talk to every npc you can see and I mean EVERYONE. Alot of them have interesting stories about there lives or add to the plot.
3. Never open a single chest until you get a guide on all the chests in the game and a diamond armlet. God the chest system is terrible but this makes it better.
4. If you really need your love story go read some of the terrible fan fiction that seems to be oozing out of the internets all over the place. Sure they are terrible love stories but then again so were most final fantasy love stories and no one seems to complain so it should be all good.
5. Most fights are easy so for a challenge on boss fights I jacked the speed up to max and chose the option where the fighting keeps going even when you look through the menu and played with one hand. And no gambits either you pansy.
6. Uhh don't know what to say about the battle system complaints. I thought it was a huge improvement. I guess if you really want random battles so bad you can close your eyes and slam the analog stick with your head until you hear battle noises.

[gjoerulv]

Actually I think the music is good. No NU material though. For gaming music overall it got a pretty high standard. The English voice-acting where leagues beyond what FFX managed to perform (talking English version).

The story isn't typical FF story or any other game story for that matter. It's more like a documentary on what happened in that age. The only time i was really disappointed was when they suddenly pulled out that Bahamut sky-ship thing. I felt like that came from nowhere. That and that there perhaps where too few cut scenes compared to playtime. That there wasn't much love doesn't bother me one bit.

As for the battle system I think it's one of the best Square ever pulled. The only itchy part is that everyone can learn everything, and that for some reasons most of the key gambits took quite some time to obtain, which is really just annoying. The esper system wasn't any good either. But random treasures is perhaps the most annoying. If you're just breezing through the game you wouldn't care, but if you try to obtain everything it's a major pain in the ass.
All those things above are fixed in the International version. Damn I want to play that.

The thing 'bout magic not being as effective as it should be is somewhat true. But that goes for most FFs. :cool::D

[hhr1dluv]

I was one of those people who disliked FFXII. The first time I played it, I stopped when I first arrived at Eruyt Village because I felt no desire to continue. Yet, I gave the game another try...and I really love it. It might even be one of my favorites (although, I think I have to play ALL the FFs before I come up with opinions, my opinions keep changing dramatically as I play more of them).

Really, this game is AMAZINGLY deep for those who care to look. The bestiary and the NPCs (as others have said) provide a wealth of information about Ivalice. As for the lack of a love story, that's another thing that can be satisfied by talking to NPCs...:p I'll admit, you don't really see relationships growing in this game (unless you like Balthier/Ashe ::shrugs). Rather, many of the couples are already established before the game begins. At that point, you just kind of see what the NPCs say about the couples and you watch how the pairs interact with each other and that's cute enough for me. :D

Music-wise...well, I like the music. So, that's not a bother for me. Uematsu's scores, especially as the series progressed, were always filled with songs that I loved and songs that were forgettable. It's the same thing for me with the FFXII soundtrack.

Battle system-wise: this game has my favorite system.

Overall, as others have said, I believe the game's main flaw is in its pacing. But, I don't really think that's a big deal. Somehow, it feels less jarring to have loads of battles and side quests jammed in throughout the title than to have ALL the extra stuff stuffed in at the end (FFX).

[Wolf Kanno]

For the characters and their "non-conformity to being a big happy family" I feel its just silly to believe a party has to be close-knit and I found it quite amusing to watch the party have this "professional distance".

Basch is a soldier his duty is to protect Lady Ashe, not to be a big brother figure to Vaan and Penelo. Lady Ashe is of royal decent, she shouldn't even be consulting with a national traitor, two criminals and low-class orphans. Course our Sky Pirates are wanted criminals and have their own personal agenda's for being there. The Kids are tagging along cause lets be serious, if you had the choice between joining a ragtag group of adventureres to save a kingdom or stay home where you can eke out a living in the slums, which would you choose?

I think what many fans fail to see is that XII is steeped in a sense of realism and Ivalice is built around the social-political world of Europe in the Middle Ages. Yes the party shared an intimate adventure together but you need to understand they also have social constraints that they still abide by do to being raised in such an enviroment. Its made the most clearly in the ending to the game. Its not so simple but every party member did stake something from the experience if you look carefully.

Fran, Vaan, and Penelo exist as symbols so there role is important to the story. Vaan, exists as a realistic form of the "coming of age" stories. He starts the story by hoping to avenge his kingdom and despises the Archadians. By meeting the party and seeing the world, Vaan realizes that the world isn't as black and white as he first imagined. He grows and realizes that his original perspective is wrong and learns to have a more realistic bearing on the world. This pretty much occurs about a 1/4 of the way into the story.

Now here is where the story takes an interesting turn. Vaan doesn't have some grand "epiphany" that makes him capable of handling the burden of saving the world. Instead he falls into the background and remains still somewhat innocent. He continues to grow though not in grand leaps and bounds like most stories foolishly make you believe is possible. In the beginning of the story, Vaan is a foolish idealistic kid, at the end he's still an idealistic youth with foolish intentions at times but he's definetly wiser. He didn't mature into an adult like other protagonist you see and I respect Matsuno for taking such a realistic view of this.

Penelo is important cause of her relationship with Larsa. This relationship shows that the hope of reconciliation between Dalmasca and Archades is possible. There is a few pivotal exchanges between Basch and Lady Ashe that stress this point.

Fran, I feel could have been expanded on more but, she ties in more to the backstory of the Viera leaving the Wood to see the world. A symbol of the sacrifice needed sometime to achieve freedom. Her role is more important to the story if you talk with the NPCs (Omg, NPCs that actually further the plot beyond telling you where to go next?!:eek: What a concept...) concerning this plot thread. It has no resolution but then again, when does a change in cultular(sp?) values ever have an end in the real world?

[Elias_the_Belias]

i recently restarted ffX. in the first very battle i unterstood that it wasn't a ff game.FFXII is more realistic as a story (not an ancient evil power woke up to destroy the world and vannish all people and living beings). the world is much bigger (it will take you a lot of time to explore it entirely) the towns and people are better designed.i was walking with Tidus in Luca and i saw the difference(he was like running in slow motion). if you think fighting 1 monter is boring then run to gather 10 monsters (i don't think that is boring). who needs love??? it's very difficult to make a game intresting without love and a super powerfull ancient evil monster to destroy. FFXII is VERY intresting without any of those above. i love FFs. The first i played was FFVIII then FFX and now FFXII. i think FFXII is a step forward and i hope the next series will be in this style.The only think i miss from the previous series is the Card Mini-Game. it was fantastic. i hope i will see that again in the coming games with more cards. oh and more usefull espers (aeons, summons, guardian forces as you like). Espers are useless. the only moment you 'll need an esper is to open the door to giruvegan. lol. aeons in the other hand was the best way to get an advantage in a battle (powerfull , character don't take damage, beautiful ...).MUSIC: i didn't buy FFXII to listen to music. i bought it to play it. the music is a positive addition but i will not die if it's not good.I hope only for the best. FF for ever

[Roogle]

For the characters and their "non-conformity to being a big happy family" I feel its just silly to believe a party has to be close-knit and I found it quite amusing to watch the party have this "professional distance".

