How FFXIII & FFVersusXIII aim to remain in FFXII's critical shadow

[lovedovey]

After I saw the newly released FFXIII ( Gametrailers.com - Final Fantasy XIII - Dengeki Special Edition Trailer (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/29007.html) ) and FFVersusXIII ( Gametrailers.com - Final Fantasy Versus XIII - Dengeki Special Edition Trailer (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/29006.html) ) trailers, I was at once excited and disappointed. It's a progression of FF into the next gen but in a greater sense it remains a regression when compared to FFXII.

Matsuno Yasuno's FFXII is when Final Fantasy grew up--boldly evident in it's art direction, but most conspicuously in it's narrative. It was a narrative flushed with florid, even occasionally literate, dialogue, a story arc concerned with political intrigue and worldly repercussions rather than the vanity of a girl-boy-girl love triangle, and a manner of characterization and direction that placed greater value in nuances of expressiveness rather than the gauche, teenage bravado and superficiality of Tidus, Cloud, Squall, or any of their similar spawn. A Final Fantasy without Matsuno (FF Tactics, Vagrant Story, or FFXII) is akin to a Jerry Bruckheimer production but with a Dawson's Creek ethos slathered in, very thickly.

While FFXII eschewed the teenage melodrama and ungainly storytelling of recent and past Final Fantasies, it also melded the best in western and Japanese RPGs and did away with long outmoded mainstays and annoyances in both: no more random battles or time wasting end-battle EXP/gil summary screens; seamless integration of exploration and battle modes creating an amplified sense of immersion; a choice to micro- or macro-manage battles allowing for leisurely or frantic fighting via the Gambit system; the creative synthesis of single player RPG and MMORPG mechanics; a 3D camera control allowing for full view of Ivalice's grandeur, again adding to the immense sense of immersion; a strong female lead (Ashe is inarguably the lead) who is neither feeble nor whiny nor a submissive stereotype; locales (especially the metropolises) that felt alive with the denizens and not a static contrivance of NPCs. The innovations, evolution, and discarded conventions are considerable. FFXII is not without its faults, even though it's one of only six games to get a perfect rating in Famitsu (not that Famitsu still holds value for everyone), but it does represent the first time Final Fantasy can be considered entertainment for more than mostly kids and teenagers. Along with games like FF Tactics, Ico, Bioshock, and Half Life 2, FFXII is one of those rare times where a video game has a story to tell that won't make you blush too much. It's not on par with finer cinema or literature, very far from it, but at least it displays an ambition to get there someday.

(And here's a decent summation by 1Up's Jeremy Parish of why FFXII "is easily the best in the series": Toastyfrog.com: Compendium of Useless Information : Games - Final Fantasy XII browse (http://www.toastyfrog.com/toastywiki/index.php/Games/FinalFantasyXII) )

Those who dislike FFXII are likely to enjoy FFXIII. It's a return to the maturity level before Matsuo came in; a return to the cliches of a vapid but sullen hero with an elemental name (Lightning meet Cloud) and a farcically huge sword, zippered sportswear and asexual garments, and--because of the staff involved--a story that might rival FF7-10 in it's attempt to perfectly mirror a Ben Affleck summer blockbuster with inconsequential love interest and inconsequential ass kicking of inconsequential baddies who are equally as vapid as the hero and his love interest.

And yet inspite all that, I am completely hyped for FFXIII. FFXII's art director, Kamikokuyrou Isamu, is XIII's art director and as the trailer's have revealed, Isamu's breathtaking baroque aesthetic seems to have tempered the plastic, futuristic-sacharinity and over-simplicity of everything that Nomura Tetsuya touches--ostensibly the character designs are still very Nomura. The worlds the trailer briefly unveils looks like something I wish to immerse myself in. The music sounds as captivating, though not as ornate, as Sakimoto's FFXII score. So while my expectations for the direction, story, dialogue, and voice acting remain low, the art direction, music, and gameplay adequately retains my considerable interest and excitement.

As for FFVersusXIII, the music in the trailer while competent does sound a bit like a poor man's opera--watered down for an audience that doesn't know of Bellini or Puccini. The game itself looks dreadfully Nomura. If FFXII is an indictment of the maturity level of previous Final Fantasies and FFXIII a tearing down of the maturity level FFXII had achieved, FFVersusXIII looks to abolish all adult ambitions by winning the hearts of the demographic not quite old enough to get a driver's license--or those who enjoyed Kingdom Hearts. I don't know if I have the patience for a main character more sullen than a Prozac-popper on Medicare and so exceedingly self-absorbed he wears all black cause he thinks it's slimming.

[Yar]

I am expecting Final Fantasy XIII to out do them all, as I always do. There is no doubt in my mind this one will be better than XII. Although XII is my least favorite, I don't think it is a bad game. It is just my thirteen favorite. Personally I would love to see future installments that are closer to VI than they are to XII.

[Nifleheim7]

It always amazes me how some people are so eager to condemn something that they barely even know about...
Please leave us common fools to enjoy the cliches of every Final fantasy that wasn't created by Matsuno.

[Dragonsoul]

:cool:

[Vivisteiner]

I liked all the FFs I played (VII, VIII, IX, X, XII).

I hope that FFXIII doesnt have a bad love story, like FFVIII and I hope it retains the sophistication and political intrigue of FFXII. But I hope that it has better overall character developement.


I'm most worried about FFvXIII because Nomura could screw it up. Especially if its anything like Kingdom Hearts.

[Silvercry]

It never ceases to amaze me how people can pass judgment on a FF years before it even comes out with minimal information at best. My favorite was the internet outcry when FF VIII was announced. All anyone knew was that it was love story, and that the only confirmed characters at the time were Squall and Laguna. So countless people just assumed that it was a gay love story and swore never to play it.

While this rant is not as puerile as that one was (it was actually well written and makes some good points about FF XII) it's still moot since no one knows enough about the game to make these kinds of determinations.

I will reserve judgment until I spend no fewer than 15 hours with the game. I suggest you all do the same.

[Raebus]

It never ceases to amaze me how every people can pass judgment on a FF years before it even comes out with minimal information at best. My favorite was the internet outcry when FF VIII was announced. All anyone knew was that it was love story, and that the only confirmed characters at the time were Squall and Laguna. So countless people just assumed that it was a gay love story and swore never to play it.

While this rant is not as puerile as that one was (it was actually well written and makes some good points about FF XII) it's still moot since no one knows enough about the game to make these kinds of determinations.

