Are There Any "Pure" Villains in the Game?

[Forsaken Lover]

The three main antagonists of the game would probably be Queen Brahne, Garland and of course Kuja. Brahne was a woman tormented by the loss of her husband and who was then preyed upon by a devious mastermind, causing her to commit the terrible crimes she did. Garland was just a man created for the sole purpose of restoring his planet and people and he did that the only way he knew how. Kuja was a person who wanted to save his own life and show the proof of his existence.

So...are there any villains in the game who aren't sympathetic or deep? Who just want to destroy and kill and be all evil for no reason?

[Vivisteiner]

No, there aren't any pure villains, is the short answer.

[Rantz]

Zorn and Thorn. :)

[ReloadPsi]

Zorn and Thorn. :)

That, and perhaps Necron. To an extremely limited extent. If that.

[Vivisteiner]

Oooh, haha, maybe Zorn and Thorn. Yeah, they come closest.


Necron wasnt evil. At least, I dont see him as being evil. I just thought he made an initial, poor judgement call.

[Rantz]

Yeah, Necron was more of a metaphor than en evil entity imo.

[Trance_Kuja]

Zorn and Thorn are being 'ordered' to do things, if you say Zorn and Thorn then I shall include the Black Waltz, especially No.3.

[Vivisteiner]

^But Zorn and Thorn actively chose to seek out Kuja. They did this, despite his immoral action, because they knew that if they were servants of the most powerful person they too would have a small share in that power. They were purely selfish, and they chose to do what they did.

Black Waltz 3, on the other hand, was created and ordered to do what he did, and it is unclear as to whether he had any choice. He was brainwashed immediately. Its like a baby being brainwashed into believing something or doing something at a young age - it can be held responsible for its actions in a true way.


Zorn and Thorn were loyal to the Queen and King before Brahne turned bad and Kuja came. They would not have been brainwashed at a young age, and it seems obvious their decisions to support Kuja were there own. There is however the possibility that they chose to do so out of fear, rather than wanting power for themselves.

[Trance_Kuja]

I was under the impression Zorn and Thorn were working for Kuja the whole time, especially as Kuja knew they were one and the same being. I doubt Z and T would just say to him, oh yea we are actually a big ugly Jester beast split into two.

I thought it was Kuja who split them into two to infiltrate Brahne and be his inside men.

[Vivisteiner]

^Oh wait. We shouldnt even be calling them Zorn and Thorn should we?

It's just one beast.

Anyway, I was just reading this bit:

Zorn: "No one is here!"

Thorn: "Is no one here, really?"

Zorn: "Yes!"

Thorn: "Sure, you are about that?"

Zorn: "That is enough!"

Thorn: "Now, we do what?"

Zorn: "We are going to ask Princess Garnet if we can return to the
castle."

Thorn: "Return to the castle? Can we really!?"

Zorn: "I will not know until--!!! We must hide!"

[Marcus and Blank appear; Zorn and Thorn hide behind a statue.]

Blank: "Looks like no one's here."

Marcus: "Yeah."

Blank: "I guess this is about the only thing we can do for
Zidane... ...keep up the night watch and preserve
Alexandria's peace."

Marcus: "Yeah, I think so, too."

Blank: "What a peaceful night. It's almost scary... Okay, let's
finish our rounds."

Marcus: "Alright."

[They run off.]

Zorn: "That was close."

Thorn: "Now what?"

Zorn: "We cannot stay as long as those meddlers are here! We must
leave Alexandria!"

[The two clowns run out of town.]


It seems like they are not directly under Kuja's control, unless if Kuja would have preferred them to have been keeping an eye on Garnet. Whether they were under Kuja's control initially, do you have any other evidence? That was a good point about Kuja knowing about the beast.


But how would he ensure that Zorn and Thorn became Brahne's servants? Interesting. We really dont know much about their history.

[Trance_Kuja]

Also Kuja must have known they could extract Eidolons unless they overheard him talking about needing Eidolons and they said we can get them for you. But that's just as unknown as Kuja pre knowing anyway.

I take that they want to get back into the castle because Kuja wants them to spy on Garnet, as why would they want to go back now when they are known as the bad guys.