I agree. This type of interaction was a lot different than characters from the other games.

I thought that it was a refreshing change, but I think that it should have been expanded upon even if there was nothing to expand it. I hated climbing Pharos for dozens of floors with no interaction from the party members whatsoever, as it made me feel like they were characters in a game rather than characters in a story.

[Roxxas]

For the characters and their "non-conformity to being a big happy family" I feel its just silly to believe a party has to be close-knit and I found it quite amusing to watch the party have this "professional distance".

I agree. This type of interaction was a lot different than characters from the other games.

I thought that it was a refreshing change, but I think that it should have been expanded upon even if there was nothing to expand it. I hated climbing Pharos for dozens of floors with no interaction from the party members whatsoever, as it made me feel like they were characters in a game rather than characters in a story.

I kind of think the silence at Pharos was intended to enhance the the interactions when they DID come. The dramatic build up if you will. I know the whole time I was climbing the tower I was thinking omg omg when is something gonna happen then BAM plot exploding outta everywhere. It felt sort of fitting.

[Dr. Acula]

I agree with the "professional distance" thing, that makes a lot of sense. I still wish the characters interacted just a little more though, so as to expand that.

[Egami]

After finishing X for a second time a couple of weeks ago I decided to start FF XII again. When I first played the game in 2006 I had a 70+ hour file but lost the memory card before finishing the game. Discouraged I simply shelved the game and didn’t bother to start again until recently. I am playing it right now and I am at Giruvegan so far…I am having as much a blast as I had the first time around.

SPOILERS may lie ahead…

Music
The OP asks which songs are memorable from FFXII. I think that quite a few of the tracks are amazing and memorable. I have the soundtrack and the Esper Battle, Boss Battle, Loop Demo and Battle for Freedom are ones I have listened to regularly for more than a year. In fact, just as the first time I played it, almost every time that I start up the game now, I let it run the intro before loading just to hear the song. I love it. As I am writing this post, the theme from Tchita Uplands is stuck in my head, it is very catchy and so are many of the other songs such as the theme of the Mosphoran Highwaste, which is awesome too.

Overall I think the soundtrack is superb and complements the game rather nicely. Granted, not all tracks are memorable or even good, but such is the case for every other FF.

Ran<st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>m Battles
Some have complained about the lack of ran<st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>m battles but I think that this is one of the main things which make FF XII such an engrossing and enjoyable game. The battle system of FF XII is amazing and to my mind, the best thing to happen to the series. No more shaking screen and taking you out of the field into a “boxed” combat ring and then back again into the field after a transition, victory dance and dialogue box. Seriously, what fun is watching the same victory dance and listening to the same music every time you end a battle for over 40-60 hours? It gets tiresome after a while and is very time consuming. I find that it also detracts from the experience and makes one lose interest in exploring the area. This system is also very static; your characters as well as the enemies are fixed in the same position, effectively limiting your free<st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>m when it comes to battling enemies and limiting the possibilities of planning strategies to fight them.

I think that FF XII <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>es away with all the issues of the previous system by preserving all of its best elements and none of its flaws and also by adding some online RPG elements as well. Now exploring and fighting are seamless, you are as free to move around when you are fighting as you are when you are exploring. You can now see the enemies and decide to engage them or if the enemy is too strong, seek a different route or prepare yourself first. While fighting, the ability to move behind the enemy and pincer them is nice as it allows you to evade some of their attacks. Moving away from them a bit is also useful, for example, a monster that readies to cast Thundaga in the party leader will hit all allies in range but if you move the character away from your allies it won’t hit them.

The gambit system is worth gold in my opinion. By allowing you to set up your characters to perform specific tasks automatically, it allows <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName> away with the repetitiveness of the previous system and also makes your characters feel alive and gives you a sense that you truly are traveling with companions instead of a group of characters that <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>n’t <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName> anything until you input some command. It also <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>es away with the one at a time form of battle that was the form of the previous system, where only one character could act at a time, something which is very unrealistic and far less exciting than what is the case here.

Once you know an effective way of defeating the foes in the area, you can set up a gambit so that your characters <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName> it automatically. For a flying creature that is weak to ice you can set up your characters to automatically cast Blizzaga on it and it will save you the need to select 6 or even 8 times the same command targeting the same creature.

All this makes the task of going through an area to get to a certain location a lot of fun, despite the length of the different areas. It also invites you to explore the vast world of the game. I always like to complete the whole map before moving out to the place I am going to and it <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>esn’t feels boring but quite fun, at least to me.

This brings me to another point, just as the new battle system invites you to explore the world, so too the game lets you explore it. Compared to say, FF X, which is incredibly linear, so much that you are actually prevented from entering any other place until you get the airship, in FF XII you are told you need to go to a given area but you are mostly left on your own to get there. You can decide how to get to that area, via chocobos, airships, gate crystals or even by foot or you can stop for a while and decide to explore other unknown areas. The game <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>esn’t forces you to follow a rigid straight line but gives you the free<st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>m to move at your own peace. I think this is a very positive thing and quite refreshing as well.


Where is the love?
I <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>n’t see a problem with the lack of a central love story and think it was quite a refreshing and much needed change for the series. While there is no in your face love story in FF XII, some relationships such as the one between Ashe and her husband, Gabranth and Drace, and perhaps even Balthier and Fran while subtle an brief were well executed and believable.

This brings me to the characters. The first time I played the game when I bought it, the thing that stood out the most to me was the strong and marked personality that characters such as Balthier, Ashe and Basch have. From Balthier’s witty personality and intriguing background, Ashe’s struggle when it came to the power of the stone was rather touching, especially when she is asked about it and Bash’s loyalty and cool despite his troubled past, I enjoyed then and have enjoyed now every moment when they get some screen time. While Vaan and Penelo <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName> not take center stage, I like the way in which they grow up and mature as they explore the world, especially Vaan who gets more confident and determined and overall sounds more like a “sky pirate” everyday. Penelo is perhaps the one with the less exposure of the group but the bits when she takes the stage such as during her conversations with Larsa, while she is being held captive and her exchanges with Vaan at the beginning are memorable. Fran is also very good and always has something useful to say when she speaks. Her background of leaving the forest and her sisters behind yet coming back to meet them after 50 years was quite moving.

The NPCs have interesting and relevant things to say for a change. There is much you learn about the gameplay, locations and the story from them.

Story
While it is true that the pacing of the game, as far as it's story goes, is not it's strongest point, I do find the story of FF XII interesting and involving. While simple, the story is wide in scope and epic. The parties involved both good and bad (if such lines can really be drawn) are all interesting and are developed sufficiently to allow the player to know and understand them and their motivations. I liked in particular the internal conflict there was within the empire and the judges, how some wanted Vayne while others preferred Larsa and the struggle of their father to choose between his role and his sons. The state of the people who lived in Lowtown in Rabanastre and how the soldiers treated the merchants as seen in one of the opening scenes really puts you on the same page with Vaan, who wants to take back what is theirs from the empire and reclaim their free<st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>m and motivates you to <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName> so. The same goes for Ashe, who lost so much to the empire yet is torn between revenge and peace, what would one <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName> were one in her shoes? I think that when one looks at the story of FF XII through the viewpoint of each character, it is rather interesting and many sides of the same plot are revealed and it is when taking all those viewpoints together that the story reveals its epic nature. One cannot look at the story apart from the characters or vice versa.