I will reserve judgment until I spend no fewer than 15 hours with the game. I suggest you all do the same.

Bravo! I agree with this man's post.

[Roto13]

It never ceases to amaze me how every people can pass judgment on a FF years before it even comes out with minimal information at best. My favorite was the internet outcry when FF VIII was announced. All anyone knew was that it was love story, and that the only confirmed characters at the time were Squall and Laguna. So countless people just assumed that it was a gay love story and swore never to play it.

It should have been. :P It worked for Wild Arms 2.

[Vivisteiner]

A gay love story would have been better than the one they ended up with. Because, frankly speaking, the final love story couldn't have got much worse.


Ok, I'll stop my rant. Of course I agree with Silvercry, although there is a difference between aprehension and writing a game off.

[LunarWeaver]

I like VI and above just fine, and I celebrate their differences rather then wish they were all the same thing. I think VIII and XII are peachy the way they are. And I'm excited for XIII from what little I've seen. But lack of a love story didn't automatically equal "for big boys and girls" to me as it seems to for most people. I see good things about having one and not having one.

[Silvercry]

A gay love story would have been better than the one they ended up with. Because, frankly speaking, the final love story couldn't have got much worse.



I'm jonesing for a good lesbian romance sub-plot myself. Not for FF specifically, just in general. I'd play Mass Effect, but I don’t have a 360.

[Cleansation]

I love both the love and political stories in FF but i actually prefer the love stories, FFXll just really didnt do much for me, the characters was not anything worth writing about (well i actually expected a gay ending with vaan and basch but that is just me...) and the story was to flat and boring.

I'm not a fan of the random battles but it would be good if they mixed the old battle system with the new ffXll.

[*Lady luck*]

It never ceases to amaze me how every people can pass judgment on a FF years before it even comes out with minimal information at best. My favorite was the internet outcry when FF VIII was announced. All anyone knew was that it was love story, and that the only confirmed characters at the time were Squall and Laguna. So countless people just assumed that it was a gay love story and swore never to play it.

It should have been. :P It worked for Wild Arms 2.

what!? wild arms 2 wasn't a gay love story.

but anyways... i am very excited for this game, and it is probably the only reason i will buy a ps3.

[Roto13]

It never ceases to amaze me how every people can pass judgment on a FF years before it even comes out with minimal information at best. My favorite was the internet outcry when FF VIII was announced. All anyone knew was that it was love story, and that the only confirmed characters at the time were Squall and Laguna. So countless people just assumed that it was a gay love story and swore never to play it.

It should have been. :P It worked for Wild Arms 2.

what!? wild arms 2 wasn't a gay love story.

Brad and Billy. (It was more apparent in the Japanese version.)

[Fynn]

That was a bit harsh... I mean, XII was great, spectacular, had a briliant story and I agree all that, but the other ones also have some depth to them. For example: when I think VII, I don't think "ZOMG, Cloud!", but of the story and how it touched life, death and all that stuff. I played all the FFs from the main series (excluding IX, unfortunately) as well as some of the spin-offs and love them all. Meh.

BTW, shouldn't this be in General FF? I mean, it's more about XII than XIII and there are also many other games mentioned.

[Silvercry]

As an aside, am I the only one who isn’t impressed by the graphics shown in the trailers? Not because they aren’t good - they are - but because awesome graphics are pretty much the Standard these days. With gaming consoles as powerful as they are (yes, even the Wii) there is no longer any excuse for a game not to look simply freaking amazing. Amazing has become the new average. I'm dying to find out how XIII and Vs. XIII actually play. What are battles like? How important is NPC interaction? Is there non-linear storytelling? Is exploration encouraged in a open world (ie, FF XII?) or am I forced down "pretty hallway" of zones (ie: FF X or KH?)? Will they use the capacity of blu-ray disks to do more than throw some pretty graphics and voice acting at me? How about branching story line points, complete with fleshed out consequences that actually change the way the rest of the game plays out (think Mass Effect only much, much better). These are the things I wonder about when I think of FF XIII. Not how great it looks. That's pretty much a given.

[Hazzard]

As an aside, am I the only one who isn’t impressed by the graphics shown in the trailers?

I think you're the only one...:rolleyes2

[Pure Strife]

Big mature story about empires at war that touches on modern day and historical issues surrounding international conflict? No thanks, couldn't care less.

If I want real life, I'll go outside. If I want empires at war, I'll read a history book. If I want in depth, (debatably) well thought out, technical music I'll go and see what Dream Theater are doing nowadays.

I have a life, a job, friends, a girlfriend, and all the stresses that come along with that. When I sit down to zone out I want to be a badass, sullen hero. I want explosions. I want over the top battle animations where someone flies around with a sword and rains comets on someone. I want cheesy 80's style speed metal playing over everything. I want daft stories, and attractive women in minimal amounts of clothing.

Real life is great, but I like my Final Fantasy to be just that - total outrageous fantasy. Where the characters actually get proper development. No matter how cheesy it is. Unlike XII. So the more like the PS1 era games this is (in story, I liked FFXII's gameplay) this is, the happier I'll be.

[VeloZer0]

Wow, that was very well put. Though I do find it easier to get involved in a more in depth story I completely agree with the gist of your point.

[Markus. D]

It always amazes me how some people are so eager to condemn something that they barely even know about...
Please leave us common fools to enjoy the cliches of every Final fantasy that wasn't created by Matsuno.

For the win~ in other words.

[Mr Cactuar]

Matsuno Yasuno's FFXII is when Final Fantasy grew up--boldly evident in it's art direction, but most conspicuously in it's narrative. It was a narrative flushed with florid, even occasionally literate, dialogue, a story arc concerned with political intrigue and worldly repercussions rather than the vanity of a girl-boy-girl love triangle, and a manner of characterization and direction that placed greater value in nuances of expressiveness rather than the gauche, teenage bravado and superficiality of Tidus, Cloud, Squall, or any of their similar spawn. A Final Fantasy without Matsuno (FF Tactics, Vagrant Story, or FFXII) is akin to a Jerry Bruckheimer production but with a Dawson's Creek ethos slathered in, very thickly.

