Griever

[Serapy]

The displays of griever are very momentous. In most of the events, Rinoa + Squall = Displays of Griever.

You also see Griever after when Squall and Rinoa hugged, and then the game ends. In any game, what we see in the end is important. We saw Griever as the final thing of FF8.

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5710/grieverlaceeb7.gif

compared to...

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/1482/grieveronmoonss8.gif

-Rinoa asked Squall if she could wear Squall's ring. Suspicious.
-Rinoa looked at the Griever when she was lost in Space, because of what reason? To keep good faith, after that, Squall has found her. Suspicious.
-there are so many more.

Griever is a symbolism, being a symbolism, there is so much to it.

This explains WHY Rinoa became very interested in Squall at the beginning of the game, automatically faniced him, automatically cared about him, regardless of his careless behaviours towards Rinoa. It's like Griever brings a good faith towards Rinoa and Squall.

-Rinoa was insane when she was possessed.
-When she was possessed, Rinoa always knew about the Griever thing, she knew it was very important to Squall.

Rinoa is Ultimecia at some point. When you fight against Ultimecia (remember Rinoa is insane when she is Ultimecia) and she manifested Griever out of Squall, all because of Rinoa's insanity. If it was Ultimecia, not Rinoa, then how did Ultimecia know that Griver exists in the mind of Squall? Unless he was possessed, but no, that didn't happen. Rinoa is the only person who has that knowledge, therefore she was the only one who manifested Griver out of Squall due to her insanity. At times when Ultimecia possessed Rinoa, Ulti did not acknowledge anything about the Griever thing but there are times that Rinoa has acknowledged about Griever and she wasn't possessed, so I doubt Ultimecia has took that 'Griever' knowledge from Rinoa and then manifested Griever.

CTSE.

[leader of mortals]

That picture is definently griever... everything else you said? NO!

[Tallulah]

Stop pretending to be FE, you! :rolleyes2

[Serapy]

Well, it makes sense to me. Otherwise, I'll be happy to acknowledge information from you people that could disprove my theory or the Griever being on the Moon.

[rubah]

griever is pretty much the only thing that could support r=u, but one piece of evidence isn't enough imo xD

(does anyone else refer to griever in the moon irl? Instead of the man in the moon, or whatever? I do xD)

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Well, it makes sense to me. Otherwise, I'll be happy to acknowledge information from you people that could disprove my theory or the Griever being on the Moon.The burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim.

[Serapy]

When I said "disprove my theory with information", it can be either evidence based or not.


Rinoa: Hmm...so this L I O N of yours, does it have a name?

Squall: Of course. Griever.

Rinoa: So that's what you call it. You know Zell said he'll make me one
exactly like it. Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too. That'd
be crazy, huh!? I mean, everyone might, y'know, get the wrong idea
about us.

It implies that she actually likes the norm of Griever. At that time, she wasn't possessed, either. I don't recall any event that Squall has told Rinoa about Griever or implied things about Griever (strength and pride) WHILE she was possessed.
So, how did Ulti knew about Griever? She CAN'T manfiest Griever out of Squall WITHOUT knowing the existence of Griever in the first place, see what I mean? Rinoa IS the only person who knew about Griever, Squall even told her the name.
I don't think Ulti has the ability to read Squall's mind, so how? That's why my theory seem to make sense, Rinoa is Ultimecia and created Griever due to her insanity. I'm not saying it's TRUE but it seems very plausible to me.

In the game, when Rinoa was possessed, she went absolutely mad in the space station = insanity.
So if Rinoa is Ulimecia, she will become insane and creates Griever because she acknowledged Griever from Squall in the first place. Insanity = leads to unpredictable things.

There are a lot of evidences that Squall has careless attitudes against his friends, including Rinoa. Yet, as the story goes on, Rinoa always became on Squall's side, caring about him, loving him, etc. Does that sound odd? With my theory, it doesn't seem odd to me anymore.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1869/sawwq8.gif

She saw it, good faith has returned, after that event, Squall has found her. That's because of Griever, when she looked at Griever, she thinks of strength and pride, so she got good hope.

-------

Adel grabbed Rinoa.
Rinoa passed out.

When she woke up, this dialogue imploded:


Rinoa: I...was inside Adel... The young Adel...

and then Laguna said Ulti was inside Adel. That seems Suspicious.

You know, the whole event when Adel woke up. The monsters started fleeing from the moon. Yes, the moon where it symbolizes Griever. Seems Suspicious as well.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8643/whokm3.gif

I wonder who is that? A new witch in the future? She has similar wings as Ulti, Edea and Adel. Shiva is naked, that woman in the picture also seems to be naked, hmm.

[Jessweeee♪]

Looks kinda like the the statue of Shiva in FFX o:

[Marky Tee]

i always thought griever should have been the ff8 emblem
not squall and rinoa huggin
would have been a more powerfull image i think

[Serapy]

It's plausible that TC has been done before the FF8 game, it's also plausible that what we see in FF8 is a compressed world.

Ultimecia wasn't not the only great sorceress in the whole generation, there were also great sorceresses (e.g. Great Hyne) before the FF8 gameplay's timeline, way long ago. Meaning, someone with great powers in that old generation might have used TC.

In regard of the Griever symbolism, it's not only that which made Rinoa interested in Squall, but TC also gave her Deja-Vu feelings towards Squall, coexisting the future timeline because of TC.

Time Travel exists in the world of FF8, Squall went back to the past of his childhood generation where he then met Matron. Squall told Matron about SeeD/Garden, when that timeline grows older, Matron then invented the garden and SeeD ideas.

Have you watched the movie called Deja Vu? At the end, Denzel smiled at her because he felt deja vu.

[Sir Bahamut]

If it was Ultimecia, not Rinoa, then how did Ultimecia know that Griver exists in the mind of Squall?

Ultimecia could compress and absorb space and time itself and create GF's out of thin air. As such, it is hardly a stretch to say that she was able to in some way scan Squall's mind and find the image of Griever.


In the game, when Rinoa was possessed, she went absolutely mad in the space station = insanity.
So if Rinoa is Ulimecia, she will become insane and creates Griever because she acknowledged Griever from Squall in the first place.

If Rinoa was mad only when possessed, and Rinoa IS Ultimecia, then that can't explain Rinoa becoming a mad Ultimecia because that would imply she was possessing herself in real time, which is absurd.


There are a lot of evidences that Squall has careless attitudes against his friends, including Rinoa. Yet, as the story goes on, Rinoa always became on Squall's side, caring about him, loving him, etc. Does that sound odd?

Not really. It's called being in love.


It's plausible that TC has been done before the FF8 game, it's also plausible that what we see in FF8 is a compressed world.

Not possible. The game clearly states that no one but Ultimecia could live in a time compressed world, so if someone else compressed time there's no way we could be playing the game we see. The very fact that we can play the game proves that TC never happened and never will happen in the entire history of the FF8 universe.

[Emery]

You tell'em! xD

[Serapy]

Glad to see you back, Sir B!


Ultimecia could compress and absorb space and time itself and create GF's out of thin air. As such, it is hardly a stretch to say that she was able to in some way scan Squall's mind and find the image of Griever.

That's the problem. Why has it to be Squall? Why is it only Squall that Ultimecia manifested of? Why can't it be someone else?
I'm sure there is a thing that is a lot stronger than Griever, why didn't Ultimecia create that? Why did she choose Squall, instead of someone else? I'm pretty sure that Squall wasn't THAT terrified of Griever either. So I think this whole thing has a special meaning...




