View Full Version : The Location of Dream Zanarkand
Jimsour
10-29-2007, 06:23 AM
Reading around on the internet, I read that "dream zanarkand" is actually located out at sea. This would make sense since something thats summoned becomes a physical entity.
However, if the Al Bhed could locate Baj temple, whats stopped them from locating Dream zanarkand?
theundeadhero
10-29-2007, 07:01 AM
Dream Zanarkand doesn't exist anywhere in the physical world. Dreams just don't do that.
Jimsour
10-29-2007, 07:20 AM
1000 years ago. It was the Machina War between Zanarkand and Bevelle. Despite being a great machina city, Zanarkand relied on summoners to fight. Bevelle's machina though, assured their victory and Zanarkand was doomed to destruction. Yu Yevon, not wanting Zanarkand to die forever, decided to preserve its memory. He called on all the surviving people, turned them into fayth and placed them on Mt. Gagazet, protected by a dense mist. From their memories he created Dream Zanarkand and set it far out at sea. To protect himself and his city while he summoned it, Yu Yevon amassed a great amount of pyreflies to form an armor around him; an armor called Sin. Thus, Sin was born, with its purpose to protect the Dream Zanarkand by any means possible. Summoning both the city and Sin was a greater strain than Yu Yevon could handle; thus only his instincts to protect his beloved city remained and the spiral of death started. Jecht and Tidus, father and son and citizens of the dream city, became real when they touched Sin and were brought to Spira to end the spiral of death that has ravaged it for 1000 years.
Zanarkand - The Final Fantasy Wiki has more Final Fantasy information than Cid could research (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Dream_Zanarkand#Dream_Zanarkand)
Renmiri
10-29-2007, 03:15 PM
I have photographic proof actually, scanned from my Ultimania :D
The map bellow shows a square with DZ on the top right (after you rotate the picture to it's proper setting). The layout of the land is quite different from the Zanarkand ruins on Yuna's area.
Image:Zanarkand us.jpg - FFProject (http://ffproject.net/forumwiki/index.php/Image:Zanarkand_us.jpg)
Ultimania FFX says that Yu Yevon and Sin kept all ships away from it.
Jimsour
10-29-2007, 10:10 PM
But Sin doesnt exist during the calm?
Tavrobel
10-29-2007, 11:33 PM
But Sin doesnt exist during the calm?
Yu Yevon can reset things at will.
BG-57
10-31-2007, 04:03 PM
This has to be the most confusing aspects of the game. Since Tidus was convinced through most of FFX that the real Zanarkand was the same as his DZ, and that it lay in ruins for 1000 years, he (and the player) were convinced that he travelled 1000 years in time. The game obviously did not do a great job clarifying this.
Once it becomes clear that they coexist in time, logically they cannot coexist in space. So they have to be in two different locations. Nowhere in DZ do we ever see Mt. Gagazet. Nor do we see land boundaries. So it being an island fits.
As for the dreaming, the dreams of the Fayth can actually take on a coporeal state using Pyreflies: Aeons, people, and an entire city even. What's equally interesting is that most of the inhabitants of DZ seem pretty unaware that they are living in an isolated self-contained place. Only Jecht and Auron seemed to be aware of anything beyond the borders.
Tavrobel
10-31-2007, 08:25 PM
It could be argued that this point was left intentionally obscure by the writers. Having to explain it in game would take a lengthy amount of time. I rather give to the writers for leaving it obscure, since it would take a heap of logic and putting things together to arrive at the conclusion that there was no time travel involved, especially because nowhere does it say in the game that Sin can defy physics. He flies because of his wings; he swims with fins; if anything, only Yu Yevon can do so, and at this point, he is a mass-less blob of octopussy.
Jecht was not initially aware that there was anything. He only was after an unfortunate occurance of running into Sin while training. Auron was also not originally from DZ, and since he's dead and all that, he's allowed to know these things.
cally777
10-31-2007, 08:27 PM
But Sin doesnt exist during the calm?
Yu Yevon can reset things at will.
Hmmm, does that fit in with this?
Summoning both the city and Sin was a greater strain than Yu Yevon could handle; thus only his instincts to protect his beloved city remained and the spiral of death started.
