Proof Rinoa is Seed.

[Future Esthar]

Ulti repeat the word Seed six times on the beggining of her speech.
It is as if she was talking to each one of the characters treating them by their speciality.

[Serapy]

When Squall or others talk about SeeD, Rinoa acted like nothing happened.. If she wasn't SeeD, she would be curious to find out what SeeD means or whatever.

[Rantz]

The evidence is overwhelming ;)

[Future Esthar]

She is more Seed than the other characters.She even knows how to dance that party dance.

[Goldenboko]

She is more Seed than the other characters.She even knows how to dance that party dance.

Did it not occur to you that perhaps they where doing a dance that is well known within the game? If I saw some troops doing the robot, I won't assume that in order to do the robot you need to be a troop.

Ulti thinking they are all SeeD could just prove she doesn't know who exactly are coming after her. She assumes that it will be SeeD that will kill her, so she assumes everyone in front of her are SeeD.

[Tallulah]

I think Ultimecia's repetition of 'SeeD' is basically her mocking them, that's all, not addressing them personally. Remember that technically, Irvine is not a SeeD either, as he has not done any training with the GFs, and has retained his memories of the orphanage.

[rubah]

GF training was a specialty of Balamb Garden, neither of the other gardens did so much with them.

I don't remember if Irvine had done his examination, but he was SeeD enough for galbadia garden to assign him a mission

[Aerith's Knight]

she is SEED from PSU.. shes an evil alien with plant like marks

[Serapy]

she is SEED from PSU.. shes an evil alien with plant like marks

Another pointless post.


GF training was a specialty of Balamb Garden, neither of the other gardens did so much with them.

I don't remember if Irvine had done his examination, but he was SeeD enough for galbadia garden to assign him a mission

Yeah, he was a SeeD. You see him at the garden for the first time, that pretty much implies that he was trained at the garden or at least I think.


I think Ultimecia's repetition of 'SeeD' is basically her mocking them, that's all, not addressing them personally. Remember that technically, Irvine is not a SeeD either, as he has not done any training with the GFs, and has retained his memories of the orphanage.

I have assigned GFs onto Irvine, so I don't think that was the case :/ but I think he was lucky to remember the oprange events or maybe Ulti didn't make him forget properly.

[Aerith's Knight]

you can keep saying that i make useless posts.. but every theory posted in the last week is nothing more then SPAM!

if you even believed one of them id give you 100 bucks.. but you dont, or youd have the same IQ as a fried fishstick.

now this was a useless post

[Avarice-ness]

GF training was a specialty of Balamb Garden, neither of the other gardens did so much with them.

I don't remember if Irvine had done his examination, but he was SeeD enough for galbadia garden to assign him a mission

Yeah, he was a SeeD. You see him at the garden for the first time, that pretty much implies that he was trained at the garden or at least I think.

Well.. I started in the game in the garden but I definantly wasn't a SeeD. I'm replaying anyways so I'll see if he mentions anything about being a SeeD.



I think Ultimecia's repetition of 'SeeD' is basically her mocking them, that's all, not addressing them personally. Remember that technically, Irvine is not a SeeD either, as he has not done any training with the GFs, and has retained his memories of the orphanage.

I have assigned GFs onto Irvine, so I don't think that was the case :/ but I think he was lucky to remember the oprange events or maybe Ulti didn't make him forget properly.


You can assign GF's onto him because if you couldn't give him any GF's he would have no buff's via junctioning, thus making him the most useless character in the history of video games.

I can assign GF's to rinoa and we don't even know if she's SeeD, hence this theory thread.

Not to mention, I just restarted the game and Quistis gave me two GF's. I'm still a student as squall, but I can clearly use them while not being under the title of SeeD.

Also, if rinoa was a SeeD wouldn't that screw with the R=U theory because in terms a "SeeD" killed Ulti, so it'd be kind of hypocrittical for her to hate SeeD's when she herself was one in her past form, not to mention it's never stated what SeeD's killed her.

[rubah]

Of course rinoa's not a SeeD; she's never been trained in the least. That's why she' snot allowed to help in the sorceress assassination and that's why she gets all morose at trabia garden. She doesn't know the salute (does irvine even? I don't remember; tell us if you get there avara), she remarks how ready for battle everyone else besides her is, she feels left behind because she's not like them.