Overall
As should be obvious by now, I like FF XII, no…I love it. With its exciting battle system, engrossing and vast world and memorable characters, it is easily the best FF I have played since FF VI and by the looks of it, it will end up rather close to the top of the list of my favorite RPGs. The only weakness I see in this game is that the flow of the story is a bit slow due to the large amount of exploring/fighting that one has to go between the different scenes. It could have been a bit more balanced in that regard, yet, I think that given how much fun it is to fight and explore and how involved one gets in developing and configuring the characters, that one can easily overlook this minor issue.


Egami

[Bolivar]

This must be revive old threads day (this is a good one though). After beating the game 3 times all I have to say is that any way you slice it, XII is a very high quality game. The problem is it just doesn't match the momentous releases that the past single player FF's have had, that certain X-Factor that kicks in whenever you play a new FF for the first time is missing.

[Egami]

Oh, apologies. I am new to the forum and never got to participate on this thread before and felt it was better to make my post in this thread instead of starting another one.

I think that the missing "X-factor" that you mention may have more to <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName> with the fact that the game is different from previous FFs. The ran<st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>m battle system (for example) has been part of the series since their beginning and FF XII discards it. The plot also has a different theme than previous installments. Things such as Summons are another area where the game differs from previous ones. In previous games such as FF X, summons were indispensable for battle, now they are not. Personally I welcome the change since it makes the game more challenging and the battles more involving. While in X you only needed to have your Aeons with their overdrives full to absolutely crush a particular boss, in XII that won’t <st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName> and you need to plan out a strategy to win the battle.

I would say that one may call FF XII an “unortho<st1:PersonName w:st="on">do</st1:PersonName>x” FF if we judge it by how well it carries the elements that have been part of the series from the start. But if we judge it by how well it pushes the series forward and onto the next level, I would call it a revolutionary FF.


Egami

[Dynast-Kid]

Kinda old thread. xD It's a goodie though. :D

Some of these posts made me angry, because FFXII is my favorite of the series. I don't feel like typing out a long post, but most fans didn't like the game because it was so different from the others.

You weren't emotionally attached or invested in the characters? Good, 'cause the story isn't neccessarily about them. This isn't the standard "group of allies fight some evil power to save the world", FFXII is "a group of allies set out for revenge against an aggressive empire, and end up helping to free humanity from the oppressive gods". And Dalmasca isn't necessarily good, Archadia isn't neccessarily evil; they're protagonistic and antagonistic, which is in no way the same thing. Every thing is all grey and open to interpretation and thought, and I guess some people just don't like to think too hard about the game? xD

Not every game in the series has to be a recycled version of the previous with a slightly altered battle system and new characters fitting the same archetype. Whether you like it or not, FFXII was a ground-breaking game. :bigsmile:

P.S. I love Wolf Kanno! He's so smart! xD

[Tigmafuzz]

If you're curious as to my opinions...

FFIX: 100/100
FFX = FFXII: 95/100
FFVII = 93/100
FFVIII = 89/100

I would give FFIX more if I could. Because the other four game combined aren't as good as it.


Vivisteiner your argument about ff9 being better then the other four combined is..............









Absolutely true I lift my hat to you fellow ff9 lover.

wow. i thought i was the only one.
anyway, xii was actually a really good game, mostly just about the whole hunting sidequest thing, but what really made it a final fantasy was, of course, the ADDICTION to playing it. there are some people with 2, possibly 3 hundred hours of gameplay (me personally=132 because i accidentally messed with my memory card and somehow got all the weapons in the game including belias' spear and some weapon with 250 attack that had no graphic and no icon, thus allowing me to do whatever the hell i wanted at near the beginning of the game) because of the desire to play a perfect game. it is impossible, of course, to have a "perfect" game on final fantasy due to conflicting points of view without using some sort of cheat device or at least a walkthrough and multiple FAQs on all aspects of gameplay, but just trying to do everything or get everything done half-assed at minimum is present in every final fantasy game. it is a recurring phenomenon that cannot be prevented no matter what; any final fantasy player knows, you simply cannot stop playing until you have accomplished EVERYTHING. srsly.

[Dr. Acula]

Every thing is all grey and open to interpretation and thought, and I guess some people just don't like to think too hard about the game? xD


Yeah, if people thought about FFXII as much as Serapy or Future Esthar think about FFVIII, people might like it more.

[Wolf Kanno]

Oh, apologies. I am new to the forum and never got to participate on this thread before and felt it was better to make my post in this thread instead of starting another one.

I think that the missing "X-factor" that you mention may have more to <st1:personname w:st="on">do</st1:personname> with the fact that the game is different from previous FFs. The ran<st1:personname w:st="on">do</st1:personname>m battle system (for example) has been part of the series since their beginning and FF XII discards it. The plot also has a different theme than previous installments. Things such as Summons are another area where the game differs from previous ones. In previous games such as FF X, summons were indispensable for battle, now they are not. Personally I welcome the change since it makes the game more challenging and the battles more involving. While in X you only needed to have your Aeons with their overdrives full to absolutely crush a particular boss, in XII that won’t <st1:personname w:st="on">do</st1:personname> and you need to plan out a strategy to win the battle.

I would say that one may call FF XII an “unortho<st1:personname w:st="on">do</st1:personname>x” FF if we judge it by how well it carries the elements that have been part of the series from the start. But if we judge it by how well it pushes the series forward and onto the next level, I would call it a revolutionary FF.


Egami

Don't worry, most of us feel this was a pretty good thread, and I would rather have someone resurrect the thread and add to it than start a new one... (long story...)

I agree with many points that XII is definetly unorthodox, as well as the changes being for the most part for the better. I only hope SE took notes on all the strong points of this game when they make the next few. Alot of FFs have introduced new systems and outlooks but XII is the first in a very long time that did stuff I want to see in all RPGs not just FF titles. :D

[Egami]

I only hope SE took notes on all the strong points of this game when they make the next few. Alot of FFs have introduced new systems and outlooks but XII is the first in a very long time that did stuff I want to see in all RPGs not just FF titles.

Me too. I hope that FF XIII carries over and builds upon the great things that FF XII introduced.

I finished the game on Friday and God...FF XII is an epic! Everything from the appearance of the Occuria at Giruvegan, to the climbing of the Pharos and the scene at the top of the tower, where all characters including Reddas, Gabranth and Dr. Cid come full circle when it comes to their roles, to the battle scene before entering the Bahamut and the scenes within it with the conflict between Larsa, Grabranth and Vayne was one hell of a ride. The ending was very well done and wrapped the story nicely, I was quite moved with the conversations between Basch and Gabranth and how Basch assumed his role on protecting Larsa and the part where Balthier and Fran stay in the Bahamut, his talk about being the leading man put a grin on my face, very nice, and it also showed a rather emotional side of Ashe, when she starts screaming "Balthier!" which shows that despite of keeping the "royal" distance between her and the rest of the party she still felt for them. Well, I am rambling now but being excited I guess that is to be expected, but still, mere words do not make justice to this, seeing is believing as they say.