Wow. It never ceases to amaze me how the people that love FFXII are so shallow when it comes to their 'narrative'. I;m not going to begin writing about all the problems with FFXII story-wise but I will say this. Just because it is a story about 2 big warring nations, and filled with shallow political intrigue, it does not make it 'mature'. The FFVII compilation and its character development and deep story, amazing characters FFX with its great chracter development, turning Tidus from a whiny boy into a man willing to accept his fate, its story of a corrupt religion, FFVI and its great characters, the insane Kefka, Kingdom Hearts and its 'childish' nature still but a mature story nonetheless teaching good morales, these are 'mature' stories. I cannot see how anyone can truly believe FFXII to be so 'mature' when nothing is properly explained to you and everything is squandered and in my opinion made to look 'mature'.


While FFXII eschewed the teenage melodrama and ungainly storytelling of recent and past Final Fantasies, it also melded the best in western and Japanese RPGs and did away with long outmoded mainstays and annoyances in both: no more random battles or time wasting end-battle EXP/gil summary screens; seamless integration of exploration and battle modes creating an amplified sense of immersion; a choice to micro- or macro-manage battles allowing for leisurely or frantic fighting via the Gambit system; the creative synthesis of single player RPG and MMORPG mechanics; a 3D camera control allowing for full view of Ivalice's grandeur, again adding to the immense sense of immersion; a strong female lead (Ashe is inarguably the lead) who is neither feeble nor whiny nor a submissive stereotype; locales (especially the metropolises) that felt alive with the denizens and not a static contrivance of NPCs. The innovations, evolution, and discarded conventions are considerable. FFXII is not without its faults, even though it's one of only six games to get a perfect rating in Famitsu (not that Famitsu still holds value for everyone), but it does represent the first time Final Fantasy can be considered entertainment for more than mostly kids and teenagers. Along with games like FF Tactics, Ico, Bioshock, and Half Life 2, FFXII is one of those rare times where a video game has a story to tell that won't make you blush too much. It's not on par with finer cinema or literature, very far from it, but at least it displays an ambition to get there someday.

For the gameplay areas I have this to say. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And the 'great gambit system and great battle system' is horribly flawed with how goddamn easy it makes things. I want some sort of challenge when I play a game, and I only died once in the entire game, when I attacked one of those sand dinosaurs. Judge Bergan almost killed me too, but that was about it. A monster in the field never came close to killing me because I was always fighting 1 monster at a time and this was all without using a quickening, let along a quickening chain, once. That would have made it even easier then it already was. The license board was ok, despite have no real reason for being there.

How is Ashe a great lead? She had to be told what to do all the time and could never make up her own mind. She is definitely a submissive character.


Those who dislike FFXII are likely to enjoy FFXIII. It's a return to the maturity level before Matsuo came in; a return to the cliches of a vapid but sullen hero with an elemental name (Lightning meet Cloud) and a farcically huge sword, zippered sportswear and asexual garments, and--because of the staff involved--a story that might rival FF7-10 in it's attempt to perfectly mirror a Ben Affleck summer blockbuster with inconsequential love interest and inconsequential ass kicking of inconsequential baddies who are equally as vapid as the hero and his love interest.

Again, I fail to see how having flying airships battling eachother and a bunch of warlords in massive, unrealistic, suits of armour makes the game more mature. We have been told already that Lightning is not the protaganist of FFXIII and that that is not her real name in the game, it is a code name. Also if you truly understood FFVII and FFX then you would know that what you have just said is completely incorrect. What you have said sounds like a very childish take on FFVII-FFX, that you have missed important things, and that opinion is often the fanboy/fangirl that people dislike (OMGS ITS CLOUD AND TIDUS OMFG).


And yet inspite all that, I am completely hyped for FFXIII. FFXII's art director, Kamikokuyrou Isamu, is XIII's art director and as the trailer's have revealed, Isamu's breathtaking baroque aesthetic seems to have tempered the plastic, futuristic-sacharinity and over-simplicity of everything that Nomura Tetsuya touches--ostensibly the character designs are still very Nomura. The worlds the trailer briefly unveils looks like something I wish to immerse myself in. The music sounds as captivating, though not as ornate, as Sakimoto's FFXII score. So while my expectations for the direction, story, dialogue, and voice acting remain low, the art direction, music, and gameplay adequately retains my considerable interest and excitement.

Tetsuya Nomura is a fantastic character designer, FFXII's score is decent, but forgotten due to no Uematsu or known battle theme and I generally agree and disagree with this statement.


As for FFVersusXIII, the music in the trailer while competent does sound a bit like a poor man's opera--watered down for an audience that doesn't know of Bellini or Puccini. The game itself looks dreadfully Nomura. If FFXII is an indictment of the maturity level of previous Final Fantasies and FFXIII a tearing down of the maturity level FFXII had achieved, FFVersusXIII looks to abolish all adult ambitions by winning the hearts of the demographic not quite old enough to get a driver's license--or those who enjoyed Kingdom Hearts. I don't know if I have the patience for a main character more sullen than a Prozac-popper on Medicare and so exceedingly self-absorbed he wears all black cause he thinks it's slimming.

Again, what is wrong with Nomura? Also no-one is making you play any of these games so why can't other people enjoy it, and these sort of games, and not you? People have different tastes. I have a drivers license, I enjoyed Kingdom Hearts, does that make me a bad person? Does this make me have bad taste in games? I enjoyed what you call mature games such as Ico, Shadow of the Colossus, Half Life and Bioshock, and I agree that they are also 'mature' games, but this does not stop the FFVII and FFX from being mature.

I like the look of FFXIII, it looks absolutely insane, and I 'enjoyed' FFXII. While I was in the end, not thrilled with it, I cannot say that I don't believe it wasn't $100 well spent.

[Roto13]

Tetsuya Nomura is a fantastic character designer

No. Just... no.

[Vivisteiner]

^Hey! Thats my phrase. :mad2:


Mr Cactuar, I sort of agree with your maturity arguments, apart from Kingdom Hearts. Your argument lost some of its credibility in my eyes when you added that to the list. Anyway, I dont think all stories should be that mature. While FFX was less mature, it was still fun.

(Forgets laughing scene...god, it burns)


And I thought FFXII's gameplay was best. I mean, I completed FFVII, FFVIII and FFX only dying around twice on average. At least in FFXII I died quite a few times.


About Nomura, I think he ranges from very good to why-doesn't-SE-just-get-a-new-fucking-character-designer-instead-of-that-boring-unoriginal-piece-of-turd.

[Mr Cactuar]

^Hey! Thats my phrase. :mad2:


Mr Cactuar, I sort of agree with your maturity arguments, apart from Kingdom Hearts. Your argument lost some of its credibility in my eyes when you added that to the list. Anyway, I dont think all stories should be that mature. While FFX was less mature, it was still fun.

