R=U correction

[Vost]

From the FAQ post in this section:
New information:
The FFVIII Ultimania guidebook is an official publication containing detailed background information on Final Fantasy VIII. According to this guide, the sorceresses in FFVIII have normal human lifespans. As Ultimecia lives "many generations in the future", it is highly unlikely (since this is a game that involves magic, after all) that she and Rinoa are the same individual.
So much for that theory
Heartfelt thanks to Squall of SeeD for posting information from the Ultimania guide and putting an end to the most annoying debate in Final Fantasy history.

The 'highly unlikely' part of the above quote is inaccurate; the inclusion of time manipulation as a central component of Final Fantasy VIII's plot substantially weakens any attempt to invalidate the R=U argument based on claims that sorceresses have normal human lifespans. Hence, a more accurate presentation is 'it remains unconfirmed' instead of 'it is highly unlikely.'

In addition, the R=U theory has greater support for its positive resolution than its negative resolution, but unless anyone wants to start that argument with me (with the 100+ page posts and diagrams that I rather enjoy), I will leave it at that.

[Jessweeee♪]

Yeah, but why would she try killing her past self? I mean...if she did that then she wouldn't exist in the future and couldn't send her konsciousness to the past to karry out her time kompression plans D:

[PuPu]

Make all the 100 page posts and diagrams you want. From what I've seen, they usually look something like:

Why is R=U true? Because of some particular reason.
Why is that reason true? Because of some other particular theory.
Why would that theory be true? Because of some other reason.
And so on.

100 page posts and diagrams show all these ridiculous amounts of unproven reasons and theories that supposedly prove R=U. From what I've seen, they usually just end up referring back to a previously stated and unproven reason or theory. Since all of those unproven reasons/theories rely on other unproven reasons/theories, you end up getting nowhere.

Not to mention that if Square really did intend for the player to think R=U, it probably wouldn't require diagrams and lots of proofs and reasons that are several pages long.

[Bahamut2000X]

Can't we just agree to just say "I hate time travel" and leave it that finally?

[Vost]

Make all the 100 page posts and diagrams you want. From what I've seen, they usually look something like:

Why is R=U true? Because of some particular reason.
Why is that reason true? Because of some other particular theory.
Why would that theory be true? Because of some other reason.
And so on.

100 page posts and diagrams show all these ridiculous amounts of unproven reasons and theories that supposedly prove R=U. From what I've seen, they usually just end up referring back to a previously stated and unproven reason or theory. Since all of those unproven reasons/theories rely on other unproven reasons/theories, you end up getting nowhere.

Not to mention that if Square really did intend for the player to think R=U, it probably wouldn't require diagrams and lots of proofs and reasons that are several pages long.

I never stated that the theory would be proven (hence why it is primarily a theory). I believe it to have significant support from the game that renders it plausible, but not definite. Besides, this is Final Fantasy, so the player can enjoy the game as he or she wishes. I believe that there is nothing in the game that eliminates the R=U theory; rather, it is bolstered by the game's plot. I'm not going to get into specifics now because the argument has been had for ages.

P.S. Once again, I never said that there is sufficient support for the theory to be proven. I only made the remark that the 'highly unlikely' part of the FFVIII FAQ post regarding this theory should be changed, since it most definitely has not been 'proven' that the theory is indeed 'highly unlikely.'


Yeah, but why would she try killing her past self? I mean...if she did that then she wouldn't exist in the future and couldn't send her konsciousness to the past to karry out her time kompression plans D:


If the theory holds, and Ultimecia is indeed Rinoa, then killing a version of herself from the past would not necessarily destroy her. This has to do with time loop logic that is greatly complicated by the addition of time compression. If time is compressed to a singularity, then there would be no time 'shock wave' produced if Ultimecia kills Rinoa in that singularity (given, of course, that she is Rinoa) because of the very concept of a time shock wave that you are referencing; the singularity of time caused by time compression would be a present composed of all temporal elements (i.e., past+present+future, by definition of time compression), hence there would be no where for any time shock wave to travel since all time is compressed in this one temporal singularity.

Therefore, killing Rinoa during time compression would have no affect on Ultimecia because everything is combined in one present, so it would be just like killing anyone else. Additionally, even if Ultimecia were trying to kill Rinoa before time compression took effect, the mere fact that she had already initiated time compression could theoretically somehow shield her from any time 'shock waves' from the past.