[Roto13]

Ulti repeat the word Seed six times on the beggining of her speech.
It is as if she was talking to each one of the characters treating them by their speciality.

No it's not. It's like she's having a temper tantrum. That's not proof. That's not even evidence.

[Serapy]

You can assign GF's onto him because if you couldn't give him any GF's he would have no buff's via junctioning, thus making him the most useless character in the history of video games.

Yes, so? I was implying that if Irvine can remember the events, then the others can remember as well. This forgotten thing is created by Ulti. So I dont think it has to do with SeeDs, just the the power from Ulti. I was saying that Irvine was lucky to be the first person to remember the memories.



Also, if rinoa was a SeeD wouldn't that screw with the R=U theory because in terms a "SeeD" killed Ulti, so it'd be kind of hypocrittical for her to hate SeeD's when she herself was one in her past form, not to mention it's never stated what SeeD's killed her.

Ma,am, I don't think FE believes in R=U.

It's not hypocritical based on my theory. During the game, Rinoa is not Ulti, so they said different things (different accent). But I believe U=>R (Rinoa becoming next Ulti in the future, maybe after Edea). Ulti is just like a witch but stronger one, she always passes her powers onto someone else, eventually. Ulti is not immortal.

[Goldenboko]

You can assign GF's onto him because if you couldn't give him any GF's he would have no buff's via junctioning, thus making him the most useless character in the history of video games.

Yes, so? I was implying that if Irvine can remember the events, then the others can remember as well. This forgotten thing is created by Ulti. So I dont think it has to do with SeeDs, just the the power from Ulti. I was saying that Irvine was lucky to be the first person to remember the memories.



Also, if rinoa was a SeeD wouldn't that screw with the R=U theory because in terms a "SeeD" killed Ulti, so it'd be kind of hypocrittical for her to hate SeeD's when she herself was one in her past form, not to mention it's never stated what SeeD's killed her.

Ma,am, I don't think FE believes in R=U.

It's not hypocritical based on my theory. During the game, Rinoa is not Ulti, so they said different things (different accent). But I believe U=>R (Rinoa becoming next Ulti in the future, maybe after Edea). Ulti is just like a witch but stronger one, she always passes her powers onto someone else, eventually. Ulti is not immortal.

Okay, your theory goes directly against what is stated in game. The game tells us that they lost their memories because of Junctioned GFs. We shouldn't question that to somethign that you just made up.

Next, I'd like to point out the different accent means nothing. In the original Japanese there was no accent, that was just square's translators sucking, as always. As for the last part, again, I ask you to stop making things up. It's as if I'm reading fan fiction here.

[Serapy]

Next, I'd like to point out the different accent means nothing. In the original Japanese there was no accent, that was just square's translators sucking, as always. As for the last part, again, I ask you to stop making things up. It's as if I'm reading fan fiction here.

Um, I guess you misunderstood me. Ulti spoke very aggressively, Rinoa wasn't like that. So the way how they talk is different.


Okay, your theory goes directly against what is stated in game. The game tells us that they lost their memories because of Junctioned GFs. We shouldn't question that to somethign that you just made up.

That's a lie, they just don't want students to worry. They have lied about some other things too. Go figure for yourself.

[rubah]

actually, I think that the accent was a nice addition, showing the corruption of modern grammar etc over the long period of years. Sometimes the original isn't the best 8)

(frankly it was amazing they were able to understand her speech at all)

[Serapy]

Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? "All things being equal the most simple explanation is the best"? This is why using the method seems better than finding evidences to no avail.

[Avarice-ness]

Okay, your theory goes directly against what is stated in game. The game tells us that they lost their memories because of Junctioned GFs. We shouldn't question that to somethign that you just made up.

That's a lie, they just don't want students to worry. They have lied about some other things too. Go figure for yourself.

In theory threads, the one's supportive of the theory bring forth the evidence to try to convince the others their side is correct, by telling someone to go look for the other things lied about themselves if basically saying "I can't find my evidence right now, so if you look, maybe you'll find it" which is something that crushes credibility.

Get screens of the people telling one of the SeeD's or talking to one another that they lied to them so they wouldn't worry and that will be the proof boko needs.


Have you ever heard of Occam's Razor? "All things being equal the most simple explanation is the best"? This is why using the method seems better than finding evidences to no avail.


This is often paraphrased as "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities. It is in this sense that Occam's razor is usually understood.

The problem with this, is that not all the theory's on -anything- FFVIII related are weighed to be equal.

Like my philosophy professor used as an example of chosing the simplest explanation over one's that have equal to no evidence:

We go outside and are surrounded by sunlight, we accept the sun as our source of light, but what if it was infact small green and yellow balls that we can not feel or touch hitting against each other that 'causes the ilusion of the sun, we can say that we know the sun keeps us lit because scientists tell us, but as we discused previously scientests can be wrong (see: N ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N_rays) ) thus meaning we have to prove for ourselves what exactly we see. Which would be easier for you to accept, that there is a sun in the sky providing light or small green and yellow balls in our atmosphere keeping the world lit and then traveling to other area's when night has fallen.

Clearly saying the sun is the easiest and simplest of the answers, not only because of the logic already placed in it, but the lack of logic places into green and yellow balls hitting each other.

Without logic, a person can believe any theory, I could prolly convince my 3 year old neice of any theory concieved because she has no concept of logic at this point.

Logic and reasoning is still used in Ockrams Razor and some people consider their speculation as logic, "what you see is what you get" and they do not see what others see, which is clear in the thread about the skeletons of the bosses thread.

[Serapy]

You are oversimplifying a bit. He has asked me so many time to find evidences, which I did (in my point of view, basically), yet he didn't even watch the video. So why should I waste more time to give him more evidence?

[MistaCloudStrife]

She is more Seed than the other characters.She even knows how to dance that party dance.
Do mean that dance that's called... uhh... "The Waltz"? Lol.

And Rinoa isn't SeeD. >_>;; There is no solid evidence stating she was, nor is there a reason to hide that she was SeeD even if she were.

[Raebus]

you can keep saying that i make useless posts.. but every theory posted in the last week is nothing more then SPAM!

if you even believed one of them id give you 100 bucks.. but you dont, or youd have the same IQ as a fried fishstick.

now this was a useless post

No no no no no.

Seriously, just stop posting. I find these threads entertaining and they're contributing to the forum. I do not think of that as spam whilst you on the other hand, once again you've shown how half of your posts are useless comments. You're spamming up a good thread , stop posting in it.

As for the theory, I don't know what to think right now. It does sound interesting and I'm entertained, though.

[Takero]

Rinoa is NOT a SeeD . It is mentioned in the game directly , when they waited to see Martin she said something like " Just pretend that I'm a SeeD too ". And beside if she was a SeeD she never needed to hire SeeDs for Forest Owls.
And Irvine is not a SeeD either ,he was never in Balamb garden before and all students need to take their field SeeD test in Balamb garden . and when facing Edea in the end of disk two Seifer says something like "what are you doing here, you are not a SeeD "
So Rinoa and Irvin aren't SeeDs.

[Big D]

I know that most people don't take these kinds of topics even slightly seriously...

But Rinoa isn't a member of SeeD. She had to hire SeeDs to help her resistance movement, because the group lacked SeeD-quality training. She never took any SeeD exams. She had to pretend to be a SeeD at Galbadia Garden, to avoid lengthy explanations to Martine - and even then, she made a real hash of something as simple as saluting appropriately.
When Squall or others talk about SeeD, Rinoa acted like nothing happened.. If she wasn't SeeD, she would be curious to find out what SeeD means or whatever.SeeD's a world-famous team of killer teenage mercenaries. Rinoa hired SeeDs to work for her, so obviously she'd know who they are and what they do.

Sure, Ultimecia says 'SeeD a bunch of times. But then, Kefka says "hate" approximately 16 times when telling Celes he hates her (the "I HATE HATE HATE [etc]... HATE YOU!" speech). Does that mean there are 16 people present? Certainly not.

[blackmage_nuke]

No pets alowed in the Garden!!! Alone she wouldnt have the ability to pass the SeeD test, esspecially with the no gf training rule in Galbadia Garden which is the closest garden to her.

Even if Ulti did say SeeD 6 times as a way to reference to there being 6 SeeDs present (which i highly doubt) it's not like she's all knowing. Maybe she just assumed she was SeeD.

[Future Esthar]

Rinoa is not a SEED trained in the garden.
The word Seed has a meaning beyhound that(as implied by the torture in the prision).

[Serapy]

The problem with this, is that not all the theory's on -anything- FFVIII related are weighed to be equal.

Like my philosophy professor used as an example of chosing the simplest explanation over one's that have equal to no evidence:

We go outside and are surrounded by sunlight, we accept the sun as our source of light, but what if it was infact small green and yellow balls that we can not feel or touch hitting against each other that 'causes the ilusion of the sun, we can say that we know the sun keeps us lit because scientists tell us, but as we discused previously scientests can be wrong (see: N ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) thus meaning we have to prove for ourselves what exactly we see. Which would be easier for you to accept, that there is a sun in the sky providing light or small green and yellow balls in our atmosphere keeping the world lit and then traveling to other area's when night has fallen.

Clearly saying the sun is the easiest and simplest of the answers, not only because of the logic already placed in it, but the lack of logic places into green and yellow balls hitting each other.

Without logic, a person can believe any theory, I could prolly convince my 3 year old neice of any theory concieved because she has no concept of logic at this point.

Logic and reasoning is still used in Ockrams Razor and some people consider their speculation as logic, "what you see is what you get" and they do not see what others see, which is clear in the thread about the skeletons of the bosses thread.

Deformations/shockwaves (like tsunami, floods, etc) which can cause impacts + new position of the bones caused by tsunami or flood = TC can kill people, or change things' positions slowly.
Isn't that enough logic for me to understand? Those findings are my interpretation, I understand them, they make sense. They probably don't make sense to you. But that's normal, right? Because not everybody in real life believe everything.


SeeD's a world-famous team of killer teenage mercenaries. Rinoa hired SeeDs to work for her, so obviously she'd know who they are and what they do.

True, it's famous but what I meant is that Rinoa is not very interested in asking Squall about SeeD whatsoever, like why did he become a SeeD, if Rinoa loves him... she's supposed to care about Squall's integrity, like she should persuade him to quit SeeD so he gets higher chance of not dying from fighting etc etc etc. I may be wrong, though.

[Avarice-ness]

True, it's famous but what I meant is that Rinoa is not very interested in asking Squall about SeeD whatsoever, like why did he become a SeeD, if Rinoa loves him... she's supposed to care about Squall's integrity, like she should persuade him to quit SeeD so he gets higher chance of not dying from fighting etc etc etc. I may be wrong, though.

What? My sister has been married to a guy in the army for 10 years and never once has she mentioned -anything- about giving up the military. People who love people in the military normally respect the choice the other made and will stand by them until they are no longer in, be it death or discharge.


Deformations/shockwaves (like tsunami, floods, etc) which can cause impacts + new position of the bones caused by tsunami or flood = TC can kill people, or change things' positions slowly.
Isn't that enough logic for me to understand? Those findings are my interpretation, I understand them, they make sense. They probably don't make sense to you. But that's normal, right? Because not everybody in real life believe everything.


is not justified by



Serapy,there were many geological catastrophes which changed the world.These weren´t provoked by TC.

And you can´t trust what Odine is saying because he is the true villain of FF8.

My theories are self evident.They are just confused because we are talking about a world divided on many eras.People time travel without realizing when they use some vehicles.

I thought TC can cause geological catastrophes, due to deformations/shockwaves.

and, Dr Odine, I don't care. I have never talked with him before.

Which is said in http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-viii/114457-thread-showing-time-correspondence-locations.html#post2417022 .
Like you said, you thought something. It does not by any means you know something.

He makes more sense than you do with the whole TC thing, therefore I am more inclined to believe him than you.

[Serapy]

If you don't believe me, then why bother arguing with me? ;) There's no point in doing that since our agruements will become endless, hm?


I thought TC can cause geological catastrophes, due to deformations/shockwaves.

and, Dr Odine, I don't care. I have never talked with him before.

I said that because I thought he misunderstood me.

You are just taking everything seriously. I never had the intention of making my theories become reality, that's why they are called theories based on my speculation. As you have mentioned that you are re-playing FF8, so I suggest you pay attention and finish it. When you are done, then I'd so love to hear your speculation.