If Wiki has got it right. I'm not sure about the idea that Yu Yevon wasnt really on his game. But surely both can't be true.
:choc::choc::choc::choc:
Tavrobel
10-31-2007, 08:48 PM
Hmmm, does that fit in with this?
It is an ability that he has, and even if Sin is on cooldown, if someone ever found out about DZ and Yu Yevon knew about it, he could reset the city so that no one knew about the outsider. Most likely, the intruder would be killed.
Puzzle pieces must go together.
Since the city has already been summoned, it takes no further effort to set it back to point A. He is basically running the show, the calls, and taxing for utilities. I see no reason why it would take extra effort to change something that's already running independently of the summoner, just as it takes no extra MP to keep channeling a summon in a FF game. The cost is paid, and you go on your way.
~Death~Stalker~910
10-31-2007, 08:53 PM
2...smart talkin...head...hurting....
No.78
10-31-2007, 11:18 PM
DZ IS basically just a massive aeon right? I like to think of Zanarkand as FFX's version of Alexander in some ways.
It makes sense it's out at sea, in fact I was thinking about this the other day...
But anyway, Tidus has only assumed that the real Zanarkand is also an island at the beginning of the game, he does quite quickly realize that his Zanarkand was very different to this ones Zanarkand. So by the time he realizes it's not an island, well by then I think he pretty much knows he's a dream so it's not an issue.
Although yeah, I'm surprised nobody discovered it. I'm guessing the fayth concealed it from the world, and Sin is the only one who can enter or something.
EDIT: Heh Spiras shaped kinda like the UK
Renmiri
11-01-2007, 03:19 AM
Agreed. A huge aeon, being kept by Yu Yevon whose only instinct is to protect it's existence.
cally777
11-01-2007, 08:39 PM
Hmmm, does that fit in with this?
It is an ability that he has, and even if Sin is on cooldown, if someone ever found out about DZ and Yu Yevon knew about it, he could reset the city so that no one knew about the outsider. Most likely, the intruder would be killed.
Killed? By whom? The inhabitants of DZ? If our experience of Tidus and Jecht is typical they aren't barbarians and have considerable free will over their own affairs. Otherwise Tidus and his father could never have opposed Yu Yevon, even though they were in a sense his creatures (aeons).
So I think Jim Sour's point still remains that an Al Bhed ship could have located DZ and escaped during a period of Calm when Sin wasn't protecting it. Of course perhaps no one would have believed them...
:choc::choc::choc:
Tavrobel
11-01-2007, 08:51 PM
Killed? By whom? The inhabitants of DZ?
Have you ever met someone who has had his memory erased/no memories? Despite what TV drama suggests, they aren't just confused; they are also highly impressionable. Puzzle pieces. What would you do if your landlord asked for the utilities check, and you had no money? You'd either:
A) pay it
Really, there's no other choice. Payment isn't always money.
cally777
11-01-2007, 10:02 PM
Killed? By whom? The inhabitants of DZ?
Have you ever met someone who has had his memory erased/no memories? Despite what TV drama suggests, they aren't just confused; they are also highly impressionable. Puzzle pieces. What would you do if your landlord asked for the utilities check, and you had no money? You'd either:
A) pay it
Really, there's no other choice. Payment isn't always money.
Strangely my landlord is hassling me for more rent. So I kinda know what yr talking about and yet... Why couldn't YY erase Tidus memory when it really counted i.e. when his (YY's) a**e was about to be kicked.
