First Class SOLDIER vs. SeeD

[blackmage_nuke]

Debate

[Relapse]

soldier, i guess. they're more focused on fighting, i think. from the little time i played ffviii, i find seed rather weak compared to soldier. its all opinion though, all opinion.

[Gilthanes]

SeeD are just military academy fighters

Soldiers are genetically modified super humans


Is it really a debate.. ?

[blackmage_nuke]

Well all the First Class Soldiers you meet do end up dying in the end so yes it is abit of a debate.

Well Zack and Sephiroth are the only SOLDIERS i can actually think of though.

[Gilthanes]

You fight generic First, Second, and Third class SOLDIERS all throughout the game, starting in midgar, contuining at Junon, and then finally you encounter first class soldiers in the raid on Midgar.

Fact of the matter is, SeeDs were weak unless equipped with GFs, in which case you could consider them to be super humans. However, unequip the GFs, they are still SeeDs, just very weak ones who wouldnt be able to do much.

Soldiers, by definition, are modified. You can't "unmodify" them, because that would mean they arent soldiers anymore, just normal people. Soldiers without that modification arent SOLDIER at all.

Thus, if you ARE a SOLDIER, you are automatically genetically enhanced- SeeD is not necessarily so, remove the GF and they are nothing.

[blackmage_nuke]

They still have thier limit breaks

[Gilthanes]

Which are also considerably weaker without their GFs modifying their strength and magic ability

[Bahamut2000X]

Group of genetically modified and mako infused super humans trained in the art of death vs a bunch of emo wrist cutting teenagers. The answer is obvious here.

[blackmage_nuke]

a bunch of emo wrist cutting teenagers.
The irony that Selphie is a SeeD

[Bahamut2000X]

No one's THAT happy. Really Selphie is just covering her angst and depression in a cloud of caffeine and sugar rushes with a fake hyperactive personality. Deep down she really cuts too.

[blackmage_nuke]

Well atleast she's not dead, like most SOLDIERS

[Goldenboko]

When it comes down to it, the Knights of Pluto would crush both 8]

[ReloadPsi]

When it comes down to it, the Knights of Pluto would crush both 8]

Oh please, two FF1 Fighters with two FF1 Red Mages backing them would lay an obscene smackdown on them all, fry their eyes over easy and feed them to Headmaster Cid.

But hey, if you're like me and somehow feel constantly compelled to consider battle mechanics then SOLDIER, simply because those guys get Final Attack-Revive what with their extreme proficiency with Materia, causing them to be virtually undefeatable anyway.

[Creeping Shadow]

When it comes down to it, the Knights of Pluto would crush both 8]

Truth.

[Big D]

SOLDIER members have to be mentally strong before they can even get accepted into the force, and once they've made it, their minds and bodies get strengthened to truly superhuman levels with spirit energy and Jenova cells. This makes them impervious to damage that'd easily kill any regular person, and in the case of the elite First Class SOLDIERs, gives them strength, agility and reflexes that are basically unrivaled.

SeeD are teenagers who're taught that you should kill whoever you're told to, so that your boss gets some money from the client.


*votes SOLDIER*

Sure, there are some gifted fighters in SeeD, especially those who find an actual, moral cause to fight for. And in SOLDIER, there are plenty of warriors who lose to a ragtag assortment of fighters who're utterly dedicated to their journey to save the world. But overall, SOLDIER's easily a stronger, more disciplined and militarily superior force than SeeD.

[Suvious]

Sephiroth vs Seifer - Ex-Soldier bad guy vs Ex-Seed bad guy = Soldier wins!

[Rantz]

I'm voting SeeD just to be a rebel. :cool:

[Bahamut2000X]

I'm voting SeeD just to be a rebel. :cool:

Gasp! And you call yourself my Siamese twin!

[Vivisteiner]

When it comes down to it, the Knights of Pluto would crush both 8]

Truth.
Yeah, but thats unfair. The Knights of Pluto are the physical elite, championed by God. SeeD and SOLDIER dont stand a chance.

[ljkkjlcm9]

The Returners ftw....

I actually prefer SeeD because they seem more real to me. I don't care what anyone says about FFVIII, the characters actually seemed like real people, even if they were real people you would hate... but almost everyone goes through a Squall phase, and that's why people hate him so much. FFVII characters all seemed way too fake to me.

THE JACKEL

[Bahamut2000X]

Yeah but since when have we cared about realism in a video game? I mean we're talking about games here with monsters the size of sky scrapers and a time paradox that makes about as much sense as a wedge of cheese. Realism doesn't really go hand in hand with impossibilities.

[Ouch!]

There really is no debate here, as detailed by multiple posts above.

[blackmage_nuke]

Sephiroth vs Seifer - Ex-Soldier bad guy vs Ex-Seed bad guy = Soldier wins!

Seifer failed the SeeD test, he never became a SeeD

[Forsaken Lover]

Seifer who isn't an SeeD is the only real threat to the SOLDIERs.
Zack fought summons and of course Seph owned Ifrit.
We know Seifer can own Odin in one shot.
So he's really the only one comparable to that level of power.

[The Crystal]

SOLDIER wins. They have an entire Compilation to show how badass they are. SeeD doesn't.


Sephiroth vs Seifer - Ex-Soldier bad guy vs Ex-Seed bad guy = Soldier wins!

I don't know... Seifer don't have many feats story-wise, but if we only compare what each one of them did to a Summon, then we can say that Seifer is a little stronger than Seph.
Sephiroth killed Ifrit in two strikes(the first strike was the one that stoped Ifrit from attacking Zack again, and the second strike was the one that killed Ifrit), but Seifer killed Odin in one strike.

If we assume that FFVIII Odin and FFVII Ifrit are on the same level, and if we only judge Seifer and Sephiroth's powers from what they did against these two Summons, then Seifer is stronger than SOLDIER Sephiroth.

[Roogle]

This is an interesting thread. I think that the members of SOLDIER were stronger than the members of SeeD.

[Rantz]

Just so you guys know, I'm gathering a rebellion against you SOLDIER guys. One day, we will rise up and run a surprise attack on you!

[Bahamut2000X]

SeeD train to kill Sorceresses.

Soldier trains to kill everything.

Soldier > SeeD

[Suvious]

You guys are thinking of when Sephiroth was a goody! I strongly remember Sephiroth hitting all my characters for 9998 damadge. Sephiroth = pwns Seifer. Remember when Sephiroth went mental, he became like the devil himself.

[Rantz]

And was killed. :rolleyes2

You all are forgetting how Squall, Quistis, Zell, Selphie and Irvine are also SeeDs. Squall's limit break Lionheart is about as strong as Cloud's Omnislash, which sent the prime example of a first class SOLDIER into oblivion. Zell's Armageddon Fist is even stronger and Selphie's The End would take him out in a matter of seconds.

[The Crystal]

You guys are thinking of when Sephiroth was a goody!

We are thinking when Sephiroth was a First Class SOLDIER. Look at the title of this thread.

[ljkkjlcm9]

Let's put this in perspective. The characters all of you are referencing from FFVII, were not your typical soldier people. In fact, when you have control of them, not a single one is part of Soldier (except in Crisis Core). Trying to say, "Oh Sephiroth was Soldier so clearly Soldier." Even when he was a member, he far outclassed any other member. That's not a good standard.

In FFVIII, you also have the top of the line of SeeD. But guess what, they all stayed in SeeD while the people you're all talking about left Soldier. And Seifer was never a member of SeeD, just like Cloud was never actually Soldier

THE JACKEL

[cloud21zidane16]

Soldier wins:up:

[blackmage_nuke]

SOLDIER wins. They have an entire Compilation to show how badass they are. SeeD doesn't.
What are you talking about? The entire FFVIII GAME is about SeeDs!