[Goldenboko]

Next, I'd like to point out the different accent means nothing. In the original Japanese there was no accent, that was just square's translators sucking, as always. As for the last part, again, I ask you to stop making things up. It's as if I'm reading fan fiction here.

Um, I guess you misunderstood me. Ulti spoke very aggressively, Rinoa wasn't like that. So the way how they talk is different.


Okay, your theory goes directly against what is stated in game. The game tells us that they lost their memories because of Junctioned GFs. We shouldn't question that to somethign that you just made up.

That's a lie, they just don't want students to worry. They have lied about some other things too. Go figure for yourself.

They talk different... Okay that shows me absolutely nothing about your theory xD Technically if R=U then they should talk similarly actually.

You can't PROVE thats a lie. Actually there is more evidence that that is truth. When the game started mentioning GF's having the capability to make people lose memory, one of our characters spoke up, and said that the higher ups said there is no truth in that.

You make it sound like the higher ups started that rumor to make them not worry about some other big important danger. Which there is no evidence to, and anything you say will be completely made up :P

Oh and, I will not go figure it out myself. Your presenting a theory, thats your job. If you don't want to do it, don't post in support of the theory.


Rinoa is not a SEED trained in the garden.
The word Seed has a meaning beyhound that(as implied by the torture in the prision).

I think you mean "beyond" xD

Anyway. Again, where did you prove that Rinoa meets the SeeD requirement? There is a large section of the game where Rinoa emphisizes that she feels she isn't like the rest of the party.



The problem with this, is that not all the theory's on -anything- FFVIII related are weighed to be equal.

Like my philosophy professor used as an example of chosing the simplest explanation over one's that have equal to no evidence:

We go outside and are surrounded by sunlight, we accept the sun as our source of light, but what if it was infact small green and yellow balls that we can not feel or touch hitting against each other that 'causes the ilusion of the sun, we can say that we know the sun keeps us lit because scientists tell us, but as we discused previously scientests can be wrong (see: N ray - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) thus meaning we have to prove for ourselves what exactly we see. Which would be easier for you to accept, that there is a sun in the sky providing light or small green and yellow balls in our atmosphere keeping the world lit and then traveling to other area's when night has fallen.

Clearly saying the sun is the easiest and simplest of the answers, not only because of the logic already placed in it, but the lack of logic places into green and yellow balls hitting each other.

Without logic, a person can believe any theory, I could prolly convince my 3 year old neice of any theory concieved because she has no concept of logic at this point.

Logic and reasoning is still used in Ockrams Razor and some people consider their speculation as logic, "what you see is what you get" and they do not see what others see, which is clear in the thread about the skeletons of the bosses thread.

Deformations/shockwaves (like tsunami, floods, etc) which can cause impacts + new position of the bones caused by tsunami or flood = TC can kill people, or change things' positions slowly.
Isn't that enough logic for me to understand? Those findings are my interpretation, I understand them, they make sense. They probably don't make sense to you. But that's normal, right? Because not everybody in real life believe everything.

No, you are defending a theory, in order to defend, or support a theory you need to provide facts in the game, not mindless interpretations. Until you learn how to do this you will not be proving any of your theories correct.





SeeD's a world-famous team of killer teenage mercenaries. Rinoa hired SeeDs to work for her, so obviously she'd know who they are and what they do.

True, it's famous but what I meant is that Rinoa is not very interested in asking Squall about SeeD whatsoever, like why did he become a SeeD, if Rinoa loves him... she's supposed to care about Squall's integrity, like she should persuade him to quit SeeD so he gets higher chance of not dying from fighting etc etc etc. I may be wrong, though.

You have a very selfish view of love. If someone loves someone else then they accept their decisions. Squall made the decision to become a SeeD a long time before he met Rinoa, what gives her the right to tell him he is wrong?


If you don't believe me, then why bother arguing with me? ;) There's no point in doing that since our agruements will become endless, hm?

There is a point to arguing Serapy. Some are personal. A personal one for me is a I hate stupidity, and everytime I read one of your posts or FE's posts on these theories, thats all I see, stupidity.

But more importantly, you have the deluded impression that free speech should mean no one should question you question you when you make a statement, or a theory. If we feel one of your theories is wrong we will argue, and our arguments will be totally acceptable.



I thought TC can cause geological catastrophes, due to deformations/shockwaves.

and, Dr Odine, I don't care. I have never talked with him before.

I said that because I thought he misunderstood me.

You are just taking everything seriously. I never had the intention of making my theories become reality, that's why they are called theories based on my speculation. As you have mentioned that you are re-playing FF8, so I suggest you pay attention and finish it. When you are done, then I'd so love to hear your speculation.

Ah. A classic amateur move of a losing debater. "YOU'RE BEING TOO SERIOUS LEAVE ME ALONE!"

Theories are based of speculation of facts. I've yet to see facts, I'm asking for them, and I'm receive hostility.

Both your, and FE's theories are actually "Fanfiction."

1 a: something invented by the imagination or feigned; specifically : an invented story

Therefore I won't be happy till you all pack up and move to the Writer's Corner, where this crap actually belongs :p

[blackmage_nuke]

Rinoa is not a SEED trained in the garden.
The word Seed has a meaning beyhound that(as implied by the torture in the prision).

What type of SeeD is she then?

[Serapy]

You can't PROVE thats a lie. Actually there is more evidence that that is truth. When the game started mentioning GF's having the capability to make people lose memory, one of our characters spoke up, and said that the higher ups said there is no truth in that.

Disprove it.



You make it sound like the higher ups started that rumor to make them not worry about some other big important danger. Which there is no evidence to, and anything you say will be completely made up :P

Disprove what I've just made up, in which case I didn't.



Oh and, I will not go figure it out myself. Your presenting a theory, thats your job. If you don't want to do it, don't post in support of the theory.

Wrong, my job is to entertain people, resulting in making this forum more active. My job isn't to make my theories become reality. It's really a pity that you are one of other people who actually takes my theories seriously and kept asking me for evidences.


No, you are defending a theory, in order to defend, or support a theory you need to provide facts in the game, not mindless interpretations. Until you learn how to do this you will not be proving any of your theories correct.

Disprove it. You can't keep misjudging me without disproving my theories with evidences first.

I'm using the facts from the game and made interpretations as a pattern for those facts since they match the Occam's Razor's requirement.



You have a very selfish view of love. If someone loves someone else then they accept their decisions. Squall made the decision to become a SeeD a long time before he met Rinoa, what gives her the right to tell him he is wrong?

Um, ok, so it's selfish for your girlfriend (assuming she cares a lot about you) not to ask you questions about your decisions? She may respect your decisions but certainly won't agree with them just for the sake of integrity. What a silly chocobo.



There is a point to arguing Serapy. Some are personal. A personal one for me is a I hate stupidity, and everytime I read one of your posts or FE's posts on these theories, thats all I see, stupidity.

Oh, you hate my stupidity, does that give you the right to agrue back? No, the best thing to do is to simply ignore me.



But more importantly, you have the deluded impression that free speech should mean no one should question you question you when you make a statement, or a theory. If we feel one of your theories is wrong we will argue, and our arguments will be totally acceptable.

If my job is to make FF8 active, then that doesn't give you the right to misjudge me.



Ah. A classic amateur move of a losing debater. "YOU'RE BEING TOO SERIOUS LEAVE ME ALONE!".

The 'people kept asking for facts again and again without putting information that could disprove theories' trend does quite exist and it's bad. That doesn't make you win. The 'lo0lo0l if you don't give facts, I win' thing is very dumb.



Both your, and FE's theories are actually "Fanfiction."

1 a: something invented by the imagination or feigned; specifically : an invented story

Therefore I won't be happy till you all pack up and move to the Writer's Corner, where this crap actually belongs :p

I'm using the Occam's Razor method based on what I've seen from the game (facts), that doesn't mean my theories are fan-fiction.

[Avarice-ness]

Actually, I agree.
I shouldn't argue with a biased person.

No matter what anyone says, this thread will get no where, and because of that.

This can not be proven OR disproven because there is not enough evidence from both sides.

Thus making thus thread pointless and angry spam.
You can't argue with a wall irl, so it's pointless to online.

[Leeza]

Seraphy: Your job is not to entertain people on this board by arguing with them. If you state a theory it's your job to back it up.

I'm closing this since it's obviously going nowhere.