:choc::choc::choc:
Tavrobel
11-01-2007, 10:37 PM
Because he [Tidus] is real now. Yu Yevon has no jurisdiction over the real world.
what ive always wondered is what's beyond the boarders of the DZ? is it connected to the mainland like in spira or is it, as some believe, an island somewhere out to sea with no connections to the outside world. i think its just a non-physical world that is just a dream. the only way to it is sin. the only physical thing in DZ because it was the gateway for tidus, jecht and auron to get into spira....okay wait.....now im thinking....sin disapeared at the end of the game, which means that it is part of yu yevons' dream as well. beacuse it is the the s**t end of the deal (pardon my pun). so really it dosent exist either. its just a giant flying killing whale machine...wow, i confused myself again. lol
Mr Cactuar
11-05-2007, 07:48 AM
Think of it like this. Theres the real world, Spira which contains the real Zanarkand, the ruins. Then, also in the real world, but in a different sort of way is the Dream Zanarkand, which anyone can really access but then again can't because of Sin. The Dream Zanarkand is real, because people can go there from the real world and leave there to the real world, but it isn't real because its just an aeon/dream and the people who leave the Dream Zanarkand are basically an unsent. The Matrix is a great comparison.
This sort of stuff is what makes FFX so good, all the theory and religous stuff is just amazing.
the only person that went to the DZ from Spira was auron. and well he's unsent so dose that have anything to do with going back and forth?
BG-57
11-17-2007, 11:01 PM
Yeah so any unsent character could theorectically travel to DZ and back. Only they don't. Of course so can the Fayth which I would count as unsent (they certainly aren't alive). Which would explain the random visits by the Fayth of Bahamut.
jammi567
11-18-2007, 12:08 AM
I've wondered this for a little while, but if the people of DZ have their own will to do what they want (which we can clearly see in the game), then why have they never tried to leave their island?
Skyblade
11-18-2007, 12:32 AM
I've wondered this for a little while, but if the people of DZ have their own will to do what they want (which we can clearly see in the game), then why have they never tried to leave their island?
Why do fish stay in the water? It doesn't occur to them to do otherwise. Even with free will, their island is the border of their world. It never occurs to them to leave, it doesn't occur to them that there is anything beyond there. They have their world, and their thoughts are tied to that world.
Renmiri
11-18-2007, 01:51 AM
I've wondered this for a little while, but if the people of DZ have their own will to do what they want (which we can clearly see in the game), then why have they never tried to leave their island?
Why do fish stay in the water? It doesn't occur to them to do otherwise. Even with free will, their island is the border of their world. It never occurs to them to leave, it doesn't occur to them that there is anything beyond there. They have their world, and their thoughts are tied to that world.
There is also some speculation that Yu Yevon "resets" those who find out the true nature of the city. A bit like "the Matrix", those who know get chased and destroyed... Can't really remember if that is fan theory or Ultimania though.
alright so, the dead can make it to the DZ but the thought dosent occour to them and same gose for the people of the DZ. their oblivous to it
Skyblade
11-18-2007, 02:08 PM
alright so, the dead can make it to the DZ but the thought dosent occour to them and same gose for the people of the DZ. their oblivous to it
That's the way I saw it. Which is part of the reason why, when Jecht left, no one thought of setting out to search for him. No one thought that he might still be out there. He left their world, so he was gone.
As to why Jecht left, I don't think even he was looking for something beyond DZ, but, since we're not told the reasons for his trip, we can't really know for sure.
BG-57
11-18-2007, 02:30 PM
Look at it this way: most of the time when you dream you aren't aware that you're dreaming. You simply accept the reality and boundaries of the dream without question.
alright so, the dead can make it to the DZ but the thought dosent occour to them and same gose for the people of the DZ. their oblivous to it
That's the way I saw it. Which is part of the reason why, when Jecht left, no one thought of setting out to search for him. No one thought that he might still be out there. He left their world, so he was gone.
As to why Jecht left, I don't think even he was looking for something beyond DZ, but, since we're not told the reasons for his trip, we can't really know for sure.
hmm alright, but i thought he went out on that boat for blitzball training.
Look at it this way: most of the time when you dream you aren't aware that you're dreaming. You simply accept the reality and boundaries of the dream without question.
yeah that makes a lot of scene
so we understand why the people dont venture out past the boarders of the city but we still havent worked out WHERE DZ is... since you know, that is the reason why were talking about this lol.
BG-57
11-19-2007, 12:27 PM
Well, DZ is shown in a inset in the world map that Renmiri linked. It's an island, and surrounded by water, and far enough from any major landmass that it's isolated. So it could be in any ocean. I'd guess it's in the far corner of the map, like Round Island in FFVII.
cally777
11-23-2007, 08:58 AM
Sorry to drag the discussion back, but I'm not convinced by the explanations for DZ people not leaving.