[sillybuttons™]

Most of the best fictional media past and present has antagonists that the author tries to convey some degree of sympathy on. Even the great Shakespeare plays to this theme with great effect. As does Star wars, all Dan Brown books, hell, even Pokemon. If you look at the other FF games you can find reasons behind the dark motives of the main "evil" characters. In fact I'll put a fun size mars bar up as the ante that you cant find any villain in anything without a sympathetic motive.:mog:

[Big D]

Good thread:)

The most villainous FFIX characters... guess that'd be the servants of Terra. So Garland and Kuja, primarily. They were created by the Terrans to do a job, so it wasn't their idea to be 'evil', but the Terrans' purpose is pretty grim: to eradicate all life on other planets, so that they can take that planet for their own and abuse it until it dies, before continuing the process on yet another world. We don't know how many civilisations were completely erased by Terra's depredations; all we know is that it was a lot. It's a purely selfish and wasteful strategy. Kuja and Garland knowingly served that purpose. You can argue that they aren't wholly responsible since that is what they were designed for, yet Zidane was part of the same plan and chose a better path.

:DNow, on a more light-hearted note... Tantalus are actually pretty evil in my opinion. Including Zidane. They're a thieving pack of criminals. They prey on the innocent, satisfying their own greed by abusing people whose only fault is that they've got some small amount of wealth. Not only are they thieves, they're violent offenders too. All armed, all carrying knives and swords whenever they're on a heist. Not only are they violent criminals, they're arrogantly self-righteous about it too, especially Zidane. Remember the flashback to his first encounter with Amarant? Amarant's earning an honest living as a guard for a wealthy family. Zidane has robbed that family at knifepoint, and Amarant's trying to stop him. Zidane blows him off as a 'bully' or 'thug' or somesuch, and boasts that he'll "knock [him] out in 30 seconds flat!"
He's going to beat a man unconscious for trying to prevent a crime... "you don't need a reason to help people" indeed. Never mind that you can't easily 'knock someone out' using a dagger. What Zidane really means is, "I'll stab you to death, or wound you so badly I can run away with something that doesn't belong to me".
Sure, there's the possible excuse that "Tantalus only steals from rich people, who deserve it!" which is dumb. Rich people aren't rich once they've been robbed. Tantalus are pretty wealthy thanks to their life of crime, but they'd murder anyone who tried to rob them, I think. The violence inherent in Tantalus is most evident when Baku punishes Zidane for 'breaking the rules' and trying to find the Princess following the airship crash. Baku attacks him with a sword. That's just smurfed up.
Speaking of the Princess... only Baku knew that his gang were abducting Garnet to protect her from Brahne. He never told his crew about this. So, what did the others think? Probably that they were abducting her for ransom. They were willing to take a 16 year old girl out of her home, by force, and incarcerate her to extort money out of her mother. If that's not evil, then I don't know what is. Especially when you consider that ransom demands are often accompanied by threats (or acts) or physical and sexual torture, if the money isn't paid in time.

:smash: I'm not actually that serious about all this, of course, though I am serious when I say that it's annoying to see Zidane treated like a saintly, awesome heroic figure when in reality he's a self-serving crook with an attitude problem.

:edit:
I'll put a fun size mars bar up as the ante that you cant find any villain in anything without a sympathetic motive.:mog:These stakes are too high to ignore...
I'd nominate Ultimecia for this. She's probably the least sympathetic of the lot. What's her motivation? To absorb (all?) time and space, becoming the absolute power in the universe. The only thing remotely 'sympathetic' about her is that, as a sorceress, she's a feared figure, "the world's enemy". But she probably wouldn't be the world's enemy if she didn't want to, you know, destroy the world.

[Shotgunnova]

Who just want to destroy and kill and be all evil for no reason?

Yeah, Black Waltz 3. He invented his own "KILL KILL KILL" mantra for that sole purpose!

[The Last Oath]

Ozma

[Trance_Kuja]

Good thread:)

The most villainous FFIX characters... guess that'd be the servants of Terra. So Garland and Kuja, primarily. They were created by the Terrans to do a job, so it wasn't their idea to be 'evil', but the Terrans' purpose is pretty grim: to eradicate all life on other planets, so that they can take that planet for their own and abuse it until it dies, before continuing the process on yet another world. We don't know how many civilisations were completely erased by Terra's depredations; all we know is that it was a lot. It's a purely selfish and wasteful strategy. Kuja and Garland knowingly served that purpose. You can argue that they aren't wholly responsible since that is what they were designed for, yet Zidane was part of the same plan and chose a better path.

:DNow, on a more light-hearted note... Tantalus are actually pretty evil in my opinion. Including Zidane. They're a thieving pack of criminals. They prey on the innocent, satisfying their own greed by abusing people whose only fault is that they've got some small amount of wealth. Not only are they thieves, they're violent offenders too. All armed, all carrying knives and swords whenever they're on a heist. Not only are they violent criminals, they're arrogantly self-righteous about it too, especially Zidane. Remember the flashback to his first encounter with Amarant? Amarant's earning an honest living as a guard for a wealthy family. Zidane has robbed that family at knifepoint, and Amarant's trying to stop him. Zidane blows him off as a 'bully' or 'thug' or somesuch, and boasts that he'll "knock [him] out in 30 seconds flat!"
He's going to beat a man unconscious for trying to prevent a crime... "you don't need a reason to help people" indeed. Never mind that you can't easily 'knock someone out' using a dagger. What Zidane really means is, "I'll stab you to death, or wound you so badly I can run away with something that doesn't belong to me".
Sure, there's the possible excuse that "Tantalus only steals from rich people, who deserve it!" which is dumb. Rich people aren't rich once they've been robbed. Tantalus are pretty wealthy thanks to their life of crime, but they'd murder anyone who tried to rob them, I think. The violence inherent in Tantalus is most evident when Baku punishes Zidane for 'breaking the rules' and trying to find the Princess following the airship crash. Baku attacks him with a sword. That's just smurfed up.
Speaking of the Princess... only Baku knew that his gang were abducting Garnet to protect her from Brahne. He never told his crew about this. So, what did the others think? Probably that they were abducting her for ransom. They were willing to take a 16 year old girl out of her home, by force, and incarcerate her to extort money out of her mother. If that's not evil, then I don't know what is. Especially when you consider that ransom demands are often accompanied by threats (or acts) or physical and sexual torture, if the money isn't paid in time.

:smash: I'm not actually that serious about all this, of course, though I am serious when I say that it's annoying to see Zidane treated like a saintly, awesome heroic figure when in reality he's a self-serving crook with an attitude problem.

:edit:
I'll put a fun size mars bar up as the ante that you cant find any villain in anything without a sympathetic motive.:mog:These stakes are too high to ignore...
I'd nominate Ultimecia for this. She's probably the least sympathetic of the lot. What's her motivation? To absorb (all?) time and space, becoming the absolute power in the universe. The only thing remotely 'sympathetic' about her is that, as a sorceress, she's a feared figure, "the world's enemy". But she probably wouldn't be the world's enemy if she didn't want to, you know, destroy the world.

All of this can be excused by the word Cid Fabool. It was him that gave Tantalus the orders to do these crimes. Zidane wasn't exactly saying he was going to kill Amarant or that he was going to fight him at all, it was more of a bluff to AVOID a fight. Also we as far as I can remember do not see Zidane with a knife during the flashback, meaning it was more of a sneak mission.

The only time we see them with Daggers/Knives is during the abduction of Garnet and onwards, but even then they are only using them for props. And wouldn't you carry around a weapon when you are living on a continent filled with monsters. Hey the whole game is Medieval based, every squire and their mother would have some sort of weaponry in their bedroom.

Baku beating the boys is just comic relief, he isn't exactly stabbing them or cutting them contrary to the fight animation. Just like a Dad smacking his sons for disobeying him.

Tantalus also knew Cid and Garnet were of relation, so of course they are going to trust his orders.

