Good angel?

[Future Esthar]

First time we see our characters being absorbed into time in Ulti´s time we think"This little angel is evil and is collaborating with Ulti"
But then we realize that it´s wings are white.
Is the angel helping our characters?
Note that a Game Over cannot be achieved with the angel.
I wonder.

[Aerith's Knight]

what angel?

[MJN SEIFER]

what angel?

If a character dies in an Ultimecia battle, and you take too long to revive them, an angel appears, does something, and that character is "lost in time".


I don't think the angel's helping the good guys. Angel's are often portrayed as "tools of evil" in FF games; In FFVII, Sephiroth uses the "Heartless Angel" which seriously injures your team, for example.

[Aerith's Knight]

ow that guy... i usually dont lose a member in that fight..

yeah.. doesnt seemvery friendly to me

[Serapy]

As I've stated this in my other thread.

Storywise, the white angel was part of Ulti's plan. Ulti doesn't want Squall/his party to die. If they died, then there's no way for Ulti to die because she's so desperate to give up her powers. That's why the angel is there.

The whole plan was for Ulti to die so she can give up powers. She included Squall and his party in the plan. She lurked them into seeing her at the end, because she knew that they can kill her, pretty cool, eh?

[Captain Maxx Power]

This thread can only get awesomer. I wanna hear more!

[Aerith's Knight]

wtf?.. that is the biggest load i ever heard

what evil end boss wants to die?

[Raebus]

I think this theory is really interesting.

Haha, AK's at it again. This is going to be fun.

[BG-57]

Most of the 'good angel' motif applies to Rinoa. The wings on the back of her outfit, the Angel Wing limit break. Heck, even her dog is named Angelo.

As for the final battle, I've lost characters into time, but I don't recall angels. Do you have a screenshot?

[Aerith's Knight]

the angels are shown if a character dies and isnt revived.. happened the first time i played it.

Raebus you have to agree with me.. it just sounds as stupid as possible. there is no evidence for it at all

[Serapy]

Anyway, nobody wants to last forever, including her. She has lived for a long time. It won't work if she commits suicide, that's why she needed the help from Squall. This implication wasn't used in this game, because if it was used, Squall would be given fewer chance of killing herself, he just runs away, becoming more emotional or whatever.


Most of the 'good angel' motif applies to Rinoa. The wings on the back of her outfit, the Angel Wing limit break. Heck, even her dog is named Angelo.


That's flawed though, if Rinoa dies on the ground, the angel still revives the others. I have another theory on this one as well. That Rinoa may be part of the Ulti's plan also (Ulti giving her powers to Rinoa), because I believe U=R, not R=U ;)

Yes, sometimes angels don't show up but I think that's because Ulti was getting badly hurt off and on at a time.

[Raebus]

the angels are shown if a character dies and isnt revived.. happened the first time i played it.

Raebus you have to agree with me.. it just sounds as stupid as possible. there is no evidence for it at all

It might not make sense but it does sound very interesting, I'm not shooting it down for that reason.

[Serapy]

Raebus you have to agree with me.. it just sounds as stupid as possible. there is no evidence for it at all

Then what do you think caused those angels to co-exist? And why. :p

[BG-57]

the angels are shown if a character dies and isnt revived.. happened the first time i played it.

It has been a while since I last played. I guess I didn't find them memorable.


Anyway, nobody wants to last forever, including her. She has lived for a long time. It won't work if she commits suicide, that's why she needed the help from Squall. This implication wasn't used in this game, because if it was used, Squall would be given fewer chance of killing herself, he just runs away, becoming more emotional or whatever.

I didn't see any in-game evidence to support this.


That's flawed though, if Rinoa dies on the ground, the angel still revives the others. I have another theory on this one as well. That Rinoa may be part of the Ulti's plan also (Ulti giving her powers to Rinoa), because I believe U=R, not R=U ;)

Yes, sometimes angels don't show up but I think that's because Ulti was getting badly hurt off and on at a time.

I'm not sure if the angels are connected to Rinoa per se, but the makers sure wanted us to associate Rinoa with angels.

U=R? Oy gevalt. :eep:

[Serapy]

Edea knew that she wanted to give up her powers, she told Squall that.