All in all, as I said previously, this is the best FF I have played since VI and it may well topple that game. Despite finishing the game already, I am still playing with the same motivation that I had before and am going now after all the hunts and espers. It is that much fun. I don't remember having done that with any previous FF.

My all time favorite RPGs list needs an update. :D


Egami

[Crizpy]

Am I the only one who hates not having a proper world map to WALK on?
Find secret stuff on, travel from city to city on an airplane, digg up treasures with chocobos, the world map has such a huge potential, why did they have to remove it?
Because it would be obsolete with todays graphics or something?

Ontopic: I agree. FFXII was for me the biggest letdown ever. I forced myself to finish it, sad part is that nobody but me cared, and I was left with nothing.

:<

[Egami]

Am I the only one who hates not having a proper world map to WALK on?
Find secret stuff on, travel from city to city on an airplane, digg up treasures with chocobos, the world map has such a huge potential, why did they have to remove it?
Because it would be obsolete with todays graphics or something?

Well, the world map as it was used in the previous FFs was not used in FF X either. The world map is there, the only difference is one of scale. While in previous games when you went out of the town things assumed a different scale, where your character became the size of the town, in FF X and XII things are kept in proportion. In FF XII I felt that the world map made exploring a much more enjoyable experience, with all the hills, rock formations, weather, etc you felt that you were really in there. The world map you access in the menu with all the detailed maps for all the areas was very well done. I also liked that while you were viewing the map of an area, you could select the blue arrows to see the map of some other area.

In FF XII you can still find secret stuff on the different areas, there are plenty of them. You can travel from city to city on airships, foot, chocobos or crystals. I did miss the chocobo minigames (unless there is one and I have yet to find it), yet, there are secret places that can only be accessed by using chocobos.

[Wolf Kanno]

Am I the only one who hates not having a proper world map to WALK on?
Find secret stuff on, travel from city to city on an airplane, digg up treasures with chocobos, the world map has such a huge potential, why did they have to remove it?
Because it would be obsolete with todays graphics or something?

Ontopic: I agree. FFXII was for me the biggest letdown ever. I forced myself to finish it, sad part is that nobody but me cared, and I was left with nothing.

:<

To be honest, I felt XII brought back true exploration in RPGs that had been seriously lacking. Considering a good third of the world is optional I would say XII kinda merges the best parts of past game world maps with the change into realistic maps that FFX brought. Its not perfect but what is? Half of IXs world was a void and exploring VIIIs lacked any real impact since the story chooses not to go into details that might interest people. :mad:

If you elaborate on what else disappointed you about XII we can have a nice civil discussion about it if you like? ;)

[Raebus]

It wasn't like the other FF's = Wah'ing over it. Simple as.



I liked it by the way, it was different which is what made it good.

[Crizpy]

It wasn't like the other FF's = Wah'ing over it. Simple as.



I liked it by the way, it was different which is what made it good.

Say whatever you want man, but when I dont find the game fun, it doesnt really matter what the reason is.

And if a game that is different, is what makes it good..then yeah..How can you possibly make a bad game.

[sir helix]

great game in many ways, but just doesn't cut as a final fantsy title in my eyes. i still cant vring my self to play it threw to the end

[Saber]

Final Fantasy 1 - 10-2 all had random battles the way they did. Thats a lot of game titles. So to turn that into something else is just blasphemy to all the people who played Final Fantasy cause of its traditions, like summons, creatures, magic like enemy skill, and more then I want to list. Final Fantasy 12 should have been called something like Final Fantasy Tactics two. Then people that loved 12 or tactics could sit around a tube and play them together. And what would really been cool to them is that the new tactics games could have been their little go getter. You don't make a game in a series too different from the others because it ruins it for the fans.

[Raebus]

Drat! They changed the game formula which imo was getting old! TIE THEM UP AND BURN THEM FOR SUCH A CRIME!

[Crizpy]

I don't understand why disliking the game because its not the same as it used to, isnt a legitimate reason.

If I go buy starcraft 2, and I find out its an FPS rather than an RTS, im supposed to just say "hey, its different, and thats good"?

I havent been around here for long, but I know there are two scenarios in which you can act like a complete douche to another poster, that is if 1) He thinks the R=U theory might be correct 2) He doesnt like final fantasy changing.

[Karellen]

I don't think removing random encounters, adding party AI and adding the element of positioning into battle strategies is really anywhere near as drastic a change as a game completely switching genre. These are all modifications that were made to Western RPGs way back in the early 90s. Why Japanese RPG fans don't seem to like them is beyond me.

As a side note, this is from someone who is extremely disapointed in the direction Bethesda has taken Fallout 3. If the changes FFXII made to its established formula were THAT significant then I might understand but for the most part FFXII is just a slightly less archaic take on the battle system the series has had since FFIV.

[Skyblade]

Drat! They changed the game formula which imo was getting old! TIE THEM UP AND BURN THEM FOR SUCH A CRIME!

Just because you thought it was getting old doesn't mean that everyone else shares that opinion. Quit whining and try to make a valid point.


I don't think removing random encounters, adding party AI and adding the element of positioning into battle strategies is really anywhere near as drastic a change as a game completely switching genre. These are all modifications that were made to Western RPGs way back in the early 90s. Why Japanese RPG fans don't seem to like them is beyond me.

Positioning has very little effect on battle in this game. It affects AoE attacks, but even that is under-utilized since there is no way to direct your characters to go to certain places or even to stay where they are.

[Karellen]

For the record, I wasn't making a statement on the quality of said implementation. By 'positioning' I mostly meant that you can now move your characters around. The only thing I really used positioning for was to ensure I didn't agro too many enemies.

[Skyblade]

For the record, I wasn't making a statement on the quality of said implementation. By 'positioning' I mostly meant that you can now move your characters around. The only thing I really used positioning for was to ensure I didn't agro too many enemies.

Sorry if I misquoted you there then. But that was an example of one of my most annoying things about the game. A lot of the changes (such as the adding of positioning) were not that well executed.

[Roto13]

I may never play an RPG with random battles again. There's no advantage to them at all.

[demondude]

Final fantasy 12 was innovative, and it still contained lots of final fantasy staples! (Espers, chocobos etc)

[Dreddz]

FFXII lacked a lot of what made previous games great but then made up for it by the gameplay. I appreciate Square for doing something different and put my faith back into the company.

People who bitch piss me off because its not encouraging developers to go beyond the standard RPG formula.

[Crizpy]

So you want people to give positive feedback regardless of what they actually think of the game?

[Dreddz]

So you want people to give positive feedback regardless of what they actually think of the game?
They should at least be thankful that Square didn't go back to turn based combat. I'm actually with most people when criticizing everything else.

Square should bring the story back to the characters and bring a better composer to work on their Final Fantasy games but should keep on trying to innovate the RPG genre.

[Skyblade]

So you want people to give positive feedback regardless of what they actually think of the game?
They should at least be thankful that Square didn't go back to turn based combat. I'm actually with most people when criticizing everything else.

Square should bring the story back to the characters and bring a better composer to work on their Final Fantasy games but should keep on trying to innovate the RPG genre.

While I never had a problem with turn based combat, I am very unhappy with the real-time combat in XII. I won't mind if they use real-time combat in all future Final Fantasy games, as long as they fix the problems that XII's system has.

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't understand why disliking the game because its not the same as it used to, isnt a legitimate reason.

If I go buy starcraft 2, and I find out its an FPS rather than an RTS, im supposed to just say "hey, its different, and thats good"?

I havent been around here for long, but I know there are two scenarios in which you can act like a complete douche to another poster, that is if 1) He thinks the R=U theory might be correct 2) He doesnt like final fantasy changing.

The problem with the argument about FF changing is that its always changing. No game in the series is exactly alike and all bring countless changes that make each special to their fans. FF has always been about change, its the only constant in the series. I mean it took ten games for SE to finally make a direct sequel to a game in the series and even then it was radically different from its counterpart.

You would have to define what you feel the core elements of FF are. Even then, due to its changing nature, you won't find many who will agree cause we all have a different opinion of what constitutes as "core elements" in the series.

[Egami]

Final Fantasy 1 - 10-2 all had random battles the way they did. Thats a lot of game titles. So to turn that into something else is just blasphemy to all the people who played Final Fantasy cause of its traditions, like summons, creatures, magic like enemy skill, and more then I want to list.

Final Fantasy 1 - 6 were all on 2D graphics, that's a lot of game titles. So, to turn that into something else (3D graphics) is just blasphemy to all the people who played Final Fantasy.

Just because something has been part of the series for a long time, it does not means that it is the best thing for the series. The random battle system is good, I do like it, but I did not miss it while playing XII. The battle system introduced by XII simply runs circles around it and it is a change for the better of the series. I went into some detail about it and it's advantages in an earlier post.

Final Fantasy, at least to me, has always been about innovation, braking new ground, setting new trends, etc. The random battle system has run it's course already, it was good for a while, but there are better options available and I do feel that the series was starting to fall behind in that department in the last couple of installments.

[Egami]

...as long as they fix the problems that XII's system has.

Which problems do you believe it has?

[champagne supernova]

I will agree that random battles were probably getting a bit old. But XII still utilizes the ATB battle system. If you look at the battle system (and exclude the gambits of course), the battle system is very similar to the one in VII when in 'Active' mode.

The implementation of the system was also not perfect. I think the gambits were useful, as long as they weren't overused (which some people did, and then complained that the game played itself). But, I also don't believe gambits should be the way forward for the series. A game should be fun, not involve programming moves in (which basically is what gambits are).

My biggest gripe with the battle system was the spell casting. First, I'd have to wait for my ATB bar to fill up. Then I'd have to wait while the spell bar would fill up. Then, I'd have to wait some more while a boss would do a million things before it would cast. But, an item would be used immediately.

The License Board is in my opinion the Sphere Grid v0.5. You still level up normally, but you get to basically move your character in any path from the start of the game. Vaan starts off as a thief, but within a few hours, he can become a spell-casting monk. And Fran starts off with a bow, but from the go, she can become a knight in shining armour.

Agreeably, at the end of X, many abilitites started to merge. But, Yuna played a white mage through most of the game for me, and Lulu a black mage, etc. I couldn't decide at the beginning of the game that Wakka should be a blue mage, and Auron a healer. Also, the license board was so easy to complete, unlike the Sphere Grid. To get a player to have every single ability in X would take forever. Not so in XII.

IMO, the best modern FF battle system was in X. It was a lot more strategic than the one's before, the underlying leveling mechanics required thought (unless one used the Tonberry for massive levelling), and it was fun. I'd have preferred it if they had managed to make it non-random battles, but I still prefer it to XII.

But I don't dislike because of the battle system. I disliked it because the story was unfocused and the characters were uninteresting. When I walk through the entire Sandsea without the story moving forward at all, I am worried. Or when I walk from Mt Bur Omisace to Archades (or whatever the capital is), and there is one piece of dialogue the entire way, I am worried. Both of those "walks" would take most gamers an hour or two. Can you imagine having to wait two hours for the story to move forward in any other Final Fantasy, unless you were delibarately messing about?

I felt that XII didn't have enough, storywise, for it to be compared with any other game in the series. Even X-2. I didn't care much for X-2's story (but who can say they cared much for XII's story), but at least there were plenty of characters to care about, who did speak more than twice (Penelo), and who developed.

[Dr. Acula]

I think that FF changing is a good thing. It's nice to not get into a battle every five seconds for a change. Squeenix was just experimenting with new gameplay styles to see how the fans would react before deciding what to do for the next game.

One thing bugs me, however. Just like champagne supernova said, sometimes there would be hours at a time before the story progressed. Then, by the time you got to wherever you were meant to be going, you'd forget why you were there in the first place. But I still think FFXII was a step in the right direction.

[Formalhaut]

Id have to agree with Dr Acula, Oft Id find myself heading to, say Jahara and totally forgetting why I need to go here. It just goes to show How weak and feeble the storyline was.

However, I did think the battle system was great, Its more realistic and for people saying that the monsters was small, well they had to to fit them all in one area. You can't have hulking great monsters 5 times the size of a person in an area the size of a Baseball field.

The music was a bit naff, but it wasn't composed by the great one (You know who he is)

All in all, some aspects are rubbish compared to past games, but it did introduce us new elements need to make the series become fresher and newer.

[Cloudane]

I noticed that too. And there lies one of the interesting problems - they turned it into like an MMORPG, too much so. Whilst they got rid of random battles, which can work out great (see Chrono Trigger) they still managed to put far too much emphasis on wading through tons and tons of monsters (in extremely bland zones) between fragments of the story.

I prefer fewer but more challenging battles to hacking through seas of monsters. The thing is, for a battle to be challenging it can either require thought, or levels. Levelling up just means wading through easier monsters until the hard ones become easy, so it's all much the same thing. Gambits added some thinking to it, thankfully, but IMO the best thought-based challenges (which is what I prefer) are achieved with turn based combat.

What you're wading through also makes a difference. I thought the monster zones in FFXII were mostly boring as hell, just variations of the same 'maze' theme with a few plains thrown in. Contrast with FFX: there were far too many random battles (every few damn steps!) but every location you went through had its own charm and character. (MMOs are guilty of this too - EQ1 had the 'all zones are special and unique and someone must've put a lot of thought and love into each one' feel whilst EQ2 had the 'bland cookie-cutter zones' feel)

[Egami]

I too felt that the pacing of the game, as far as it's story goes, is not its strongest point. That is very much it's weakness, the flow of the story is bogged down by the large amount of exploring/fighting that one has to do between the different scenes. It is not that the story is weak or uninteresting; it is that it is spread too thin. The game could have been a bit more balanced in that regard. When compared to the pacing of other FFs like VII and X, the pacing of this game feels quite slow and as a consequence, as others have already pointed out, people tend to forget why they are going to wherever it is they are headed.

As far as the locations go, I think that what happens in XII is not that it lacks interesting locations, of these there are many: The Feywood, Giruvegan, The Pharos, Eruyt, Bur-Omisace, Sochen Cave Palace, The Stilshrine of Miram, etc. What happens is that just like the story, they are spread too thin and you must first go through a lot of areas like beaches, forests and wastelands, which don’t have much of a distinctive feature before you get to them. As far as the different cities goes, I found these to be quite interesting and lively, begging you to explore and interact with everything around you. The floating city of Bhujerba in particular reminded me of Zeal’s Palace in Chrono Trigger.

[Cloudane]

I suppose if you think of the forests and wastelands and such as the "world map" of the old days it's not so bad.

[Xalioniaf]

You know what I hated about XII (and to some extent, X)?
No Chocobo Breeding.
One of the best sidequests from the PS1 games, and they felt the need to take them out and replace them with chocobo rentals. Not cool.

[Egami]

Yes, XII simply had no chocobo mini-games, at last X had a couple, such as the race with the champion chocobo in Remien Temple.

[Raebus]

Urgh, I hated the chocobo breeding mini games.

[Cloudane]

I liked the chocobo stuff in VII (the best), XI and X. Although VIII's was rubbish (go figure!)

[Formalhaut]

Yes I liked choco breeding. Infuriating sometimes I admit but It was fun finally getting the gold.

Im agreeing with cloudane, every map was the same old same old it never really excited me, oh god Giza plains was the worst, there was no feel or atmosphere, no in past FF games like in X every object and the scenery was unique, every waterfall and ruin had its own vibe to it.

I felt like this as a test the water game, the developers thought "hmm lets try a open battle system when you aren't constantly breaking out of the environment"

They focused solely on that to see if the fans would like the new change to the game. And then left everything else to the last minute. Thats what I felt.

[Hyperion4444]

While I agree to the above start, it's not the only reason why I didn't liked it.
Where were the summons, GF, Aeons, Espers?
The old ones were named after the ships.
And the new ones you needed to find them out by yourself and none were really familiar besides Belias and Maetheus .

So lack of that didn't helped.
It's sad really because some of the character were well drawn and had a fantastic beautiful world, but were completly wasted potential on some more-than-irrelevant story (like the fact that there theifs and pirates) and the pointless final boss.
If it would have had been done by another team and added traditional RPG and Final Fantasy Elements, it would have had been avoided.

Possibility that if you confronted a Esper here is simply because you got lost somewhere and ended up there.
And the action here was bassically non-existing since the game constently pause itself when pressing X, giving you time to plan the next couple of moves and it just stalls somewhere down the line.

[Xalioniaf]

Possibility that if you confronted a Esper here is simply because you got lost somewhere and ended up there.
And the action here was bassically non-existing since the game constently pause itself when pressing X, giving you time to plan the next couple of moves and it just stalls somewhere down the line.
Only pansies played in Wait.

[Wolf Kanno]

The implementation of the system was also not perfect. I think the gambits were useful, as long as they weren't overused (which some people did, and then complained that the game played itself). But, I also don't believe gambits should be the way forward for the series. A game should be fun, not involve programming moves in (which basically is what gambits are).

I agree and disagree, though I feel this comes down to personal taste so arguing this is kind of a moot point. I agree that the system requires a balance approach, and I also agree it shouldn't be the permanent way to go for the franchise. I felt it was an experiment that for the most part went well, and I wouldn't mind seeing the system as a support system in future titles such as programming an auto attack strategy when you're blasting through normal monsters on your way to the boss. You could even have system that allows you to micro-manage minor affects like buffing spells or last minute healing; while normal attacks and magic are still left in the players hands.

I feel the system has many applications, and to be honest I enjoyed planning strategies ahead of time and seeing how they work. Like many RPG battle systems, I felt XII's only really shined during boss battles. Granted for me, it made wading through minor monsters easier, especially since I haven't played an RPG in years where normal monsters required more strategy than hitting X a bunch of times :rolleyes2. For that, I guess I can't fault the system for taking the guess work out of normal monster encounters. Yet I would argue that the system deserved better and normal encounters should have required thought but I've been making this arguments since VI came out.


The License Board is in my opinion the Sphere Grid v0.5. You still level up normally, but you get to basically move your character in any path from the start of the game. Vaan starts off as a thief, but within a few hours, he can become a spell-casting monk. And Fran starts off with a bow, but from the go, she can become a knight in shining armor.

I always felt it was a broken down version of V's system, while Sphere Grid was a terribly broken down version of IV's system with minor class blending at the end of the game. ;)


Agreeably, at the end of X, many abilitites started to merge. But, Yuna played a white mage through most of the game for me, and Lulu a black mage, etc. I couldn't decide at the beginning of the game that Wakka should be a blue mage, and Auron a healer. Also, the license board was so easy to complete, unlike the Sphere Grid. To get a player to have every single ability in X would take forever. Not so in XII.

I prefer the License board for the exact reason you stated, I liked figuring out who should do what but then, I've always been a fan of the Job Class system so having the ability to control what every characters role in my party was fun. I knew going into the game I would have to figure out what everyone did. I personally liked it but we all have different tastes. For instance, I hate X's system cause most of your party was stuck in their respected roles and customization only occurred at the end of the game when it wasn't really necessary for finishing the story. I always felt Sphere Grid only gave the player the illusion of control and customization, but that is just my opinion.


IMO, the best modern FF battle system was in X. It was a lot more strategic than the one's before, the underlying leveling mechanics required thought (unless one used the Tonberry for massive leveling), and it was fun. I'd have preferred it if they had managed to make it non-random battles, but I still prefer it to XII.

I definetly disagree, X suffered from such terribly nerfed difficulty that strategy seemed non-existent. Having each player able to practically 1 hit kill specific monsters made random encounters tedious, especially if you tried to get everyone a turn so they all get exp. The game offered a good system but poor design choices and a nerfed difficulty makes most of its strengths irrelevant for me. The game was terribly easy, probably the easiest in the series.


But I don't dislike because of the battle system. I disliked it because the story was unfocused and the characters were uninteresting. When I walk through the entire Sandsea without the story moving forward at all, I am worried. Or when I walk from Mt Bur Omisace to Archades (or whatever the capital is), and there is one piece of dialogue the entire way, I am worried. Both of those "walks" would take most gamers an hour or two. Can you imagine having to wait two hours for the story to move forward in any other Final Fantasy, unless you were deliberately messing about?

I agree and disagree once again. While I agree that the main fault with the story was due to pacing issues like you mentioned. I found the story interesting (I love politics) and the cast far more interesting than its predecessors. Next to VI, I've never played an FF where I can honestly say I like the whole cast and their relationships.

Another thing I would like to point out and I really wish I didn't have to bring this game up again but its my poster child for everything wrong in an FF and that's FFX. I actually, enjoyed not tripping over cutscenes every five minutes. XII lets you play it while X is so in-love with its lame and unoriginal story that it refuses to let you play. In XII, though the cutscenes are few and far between, they were at least important and didn't involve pointless cutscenes either trying to convince you the party is deep or giving you the same piece of info over and over again. X's story and pacing treats the player like they are retarded and suffering from terrible bouts of ADHD.