[Big D]

Cid told Baku to rescue Garnet, but the rest of Tantalus were apparently in the dark about all that - it comes as something of a revelation when Zidane finally hears it from Cid ;)

[NeoCracker]

I assume it was because they trusted Baku and his Judgement due to all their years together. Cause you know he's just a big soft teddy bear. :p

[Rantz]

Also, Baku would smack them if they didn't. :rolleyes2

But really, I can see where D is coming from. No matter which way you see it, no matter the goofy music, scenery and dialogue which makes it seem like a big joke, they did indeed intend to kidnap a young girl for whatever reasons.

[sillybuttons™]

I'd nominate Ultimecia for this. She's probably the least sympathetic of the lot. What's her motivation? To absorb (all?) time and space, becoming the absolute power in the universe. The only thing remotely 'sympathetic' about her is that, as a sorceress, she's a feared figure, "the world's enemy". But she probably wouldn't be the world's enemy if she didn't want to, you know, destroy the world.

To absorb (all?) time and space, becoming the absolute power in the universe isn't her motives it's her intent. We aren't really given much insight into motives during the game but I think we can safely say that she does not want to be the only thing that exists forever, she has no choice. SeeD are going to kill her and she knows it. I'd say self preservation is a good motive here. Who can't feel a degree of sympathy for a person who just doesn't want to die?:mog:




Who just want to destroy and kill and be all evil for no reason?Yeah, Black Waltz 3. He invented his own "KILL KILL KILL" mantra for that sole purpose!

All black waltzes, could have easily been Vivi or one of the mages that live in the village. The game is full of sympaty for black waltzes and black mages. It oozes it.:mog:




Ozma

But this is interesting. Though is Ozma really a villain? You are warned to stay away from it, then you are given a chance to leave it alone before it attacks. It might be better thought of as a wild animal asleep in its nest that you disturb and frighten rather than an intelligent being with motives.:mog:

[Trance_Kuja]

Isn't Ozma the dead spirit of an Eidolon?

Also, yea you can obviously sympathise with the Black Mages, but the Black Waltz's not so much no matter how awesome they are.

The Waltz have minds of their own during the time we see them and yet they still choose to serve.

I always had a theory that Vivi was meant to be a Waltz due to him being vastly more powerful than any other Mage including the three Waltz, but was discarded because he was TOO powerful.

[Forsaken Lover]

Ozma being an Eidolon is a theory made by Squall_of_SeeD I believe.
It might be true but I don't think there's any concrete proof of this though.

He is supposed to be some kinda little planet I thought.

[Depression Moon]

I would think Kuja was the pure evil one since he started by throwing Zidane down to Gaia in the begginning then going to Gaia and starting a continental war. He was doing plenty of evil things wayh before he found out that his life span was limited.

[Suvious]

Ozma was a magic bouncy ball! Can't you CLEARLY see that?

[sillybuttons™]

I would think Kuja was the pure evil one since he started by throwing Zidane down to Gaia in the begginning then going to Gaia and starting a continental war. He was doing plenty of evil things wayh before he found out that his life span was limited.

Could have easily been Zidane. He is a genome who was created by Garland to destroy. Programmed like a computer. It wasnt him who was evil, he was made evil. What if he had have been made to be a hero? It's a shame for him he wasn't, no one deserves to be forced to be evil do they? He obviously didn't want to be evil or he wouldn't have used the last of his life force to save Zidane.:mog:

[NeoCracker]

If they were programmed for evil though, then wouldn't Zidane have evil tendancies as well, given he was made to replace Kuja?

It's more Kuja was "Raised" to be Evil, while Zidane was not.

And Kuja didn't do the things he did against Garland to be evil, he did it for various other reasons. IE - Inferiority complex, Narcissism and the denial of his fate.

And he tried to Kill Zidane just before if you remember.

In the end I think Kuja saved Zidane because he had already failed. He could not deny his fate so any further struggling was useless.

Given that, Zidane is still his brother. And while his own ends could not be met anymore, he decided to use what energy he had left to save Zidane.

So saving Zidane didn't make Kuja any less evil, it just shows he's not all bad. :p

[sillybuttons™]

So saving Zidane didn't make Kuja any less evil, it just shows he's not all bad. :p

Do I detect sympathy?:mog:

[Christmas]

Necron