[The Crystal]

What are you talking about? The entire FFVIII GAME is about SeeDs!

1) A Compilation of games > one single game.

2) FFVIII game is about the main party. Yes they are SeeDs, but they aren't normal ones. We shouldn't believe that all SeeDs are like them.

[Raebus]

SeeD win.

[Wolf Kanno]

Honestly, I don't think we ever see enough of either force to make a fair judgment.

The SOLDIERS you meet in game are tough but are still beatable by normal human standards. I mean even badass, "in a smurfing league of his own" Sephiroth was beaten by Cloud who is anything but a proper SOLDIER. So I don't believe SOLDIER is nearly as good as VII fans would lead you to believe. Hell, the Turks can hold their own against 1st class SOLDIER types (Cloud, Kadaj, and Zack) and they have no serious modifications whatsoever.

SeeD soldiers have more training and many are child soldiers (meaning their lives revolve around being soldiers rather than civilians with military training). Their services are sent in to deal with losing battles so they have a better reputation than SOLDIER. We never get an in-game assessment of what the GF's do for them so you can't honestly debate how powerful they are unless you use in-game mechanics at which point SeeD is obviously stronger. Even then, its still debatable...

Overall, we don't have enough info to pick a clear winner so it comes down to personal taste at which point I am voting for Magitech Soldiers would kick both their sorry asses! :p

[The Last Oath]

To be 1st Class SOLDIER is to have the skill of zack, sephi and genesis who were all killed, remembering zack was killed by gunfire..

SeeD are generally weaker but they're ARE uber powerful SeeD such as Squall. Even the other SeeD were losing to the galbadian military during the garden wars.

SeeD = Small but super special forces team

SOLDIER = Super strong fighting individuals

[Goldenboko]

What are you talking about? The entire FFVIII GAME is about SeeDs!

1) A Compilation of games > one single game.

That doesn't prove anything about actual characters. Mario has the most extensive library of games ever, so does that mean he's more powerful then all of the SeeD, SOLDIER, etc?

[ljkkjlcm9]

To be 1st Class SOLDIER is to have the skill of zack, sephi and genesis who were all killed, remembering zack was killed by gunfire..

SeeD are generally weaker but they're ARE uber powerful SeeD such as Squall. Even the other SeeD were losing to the galbadian military during the garden wars.

SeeD = Small but super special forces team

SOLDIER = Super strong fighting individuals
The "galbadian military" was of Galbadia garden... aka Galbadia's SeeD

As I stated earlier. No one you actually control is a SOLDIER in FFVII (except the one flash back). Everyone you control is SeeD (except before they passed their qualifiers and Rinoa but she's a sorceress).

THE JACKEL

[The Crystal]

That doesn't prove anything about actual characters. Mario has the most extensive library of games ever, so does that mean he's more powerful then all of the SeeD, SOLDIER, etc?

During most of FFVIII and FFVII's games, we only have gameplay to go for. We know that the characters can use powerful magic, but that's it.
Now, with the Compilation, we know how the characters actually fight. We have new FMVs, cutscenes, and an entire CGI movie to go for.

The Compilation made the characters of FFVII look more impressive than before, and in my opinion, it made them look stronger than FFVIII characters.


And I already heard many people say that Mario is one of the strongest characters in video game's history.

[Big D]

The "galbadian military" was of Galbadia garden... aka Galbadia's SeeDNot exactly... when the Sorceress took over Galbadia Garden, the students were all sent packing. Garden was always a separate institution from anyone's government.

[ljkkjlcm9]

That doesn't prove anything about actual characters. Mario has the most extensive library of games ever, so does that mean he's more powerful then all of the SeeD, SOLDIER, etc?

During most of FFVIII and FFVII's games, we only have gameplay to go for. We know that the characters can use powerful magic, but that's it.
Now, with the Compilation, we know how the characters actually fight. We have new FMVs, cutscenes, and an entire CGI movie to go for.

The Compilation made the characters of FFVII look more impressive than before, and in my opinion, it made them look stronger than FFVIII characters.


And I already heard many people say that Mario is one of the strongest characters in video game's history.

clearly they wanted to make the characters look more awesome to appease the rabid fanboys. Just look at Advent Children.

THE JACKEL

[The Crystal]

clearly they wanted to make the characters look more awesome to appease the rabid fanboys. Just look at Advent Children.

It's not only about AC, it's about the entire Compilation. Just look at CC and DoC.

[Roogle]

The "galbadian military" was of Galbadia garden... aka Galbadia's SeeDNot exactly... when the Sorceress took over Galbadia Garden, the students were all sent packing. Garden was always a separate institution from anyone's government.

I think that the Galbadian forces were comprised of Galbadian SeeD and the Galbadian military forces from cities like Deling City, Timber, and any other cities in that region. The students may have been sent packing, but the game shows us that there are students and then there are SeeDs.

[Rocket Edge]

SeeD are just military academy fighters

Soldiers are genetically modified super humans


Is it really a debate.. ?
Exactly.

[Rantz]

That doesn't prove anything about actual characters. Mario has the most extensive library of games ever, so does that mean he's more powerful then all of the SeeD, SOLDIER, etc?

Mario would just go Yo! Ho! Yippie-ka! on their asses and box them to kingdom come. Then when they were all dead he would throw fireballs on them.

[Marky Tee]

hehe i was actualy thinking about this this morning so read up on both groups on the final fantasy wiki

even though i like FF8 (marginaly) better than 7 and therfore SeeD(or at least the idea of SeeD) i still voted for SOLDIER as most of the membersof SOLDIER you ever come across would beat up the SeeDs

sure squall and co. are all tough as nails but the rest of them seem to get an asskickin pretty easy as seen during the garden master faction crisis and the battle between the 2 gardens where some seed get killed or KO'd by crappy Galbadian soldiers

one other thing though the theory behind SeeD would suggest they are individualy superior but there are proabably ten times more SOLDIERS are we taking that into account?

[Takero]

You are saying first class soldier vs. all the SeeD , and is wrong because we know not all the SeeDs can considered like first class , so we can say first class soldier vs. first class Seed or soldiers vs. SeeD .

I myself go for the SeeD Because I think they are stronger than normal soldiers .

[Marky Tee]

are we comparing the entire forces here or if a member of each force fought each other?

[champagne supernova]

I don't think this is a fair debate, because First Class SOLDIER are the top members of the entire SOLDIER group. Whereas SeeD is the entire force. I think that one should compare First Class SOLDIER with the top SeeDs to actually make a comparison.

Anyway, I remember facing First Class SOLDIERs in Junon and they were fairly average. You don't face a normal SeeD in VIII (because Seifer failed, and anyway wouldn't be normal). I don't think Galbadia Garden retains SeeDs. They train their students, who afterwards go into the Galbadia army, or transfer to Balamb. I think at least. So I don't know how to compare the two.

[NeoTifa]

why isnt turk an option? id vote turk :p i<3 reno!!!


and dont be dissin my sephi!!! *evil glare*

[Hyperion4444]

This Debate has been going on forever, ever since the first Cloud vs Squall debate.

If they aren't First-Class SOLDIER (or Cloud) then SeeDs win.

SOLDIERs are trained army soldiers
SeeDs are trained Elite Special Force

it's like saying who's better, Army or Navy Seals?
SOLDIER has many class so it's hard to say if they stand a chance against an Elite SeeD. (Elite is usually the top you can go)

Ok, let's look at the abilities.
SOLDIERs (Ex-SOLDIER) uses powerful Materia for skills, ability, magic and enhancements. Limited by the weapon.
SeeD uses powerful Guardian Force for skills, abilities, magic and can also junction magic for enhancements.