If Rinoa was mad only when possessed, and Rinoa IS Ultimecia, then that can't explain Rinoa becoming a mad Ultimecia because that would imply she was possessing herself in real time, which is absurd.

Two same persons at the exact time is possible in the terms of Time Travel. For example, big Squall and small Squall presented at the same time. So why not Rinoa and Ultimecia as well? Ulti wanted to possess Rinoa to make changes, just like a time loop... it's hard to explain. It's like Squall telling Matron the ideas about SeeD/Garden in the past and then in the future, it all were invented.

Why did Squall want to kill Ultimecia? I think Squall wanted to do it, so Rinoa won't reach Ultimecia's powers in the future or he did it so Rinoa won't be no longer affected by Ultimecia. Rinoa told Squall that it won't change the fact that Ulti was born when she's defected. Rinoa is right, if Ultimecia is killed, Rinoa won't die.

For example, if small Squall killed big Squall, it won't affect small Squall in any way :x At that time, small Squall will be co-existing the new timeline... cuz the whole timeline of big Squall is gone.. since he died.



Not possible. The game clearly states that no one but Ultimecia could live in a time compressed world, so if someone else compressed time there's no way we could be playing the game we see. The very fact that we can play the game proves that TC never happened and never will happen in the entire history of the FF8 universe.

What about Great Hyne? I'm pretty sure she (or he?) has used TC or some other sort of same powers for other purpose.
The game stating that "no else but Ultimecia..." Well, how did the person know? He/she wasn't there when Great Hyne was alive, right?

As for "...there's no way we could be playing the game we see"
I think SquareEnix has decided to display the timeline as a game because it has most events (more momentous) than other timelines.

Sir B, since your website was either down or deleted, I've checked web archive and found your page, it's about the theory:

http://web.archive.org/web/20050403112055/http://www.slimits.com/ultimecia.html

So what changed your perspective by then? I'm curious.

[Sir Bahamut]

Yeah, I guess I kinda stopped coming here a while back; too many discussions about this stuff in a row I guess!


That's the problem. Why has it to be Squall? Why is it only Squall that Ultimecia manifested of? Why can't it be someone else?
I'm sure there is a thing that is a lot stronger than Griever, why didn't Ultimecia create that? Why did she choose Squall, instead of someone else?

Two reasons. Firstly, and most obviously, Squall was the leader of the group, so if she was going to target anyone first it would be him. Secondly, and more subtly, Ultimecia knew that Squall was supposed to kill him (i.e. that's what happens historically speaking). Recall Ultimecia saying "So you're the legendary SeeD destined to face me" to Squall. Ultimecia lives in the future, and given the magnitude of the events occurring in FF8, it seems pretty apparent that she knows that Squall was supposed to kill her (hence why she goes back in time to begin with, to stop fate).

So basically Squall was in every way the natural target for Ultimecia, and the fact that she chose to scan him and no one else shouldn't be that surprising.



Two same persons at the exact time is possible in the terms of Time Travel. For example, big Squall and small Squall presented at the same time. So why not Rinoa and Ultimecia as well?


That's different. The point I was trying to make was that whether or not Rinoa was mad while being possessed makes no difference to the R=U theory. If you want to explain why Rinoa might go mad, you'll have to find another way, because if you're explaining it by her getting possessed, you'd require Ultimecia to be possessing herself in the past all the time.



Why did Squall want to kill Ultimecia? I think Squall wanted to do it, so Rinoa won't reach Ultimecia's powers in the future?

I think he killed her because she was planning to compress and absorb all of time and space and become god...


What about Great Hyne? I'm pretty sure she (or he?) has used TC or some other sort of same powers for other purpose.
The game stating that "no else but Ultimecia..." Well, how did the person know? He/she wasn't there when Great Hyne was alive, right?

There's no record of Hyne using TC in the game.

As for that quote, the point it makes is that if someone compresses time, the only person who could exist in any meaningful sense would be the person casting it. Hence why when Ultimecia was planning to cast it, Rinoa and Edea stated that only Ultimecia could live in such a situation. This is understandable, seeing as TC would basically dismantle the timeline of the FF8 universe entirely.

So the fact that the timeline in FF8 IS NOT dismantled and messed up completely implies that it's not compressed, meaning no one ever completed TC in the past nor will anyone in the future.


Sir B, since your website was either down or deleted, I've checked web archive and found your page, it's about the theory:

http://web.archive.org/web/200504031...ultimecia.html

So what changed your perspective by then? I'm curious.

Lol, wow, that text is very old indeed. Please read the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ found here:

Final Fantasy VIII FAQs - Final Fantasy VIII Walkthroughs - Final Fantasy VIII Guides (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html)

It's the most up to date version. As for what changed my perspective? Time, and some very eminent debaters.

[Vyk]

Why is it always FFVIII that gets these threads? And where is Future Esthar? xD He'd cream his pants reading this..

[rubah]

Because FF8 deserves better than HURT OR HEAL threads.

Hi Sir Bahamut :) you didn't happen to bring Squall_of_SeeD with you did you?

[The Last Oath]

Wow, that picture of the sorceress.. If u ask me, it is a a statue built by the garden for symbolic reasons...

1. SeeD are meant to defeat the sorceress
2. Squall recieved Shiva FROM Balamb Garden.. Shiva may be a GF that represents Balamb. (i.e. The hall of Shiva)

[Cloud88]

Ultimecia could compress and absorb space and time itself and create GF's out of thin air. As such, it is hardly a stretch to say that she was able to in some way scan Squall's mind and find the image of Griever.

That's the problem. Why has it to be Squall? Why is it only Squall that Ultimecia manifested of? Why can't it be someone else?


If she did scan other people, its not like she'd find anything worth recreating. I mean, its not like a giant hotdog is gonna create much fear or damage.:D

[Sir Bahamut]

Because FF8 deserves better than HURT OR HEAL threads.

Hi Sir Bahamut :) you didn't happen to bring Squall_of_SeeD with you did you?

Nah, afraid not. He officially retired from FF debating a couple of years ago as he was getting married! Haven't seen him since, so he probably won't be back.

[leader of mortals]

Did seraphy seriously ask why it has to be squall? HE IS THE MAIN CHARACTER!!!!!! He's supposed to be more important!

[Takara]

Ultimecia could compress and absorb space and time itself and create GF's out of thin air. As such, it is hardly a stretch to say that she was able to in some way scan Squall's mind and find the image of Griever.

That's the problem. Why has it to be Squall? Why is it only Squall that Ultimecia manifested of? Why can't it be someone else?


If she did scan other people, its not like she'd find anything worth recreating. I mean, its not like a giant hotdog is gonna create much fear or damage.:D

Well, I'd be scared...

[BG-57]

Ultimecia could compress and absorb space and time itself and create GF's out of thin air. As such, it is hardly a stretch to say that she was able to in some way scan Squall's mind and find the image of Griever.

That's the problem. Why has it to be Squall? Why is it only Squall that Ultimecia manifested of? Why can't it be someone else?


