PDA

View Full Version : Grammar



LunarWeaver
04-14-2008, 08:38 PM
I thought maybe we could have a thread for grammar questions or something. They pop up now and then, at least for me. Unless it's just mine and nobody else will ever post here xD.

So I had an assignment to write this thing for a lovely lady named Cassidy, who is basically a teacher. And I think I use the proper em dashes, colons, sentences, commas, and semi-colons, but maybe not. Let me give a random example:

You should read this. It's my favorite book.

You should read this, it's my favorite book.

You should read this: it's my favorite book. Or is it "It's" with a capital?

You should read this; it's my favorite book.

You should read this — it's my favorite book.


I'm tilted to the colon. Can't a colon be used to explain logic behind the previous statement? Doesn't it explain why you should read it? All I know is Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows was colon palooza, and now I question it all. I see peeps using semi-colons everywhere, though.

I know you could turn this sentence into something much simpler, but I'm going for the question, so... Gotta complicate the matter. I think, maybe it's a bad example :jess:.

Flying Mullet
04-14-2008, 08:48 PM
It's too bad Dr. Unne's not a regular poster anymore. He was as anal-retentive as they get about grammar and could set everyone straight in this thread about anything related to grammar.

scrumpleberry
04-14-2008, 09:32 PM
It's too bad Dr. Unne's not a regular poster anymore. He was as anal-retentive as they get about grammar and could set everyone straight in this thread about anything related to grammar.

Don't worry Mullet. There's plenty of gramatical anal-retentiveness left in EoFF to go around. I'm sure there is.

Gramatically anal-retentive people, we're calling you to our aid..!

Personally, I'm a hyphen fan. I'd steer well clear of that semicolon. The full stop is okay but doesn't flow as nicely.

rubah
04-14-2008, 09:32 PM
colons are for separating lists. The second part should never been an entire clause. If you use it to explain your previous statements, then you're just lying to yourself by not using a semi-colon.

Ouch!
04-14-2008, 09:45 PM
I'll quote the rules for colon and dash usage from The Elements of Style. "Use a colon after an independent clause to introduce a list of particulars, an appositive, an amplification, or an illustrative quotation." This instance would qualify as an amplification, so a colon would be acceptable. Using a colon in this manner, however, has become quite uncommon. I would suggest that you use a semicolon instead, as it seems to have completely eclipsed colon usage for this purpose.

Strictly speaking, the only incorrect punctuation listed above is the comma which must be used with a conjunction. Otherwise, it's a comma splice. The use of a dash is arguably acceptable, depending on your intent. "Use a dash to set off an abrupt break or interruption, and to announce a long appositive or summary." Depending on how you intend the second independent clause to be read, using a dash would be appropriate.

Anyway, of the options given, I'd use a semicolon, although both the colon and full stop are also acceptable.

Edit: Do not capitalize after the colon.

LunarWeaver
04-14-2008, 10:04 PM
I'm all with rubah in the sense of lists. Which is what I thought they were for, besides the whole time thing, such as 1:32. I've mostly only ever used it to set off a list. Occasionally something like "Then he said it: Blah blah blah".

But let me pull some sentences from the book I referenced:


"Stop — STOP!" Harry shouted, but as he looked back again two jets of green light flew past his left ear: Four Death Eaters were keeping up with the bike; more curses shot after them, and Harry had to sink low into the sidecar to avoid them.


Harry saw the Death Eaters swerve out of sight to avoid the deadly trail of flame, and at the same time felt the sidecar sway ominously: Its metal connections to the bike had splintered with the force of acceleration.


He did it instinctively, without any sort of plan, because he hated the sight of her walking alone into the dungeon: As the door began to swing closed, he slipped into the courtroom behind her.

Why the hell is she using colons everywhere? I'm reading this Stephen King book Cell and he used one like that somewhere as well. I tried to find that example but I couldn't >[

And on Wikipedia it says:


As a rule, however, a colon informs the reader that what follows proves and explains, or simply enumerates elements of what is referred to before.

But then I was taught a semi-colon is to emphasize the connection, more so than a conjunction. Which does make sense here. If I had to guess on some essay that was important, I figure I would go with semi-colon in the end.

Edit: Oh wait, I just read Ouch!'s post. So, what, it's kind of up to me. Grammar pisses me off.

Ouch!
04-14-2008, 10:06 PM
See my quotes above from The Elements of Style; you do not require a more definitive handbook for usage rules.

Edit: You would do well not to use Rowling as a guide for grammar rules. She's not exactly the best writer to ever touch a pen to a napkin.

Edit 2: After noticing that LunarWeaver has noticed my previous post, I have only one thing to say: the beauty of grammar is that there are multiple ways to punctuate the same sentence properly. Each of these various choices, however, will deliver a message differently. As mentioned earlier, the dash would imply an abrupt break. The reader would be queued to read the sentence and then break into the second clause--like so. A semicolon is the most formal of the options; it establishes a definitive break. The full stop does not attempt to visually connect the two clauses. It functions as the most blatant of breaks. The colon is somewhat less casual than the semicolon in this instance: it does not suggest a significant pause, and most closely ties the two clauses together. See what I mean?

Yar
04-14-2008, 10:10 PM
Gramatically anal-retentive people, we're calling you to our aid..!


I'm here!

Em dashes are—for the most part—interchangeable with a colon. They can also replace parentheses or two commas used for apposition.

The only incorrect sentence of yours is the one including the comma. DO NOT JOIN TWO INDEPENDENT CLAUSES WITH A COMMA!

What's an independent clause? Well, "You should read this," and, "It's my favorite book," are both independent clauses because when seperated, they are still sentences.

Also, with your question on capitalization after colons, the American standard is to capitalize. The British standard is not to capitalize; I believe.

rubah
04-14-2008, 10:11 PM
it's not like it really matters

Ouch!
04-14-2008, 10:16 PM
it's not like it really matters
Blasphemy.

rubah
04-14-2008, 10:41 PM
Hey, you clearly understood my meaning despite me not capitalizing my sentence 8) That says a lot!

Ouch!
04-14-2008, 11:26 PM
It says I've conditioned myself not to complain about grammar on the internet because it annoys people and gains me nothing but obnoxious nicknames such as Grammar Nazi.

Heath
04-14-2008, 11:44 PM
Provided it's understandable and conducted in a reasonable manner, I'm not too fussy about grammar. I'd use a semi colon in that case because everyone loves (or should love) semi-colons. But then again, I use brackets like there's no tomorrow, so perhaps it's a bit hypocritical for me to make judgements on the grammar of others.

LunarWeaver
04-14-2008, 11:52 PM
Alrighty, I made lots of revisions. Makes me happy, because she can be a Nazi. Not horrible, but sometimes. Mostly I subtracted many colons in favor of more sensible things. And I love the semi-colon, hoorah!

The definitions here were much more helpful than anything on Wiki. I might have to pick this book if I'm gonna be doing this a lot. Thanks a lot for the help on my question, fellas.

Ouch!
04-20-2008, 01:37 AM
Well, since that particular problem is resolved, and since this was created as a general grammar trouble thread, I thought I'd bring up another problem. Granted, I do not make this mistake, but it seems everyone else does.

An ellipsis has three stops--not two, three! That is all.

Yar
04-20-2008, 05:28 AM
Well, since that particular problem is resolved, and since this was created as a general grammar trouble thread, I thought I'd bring up another problem. Granted, I do not make this mistake, but it seems everyone else does.

An ellipsis has three stops--not two, three! That is all.

Unless it terminates a sentence, and there are no sentences following! In which case, it is four....

Ouch!
04-20-2008, 07:14 AM
Not necessarily. You could end that with a question mark or an exclamation point. You might even use an interrobang. An ellipsis is insufficient for ending a sentence, and therefore punctuation is necessary to do so.

However, this does not mean that two stops is sufficient!

Yar
04-21-2008, 02:41 AM
Touché. ;P

One of my peeves is "Me and John are going to do it." Not only because "me" is an object pronoun, but also because "me/I" should be the final pronoun mentioned in the group.

Kes
04-21-2008, 07:28 PM
Scarmiglione, I agree that "me" is wrong there, but me/I doesn't <i>have</i> to be the last in the list (from what I understand); it's just polite. Sometimes I do it intentionally to slight people, even if I'm the only one who is going to understand it. I'm strange/petty like that.

Secondly, I almost hate it more when people say, "She wanted to give it to him and I." I understand that whoever said it was trying, but "I" is not the all purpose answer to "person and self" situations.

And since I currently don't have <i>The Elements of Style</i> with me, I figure I may as well ask a question of my own: am I using quotation marks correctly in the above paragraphs?

I'm thinking that I might need to use single ones or none at all.

Raistlin
04-22-2008, 03:00 AM
I don't see anything wrong with the way you used quotation marks. I prefer them over the use of single-quotes (or whatever they're called when you're not using them as an apostrophe); I only use those if I'm using a quote-within-a-quote (i.e., "She said 'let's go!'").

I don't think it's a grammatically correct option not to use quotation marks at all where you used them.

Ouch!
04-22-2008, 04:03 AM
Single quotations is more of a British thing, if I remember properly. I don't see anything wrong with your use of quotations either.

Kes
04-22-2008, 04:55 AM
Skimming the internets had suggested the single quote to me (it is primarily un-American), but I don't trust interwebs on grammar issues for obvious reasons.

Now that I've been reunited with my grammar books, <i>The Elements of Style</i> said nothing about it. However, <i>Writing: Grammar, Usage, and Style</i> (Cliffsnotes answer to a grammar book) and <i>Writers Inc</i> both support my quotes because it distinguishes a word being discussed.

So yeah, ends up Ouch! and Raistlin were right. Yay!

Krelian
04-22-2008, 09:54 PM
The right thread for me. I always have some grammar questions :D
And here's the first one:
I've been wondering about some contractions. The book I'm using to look up things I'm uncertain about is called Practical English Usage and there's a list of contractions inside. I'm wondering about the contraction could've and should've which can't be found in the list. I'm pretty sure the latter isn't a commonly accepted contraction. Actually even my Firefox spell checker marks it as wrong. What about the former though? Is it not so common in British English, is it not common at all (though I'm sure I've heard it more than once) or is it simply missing?

Btw, my book suggests single quotation marks for words we want to give special meanings to. The author is British though :p

Raistlin
04-23-2008, 02:24 AM
If you're ever writing something where grammar is an issue, you shouldn't be using contractions in the first place. :p

That said, grammatically, "could've" and "should've" are fine as far as I know. MSWord does not consider them a misspelling.

Krelian
04-23-2008, 10:58 PM
Thanks for clarifying that. And of course you're right, if grammar is of importance I wouldn't use contractions :P

Yar
04-26-2008, 06:48 PM
If you're ever writing something where grammar is an issue, you shouldn't be using contractions in the first place. :p

That said, grammatically, "could've" and "should've" are fine as far as I know. MSWord does not consider them a misspelling.

Yes they are correct. Contractions of "could/should have." The error would be saying "could/should of" or "coulda/shoulda."

The Unknown Guru
04-26-2008, 09:53 PM
If you're ever writing something where grammar is an issue, you shouldn't be using contractions in the first place. :p

That said, grammatically, "could've" and "should've" are fine as far as I know. MSWord does not consider them a misspelling.

Yes they are correct. Contractions of "could/should have." The error would be saying "could/should of" or "coulda/shoulda."

Ugh, I absolutely hate "should/could of". :barf: Just because that's what it sounds like when you say it fast doesn't mean it's right.

Krelian
04-26-2008, 10:22 PM
"Should/could of" could never happen to me. That doesn't make any grammatical sense whatsoever, even if it does sound like the spoken versions O_o

LunarWeaver
11-17-2008, 10:04 PM
Sometimes I see peeps put a comma before certain final words and sometimes not. Like with the word too. "I like it, too" or stuff like that. I see it with though a lot as well. How do you know when to comma it and when you don't. Unless you always do when it lands at the end and I'm just confused.

Also, when do you use actual numbers and when do you spell the number out.

I was too cheap to buy any books after all.

Krelian
11-18-2008, 07:55 PM
I can only speak for myself, but I'm pretty sure that I was taught to put a comma before "too" and "though". Actually, I'm not so sure about "though", but I'm almost certain about "too". I've been using it less regularly, because I noticed many people didn't do it, but I still didn't know a rule. Today I looked it up in "Practical English Usage" and while it doesn't specifically say whether a comma does or doesn't belong there, all of the examples with "too" do not have a comma before it.

She not only sings; she plays the piano too.

With "though" it's different. The examples always have a comma.

Nice day. ~ Yes. Bit cold, though.

In medial positions "though" acts as a conjunction and has to be preceded by a comma.

I'd like to go out, though it is a bit late.

I can't find anything regarding "too" in medial positions, but I think it must be surrounded by commas if put there.

I, too, would like to go out.

So much for British English examples from a non-native speaker. I hope we can count on others to enlighten us more detailed :D

Generally speaking, I'm often unsure when to put a comma and when I shouldn't put one. German rules often differ from English rules and I never really learned English punctuation rules :(

scrumpleberry
11-18-2008, 09:08 PM
Man I had a grammar problem the other day but now I've forgotten it. I'll get back to you. It was like 2 parts of the same verb which I considered interchangeable or something x(


EDIT: I HAVE IT SWAM/SWUM WHAT IS DIFFERENCE D:

Imperfectionist
11-19-2008, 06:58 PM
I HAVE IT SWAM/SWUM WHAT IS DIFFERENCE D:

Swam is the past tense of the verb 'swim', swum is the past participle of the verb 'swim'.

So you would say "I swam there." or "I have swum there."

I think that's what it is anyway.

I'd like to add that et cetera is abbreviated to etc.

NOT ECT.

Grr...

Jessweeee♪
11-21-2008, 06:04 PM
ring rang rung,
swim swam sum ♪