Who of the two is easyer to max out?
Simple right. next.


Who Has the best Limit Breaks?
Cloud : Ommislash 15hit M
Squall : Renzokuken + Lion Hearth 21-26hit S

Tifa : Final Heaven
Rinoa : Invincible Moon, Wishing Star, Meteor/Angel Wing + Meltdown

Zell: Final Heaven
Cid: Highwind

Irvine: Max Fast shot (and turbo controller supply)
Vincent: Chaos

[Magixion]

Ok, well the title says First Class SOLDIER vs. SeeD. If I remember correctly, in Crisis Core they explicitly say that the only first classes are Sephiroth, Angeal, Genesis, and eventually Zack. So, we have 4 elite SOLDIERs there who are infused with mako and have materia, while in FFVIII you have the top of the SeeDs which are basically all the main party (Squall, Zell, Selphie, Irvine, Quistis, etc.) who have the power of the GFs who make them immensely stronger. I believe the SeeD have it. I believe that it would be a great fight, but regardless of how you match them up, I think the SeeD would come out on top.

Also, I am not sure if this was meant to be just a one on one battle or all of the forces combined, but either way I say the SeeD will be victorious.

[Hyperion4444]

SeeDs won against the G-Army's Assault.
Remember?


During the two Garden Fighting, G-Garden continuously attacked B-Garden with their Elite Force when most of B-Garden's Forces were just students, they took a beating at first but Squall Encouraged his troops' moral, fought and repelled the entire Galbadian Army despite them having more experienced troops.

Most SeeDs are sent accross the world and aren't always present in the Garden. Balamb Garden was ambushed and there no way of re-calling troops so fast. You can tell by their uniforms that they were not SeeDs.


SOLDIER have many classes, up until First Class, they're all normal humans. And if Balamb Garden students were able to repel the G-Army, imagine when they're SeeDs.
As for SOLDIERs, Cloud can take them out even if he's a Ex-SOLDIER.

SeeDs defeated Sorceresses with far greater than there own powers.

[Big D]

Cloud was never actually in SOLDIER, he just got the same empowering treatment as a First Class.

Sure, SeeD are trained to defeat Sorceresses - but a former SOLDIER actually became a God, almost, and caused damage that scarred the entire world.

[Hyperion4444]

You mean Sephiroth?

Sephiroth has one wing, and Rinoa has two.
Technically, only Rinoa could fly. (But, you know how the FFVII universe is, still, in that world, two wings should still fly better)

As for Gods go, well, in the FFVIII, the Sorceress have inherited the power of their own God, Hyne, before he got destroyed.
Sorceress Ultimecia is the decendant of thoses Sorceresses combined.

Squall defeated the power of the God.
Squall > God :cool:

As for Sephiroth, the real Sephiroth, he died by the Hands of Cloud.
The other Sephiroth was just boosted by Hojo who was manipulating Sephiroth (To implement his consience, because Jenova cells were unfit for him, when he died again, he went to Weiss......)

So there's really nothing to it.
Quistis can learn Shockwave Pulsar (The Greatest GF ability after Eternal Breath)
Even Ruby/Emerald Weapon seems pretty easy to beat if you use the FFVIII cast with their abilites.

[Saber]

Well Siefer did become pretty strong but sephiroth made it all the way to the final battle area. which seifer did not and squalls whole world was destroyed. Squall then ran away and changed his name to leon. Plus everyones bringing out the armys of seed. Shall we bring out all of shinra's forces since that what SoLDIER is part of? If so Seed wouldn't stand a chance.

EDIT : so far its 31 people for SOLDIER and 10 for seed. thats three times more votes.

tuesday august 12th 2008 12:30am eastern USA

[Magixion]

Well Siefer did become pretty strong but sephiroth made it all the way to the final battle area. which seifer did not and squalls whole world was destroyed. Squall then ran away and changed his name to leon. Plus everyones bringing out the armys of seed. Shall we bring out all of shinra's forces since that what SoLDIER is part of? If so Seed wouldn't stand a chance.

EDIT : so far its 31 people for SOLDIER and 10 for seed. thats three times more votes.

tuesday august 12th 2008 12:30am eastern USA

You forget the topic is about First Class SOLDIERs and SeeD. So It would be all the SeeD vs First Class SOLDIERs.

[Hyperion4444]

As thoses so called First-Class SOLDIERs, Sephiroth died by the hand of Cloud when Cloud was still weak and only a low-level infantry guard.
So, like, just about any warrior could beat them.

B-Garden Students repeled the G-Army's Elite even when the G-Army were 5to1 (Imagine when they're SeeDs).

SeeDs would win (Unless you're counting the pacific white SeeDs).
If you count Irvine and Rinoa as SeeDs, there's not doupt SeeDs win.

By the way, Sephiroth in the end has been boosted enormously by hojo far beyong the usual First-Class SOLDIERs
Sephiroth only has 82500hp, so that's just 1-2 Renzokuken.
B, one hit
C, Renzokuken/two hits
D, one hit
E, one hit
Safer, 2 Lion Hearts
So easy to beat them, Squall beats him alone
Could Can use Defend to avoid any nasty one hit death or powerful multiple attacks or use a GF for thoses 9999 always hit.

Finish with Lion Heart for style.

[Goldenboko]

As thoses so called First-Class SOLDIERs, Sephiroth died by the hand of Cloud when Cloud was still weak and only a low-level infantry guard.
So, like, just about any warrior could beat them.

B-Garden Students repeled the G-Army's Elite even when the G-Army were 5to1 (Imagine when they're SeeDs).

SeeDs would win (Unless you're counting the pacific white SeeDs).
If you count Irvine and Rinoa as SeeDs, there's not doupt SeeDs win.

By the way, Sephiroth in the end has been boosted enormously by hojo far beyong the usual First-Class SOLDIERs
Sephiroth only has 82500hp, so that's just 1-2 Renzokuken.
B, one hit
C, Renzokuken/two hits
D, one hit
E, one hit
Safer, 2 Lion Hearts
So easy to beat them, Squall beats him alone
Could Can use Defend to avoid any nasty one hit death or powerful multiple attacks or use a GF for thoses 9999 always hit.

Finish with Lion Heart for style.

You can't use game mechanics. Using game mechanics you could argue that Yu Yevon is more powerful then any of these characters.

[ljkkjlcm9]

Ok, well the title says First Class SOLDIER vs. SeeD. If I remember correctly, in Crisis Core they explicitly say that the only first classes are Sephiroth, Angeal, Genesis, and eventually Zack.

If this is true, I think it's pretty obvious who would be victorious...
All those First Class SOLDIER... are dead...
All the top class SeeD, are alive still... so yeah

THE JACKEL

[jammi567]

If i remember correctly from the game, SeeD's have to train for years and years before they can take the SeeD exam. Even then, they might not make it.

On the other hand, SOLDIER candidates have to be mentally strong (if not physically so) in the first place to even be accepted as 3rd Class. Afterwards, they get injected with JENOVA cells and mako, which makes them even stronger then they would be normally.

This gives them an unfair advantage against the SeeD's, because the strength that they display is not natually their own.

So i would have to say in a fair fight that SeeD would win.

[champagne supernova]

I don't think you can answer this based on reason, because Sephiroth is not a normal SOLDIER, just as Squall & Co. can't be considered average SeeDs.