(Forgets laughing scene...god, it burns)


And I thought FFXII's gameplay was best. I mean, I completed FFVII, FFVIII and FFX only dying around twice on average. At least in FFXII I died quite a few times.


About Nomura, I think he ranges from very good to why-doesn't-SE-just-get-a-new-smurfing-character-designer-instead-of-that-boring-unoriginal-piece-of-turd.

What I meant about Kingdom Hearts was that it can definitely be observed as a kids game, but older, maturer people can like the game as well, but not in the same way as an older, maturer person would like Super Mario 64.

And if you're trying to tell me that this

http://www.ffcompendium.com/art/12-vaan-a.jpg

http://sosrpg.com/images/perso/reks.jpg
http://www.ashelia.com/Ashe_aka_Ashelia_Princess.jpg

Are better then this:

http://www.ffrepublic.com/pics/198-dslfimmjvn.jpg

http://ffx2rpg.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/auron.jpg

Then I have no idea how you could.

Sure, lately Nomura has been kinda stupid designs, the character we see in the Versus trailer is a sign of this, but I still like them, and you still buy the games :-|

[Roto13]

Nomura sucks. Hard.

"Hmm, how am I going to make this main character stand out? I know! I'll make him really effeminate! And give him way too many belts! And a necklace we can make real-life replicas of and sell for hundreds of dollars! I'VE NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE EVER!"

[Mr Cactuar]

The 'tripod' pic is a pic of Auron.

Curse you tripod, curse you...

[SoulTaker*]

Sorry im gonna have to go with Nomura. Im a History major and im minoring in English lit. I enjoy Politics and a good book but I struggled through FFXII's storyline. I hardly consider FF7, 8 and 10 vapid or childish. If all you noticed were the love stories then you didnt pay attention basically.

As for the character designs, Nomura still kicks ass. XII's designs were ok, but Nomura still has the cool factor. Granted the main character in versus looks like a rough draft of Cloud, but the others look excellent.

[lovedovey]

Granted the main character in versus looks like a rough draft of Cloud, but the others look excellent.


Same could be said of Lightning. (image from another site; not my own)

http://squarehaven.com/media/blurb-uploads/82uf2fb_1.jpg

[Mr Cactuar]

They've already said that they got her design off Cloud, and basically said that she was a female version of Cloud.

Whats your point?




About Nomura, I think he ranges from very good to why-doesn't-SE-just-get-a-new-smurfing-character-designer-instead-of-that-boring-unoriginal-piece-of-turd

Lol, I agree with this statement. There are some of his characters that are not original-ish, but they wouldn't be the same characters if they didn't look like that would they?

(disregard Organisation XIII)

[Omni-Odin]

I'm super-psyched for these games!!!

Also, I think Lightning kind of looks like the girl from the Departed with blond hair. I don't know if it's just me or what.


Google Image Result for http://www.nndb.com/people/744/000122378/vera-farmiga-1-sized.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nndb.com/people/744/000122378/vera-farmiga-1-sized.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.nndb.com/people/744/000122378/&h=280&w=188&sz=16&hl=en&start=10&um=1&tbnid=_OKTMOw6-lx4tM:&tbnh=114&tbnw=77&prev=/images%3Fq%3DVera%2BFarmiga%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG)

That's her picture if you haven't seen her.

[Nifleheim7]

Damn you Mr.Cactuar for reminding me how awful the character designs were in FFXII!!!:mad2:
Who's the transexual below Vaan?I think my mind subconciously deleted "him" from my memory...
The only characters that really stood out as designs were the Judges,Moogles,Occuria,Garif,and of course the espers although the later are considered creature designs rather than characters.

Anyway,i said it before and i will say it again:it's way to early to judge these games but if you are so close minded as the topic starter then maybe you should just stay away from these games (or any FF who isn't based on Ivalice)

[Mr Cactuar]

Damn you Mr.Cactuar for reminding me how awful the character designs were in FFXII!!!:mad2:
Who's the transexual below Vaan?I think my mind subconciously deleted "him" from my memory...
The only characters that really stood out as designs were the Judges,Moogles,Occuria,Garif,and of course the espers although the later are considered creature designs rather than characters.

Anyway,i said it before and i will say it again:it's way to early to judge these games but if you are so close minded as the topic starter then maybe you should just stay away from these games (or any FF who isn't based on Ivalice)

That character is Reks, Vaan's older, deader, brother. The reason why he 'hates' Archadia :-|

[Karellen]

If every FF game was based around Ivalice from now on I probably wouldn't complain.

Unless they ended up like Revenant Wings and Tactics Advance.

[lovedovey]

If I want in depth, (debatably) well thought out, technical music I'll go and see what Dream Theater are doing nowadays.

You have Van Gogh's ear for music.


When I sit down to zone out I want to be a badass, sullen hero. I want explosions. I want over the top battle animations where someone flies around with a sword and rains comets on someone. I want daft stories, and attractive women in minimal amounts of clothing.

Surely you're speaking of 'Pearl Harbor.' Not coincidentally a Jerry Bruckheimer-produced Ben Affleck blockbuster. Cheers.


Just because it is a story about 2 big warring nations, and filled with shallow political intrigue, it does not make it 'mature'.

No where in my post did I argue that the mere presence of a political conscience is the sole, or even main, reason for the newfound maturity.


The FFVII compilation and its character development and deep story, amazing characters FFX with its great chracter development, turning Tidus from a whiny boy into a man willing to accept his fate, its story of a corrupt religion, FFVI and its great characters, the insane Kefka, Kingdom Hearts and its 'childish' nature still but a mature story nonetheless teaching good morales, these are 'mature' stories... Also if you truly understood FFVII and FFX then you would know that what you have just said is completely incorrect. What you have said sounds like a very childish take on FFVII-FFX, that you have missed important things, and that opinion is often the fanboy/fangirl that people dislike (OMGS ITS CLOUD AND TIDUS OMFG).

Your syntax, diction, grammar, and vocabulary betray your age or merely your facility with the English language. If English isn't your first language, then I apologize. However, "if you truly understood" my post, "then you [too] would know that what you have just said is completely incorrect."



Who's the transexual below Vaan?