If she did scan other people, its not like she'd find anything worth recreating. I mean, its not like a giant hotdog is gonna create much fear or damage.:D

Well, I'd be scared...


http://www.roberthood.net/daikaiju-antho/contributors/images/marshmallowman.jpg

[Takara]

But that's not a giant hotdog! :( Not as scary as a giant hotdog.

[Serapy]

Wow, that picture of the sorceress.. If u ask me, it is a a statue built by the garden for symbolic reasons...

1. SeeD are meant to defeat the sorceress
2. Squall recieved Shiva FROM Balamb Garden.. Shiva may be a GF that represents Balamb. (i.e. The hall of Shiva)

The statue in the picture isn't exactly located in Balamb Garden, it's being surrounded around by the Deling City street (according to the FMV) during the flashback, I'm not sure why but I think it could be a representation of everything being compressed.

[Keltainen Paprika]

The statue isn't always in the ballroom.

http://www.squareapex.com/ff8/images/disc1/dance-party2/0055.jpg
See portion of it here, but the woman is gone.

The significance of the nude woman is unknown; nothing suggests it has anything to do with Time Compression. Time Compressed world cannot exist. It's a Game Over, end of the world, if time was compressed. Ultimecia never actually achieves Time Compression. She starts it, but never finishes it.

[Crye 4 Me]

Wow, that picture of the sorceress.. If u ask me, it is a a statue built by the garden for symbolic reasons...

1. SeeD are meant to defeat the sorceress
2. Squall recieved Shiva FROM Balamb Garden.. Shiva may be a GF that represents Balamb. (i.e. The hall of Shiva)

The statue in the picture isn't exactly located in Balamb Garden, it's being surrounded around by the Deling City street (according to the FMV) during the flashback, I'm not sure why but I think it could be a representation of everything being compressed.


The statue isn't always in the ballroom.

http://www.squareapex.com/ff8/images/disc1/dance-party2/0055.jpg
See portion of it here, but the woman is gone.

The significance of the nude woman is unknown; nothing suggests it has anything to do with Time Compression. Time Compressed world cannot exist. It's a Game Over, end of the world, if time was compressed. Ultimecia never actually achieves Time Compression. She starts it, but never finishes it.

Hi I'm new and haven't posted here in years this one caught my eye. It's correct that the statue is in different parts of the world and maybe it's just to get our brain's a rolling and nothing more as it could just be one of the thing like in movies where you will see a character wearing a coat one minute and 2 seconds later he's not and he's not had time to remove it.

[Marky Tee]

umm can i just ask one thing?
just because when you scan griever it says something like"in squalls mind,the strongest gf"
how does that imply that griever only exists in squalls mind?
sounds more like in squalls opinion the strongest gf
at least thats what i thought
what about you lot?

[Goldenboko]

Well, it makes sense to me. Otherwise, I'll be happy to acknowledge information from you people that could disprove my theory or the Griever being on the Moon.The burden of proof is on the person making the positive claim.

[Serapy]

Yeah, it's strange.

Comparison:

In the Disc 1, during the attempted assassination, Edea and Seifer were behind the gate of Dollet City.

and

In the flashblack, the camera then zoomed from the place (near where Irvine attempted to shoot Edea) into the gate of Dollet City STRAIGHT, just like the motions of the attempted assassination. When the camera went though the gate, you will then see the ball place with the statue and Rinoa in it.

The question is that why does the flashblack take place behind the gate of Dollet City? My first thought was that Squall almost died (or almost got badly injured) in the gate of Dollet City. So during the dream, he thought of Rinoa and where did he get hit, which automatically makes him see Dollet City and how did he meet Rinoa, but I'm really not sure about that yet...




Wow, that picture of the sorceress.. If u ask me, it is a a statue built by the garden for symbolic reasons...

1. SeeD are meant to defeat the sorceress
2. Squall recieved Shiva FROM Balamb Garden.. Shiva may be a GF that represents Balamb. (i.e. The hall of Shiva)

I forget to say one more thing; yes obviously, SeeDs are always designed to kill sorceresses, but the problem is that what about other GFs like Eden? Eden is a gigantic garden and it's totally irrelevant to the actual designs of gardens and yet it came to existence.

[JackNapier]

Ultimecia could compress and absorb space and time itself and create GF's out of thin air. As such, it is hardly a stretch to say that she was able to in some way scan Squall's mind and find the image of Griever.

That's the problem. Why has it to be Squall? Why is it only Squall that Ultimecia manifested of? Why can't it be someone else?


If she did scan other people, its not like she'd find anything worth recreating. I mean, its not like a giant hotdog is gonna create much fear or damage.:D

Well, I'd be scared...


http://www.roberthood.net/daikaiju-antho/contributors/images/marshmallowman.jpg

Win.

[champagne supernova]

Serapy, I'm assuming that when you mention Dollet City, you are in fact referring to Deling City (capital of Galbadia). Is this flashback the one in the final FMV? If it is, it doesn't prove very much, because it's Squall, alone in time and space, imagining or believing that the worst has happened.

Time Compression can not occur more than once. In time compression, all of time is bundled up into one moment (keeping it simple). If all of time is in one moment, then there is no time (sorry about the choice of word) for anything else to happen, and therefore, for someone to cast time compression.


When I said "disprove my theory with information", it can be either evidence based or not.

Okay, here is some evidence that reduces the possibility of this theory holding true.

1) No where in the game is it stated or implied that Griever is fictional. Squall mentions that Griever is the strongest GF. Obviously, Squall himself doesn't have it, or any of your party, because it cannot be junctioned or used. The possibility exists (and would seem quite large) that Griever is a GF that Ultimecia brings under her control.


2) Your next bit of evidence was this.




Rinoa: Hmm...so this L I O N of yours, does it have a name?

Squall: Of course. Griever.

Rinoa: So that's what you call it. You know Zell said he'll make me one
exactly like it. Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too. That'd
be crazy, huh!? I mean, everyone might, y'know, get the wrong idea
about us.

It implies that she actually likes the norm of Griever. At that time, she wasn't possessed, either. I don't recall any event that Squall has told Rinoa about Griever or implied things about Griever (strength and pride) WHILE she was possessed.
So, how did Ulti knew about Griever? She CAN'T manfiest Griever out of Squall WITHOUT knowing the existence of Griever in the first place, see what I mean? Rinoa IS the only person who knew about Griever, Squall even told her the name.


However, this assumes that Ultimecia does not have access to the memory of the people she possesses. Which the game does not implicitly or explicitly states. In the game, Edea creates the White SeeD ship and sends it off, making sure she never knows where it is. One could believe that this means Ultimecia is able to access the memories of those she possesses.

3) Finally, if Ultimecia did actually create Griever from Squall's mind (i.e. if 1 doesn't hold), then why does she have to have prior knowledge of this being. She is an amazingly powerful sorceress, and therefore should be able to scan everyone's mind, and choose the best imaginary creature. What would the other's imaginary creatures be? Here are my guesses.
Zell: someone's already mentioned it - a giant hot dog.
Irvine: Giselle Bundchen.
Selphie: Something cute and cuddly.
Quistis: a Squall that's in love with her.
Rinoa: Angelo.
I think Griever wins that contest.

In summary, your theory about R=U through the use of Griever is problematic in 3 areas. The first is that Griever could be a GF that actually exists but is only found by Ultimecia. The second is that Ultimecia may be able to access memories. And the third is that Ultimecia may not have to have prior knowledge of Griever to summon him.