Then why does this dialog
"in order to die, you need to give up your powers, getting killed, praying, blah blah...." exist? I mean, if special people want to last forever, then this dialog would have never existed.

[blackmage_nuke]

I never thought that angel was evil. I thought it would take the members to a safe place for healing, thats why theyre all fine and dandy in the ending

[BG-57]

Edea knew that she wanted to give up her powers, she told Squall that.

Then why does this dialog
"in order to die, you need to give up your powers, getting killed, praying, blah blah...." exist? I mean, if special people want to last forever, then this dialog would have never existed.

You mean this dialogue?


[The screen fades into the lighthouse orphanage, intact because it
is in the past.]

Edea: "Squall!"

Squall: (...Matron.)

Edea: "Excuse me. Have you seen a little boy?"

Squall: "You don't have to worry. The boy won't go anywhere."

Edea: "I think so, too. Poor thing..."

[A fatally-wounded Ultimecia appears, and staggers towards the two.]

Squall: "...You're alive!?"

Edea: "...The sorceress?"

Squall: "Yes, Matron. We had defeated her... Matron, stand back."

Edea: "It's ok. There's no more need to fight. That sorceress is just
looking for someone to pass her powers on to. In order to die in
peace, a sorceress must be free of all her powers. I know...for
I am one, too. I shall take that sorceress' powers. I don't
want one of the children to become one.

Ultimecia: "I...can't...disappear yet."

[Ultimecia passes her powers onto Edea and dies, sinking away.]

Ultimecia doesn't sound suicidal here. She even denies her impending demise. And this business occurs after she is defeated and badly wounded.

It seems more likely that she went into the battle intending to become all powerful. Her actions certainly suggest this course of action.

[Future Esthar]

In Winhill it is said that Ellone was in a festival and they liked seing her prancing like an angel.Squaresoft didn´t create this dialogue at random.
It is to show that the angel which appears at Ulti´s time is Ellone.
This angel looks like a fairy over our characters,a concept associated with Ellone.
And I also believe it to be Rinoa.
This confirms my Rinoa=Ellone theory.
Also following this logic it´s easy to see that Julia=Ultimecia as I argued previously using other arguments.
So basically this battle is a "evil witch versus magus with the help of good faeries"fight.

[Raebus]

Whilst I don't believe much of this, its interesting!

[Serapy]

Edea knew that she wanted to give up her powers, she told Squall that.

Then why does this dialog
"in order to die, you need to give up your powers, getting killed, praying, blah blah...." exist? I mean, if special people want to last forever, then this dialog would have never existed.

You mean this dialogue?


[The screen fades into the lighthouse orphanage, intact because it
is in the past.]

Edea: "Squall!"

Squall: (...Matron.)

Edea: "Excuse me. Have you seen a little boy?"

Squall: "You don't have to worry. The boy won't go anywhere."

Edea: "I think so, too. Poor thing..."

[A fatally-wounded Ultimecia appears, and staggers towards the two.]

Squall: "...You're alive!?"

Edea: "...The sorceress?"

Squall: "Yes, Matron. We had defeated her... Matron, stand back."

Edea: "It's ok. There's no more need to fight. That sorceress is just
looking for someone to pass her powers on to. In order to die in
peace, a sorceress must be free of all her powers. I know...for
I am one, too. I shall take that sorceress' powers. I don't
want one of the children to become one.

Ultimecia: "I...can't...disappear yet."

[Ultimecia passes her powers onto Edea and dies, sinking away.]

Ultimecia doesn't sound suicidal here. She even denies her impending demise. And this business occurs after she is defeated and badly wounded.

It seems more likely that she went into the battle intending to become all powerful. Her actions certainly suggest this course of action.

My point is that if the dialog exists , then it implies that those special people don't want to last forever.

and Ultimecia saying she doesn't want to disappear, this doesn't prove whether she wants to last forever. Maybe she wanted to tell something but it was too late.

[BG-57]

But your argument seems to be that she wants to be defeated. If that's true, her actions belie her intentions. If anything she's trying her hardest to kill Squall and his allies without pulling any punches. She fights her own destruction tooth and nail.

And in any event her goal seems to be omnipotence as opposed to immortality. Although compressing time might fufill the second item, what she really seems to be after is power.

