Eureka!

[Quindiana Jones]

Whilst thinking on who my favourite character of this game is, I realised something. I realised why this game doesn't have such a profound effect on me as the others.

The answer to who my favourite character is? I don't care. That's it. That's the answer. And that is why this game means less to me.

Before you all wet yourselves, I'd just like to point out that this game is one of only a few games that I will never get rid of. But, gun to head, if I was to get rid of either FF7, FF9 or FF12, 12 would go. Why? What makes this game less valuable to me than the others? Is it the strange new gameplay? No. That rules. Totally kicking for the PS2. Is it the storyline? No. That's not great but it's easily bearable.

It's the characters. I don't feel as attached to the characters as I do in the other games. I'm not sure why, I just don't. It could be because I don't get to name them, maybe. In 7 and 9, I always had the first main characters (Cloud and Zidane) with my name, to make me feel like I was in the game. Therefore, it made the in-game situations easily transferable due to one step being able to be skipped. In 12, you can't do this due to the voice acting. But I don't think it's just that.

Anyhoo, I want to know what it is about this game that makes it mean less to you than your other FF's at home. I'd especially like to hear from those who think it means more. And I guess those who don't like the game can throw a penny my way too ("raeh raeh raeh gambits").

[Skyblade]

The writing for the voice acting is really inconsistent at times, what really kills it for me is the gameplay. Don't get me wrong, the combination Gambit/Command menu system works quite well, even if I do prefer the standard ATB system. But the really powerful enemies, despite their massive health bars, huge sizes, and powerful attacks, don't feel "epic", they feel cheap. Sorry, but the only thing that makes those enemies a threat is that the entire battle system gets junked. Shields don't block attacks anymore, and you get hit by instant death attacks that you have no way to defend against. Sorry, but being hit by unblockable normal attacks and then getting killed 'cause that attack inflicts death and there is no equipment or ability in the game that can prevent it, that's not a boss I enjoy fighting. I think it shows just how broken the new combat system is if that is the only way they can make fights difficult.

There was also the way some of the later enemies had special attacks that would keep you from using magic until they finished. These attacks, such as the Bakanamy's Sandstorm, are just as broken. You can't heal or use any buffing magic during those attacks, and they can chain 3 or 4 in a row. And, while you can't apply buffs, buffs can wear out. If you want attacks to be uninterruptible and to not have their animations interrupted, then bring back turn based combat. Otherwise, nothing short of Death, Stop, Petrification, or the Esper's super attacks should keep me from performing any actions, especially if I can be attacked in the meantime.

The game was ok, but the battle system in the later levels just ruined it for me. There are some battles that truly shine, but the more I play, the less fun it gets. Probably my perfectionist nature that doesn't like my characters getting killed has something to do with it, but you should always have a chance to survive. After playing an entire game without using a Phoenix Down or Life spell, having to use 50 to get through a boss fight doesn't make that fight "epic", it makes it pathetic.

[Clawsze]

FF12 is basically a template for FF13's battle system. Just like how 10 was a template for future FF's in 3D. So as such, chacters etc. are ditched for awesome gameplay.

[Skyblade]

FF12 is basically a template for FF13's battle system. Just like how 10 was a template for future FF's in 3D. So as such, chacters etc. are ditched for awesome gameplay.

Um, how was 10 a template for future FF gameplay? X-2 used a different system. So did XI. So did XII.

And, sorry, but XII's gameplay was so not worth it.

[Marky Tee]

your right about the characters Harle quinn
though i dont think any game ever will have characters that mean as much to me as the cast of ff9
sure oher installments have great characters too
but 9's are as close to pefection as the series will get

in my opinion

[Dr. Acula]

It could be because I don't get to name them, maybe. In 7 and 9, I always had the first main characters (Cloud and Zidane) with my name, to make me feel like I was in the game. Therefore, it made the in-game situations easily transferable due to one step being able to be skipped. In 12, you can't do this due to the voice acting. But I don't think it's just that.


I agree. I almost always name at least one character after myself.

[Big D]

FFVII remains my favourite in terms of character - they all get to take centre stage for a while, gaining a lot of backstory and a crucial role to the plot. None of the other games have managed that, in my opinion. However, FFXII just takes a wholly different approach: the focus is on the world around the characters, and the events that they live through. That's why the 'character-building' stuff is usually much more subtle, often unspoken and indirect, instead of being the central focus. The developers tried to take a fresh perspective, and succeeded. It's not my favourite kind of storytelling, but they still did it fantastically well.

As for combat... the depth and customisation in FFXII's combat was handled well, I believe. I'd challenge anyone to name a Final Fantasy in which the combat isn't ultimately "broken" when the characters are over-levelled and have their ultimate equipment, while retaining the same degree of player-controlled flexibility.

[marysonnie]

While I like a LOT of characters in this game, I don't like them AS much as I have liked other characters in Final Fantasies past. The fact there really is no main character (despite Balthier's proclamations) kinda messes with me; I'm used to liking secondary characters and all six are pretty much developed to the same extent, with a slight emphasis on Vaan and Ashe (though not much of one).