But this is all assuming that Rinoa really is Ultimecia (which she is) and that time shock waves do function as you are describing them (i.e., having a direct causal effect) in temporal physics (which they may not, but even if they did, there is nothing that states that the world of Final Fantasy VIII follows the same physical laws as our own- a point that no doubt greatly frustrates some individuals' attempt at disproving the R=U theory (Sir) by virtue of armchair physics).


Make all the 100 page posts and diagrams you want. From what I've seen, they usually look something like:

Why is R=U true? Because of some particular reason.
Why is that reason true? Because of some other particular theory.
Why would that theory be true? Because of some other reason.
And so on.

100 page posts and diagrams show all these ridiculous amounts of unproven reasons and theories that supposedly prove R=U. From what I've seen, they usually just end up referring back to a previously stated and unproven reason or theory. Since all of those unproven reasons/theories rely on other unproven reasons/theories, you end up getting nowhere.

Not to mention that if Square really did intend for the player to think R=U, it probably wouldn't require diagrams and lots of proofs and reasons that are several pages long.

By the way, the 100 page posts come only after the length of the argument begins to be compounded by reposting and answering the quotes of your opponents in the next reply. Therefore, if anyone decides to take up the argument of R=U (which is true), then eventually it will build up to 100+ (actually, probably 200+) pages of heated but respectful dialogue. You can begin by quoting this!

[Flying Mullet]

Can't we just agree to just say "I hate time travel" and leave it that finally?
You and me, brother. You and me.

[Suvious]

See my one idea is Squall dies in the future, Rinoa gets badly injured, gets frozen in Esthar, awakes many generations healed but with uber amnesia, and ofc without her knight goes super crazy.

[Jessweeee♪]

Vost, would you mind explaining that in Stupid for me? I'm a bit slow.

[Tallulah]

I definitely believe that it is highly likely that Rinoa is a descendent, or distant relevant of Ultimecia, but certainly cannot be the same person, as they are from completely separate times.

[Ouch!]

Manipulating time travel as a means to explain away anything is irresponsible and a poor way to make an argument. Any number of Serapy or Future Esthar's threads show how absolutely ridiculous it is. One can "prove" nearly any theory using such an argument. Given how ridiculous these arguments have become, I refuse to accept discussion of alternate time lines or other means of time travel as a way to effectively argue for the R=U Theory.

Similarly, the argument that FFVIII's world may function on an entirely different set of physical laws produces the same effect. One might use this theory to prove any other number of things.

Arguing for the validity of the R=U Theory inevitably dissolves into an argument revolving entirely around FFVIII's poorly defined diegesis. Since a diegesis, by definition, is information implied about a narrative's world, it is rarely sufficiently organized and defined to the point at which one may satisfactorily base a convincing argument upon it.

From what has been clearly established by Square Enix, in both the game and the Ultimania, it is impossible to prove the R=U Theory without resorting to unsound and grossly unproven theories about how time compression actually functions.

Time travel smurfing sucks.

[Avarice-ness]

Manipulating time travel as a means to explain away anything is irresponsible and a poor way to make an argument. Any number of Serapy or Future Esthar's threads show how absolutely ridiculous it is. One can "prove" nearly any theory using such an argument. Given how ridiculous these arguments have become, I refuse to accept discussion of alternate time lines or other means of time travel as a way to effectively argue for the R=U Theory.

Similarly, the argument that FFVIII's world may function on an entirely different set of physical laws produces the same effect. One might use this theory to prove any other number of things.

Arguing for the validity of the R=U Theory inevitably dissolves into an argument revolving entirely around FFVIII's poorly defined diegesis. Since a diegesis, by definition, is information implied about a narrative's world, it is rarely sufficiently organized and defined to the point at which one may satisfactorily base a convincing argument upon it.

From what has been clearly established by Square Enix, in both the game and the Ultimania, it is impossible to prove the R=U Theory without resorting to unsound and grossly unproven theories about how time compression actually functions.

Time travel smurfing sucks.

Ouch has spoken the truth.

Everything I'd want to say has been said above. ^

[champagne supernova]

I always felt that the biggest hole in the R=U theory is that the characters aren't alike, visually or personality-wise. Get me a photo where Rinoa looks like Ultimecia, and maybe I'll consider it. But they don't. Ultimecia speaks with an accent, which Rinoa does not. And Rinoa is a optimistic happy person, whereas Ultimecia is broody and depressed. I haven't played the game for a while, but I'm sure Ultimecia goes on about no matter how hard you try to hold on to something, it will eventually disappear. Time takes no prisoners, etc. That sounds more like Squall than anyone.

Not to say that there isn't a link between Rinoa and Ultimecia. I have seen photos comparing the two, and there is a some resemblance. The presence of Griever also suggests a link. So, I believe that Ultimecia is descended from Squall and Rinoa. But to say that they are the same person is ludicrous. Why would Rinoa want to be alone? She tries to control Ellone's power to cause time compression, but if she was Rinoa, surely she'd use that power to prevent her mother from dying? Killing the entire world is definitely NOT Rinoa.

Anyway, that is my view on the matter.

[Ouch!]

I always felt that the biggest hole in the R=U theory is that the characters aren't alike, visually or personality-wise. Get me a photo where Rinoa looks like Ultimecia, and maybe I'll consider it. But they don't. Ultimecia speaks with an accent, which Rinoa does not. And Rinoa is a optimistic happy person, whereas Ultimecia is broody and depressed. I haven't played the game for a while, but I'm sure Ultimecia goes on about no matter how hard you try to hold on to something, it will eventually disappear. Time takes no prisoners, etc. That sounds more like Squall than anyone.

Not to say that there isn't a link between Rinoa and Ultimecia. I have seen photos comparing the two, and there is a some resemblance. The presence of Griever also suggests a link. So, I believe that Ultimecia is descended from Squall and Rinoa. But to say that they are the same person is ludicrous. Why would Rinoa want to be alone? She tries to control Ellone's power to cause time compression, but if she was Rinoa, surely she'd use that power to prevent her mother from dying? Killing the entire world is definitely NOT Rinoa.

Anyway, that is my view on the matter.
Any number of things could have taken place to change Rinoa's personality between some kind of evolution from Rinoa to Ultimecia. Unfortunately, such gaps cannot be filled using evidence from the game. It's all speculation--wild, unsubstantiated speculation at that.

To believe such a theory, one must be willing to take several leaps of faith no logical individual would ever consider even remotely reasonable.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

Make all the 100 page posts and diagrams you want. From what I've seen, they usually look something like:

Why is R=U true? Because of some particular reason.
Why is that reason true? Because of some other particular theory.
Why would that theory be true? Because of some other reason.
And so on.

100 page posts and diagrams show all these ridiculous amounts of unproven reasons and theories that supposedly prove R=U. From what I've seen, they usually just end up referring back to a previously stated and unproven reason or theory. Since all of those unproven reasons/theories rely on other unproven reasons/theories, you end up getting nowhere.

Not to mention that if Square really did intend for the player to think R=U, it probably wouldn't require diagrams and lots of proofs and reasons that are several pages long.
Manipulating time travel as a means to explain away anything is irresponsible and a poor way to make an argument. Any number of Serapy or Future Esthar's threads show how absolutely ridiculous it is. One can "prove" nearly any theory using such an argument. Given how ridiculous these arguments have become, I refuse to accept discussion of alternate time lines or other means of time travel as a way to effectively argue for the R=U Theory.

Similarly, the argument that FFVIII's world may function on an entirely different set of physical laws produces the same effect. One might use this theory to prove any other number of things.

Arguing for the validity of the R=U Theory inevitably dissolves into an argument revolving entirely around FFVIII's poorly defined diegesis. Since a diegesis, by definition, is information implied about a narrative's world, it is rarely sufficiently organized and defined to the point at which one may satisfactorily base a convincing argument upon it.

From what has been clearly established by Square Enix, in both the game and the Ultimania, it is impossible to prove the R=U Theory without resorting to unsound and grossly unproven theories about how time compression actually functions.Thanks for doing my work for me, guys.

The only way to intelligently discuss R=U is to say there's no discussion to be had, because the idea itself is lousy and unfeasible. "Highly unlikely" is being kind. So please don't bring this up again.