EDIT: And I know longevity of sorceresses is a big issue for U=R theorists because Rinoa cannot become Ultimecia if she has a normal lifespan. I believe the FFVIII Ultimania laid that possibility to rest by stating that sorceresses have normal lifespans.

[Serapy]

Then explain why is the little golden angel helping the party? That's why it sums up my theory.

And I think traveling though time by yourself won't affect your age, but also if you have became Ulti, your appearance will change to somewhat evil or younger, I guess.

As for R=U, it's hard to tell when exactly Rinoa becomes the next Ulti after the end of the game, probably not that long.

[The Last Oath]

The little golden angel is Ellone as FE said.. Ellone is able to see what is happening when she sends people into the past/future, thats why she sent squall into laguna's time so she could see laguna.

As for Ulti... if she wanted to be killed the game would have ended after u defeated her first form, she wouldnt have summonend greiver to destroy you hence FUSING with him. AND she wouldnt have revealed her true form, she would have kept that until she DIDNt want to die which is when squall and the gang bashed her. ulti didnt want to die so that she could achieve a full time compressoin

[BG-57]

Then explain why is the little golden angel helping the party? That's why it sums up my theory.

And I think traveling though time by yourself won't affect your age, but also if you have became Ulti, your appearance will change to somewhat evil or younger, I guess.

As for R=U, it's hard to tell when exactly Rinoa becomes the next Ulti after the end of the game, probably not that long.

Sure thing. This just occured to me as well:

The angels could be a gameplay element, not a plot element. In some previous FFs Life/Revive magic is represented by a cherub that appears over the fallen character and brings them back. Also there are uncontrollable gameplay elements like the Tapir in FFVI that randomly appears and wakes up sleeping characters (in mythology tapirs devour nightmares). It might just be there to let the player know that even if characters fall out of the party they will be safe and sound by the game's end.

Ultimecia doesn't appear to be from the near future though. On the one hand I can see the appeal for U=R, since Ultimecia is a poorly written character with an underdeveloped background. Also it adds a tragic dimension to the game. But it's just too implausible. It hinges on too many what if's and unlikely events strung together. Possible is not the same as likely.

Historically when the makers want us to connect two characters as being related they would be a lot more direct in the hints. Look at Relm's father. Or Squall's. They practically tell us in those cases.


The little golden angel is Ellone as FE said.. Ellone is able to see what is happening when she sends people into the past/future, thats why she sent squall into laguna's time so she could see laguna.

It's possible, but I don't quite see it.


As for Ulti... if she wanted to be killed the game would have ended after u defeated her first form, she wouldnt have summonend greiver to destroy you hence FUSING with him. AND she wouldnt have revealed her true form, she would have kept that until she DIDNt want to die which is when squall and the gang bashed her. ulti didnt want to die so that she could achieve a full time compressoin

Agreed.

[Serapy]

The angels could be a gameplay element, not a plot element. In some previous FFs Life/Revive magic is represented by a cherub that appears over the fallen character and brings them back. Also there are uncontrollable gameplay elements like the Tapir in FFVI that randomly appears and wakes up sleeping characters (in mythology tapirs devour nightmares). It might just be there to let the player know that even if characters fall out of the party they will be safe and sound by the game's end.

There's no reason for Square to put an angel in the game play, because the battles of Ulti were so EASY, even without the help of angels >.> There has to be a reason why it was invented.

[Roogle]

The angels could be a gameplay element, not a plot element. In some previous FFs Life/Revive magic is represented by a cherub that appears over the fallen character and brings them back. Also there are uncontrollable gameplay elements like the Tapir in FFVI that randomly appears and wakes up sleeping characters (in mythology tapirs devour nightmares). It might just be there to let the player know that even if characters fall out of the party they will be safe and sound by the game's end.

There's no reason for Square to put an angel in the game play, because the battles of Ulti were so EASY, even without the help of angels >.> There has to be a reason why it was invented.

I do not think that the final battle of Final Fantasy VIII was easy because I did not understand the junctioning system when I finished the game.

Anyway, I think that the whole motif was designed for gameplay reasons of allowing a player to utilize all of his characters for the final series of battles. Final Fantasy VI invoked a similar concept — if a party member was knocked out upon the destruction of a part of the final boss, he would be replaced during the transition to the next battle. It was a way of ensuring that multiple characters could be used and that it may not necessarily be a bad thing to build all characters evenly instead of focusing on a core few.