I'm not saying your theory is not true, I'd just like these 3 areas to be addressed first.

[Serapy]

Yeah, my bad. Sorry.

Yes, I think it makes sense at some point that Ultimecia created Griever because she thought it was the strongest creature, but I still find that hard to believe because:



Rinoa: So that's what you call it. You know Zell said he'll make me one
exactly like it. Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too. That'd
be crazy, huh!? I mean, everyone might, y'know, get the wrong idea
about us.

See the bold part? She says she can become a lion (Griever), and yet in the end Ultimecia transformed herself into Griever (created it).

Let me re-cap, at the time when she says that. She wasn't possessed and is still on White Wings (good) and she said the 'lion' word because it's supposed to represent a good defense or something like that. On the other side, Ultimecia is on Black Wings (Evil) and she created Griever to represent a bad defense towards the Squall and his party in the end because she was "evil", you know what I mean. It's weird and hard to believe that Ultimeca picked Griever out of random because she thinks it's the strongest.

and also I think that, in general, Griever isn't the strongest, Squall only thinks that, not others.

Anyway, I'm not exactly sure how Ultimecia read people minds, I thought they need to be possessed first. What I mean is that if Ultimecia actually read EVERYBODY's minds at all the time, surely she will know what Squall is thinking of how to beat her in that battle? And surely she could have stopped that?

[champagne supernova]

It's weird and hard to believe that Ultimeca picked Griever out of random because she thinks it's the strongest.

and also I think that, in general, Griever isn't the strongest, Squall only thinks that, not others.

Anyway, I'm not exactly sure how Ultimecia read people minds, I thought they need to be possessed first. What I mean is that if Ultimecia actually read EVERYBODY's minds at all the time, surely she will know what Squall is thinking of how to beat her in that battle? And surely she could have stopped that?

Yes, but there is still the rather large possibility that Griever existed throughout the game, and Squall was inspired by this legendary GF into making his ring and necklace etc. And then, in the future, Ultimecia found Griever (the GF), defeated him, and then junctioned him.

There is another possibility that Griever in fact resides in Squall's necklace. Ultimecia was able to feel his presence in it and release him. I still reckon that Griever existed in reality is more likely than anything else.

[Serapy]

His sword too but it just dropped from the sky out of no where in the beginning of the game. Where did that come from? If he actually made it, why did it drop from the sky? Did he throw it? Is it meant to be a symbolism? I made a theory about this; Ultimecia made his sword, ring and necklace and drop em on the ground for Squall because she wanted Squall to kill him in the end. If Ultimecia can read everybody mind and then she dies, then this theory would make sense.

[Marky Tee]

i think that just happens for dramatic effect
dont think its anything to do with the story

[Cloudane]

Yet another r=u thread???

Somewhere (on here I think), I read that Ultimecia's lines in the French version translate to something along the lines of "Suffer from your own imaginations" when summoning Griever. Combined with the Scan readout of "In Squall's mind, the most powerful GF", I find it far more likely that it was a physical manifestation of Squall's fear/imagination, or otherwise somehow created by her by 'reading' his mind. Something like Boggarts in Harry Potter. Rather than the usual theory of it being a GF contained in Squall's ring.

[champagne supernova]

Rather than the usual theory of it being a GF contained in Squall's ring.

And it's not like Squall only had a Griever ring. He also had a necklace, and I believe it was also attached somewhere to his gunblade. IF it was a GF that Squall unwittingly possessed, then why does it necessarily have to be the ring. I was looking at a GameFaqs script, and that person got the impression it came from the necklace. I'll try find a link to that part of the battle, to see what can be made from it.

EDIT: YouTube - Final Fantasy VIII -0189- Squall's strongest GF?! VS Griever (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIBHE5BghUk&feature=related)
It's a bit long, and seems slow, but watch the first bit. Ultimecia says: "The strongest GF. You shall suffer."
When you scan it: In Squall's mind, the strongest GF. Through Ultimecia's power, continues to fight without vanishing.

Also, judging by the way it is summoned, I don't think she created Griever on the spot, or stole it from Squall's mind. I think that Squall's jewellery was based on the legendary GF Griever, which Ultimecia found. I don't think Ultimecia had the power to just create GFs out of nothing.

[Marky Tee]

i think the theory that ultimecia created griever out of squalls imagination is pretty crazy
if that where true then wouldnt that mean griever was jus a daydream squall had of being or having control of something very powerfull?
doesnt seem to fit IMO

[The Crystal]

There may have been a "real" Griever that existed in stories that Squall had known about, but the only suggestion offered in-game is that it is a creature that Squall conceived of in his own mind, as Scan tells us that in Squall's mind, Griever is the strongest GF:

"Griever In Squall's mind, the strongest GF. Through Ultimecia's power, continues fighting without vanishing."

Further, Ultimecia's Witch Embodiment powers granted her the ability to reach into other's minds and pull things out (as she often displays when completely removing a character's stock of a certain type of Spell). In the case of Griever, she simply manifested the thoughts she pulled from Squall's mind regarding what he believed to be the most powerful being in existence. This would be a great strategical move on Ultimecia's part. This is made even more plausible when examining what the japanese version has Ultimecia say:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu.

[Marky Tee]

Griever In Squall's mind, the strongest GF.


i would have thought that phrase meaning in squall opinion it was the strongest out of all the gf's would have made a lot more sense than it only existing in squalls mind
infact i cant see how so many would arrive at the latter explanation at all

[Iceglow]

I don't know about creating GF's but I do know that Tiamat WAS a GF until he fell slave to Ultimecia and became a monster, I assume she binds legendary GF's (Catoblepas and others in the castle) to her and through her power of magic they are forced to remain on the physical plane as monsters until they are either released or defeated.

[The Crystal]

Griever In Squall's mind, the strongest GF.


i would have thought that phrase meaning in squall opinion it was the strongest out of all the gf's would have made a lot more sense than it only existing in squalls mind
infact i cant see how so many would arrive at the latter explanation at all

Did you ignore the rest of the post?

[Serapy]

Zell: "Squall's ring!? I dunno where he bought it."

Rinoa: "I want the same one. It looks really cool, doesn't it?"

Zell: "You mean the one with some monster carved on it?"

Rinoa: "YEAH!"

Zell: "Alright, how 'bout I make you one? I'm pretty good at that
kinda stuff."

Rinoa: "Really!? Sure, OK!!!"

Zell: "Let's have Squall show us the real thing."

Rinoa: "...We can't do that."

Zell: "Why not?"

Rinoa: "...It's embarrassing."

Zell: "Say what? Oh..."

Rinoa: "No! It's not what you think!"

How does she know? Squall never even tell her that he's scared of the GF. Any man wouldn't say that.

[Iceglow]

Stop it Seraphy, you're reading way too far inbetween the lines. It's getting FE like now and that scares me, it cannot be good for yours or anyone elses health lol. Rinoa fancies Squall but doesn't want to admit that she needs someone (fiercely independent rebel chick as she is) the discussion about the ring originally takes place I believe in the past and occurs as flashback in to the game at a later point. As the game progresses she generally comes to realize that relying on Squall wouldn't be a sign of weakness since in his own way he relies on his friends and her too. An example of his reliance on them is in the Garden to Garden battle with the Gabaldians, when Zell can't save Rinoa, Squall relies on him and Quistis to lead a successful assault on the enemy base. After the prison escape, Squall relies on Selphie to get to the missile base and destroy the missiles aimed at balamb, the fact he has backup plans is just because he's an elite mercenary he'd be thorough. Add their ages to this, they're barely adults. Think how every other teenager acts about liking someone. "He's so funny and I wish I could be half as funny as him...no it's not like that! stop it! stop thinking like that! I do not fancy him" <--- typical if slightly exaggerated girlie convo between teenagers I know, I witnessed enough of these in college. The convo between Rinoa and Zell is exactly one of these it's where Zell first realizes she REALLY fancies Squall but Rinoa being embarassed for some reason denies it.