However, Cloud/Zack in the Nibelheim flashback scene at Kalm would be considered a normal SOLDIER, as would the First Class SOLDIERs you fight in the game. However, one does not fight any SeeDs in VIII at all (Seifer never qualified, not that he would be considered a normal SeeD anyway). So there is no basis of comparison.

SOLDIERs have Jenova cells implanted in them, making them stronger. But SeeD can use para-magic, and junction magic to up their stats. So, I think, that basically makes them roughly the same.

We also never see SOLDIER in action in the game. So, although Balamb Garden defeats the Galbadia army at the battle of the Gardens, there is nothing to compare it too (and I don't think that it was quite 5-1 against in terms of numbers), and so can't be used here either.

The one thing that SeeD does have over SOLDIER is that their troops are trained from a younger age, entering Garden in their early teens. They also are a mercenary force, and as such are constantly being used, whereas SOLDIER does not seem to have been used extensively as a military force since the War.

So, I think that SOLDIER & SeeD are very similar in terms of individual ability, but at the time of the games, SeeD would be sharper, and because they are trained from a younger age, be more equipped for battle.

Anyway, its quite hard to rationally say which one is better than the other, as some peeps are trying to do.

[Hyperion4444]

Ok, well the title says First Class SOLDIER vs. SeeD. If I remember correctly, in Crisis Core they explicitly say that the only first classes are Sephiroth, Angeal, Genesis, and eventually Zack.

If this is true, I think it's pretty obvious who would be victorious...
All those First Class SOLDIER... are dead...
All the top class SeeD, are still alive... so yeah

THE JACKAL

Yeah, that'd be winning by default.


I could argue about in-game battle mechanics, but let's not.


About FFX
Can you imagine if all SeeDs were able to break damage limit? (Quistis can)
Let's see, maximum 99999 of 21-26xhits = total victory of SeeDs

btw: Odin beats everything except Seifer.
SeeDs can be invinsible in a number of ways (Item or Rinoa's help)





Are you including Rinoa and Irvine as SeeDs?

If so, they add weight to the overall balance.

Squall & Quistis are really useful in terms of limit breaks abilities.
Selphie has The End.
Zell's Meteor Strike 1/4HP.

[jammi567]

Ok, well the title says First Class SOLDIER vs. SeeD. If I remember correctly, in Crisis Core they explicitly say that the only first classes are Sephiroth, Angeal, Genesis, and eventually Zack.

If this is true, I think it's pretty obvious who would be victorious...
All those First Class SOLDIER... are dead...
All the top class SeeD, are still alive... so yeah

THE JACKAL

Are you including Rinoa and Irvine as SeeDs?

If so, they add weight to the overall balance.

Squall & Quistis are really useful in terms of limit breaks abilities.
Selphie has The End.
Zell's Meteor Strike 1/4HP.
I would certainly include Irvine, because i thought that he was trained as a SeeD as well, just that Galbadia Garden didn't use GF's for whatever reason. I mean, he's certainly got the relevent skills and strength.

[Shadowdeathrose]

Which are also considerably weaker without their GFs modifying their strength and magic ability


Theres a flaw in what you say, One being is if you work hard enough in FFVIII you can reach the 255 strength + speed + VIT etc... by refining items and finding certain items. to refine. therefor. the GFs were not needed.

[jammi567]

Which are also considerably weaker without their GFs modifying their strength and magic ability


Theres a flaw in what you say, One being is if you work hard enough in FFVIII you can reach the 255 strength + speed + VIT etc... by refining items and finding certain items. to refine. therefor. the GFs were not needed.
There's also a flaw n your argument - you can do the same thing in VII to reach max strength, vitality etc.

[Shadowdeathrose]

I didn't argue against VII mate

[Hyperion4444]

Including Irvine is great, his Armor Piercing bullets takes out all his enemies.
Selphie's The Ends beats anything in any game, no matter what.


How/Where do you find Bonus Up in FFVII (I would like to know, really, I'd max them)

Don't forget FFVII has the Lucky 7 boost (Level 77 and 7777HP)
But they aren't SOLDIERs. One is a Turks, but no SOLDIERs.

You Think a Turk is Stronger than a First-Class SOLDIER?
I had a hard time with them in Midgar near end of disc 2.
How high level is a Turk?

[jammi567]

How/Where do you find Bonus Up in FFVII (I would like to know, really, I'd max them)
You can morph certain enemies

[Rantz]

I love how this discussion is all heated up and serious like it was of any actual importance. :bigsmile:

[Shadowdeathrose]

Ok, well the title says First Class SOLDIER vs. SeeD. If I remember correctly, in Crisis Core they explicitly say that the only first classes are Sephiroth, Angeal, Genesis, and eventually Zack.

If this is true, I think it's pretty obvious who would be victorious...
All those First Class SOLDIER... are dead...
All the top class SeeD, are alive still... so yeah

THE JACKAL

Genesis is back at the end of dirge of cerberus...... so we have 1 first class soldier

[Hyperion4444]

How/Where do you find Bonus Up in FFVII (I would like to know, really, I'd max them)
You can morph certain enemies

You lost me on that one...

Is it one of thoses enemies abilities?


If Genesis still lives, then it's Him VS 1000s of SeeDs, including Squall, Quistis...
He could be as strong as can be, but I seriously doupt he stand a chance.
Squall has one of the best limit breaks ever.
Quistis has the most powerful GF ability.
and if that's not enought, Selphie can cast The End... or maybe even Rapture, it'd be the first time Genesis would have two wings. (just joking ;))

[jammi567]

How/Where do you find Bonus Up in FFVII (I would like to know, really, I'd max them)
You can morph certain enemies

You lost me on that one...

Is it one of thoses enemies abilities?
No Just use the Morth materia.

[Hyperion4444]

Thanks, I'll remember that.

[Saber]

How/Where do you find Bonus Up in FFVII (I would like to know, really, I'd max them)
You can morph certain enemies

You lost me on that one...

Is it one of thoses enemies abilities?
No Just use the Morth materia.

Every enemy in the sunken gelnika can be morphed into a source. Don't forget the little room where you fought the turks cause the enemies there turn into luck and speed sources.

[Hyperion4444]

Thanks Alot!

[Project G]

SOLDIER hands down! You've seen Zack, Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal and the Tsviets (Ok so they're not really SOLDIER, but Deepground is a form of SOLDIER right?) in battle!

Do you really think that the likes of Squall and Irvine would really be able to fight them?

[Markus. D]

Quistis would solo 'em all :D

[champagne supernova]

Quistis > SOLDIER.

Besides, you're making up for something when you have to spell your whole name in capitals.

[jammi567]

SOLDIER hands down! You've seen Zack, Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal and the Tsviets (Ok so they're not really SOLDIER, but Deepground is a form of SOLDIER right?) in battle!

But you'll notice that every single one of them (with the exception of Genesis) died in some shape or form.

[Project G]

SOLDIER hands down! You've seen Zack, Sephiroth, Genesis, Angeal and the Tsviets (Ok so they're not really SOLDIER, but Deepground is a form of SOLDIER right?) in battle!

But you'll notice that every single one of them (with the exception of Genesis) died in some shape or form.

Technically this is true....

But with the secret ending of DoC, you see Genesis fly away with Weiss, giving the impression that he is still alive!

[Hyperion4444]

Wasn't Squall supposed to have died twice already and, just, didn't?
One at the end of disc one and another time in the end.

And he still lives!?
There must be something more to him or maybe it's all in his GF?

[Raebus]

The end of the first disc - I think he's just injured and didn't die.

Near the end - Not sure. It was always kind of wtf to me.