I've wondered this for a little while, but if the people of DZ have their own will to do what they want (which we can clearly see in the game), then why have they never tried to leave their island?
Why do fish stay in the water? It doesn't occur to them to do otherwise. Even with free will, their island is the border of their world. It never occurs to them to leave, it doesn't occur to them that there is anything beyond there. They have their world, and their thoughts are tied to that world.
Look at it this way: most of the time when you dream you aren't aware that you're dreaming. You simply accept the reality and boundaries of the dream without question.
People are not fish and as for dreams the DZ people believe theirs is real so its no different to real life. Jecht did leave and people did notice (Tidus memories show this), even if they mistakenly thought he died.
I think a nearer comparison than the Matrix is the Truman Show. (http://forums.eyesonff.com/http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Truman_Show)
For a while you can fool people not to leave the "bubble" they are in, but not for ever, and not for 1000 years.
:choc::choc::choc:
Firo Volondé
11-23-2007, 11:02 AM
the only person that went to the DZ from Spira was auron. and well he's unsent so dose that have anything to do with going back and forth?
That has everything to do with it, Auron implies shortly after revealing to Tidus that he is unsent that it was only because he died that he could travel to DZ, possibly because unsents have immunity to the toxin. Also, citizens of DZ seem to be able to use Sin as a ferry as well. I would say anyone else who tried that stunt would be badly affected by the toxin or killed by Sin's gravity attack.
Sorry to drag the discussion back, but I'm not convinced by the explanations for DZ people not leaving.
I've wondered this for a little while, but if the people of DZ have their own will to do what they want (which we can clearly see in the game), then why have they never tried to leave their island?
Why do fish stay in the water? It doesn't occur to them to do otherwise. Even with free will, their island is the border of their world. It never occurs to them to leave, it doesn't occur to them that there is anything beyond there. They have their world, and their thoughts are tied to that world.
Look at it this way: most of the time when you dream you aren't aware that you're dreaming. You simply accept the reality and boundaries of the dream without question.
People are not fish and as for dreams the DZ people believe theirs is real so its no different to real life. Jecht did leave and people did notice (Tidus memories show this), even if they mistakenly thought he died.
I think a nearer comparison than the Matrix is the Truman Show. (http://forums.eyesonff.com/http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Truman_Show)
For a while you can fool people not to leave the "bubble" they are in, but not for ever, and not for 1000 years.
:choc::choc::choc:
Yevon could have made the citizens of DZ any way he wanted, since he was their creator. Obviously, if they believed they were in the real Zanarkand, they would leave DZ to search for Bevelle, and be too difficult to control while maintaining Sin. His only goal was to keep DZ alive forever; this would be easiest if the citizens didn't wonder about the outside world.
I think (I haven't seen it in ages) that Truman needed a trigger to consider leaving the bubble. That trigger was a workroader he met never met saying "Goodbye Truman". However, Tidus knows that Auron is not a native of DZ, but since he's content to spend the rest of his life in Zanarkand, the trigger obviously has no effect on people in DZ. If the creators of The Truman Show (the show within the movie, not the movie) had been able to mould Truman the way YY moulds the citizens of DZ, he never would have questioned his universe.
Juggernaut
11-24-2007, 07:19 PM
During the single elephant-thing ride. (Eleshoo or something) Wakka says something about a city on the water. It was destroyed, apparently. Could that be what we are talking about?
BG-57
11-24-2007, 07:39 PM
No, it's just a random drowned city to show how much damage Sin has wrought to Spira over the years. Similar to the deep fissures in the Calm Lands.
As for the dream logic of Zanarkand to be within the dream is not the same as watching the dream from the outside. Of course they think of their existence as 'real', but that doesn't mean they accept the same rules of life in the dream as they would while awake. At any rate DZ did exist in isolation for 1000 years, so to say it couldn't is a moot point.
abrojtm
11-24-2007, 11:40 PM
I just figure some sort of summoned magical barrier/thick fog prevents citizens of DZ from leaving and citizens of Spira from finding DZ.
cally777
11-25-2007, 09:33 PM
I think a nearer comparison than the Matrix is the Truman Show. (http://forums.eyesonff.com/http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Truman_Show)
For a while you can fool people not to leave the "bubble" they are in, but not for ever, and not for 1000 years.