As mentioned in press at the time and also the Jeremy Parish link in my initial post, the character designs for Vaan and Ashe, but Vaan in particular, were some of the concessions Matsuno had to make, to retain some continuity with the metrosexual, self-loving archetypes (Cloud, Squall, Tidus) Nomura had so successfully brought to popularity. FFXII was a dramatic depature in the series--a similarily effete character in Vaan was meant to make the transition easier. Fortunately, his in-game engine model is much more palatable. The same cannot be said of the Vaan conceptual art.


It never ceases to amaze me how people can pass judgment on a FF years before it even comes out with minimal information at best. ... no one knows enough about the game to make these kinds of determinations.

I will reserve judgment until I spend no fewer than 15 hours with the game. I suggest you all do the same.

And yet the contingent of voices who lavish praise and excitement on yet to be released games are never reproached for their prognosticating. Only if judgments passed are complimentary, though equally uninformed and premature, do some people selectively not take umbrage.

Please don't quadruple post. Use x-quote or edit your post if you wish to add to it. - Azar

[Omni-Odin]

Nomura is just far and away better. Character designs and everything. What would a person rather have:

A. Someone childish who never reached passed the third grade and, for that matter, puberty. (While wearing a halter top)

or

B. A man's man who will step up to a challenge, get the girl, and look like a badass doing so.

It's really not hard to see who the better character designer is. Plus, the second one in question doesn't need a sequel to pick up the chick.

[Yar]

Personally, I'd prefer if Perez Hilton designed XIII's characters.

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/34/198dslfimmjvnlh8.th.jpg (http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?image=198dslfimmjvnlh8.jpg)
(click to enlarge)

Agreed?

As long as the charcter's don't suck ass, I think it's fine. Personally, I think all the characters in the series have been great. I know XIII will try to out-do the previous 12.

[Roto13]

B. A man's man who will step up to a challenge, get the girl, and look like a badass doing so.

You mean like Tidus?

[Mr Cactuar]

Just because it is a story about 2 big warring nations, and filled with shallow political intrigue, it does not make it 'mature'.

No where in my post did I argue that the mere presence of a political conscience is the sole, or even main, reason for the newfound maturity.


The FFVII compilation and its character development and deep story, amazing characters FFX with its great chracter development, turning Tidus from a whiny boy into a man willing to accept his fate, its story of a corrupt religion, FFVI and its great characters, the insane Kefka, Kingdom Hearts and its 'childish' nature still but a mature story nonetheless teaching good morales, these are 'mature' stories... Also if you truly understood FFVII and FFX then you would know that what you have just said is completely incorrect. What you have said sounds like a very childish take on FFVII-FFX, that you have missed important things, and that opinion is often the fanboy/fangirl that people dislike (OMGS ITS CLOUD AND TIDUS OMFG).

Your syntax, diction, grammar, and vocabulary betray your age or merely your facility with the English language. If English isn't your first language, then I apologize. However, "if you truly understood" my post, "then you [too] would know that what you have just said is completely incorrect."

English is my only language, and I feel quite at hand with it, considering English is one of my better subjects. Attempts at insulting my intelligence is not going to win you debates :cookie

Ok then, what are your reasons for XII being mature? Poorly developed characters, a poorly developed story and poorly designed main characters and a poorly written script is not what a 'mature' game generally has. Add in all of the gameplay flaws, then, oh, yes, I can exactly how XII is a great game.

[Nifleheim7]

Who's the transexual below Vaan?

As mentioned in press at the time and also the Jeremy Parish link in my initial post, the character designs for Vaan and Ashe, but Vaan in particular, were some of the concessions Matsuno had to make, to retain some continuity with the metrosexual, self-loving archetypes (Cloud, Squall, Tidus) Nomura had so successfully brought to popularity. FFXII was a dramatic depature in the series--a similarily effete character in Vaan was meant to make the transition easier. Fortunately, his in-game engine model is much more palatable. The same cannot be said of the Vaan conceptual art.

Excuse me but i personally find the character designs in FFVII (for example) much more original than the ones in FFXII.
Maybe it's because the character designs and especially costumes in FFXII reminded me a lot of western RPG's.
And no i really can't see the similarities of Vaan,Reks or Balthier with Cloud,Barret or Cid.Simple as that.

[Yar]

Now I certainly am not defending XII (oh god, what a trainwreck), but I felt it was a mature game. I found XI to be immature, but that was probably all the eleven-year-olds running around telling me to "*****, ***** and ****".

I don't think any of the games have really not been mature, except for some non-numbered games (MQ, CC). The III DS remake was really childish. But, that may also be becuase of the system it's on.

[Omni-Odin]

B. A man's man who will step up to a challenge, get the girl, and look like a badass doing so.

You mean like Tidus?

To put emphasis on the calling out. Tidus was involved in a professional sport where he probably got a bunch of action. Excuse the fact that his father was also a badass, and he had to live up to it. Tidus became one. I dislike his outfit, but if he didn't die, he would have had the girl at the end of that game.

There are only two awesome playable characters in XII, compared to Auron, Kimahri, and Lulu (I don't care what you say). Plus, Tidus became a leader only after a couple hours of play whereas characters like Vaan and Penelo should have been put on a shelf, never to be seen again. And nice nose job Vaan has. Real awesome.

[Roto13]

B. A man's man who will step up to a challenge, get the girl, and look like a badass doing so.

You mean like Tidus?

To put emphasis on the calling out. Tidus was involved in a professional sport where he probably got a bunch of action. Excuse the fact that his father was also a badass, and he had to live up to it. Tidus became one. I dislike his outfit, but if he didn't die, he would have had the girl at the end of that game.

Badass man's men don't cry all the time. There was nothing even remotely badass about him.

[Omni-Odin]

You don't have a heart if you don't cry when forced to kill your father.

[Roto13]

It's not like it's a single stray tear or anything, either. That could be badass. No, it's straightup sobbing and crying. Face it. Tidus is a pansy.

[Momiji]

B. A man's man who will step up to a challenge, get the girl, and look like a badass doing so.

You mean like Tidus?

To put emphasis on the calling out. Tidus was involved in a professional sport where he probably got a bunch of action. Excuse the fact that his father was also a badass, and he had to live up to it. Tidus became one. I dislike his outfit, but if he didn't die, he would have had the girl at the end of that game.

There are only two awesome playable characters in XII, compared to Auron, Kimahri, and Lulu (I don't care what you say). Plus, Tidus became a leader only after a couple hours of play whereas characters like Vaan and Penelo should have been put on a shelf, never to be seen again. And nice nose job Vaan has. Real awesome.