[Marky Tee]

Did you ignore the rest of the post?[!] google_ad_section_end [/!]

no no i did not lol



Further, Ultimecia's Witch Embodiment powers granted her the ability to reach into other's minds and pull things out (as she often displays when completely removing a character's stock of a certain type of Spell). In the case of Griever, she simply manifested the thoughts she pulled from Squall's mind regarding what he believed to be the most powerful being in existence. This would be a great strategical move on Ultimecia's part.


this part was said by another forum member and as such is his or her take on things and not actualy evidence



This is made even more plausible when examining what the japanese version has Ultimecia say:

Ultimecia: Your feelings, I shall summon the most powerful of things [from them]! The more strongly you feel, that will be what shall torment you. Fufu.


hmm well since that actualy is in the game its pretty hard to refute and i can see how you might think that
slightly anyway
but it still doesnt necessarily apply to griever
basicly im still not buying lol

[Serapy]

Stop it Seraphy, you're reading way too far inbetween the lines. It's getting FE like now and that scares me, it cannot be good for yours or anyone elses health lol. Rinoa fancies Squall but doesn't want to admit that she needs someone (fiercely independent rebel chick as she is) the discussion about the ring originally takes place I believe in the past and occurs as flashback in to the game at a later point. As the game progresses she generally comes to realize that relying on Squall wouldn't be a sign of weakness since in his own way he relies on his friends and her too. An example of his reliance on them is in the Garden to Garden battle with the Gabaldians, when Zell can't save Rinoa, Squall relies on him and Quistis to lead a successful assault on the enemy base. After the prison escape, Squall relies on Selphie to get to the missile base and destroy the missiles aimed at balamb, the fact he has backup plans is just because he's an elite mercenary he'd be thorough. Add their ages to this, they're barely adults. Think how every other teenager acts about liking someone. "He's so funny and I wish I could be half as funny as him...no it's not like that! stop it! stop thinking like that! I do not fancy him" <--- typical if slightly exaggerated girlie convo between teenagers I know, I witnessed enough of these in college. The convo between Rinoa and Zell is exactly one of these it's where Zell first realizes she REALLY fancies Squall but Rinoa being embarassed for some reason denies it.

True. It's just that it's complicated when it comes to the Griever thing, why can't it be something else.

[champagne supernova]

Because Griever was one of the major elements in the story. And if Ultimecia summons Griever, you (as the player) are going to think, "Oh my gosh, she just summoned Griever."

If she summoned Norton (who hears a Who), or Robert, or Humbert, or Delilah or Nofundo, there just wouldn't be that shock. It would just be some massively random GF!

[Serapy]

The point is that Rinoa is involved, which makes it complicated.

[champagne supernova]

The point is that Rinoa is involved, which makes it complicated.

How is Rinoa involved? Besides the fact that she she sees a cool ring on someone she has a crush on, and then asks for a copy to be made.

Really, this is getting far too much. There is no way to determine whether Ultimecia found the GF Griever, or whether she pulled it out of Squall's mind. I believe the former is more likely, seeing that Squall does not necessarily fight Ultimecia at the end, which complicates matters, but there is no proof one way or another. But to try manipulate Griever's role in the game to prove R=U is ridiculous.

[Serapy]

The point is that Rinoa is involved, which makes it complicated.

How is Rinoa involved? Besides the fact that she she sees a cool ring on someone she has a crush on, and then asks for a copy to be made.

Compare her general reactions to her specific reactions when it comes to the Griever thing.



Really, this is getting far too much. There is no way to determine whether Ultimecia found the GF Griever, or whether she pulled it out of Squall's mind. I believe the former is more likely, seeing that Squall does not necessarily fight Ultimecia at the end, which complicates matters, but there is no proof one way or another. But to try manipulate Griever's role in the game to prove R=U is ridiculous.

Yes, there's a way to determine.

For example:

Matron gained powers off Ultimecia.

Matron begun to know about Ellone after she came to the orphanage (She learnt about Ellone).
Which explains why Ellone left the orphanage earlier because she was scared of Matron due to her powers that were recieved by Ultimecia. Proof: you see little Squall calling Sis... at the orphanage for many times, which indicated that Ellone left him/the orphanage in the first place.

Later in the story, Ultimecia possessed Edea.

While possessing Edea, Ultimecia has just found out about Ellone and her special power.

Ultimecia begun looking for Ellone.

So, based on that logic:

Rinoa learnt about Griever.

Ultimecia possessed Rinoa. While possessing Rinoa, Ultimecia has just found out about Griever.

In the end, she summoned Griever.

The point is that if Rinoa has never learnt about Griever in the first place, there is no way that Ultimecia could summon Griever. Ultimecia can't just gain knowledge, unless she possesses someone.

[champagne supernova]

Yes, there's a way to determine.

For example:

Matron gained powers off Ultimecia.

Matron begun to know about Ellone after she came to the orphanage (She learnt about Ellone).
Which explains why Ellone left the orphanage earlier because she was scared of Matron due to her powers that were recieved by Ultimecia. Proof: you see little Squall calling Sis... at the orphanage for many times, which indicated that Ellone left him/the orphanage in the first place.

Ellone didn't leave the orphanage because she was afraid of Edea. Edea sent Ellone away, to be protected by the White SeeDs, so that if she was possessed, Ellone would be out of harms way. But the gist of what you're saying is still the same.


Later in the story, Ultimecia possessed Edea.

While possessing Edea, Ultimecia has just found out about Ellone and her special power.

Ultimecia begun looking for Ellone.

So, based on that logic:

Rinoa learnt about Griever.

Ultimecia possessed Rinoa. While possessing Rinoa, Ultimecia has just found out about Griever.

In the end, she summoned Griever.

The point is that if Rinoa has never learnt about Griever in the first place, there is no way that Ultimecia could summon Griever. Ultimecia can't just gain knowledge, unless she possesses someone.

But it doesn't determine whether Griever is a real GF, like Ifrit/Bahamut etc. which Ultimecia found, or whether she summoned it out of Squall's mind. I feel the former is more likely, but they both have merits.

Ultimecia may have found out about Griever from Rinoa when she possessed her. Or, perhaps Ultimecia read it out of a history book, or a book on GFs, or Squall's autobiography. One cannot prove that one way or another either, although it is definitely probable that Ultimecia found out through Rinoa.

But, I don't know how that shows Rinoa is Ultimecia.

[Serapy]

Yes, there's a way to determine.

For example:

Matron gained powers off Ultimecia.

Matron begun to know about Ellone after she came to the orphanage (She learnt about Ellone).
Which explains why Ellone left the orphanage earlier because she was scared of Matron due to her powers that were recieved by Ultimecia. Proof: you see little Squall calling Sis... at the orphanage for many times, which indicated that Ellone left him/the orphanage in the first place.