[Serapy]

Well, I believe that some help is mixed with plot/gameplay, but usually plot related.

But the norm of adding little help to the final battles just to make the game play easier isn't really justified (if it's only gameplay related).
I thought FF games weren't supposed to be that easy? Unless it's plot related then that would be fully justified.

Now, look at some other FF with the similar help:

FF7 : At the end of the battle, you automatically set to the last limit break, Omnislash. There's like 90% chance for Sephy not to kill you, because of what reason? It's because when Sephy was being weakened, Cloud automatically uses Omnislash on him, so it's plot related. There's another proof: You see Cloud using Omnislash on Sephy in the end of FF7:AC. Again, he used it because Sephy was almost dying, therefore it's plot related.

FFX : There's also the help of an angel, reviving one of your characters. For what reason? It's because YY only wanted to fight against aeons, not the characters. You won't die, so it's plot related.

Any other FF that have the smiliar help? I never played the other FF games.

Understand what I mean?
Ok, let's go back to the FF8 angel. Future Esthar, what you said is interesting.
Why? You know Ellone, Squall asked her to find Rinoa in the Space as Ellone wanted to help him. So it may be plausible that Ellone also wanted to help Squall/the party at the end of the battle, with the help by the angel. But I still stand by my theory.

[Future Esthar]

It´s not a gameplay element.
Say for example if you are playing a beat-em-up game (like Street Fighter) and you can fight with more than one character do angels appear when each one dies before the other enters?Of course not.Characters have legs to walk and can push dead bodies away(in the game it is shown as disappearing).
Tekken team mode is a good example of this.

[BG-57]

But it makes no difference whether the characters can see the tapir or the Life/Revive cherubs or not. The effect is the same either way. My idea is that symbolism of the angels are for the player's benefit. A sort of visual shorthand that most players would recognize.

If they have additional meaning beyond that, I do not know. But there's no need for them to.

[Future Esthar]

I remember the Life 3 ability of FF6?Is something like this you are talking?

[BG-57]

Yep.

[Serapy]

But it makes no difference whether the characters can see the tapir or the Life/Revive cherubs or not. The effect is the same either way. My idea is that symbolism of the angels are for the player's benefit. A sort of visual shorthand that most players would recognize.

If they have additional meaning beyond that, I do not know. But there's no need for them to.

That's true, the *helping* angel has the same effect as the original revive spell BUT it's what the graphic of the content counts. The graphic image of the *helping* angel looks absolutely different than the image of the original revive spell, therefore it's supposed to imply something differently, despite of the same effect. Also, your whole characters don't control that angel, someone else did. Therefore it's not supposed to be a gameplay element.

[Future Esthar]

But it is not a gameplay element because of this


In Winhill it is said that Ellone was in a festival and they liked seing her prancing like an angel.Squaresoft didn´t create this dialogue at random.
It is to show that the angel which appears at Ulti´s time is Ellone.


And the fairy thing.

Since these concepts didn´t appear anywhere else on the game it must point to the angel.It must point to something or it would be a pointless monologue.

[BG-57]

That's true, the *helping* angel has the same effect as the original revive spell BUT it's what the graphic of the content counts. The graphic image of the *helping* angel looks absolutely different than the image of the original revive spell, therefore it's supposed to imply something differently, despite of the same effect. Also, your whole characters don't control that angel, someone else did. Therefore it's not supposed to be a gameplay element.

Which is why I mentioned the tapir. That's an uncontrollable gameplay element. And FFVIII Shiva looks different from FFVI Shiva. Aren't they the same entity despite that?


But it is not a gameplay element because of this


In Winhill it is said that Ellone was in a festival and they liked seing her prancing like an angel.Squaresoft didn´t create this dialogue at random.
It is to show that the angel which appears at Ulti´s time is Ellone.


And the fairy thing.

Since these concepts didn´t appear anywhere else on the game it must point to the angel.It must point to something or it would be a pointless monologue.

That's one of many possible interpretations. While most that appears in a video game is deliberately planned, not everything has additional, deeper layers of meaning. Some statements should be taken at face value. Or as Sigmund Freud once supposedly said: 'Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.'