Yes I liked choco breeding. Infuriating sometimes I admit but It was fun finally getting the gold.

I like Chocobo Breeding as well, but I can't say I care about the game lacking a Chocobo mini-game. VII and IX had fun ones but VIII, X, and X-2 were just terrible. I don't really care for Chocobo's, I prefer moogles. Where was my Mognet minigame? ;)


Im agreeing with cloudane, every map was the same old same old it never really excited me, oh god Giza plains was the worst, there was no feel or atmosphere, no in past FF games like in X every object and the scenery was unique, every waterfall and ruin had its own vibe to it.

I liked XII's world, it was more realistic and the open environments actually stressed exploration which had been seriously lacking in the series. I felt the world design was perfect and allowed the player to not only understand the scope of the world. But make it feel more real despite some of the places being supernatural. Granted, I could have done without the Crystal dungeon but overall I felt the enviroments were top notch and blew previous FF worlds out of the water in terms of depth and beauty. :love:



While I agree to the above start, it's not the only reason why I didn't liked it.
Where were the summons, GF, Aeons, Espers?
The old ones were named after the ships.
And the new ones you needed to find them out by yourself and none were really familiar besides Belias and Maetheus.

This is where I felt XII really did throw an experimental curve ball at the fanbase. Course my opinion is a bit bias considering FFT is my favorite FF and I've always felt summons were overrated and generally useless. I probably used summons more in XII than in previous installments except for IV. I can't say not seeing Ifrit or Shiva bothered me, while the opportunity to use Belias and Zeromus excited me more since they both kicked my ass in the past.


So lack of that didn't helped.
It's sad really because some of the character were well drawn and had a fantastic beautiful world, but were completly wasted potential on some more-than-irrelevant story (like the fact that there theifs and pirates) and the pointless final boss.
If it would have had been done by another team and added traditional RPG and Final Fantasy Elements, it would have had been avoided.

I felt the story touched on the characters fairly well. Vaan is more of a street urchin than a master thief. Pickpockets are pretty boring (unless they are Lone Wolf the Pickpocket :cool:) I felt the plot was quite deep. Focusing on kingdoms clashing and one person's internal struggle to decide whether to save her kingdom or get revenge. I feel the human element was much better represented. Fran may have been a bit of a miss but I always felt its odd few RPGs ever further the plot through NPC's like XII did.


Possibility that if you confronted a Esper here is simply because you got lost somewhere and ended up there.
And the action here was bassically non-existing since the game constantly pause itself when pressing X, giving you time to plan the next couple of moves and it just stalls somewhere down the line.

I actually enjoyed looking for the summons like you had to in old-school FFs. As for the battles, did you play in Wait mode? I don't remember that ever happening to me. Hell, I needed my Gambits just keep up half the time with the enemies.

[champagne supernova]

I wasn't bemoaning the lack of cutscenes, I was bemoaning the lack of dialogue between main characters (not the NPCs though, that was good). Honestly, in your next playthrough, count how many lines of dialogue there is between Mt. Bur Omisace and Archades.

I'll spare you the trouble. The only meaningful dialogue is as you enter the Phon Coast. And what about the Sandsea (Boredomsea)?

That is truly irritating. By the time I got to Archades, I had completely forgotten the awesome scenes at Mt Bur-Omisace. And that is another issue I have with the game. There are only three moments that make you go WOW! The first is the game's opening, the second is the events at Mt. Bur-Omisace (this includes the events simultaneously occuring in Archades) and the final one, the boss battle at the top of the Pharos. When I play a FF, I want to be WOWED! I want to be amazed. And with XII, I felt that it was good, but not excellent.

[Wolf Kanno]

I wasn't bemoaning the lack of cutscenes, I was bemoaning the lack of dialogue between main characters (not the NPCs though, that was good). Honestly, in your next playthrough, count how many lines of dialogue there is between Mt. Bur Omisace and Archades.

I'll spare you the trouble. The only meaningful dialogue is as you enter the Phon Coast. And what about the Sandsea (Boredomsea)?

That is truly irritating. By the time I got to Archades, I had completely forgotten the awesome scenes at Mt Bur-Omisace. And that is another issue I have with the game. There are only three moments that make you go WOW! The first is the game's opening, the second is the events at Mt. Bur-Omisace (this includes the events simultaneously occuring in Archades) and the final one, the boss battle at the top of the Pharos. When I play a FF, I want to be WOWED! I want to be amazed. And with XII, I felt that it was good, but not excellent.

Different taste I feel. I don't see the point in senseless dialogue it annoyed me in X when I couldn't walk a couple of feet at Mt. Gagazat without tripping over a pointless dialogue scene that kept telling you the same thing over and over again. It broke up the flow of the plot and the game for me.

XII wowed me, if not just its story and characters but also its world design and battle system. :cool:

[Shadowdeathrose]

2. Random Battles. If it ain't broke, don't replace it.

Sure. They can get annoying. They can get tedious. But it's what makes Final Fantasy gameplay, Final Fantasy gameplay. This new method of killing monsters really arrogated me. The majority of the time you'd be fighting 1 monster at a time. Boring. And some of the monsters are just pathetic. I remember when I first played FFX, my first FF, I got to the calm lands. I ventured west before saving and came across a mighty Malboro. It was the weakest of all Malboro species yet it was still 2-3 times bigger then my characters. In FFXII, the Malboros are pathetic. They're roughly as tall as Vaan and just die so easily. Many other monsters had this effect too. And where are Cactuars and Toberries?



I don't agree with that, one of the BEST things final fantasy has is it's ability to change.... the no random battles was one of these changes, and it worked for FF12! - it may not have been better than the other FFs but, lets face it... if we have the same things in every FF it will become boring! don't fualt the developers for actually having the guts to try something new

[Cloudane]

I've just started playing Lost Odyssey. Whilst I can't attest to the long term storyline yet, my initial impressions are that it's everything FFXII should've been.

Those who played FFXII and found themselves missing the random battles, the deeply involving and emotional storytelling of Sakaguchi and the awesome music of Uematsu would do well to give it a shot.

It's surprising S-E haven't turned around and sued their former employees or something, as it's basically a carbon copy of Final Fantasy, complete with near-identical battle fanfare =P

[Vivisteiner]

^lol that would be so funny. SE would be suing people who created the stuff that SE were suing them for copying them.

[Shadowdeathrose]

they were actually given permission to do that game that way.... - hence the "from the creators of final fantasy" crap

[Hyperion4444]

I don't like random battles.
I don't like hack&slash battles of FFXII since there's no battle music really going on because battles ends too fast.
I like RPG you touch the monster and engage battle against. Any means of selecting your fights while having battle music.

The only Victory Stance of the FFXII characters were when they defeated bosses.

[Cloudane]

they were actually given permission to do that game that way.... - hence the "from the creators of final fantasy" crap

Aye, thought as much. I don't think they'd have gotten away with it without such permission :) Weird as it may be, even though Sakaguchi created Final Fantasy, the rights belong to the company that you work for when creating material under an employment contract. So without permission, they probably could have gone after them.

[gjoerulv]

I've just started playing Lost Odyssey. Whilst I can't attest to the long term storyline yet, my initial impressions are that it's everything FFXII should've been.

Why have I never heard of this game! I checked it out and now I must have it. I haven't yerned for a game like this in ages!

[Roto13]

It boggles the mind that there are still people who think random battles are a good thing in any way, shape, or form, and it's sad that there are so many people who think random battles = turn based battles for some reason. I liked Final Fantasy XII's battle system, and I like Final Fantasy X's battle system, but one thing neither of those games should have is random battles. In fact, no game should ever have random battles ever again.

[Serapy]

Why not? I like random battles for a reason; it helps me to level faster.

[Roto13]

No it doesn't.

[Heath]

I'd actually say it probably takes longer. Battles were much shorter in FFXII. Or at least I found them to be shorter.

[Serapy]

No it doesn't.

Care to elaborate? I leveled in the henne mines and it was pretty fast as it certainly has helped me through the leveling times. Without random battles, I will level slower. Unless I misinterpreted the meaning of 'Random Battles'.

[Roto13]

And how annoying would it be if every area had wave after wave after wave of enemies in it, never stopping unless you run away, and every time you got into a fight it would load up a whole new battle screen? Those aren't what I'm talking about (or anyone else, for that matter) when I say random battles. Random battles are when every time you take a step an invisible randomizer decides whether you'll be in a fight or not.

[Serapy]

Oh, when I wiped a number of areas, I'll go back and save. After that, I just exited and loaded the game save, there, the spawns in such areas will automatically reset. At least, I think that's faster than walking around and waiting for the monsters to spawn.

[Roto13]

Walking around and waiting for monsters to spawn is exactly what grinding with a random battle system is. :P

[Spatvark]

An area will respawn after you've travelled three areas away from it, I believe; it's referred to as zoning. The trick is, to find a looping path through four or more areas, and just keep moving in an endless cycle. You should never run out of enemies to kill that way.

[Serapy]

Oh, I see, sorry.


An area will respawn after you've travelled three areas away from it, I believe; it's referred to as zoning. The trick is, to find a looping path through four or more areas, and just keep moving in an endless cycle. You should never run out of enemies to kill that way.

Hm, I've tried that method but if I do that, I'll find sightly fewer enemies. But if I load the game save instead, I've seen a bigger number of enemies. o.O

[Cloudane]

If you exit a zone and return, you get a semi-respawn.
If you exit to 2 zones away and return, you get a full respawn.

I used that quite extensively in the snowy area just past the jungle, as I found that the skeletons gave decent EXP and loot especially if you chain them. Of course, this means you should never hit a save point.

MMORPG style battles are cool, but Final Fantasy should be traditional turn-based battle screen stuff IMO. Otherwise it just ain't Final Fantasy (hence people didn't think much of it). It's like if our admin friends were to replace this messageboard with a video conference - it'd be more advanced, but totally missing the point.

But hey, Final Fantasy isn't itself any more, as the people who made it shine now work for Mistwalker.

[Roto13]

I don't mind turn-based battles. I think Final Fantasy X had a fantastic battle system. It's just the system to actually get into those battles should never, ever, ever return in any game ever. :P

[Wolf Kanno]

I would love to see a retooled version of XII's ADB system return in future installments but I would like to see changes to pacing and animation. My only beef with the MMO elements of the game have to do with farming materials to make the weapons. Beyond that, I can't say I really missed Turn Base combat.

Depending on how XIII utilizes the shift from in-game to battle. We may see turn base again if they can get the game to have seamless transition from exploring to battle a la Chrono Trigger style. I think then it might be safe to say Turn Base has a future unless SE experiments with other games styles like Action RPGs or even a card game based system.

[hhr1dluv]

But hey, Final Fantasy isn't itself any more, as the people who made it shine now work for Mistwalker.

I initially thought that Mistwalker would be great for the reason that you suggest above. However, as far as I've seen, both Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey have not performed as well as any of the main line Final Fantasies. In fact, wasn't Blue Dragon a critical let down?

I don't know, I haven't played any Mistwalker games (my dad hoards the Xbox). But, I usually agree with the average critical consensus about games.

[Wolf Kanno]

But hey, Final Fantasy isn't itself any more, as the people who made it shine now work for Mistwalker.

I initially thought that Mistwalker would be great for the reason that you suggest above. However, as far as I've seen, both Blue Dragon and Lost Odyssey have not performed as well as any of the main line Final Fantasies. In fact, wasn't Blue Dragon a critical let down?

I don't know, I haven't played any Mistwalker games (my dad hoards the Xbox). But, I usually agree with the average critical consensus about games.

Depends on who you talk to. Blue Dragon got good reviews, but was chastised for not being an innovative phenomenon that put the JRPG genre on its head. Most people I've talked to say its a pretty good game but it definetly has an old school feel to it.

Lost Odyssey also got pretty high reviews but once again it was criticized for being "safe" and feeling like a "last gen" game. Despite that, I've never really heard anyone who has played it say anything terribly bad about it. In fact most JRPG fans herald it as an amazing game.

Basically, the way I understand it is this:
Critics: Its good but nothing new. FFXII ftw!
Gamers: These games are really good! Who cares if they are not overly innovative?

[Cloudane]

Lost Odyssey also got pretty high reviews but once again it was criticized for being "safe" and feeling like a "last gen" game.

Feeling like a 'last gen' game is why I love it :)

I'll never understand those who insist on change for change's sake. It was a winning formula already, and personally, if I wanted to play a MMO style game I'd go play WoW.

[Wolf Kanno]

Lost Odyssey also got pretty high reviews but once again it was criticized for being "safe" and feeling like a "last gen" game.

Feeling like a 'last gen' game is why I love it :)

I'll never understand those who insist on change for change's sake. It was a winning formula already, and personally, if I wanted to play a MMO style game I'd go play WoW.

You win some you lose some. I didn't like X's system when it came out myself. Overall, I felt XII took alot of good things from MMO's (massive expansive world that is so detailed it almost feels real) but even I admit the game has a few things I don't like (Grinding for materials for the ultimate weapons, respawning treasure chests with random drops to name a few) about the game that it got from MMO's. In XII's case I felt it was fine cause FF has always been about innovation, so I do not see the changes in XII to be bad.

Yet I do agree that the whining by critics on Mistwalker's games seem rather silly in my opinion. Sakeguchi to me at least has always been a good coordinator of talent. He may not be the best writer or the guy who came up with innovative battle systems, but he had this amazing ability to look at all the pieces and bring them together to make them something truly amazing. :cool:

[hotspot]

I don't have any problems with the music, i think most of it is really good.

I didn't really care that there weren't any characters that feelings for eachother.

i do agree with the 4th, i do tend to not undrstand what's going on.

i didn't like all of the character voices though, some just didn't really fit the characters.

i actually like ff12 alot, and i think it's a better final fantasy than 7,8 and 10 since i don't like 7 & 8 and don't really like 10 that much.