Ellone didn't leave the orphanage because she was afraid of Edea. Edea sent Ellone away, to be protected by the White SeeDs, so that if she was possessed, Ellone would be out of harms way. But the gist of what you're saying is still the same.

Ellone leaving on purpose and Matron sending her away is the same difference as leaving the orphanage alone. If Matron has never gained powers in the first place, then she didn't have to leave so early.
Matron is a nice woman, I'm sure she wouldn't do the wrong thing (keeping Ellone at all the time), but it's too late for that. It doesn't even matter if Ellone is near Edea or not because Edea already have gained the knowledge of Ellone.




Later in the story, Ultimecia possessed Edea.

While possessing Edea, Ultimecia has just found out about Ellone and her special power.

Ultimecia begun looking for Ellone.

So, based on that logic:

Rinoa learnt about Griever.

Ultimecia possessed Rinoa. While possessing Rinoa, Ultimecia has just found out about Griever.

In the end, she summoned Griever.

The point is that if Rinoa has never learnt about Griever in the first place, there is no way that Ultimecia could summon Griever. Ultimecia can't just gain knowledge, unless she possesses someone.

But it doesn't determine whether Griever is a real GF, like Ifrit/Bahamut etc. which Ultimecia found, or whether she summoned it out of Squall's mind. I feel the former is more likely, but they both have merits.

Ultimecia may have found out about Griever from Rinoa when she possessed her. Or, perhaps Ultimecia read it out of a history book, or a book on GFs, or Squall's autobiography. One cannot prove that one way or another either, although it is definitely probable that Ultimecia found out through Rinoa.

But, I don't know how that shows Rinoa is Ultimecia.

During Rinoa's conservation with Squall about the ring, you will get the chance to name it (default is Griever). You also get the same chance to name other GFs, which probably show that Griever was a GF after all (due to the name choosing). But what's the point of having an non-existent GF in the whole game (apart from Ultimecia summoning it) and why did you have to name Griever when it's part of the story and not gameplay? GFs are meant to assist in battles controlled by your characters, Griever certainly didn't assist that job. Holding Griever didn't make Squall stronger either, in fact he's almost emotional at all the time. So that may rise a possibility that the main purpose of Griever is to be awaken until Ultimecia has summoned it, basically.

Or there's another possibility that Square Enix wanted to make Griever as the final GF for game play purposes but then they have changed mind, so they have put Griever into the final battle. This possibility doesn't seem to be likely, but who knows?

[BG-57]

Considering how some GFs can be drawn from enemy bosses, it's possible that Ultimecia drew Griever from Squall (or perhaps someone else). It seems that bosses that hold GFs cannot actually summon them.

I like the idea of Griever existing before Squall's visit to the castle, but I don't know if it can be proven either way.

[Saber]

I wonder where future_esthar is. Anyways I've never believed R=U but some points Serapy says makes since. Way to go Serapy!!

Oh yeah I would like to see a whole bunch of R=U believers to dish out their "theories" at one time. That

[Hyperion4444]

The closest I see the R=U theory is that, indeed, Ultimecia did in fact inhereted Rinoa's powers. (From Sorceress to Sorceress to Sorceress.....)

I have a much better and 100% logical on all of this Sorceress deal.
but I won't tell.

[Serapy]

Thanks guys! Please criticise me if I'm wrong some how.


The closest I see the R=U theory is that, indeed, Ultimecia did in fact inhereted Rinoa's powers. (From Sorceress to Sorceress to Sorceress.....)

I have a much better and 100% logical on all of this Sorceress deal.
but I won't tell.

Please tell! I beg you!

[Hyperion4444]

Thanks guys! Please criticise me if I'm wrong some how.


The closest I see the R=U theory is that, indeed, Ultimecia did in fact inhereted Rinoa's powers. (From Sorceress to Sorceress to Sorceress.....)

I have a much better and 100% logical on all of this Sorceress deal.
but I won't tell.

Please tell! I beg you!

Huh?!

Ultimecia is not Rinoa, but her Sorceress powers may as well be her decendant. She must haved received her powers from some Sorceress, not directly either, of course. But transcended from Sorceress Rinoa to Sorceress to Sorceress to Sorceress... eventually Ultimecia.
And that would make sence since we know when a Sorceress dies, she gives her Sorceress powers to another Sorceress.

I also have a theory, heh, I guess I won't tell.

[ReloadPsi]

For those wanting to debunk the notion that Ultimecia created Griever, it's actually true. She did. The idea of a GF seems to be some kind of translation error; the French version, directly retranslated from Japanese clearly has Ultimecia stating that she can create the ultimate monster based on their thoughts, making them fall victim to their own imaginations. Scanning Griever reveals "In Squall's mind, the ultimate GF" because in his head, Griever is what he aspires to.

Short version: Griever's not a GF. He's a figure that Squall idolises.

However, given that Ultimecia's capable of possessing another body via Junction Machine Ellone, it stands to reason she'd learn about the importance of Griever just by entering Rinoa's body and mind. The only bit of Rinoa that Ultimecia actually has is her powers, handed down over generations of Sorceresses. Rinoa doesn't gain any of Edea's or Adel's memories through inheriting their powers, so I doubt Ultimecia gets any of Rinoa's memories.

Short version: Ultimecia's had access to Rinoa's thoughts. Rinoa also idolises this "Griever".

The other thing is, she's an insanely powerful Sorceress who can pretty much do whatever the hell she wants. If it means casting a spell that causes the party to think of and subsequently create the one thing that could truly kick the crap out of them, it shall be done. Remember Ghostbusters? Gozer tells them that whatever they imagine will be what comes to kill them.

I still 100% oppose R=U, but I totally agree that Griever is significant. That was established early on.

Little note: Griever's name is "Cronos" in the French version, and Ultimecia is into Time Magic... maybe there's another connection somewhere else? I know he was called Griever in Japan (or something to that effect; it was transliterated) but it makes you wonder what the translators had to work with...

[Serapy]

Yes, since Star and Lion symbolisms are both Heroic, it's no doubt that Rinoa idolises Lion (Griever).

[thePSgamer]

When I said "disprove my theory with information", it can be either evidence based or not.


Rinoa: Hmm...so this L I O N of yours, does it have a name?

Squall: Of course. Griever.

Rinoa: So that's what you call it. You know Zell said he'll make me one
exactly like it. Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too. That'd
be crazy, huh!? I mean, everyone might, y'know, get the wrong idea
about us.It implies that she actually likes the norm of Griever. At that time, she wasn't possessed, either. I don't recall any event that Squall has told Rinoa about Griever or implied things about Griever (strength and pride) WHILE she was possessed.
So, how did Ulti knew about Griever? She CAN'T manfiest Griever out of Squall WITHOUT knowing the existence of Griever in the first place, see what I mean? Rinoa IS the only person who knew about Griever, Squall even told her the name.
I don't think Ulti has the ability to read Squall's mind, so how? That's why my theory seem to make sense, Rinoa is Ultimecia and created Griever due to her insanity. I'm not saying it's TRUE but it seems very plausible to me.

In the game, when Rinoa was possessed, she went absolutely mad in the space station = insanity.
So if Rinoa is Ulimecia, she will become insane and creates Griever because she acknowledged Griever from Squall in the first place. Insanity = leads to unpredictable things.