Oh and yeah, you aren't on my ignore list any more. =P

[Hyperion4444]

The end of the first disc - I think he's just injured and didn't die.

Near the end - Not sure. It was always kind of wtf to me.

Oh and yeah, you aren't on my ignore list any more. =P

really?
why?
I'm pretty stuborn at times.
(This tread is a good example! :))

[Raebus]

I forgot why I ignored you in the first place. xD

but yeah, If squall is still around then he didn't die. He must be tough or something.

[Hyperion4444]

I haven't seen any first-class SOLDIERs (nor Deepground SOLDIERs) face off against epic monsters like Ultimecia.

Weiss combine himself with Omega yet Vincent Valentine beats him and Squall beats a stronger version of Omega Weapon (Terra Break) in his game. You can even dual Omega with Squall (YouTube it). Omega also has Merdigo Flames, Ultimecia's strongest attack! (Maelstorm arguably)

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

I haven't seen any first-class SOLDIERs (nor Deepground SOLDIERs) face off against epic monsters like Ultimecia.

Play Crisis Core.

[Hyperion4444]

That would make Weiss, Genesis Brother?
It's odd we don't get to see Weiss elsewhere and Weiss' already dead?
Nero also called him brother... how many were of them in the family?

Haven't seen any spectacular (Monster Form) beasts in Crisis Core than your typical FFVII Bosses. Alot of Genesis Battles....
I'm talking about something far beyond human enhanced.
I'll admit, they seem tought, it's not quite what I'm looking for as example.



Zack eventually reach First-Class rigth? But he doesn't get boosted by Mako, right...?


Sorry, I got the game but not the PSP yet.
rumor of a PSP-3000

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Haven't seen any spectacular (Monster Form) beasts in Crisis Core than your typical FFVII Bosses. Alot of Genesis Battles....

Genesis becomes about as superhuman as Ultimecia by the end of the game. And Zack takes him out single-handedly.


I'm talking about something far beyond human enhanced.

Zack defeats Minerva, who is implied to be the goddess of the world of FFVII. He beats up a god. Is that epic enough for you?
Zack eventually reach First-Class rigth? But he doesn't get boosted by Mako, right...?

All SOLDIERs are infused with Mako and Jenova cells.

[Hyperion4444]

What's special about the 1 wing?
Is it just for First-Class SOLDIERs?
How do they get it?

I could also tell you about Ultimecia's actual Powers, but another day.
Squall can defeat Ultimecia by his own if you choose to do so.
Except Squall doesn't rely on mako at all and can un-junction his GFs while SOLDIERs are infused by (and stucked with) Mako.

[Goldenboko]

What's special about the 1 wing?
Is it just for First-Class SOLDIERs?
How do they get it?

I could also tell you about Ultimecia's actual Powers, but another day.
Squall can defeat Ultimecia by his own if you choose to do so.
Except Squall doesn't rely on mako at all and can un-junction his GFs while SOLDIERs are infused by (and stucked with) Mako.

Again, battle mechanics. In the game Squall defeats Ultimecia with the help of the rest. Whether or not you use them in the actual battle is completely irrelevant.

The main SeeD party lose the majority of their strength when unjunctioning. The rest of the SeeD are not like you, because they cannot junction with the same unrestricted freedom.

Presumably, the majority of 1st Class could end up becoming like Zack, seeing as they all receive Jenova, and Mako infusion.

Don't talk as if Mako infusion is a bad thing in terms of fighting capability. Its actually what gives the 1st class soldier the edge in this debate.

[Hyperion4444]

You can choose to defeat Greiver and Ultimecia with just Squall in a fairly easy battle btw.

Like you said, end up like Zack, dead.

All SeeDs Junction Guardian Forces, it has been said multiple times during the course of the game.

Even WITHOUT the GFs, SeeDs has some of the best limit breaks of ALL Final Fantasies.


If you only say First-Class SOLDIERs against SeeDs, well, it be the remaining First-Class SOLDIERs against a bunch of powerful SeeDs.

If you include all SOLDIERs, you might as well add Garden students, Irvine & Rinoa since Ultimecia considers them as SeeDs, Rinoa would make everyone Invinsible before bombarding them of Wishing Stars and Irvine would Blast the holy crap out of them with his shots. You would need to add Rinoa since she's an allies of SeeDs.

Rinoa did say (I want to be part of the group and fight along the side of everyone) before joining the ranks with the SeeD Students.

Also, what makes you think there isn't any other Powerfull SeeDs like Squall in the Academy?

[Goldenboko]

Why don't you understand? Battle Mechanics cannot be used to determine strengths. Using that logic, Tidus and the rest of the FFX crew, are the most powerful FF characters ever. In game story is what matters.

The story specifically designates Squall and co. as the lengendary SeeDs that will defeat Ultimecia. Ultimecia defeated all the SeeD other then you, therefore you are the most powerful SeeD there are. Game, set, match.

Zack has done more feats then Squall and he isn't even the most powerful of all Soldier (Sephiroth takes that cake).

Also, you do have to include dead Soldier. Considering a fight against Soldier without Sephiroth, Zack, etc. isn't fair, unless you minus out all the SeeD that die in the War between them (Galbadia V. Balamb).

[Hyperion4444]

I haven't said anything about Battle Mechanix, just the Limit Breaks.
If you based yourself on the battle Mechanix, FFVIII would own them all. Invinsibility, Odin, Degenerator, Lion Hearth.... the list goes on.


Squall's "Legendary SeeD" is because he defeated Edea in the history of the game. Was also the First SeeD to be appointed has the leader of SeeDs. Legendary SeeDs are All SeeDs, not just Squall and co since Edea/Ultimecia refers to Rinoa has a SeeD, and Rinoa did not received any Garden Training.

Even Cloud kills off Sephiroth while he was just a low class guard (Sephiroth died by the hands of Cloud b4 the Final Battle during the Attack of Nibelheim*, the other Sephiroth is controlled by Hojo, same goes for Weiss)

Haven't seen any Garden Student dead during the Garden Confrontations, did you?

SeeDs are dispatch troughout the world, there were none to very little who were dressed in SeeD uniform.
Besides Squall, Zell, Quistis, Selphie and Xu, there wasn't any other SeeD who battled hands on.

[Project G]

Thank you Hyperion! You have just proved that SeeDs suck!

Cloud (Back in the day when he was merely a ShinRa Army member! Not a 1st Class), manages to defeat Sephiroth (SOLDIER 1st Class Legend)

SeeDs suck because they require teamwork!


And the reason behind the lack of deaths in VIII was probably due to the controversial Child Soldiers issue that I picked up on while playing it

[Goldenboko]

I haven't said anything about Battle Mechanix, just the Limit Breaks.
If you based yourself on the battle Mechanix, FFVIII would own them all. Invinsibility, Odin, Degenerator, Lion Hearth.... the list goes on.

Yes you have. You've mentioned limits. You've mentioned "Squall could defeat Ulti on his own", which is ONLY possible through battle mechanics. If we wanted to use battle mechanics FFX would own everything, 99,999 HP plox? Does that matter? No, because battle mechanics don't matter.


Squall's "Legendary SeeD" is because he defeated Edea in the history of the game. Was also the First SeeD to be appointed has the leader of SeeDs. Legendary SeeDs are All SeeDs, not just Squall and co since Edea/Ultimecia refers to Rinoa has a SeeD, and Rinoa did not received any Garden Training.)

Squall never defeated Edea in the story. Legendary SeeD are not all SeeD. No one is super if everyone is after all. Squall and Co. are the legendary SeeD. It would be stupid to assume the rest are as strong. In fact it would go against the story itself. Ultimecia defeated all the SeeD of her time remember?