[Future Esthar]

Let´s SUPPOSE then it has meaning.Let´s see if we can find more secrets with this hypothesis.

[Serapy]

Which is why I mentioned the tapir. That's an uncontrollable gameplay element. And FFVIII Shiva looks different from FFVI Shiva. Aren't they the same entity despite that?

Yes, because two of those Shivas (what you've just stated) are based on GF, they both have the same objective = same entity, you can even control them. The only reason why they look different is because they came from different FF games.
The help from that angel is entirely different.

Try to compare from the other FF little helpies for the final battles to the angel in the final battle of FF8. So generally, it has to be plot-related.

[BG-57]

Let´s SUPPOSE then it has meaning.Let´s see if we can find more secrets with this hypothesis.

Speculate away. It's not like I'm stopping you.


Yes, because two of those Shivas (what you've just stated) are based on GF, they both have the same objective = same entity, you can even control them. The only reason why they look different is because they came from different FF games.
The help from that angel is entirely different.

My point is just because angels look different from game to doesn't mean they're not the same thing. As you said, each game has a different design and look, so they're naturally going to vary in appearance.


Try to compare from the other FF little helpies for the final battles to the angel in the final battle of FF8. So generally, it has to be plot-related.

Of course they may serve a purpose beyond just gameplay, but I don't see why they have to.

[Future Esthar]

I am just saying for you not to forget this theory.

[Serapy]

My point is just because angels look different from game to doesn't mean they're not the same thing. As you said, each game has a different design and look, so they're naturally going to vary in appearance.

What? I was talking about Shivas, they are the same thing no matter what they look like, each Shiva (same objective) in each FF is even controllable. This angel matter is different because it has two same effects: the original revive spell and the angel (uncontrollable) are from the same game , but they do look different therefore different reason.


Of course they may serve a purpose beyond just gameplay, but I don't see why they have to.

Actually, putting little helpies just to make gameplay (not plot related) easier doesn't make more sense. Like what I said, FF games weren't supposed to be that easy.

[BG-57]

I am just saying for you not to forget this theory.

No worries, your theories are very memorable.


What? I was talking about Shivas, they are the same thing no matter what they look like, each Shiva (same objective) in each FF is even controllable. This angel matter is different because it has two same effects: the original revive spell and the angel (uncontrollable) are from the same game , but they do look different therefore different reason.

Sounds like we agree on Shiva then. I was thinking of different games with reviving angels actually: FFVI and FFVIII. I'm bringing up other games than FFVIII to illustrate how my idea has precedents in previous installments.


Actually, putting little helpies just to make gameplay (not plot related) easier doesn't make more sense. Like what I said, FF games weren't supposed to be that easy.

Both our ideas can explain the events in the endgame but I generally prefer simple explanations to complicated ones.

[Big D]

And I also believe it to be Rinoa.
This confirms my Rinoa=Ellone theory.In Final Fantasy VII, before Jenova is removed from the Mount Nibel Reactor, she is stored in a device that has an angel's face and wings on it. This confirms that Jenova is Ultimecia.
This theory is something I came up with a few years ago, in response to the many other nonsense theories. Let's look at the evidence again:

* Jenova can travel between worlds. FFVII and VIII take place on different worlds

* Jenova and Ultimecia both have phenomenal magical power

* Both appear to be female

* Both have long silver hair

* Both have inhuman eyes, sometimes with a red glow

* Jenova can change her appearance. Since Jenova and Ultimecia look differerent, this supports the view that they are the same entity using a slightly different form

* Both crave absolute power

* Jenova fought the Cetra by appearing in different forms, to deceive them and influence them. Ultimecia took over Edea, using Edea's form to deceive and influence Galbadia. Similar methodology

* Ultimecia took Seifer as a knight, empowering him to defend her. Jenova's power exists in Sephiroth, the greatest warrior ('knight') of FFVII. Both male minions are devoted to fulfilling their mistress' wishes. Again, the methods are very similar

There we have it, folks - by assessing evidence from each game, it can be concluded that Jenova and Ultimecia are, in fact, the same person. The only remaining issue is which came first, chronologically:D

[Future Esthar]

ff7 and ff8 are tottaly different games(at least theorically)
Evidence defeated.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Ultimecia is Ultimecia. Thread defeated.