There are a lot of evidences that Squall has careless attitudes against his friends, including Rinoa. Yet, as the story goes on, Rinoa always became on Squall's side, caring about him, loving him, etc. Does that sound odd? With my theory, it doesn't seem odd to me anymore.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1869/sawwq8.gif

She saw it, good faith has returned, after that event, Squall has found her. That's because of Griever, when she looked at Griever, she thinks of strength and pride, so she got good hope.

-------

Adel grabbed Rinoa.
Rinoa passed out.

When she woke up, this dialogue imploded:


Rinoa: I...was inside Adel... The young Adel...and then Laguna said Ulti was inside Adel. That seems Suspicious.

You know, the whole event when Adel woke up. The monsters started fleeing from the moon. Yes, the moon where it symbolizes Griever. Seems Suspicious as well.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8643/whokm3.gif

I wonder who is that? A new witch in the future? She has similar wings as Ulti, Edea and Adel. Shiva is naked, that woman in the picture also seems to be naked, hmm.

Theres only one problem with this theory. Rinoa was NOT the only one that knew about griever. Matron/Edea also knew about griever because she was the one that gave it to Squall. Where it originated from is what should be debated.

[Serapy]

When I said "disprove my theory with information", it can be either evidence based or not.


Rinoa: Hmm...so this L I O N of yours, does it have a name?

Squall: Of course. Griever.

Rinoa: So that's what you call it. You know Zell said he'll make me one
exactly like it. Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too. That'd
be crazy, huh!? I mean, everyone might, y'know, get the wrong idea
about us.It implies that she actually likes the norm of Griever. At that time, she wasn't possessed, either. I don't recall any event that Squall has told Rinoa about Griever or implied things about Griever (strength and pride) WHILE she was possessed.
So, how did Ulti knew about Griever? She CAN'T manfiest Griever out of Squall WITHOUT knowing the existence of Griever in the first place, see what I mean? Rinoa IS the only person who knew about Griever, Squall even told her the name.
I don't think Ulti has the ability to read Squall's mind, so how? That's why my theory seem to make sense, Rinoa is Ultimecia and created Griever due to her insanity. I'm not saying it's TRUE but it seems very plausible to me.

In the game, when Rinoa was possessed, she went absolutely mad in the space station = insanity.
So if Rinoa is Ulimecia, she will become insane and creates Griever because she acknowledged Griever from Squall in the first place. Insanity = leads to unpredictable things.

There are a lot of evidences that Squall has careless attitudes against his friends, including Rinoa. Yet, as the story goes on, Rinoa always became on Squall's side, caring about him, loving him, etc. Does that sound odd? With my theory, it doesn't seem odd to me anymore.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1869/sawwq8.gif

She saw it, good faith has returned, after that event, Squall has found her. That's because of Griever, when she looked at Griever, she thinks of strength and pride, so she got good hope.

-------

Adel grabbed Rinoa.
Rinoa passed out.

When she woke up, this dialogue imploded:


Rinoa: I...was inside Adel... The young Adel...and then Laguna said Ulti was inside Adel. That seems Suspicious.

You know, the whole event when Adel woke up. The monsters started fleeing from the moon. Yes, the moon where it symbolizes Griever. Seems Suspicious as well.

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8643/whokm3.gif

I wonder who is that? A new witch in the future? She has similar wings as Ulti, Edea and Adel. Shiva is naked, that woman in the picture also seems to be naked, hmm.

Theres only one problem with this theory. Rinoa was NOT the only one that knew about griever. Matron/Edea also knew about griever because she was the one that gave it to Squall. Where it originated from is what should be debated.

Regarding the "Where it orinated from ..." statement, I think I have a made theory about that one last year. Here`s the link (http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-viii/118437-artemisia-qm-theory.html). Basically, it explains the possibility of why the symbolisms of Rinoa`s and Squall`s have existed in the game. After having deep thought into the theory, the comparisons are striking, don`t you think? I have a strong feeling that SquareSoft have heard about the history of Artemisia and Mausolus, and then they have decided to use that concept for Final Fantasy VIII. I also believe that they made Ultimecia purely just to emphasise the concept/also the whole game more.

For gameplay purposes, I believe that SquareSoft initially wanted players to play as Griever. In-game, it prompts you a screen to re-name Griever if you desire so, which shows the same thing for the other GFs. SquareSoft have changed thier mind about this implemention; withdrawing Griever from the gameplay. This implies that they wanted to emphasise Griever more in terms of storyline instead. If they removed Griever out of the gameplay, why didn`t they also remove the 'Re-name Griever' function? My theory has a say about that one as well.

[champagne supernova]

I have a strong feeling that SquareSoft have heard about the history about Artemisia and Mausolus, and then they have decided to use that concept for Final Fantasy VIII.

Do you think they heard about the real history, or the pseudo-history that R=U believers have created for themselves?

[Serapy]

I have a strong feeling that SquareSoft have heard about the history about Artemisia and Mausolus, and then they have decided to use that concept for Final Fantasy VIII.

Do you think they heard about the real history, or the pseudo-history that R=U believers have created for themselves?

I doubt it. If they have never heard of Artemisia and Mausolus before, then they must be EXTREMELY lucky to make the elements of Squall/Rinoa/Ultimecia become a pure coincidence by accident, which is rather unlikely, don`t you think? There are so many religious stuff in the game, so they must have heard of these before as well.

[thePSgamer]

BY THE WAY SERAPY:


I don't think Ulti has the ability to read Squall's mind, so how? That's why my theory seem to make sense, Rinoa is Ultimecia and created Griever due to her insanity. I'm not saying it's TRUE but it seems very plausible to me.

Actually you are wrong with this theory. Ultimecia DOES have the abilities to read other peoples minds. Its in the ultimania guide, and on the official final fantasy wikia

Quoting from the Ultimania Guide:


The creation of Griever delves into another remarkable skill Ultimecia possesses, her ability to manifest and give life to subconscious thoughts, including Guardian Forces. Ultimecia manifested and extracted Griever from Squall's subconscious mind. She found Griever to be Squall's conception of the most powerful force that could exist, and thus brought him to life for battle against Squall himself. Griever did not exist as a Guardian Force until the moment he was given life through Ultimecia's powers.

My theory:

Ultimecia can look into peoples minds. She does this when she looks into her own mind to create her ultimate spell. Whats from stopping her looking into squalls mind and finding griever? So NO, I 100% don't believe griever came from Rinoa.

Why? Well Squall is the "legendary SeeD" right? Why wouldn't ultimecia look into his mind to find the ultimate ideal that drives squall and then use it against him?

Flaw #1 in the R=U Theory.

Next, we have the sorceress lifespan. As you all know from the Ultimania guide sorceress live normal lifespans. How in the world could Rinoa live on for generations? I think its pretty stupid to say that HEY since theres no other soceresses ever to come about again after rinoa shes gonna live forever! I think this is undoubtly the dumbest arguement there is for the R=U theory.

Flaw #2 in the R=U Theory.

Another thing comes to mind when Ultimecia possess rinoa to go break Adel out of her seal. She then LEAVES rinoa out in space to die. Now this idea can be taken in two ways, ultimecia would effectively be killling herself in fact she was rinoa, OR she knew who she was and knew what was going to happen. Now riddle me this, if she knew what was going to happen (i.e squall saving rinoa) how does she not know Squall or Rinoa when they get to her castle? AND how does she NOT know that Squall and the gang are going to use time compression to get to her castle? Then again with this argument can be debated over the 2 universes arugment. However I believe that is way too technically detailed to get into, and that its being blown out of proportions. My take on it is if there was a 2nd universe, then time compression would cause a alternate timeline when they returned to there time. Like I said its way to complicated for even a games stand point, and I think its totally absurd.

The 3rd Flaw in the R=U Theory.

The 4th flaw is my own judgement on the R=U Theory. I think its totally, and utterly absurd. There are some common happenings but nothing concrete for evidence; hence Rinoa != Ultimecia and this was just a ploy be Squaresoft to get people to talk about there game...A DECADE LATER. Thats what makes it such a good game.


I could go on and on about my theories and what-not but I want to see my ideals get debated.

Finally, its a love story with a happy ending. Lets just leave it at that? :)

[Serapy]

There is no point in agruing about R=U because it`s impossible to know for sure. Determing whether the theory is 100% proven correct or incorrect is impossible. We have been there a lot before. We can agrue about R=U everyday, it will become endless and endless till our world drops from the universe for good. In the past, I have agrued about the validity of R=U many times that it`s wrong. Guess what? I became dissatisfied, because things went out of no where. You know what I did next? I`ve begun agruing that R=U is right on a different forum. Guess what? I get the same result, exactly the same result when I was agruing that R=U is wrong. I have provided evidence on both sides too. I do not wish to go into this again.



Actually you are wrong with this theory. Ultimecia DOES have the abilities to read other peoples minds. Its in the ultimania guide, and on the official final fantasy wikia

I`ll comment on this statement since it doesn`t relate to R=U.

Anyway, no, not exactly. If Ultimecia can read people minds with ease, then Final Fantasy VIII would be a completely different story. She needs to possesses someone IN ORDER to read his/her mind. Squall didn`t get possessed by herself.

However, Rinoa acknowledged that Griever is such of utmost importance to Squall because he told her about it. Later in the game, she gets possessed by Ultimecia. It`s very likely that Ultimecia have learnt something about Griever and used it as her defence at the end of the game. The "strongest GF in the mind of Squall " quote was an assumption that Ultimecia has made when reading Rinoa`s mind.

Also, when Ultimecia possessed Matron. She learnt something about Ellone since Ellone used to be in care of Marton at the orphanage. That's how Ultimecia has begun looking for her.

[thePSgamer]

There is no point in agruing about R=U because it`s impossible to know for sure. Determing whether the theory is 100% proven correct or incorrect is impossible. We have been there a lot before. We can agrue about R=U everyday, it will become endless and endless till our world drops from the universe for good. In the past, I have agrued about the validity of R=U many times that it`s wrong. Guess what? I became dissatisfied, because things went out of no where. You know what I did next? I`ve begun agruing that R=U is right on a different forum. Guess what? I get the same result, exactly the same result when I was agruing that R=U is wrong. I have provided evidence on both sides too. I do not wish to go into this again.



Actually you are wrong with this theory. Ultimecia DOES have the abilities to read other peoples minds. Its in the ultimania guide, and on the official final fantasy wikia

I`ll comment on this statement since it doesn`t relate to R=U.

Anyway, no, not exactly. If Ultimecia can read people minds with ease, then Final Fantasy VIII would be a completely different story. She needs to possesses someone IN ORDER to read his/her mind. Squall didn`t get possessed by herself.

However, Rinoa acknowledged that Griever is such of utmost importance to Squall because he told her about it. Later in the game, she gets possessed by Ultimecia. It`s very likely that Ultimecia have learnt something about Griever and used it as her defence at the end of the game. The "strongest GF in the mind of Squall " quote was an assumption that Ultimecia has made when reading Rinoa`s mind.

Also, when Ultimecia possessed Matron. She learnt something about Ellone since Ellone used to be in care of Marton at the orphanage. That's how Ultimecia has begun looking for her.

For what I said is debatable yes, but your last state about Ultimecia not knowing about Ellone is totally incorrect. If you remember what Odine says, she (meaning ultimecia) has the machine Junction Ellone. So yes she probably does have SOME idea of who Ellone is, and that is her reason and her way to get her mind into the past.

However I do agree with you that there is no point arguing the theory, even though its fun to debate :)

[hyperionknight2001]

rinoa ultimecia edea adel are all witches and when rinoa was possesed the images of squall i.e. griever flooded into her mind which in turn flooded into the minds of the other witches and when you fight ultimecia she uses the image of griever to try and scare squall and rinoa into backing down from the fight it's that simple people

[Michael Tsarion]

Actually you are wrong with this theory. Ultimecia DOES have the abilities to read other peoples minds. Its in the ultimania guide, and on the official final fantasy wikia





The Ultimania books are not canon. Neither is anything that is said, written or otherwise stated in any way by Square Enix when concerning the Square (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_Co.) Final Fantasy series of games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Square_games).


The Ultimania books for VII and VIII are both utter travesties, flabbergastingly ludicrous, replete with contradictions and nonsensical absurdities.

I do think, that it is interesting to note, that often when people are having a debate concerning some part of the plot of VII or VIII, people tend to point to the Ultimania books when defending their personal opinion regarding the game. And in nearly every case, it is done so to help support some absurd idea that only exists outside the actual game, and which often even directly contradicts the already established content of the game itself, defying the apparent and obvious things contained within the game's story.

And yet they, the books, are still continued to be used. And in the same manner. Amusing.

Yes, the books themselves can be pretty amusing. Especially the VII Ultimania. If you've played the game, then I suggest you read the book just to be amazed at the level of distortions, preposterous claims, and the plainly erroneous nature of it.

But what makes it amusing, is that people point to them and quote them. The actual books themselves are not funny in any way.

So, yes - of course - the Ultimania books do not apply here nor anywhere else. They may perhaps be considered something of a fanfictious-like third-party retconning attempt, but that's about it. And if you seek expanded FF universes, there's a lot of actual independent fanfic writers out there who've done a much better job of that than what has been construed together by Square Enix.


Anyway, there's also no official FF wiki. Even if there was one, and it had been labeled and declared "official" by Square Enix, then, that wouldn't really change anything; for as humanity is beginning to re-discover, just because something is "official" doesn't mean it's actually true or right; in fact, more than often, the opposite is the case.




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[Serapy]

For what I said is debatable yes, but your last state about Ultimecia not knowing about Ellone is totally incorrect. If you remember what Odine says, she (meaning ultimecia) has the machine Junction Ellone. So yes she probably does have SOME idea of who Ellone is, and that is her reason and her way to get her mind into the past.

Just because Ultimecia uses the power, it doesn`t mean she automatically acknowledges the minds of everybody existing in the world. Targetting and focusing on the power does not grant Ultimecia to learn everything else inside Ellone`s mind. She needs to possesses Ellone in order to acknowledge her mind, but that can`t be possible because Ellone is not a sorceress. The only time she learnt about Ellone was when she possessed Matron since Ellone was in Matron`s orphanage. It`s very likely that Matron knew about Ellone's power. And that`s why Ellone left the orphanage so early.

Nonetheless, if what you said was the case. The goals of Ultimecia`s would be reached EARLIER!

Michael Tsarion, you have got that very spot on. That is why people should not use the excuse (Ultimania guide) to disbelieve R=U.