Even Cloud kills off Sephiroth while he was just a low class guard (Sephiroth died by the hands of Cloud b4 the Final Battle during the Attack of Nibelheim*, the other Sephiroth is controlled by Hojo, same goes for Weiss)

Last order changed that segment. Apparently Square Enix said, "Wait, that scene is cool and all but... Cloud shouldn't be able to do that." So, instead of Cloud defeating Sephiroth, the edited story is he jumped into the mako by his own accord.


Haven't seen any Garden Student dead during the Garden Confrontations, did you?.

SeeDs are dispatch troughout the world, there were none to very little who were dressed in SeeD uniform.
Besides Squall, Zell, Quistis, Selphie and Xu, there wasn't any other SeeD who battled hands on.

Did you watch that giant scene? They didn't confirm anyone in particular died, but thats because FFVIII was very linear in its focusing on Squall and Rinoa, then saying fuck you to the rest of the story.

Second, once again, did you watch that scene? Of course SeeD battle hands on, IT WAS DONE IN THAT SCENE >:0

[Hyperion4444]

Dude, Squall & Cloud defeats anything in Instant.

Cloud is forced into Teamwork when trying to defeat the overboosted Sephiroth at the end. (And requires an expendable death)
Cloud, I'm sure, would own Sephiroth any time giving he would have had the choice to do so.

Squall is only at his first mission (second if you count Laguna, Martine wasn't really a real Garden mission). Imagine how strong he'll be when he does more missions.

The fact thoses F-C SOLDIERS were defeated (and died) by the hands of an insignificant class soldier just proves how some F-C SOLDIERS sucks (Except Zack). Espescially when Squall was penetrated by a powerfull Sorceress and didn't died. (No wound, in fact).

During the Garden Confrontation, each sides could've had easily defeated or captured the enemy without necesarily finishing them off.

If you don't based yourself on game mechanic or abilities, what are you basing yourself on? Shape & Size, and the amount of energy they've received by other powers?
That doesn't prove much.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Last order changed that segment. Apparently Square Enix said, "Wait, that scene is cool and all but... Cloud shouldn't be able to do that." So, instead of Cloud defeating Sephiroth, the edited story is he jumped into the mako by his own accord.

And then Crisis Core changed it right back, as it should be.

[Goldenboko]

Let's go over reasons why this post is stupid :)


Dude, Squall & Cloud defeats anything in Instant.
Yes. Yes that starts a quality post so well. Dude, this one's gonna be great, gonna be smurfing great!


Cloud is forced into Teamwork when trying to defeat the overboosted Sephiroth at the end. (And requires an expendable death)
Cloud, I'm sure, would own Sephiroth any time giving he would have had the choice to do so.
Wait.
Logic, "Cloud needed help to defeat Sephiroth."
"That doesn't matter though. Cloud is still stronger then Sephiroth!"
"Why?"
"Because I said so >:0"
Mhm. Yep. Definitely impentrable logic right there. Stunned into silence.



Squall is only at his first mission (second if you count Laguna, Martine wasn't really a real Garden mission). Imagine how strong he'll be when he does more missions.
"When you can't think of a reason in real life that someone is better, tell them to use their imagination!"

...:rolleyes2



The fact thoses F-C SOLDIERS were defeated (and died) by the hands of an insignificant class soldier just proves how some F-C SOLDIERS sucks (Except Zack). Espescially when Squall was penetrated by a powerfull Sorceress and didn't died. (No wound, in fact).
This is my favorite part of the post. It combines enough stupid into a few words, to PHYSICALLY, hurt people. It starts by not using any proper nouns! Brilliant! If the reader can't understand what your saying! He can't debunk you! Great idea! *hi five*

Second part is even better. It takes a plot hole (how did Squall survive an icicle through the chest without a scratch) and pretends its a positive thing about FFVIII. My world is absolutely elightened! Go on.



During the Garden Confrontation, each sides could've had easily defeated or captured the enemy without necesarily finishing them off.
...And that would've gotten them... where? Just think about how unlikely that is. They're blowing each other up, and swinging swords at each other. Even little kiddies who are joking around with knives accidentally end up cutting each other. Sorry, I don't live in your pretend world where people don't die in wars.



If you don't based yourself on game mechanic or abilities, what are you basing yourself on? Shape & Size, and the amount of energy they've received by other powers?
That doesn't prove much.
I love this. Ignoring what I've said in at least 3-5 posts. STORYLINE!
Soldiers have been stated to have had Mako and Jenova Cell infusions boosting their strengths. This source of power was readily available in FFVII.

In FFVIII they rely on junctioning GF's which have been proven to seclude themselves in rare spots, and let's face it, you can't junction Ifrit on 3,000 people.

Soldier is a sect of the military funded by Shinra, their resources where unlimited.

SeeD is funded by Cid, who has no money, so had to get money from a Shumi, who ends up turning on him. I'm surprised they have enough money to afford ships.

EDIT:



Last order changed that segment. Apparently Square Enix said, "Wait, that scene is cool and all but... Cloud shouldn't be able to do that." So, instead of Cloud defeating Sephiroth, the edited story is he jumped into the mako by his own accord.

And then Crisis Core changed it right back, as it should be.

Really now? Dear god, this why I hate compilations.

[champagne supernova]

Last order changed that segment. Apparently Square Enix said, "Wait, that scene is cool and all but... Cloud shouldn't be able to do that." So, instead of Cloud defeating Sephiroth, the edited story is he jumped into the mako by his own accord.

And then Crisis Core changed it right back, as it should be.

Damn straight. Sephiroth jumped into the Mako, wtf!?! That's one of the best scenes in the game: Cloud filled with anger and wanting his rightful vengeance, pulling the Masamune out of himself and throwing Sephiroth down in his rage.

How dare Square try ruin that!

Yeah, battle mechanics can't be used. But there are other First-Class SeeDs besides Zack, Sephiroth etc. In VII you fight them in Junon, I think.

SOLDIER are bio-chemically altered super-warriors, while SeeD are augmented by the strength of their GFs. That is what makes SOLDIER SOLDIER and SeeD SeeD. So, in this argument, one cannot consider SeeDs who haven't junctioned or SOLDIERs without Mako.

I personally feel (as stated above) that SeeD would edge it, marginally. I think that the Mako should nullify the effects of Junctioning, so it would basically come down to skill. And SeeD are trained at a younger age, and are constantly fighting in tactical warfare. SOLDIERs are older when they join, and are more special-ops than involved in tactical warfare. Thus, SeeD have the minor advantage.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Let's go over reasons why this post is stupid :)

Debating's one thing, but mind your manners, please.

[The Crystal]

1) I'm almost sure that Squall survived Ultimecia/Edea's attack at the end of disc one, because she cured him(Ulti wanted Seifer to interrogate the party's leader(Squall) about the real purpose of SeeD).

2) Cloud NEVER was a normal person, even before Nibelheim. In Before Crisis, he defeat the Ravens of Avalanche, who were in the same power level of SOLDIERs.
Cloud didn't join SOLDIER only because he was mentally weak.
So the fact he defeated Sephiroth at Nibelheim, is proof of his strength, not of Sephiroth's weakness.
Not to mention that... It was a coward attack from behind.



In my opinion, SOLDIER have more chances, because they have the advantage of numbers(all of those Genesis-copies from CC, were SOLDIERs in the past), and in training(they have their own version of the Danger Room(from the X-Men) at level 49 of the Shinra Building).
And SeeDs are augmented only with GFs, while SOLDIERs are augmented with Mako AND Jenova-cells.