Tidus never had any freaking leadership skills. He was pathetic in every sense of the word. I never used him in my party, even. (Note: Yuna, Auron, and Lulu were who I used most.)

[Mr Cactuar]

Besides the fact that this is completely out of context.

Tidus matured throughout the game. You can tell, not only in what he says but also in the way his voice changes. On the special disk that comes with one of the versions, the voice dub he has talks about how he tried to do that.

[Roto13]

His raising maturity from age 5 to age 8 still didn't leave him any more manly than he was in the beginning. You could seriously tie a great big bow to his head and the impact of his character design would be the same.

[Nifleheim7]

His raising maturity from age 5 to age 8 still didn't leave him any more manly than he was in the beginning. You could seriously tie a great big bow to his head and the impact of his character design would be the same.

The fact that so many people love Tidus and at the same time a lot of people hate him means that he is a succesful character creation...
When a character really fails is when noone cares about him/her (FFXII).

[Roto13]

Seems there's enough love/hate of the FF XII characters going around.

[Nifleheim7]

Seems there's enough love/hate of the FF XII characters going around.

I think that even the people who like FFXII don't really care about the characters.What they like mostly in this game is the story and the whole mythos of Ivalice.

[Roto13]

There's enough Basch/Balthier/Fran/Ashe erotic fan fiction to go around. Actually, the only character people don't seem to care about at all is Vaan.

[Karellen]

Every single protagonist the series has spawned has been mediocre to awful, with the possible exception of Ramza who still wasn't particularly interesting. What's that old meme about winning the Special Olympics? Yeah.

[Mr Cactuar]

Every single protagonist the series a spawned has been mediocre to awful, with the possible exception of Ramza who still wasn't particularly interesting. What's that old meme about winning the Special Olympics? Yeah.

You forgot to add IMHO in there.

[Karellen]

I really see no point.

[Pure Strife]

If I want in depth, (debatably) well thought out, technical music I'll go and see what Dream Theater are doing nowadays.

You have Van Gogh's ear for music.

I'm actually a trained musician myself. I'd still rather pick up my electric guitar and thrash out a three chord song, or listen to a nice bit of Faith No More than listen to some overblown, boring epic. Nobuo's work in FF7 and FF8 sticks in my head more than anything else I've heard, despite being digitally composed. It's all about catchy little melodies that stick in the mind, particularly the individual character themes. I'd love to see a return to that sort of simplistic genius in FFXIII, though I doubt it'll happen.



When I sit down to zone out I want to be a badass, sullen hero. I want explosions. I want over the top battle animations where someone flies around with a sword and rains comets on someone. I want daft stories, and attractive women in minimal amounts of clothing.

Surely you're speaking of 'Pearl Harbor.' Not coincidentally a Jerry Bruckheimer-produced Ben Affleck blockbuster. Cheers.

Ah yes, because everyone on the internet is ignorant of everything other than anime and bizarre sexual fetishes. Except you of course, oh great one. Enlighten me though, on what this has to do with anything I said if you can spare the time. I must be really ignorant, because this appears to be of no relevance whatsoever. Cheers.

FFXIII, so far, looks like a return to the over the top, pseudo-futuristic Final Fantasy I personally love. And that's awesome =)

[Bolivar]

Ok, first off, I just wanna say I'm with Mr. Cactuar, i understand everything you've said.

The original poster, while extremely eloquent (although I would rather call it superfluous) is the perfect example of fans of Final Fantasy who like to be overly nit-picking and generalizing with the games they don't like, and then build up this artificial intellectualism to justify why they like another installment better. The internet is a sad thing.

I think this quote best illustrates what I mean:


As for FFVersusXIII, the music in the trailer while competent does sound a bit like a poor man's opera--watered down for an audience that doesn't know of Bellini or Puccini.

Hilarious. If you're going to scrutinize a FF because one musical piece would not satisfy the connoiseurs of its genre... You may want to seriously re-consider why you're playing video games.

Also, because your post concerns the aspects of music, story, artistic direction, and characters, everything you have to say is absolutely meaningless outside of what it is that you personally prefer. I understand that may be your entire point, but during my time on these forums I've seen far too often presumptuous and cynical pricks (for lack of a better word) pass off opinion as undisputable fact.

I guess I'll leave it at that because in all likelihood this was meant to garner reaction more than anything.

[Serapy]

His raising maturity from age 5 to age 8 still didn't leave him any more manly than he was in the beginning. You could seriously tie a great big bow to his head and the impact of his character design would be the same.

He seemed unique compared to other FF characters though.

[Roto13]

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i27/rotothirteen/tidus-01.jpg

xP

[CimminyCricket]

xD

[Moon Rabbits]

I am expecting Final Fantasy XIII to out do them all, as I always do. There is no doubt in my mind this one will be better than XII. Although XII is my least favorite, I don't think it is a bad game. It is just my thirteen favorite. Personally I would love to see future installments that are closer to VI than they are to XII.

How can FFXII be you're thirteenth favourite? You're placing XIII before it? You've not even played it :| Unless you're including X-2 or something ...


His raising maturity from age 5 to age 8 still didn't leave him any more manly than he was in the beginning. You could seriously tie a great big bow to his head and the impact of his character design would be the same.

Indeed.



The fact that so many people love Tidus and at the same time a lot of people hate him means that he is a succesful character creation...
When a character really fails is when noone cares about him/her (FFXII).

I don't know what you're talking about here. FFXII was the only Final Fantasy (with the exception of V) in which I actually cared about every playable character (and moreover, the guest characters Reddas :(!) as opposed to the others, where there was always at least one character I had no feelings for (Palom/Porom, Setzer/Gau/Mash, Barrett/Yuffie/Vincent, Irvine/Zell, Steiner/Amarant/Quina, Tidus/Kimhari). If any of those characters had died in the process of my saving the world I would not have cared. Even Palom / Porom turning themselves to stone didn't really bother me all that much.



His raising maturity from age 5 to age 8 still didn't leave him any more manly than he was in the beginning. You could seriously tie a great big bow to his head and the impact of his character design would be the same.

He seemed unique compared to other FF characters though.

Unique is not the first word that came to mind when I met Tidus in FFX. Although it was when I met Balthier, Fran, Penelo, Ashe, Basch, and even Vaan. In fact, unique is just a good word to describe FFXII.

If it isn't apparent by now, I very much enjoy FFXII and agree with the original poster.