:choc::choc::choc:
Yevon could have made the citizens of DZ any way he wanted, since he was their creator. Obviously, if they believed they were in the real Zanarkand, they would leave DZ to search for Bevelle, and be too difficult to control while maintaining Sin. His only goal was to keep DZ alive forever; this would be easiest if the citizens didn't wonder about the outside world.
I think (I haven't seen it in ages) that Truman needed a trigger to consider leaving the bubble. That trigger was a workroader he met never met saying "Goodbye Truman". However, Tidus knows that Auron is not a native of DZ, but since he's content to spend the rest of his life in Zanarkand, the trigger obviously has no effect on people in DZ. If the creators of The Truman Show (the show within the movie, not the movie) had been able to mould Truman the way YY moulds the citizens of DZ, he never would have questioned his universe.
You're right, he did need a trigger! So what could have triggered Jecht into leaving DZ? Not Auron obviously (though he could have triggered Tidus).
There is another kind of being able to appear in any part of Spira at least to those who can see them (Summoners and DZ people?) The Fayth. The Fayth wanted to end Yu Yevon's control over them. A Fayth talks to Tidus even before Auron does.
So maybe it was the Fayth that guided Jecht through whatever barriers Yu Yevon had set up around DZ (to answer my own question).
. At any rate DZ did exist in isolation for 1000 years, so to say it couldn't is a moot point.
Obviously, but the point is why? If we knew more about how and why Jecht left DZ it would help.
:choc::choc::choc:
Tavrobel
11-25-2007, 09:53 PM
For a while you can fool people not to leave the "bubble" they are in, but not for ever, and not for 1000 years.
Tell that to the Church, because people can be fooled. For many, many years, people used to think that the world was flat, the Sun revolved around the Earth, and that Jesus was white.
The Earth is round (or as close as a giant mass of molten rock can be). The Earth revolves around the Sun in an elliptical orbit, even though "sunset" and "sunrise" are still used to describe the day. He's black. Think about it.
During the single elephant-thing ride. (Eleshoo or something) Wakka says something about a city on the water. It was destroyed, apparently. Could that be what we are talking about?
Random drowned city. Explains the massing of pyreflies in the vicinity of the Moonflow, because the city was built on a swamp/bridge-like construction, and it sank/fell, whatever your justification is. Fandom often treats this area as the city in which Yojimbo was formerly housed.
Obviously, but the point is why? If we knew more about how and why Jecht left DZ it would help.
It was an accident. The game says that he was out in the ocean practicing one day when he got polterpwned. Sin can carry anyone to and from the mainland Spira. Seeing as he is a giant blob of blob, he floats, he swims, he sings, he even solves crimes with Horatio in his spare time.
cally777
12-05-2007, 10:14 AM
For a while you can fool people not to leave the "bubble" they are in, but not for ever, and not for 1000 years.
Tell that to the Church, because people can be fooled. For many, many years, people used to think that the world was flat, the Sun revolved around the Earth, and that Jesus was white.
Sure, but that's not quite the same as tellling people its not worth leaving the city. That would be easy to check. It needed some guts/intelligence for someone to work out that the world isn't flat.
Obviously, but the point is why? If we knew more about how and why Jecht left DZ it would help.
It was an accident. The game says that he was out in the ocean practicing one day when he got polterpwned. Sin can carry anyone to and from the mainland Spira. Seeing as he is a giant blob of blob, he floats, he swims, he sings, he even solves crimes with Horatio in his spare time.
Hang on, as I remember it, we only have Tidus account of what people said about his father's disappearance. Unless I missed something, neither Auron, Braska or, most importantly, Jecht, tells exactly how he, Jecht, reached the mainland. It could have been an accident, but then ask yourself, only one accident in 1000 years? Maybe, but I prefer my theory that it was the Fayth.
:choc::choc::choc:
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