I think Larsa's pretty brilliant; if guests were controllable I'd be a lot happier with the game. The fact guests couldn't level up (and due to my level grinding, they often became HUGE liabilities) really irked me.

While it's kind of nice there is no "main" character in the sense that there was in FF7, FF8, and FF9, it's kind of a bummer, too.

[Tabris]

Yeah, some of the characters I didn't really care that much about either (Vaan and Penelo), but I found others really interesting again (Balthier and Fran), not to mention that Ashe was a breath of fresh air after years of kind, mild and sweet female FF-characters.

But to me, this game was so great when it came to gameplay, the world, the story, the battle system and the sidequests that me not caring about two lesser important characters were a minor problem.

[Clawsze]

FF12 is basically a template for FF13's battle system. Just like how 10 was a template for future FF's in 3D. So as such, chacters etc. are ditched for awesome gameplay.

Um, how was 10 a template for future FF gameplay? X-2 used a different system. So did XI. So did XII.

And, sorry, but XII's gameplay was so not worth it.

I was refering to the 3D style of it and the amound of detail in things, not the gameplay -_-.

[PeneloRatsbane]

this game is a breath of fresh air, it looks good and its fun to play, the other fighting bit on the ones prior were boring, this way is fun

[Dynast-Kid]

However, FFXII just takes a wholly different approach: the focus is on the world around the characters, and the events that they live through. That's why the 'character-building' stuff is usually much more subtle, often unspoken and indirect, instead of being the central focus. The developers tried to take a fresh perspective, and succeeded. It's not my favourite kind of storytelling, but they still did it fantastically well.


I completely agree with this statement. If memory serves correct, every game in the series involves the main characters fighting and struggling to defend the world from some antagonistic presence. In my opinion, a game like that (especially on FFXII's scale) should have more focus on the events and situations the characters experience, rather than building the character's up emotionally. So, it's not necessarily failure on the part of the writers, it's a different perspective.
Although FFXII never brought me to tears like FFX did, it certainly left me satisfied!

You also may not feel attached to the character's because of the lack of clearly defined good and evil roles. Most games present you with a group of undeniable good guys, while they're enemies are some dark and evil force. However, that's completely taken out of FFXII and replaced with a story of simple political intrigue. Both parties have ultimately the same goal: conquer the other and take control of more territory. Just because the Princess wants Dalmasca back doesn't make her good, and just because the Prince wants to conquer Dalmasca doesn't make him evil. This idea could've probably been taken alot farther had nethicite and all that jazz been onitted.

Also, the game put kind of a spin on the archetypes we've come to expect. Especially since there is no hyper, spazzy teen girl! The character traits seemed to have been very balanced in everyone, but still made the character's retain a sort of individuality.

For example, Fran, who looks like the fiery, yet sweet-natured sexpot (i.e. Tifa, Lulu etc.) takes on the role as the wise and experienced master. Penelo, who looks like the upbeat, hyper, peppy teen (i.e. Rikku, Yuffie etc.) takes on the role of the gentle and kind support. Things like that make this game extra dear to me!

And, like Tabris said, Ashe is an exceptionally well-written character! From the pre-release artwork all the way to the early FMVs, I was convinced that Ashe would be the timid and shy female who took almost a back-seat approach to the whole journey, like Yuna, or Aerith. But boy was I wrong! When we met "Amalia" I found out that Ashe could be a bossy bitch! And as the game progressed, she became almost unlikeable at some points! It's this sort of extremely realistic molding of an old archetype that really sets FFXII apart from the rest!

[Big D]

Also, the game put kind of a spin on the archetypes we've come to expect. Especially since there is no hyper, spazzy teen girl! The character traits seemed to have been very balanced in everyone, but still made the character's retain a sort of individuality.

For example, Fran, who looks like the fiery, yet sweet-natured sexpot (i.e. Tifa, Lulu etc.) takes on the role as the wise and experienced master. Penelo, who looks like the upbeat, hyper, peppy teen (i.e. Rikku, Yuffie etc.) takes on the role of the gentle and kind support. Things like that make this game extra dear to me!My turn to agree completely:D

It's probably already been said, but FFXII's also pretty unique for its lack of a genuine threat to the world's existence. There's no evil mage/warrior/witch who wants to become all-powerful by annihilating the world, which means that the heroes can't solve all their problems just by hitting the appropriate person with a sword several times. The actual struggle is for control, as well as survival - control of national identity and destiny, and control of the world's destiny. Taking back the 'reins of history', to use the game's description.

I haven't replayed FFXII yet, but I'm looking forward to it, so I can enjoy the richness of the dialogue and the plot again, perhaps even more than the first time through.

[Quindiana Jones]

I agree with both y'all. And I loved the whole no good-no evil theme. It was a refreshing turn on the typical FF story. It's good to see Square not just go with the old "if it ain't broke, don't fix it approach" like some games. They always try to do something different, which is probably why the FFs kick so much ass.