[Northcrest]

I like the FFXII idea . The way u could run from battles I'm all for it. I like how everything was like. I'm pretty much okay with what they put as long as the game can out do FFX or FFVII unlike the other ones.

[Mr Cactuar]

The fact that so many people love Tidus and at the same time a lot of people hate him means that he is a succesful character creation...
When a character really fails is when noone cares about him/her (FFXII).

I don't know what you're talking about here. FFXII was the only Final Fantasy (with the exception of V) in which I actually cared about every playable character (and moreover, the guest characters Reddas :(!) as opposed to the others, where there was always at least one character I had no feelings for (Palom/Porom, Setzer/Gau/Mash, Barrett/Yuffie/Vincent, Irvine/Zell, Steiner/Amarant/Quina, Tidus/Kimhari). If any of those characters had died in the process of my saving the world I would not have cared. Even Palom / Porom turning themselves to stone didn't really bother me all that much.



His raising maturity from age 5 to age 8 still didn't leave him any more manly than he was in the beginning. You could seriously tie a great big bow to his head and the impact of his character design would be the same.

He seemed unique compared to other FF characters though.

Unique is not the first word that came to mind when I met Tidus in FFX. Although it was when I met Balthier, Fran, Penelo, Ashe, Basch, and even Vaan. In fact, unique is just a good word to describe FFXII.

If it isn't apparent by now, I very much enjoy FFXII and agree with the original poster.

If you're really trying to say that you care for Penelo or Vaan, you must like your characters bland and useless.

Balthier and maybe Basche were the only interesting characters in the party. People who say they love Fran are just kidding themselves, she has little backstory that's revealed and little to do with the way the game actually lays out. Ashe was just plain annoying, despite having a sweet ass xD

[Roto13]

Yeah, they don't really like Fran, they just think they do. Their opinions can't possibly conflict with yours. :rolleyes2

Now you're just being dumb.

[Mr Cactuar]

Yeah, they don't really like Fran, they just think they do. Their opinions can't possibly conflict with yours. :rolleyes2

Now you're just being dumb.

I'd agree, if Fran had any real character, which she doesn't. I just see her as a filler.

They probably only like her because of her ears or thong. Or both.

[Roto13]

I think Furries are creepy and even I like Fran. People like her because she's so calm and cool almost all the time. (And because when she's not calm and cool, she's kicking guards in the face.)

Also, don't state your opinion as fact. It crosses a line between trying to prove your point and just being an asshole.

[Ashley Schovitz]

Nomura sucks. Hard.

"Hmm, how am I going to make this main character stand out? I know! I'll make him really effeminate! And give him way too many belts! And a necklace we can make real-life replicas of and sell for hundreds of dollars! I'VE NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE EVER!"

Yeah I'm getting tired of Nomura's designs lately they need to change up and maybe go back to whoever did IX's and from VI to below. I didn't really like the guy who did XII's either because the first time I saw the cast I immediately noticed how everybody's eyes are the same. The differences are only in the hair and head structures.

[Serapy]

I think Furries are creepy and even I like Fran. People like her because she's so calm and cool almost all the time. (And because when she's not calm and cool, she's kicking guards in the face.)

Also, don't state your opinion as fact. It crosses a line between trying to prove your point and just being an asshole.

QFT!

[Moon Rabbits]

Nomura sucks. Hard.

"Hmm, how am I going to make this main character stand out? I know! I'll make him really effeminate! And give him way too many belts! And a necklace we can make real-life replicas of and sell for hundreds of dollars! I'VE NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE EVER!"

Yeah I'm getting tired of Nomura's designs lately they need to change up and maybe go back to whoever did IX's and from VI to below. I didn't really like the guy who did XII's either because the first time I saw the cast I immediately noticed how everybody's eyes are the same. The differences are only in the hair and head structures.

Amano did VI and before, I think? I don't really know character designers all that well with the exception of Nomura ... just because his style is so distinct (repeated).

According to wikipedia, IX's characters were designed by one Shuko Murase.

Anyways, VI and XII have had the strongest casts, in my opinion.

As for Mr. Cactuar's response to my post, yes, I cared for Vaan and Penelo. They're not the most amazing characters ever created for a videogame, but that doesn't change the fact that I still wanted both of them to make it to the end of the game.

[Woodinator]

If I want in depth, (debatably) well thought out, technical music I'll go and see what Dream Theater are doing nowadays.

You have Van Gogh's ear for music.


Alright, just because one doesn't look for complex orchestral pieces in a VIDEO GAME, doesn't mean they have no ear for music. I consider myself a fan (of sorts) of classical music (Heck, I've played the stuff for, oh, 8 years now), and I'm actually impressed with the "water-downed opera" in the trailer. Try looking at progression, rather than just expecting a masterpiece outright. Sorry if this metaphor seems out of place, but a young painter doesn't immediatly paint the Mona Lisa.

Also, for when you praised the score of FFXII, there is really only one song that stands out to me from the whole soundtrack and that is Clash of Swords, whereas in the other tunes countless remain locked in my head, for I still find myself whistling these tunes randomly (some of which I haven't even listend to in years)

This is off-topic, but reading you're "rebuttals" reminds me of something I learned in a class my senior year of high school. Something called an illogical fallacy, where one counters criticism by attacking petty "faults" of the other. Seriously, you need to learn how to make an arguement. An "enriched vocabulary" doesn't take the place of support for your claims (Seriously, who responds by critisizing somone's grammar on an internet forum, where it's not considered important. Oh, and I'm aware that this reply is probably riddled with grammatical errors).

[EagleDelta1]

[quote=lovedovey;2387291]
Also, for when you praised the score of FFXII, there is really only one song that stands out to me from the whole soundtrack and that is Clash of Swords, whereas in the other tunes countless remain locked in my head, for I still find myself whistling these tunes randomly (some of which I haven't even listend to in years)

What about Symphonic Poem "Hope" from the Credits?
That's one of my favorite pieces of FF music.

[Gnostic Yevon]

I liked FFXII, mostly for the gameplay aspect.

You didn't go straight down the end of the corridor, there were usually three or four choices of where to go. In the post SNES games, you had maybe a few choices every once in a while -- but most of the time it was a straight line quest. The hard parts of FFXII were often monsters (as in most RPGs), but what impressed me was the puzzling aspect of the level design. You had to solve all sorts of in game puzzles -- and they were all different. In FFX all the puzzles were sphere moving puzzles, and that was all. In FFXII, you moved statues, flipped switches, defeated power-sucking monsters, and so on.

The storyline was fair enough, but if that storyline had been attched to a yellow brick road gameplay design, I don't think I'd have been able to finish it. While the politics were interesting, the characters were about as developed as cardboard cutouts. They start out one way, and low and behold, they never waver. Vaan wants to free Dalmaska, Pennelo is around because Vaan is teh hawt. Balthier starts out and remains as Han Solo, while Fran follows him around like a lost puppy. I never cared about the characters. Quite frankly, I stayed for the gameplay, not because I was impressed by the characters or the plot.

The battle system was OK, but I would have liked it better if there was more need to change things in game. Once I set my gambits, I never really needed to worry about them. Every once in a while the boss battle would require me to switch things up, but most of the time, if I'm sufficiently levelled, I don't need to worry about Gambits. The other weakness was that the game design vertually forces players to make all characters fairly similar -- a BM type character just won't work, nor will a tank -- they all need to be able to use attack magic, defence magic, and swing a mean sword.

The artwork was good, but I don't see a huge difference between XII and X/X-2.

[Croyles]

I wouldnt even call FFXII that mature, it gives the illusion of being mature. While the war story was good, the characters were completely bland and featured no development whatsoever!
The dialoge was good, the war story was good, if sometimes a bit too confusing. It was sometimes also a bit like, so whos on whos side now? It tried to be too mature I reckon.

But thanks for making me feel like a chav or just generally common/mediocre for being excited about FFXIII :thumb:

[Sword]

After I saw the newly released FFXIII ( Gametrailers.com - Final Fantasy XIII - Dengeki Special Edition Trailer (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/29007.html) ) and FFVersusXIII ( Gametrailers.com - Final Fantasy Versus XIII - Dengeki Special Edition Trailer (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/29006.html) ) trailers, I was at once excited and disappointed. It's a progression of FF into the next gen but in a greater sense it remains a regression when compared to FFXII.

Matsuno Yasuno's FFXII is when Final Fantasy grew up--boldly evident in it's art direction, but most conspicuously in it's narrative. It was a narrative flushed with florid, even occasionally literate, dialogue, a story arc concerned with political intrigue and worldly repercussions rather than the vanity of a girl-boy-girl love triangle, and a manner of characterization and direction that placed greater value in nuances of expressiveness rather than the gauche, teenage bravado and superficiality of Tidus, Cloud, Squall, or any of their similar spawn. A Final Fantasy without Matsuno (FF Tactics, Vagrant Story, or FFXII) is akin to a Jerry Bruckheimer production but with a Dawson's Creek ethos slathered in, very thickly.

While FFXII eschewed the teenage melodrama and ungainly storytelling of recent and past Final Fantasies, it also melded the best in western and Japanese RPGs and did away with long outmoded mainstays and annoyances in both: no more random battles or time wasting end-battle EXP/gil summary screens; seamless integration of exploration and battle modes creating an amplified sense of immersion; a choice to micro- or macro-manage battles allowing for leisurely or frantic fighting via the Gambit system; the creative synthesis of single player RPG and MMORPG mechanics; a 3D camera control allowing for full view of Ivalice's grandeur, again adding to the immense sense of immersion; a strong female lead (Ashe is inarguably the lead) who is neither feeble nor whiny nor a submissive stereotype; locales (especially the metropolises) that felt alive with the denizens and not a static contrivance of NPCs. The innovations, evolution, and discarded conventions are considerable. FFXII is not without its faults, even though it's one of only six games to get a perfect rating in Famitsu (not that Famitsu still holds value for everyone), but it does represent the first time Final Fantasy can be considered entertainment for more than mostly kids and teenagers. Along with games like FF Tactics, Ico, Bioshock, and Half Life 2, FFXII is one of those rare times where a video game has a story to tell that won't make you blush too much. It's not on par with finer cinema or literature, very far from it, but at least it displays an ambition to get there someday.

(And here's a decent summation by 1Up's Jeremy Parish of why FFXII "is easily the best in the series": Toastyfrog.com: Compendium of Useless Information : Games - Final Fantasy XII browse (http://www.toastyfrog.com/toastywiki/index.php/Games/FinalFantasyXII) )

Those who dislike FFXII are likely to enjoy FFXIII. It's a return to the maturity level before Matsuo came in; a return to the cliches of a vapid but sullen hero with an elemental name (Lightning meet Cloud) and a farcically huge sword, zippered sportswear and asexual garments, and--because of the staff involved--a story that might rival FF7-10 in it's attempt to perfectly mirror a Ben Affleck summer blockbuster with inconsequential love interest and inconsequential ass kicking of inconsequential baddies who are equally as vapid as the hero and his love interest.

And yet inspite all that, I am completely hyped for FFXIII. FFXII's art director, Kamikokuyrou Isamu, is XIII's art director and as the trailer's have revealed, Isamu's breathtaking baroque aesthetic seems to have tempered the plastic, futuristic-sacharinity and over-simplicity of everything that Nomura Tetsuya touches--ostensibly the character designs are still very Nomura. The worlds the trailer briefly unveils looks like something I wish to immerse myself in. The music sounds as captivating, though not as ornate, as Sakimoto's FFXII score. So while my expectations for the direction, story, dialogue, and voice acting remain low, the art direction, music, and gameplay adequately retains my considerable interest and excitement.

As for FFVersusXIII, the music in the trailer while competent does sound a bit like a poor man's opera--watered down for an audience that doesn't know of Bellini or Puccini. The game itself looks dreadfully Nomura. If FFXII is an indictment of the maturity level of previous Final Fantasies and FFXIII a tearing down of the maturity level FFXII had achieved, FFVersusXIII looks to abolish all adult ambitions by winning the hearts of the demographic not quite old enough to get a driver's license--or those who enjoyed Kingdom Hearts. I don't know if I have the patience for a main character more sullen than a Prozac-popper on Medicare and so exceedingly self-absorbed he wears all black cause he thinks it's slimming.
I think it's a bit early to be saying ANY of that.

Yes FFXII was a good game but there was absolute zero character development and character relationships were all over the place. One example of this would be at the end when Ashe shouts "BALTHIER!". I mean there was no need to make it THAT dramatic considering they only talked to each other like twice during the entire game.

For me the return to the Nomura designs is a welcome change, and let's be honest the older games had a more epic feel to them, so if FFXIII is going with that approach then good show.