[Hyperion4444]

I laugh troughout Golden Boko's entire post. (I really won't even be making any commentairy on that one :eyebrow: :lol: :) )

Seifer, Edea didn't died, thoses Dollet Soldiers either..

I think with my many post I've managed to not only prove that SeeDs are very powerfull, but they could even duel them and win.
All the latests posts just say they would use teamwork, and if they're that good at it, try 10000s of SeeDs against just Genesis.

It's like saying that SeeDs is the strongest warrior in the Universe just because they can junction Eden. The biggest, most powerfull GF/Summon in all Final Fantasies.

When Eden's gets summoned in an instant to blast his opponents to the next Galaxie, and they can't do much either since he can't attack the GF.
Or BM Odin would slice they to shreds.



What do want for your answer? Eden, Odin or both?
The End.


If you're still unsatisfied, wait until Dissidia comes out, we see Squall facing off against Sephiroth.
When Squall wins, you won't be able to say anything else.

[Goldenboko]

The biggest, most powerfull GF/Summon in all Final Fantasies.
Knights of the Round plox.

Edit by Kishi: The remainder of this post has been deleted. Merely laughing at someone isn't an argument, although it is rude and condescending. Amend your habits if to remain on live thou dost wish.

[Hyperion4444]

Knights of the round is also powerfull.
Haven't seen any Soldiers using them... a turk maybe.

Wait till Dissidia arrives. ok?
when Sephiroth in Final Form gets defeated single-handlely by Squall, you'll have all your prof there you won't be able to deny.
Oh, no mention of GFs either, just the Lion Hearth.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Fighting games like Dissidia have to be balanced so that every player character can potentially defeat every opponent. So that can't be used as evidence of strength relevant to the original games.

[Hyperion4444]

Then what is "proof", in your opinion?

You refuse to take Dissidia into consideration.
You refuse to acknowledge the Battle-Mechanics.
You refuse to admit SeeDs abilities
Hell, even some of you discredit SeeDs for using Guardian Forces to boost themselves.


I can assure you one thing, thoses First-Class SOLDIERs wouldn't be powerfull without Mako nor Mako Materia.


Besides, thoses First-Class SOLDIERs would be too busy killing each one another to even bother about the SeeDs.
Isn't it why they're mostly all dead to beging with?
And you were all talking about how SeeDs were using teamwork....

[Big D]

I know for certain that Cloud, Sephiroth, and Genesis all have the strength to cleave enormous pieces of concrete or steel. We see plenty of this in Advent Children, and I've seen snippets of Crisis Core in AMVs and such. While they'd need weapons possessing strength that's out of this world, it'd also require a phenomenal amount of force from their own bodies and minds. Nothing in FFVIII suggests that SeeD have comparable physical power: Squall & co had to run away from the Black Widow in Dollet (I know it's defeatable, but the default outcome is flight rather than fight); during the G-Garden battle, Squall has to use a barrage of kicks and punches to dislodge the G-Soldier who's sharing a flying platform with him. SOLDIERs are actually strengthened, physically and mentally, by the procedures carried out on them. SeeD, on the other hand, have regular human strength and skill, but augmented solely by energy in the forms of GF and magic.

We also know that SOLDIERs have the strength, reflexes and mental acuity to protect themselves from gunfire, either by deflecting incoming fire with their weapons or by being agile enough to avoid their enemy's aim. FFVIII doesn't provide much basis for comparison - the heroes often encounter gun-weilding opponents, but in the Desert Prison cutscenes they all take cover when facing gunfire.

[Hyperion4444]

Don't forget, Quistis (A SeeD Instructor) Defeated the Goliath Black Widow. Squall wasn't a SeeD either.
There's a one hit defeat for that G-Soldier that only Squall can use, it wouldn't be a fun mini-game otherwise.

If your SOLDIERs are so smart, why don't they take cover?
Squall being hit by the Icycle and live is proof they're tought enought.

It's like the whole Ruby Dragon scene & Laguna (Squall's father arguably), would defeat the strongest FFVIII enemy.
Was able to Seal off a Sorceress who immensily surpassed his own powers until Squall & SeeDs defeated her. Stupid like she was, she fell into the trap.


FFVII has no concept or gravity (or reality much). You'd think that Vincent would float like in did in AC in DoC, but no. Not until he's Chaos where he has his two wings to fly.

In the world of FFVIII (Where Fantasy meats Reality) you can't fly on just one wing.

I got a nice suggestion for you.



If anyone would tell people on what they based themselve on, then there wouldn't be any confusions.

[Big D]

Don't forget, Quistis (A SeeD Instructor) Defeated the Goliath Black Widow.Absolutely, and she used a heavy, mounted machine gun to do it.
If your SOLDIERs are so smart, why don't they take cover?They have less need to. All SOLDIERs carry swords, generally very large swords; their enhanced abilities allow them to repel gunfire with their blades. When the situation calls for it, they do indeed use terrain and cover to their advantage - for example, Cloud's acrobatics during the Forgotten City fight and Bahamut battle in Advent Children.

Squall being hit by the Icycle and live is proof they're tought enought.He was caught off-guard and impaled through the shoulder; a reasonably easy injury to survive, especially since it was a clean and cold wound thanks to the icicle. He was definitely healed by someone else after being injured, though, hence the lack of a wound when he regains consciousness.
It's like the whole Ruby Dragon scene & Laguna (Squall's father arguably), would defeat the strongest FFVIII enemy.Hardly the strongest enemy in the game, but it was an impressive feat nonetheless - at a time when they were empowered by the 'faeries', or rather the minds and magical powers of the SeeDs, sent back by Ellone.
Was able to Seal off a Sorceress who immensily surpassed his own powers until Squall & SeeDs defeated her. Stupid like she was, she fell into the trap.It was a brave and creative plan, certainly, but doesn't really address the question of the relative strength of SeeD members and SOLDIERs.
FFVII has no concept or gravity (or reality much). You'd think that Vincent would float like in did in AC in DoC, but no. Not until he's Chaos where he has his two wings to fly.There is indeed gravity in FFVII - in the original game, the characters routinely jump distances beyond what regular humans (in our world) are capable of. Vincent himself can 'float' briefly in mid-jump; he does this when he somersaults out of his coffin, and later in the game as well. As for Dirge of Cerberus - throughout the cut-scenes, he frequently leaps implausibly superhuman distances, as seen in the Kalm level when he jumps to the top of the church spire in a single bound. Sephiroth, when he's begun absorbing greater power than ever before, is the only character to actually 'fly' - and in both the game and movie, he only does this when he's using a 'surrogate' body forged from Jenova's cells.
If anyone would tell people on what they based themselve on, then there wouldn't be any confusions.I must confess a measure of confusion at this statement.

[Hyperion4444]

1-Exactly.

2-Large Swords, really?
I tought only Angeal Zack & Cloud used the Buster Sword.
Others uses very lenthly but thin katanas.

3-Easy to survive? I'll wait to see if you can.

4-The whole point of the Laguna part was because he was a Galbadian Soldier, a strong one. Doesn't mean a Galbadian Soldier is just a Soldier he's not capable, just look at Laguna or Kiros.
Aren't the Green G-Soldiers Elite?

Oh, coming back to the Squall/Soldier mini-game, Squall can beat him up in one hit. A- It wouldn't be fun if he only had that has attack, it'd be over and done with too quickly.
B- Can you actually use thoses outside mini-game mechanix?
Punch, Squall wins.
Oh look, it's Sin!
"Squall punches Sin, Sin drops dead."
How's that!? (of course not, right?) Let's not mix the mini-games, like clouds.....

There's a CG where the Garden Explodes, but it never actually happens in the game. So if someone wants to defeat the Black Widow, it should count since the game continues, you'll use GFs alot. Or hide....

[Goldenboko]

Don't forget, Quistis (A SeeD Instructor) Defeated the Goliath Black Widow.Absolutely, and she used a heavy, mounted machine gun to do it.
If your SOLDIERs are so smart, why don't they take cover?They have less need to. All SOLDIERs carry swords, generally very large swords; their enhanced abilities allow them to repel gunfire with their blades. When the situation calls for it, they do indeed use terrain and cover to their advantage - for example, Cloud's acrobatics during the Forgotten City fight and Bahamut battle in Advent Children.

Squall being hit by the Icycle and live is proof they're tought enought.He was caught off-guard and impaled through the shoulder; a reasonably easy injury to survive, especially since it was a clean and cold wound thanks to the icicle. He was definitely healed by someone else after being injured, though, hence the lack of a wound when he regains consciousness.
It's like the whole Ruby Dragon scene & Laguna (Squall's father arguably), would defeat the strongest FFVIII enemy.Hardly the strongest enemy in the game, but it was an impressive feat nonetheless - at a time when they were empowered by the 'faeries', or rather the minds and magical powers of the SeeDs, sent back by Ellone.
Was able to Seal off a Sorceress who immensily surpassed his own powers until Squall & SeeDs defeated her. Stupid like she was, she fell into the trap.It was a brave and creative plan, certainly, but doesn't really address the question of the relative strength of SeeD members and SOLDIERs.
FFVII has no concept or gravity (or reality much). You'd think that Vincent would float like in did in AC in DoC, but no. Not until he's Chaos where he has his two wings to fly.There is indeed gravity in FFVII - in the original game, the characters routinely jump distances beyond what regular humans (in our world) are capable of. Vincent himself can 'float' briefly in mid-jump; he does this when he somersaults out of his coffin, and later in the game as well. As for Dirge of Cerberus - throughout the cut-scenes, he frequently leaps implausibly superhuman distances, as seen in the Kalm level when he jumps to the top of the church spire in a single bound. Sephiroth, when he's begun absorbing greater power than ever before, is the only character to actually 'fly' - and in both the game and movie, he only does this when he's using a 'surrogate' body forged from Jenova's cells.
If anyone would tell people on what they based themselve on, then there wouldn't be any confusions.I must confess a measure of confusion at this statement.

Big D: Voice of reason. <3

[Project G]

G2G, BRB tonight, I got better thing .....

Dude! You wanted a debate! Stay in it!

[The Crystal]

Sephiroth, when he's begun absorbing greater power than ever before, is the only character to actually 'fly' - and in both the game and movie, he only does this when he's using a 'surrogate' body forged from Jenova's cells.

Not really. Remember that when you reach him at the core of the planet, he is flying/floating.
And I doubt that Safer Sephiroth couldn't fly. I mean... Just look at him.

Everything else you said, I agree.

[Big D]

Not really. Remember that when you reach him at the core of the planet, he is flying/floating.
And I doubt that Safer Sephiroth couldn't fly. I mean... Just look at him.

Everything else you said, I agree.:D Good point about his appearance at the planet's core. I left out Safer Sephiroth, though, what with him having wings and being in a distinctly non-human form already.
2-Large Swords, really?
I tought only Angeal Zack & Cloud used the Buster Sword.
Others uses very lenthly but thin katanas.Not at all - in the original game, the party can encounter a number of third, second, and first class SOLDIERs at various points. They all have broad-bladed, two-handed swords. Sure, Sephiroth's sword is basically an overgrown katana - but that's largely beside the point, since he uses it just as effectively.
Easy to survive? I'll wait to see if you can.
It's still a serious injury, but the kind that can be survived pretty easily, with appropriate treatment.

[champagne supernova]

Not at all - in the original game, the party can encounter a number of third, second, and first class SOLDIERs at various points.

And these First Class SOLDIERs aren't particularly difficult to defeat. There are some SOLDIERs that are very powerful, such as Sephiroth & Zack, but these are rarities.
This works both ways. In VIII, Squall, Zell, Quistis etc. are exceptional SeeDs.

I think that it isn't very representative debating on the strength of a large group of people based on a small sample of them.

I also do not think that one can debate that SeeDs are only strong without GFs, and they're useless without them, hence SOLDIER is better. SeeDs are trained with GFs, they utilize them extensively, and they cannot be seperated. It is almost as innane as me saying that if you take away the Jenova cell's in SOLDIERs, they're useless.

And I just find that SeeDs have a greater purpose and seem to be better trained than SOLDIERs. Their training starts at a younger age. They are used to fighting in large-scale battles. First Class SOLDIERs tend to operate more as special-ops. Also, after the War with Wutai, they have not been tested in a large-scale war.

These two factors I believe are what makes SeeDs ever-so-slightly better than SOLDIER.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

And these First Class SOLDIERs aren't particularly difficult to defeat. There are some SOLDIERs that are very powerful, such as Sephiroth & Zack, but these are rarities.
This works both ways. In VIII, Squall, Zell, Quistis etc. are exceptional SeeDs.

SOLDIER First Class is a very exclusive group. (Yes, you can run around in circles and fight hundreds of them if you want, but that's a gameplay conceit.) And the reason they're possible to defeat is that you can't fight them until the game is nearly over, at which point your party has built themselves up to be comparable to the likes of Zack.

[champagne supernova]

And these First Class SOLDIERs aren't particularly difficult to defeat. There are some SOLDIERs that are very powerful, such as Sephiroth & Zack, but these are rarities.
This works both ways. In VIII, Squall, Zell, Quistis etc. are exceptional SeeDs.

SOLDIER First Class is a very exclusive group. (Yes, you can run around in circles and fight hundreds of them if you want, but that's a gameplay conceit.) And the reason they're possible to defeat is that you can't fight them until the game is nearly over, at which point your party has built themselves up to be comparable to the likes of Zack.

Over-rating them a bit. It's not like they're particularly tough to defeat. But if they're exclusive, then SeeD should have a serious numeric advantage.

[ljkkjlcm9]

watching the Dissidia trailer... Squall certainly seemed to keep up with Sephiroth pretty well(all the quick sword slashes and both taking huge jumps)... considering Sephiroth was pretty much the best 1st class SOLDIER... and I guess we can call Squall the best SeeD

THE JACKEL

[Hyperion4444]

Hey! I'm sorry, but I've started University, I can't be there 24/7!
I took some time in between classes but didn't had time to finish.

btw, it's a pleasure debating with you Big D, since you respect others.
I've never said SOLDIERs weren't strong.
I prefer SeeDs.

I think GFs comes closer to Mako / Mako Materia.
They uses spells, summons, ect.
So I'd rather base it on Mako that Jenova cells.


Gameplay wise.
All SeeDs can use 100 times each spells, refining even more.
All SeeDs can use Guardian Forces as much as they want. (unless..)
SeeDs don't rely on MP so they don't have to shearch for thoses hard to find Ethers.
GF Commands seems to be very usefull for some. (Revive/Recover)
I don't think that Squall is the strongest SeeD, you can't really know since you haven't played all of them.

Oh, junctioning Eden, makes even the lowest SeeD usefull.
The only SeeD I've played who's the least usefull is Selphie yet she gots The End that finishes off bosses in one shot.

[Christmas]

Not sure about the salary of SOLDIER but SeeD's is pretty bountiful. :bigsmile: