Why is Kuja such a noob?

[Suvious]

Guys heres an interesting question-
You go into trance every 10-20 battles, you know doesn't take THAT long! So why does Kuja take SOOOOOOOOOO long in becoming what looks like a girls beanie toy? Just baffles me why it takes him like 20 years to turn into captain pink.
Any comments?

[Bahamut2000X]

Because Kuja never does battle and thus never fills up his trance gauge ever. He clearly starts at a negative trance gauge making you have to beat on him longer to get a trance going.

[Goldenboko]

Pay more attention to the story! Kuja can't go into Trance, to go into Trance you need to have a surge of emotion, Kuja, anyable to have such could not. So he absorbed Brahne's soul, giving him a surge of anger, activating Trance.

[Karellen]

At least his trance went off when he needed it, rather than when fighting a goblin or something.

[Suvious]

^ Good point, but it defeats the ATB style! You get pounded at like a boxing puppet, go mental and hurt them caijun style!
@Goldenboko last time i played FFIX was when I was like 9! Then I lost it - now I'm buying a new one! So I can't remember all of those hugely inside details because I was young nd it was like 5 years ago xD
@Bahamut~ If he never does battle why is he like completely pwnage against you?

Still bugs me why Kuja can't learn to use trance and when he does it makes him look so stupid..

[Karellen]

Did he ever not look stupid?

[Vivisteiner]

What the hell!?

Kuja looks fricking awesome in both clips:

YouTube - Final Fantasy IX FMV - 1-18 Kuja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGSrPtVnICg)

YouTube - Final Fantasy IX - Kuja Trance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDRsVFFDzfg)


Are you blind or wut?

[Suvious]

He's a pink monkey in trance... That just makes me rofl when I think about it!
Zidane: Haha Kuja turned gay! He's pink as heck!
Pink Monkey Kuja: ~Ultima~ Boom... This pink monkey went Barret style and bazookad your monkey butt!

[Heath]

I've always liked how Kuja looked. Very outlandish and different. Effeminate and mystical looking, with a large sense of mystery and a theatrical flamboyance, a bit like Edea, but to a different level. I liked it. Slight melodrama, but I really like Kuja.

[ReloadPsi]

^ Good point, but it defeats the ATB style!

Mummy, why didn't they use a Phoenix Down on Aeris?

[Xurts]

I thought Kuja's trance looked great. Coolest villain since Kefka imo.

[Big D]

At least his trance went off when he needed it, rather than when fighting a goblin or something.Heh xD

Kuja's trance seems rather special, especially since he stays in that state once he achieves it. It doesn't wear off until he's defeated and near death.

[Momiji]

Okay, first of all, OP, but you have no idea what you're talking about. You're taking all of Kuja's character at face value. Sure, he was girly looking, but that was just part of who he was. Everything the guy said was sinister poetry, and was easily the smartest and most sophisticated villain in all of the Final Fantasies, unlike those who were blinded by rage and mommy issues *coughcoughSephirothcough*.

Kuja's my favorite FF villain because of all of this. He was in no way a 'noob'.

[Suvious]

I'm calling him a noob for taking forever to reach trance - I admit his first looks were cool, but his trance could have been way cooler than it was.
At first I was like o.0 Interesting he obviously hurts you, then he goes trance and I was like WTF THATS UGLY!

[Roxxas]

Okay, first of all, OP, but you have no idea what you're talking about. You're taking all of Kuja's character at face value. Sure, he was girly looking, but that was just part of who he was. Everything the guy said was sinister poetry, and was easily the smartest and most sophisticated villain in all of the Final Fantasies, unlike those who were blinded by rage and mommy issues *coughcoughSephirothcough*.

Kuja's my favorite FF villain because of all of this. He was in no way a 'noob'.

This isn't quite right either. Near the end Kuja was completely blinded by rage. That is the only reason he was able to enter trance at all. The only time people enter trance in FF9 is when protecting someone or very angry. Kuja was NOT protecting anyone. He attempted to blow up the world just because he doesn't want to face his own mortality. How would it help him at all? Certainly rage and not intelligence.

Also how could he have not known before Garland told him he was mortal. It should have been obvious to anyone with a clue. He killed countless other genomes proving they weren't immortal and knew Zidane wasn't either and Zidane was stronger according to Garland. Lets not forget either that his ultimate death trap in his own fortress was stopped by a pathetic frog. Sure the frog at one point was human but his mind was falling apart and with all the power Kuja had he would have to be stupid to let it happen. Kuja also let Garland play him like a fiddle for most of the story line.

Kuja was still a good villain in my opinion but he certainly wasn't smart and he gave in to rage just like everyone else. Certainly alot better then whatever the thing at the end was.

[Vivisteiner]

^He was smart. He was just really unlucky. There's no good having all the intelligence in the world when you're just gonna die really soon. Once he realised he would die soon, there was no smart option left. I guess he could have tried finding a cure, but that probably would have been fail anyway. So going into a blind rage wasnt exactly stupid, because he had no realistic option that would have been better.

[Goldenboko]

This isn't quite right either. Near the end Kuja was completely blinded by rage. That is the only reason he was able to enter trance at all. The only time people enter trance in FF9 is when protecting someone or very angry. Kuja was NOT protecting anyone. He attempted to blow up the world just because he doesn't want to face his own mortality. How would it help him at all? Certainly rage and not intelligence.

Also how could he have not known before Garland told him he was mortal. It should have been obvious to anyone with a clue. He killed countless other genomes proving they weren't immortal and knew Zidane wasn't either and Zidane was stronger according to Garland. Lets not forget either that his ultimate death trap in his own fortress was stopped by a pathetic frog. Sure the frog at one point was human but his mind was falling apart and with all the power Kuja had he would have to be stupid to let it happen. Kuja also let Garland play him like a fiddle for most of the story line.

Kuja was still a good villain in my opinion but he certainly wasn't smart and he gave in to rage just like everyone else. Certainly alot better then whatever the thing at the end was.

Its not just 'when your angry or protecting someone'. You enter trance after a huge surge of emotion of any kind. Kuja couldn't do this in the begin of the game, because he was a cool, calm, calculating character. He knew he had to kill Garland, to be able to have his freedom. That was what he was searching for the entire game, a power to overthrow Garland, at first, he thought Eilodons would be the answer, but once he saw that even Mog, after thrown into trance, could become super powerful, it was obvious trance was what he needed.

So, thats why he went to Terra. He needed to get into where the souls of the dead where kept (remember, Garland was blocking the Cycle of Souls). He threw himself into Brahne's hateful, evil soul, and was able to get a surge of anger to push himself into trance, and thus, overthrow Garland.

ALL of that was smart and calculated. After that you'd notice an immediate character change, because Kuja, was no longer himself. By absorbing Brahne's soul, he absorbed her Hot-Headed and foolishness, therefore, when he discovered his mortality, he did something very un-Kuja like. He flipped! Why? Not because Kuja is easily taken by Rage, but because Brahne is.

[Vivisteiner]

^Woah?

Ive never heard of that interpretation. I always assumed he flipped because he suddenly realised that his calculated master plan could never work.

Interesting. Very interesting.

[Suvious]

I always thought he got trance cause you kicked him in.. x.x

[Momiji]

This isn't quite right either. Near the end Kuja was completely blinded by rage. That is the only reason he was able to enter trance at all. The only time people enter trance in FF9 is when protecting someone or very angry. Kuja was NOT protecting anyone. He attempted to blow up the world just because he doesn't want to face his own mortality. How would it help him at all? Certainly rage and not intelligence.

Also how could he have not known before Garland told him he was mortal. It should have been obvious to anyone with a clue. He killed countless other genomes proving they weren't immortal and knew Zidane wasn't either and Zidane was stronger according to Garland. Lets not forget either that his ultimate death trap in his own fortress was stopped by a pathetic frog. Sure the frog at one point was human but his mind was falling apart and with all the power Kuja had he would have to be stupid to let it happen. Kuja also let Garland play him like a fiddle for most of the story line.

Kuja was still a good villain in my opinion but he certainly wasn't smart and he gave in to rage just like everyone else. Certainly alot better then whatever the thing at the end was.

Its not just 'when your angry or protecting someone'. You enter trance after a huge surge of emotion of any kind. Kuja couldn't do this in the begin of the game, because he was a cool, calm, calculating character. He knew he had to kill Garland, to be able to have his freedom. That was what he was searching for the entire game, a power to overthrow Garland, at first, he thought Eilodons would be the answer, but once he saw that even Mog, after thrown into trance, could become super powerful, it was obvious trance was what he needed.

So, thats why he went to Terra. He needed to get into where the souls of the dead where kept (remember, Garland was blocking the Cycle of Souls). He threw himself into Brahne's hateful, evil soul, and was able to get a surge of anger to push himself into trance, and thus, overthrow Garland.

ALL of that was smart and calculated. After that you'd notice an immediate character change, because Kuja, was no longer himself. By absorbing Brahne's soul, he absorbed her Hot-Headed and foolishness, therefore, when he discovered his mortality, he did something very un-Kuja like. He flipped! Why? Not because Kuja is easily taken by Rage, but because Brahne is.

I couldn't have explained it better myself. Nice one.

[Vivisteiner]

Dammit. For someone who is obsessed with FFIX, I sure dont know a lot of facts. Anything else I should know about Kuja before I jump off a cliff in disgrace due to my ignorance?



EDIT: Weren't there a ton of souls. Why did Brahne's one reign supreme then?

[Momiji]

Dammit. For someone who is obsessed with FFIX, I sure dont know a lot of facts. Anything else I should know about Kuja before I jump off a cliff in disgrace due to my ignorance?



EDIT: Weren't there a ton of souls. Why did Brahne's one reign supreme then?

Perhaps it was because she possessed a rage and anger streak as wide as she was? ;)

[The Crystal]

Kuja absorbed many souls, not just Brahne's. He entered Trance because he was pissed after the heros defeated him. And he had an anger tantrum because Garland told him he was going to die.

Kuja wasn't perfect. And he wasn't cold, calm and colected everytime... Just look at his little tantrum with Zorn and Thorn in the Hilda Gard.

It's easy to say "he wasn't himself" when he did something stupid, just to make him look perfect. But he isn't.

[Goldenboko]

Dammit. For someone who is obsessed with FFIX, I sure dont know a lot of facts. Anything else I should know about Kuja before I jump off a cliff in disgrace due to my ignorance?



EDIT: Weren't there a ton of souls. Why did Brahne's one reign supreme then?

There where many souls, but, Kuja specifically mentions Brahne.


When it fought Bahamut at the Iifa Tree, the Invincible drew
in a powerful spirit... Can you guess to whom it belonged?

Dagger: No...

Kuja: That's right! It was your mother's soul. A wretched soul that
clung to life to the bitter end.

That shouts significance to me.

Next, The Crystal, he he didn't "enter trance because he was angry he lost to the party." The game makes it clear it was a plan.


Kuja: It's Trance! You know how it works. But a normal Trance won't be enough to defeat you... You're all as resilient as oglops. Even tiny moogles possess the power of Trance... When I saw that in Gulug Volcano, I came up with a plan. It was easy. I just needed to borrow the power from wretched souls that can't die... Where did I acquire it? It was the Invincible, or should I say, that large eyeball in the sky? The ship sucked up the souls of Madain Sari, the Iifa Tree, Alexandria, to feed upon them...

[Suvious]

So he ate peoples souls!? Kuja is Quinas brother!?

[The Crystal]

There where many souls, but, Kuja specifically mentions Brahne.


When it fought Bahamut at the Iifa Tree, the Invincible drew
in a powerful spirit... Can you guess to whom it belonged?

Dagger: No...

Kuja: That's right! It was your mother's soul. A wretched soul that
clung to life to the bitter end.

That shouts significance to me.

The first sentence in your quote was the continuation of another one:


Kuja: The ship sucked up the souls of Madain Sari, the Iifa Tree, Alexandria, to feed upon them...

Kuja: When it fought Bahamut at the Iifa Tree, the Invincible drew in a powerful spirit... Can you guess to whom it belonged?

He was just telling the party everything the Invincible did, and that Brahne's soul was stronger than the others. But we don't have any evidence he was being influenced by Brahne, on Terra.

And:


Kuja: The souls trapped inside the Invincible welcomed me with open arms.

Kuja: They were fed up with being your prisoners, Garland.

Kuja: So, Master Garland. You are no longer needed. And after you've worked so hard...

The souls(plural), not only Brahne. And his anger tantrum on Terra wasn't the first one he had during his life. It's not out-of-character for him to do that.

What you stated is just a theory. An excuse to justify his stupidity at the end of the game.

All FF villains have a moment(or many moments) of stupididty where they commits a mistake. Why the "perfect" Kuja can't have one?


Next, The Crystal, he he didn't "enter trance because he was angry he lost to the party." The game makes it clear it was a plan.


Kuja: It's Trance! You know how it works. But a normal Trance won't be enough to defeat you... You're all as resilient as oglops. Even tiny moogles possess the power of Trance... When I saw that in Gulug Volcano, I came up with a plan. It was easy. I just needed to borrow the power from wretched souls that can't die... Where did I acquire it? It was the Invincible, or should I say, that large eyeball in the sky? The ship sucked up the souls of Madain Sari, the Iifa Tree, Alexandria, to feed upon them...

Yes you are right. But his plan involved a fight with the party. He needed it, to achieve Trance.

[Goldenboko]

You didn't include, "He lost to the party as part of his plan." Your first statement was far more inclined to try and poke fun at Kuja.

As for having many temper tantrums, I had never seen them, I've seen him get annoyed threw the game, but I've never seen him really get pissed, and Kuja made it clear that Brahne's soul was a powerful one, with the quote I've already provided. I didn't make a theory, as I never really made up actions or events that happened, I made an interpretation of ingame story events and dialogue. There's a difference.

Anyway, for the most part, I think I've said my part, except this: You often provide your ideas/whatever whenever Sephiroth is badmouthed in a thread, don't act as if I cannot do the same. Thanks, bye.

[Vivisteiner]

Anyway, I dont think Kuja was stupid at the end of the game. As I said before, what would have been the not-stupid thing to do?

Despite being the most powerful person in the whole world he effectively had no options at that point in time. Thats bound to piss somebody off.

[The Crystal]

You didn't include, "He lost to the party as part of his plan." Your first statement was far more inclined to try and poke fun at Kuja.

As for having many temper tantrums, I had never seen them, I've seen him get annoyed threw the game, but I've never seen him really get pissed, and Kuja made it clear that Brahne's soul was a powerful one, with the quote I've already provided. I didn't make a theory, as I never really made up actions or events that happened, I made an interpretation of ingame story events and dialogue. There's a difference.

Anyway, for the most part, I think I've said my part, except this: You often provide your ideas/whatever whenever Sephiroth is badmouthed in a thread, don't act as if I cannot do the same. Thanks, bye.

My intention was never poke fun at Kuja. He is a great villain, one of the best(if not the best) of FF. But I accept the way he is, I know he is not perfect.

The problem is... You discarded all of Kuja's character(his other tantrum and pissed off moments) and all the good reasons that made him have that anger tantrum(the fact he worked his entire life for that moment, only to discover that everything he did was useless, because he was going to die anyway), just to give support to your crazy theory.
Yes, a theory. You made up actions or events that happened, by stating that Brahne was influencing him. Something never stated or hinted during the story.

And I use facts and evidences when talking about Sephiroth, not crazy theories. For example, I know that he lost to Cloud because of his stupidity(arrogance). I don't try to make excuses for his defeat, to make him look good.
I accept the characters the way they are, and you should do the same.


Anyway, I dont think Kuja was stupid at the end of the game. As I said before, what would have been the not-stupid thing to do?

Despite being the most powerful person in the whole world he effectively had no options at that point in time. Thats bound to piss somebody off.

He was in front of the Original Crystal, the source of everything in the universe. He could have tried to use it's power to stop his dead, instead of destroying it. But no, he didn't even try.
That's the only moment in the story where Kuja was stupid IMO.

[Xurts]

The problem is... You discarded all of Kuja's character(his other tantrum and pissed off moments) and all the good reasons that made him have that anger tantrum(the fact he worked his entire life for that moment, only to discover that everything he did was useless, because he was going to die anyway), just to give support to your crazy theory.
Yes, a theory. You made up actions or events that happened, by stating that Brahne was influencing him. Something never stated or hinted during the story.
The "other tantrums" you mention, even though I don't remember any of significance other than his Trance, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, composed only a small part of his character. Every other moment we see Kuja he's always confident, collected, and calm, even during stressful situations such as the battles at Alexandria and the Iifa Tree. His last moments were nearly, if not the only times we see Kuja express such strong emotions like anger.

Kuja's actions at the end of the game are understandable. For the entire duration of his life he assumed he was immortal, and he devised a somewhat elaborate plan to overthrow Garland. It eventually worked, and he gained immense power through Trance. But at the moment of Kuja's greatest victory, Garland tells him that he is indeed a mortal. His burst of rage after he realized that all of his accomplishments would soon be worthless is perfectly understandable. Kuja didn't have any realistic options left to him at that point, so he chose destruction. It's not exactly honorable, but it's understandable considering his situation.


He was in front of the Original Crystal, the source of everything in the universe. He could have tried to use it's power to stop his dead, instead of destroying it. But no, he didn't even try.
That's the only moment in the story where Kuja was stupid IMO.
What was Kuja supposed to do there? Give the crystal a great big hug and hope it would grant him immortality? Not likely.

Brahne didn't influence Kuja's actions. He mentioned that she had a particularly strong and wretched soul, and I'm sure it enhanced his Trance more than regular souls, but I doubt it had any influence over his actions. He had control over his Trance, Brahne's soul just enhanced its strength.

[Forsaken Lover]

Gotta love the left-handed compliments Crystal dishes out.
He's not poking fun at Kuja when he brings up his "angry tantrums". It's kinda like how I'm not poking fun at Tidus when I say he "whines a lot."
Tantrum and whine are typically negative descriptions of anything. If you weren't poking fun or being insulting as you almost always are, you would have said he perhaps went into a fit of rage at imminent death or he was extremely angered by te fact Zorn and Thorn weren't getting the eidolons from Eiko.

But you chose angry tantrum, something you'd choose to describe a little child thrwoing around toys because he didn't get his way.

So, please, don't try to hide your fanboyism.\

At least The Crystal is honest here on what he thinks of Kuja
http://forums.eyesonff.com/2233091-post47.html

[The Crystal]

The "other tantrums" you mention, even though I don't remember any of significance other than his Trance, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, composed only a small part of his character. Every other moment we see Kuja he's always confident, collected, and calm, even during stressful situations such as the battles at Alexandria and the Iifa Tree. His last moments were nearly, if not the only times we see Kuja express such strong emotions like anger.

Another of his tantrums(or moments of anger, if you prefer) was with Zorn and Thorn on the Hilda Garde. And I agree it was a "small part of his character" but it was there.


Kuja's actions at the end of the game are understandable. For the entire duration of his life he assumed he was immortal, and he devised a somewhat elaborate plan to overthrow Garland. It eventually worked, and he gained immense power through Trance. But at the moment of Kuja's greatest victory, Garland tells him that he is indeed a mortal. His burst of rage after he realized that all of his accomplishments would soon be worthless is perfectly understandable. Kuja didn't have any realistic options left to him at that point, so he chose destruction. It's not exactly honorable, but it's understandable considering his situation.

Did you read my post? That's exactly what I said. There wasn't any "Brahne influencing him". It was Kuja's own rage(a justified rage).


What was Kuja supposed to do there? Give the crystal a great big hug and hope it would grant him immortality? Not likely.

Why not? Better than doing nothing. The guy didn't even try.


Brahne didn't influence Kuja's actions. He mentioned that she had a particularly strong and wretched soul, and I'm sure it enhanced his Trance more than regular souls, but I doubt it had any influence over his actions. He had control over his Trance, Brahne's soul just enhanced its strength.

Oh really? :rolleyes2
Dude... Are you reading my posts? That's exactly what I'm saying. Goldenboko is the one who thinks Brahne was influencing him.



And yes, I think that his motivation was very cliche(conquering the world(s)). But he is much more than just his motivations, and I like the rest(including his moments of rage, because it makes him more human).
Kuja is a good character, but as stated before, he isn't perfect. Unfortunately, people like Forsaken Lover can't see that, because they suffer a disease called "Fanboy Blindness". Poor them.

[Forsaken Lover]

And yes, I think that his motivation was very cliche(conquering the world(s)).

I've already proven this wrong before....

Motivation 1: Self-Preservation-
Kuja: I must destroy him before Terra's plan is activated, or my soul will no longer be my own!

Motivation 2: Proving His Existence and Worth-
Kuja: The weak lose their freedom to the strong.
Kuja: Such is the way of the strong. And it is the providence of nature that only the strong survive.
Kuja: That is why I needed strength.

So, stop making up things. For once. His goal and objective was to conquer the worlds of Gaia and Terra but it wasn't his motivation.


Kuja is a good character, but as stated before, he isn't perfect. Unfortunately, people like Forsaken Lover can't see that, because they suffer a disease called "Fanboy Blindness". Poor them.

Unfortunately people like The Crystal are plagued with Sephiroth Syndrome. Captivated by the large thick hard object in his hands, their repressed homosexual desires make them worship this worthless character above all others. Trying to justify their subconcious wanting buttsex, they make up pathetic rationales to "explain" why Sephiroth is the best and why all else are inferior. In fact, let's here from The Crystal on why Seph > Kuja and see just how flimsy his excuses are:
Setting the Record Straight - Page 3 - Final Fantasy Forums (http://www.finalfantasyforums.net/final-fantasy-ix/setting-the-record-straight-11324-page3.html#post188652)

lol He killed President Shinra and that makes him above Kuja....

Sadly The Crystal is a running joke on these and many other forums where people who don't share his poor affliction can see how Sephiroth is inferior to Kuja in every way.

[Flying Mullet]

Okay, you two have had your fun. Now knock it off. If you can't keep personal attacks out of this thread then don't bother posting in it.

[The Crystal]

Okay, you two have had your fun. Now knock it off. If you can't keep personal attacks out of this thread then don't bother posting in it.

I was just giving my opinion about the topic of this thread, when Forsaken entered and begun insulting me. It's not my fault that he is obsessed with me, and have no life.

[Goldenboko]

I believe Flying Mullet was referring to this comment for you.


Unfortunately, people like Forsaken Lover can't see that, because they suffer a disease called "Fanboy Blindness". Poor them.

Anyway, just felt I had to help Mully's ass :love:

[Forsaken Lover]

I was just giving my opinion about the topic of this thread, when Forsaken entered and begun insulting me. It's not my fault that he is obssesed with me, and have no life.

This from the guy who sent no fewer than 3 PMs to me with no purpose other than to proclaim your victory and insult me?

Wow. The hypocrisy is of epic proportions.

[The Crystal]

I believe Flying Mullet was referring to this comment for you.

Anyway, just felt I had to help Mully's ass :love:

Well, he insulted me. What you expected?

But whatever... Let the obsessed Forsaken insult everyone who disagrees with him. I don't care anymore.

[fire_of_avalon]

Shut up or your banned. How does that strike y'all?

And when a mod tells you to do something you damned better do it.

[The Crystal]

Back to what really matters... Kuja is not a "noob" by any means, but he isn't perfect. He was very smart, calm and collected, but he had some moments of rage, and one of those moments(at Terra) made him act a little stupid IMO.
If he didn't let his rage take over him, I'm pretty sure he would have thought about using the Original Crystal to help him survive.

[NeoCracker]

He actually may have thought about that. It may have just not been possible, regardless of what he did. In all reality there isn't a whole lot mentioned about the crystal until Memoria.

[Goldenboko]

He actually may have thought about that. It may have just not been possible, regardless of what he did. In all reality there isn't a whole lot mentioned about the crystal until Memoria.

Not much about it is ever known really. All we know is the Crystal is the original and we can assume that Life cannot exist without it.

[Big D]

Back to what really matters... Kuja is not a "noob" by any means, but he isn't perfect. He was very smart, calm and collected, but he had some moments of rage, and one of those moments(at Terra) made him act a little stupid IMO.
If he didn't let his rage take over him, I'm pretty sure he would have thought about using the Original Crystal to help him survive.Hmm... I felt felt that Kuja's world-destroying rage was an extension of his childish, selfish narcissism.

"Why should the world exist, if I'm not going to exist too?"

Not an exact quote, but rather a summary of what he was doing. He was prepared to annihilate all life simply because he discovered that he was mortal. That's not some grand scheme, an awe-inspiring motivation for domination. It's right down there with Kefka's 'reasons' for trying to destroy the world. When I got to that part of FFIX, I felt a little let-down - it seemed like they'd snatched a rather arbitrary reason for making Kuja a threat to the world, simply because the plot needed a threat to the world. However, FFIX was the third FF I'd played, after VII and VIII. Sure, geeks will piss and moan about how much they hate the plots, characters and antagonists of those games, but at least Sephiroth and Ultimecia had fairly compelling reasons for doing what they were doing. It's possible to see why someone in their position would be willing to destroy everything in the pursuit of their goals. An enemy who wants to become a god is, to me, more intimidating than an enemy who's simply given up on life.

[NeoCracker]

It's not like Kuja's soul goal was to destroy the world.

The entire game he is fighting against two things. His own mortality, and his inferiority complex. The reasoning behind his world destruction instinct was the inevitable realization that he could never fulfill his only goals, and the world would inevitably leave him and the memory of him behind.

Kuja was unable to accept his failures. That mixed with his severe Narcisism is what led him to do what he did.

Much better reasonings and motives to do what he did then either Seph or Ulti had I'd say.

Also, Hojo was a real villian. Not the main one no, but I still thought he was a much greater foe then Sephiroth, or most enemies from FF. :p

[Big D]

Much better reasonings and motives to do what he did then either Seph or Ulti had I'd say.I just don't see much 'reasoning' at all there... Kuja basically hand a tantrum - a colossal, world-shaking tantrum - because things weren't going his way. Destroying the world for the sake of destroying it.

[NeoCracker]

And what were Sephiroths motives exactly?

For some reason or another, he decided to do exactly what Jenova was going to do, and for the life of me I could never piece together why.

[Big D]

And what were Sephiroths motives exactly?

For some reason or another, he decided to do exactly what Jenova was going to do, and for the life of me I could never piece together why.Divinity. Power. By wounding the world with Meteor, Sephiroth would be able to absorb the spirit energy unleashed by the damage, gaining immeasurable power, to the point where he could become one with the planet, and with Jenova. He wasn't 'manipulated' by Jenova; rather, he shared some of her nature since he was partly comprised of her cells and her essence. He wanted revenge on the world for its perceived injustices against him, but he also came to realise he could gain absolute power, ruling all life alongside his 'mother'.

[NeoCracker]

Well, he knew for a fact that Jenova wasn't his mother, that is made rather clear at different points in the game, notably when he tells you he knows that.

The only real motivation I can see for Sephiroth is wanting revenge on the world that wronged him, which in all reality was limited to Shinra. Wanting to take out everyone else in the process, people who weren't remotely involved, sounds like a tantrum to me.

Basically the prospect of power just happened to fall into his lap and he decided to take it?

And it sounds odd that he wouls be partly comprised of her nature. If that were the case, then wouldn't the other Soldiers, for having Jenova Cells implanted in them, have similar urges? If not, why only Sephiroth? Is it because of the differences in how he was created?

If so, why did it take so long for him to feel these urges? From what I could tell, it wasn't until the Library scene under Shinra Mansion that these feelings ever started to begin with.

I'm not asking to prove a point, I'm asking to get a very clear reasoning behind Sephiroths motives so I can clearer argue the point.

To me, all of these questions are important to be answered to do such a thing. :p

[Suvious]

Sephiroth was Shinras "Super Soldier". He had a lot more cells in him, and he was birthed with the cells.

[NeoCracker]

But again, why does he not have any of those urges until the incident at Shinra Mansion?

[Forsaken Lover]

I quote myself on Sephiroth's motivation:

Motives- The key to any true good villain is their motivation. Why are they evil? Sephiroth was a noble soldier and war hero, admired by young men. One day, he goes on a mission and reads some books in a secret government laboratory.

Sephiroth: (reading a book) …an organism that was apparently dead, was found in 2000 year old geological stratum. Professor Gast named that organism, Jenova… Year, X Month, X Day. Jenova confirmed to be an Ancient …X Year, X Month, X
Day. Jenova Project approved. The use of Mako Reactor I approved for use… My other's name is Jenova… Jenova Project… Is this just a coincidence? Professor Ga st… Why didn't you tell me anything? …Why did you die?

Short time later...

Sephiroth: Don't you get it? An Ancient named Jenova was found in the geological stratum of 2000 years ago. The Jenova Project. The Jenova Project
wanted to produce people with the powers of the Ancients……no, the Cetra! …I am the one that was produced.


From the lies told him and his own bizarre logic, Sephiroth deduced he was “created” and a test-tube baby. This conveniently severed any ties he had with humanity which he seems to have also fabricated a story for.

Sephiroth: Long ago, disaster struck this planet. Your ancestors escaped… They survived because they hid. The Planet was saved by sacrificing the Cetra. After that, your ancestors continued to increase. Now all that's left of the Cetra is in these reports.

So, Sephiroth’s motives are a righteous hate for humanity. To avenge his “ancestors” and mother, he must kill and “take back” the Planet from humans. He then proceeds to perform his infamous rampage in Nibelheim.

But, isn’t this knowledge invalid? He wasn’t created. He wasn’t a Cetra. The “mother” of his was the real thing that wiped out the Cetra. This is fact. Yet, Sephiroth...

Sephiroth: ...Ah, but I have. I'm far superior to the Ancients. I became a traveler of the Lifestream and gained the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients.

That is Sephiroth at the Temple of the Ancients. Examine these quotes well. He has gained the knowledge of the Ancients which would include his righteous hate for humanity being non-existent. Thus, his motivation and reasons for going evil are moot.

Anything like "he just hated humanity" or whatever is just fan filler. It has no basis anywhere in the games. His motive to be evil was because he thought he was a Cetra. He knows he isn't. he thought his ancestors were killed by some random hazard. They were killed by an alien who gave her cells to him. He isn't even her son. He has cells of Hojo and Lucrecia in him too.

But knowing all this, he still goes on to be "like mother" in AC.

So he has no motive. He's a plothole.

[Flying Mullet]

It's possible that he was blinded by his hatred and ignored any facts that countered his logic of being the last Ancient and such and only saw what he believed was justification for his actions from the Lifestream.

[Karellen]

It's also possible that he is complete insane and does insane things that don't make sense because he is insane. That and he is a badly written character, like a whole load of other FF villains.

[Big D]

Sephiroth learned that he wasn't really an Ancient, during his time in the Lifestream. This is addressed in the game, when he's confronted with the fact and acknowledges that he already knows. Jenova's his "mother" in more of a figurative or symbolic sense. The most important entity in his life, the one from whom he inherited his powers and strength, and the one he's closest to. He knows full well that she's not his mother biologically.

It was also his time in the Lifestream that gave him the knowledge the launch his plan for divinity - the Black Materia, and such.

So he has no motive. He's a plothole.Not at all. His 'grudge against the world' was what got him started in the first place; he wanted the dominion he felt was his by right. As he learned the truth, that transformed into a willingness to sacrifice all life in order to achieve truly divine power. His motive, ultimately, is the promise of absolute power over an entire world. Pretty good motivation, especially for the progeny of a vicious and powerful being.

[Forsaken Lover]

Wanting to conquer the world is not a motive. It's a goal.
The motive is the reason you're even attempting the goal.
From your description, his motive would be he's just power hungry. And that's it.
He's got less motive and character than Bowser.

[Vivisteiner]

I think we are all missing a key point about Kuja (or at least not highlighting it enough). People were saying Kuja's motives were to 'destroy the world because no one should be able to live without me.' But what they fail to realise is that throughout pretty much the whole game that wasnt his motive at all. Kuja's motive was to 1UP Garland, get his revenge and sieze the power for himself.

It is only during that crucial moment at Terra when he finally realises that his master plan has one fatal flaw - he's gonna die. Now, thats gotta get anyone pissed. Suddenly the whole situation changes. Kuja goes from soon to be lord of all, to a nothing. And whats worse is that there is nothing he can do about it.

Or is there?

Lets assess what his motives from this point onwards.

"...I won't let it happen. I won't... I won't let this world exist without me!"

These are Kuja's last words before you meet him in Memoria.

And what better way to destroy the world than to destroy the crystal that sustains all life?

Anyway, the crucial point I want to make is that he arrives at the crystal before Zidane. This could be important, because it is therefore plausible that Kuja would have already attempted to gain life from the crystal, but failed. Having failed to gain life from it, he decides to destroy it. Remember that he dies straight after the Necron fight, so he must have realised he was moments away from dying. It really was now or never. So, in the end, what he attempted to do was quite reasonable and understandable. I dont think it was a weak plot device at all.


In summary, Kuja had originally a powerful and convincing motive. He had a brilliant, although discovered-along-the-way type plan, which he executed perfectly. And then suddenly all the circumstances changed and his plan failed. He suddenly realised he had only moments left to live, and he was unable to build a new plan in such a short space of time. In the end he settled for destroying the world.

There is the case for him being 'crazy' or 'stupid', if he did not attempt or consider gaining life from the crystal. But he arrived before Zidane so we do not know if he did try to gain life. For someone advanced in magic like him it may have been obvious immediately that he could not extract life out of it. And so he destroyed everything.

[NeoCracker]

Actually I think theres much more to Kuja's actions then that. There are multiple factors leading up to his desire to destroy all.

First off, of course, would be his Narcissistic nature of course, as shown by that quote.

Theres also another crucial reasoning behind his actions. Since the begining, Kuja's fate was planned out for him. Even being replaced by Zidane was part of the fate given to him by Garland.

Essentially every action he had taken was a direct attempt to defy the fate given to him by Garland. However all up until Terra, he had failed.

What came their was the death of Garland and the Awakening of Kuja's trance. It was here that Kuja realized something. No matter how much he struggled, no matter how much he fought, he could never escape the fate given to him by Garland. The destruction of the Crystal was the last attempt to take control of his own fate, which overall had been his goal from the beginning.

So to say Kuja's goal was simply because he didn't want the world to go on without him isn't fully true. It is simply part of his reasoning.

And the final piece of the puzzle, simply look at Kuja's upbringing. He was raised to be Garlands angel of death to cause chaos on destruction on Gaia in order to destroy the Eidiolons. His whole life that is all he has known.

So, what is a Narcissist who has known only destruction to do when he realizes he is locked into a fate he can never overcome, regardless of how much he struggles?

To be honest, I can't think of many things outside of wiping out existence as we know it. It definitely satisfies all aspects of Kuja's personality and dilemma.

[Vivisteiner]

^Good point. I always viewed the defying fate thing as revenge. But I suppose its a combination of the both of them.

[The Crystal]

I want to say that is allways good and fun to theorise, and I'm not against it.
But, I'm a guy who likes to go by the concrete facts and evidences. And this is why I'm saying that Kuja didn't try to use the Crystal to survive... Because there is nothing pointing to this.
His intentions were clear. He wanted to destroy the universe because he was going to die. Nothing more.

Maybe he tried to use the Crystal to survive. But normaly, in fiction, if something is not showed, not mentioned, or not hinted, during the story... Is because it never happened. Unless there is a confirmation outside of the story(official book, or interview with creators) that confirms it happened.

[Vivisteiner]

^Well you were earlier trying to argue that the crystal may have had the power to increase Kuja's lifespan. Yet there is no evidence for that within the game. Is it not fair then to assume that the crystal couldnt extend Kuja's life?

Kuja knew a lot of stuff about magic, so it seems reasonable to assume that he might have known about the powers and limitations of crystals as well. I dont view 'Kuja not trying to use the crystal to increase his lifespan' as a sign that he lost the plot and went mad.

[The Crystal]

^Well you were earlier trying to argue that the crystal may have had the power to increase Kuja's lifespan. Yet there is no evidence for that within the game. Is it not fair then to assume that the crystal couldnt extend Kuja's life?

The Original Crystal could increase Kuja's lifespam, because it's the source of all life in the universe.
I'm just using a fact(the Crystal being the source of life) together with common sense(if the Crystal is the source of life, then it can give life or increase the lifespam of someone).


Kuja knew a lot of stuff about magic, so it seems reasonable to assume that he might have known about the powers and limitations of crystals as well. I dont view 'Kuja not trying to use the crystal to increase his lifespan' as a sign that he lost the plot and went mad.

Yeah "he might have known about the powers and limitations of crystals", but what you have to remember, is that within FFIX's universe, the Original Crystal have no limits. It is the God of FFIX, the source of everything.

[Goldenboko]

^Well you were earlier trying to argue that the crystal may have had the power to increase Kuja's lifespan. Yet there is no evidence for that within the game. Is it not fair then to assume that the crystal couldnt extend Kuja's life?

The Original Crystal could increase Kuja's lifespam, because it's the source of all life in the universe.
I'm just using a fact(the Crystal being the source of life) together with common sense(if the Crystal is the source of life, then it can give life or increase the lifespam of someone).


Kuja knew a lot of stuff about magic, so it seems reasonable to assume that he might have known about the powers and limitations of crystals as well. I dont view 'Kuja not trying to use the crystal to increase his lifespan' as a sign that he lost the plot and went mad.

Yeah "he might have known about the powers and limitations of crystals", but what you have to remember, is that within FFIX's universe, the Original Crystal have no limits. It is the God of FFIX, the source of everything.

Using your logic if it isn't stated directly in game, its a theory.

[The Crystal]

Using your logic if it isn't stated directly in game, its a theory.

No. Read my post again:


Maybe he tried to use the Crystal to survive. But normaly, in fiction, if something is not showed, not mentioned, or not hinted, during the story... Is because it never happened. Unless there is a confirmation outside of the story(official book, or interview with creators) that confirms it happened.

See the part in bold? It's hinted in the game that the Crystal could give life(and much more than that), because it's the source of life and everything else in FFIX's universe. It's friggin GOD.

Now, where it's hinted in the game that Kuja tried to use it's power to survive? Nowhere.[!] google_ad_section_end [/!]