I also liked the whole Bestiary story part, and the attention that was thrown onto the world of Ivalice. I just wish they could have put the same amount in a nice, blunt way onto the characters.

And, seriously, someone's gotta invent a decent word recognition thing. That'd be truly magnificent. If you could type in any word and have it read nice and proper.....oh yeah. :bigsmile:

[Skyblade]

And, seriously, someone's gotta invent a decent word recognition thing. That'd be truly magnificent. If you could type in any word and have it read nice and proper.....oh yeah. :bigsmile:

I'm guessing you're making that suggestion to allow naming characters in a game with voice acting (if I'm wrong, please say so). Unfortunately, that wouldn't really do any good. The computer doesn't make the voices, the voice actors do. Every single voice acted line in the game would have to be rerecorded over and over for every possible word. That is a lot of storage space that is essentially wasted. Even having the computer do it wouldn't help much, because while we could recognize and synthesize speech for hundreds of words fairly easily, getting them in something other than a standard monotone would be insanely difficult. When a character is ticked off at your main character, they say your name in a very different way then if they're calling for help. The amount of variation that would lead to for thousands of word possibilities makes it totally unfeasible. For a long time, if we have games with voice acting, we'll be stuck with either unnamed characters (ie: Tidus), or ones with set names.

Anyway, I disagree with the "there is no definite bad guy/good guy" thing. Vayne may not have been trying to literally destroy the world, and may have been facing off against the Occuria, who are none to righteous themselves, but that doesn't make him any less of a psychotic villain. And just because she's leading a war doesn't make Ashe any less of a hero.

The plot was ok. A bit politics heavy, but since the majority of those politics were "ooh, let's see how we can assassinate our enemies now" rather than "let's solve this diplomatically and have a nice sing-song", I don't mind nearly as much as I do most other stories with heavy politics.

The biggest problem in my mind was the gameplay. I never had a problem with turn-based combat, and I still don't. I also don't have a problem with the basics of the gambit system and preset enemies. But when the system has to be thrown out the window in order to make your bosses "hard", I think there is something seriously wrong with it. I'll look forward to seeing if they fix the problems with the system in future FFs, but my hopes aren't high.

[Roogle]

And, like Tabris said, Ashe is an exceptionally well-written character! From the pre-release artwork all the way to the early FMVs, I was convinced that Ashe would be the timid and shy female who took almost a back-seat approach to the whole journey, like Yuna, or Aerith. But boy was I wrong! When we met "Amalia" I found out that Ashe could be a bossy bitch! And as the game progressed, she became almost unlikeable at some points! It's this sort of extremely realistic molding of an old archetype that really sets FFXII apart from the rest!

I agree with you. I think that it was unfortunate that we did not get to see the characters fleshed out more through their interactions with each other and the environment.

Ashe is a unique heroine in the series, but I think that the way the game is structured, she is not comparable to other heroines in the series whose events revolve around them. The party could have gotten by with Ashe being a helpless diplomat or a sword-wielding cavalier. Do you know what I mean?

[Renmiri]

Characters were a breath of fresh air to be sure... Just not my cup of tea. Innovating for the sake of being different didn't fly with me. I miss characters I could care about. Those were too bland to either hate or care.

[Bolivar]

And, seriously, someone's gotta invent a decent word recognition thing. That'd be truly magnificent. If you could type in any word and have it read nice and proper.....oh yeah. :bigsmile:

Anyway, I disagree with the "there is no definite bad guy/good guy" thing. Vayne may not have been trying to literally destroy the world, and may have been facing off against the Occuria, who are none to righteous themselves, but that doesn't make him any less of a psychotic villain. And just because she's leading a war doesn't make Ashe any less of a hero.


Skyblade, you beat me to it and hit the nail on the head.

If you think the main idea conveyed in Ivalice-based Final Fantasy games is that "there is only a gray area", then you are a Yatsumi Matsuno character stuck inside one of his games. The central story in XII (and Tactics also) chronicled how the protagonists are able to rise above the moral ambiguity that engulfs their world, and resolve that the ends do not always justify the means. There's a reason why The Pharos was presented as the most important scene in the game - both Ashe and Vaan abandon their ties to a morally ambiguous world, they both forsake blind revenge.

I feel FFXII did have a great story that could make you care about the characters - it was just too little, and too late by the end of the game. The main story feels rather short, but more than anything the amount of content away from story or any character side-story vastly outweighs any attention they put to the characters, and its easy to forget what your current objective is or why you should care.

After 3 playthroughs I do like all the characters very much, especially Ashe for some of the above reasons, and others people pointed out. In nearly every FF beforehand, all the female leads are innocent and/or have a strong sense of justice, and are dependent on men. Ashe is selfish, impolite, her pride is her weakness and at the beginning of the game she is wholly consumed by her bloodthirsty quest for revenge. It's actually kinda hot. Anyways, at the end you get a sense of how much she has matured, and not just into adulthood. I think she had one of the better character archs of the series, and it's cool it happened to a chick; makes me less tense about FFXIII.