[NeoCracker]

It is the source of life. That is all that is known about it. There is no reason to believe it can be used to expand your own life.

Common sense dictates that a man afraid of dying is going to do whatever he can to stop himself from dying, and thus he would have tired.

Don 't you love how Common Sense can be used to arrive at so many different conclusions? :rolleyes2:

[Vivisteiner]

But just because its the source of life doesnt mean you can extract life from it. The crystal wasnt exactly going to give Kuja life just because he told it to. There is no evidence to suggest that the crystal is in any way controllable.


Aha, beaten by NeoCracker.

[The Crystal]

It is the source of life. That is all that is known about it. There is no reason to believe it can be used to expand your own life.


But just because its the source of life doesnt mean you can extract life from it. The crystal wasnt exactly going to give Kuja life just because he told it to. There is no evidence to suggest that the crystal is in any way controllable.

I agree with you both. But my point is... Kuja didn't even try. How I know that? Because there is no evidence that he did. There is only theories.


Common sense dictates that a man afraid of dying is going to do whatever he can to stop himself from dying, and thus he would have tired.

Don 't you love how Common Sense can be used to arrive at so many different conclusions? :rolleyes2:

But we have to go with what common sense dictates, and what is presented in the story. And the story tells us that Kuja wanted to destroy it. Nothing more.

If you think that he changed his mind in the Crystal World, and decided to try to use the Crystal... That's fine. Believe in whatever you want. But at least acknowledge that this is only a theory.

[NeoCracker]

Kuja didn't want to destroy it persay, he didn't want it to go on without him.

While both are similar, they are distincly different things.

If Kuja didn't want the world to go on without him, as he said, if there was a way to continue on his reasoning for wanting to destroy the world wouldn't exist.

And it's no secret he fears death, as thats one of his driving motivations.

So it does in fact hint Kuja would be willing to prolong his own life, but as you said there is no evidence of him trying.

Does this not hint, using in game reasoning and motivations, that there was no way to prolong his life?

[The Crystal]

Kuja didn't want to destroy it persay, he didn't want it to go on without him.

While both are similar, they are distincly different things.

If Kuja didn't want the world to go on without him, as he said, if there was a way to continue on his reasoning for wanting to destroy the world wouldn't exist.

And it's no secret he fears death, as thats one of his driving motivations.

So it does in fact hint Kuja would be willing to prolong his own life, but as you said there is no evidence of him trying.

Does this not hint, using in game reasoning and motivations, that there was no way to prolong his life?

So, you are saying that Kuja already knew it was impossible for him to use the Crystal, and then he decided to destroy it instead?

[NeoCracker]

He obviously new about the Crystal ahead of time, as he knew where to go to find it, so he had knowledge of it.

Whether or not it is possible is up for debate and theory, but it's obvious as even if it is possible, Kuja didn't know how to do it.

Due to the limited time he had to live because of Garland, it's most likely he didn't have the time to learn how to use the crystal if it's even possible.

So basically yes, he knew he couldn't use the crystal. Nothing in the game even points to the possibility of mortals being able to use the crystal anyway.

[Goldenboko]

Using your logic if it isn't stated directly in game, its a theory.

No. Read my post again:


Maybe he tried to use the Crystal to survive. But normaly, in fiction, if something is not showed, not mentioned, or not hinted, during the story... Is because it never happened. Unless there is a confirmation outside of the story(official book, or interview with creators) that confirms it happened.

See the part in bold? It's hinted in the game that the Crystal could give life(and much more than that), because it's the source of life and everything else in FFIX's universe. It's friggin GOD.

Now, where it's hinted in the game that Kuja tried to use it's power to survive? Nowhere.[!] google_ad_section_end [/!]
Its never hinted that the Crystal could save Kuja. The Crystal is never referred to as God, but as the Origin of Life. Thats an important difference. Right now humans can create life by putting a sperm and egg together, that doesn't mean we can save every dying man.

Your being bias, you can use whatever facts however you want, but no one else can.

[The Crystal]

He obviously new about the Crystal ahead of time, as he knew where to go to find it, so he had knowledge of it.

Whether or not it is possible is up for debate and theory, but it's obvious as even if it is possible, Kuja didn't know how to do it.

Due to the limited time he had to live because of Garland, it's most likely he didn't have the time to learn how to use the crystal if it's even possible.

So basically yes, he knew he couldn't use the crystal. Nothing in the game even points to the possibility of mortals being able to use the crystal anyway.

I was going to say that there was no way Kuja knew it wasn't possible to use the Crystal, because there is no evidence that he ever came in contact with it and tried to do that, before that moment in his life. But... You made a good point in the first sentence of your thread. "he knew where to go to find it". If Kuja knew where the Crystal World was located and how to go there, then there is a good chance that he already came in contact with the Crystal, and knew it was "useless".

Yeah, you can be right.

[Xurts]

Crystal, the paragraphs of mine that weren't directly under quotes weren't aimed at you, but at the general populace of the readers. I was going to add a note but I got distracted with other things.

Since my two original replies to you have already been discussed I won't bother adding to them.

[Vivisteiner]

Crystal, Im glad you accepted that we might be right.

That kind of open-mindedness is refreshing to see. Even in scientific fields often people will hold onto their own beliefs, despite there being alternative theories with better evidence. Thats why they say that a new theory doesnt become popular by converting others to believe in it. A new theory becomes popular when the people who supported the old theory die out.


Anyway, on topic, I think the fact that Kuja already knew about the crystal is a key point raised by Neocracker.

[Christmas]

Cuz he is still a virgin until that night with Brahne. That unforgettable night that he became one with her. :chocobo: