Final Fantasy VII: Overrated?

[Overdose]

There has been a backlash against Final Fantasy VII for some time now. But when anything achieves the success Final Fantasy VII has, a backlash is to be expected. However, I feel Final Fantasy VII deserves the praise it has received and I will continue to speak out in its defense. In spite of the current trend that says you are a superior gamer if you bash and call Final Fantasy VII overrated, I continue to consider it a tremendous achievement for the Final Fantasy series and RPGs in general.

The storyline captivated many who played it, and for good reason. You have a madman torn apart by his past, who is connected to a company draining the life force from the planet. Two opponents beautifully crafted and connected together through a complex past and present. The twist is that Cloud, our main character, is also connected to both opponents, but has switched alliances. Add in a love triangle, human sacrifice (possibly the most shocking moment in video game history) and a variety of interesting characters you truly feel for, and you’ve got yourself one of the best stories in Final Fantasy history.

Final Fantasy VII was truly innovative and groundbreaking. It saved a dying genre of games by brining RPGs into the mainstream. It shifted the entire series onto a new console, the Play Station. This shift brought in not only a 3D world, but also cut-scenes, which enhance the storyline and the emotional impact on gamers. It was also the first Final Fantasy to have a modern, futuristic world and story. Final Fantasy VII took a risk by being a pioneer for the series, and it paid off.

Aside from the well-crafted story, lovable characters and groundbreaking innovation, Final Fantasy VII has several other qualities that make it one of the greatest games of all-time:
1. The musical score brought tears to many gamers - such as when Aeris dies, and constantly set the perfect tone for each situation. “One-Winged-Angel” being one of the most memorable tracks of any Final Fantasy game.
2. Final Fantasy VII has a user-friendly system that doesn't have the strengths and weaknesses of your characters predetermined, but allows you to choose the strengths and weaknesses of each character individually. Additionally, the materia system provides countless combinations of magic and summons, which gives a variety of abilities to each character. Limit breaks are also a huge bonus!
3. Final Fantasy VII also provides many side quests, games and fun. Golden Saucer (too much to do, so little time!), cross-dressing (clever and funny!), snowboarding, hidden locations, being able to operate a car, submarine and a flying ship, plus hidden flashbacks (Cloud's connection to Zach etc. etc.) and extra background information on numerous characters (Aeris being an Ancient etc. etc.), making the scope of Final Fantasy VII vast and rich.

Critics will tell you that most Final Fantasy VII fans give way to nostalgia. But why is that a bad thing? If a game creates such an impact that when re-playing it you feel such a strong emotional attachment, you know the game did something right. This is why Final Fantasy VII lives on today and is remembered as probably the best game in the series, if not one of the greatest games of all-time.

Innovation and this games qualities that made it a pioneer which pushed the series forward to something fresh and groundbreaking, accompanied by its storyline full of deep-seeded connections between the past and present, makes Final Fantasy VII worthy of its praise and recognition. Call me a fanboy all you want, because it won’t take away the legacy Final Fantasy VII has and truly deserves.

http://news.filefront.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/ff7-logo.jpg

[Jessica_wohoo]

I couldn't say it better myself. I've played all of the FF games and Final Fantasy VII happens to be my favorite one of them. Possibly my favorite game of all times.

I do not see how it's overrated. Either you like it or you don't, it's a personal opinion. Final Fantasy VII is though the most popular game of all the FF games so it must have something special the other ones don't.

With that being said, go ahead and call me a fangurl, I don't care, it won't change my opinions about the game! :D

[Karellen]

God Bless America.

[Overdose]

I would also like to point out that when reading on numerous forums, it has become apparent that many of the "fanboys" are actually impostors. Typically they are people who hate Final Fantasy VII, and want to make both FFVII and the fans look bad by posting stupid rants. Pretty clever, but I'm not falling for it. :)

[Raebus]

I think it's an okay game but not the best in the series. So yes, I think its overrated. I can play through it once but I really have to force myself to play it and then I just forget about it.

[Marky Tee]

i think its overated only a little casue 9 and possibly 8 are better than it IMO but it still deserves all the praise it gets for being such a great game

[Overdose]

PS: I've edited my post several times to include more points I wanted to raise. So for those who have already read, you may want to go back and re-read some parts. :p

[ReloadPsi]

I'm going to do the coolest, most rebellious thing ever. I will expect the entire world to love me for it, and if you don't, you are a moron. Never mind if your friends tell you you're right and I am wrong. They are wrong too. I am right. Here goes.

Final Fantasy VII, Metal Gear Solid 4, Super Mario 64, Chrono Trigger and every other incredibly successful game you've ever played, heard of or seen, all suck.

Look at that! I didn't even have to give my opinion any foundation! Never mind the fact that there's a whole load of great aspects about every single one of those games that go against me! I swam against the current and now I'm cool! So cool! You all love me, and you all think I'm smurfing awesome! I made you all my bitches!

Anyone can slag off Final Fantasy VII. It won't make the better aspects of the game any worse. Idiots. Gamers today are as bad as soccer/football fans have been for the best part of a century. Good going dicks.

[Yar]

Final Fantasy VII is overrated. But, it isn't a bad game.

It's just like other overrated games like Halo, World of Warcraft, and Chrono Trigger that are okay, but have have really big, loud fan bases.

The story was same basis for II and VI, just tweaked for its own purposes.

The battle system was nothing new; ATBs are used in IV, V and VI, and then later in VIII, IX and X-2.

Materia was new and innovative, but all Final Fantasy installments have new and innovative systems. VI has Espers, VIII has junctioning, and XII has the licenses allowing for total customization.

The graphics were 3D, but when the game just came out, they were still disgusting in my opinion. The only time they seemed okay was during battles when you people "grew."

The music isn't Uematsu's best in the series. IV, V and maybe even VI had arguably better scores.

The game is easy. That comes with almost all new games these days. Barely any time is required grinding, if any. There is no obligation to train all your characters either. You can basically pick three characters and stick with them.

I gave it 3 "mehs" out of 5. That's pretty much average.

It might be best for everyone to learn the definition of "overrated". Overrated doesn't mean "bad." It means that people say it's better than it actually is.

[Raebus]

I don't think your voice of reason is going to get through to them. They're like daleks, all other opinions that aren't positive and full of the words "best" and "ever" are bad and should be EXTERMINATED EXTERMINATE.

[Croyles]

Who cares anyway? Some people like the game, and some dont. Saying it is overrated or not is a matter of opinion.
FFVII happens to be one of my favourites so hence my slightly contradicting signature. If people have a problem with the fact that its one of my favourites and the favourite of many more they can suck it. They dont have to like it though.
I wouldnt call Yaridovich's post a voice of reason though, as its just on the other end of the spectrum, just because you think the game isnt as great as people say it is, doesnt mean thats a fact. He's obviously entitled not to like it, but you cant pretend that saying FF7 is overrated or a bad game, whatever your point was, is a universal truth.

Just play the damn games you enjoy people and stop bickering, this goes to everyone.

[Vivisteiner]

An awesome game. I wouldnt say its overrated, I would just say that other FF games are underrated. Personally, I think if Final Fantasy IX became the one and only mother religion of this world, it would still be underrated.

[Yar]

Who cares anyway? Some people like the game, and some dont. Saying it is overrated or not is a matter of opinion.
FFVII happens to be one of my favourites so hence my slightly contradicting signature. If people have a problem with the fact that its one of my favourites and the favourite of many more they can suck it. They dont have to like it though.
I wouldnt call Yaridovich's post a voice of reason though, as its just on the other end of the spectrum, just because you think the game isnt as great as people say it is, doesnt mean thats a fact. He's obviously entitled not to like it, but you cant pretend that saying FF7 is overrated or a bad game, whatever your point was, is a universal truth.

Just play the damn games you enjoy people and stop bickering, this goes to everyone.

True, but I realize what I say is my opinion. Some people on here would argue that VII is the best as a fact.

It's not just the people who don't think it's the best that have the problem. The ones who kiss its ass need to learn the difference between fact and opinion as well.

[Croyles]

Yes thats true. I was trying to make this go to both sides.

[Dreddz]

Its a game people like to hate because its so popular. You can name the games many flaws but as a whole even with its flaws its something quite special that none of the other Final Fantasy games have been able to be.

People also like to give reasons as to why its popular. The most common being that it is the first RPG a lot of people played. Well that's crap because it sure as hell wasn't my first RPG or Final Fantasy and I'm sure a lot of people are the same.

Its a great game and to be honest you make yourself look like a fool if your calling it bad. Its not for everyone, and I doubt anyone new to the game can get into it these days but FFVII stills needs to be recognized as one of the best RPG's of all time. The legions of Final Fantasy VII fans out there can't all be wrong.

[The Crystal]

It was overrated some years ago, but not today. There are some people who still overrate it, of course, but they are the minority.
Today, the majority of gamers like to bash and call it "overrated" just to look cool.

At least, that's the impression I have.

[Raebus]

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8371/picardfacepalmze2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8371/picardfacepalmze2.f2dcca43dd.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=183&i=picardfacepalmze2.jpg)

Anyone who thinks its good or okay but not as legendary as everyone else seems to think can't win, it seems. So, I'm just using the piccard image to show how I feel.

[Overdose]

The story was same basis for II and VI, just tweaked for its own purposes.
Personally, I feel the connection Cloud has with Shinra and Sephiroth, and the back-story including Zach and Jenova, makes FFVII one of the more complex stories. It deals a lot with mixing the past and present, and switching alliances. To me, it's ones of the better stories. :)


Materia was new and innovative, but all Final Fantasy installments have new and innovative systems. VI has Espers, VIII has junctioning, and XII has the licenses allowing for total customization.
Yes, all installments have new and innovative systems. But unlike the majority of Final Fantasy's prior, it has no class system. This paved the way for systems to come. It allowed you, the gamer, to choose the strengths and weaknesses of each character.

Plus, maybe the reason FFVIII has junctoning and Final Fantasy XII has total customization is because of the groundwork left by Final Fantasy VII.


The graphics were 3D, but when the game just came out, they were still disgusting in my opinion. The only time they seemed okay was during battles when you people "grew."
The graphics may not have been perfect, but they were definitely a step up and something new. Aside from the blocky characters, the environments these characters were placed in were rich in detail and vast in scope.

You must also remember this was the first futuristic story and environment, adding to its innovation.


The music isn't Uematsu's best in the series. IV, V and maybe even VI had arguably better scores.
I'm sorry, but when I hear the theme for Aeris, I can't help but feel a wave of emotions. Same for when I hear "One-Winged-Angel". But I guess this is a difference of opinion.


The game is easy. That comes with almost all new games these days. Barely any time is required grinding, if any. There is no obligation to train all your characters either. You can basically pick three characters and stick with them.
Maybe for those 16 and over. But many who played it when they were 12, as many of us did, didn't have such an easy time.


It might be best for everyone to learn the definition of "overrated". Overrated doesn't mean "bad." It means that people say it's better than it actually is.
I don't think a game that did as much for RPGs as Final Fantasy VII did can be considered overrated. It was extremely innovative, and provided new elements the series had NEVER seen before.

[Raebus]

Just give up, Yari. Let them think what they want to think. They think its not overrated and thats their opinion. Me and you think its overrated and thats our opinion.

[Overdose]

Just give up, Yari. Let them think what they want to think. They think its not overrated and thats their opinion. Me and you think its overrated and thats our opinion.
What's the point of a forum? Discussion.

I'm surprised you don't know that by now.

[Raebus]

I know that but its pointless argueing with you. You won't be changing your mind any time soon or you won't accept that it MIGHT be overrated anytime soon no matter what anyone says.

Oh and don't talk to me like I'm a newbie, okay?

[Overdose]

I know that but its pointless argueing with you.
You mean arguing?

Anyway, I'm happy to admit people have a difference of opinion. But that's what makes forums interesting. So if you don't want to debate, or discuss, please, leave this thread. Let Yaridovich make up his own mind, because maybe he can stand the heat.

PS: Why would you say its pointless when you haven't even discussed anything with me? Seems like a huge leap and assumption. :rolleyes2

[Raebus]

Lets just forget about this.

[Croyles]

Why does he need to accept that its overrated? I dont get. He doesnt think its overrated so leave it at that, you think its overrated and thats ok. I dont see any 'reasoning' behind this, as you love to use that word :p

Everyone can carry on stating their opinions, thats what a forum is for, but dont expect to change someones mind.

[PeneloRatsbane]

NOOO ITS NOT OVERRATED! it is the best thing since sliced bread, actually since before then actually
I just finished DOC and am hungry to start playing VII again. no game has the feel, not even Legend of Zelda OoT

[The Crystal]

Many people who hate FFVII(or just its fanbase) are accustomed to use "it's 0verr4ted!1one" as a form of insult against the game or the fanbase.
This is why it's so hard for them to accept that FFVII might not be overrated anymore.

[Avarice-ness]

I didn't mind the hype when FF7 came out, when it first came out, it lived up to the hype, but 10 years later? Nah, I don't think it lives up the hype created over 10+ years.

[Vivisteiner]

Its a game people like to hate because its so popular. You can name the games many flaws but as a whole even with its flaws its something quite special that none of the other Final Fantasy games have been able to be.
Pray allow me to ask: how so?


The legions of Final Fantasy VII fans out there can't all be wrong.
Oh really?

What about the millions of people who buy trash music then? (naming no names) Its a weak argument. Just because lots of people like it - doesnt mean its good. Then again, we all have our own unique definition of 'good'.


I don't think a game that did as much for RPGs as Final Fantasy VII did can be considered overrated. It was extremely innovative, and provided new elements the series had NEVER seen before.
Lots of FFs did that. In fact, pretty much all of them did that...


I'm sorry, but when I hear the theme for Aeris, I can't help but feel a wave of emotions. Same for when I hear "One-Winged-Angel". But I guess this is a difference of opinion.
I get the emotion too! But I also get emotion when 'Succession of Witches' plays, or 'To Zanarkand' or 'Symphonic Poem Hope' or 'You're not alone.' Each Final Fantasy I've played has music which cues the emotions. Personally, I find that FFIX does it the most for me, but they all definitely do it. And they were doing it before VII as well.


Yes, all installments have new and innovative systems. But unlike the majority of Final Fantasy's prior, it has no class system. This paved the way for systems to come. It allowed you, the gamer, to choose the strengths and weaknesses of each character.

Plus, maybe the reason FFVIII has junctoning and Final Fantasy XII has total customization is because of the groundwork left by Final Fantasy VII.
Well, I've always prefered the class system myself, so I dont see that system as being particularly great. I dont think it was really more innovative than VIII's battle system or XII's battle system anyway.



Anyway, to this day I am still puzzling over the phenomenon which is FFVII's great success. I have come to the conclusion that it was just a great game, perfectly time. Unlike FFIX which was a Godly game, poorly timed. Thats my opinion any way.


God, I hate damned opinions. I wish we could use facts...but we cant.

[Wolf Kanno]

Lord knows I'm tired of this debate. I also know that a few people (most likely Bolivar) will chime in after I post.

VII is a game I want to like, but for me, it has too many flaws in its story, characters and gameplay for me to honestly say its the best in the series, let alone the best RPG of all time. It is my second most played FF and part of it is me trying to figure out why people love it so fanatically, and also because deep down its a really good game but a flawed one at that. Its a game I hated for a long time and only in recent years (after I was introduced to a really bad FF game) that I realized I hated the game more for its obnoxious fanbase than because the game itself is bad. Even today, I'm more willing to rip into the game still just to shut up the fanbase.

Now don't get me wrong, VII does get alot of credit I don't feel its due but most of it I let slide cause it comes down to personal opinion. The only one I still argue is that it was innovative in a good way. Its only true innovation was that it was the first fully 3D RPG. Wild ARMS, Persona, and Arc the Lad 3 used 3D polygons in their gameplay and had pre-rendered cutscenes before VII existed. Though I do feel VII did it better than all its predecessors before it. I feel VII's only true accomplishment was that it brought RPGs into the mainstream.

Btw, RPGs were not dying before VII, they were just a niche market outside of Japan. Also, the genre was starting to get more mainstream attention due to CT, Earthbound, and Super Mario RPG.

To me better games existed before it and better games came after it. My gripe with the fanbase is with those who treat it as the Alpha and Omega of the Genre.

[Yar]

Okay, if you will, please allow me to respond to your essay of a post. :p

Please, keep in mind. I don't hate VII, although it is one of least favorite of the series I don't think it's a bad game.



The story was same basis for II and VI, just tweaked for its own purposes.
Personally, I feel the connection Cloud has with Shinra and Sephiroth, and the back-story including Zach and Jenova, makes FFVII one of the more complex stories. It deals a lot with mixing the past and present, and switching alliances. To me, it's ones of the better stories. :)

I'm glad you enjoyed it. However it seemed recycled to me. Empire A is doing bad things so Resistance Group B has to stop it. Then they added such things to make the story more complex and seem refreshing.



Materia was new and innovative, but all Final Fantasy installments have new and innovative systems. VI has Espers, VIII has junctioning, and XII has the licenses allowing for total customization.
Yes, all installments have new and innovative systems. But unlike the majority of Final Fantasy's prior, it has no class system. This paved the way for systems to come. It allowed you, the gamer, to choose the strengths and weaknesses of each character.

Plus, maybe the reason FFVIII has junctoning and Final Fantasy XII has total customization is because of the groundwork left by Final Fantasy VII.

VII had about as much of a class system as VI. Anyone can be really strong or really intelligent, you just have to take actions to make them so. But the classes are there. I'd like you to prove to me that Tifa is not a monk or that Cloud is archer.

I think that VI had more of an influence on VIII's junctioning system than VII. You take a summoning monster and associate them with a hero for certain benefits. X seemed to set the basis for XII's licensing board as well. VII seems rather absent from XII's license board.



The graphics were 3D, but when the game just came out, they were still disgusting in my opinion. The only time they seemed okay was during battles when you people "grew."
The graphics may not have been perfect, but they were definitely a step up and something new. Aside from the blocky characters, the environments these characters were placed in were rich in detail and vast in scope.

IV, V and VI's graphics were beautiful, even if they were only 16-bit. VII seemed dirty to me because everything was so dark and crude. Many of the environments were drawn backgrounds that were then programmed where you could and couldn't go.


You must also remember this was the first futuristic story and environment, adding to its innovation.

This seemed like blasphemy when it had first come out. Final Fantasy was always medieval with just a touch of the future. I did eventually grow out of this mind-set though, and fell in love with it. This game did allow me to enjoy VIII more.




The music isn't Uematsu's best in the series. IV, V and maybe even VI had arguably better scores.
I'm sorry, but when I hear the theme for Aeris, I can't help but feel a wave of emotions. Same for when I hear "One-Winged-Angel". But I guess this is a difference of opinion.

This does come down to personal opinion. But there are more people that like IV, V and VI's music better. People are saying it anyway.



The game is easy. That comes with almost all new games these days. Barely any time is required grinding, if any. There is no obligation to train all your characters either. You can basically pick three characters and stick with them.
Maybe for those 16 and over. But many who played it when they were 12, as many of us did, didn't have such an easy time.

So you're saying I'm just argueing with bunch of twelve-year-olds? :p
I'd like to see how much of this has less to do with age and more to do with inexperience. I've played VII since I was in the third grade. I never cared for it as much as I did II and III (SNES), so I never got actually determined enough to sit down and beat it till I was about 11 or 12.



It might be best for everyone to learn the definition of "overrated". Overrated doesn't mean "bad." It means that people say it's better than it actually is.
I don't think a game that did as much for RPGs as Final Fantasy VII did can be considered overrated. It was extremely innovative, and provided new elements the series had NEVER seen before.

Yes, it can be considered overrated. I just did it.

I guess what it comes down to is just respect for opinions. When I hear people say "I love VII, it roxxors various footwears of mine," I say "that's cool;" but when VII apologists hear me say "VII wasn't that great," then the world comes to a screeching halt.

[Carl the Llama]

It always seems to me people think that fan's like to speak in 1337 5p3/@c|-| and CAPS when to be perfectly honest I have never seen in my entire life -I challenge anyone to find someone speaking about FFVII in 1337 in the past 3 years-

Back to the point, Final Fantasy VII IS the biggest of all the Final Fantasy games, how do I know this you ask? well its quite simple:

Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VII: Snowboarding
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus
Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII
Before Crisis: Final Fantasy VII

?Mystery Game to be announced Aug 2-3rd?

Please someone tell me how many games moves ect. does Final Fantasy VI have? Final Fantasy IV? 2* thats how many. both the exact same game with some innovations (probly not enough to have a whole team make a complete new game for). Now I realise some of you may dissagree with me but no, Final Fantasy VII is the biggest of all of them within 3 days of its release in Japan it sold 2.3 million copies, in the weekend of its release in America it sold over 330k copies and as of 2005 it had sold world wide 9.8 million copies, for those of you that dont know there is only 1 game that has sold more copies on the Playstation and that is Gran Turismo.

Oh and for those of you wondering yes, Final Fantasy VII IS my favorite game of the series and possibly (depending on my frame of mind) the best game ever (along side Tales of Symphonia).

Most of which I agree with you Overdose but having a go at someone because they made a spelling error does seem a little pedantic, this is afterall a disscussion thread not a grammer contest.

*I may have got this figure wrong but meh.

[Yar]

Gran Turismo is overrated. :rolleyes2

[Carl the Llama]

I would have to dissagree with that cause I have nere heard any hype over GT lol... but thats another disscussion entirly.

[Karellen]

Its only true innovation was that it was the first fully 3D RPG.

I take it you aren't familiar with King's Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Field).

[Avarice-ness]

Its only true innovation was that it was the first fully 3D RPG.

I take it you aren't familiar with King's Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Field).
xD Omg I had that game.

And I think he means not first person RPG, either way your point still holds because really.. no matter what kind of RPG does it, it's only a matter of time until they all do it. Really it doesn't have to even be an RPG, if 3D is the new cool thing, other game types are going to do it.

[Jessweeee♪]

Personally I thought FFIV sucked, but hey, people liked it. A lot.


...but FFVII, I'll say I really liked! Not my favorite, but it's up there on my list of goodness somewhere. It is what it is and people will love or hate different aspects of it.

[Croyles]

Gran Turismo is overrated. :rolleyes2

Oh now youve gone and done it!!! Come here you "§§$&§)(%$)§

Gran Turismo rocks :p

[ReloadPsi]

Can we now impose a ban on discussing why FF7 is regarded as overrated, or why it's not? This thread can be likened to the bickering of schoolchildren. Like I said: gamers today are as bad as soccer/football fans have been for the better part of a century. It's so childish and pathetic.

[Jessweeee♪]

Your face is childish and pathetic.

[Wolf Kanno]

Its only true innovation was that it was the first fully 3D RPG.

I take it you aren't familiar with King's Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_Field).

Forgot about that game Lol!

Guess I can say it has no innovation now, except they were the first to do it well (strictly my opinion of course). The only thing the game did for the industry was allow us to get a hold of titles like Xenogears and Vagrant Story. Titles that may not have left Japan had VII not created a RPG fad.

[Overdose]

Pray allow me to ask: how so?
The reason people hate FF7 for being so popular is that because of its popularity its basically the only game in the series that gets attention with sequels, prequels, movies etc. This leads to jealously because their favorite games aren't receiving all these extra bonuses and attention. This causes people to shout, "FFVII sucks! Its so overrated! Why isn't --insert favorite game here-- given as much attention as FFVII!"

So, the popularity fuels jealousy, which causes anger. Ultimately leading to FFVII bashing.


Lots of FFs did that. In fact, pretty much all of them did that...
There's a different between minor changes and adding on to what has already been done, and changing something to be totally different.


I get the emotion too! But I also get emotion when 'Succession of Witches' plays, or 'To Zanarkand' or 'Symphonic Poem Hope' or 'You're not alone.' Each Final Fantasy I've played has music which cues the emotions. Personally, I find that FFIX does it the most for me, but they all definitely do it. And they were doing it before VII as well.
The music isn't why I said FFVII was innovative :). I mentioned it as just another reason that makes the game good.

Sure, the music doesn't make it better than the other games, but my point was that the music is probably equal to the other games and is far better than an average musical score for a videogame.


Well, I've always prefered the class system myself, so I dont see that system as being particularly great. I dont think it was really more innovative than VIII's battle system or XII's battle system anyway.
I don't think you understand the meaning of innovation. FF8 and FF12's battle systems were BASED ON and created BECAUSE of FF7 starting that TREND. That is what innovation means. So yes, it was innovative because it was the FIRST in the series to do that, and caused games afterwards to continue that same system.

This innovation, by being the first, showcases the influence FFVII had over the series.

-------------------------------


I'm glad you enjoyed it. However it seemed recycled to me. Empire A is doing bad things so Resistance Group B has to stop it. Then they added such things to make the story more complex and seem refreshing.
Everything is recycled to some degree. But I feel FF7 gets more flack than other FFs for having a "recyceled" storyline. When in reality, everything is recycled to some degree, if you look hard enough. It just so happens people tend to look harder at FF7. :rolleyes2

Also, I don't think any Final Fantasy has as much of a connection and back-story between the main character and the opponents. Also, the futuristic story and world is vastly different than the previous stories in the series. True innovation.


IV, V[B] and VI's graphics were beautiful, even if they were only 16-bit. VII seemed dirty to me because everything was so dark and crude. Many of the environments were drawn backgrounds that were then programmed where you could and couldn't go.
Not liking what the graphics showcased doesn't necessarily mean the graphics themselves were bad. For example, I may not like the way a Coach bag looks, but I can't deny its quality.

The dark and crude feel was what added to the world and ambiance of FF7. It was the first in the series to have a more realistic, modern world. With this innovation, comes a more dirty look and feel. The point was that the times in FF7 were hard, and I think the graphics and environment showcased and captivated that message perfectly.


This seemed like blasphemy when it had first come out. Final Fantasy was always medieval with just a touch of the future. I did eventually grow out of this mind-set though, and fell in love with it. This game did allow me to enjoy VIII more.
The point of the futuristic world was because the storylines were becoming too recycled and people were beginning to get bored. The series needed a new direction, and it got just that with FF7's innovation.


This does come down to personal opinion. But there are more people that like IV, V and VI's music better. People are saying it anyway.
I don't know if MORE people like the music from those FF's better. But I realize many people do.


So you're saying I'm just argueing with bunch of twelve-year-olds? :p
Nope, I'm just saying FF7, unlike many of the other games, has widespread appeal to all different age groups, which is also what led to its success.


Yes, it can be considered overrated. I just did it.
Well, I disagree. Obviously. :)

[Wolf Kanno]

Well, I've always prefered the class system myself, so I dont see that system as being particularly great. I dont think it was really more innovative than VIII's battle system or XII's battle system anyway.
I don't think you understand the meaning of innovation. FF8 and FF12's battle systems were BASED ON and created BECAUSE of FF7 starting that TREND. That is what innovation means. So yes, it was innovative because it was the FIRST in the series to do that, and caused games afterwards to continue that same system.

This innovation, by being the first, showcases the influence FFVII had over the series.

You forgot FFII and technically FFV as being the first games that offered highly customizable characters with no set jobs... The fact of the matter is, materia is just the job class system broken down more except with the equipment and setup being character specific. Its an expansion on what came before it (just like everything in the game) so giving it the title of innovation is wrong. ;)

[Karellen]

The only real way I would consider FFVII innovative is the manner in which it used FMVs. I can't think of a game before VII that managed to connect gameplay with FMVs any where near as successfully. The actual quality of the FMVs is a little dubious but it would be hard to debate that the game utilized them very well.

Everything else was just an extention of concepts that had already been established in previous FF games, other JRPGs and a few early playstation games. FFVII's direction owes a lot to Resident Evil, for example.

[Egami]

FF8 and FF12's battle systems were BASED ON and created BECAUSE of FF7 starting that TREND.

Hmmm...not sure what trend you are referring to here. I will not say anything about FF8 since it has been a while since I last played it but having played FF12 recently and FF7 which I started again a couple of days ago, I see little connection between their battle systems.

FF7 carries the same random battle system as all previous FFs. It also has the same mechanics for battle: only one action may occur at a time, be it from the members of your party or from the enemies you face. Your party as well as the enemy are locked within a "box" and set in a specific spot and cannot move around freely. When you win a battle, the party does the same victory dance and you hear the same music that has been part of nearly all previous FFs.

The battle screen also has the same layout as the previous games, with the character details and the action menu on bottom in a wide frame that takes up about 30% of the screen and the message window where the name of spells and abilities appears centered on top. I will not get into detail over FF12, this is the FF7 forum after all, so I'll just say that FF12 changed all that.

The materia system of FF7 is also very different from the licence system of FF12.

A difference between FF7 and previous FFs was that your party consisted of only 3 characters. This was new for the series but having only 3 characters in your party had been done in previous games such as Chrono Trigger.

I guess, Overdose, that I sound like one of those FF7 "bashers", eh? Don't get me wrong. I love FF7 and it is my favorite game. I don't think FF7 is overrated, however, I think that some fans tend to exaggerate some things and fail to admit others and thus end up hyping the game so much that they ruin the experience for new comers. In so doing, they also attract a wave of hatred for the game, something that is more a backslash against the exaggerations of the fans than anything else.

[Lawr]

Well with all of it's milktastic spin-offs it's hard not to call it overrated.

[Egami]

Well with all of it's milktastic spin-offs it's hard not to call it overrated.

I don't see how one can call FF7 overrated based on the spin-offs. When you do that you are no longer judging the game itself.

Personally I feel that AC and DoC were unnecessary and I was not too impressed with them. Crisis Core in the other hand was good and as a prequel it contributes greatly to the main story of FF7.

[Lawr]

Well with all of it's milktastic spin-offs it's hard not to call it overrated.

I don't see how one can call FF7 overrated based on the spin-offs. When you do that you are no longer judging the game itself.

Personally I feel that AC and DoC were unnecessary and I was not too impressed with them. Crisis Core in the other hand was good and as a prequel it contributes greatly to the main story of FF7.

Well then according to you, Overdose's defense on why people think FF7 is overrated is obsolete then. Would it help you if I said Advent Children is overrated?

Most of the spin-offs are completely pointless wastes of time to me, especially Dirge Of Cerberus and Advent Children. I would be OK with just one or two, like the prequel, but so many on just one of the mainstream games is just sickening to me.

[The Crystal]

Well with all of it's milktastic spin-offs it's hard not to call it overrated.

That's not being overrated, that's being popular. Learn the difference.

[Lawr]

Well with all of it's milktastic spin-offs it's hard not to call it overrated.

That's not being overrated, that's being popular. Learn the difference.

Well, I don't think I've ever played a game and liked it so much that I wanted a Snowboarding version of it.

[Egami]

Would it help you if I said Advent Children is overrated?

Why would you consider it overrated? Because Advent Children itself is not as good as it is said to be or because it has a lot of spin-offs? If the former, then that is a genuine reason to think something is overrated, if the later, then your reason for thinking it is overrated is off-track.

[The Crystal]

Well, I don't think I've ever played a game and liked it so much that I wanted a Snowboarding version of it.

Another proof of its popularity.

[Lawr]

Would it help you if I said Advent Children is overrated?

Why would you consider it overrated? Because Advent Children itself is not as good as it is said to be or because it has a lot of spin-offs? If the former, then that is a genuine reason to think something is overrated, if the later, then your reason for thinking it is overrated is off-track.

I never really meant that, I was just trying to be a smart-a$$ because you said AC wasn't FFVII . . .




Well, I don't think I've ever played a game and liked it so much that I wanted a Snowboarding version of it.

Another proof of its popularity.

So, let me get this straight. Somebody played through Final Fantasy VII a so called 'innovative' RPG, and demanded that a snowboarding game themed off of it should be made?

Did you even play it? Even if it's popular doesn't mean it's not over-milked and overrated. Gran Turismo was popular and I played it but does that mean it deserves a flight simulator spin-off?


Whatever, I don't care if it's popular, I just think it's overrated, or at least I just don't think it needs all those spin-offs no matter how popular and seeing a lot of the fans putting the entire compilation on a pedestal next to the Bible is just fuel for the fire.

[Carl the Llama]

Im sorry did I miss the point of this thread or somthing, I could have sworn it was about the game Final Fantasy VII being overrated, and not about the x amount of sequels the game has and to be perfectly honest, I have never heard people championing Advent Children OR Dirge of Cerberus... iv never seen "zOMG d0C R4X3R5 MY 50X3R5!" or seen any fanboish comments about Advent Children.

The fact remains that Final Fantasy VII is the most popular game no matter how many people would wish it was otherwise and yes, you yourself may think that VII is overrated but then hey thats your perogative, I call anyone who thinks VII is not the most popular game of the series out there a fool.

Note: there is a difference between being popular and being overrated i.e. im not calling people who think it overrated a fool.

[Lawr]

Im sorry did I miss the point of this thread or somthing, I could have sworn it was about the game Final Fantasy VII being overrated, and not about the x amount of sequels the game has and to be perfectly honest, I have never heard people championing Advent Children OR Dirge of Cerberus... iv never seen "zOMG d0C R4X3R5 MY 50X3R5!" or seen any fanboish comments about Advent Children.

Actually, all of my friends IRL that play RPGs. And the last time I checked the spin-offs are still Final Fantasy VII. As long as they have that in their name, I'm going to believe just that. It's like Harry Potter to me.



The fact remains that Final Fantasy VII is the most popular game no matter how many people would wish it was otherwise and yes, you yourself may think that VII is overrated but then hey thats your perogative, I call anyone who thinks VII is not the most popular game of the series out there a fool.

I never said it wasn't popular, that was the whole base of my posts practically.



So, since I'm missing the point of the thread, I'll talk about FFVII. It's overated because 11 years later people still want to defend it like religion. You're argument is that you haven't seen people do this, but then again, I've never seen anyone say it's overrated on this forum ( Threads specifically on this topic are an exception ), other than Yamaneko, I think, or on YouTube, in the past three years.

I'm guessing this guy brought this topic out of some other place because he joined here not to long ago.

[Carl the Llama]

I've never seen anyone say it's overrated on this forum ( Threads specifically on this topic are an exception ), other than Yamaneko, I think, or on YouTube, in the past three years.

oh you havent? hows about this then:


Overrated: Final Fantasy VII
Underrated: [Final Fantasy I, Final Fantasy VII) U (Final Fantasy VII, Positive Infinity]


Why FFVII is the worst FF:

* It's highly overrated
* The plot just isn't that great. Lots of holes =\
* Not to be a graphics whore, but these graphics suck. FFVI has better design then this.


If I had to pick a worst it would be VII. The story line was really slow to me, it was all Shinra this Shinra that, it's like, when are you going to get to the damned point already???? The ending was really boring and I don't think that it ever could have left off to a sequal and I think that ppl who think so may have read into it to much. Plus that is NOT Nanaki, it's like a 1000 years later, Nanaki is probably dead....I think that was like a happy life goes on kinda thing. It was however for me one of the more difficlut FF's and by far the most boring....all the darn training are running around you have to do in order to survive gets really boring really quick. By far the most in any FF, except maybe 1.) Not only was the story line slow on it's own, but all the lving to keep up with the monsters strength made it even slower >sigh< :fd:



Oh man not another thread like this...
Whatever

For me it was close between ff2 and ff7.

ff2 is just sickening for its story and battle system
ff7 is
1.overrated.Sometimes some1's reason is:Seph rulez
The game rulezz!
2.humans look like somesort of humans made out of 2 parts(palmer,Barret heidegger:i once saw two pieces of palmer apart)
3.Battle system was nothing special
4.Story was good but characters were personality-less
ff7 had great misc though like chocobo.




Halo
Final Fantasy VII
Grand Theft Auto


Halo 1-2
Final Fantasy VII
uhhh, howz abote WoW while we are at it.

yeah, WoW.

ftl.


Halo Series
Final Fantasy VII


Final Fantasy VII. I fail to see the appeal in the game, or the spinoffs. I didn't like the music, and every single charactor annoyed me. The story was mediocre at best, though I suppose it was somewhat of a breakthrough as far as what a game could do length-wise. It was an all-around unenjoyable experience that I don't care to subject myself to again.

Kingdom Hearts. I've only played the first one, and while it was fun as hell, I don't think it lives up to the hooplah. The worlds were so limited, the story didn't much interest me... meh, meh, and more meh. The second looks more promising in terms of plot, so maybe I'll pick it up.


Halo series
Final Fantasy VII
Grand Theft Auto series



Grand Theft Auto
Mortal Kombat
Half Life 2

I see alot of people saying Halo, you know, I thought it wasnt that bad :/

Half Life 2 blew Halo out of the water!!!!!

GTA
FFVII
Halo
Star Wars: Battlefront 2

FFVII. It's a good game, but not worthy of all the praise that has been heaped upon it over the years. Since it was the first RPG to really hit it big in the West, a lot of people have an emotional attachment to the game, and are willing to overlook its faults. Were it released today, few would hail it as the greatest game ever, or even the greatest Final Fantasy title.


Final Fantasy VII, definitely.
Halo get's way too much love.
I'd say Resident Evil 4, but I haven't played it enough to really decide for sure.
I like Final Fantasy IX, really. It was better than a lot of Final Fantasy games.
Chrono Trigger hasn't aged well at all.
Kingdom Hearts. The camera made me hate the game. I just can't forgive it.



So many are listing FFVII :O_O: Poor VII, a lot dislike you these days. I still love you Cloud and company :lol:

This is only the third page of the most overrated game thread...

Additionally when this thread started Overdose only spoke about the game Final Fantasy VII not any of the spinoffs.

[MushroomZOMBIE]

Well, obviously, pretty much every thread goes OT. :P

[The Crystal]

So, let me get this straight. Somebody played through Final Fantasy VII a so called 'innovative' RPG, and demanded that a snowboarding game themed off of it should be made?

Did you even play it? Even if it's popular doesn't mean it's not over-milked and overrated. Gran Turismo was popular and I played it but does that mean it deserves a flight simulator spin-off?


Whatever, I don't care if it's popular, I just think it's overrated, or at least I just don't think it needs all those spin-offs no matter how popular and seeing a lot of the fans putting the entire compilation on a pedestal next to the Bible is just fuel for the fire.

Looking to your posts, it's clear you don't even know the meaning of "overrated". You are confusing it with "popularity".



And seriously guys... Most people today see the word "overrated" as something bad, and use it to insult what they don't like.
This is why so many people use it to describe FFVII, because they don't like it, OR they don't like the fanbase, and insult the game to piss them off. But in some cases, people just mistake "overrated" with "popular".
If you guys go to other forums and sites, you will see that there is A LOT of people bashing or underrating it, and a few who are actually overrating it.

The problem with FFVII, is that it was so overrated in the past few years, that it pissed a lot of people. And now those people are everywhere, bashing it everytime they can.

IMO the overrated past of FFVII, made the game be underrated today.
As stated before, hating FFVII and bashing it is the new "cool". Everyone is doing it.

[Egami]

As stated before, hating FFVII and bashing it is the new "cool". Everyone is doing that.

Right, and this probably done by the same people who were raving about it when it first came out. I see the hatred as a natural backlash against it's popularity.

I remember that I got the Playstation together with FFVII back in 97 when it came out. I loved it back then and still love it now.

[Roto13]

I saw one website make fun of how overrated Final Fantasy VII was by having a list of the top ten orange video game characters and putting Final Fantasy VII as number 1. It was awesome.

Eegra: Updates five times a week. Usually. : Feature: The 10 Orangest Videogame Characters of All Time (http://www.eegra.com/pages/show/title/20_07_2008_Feature__The_10_Orangest_Videogame_Characters_of_All_Time/)

I'd also like to add that the most annoying thing in the world is people who act like the only reason someone could have for hating Final Fantasy VII is so they can rebel against the waves of fanboys. No. I played it and I thought it was a mediocre game. Hype or no hype.

[Yar]

I'd also like to add that the most annoying thing in the world is people who act like the only reason someone could have for hating Final Fantasy VII is so they can rebel against the waves of fanboys. No. I played it and I thought it was a mediocre game. Hype or no hype.

Thank you!

I don't like the game because I thought it was nothing special.

I don't like many of its fans because I find them loud and annoying.

I don't dislike the game because I find its fans annoying, and I don't dislike the fans just because I dislike the game.

No, I'm not jealous of all your prequels and sequels and such that your favorite entry was given, either. I'll gladly keep my money. I personally don't feel that my favorite ones need spinoffs, because I think they can do their jobs alone.

[Rostum]

This thread hasn't been done before!

[Bolivar]

Oh really?

What about the millions of people who buy trash music then? (naming no names) Its a weak argument. Just because lots of people like it - doesnt mean its good.

Nobody picks up a Backstreet Boys CD 10 years later to appreciate the creative effort put into it. Britney Spears' debut album doesn't generate pages upon pages of in-depth analysis into every facet of the work. And credible magazines will never acknowledge "Bye Bye Bye" by N'Sync as one of the best songs of all time.

There's no way that a story using so many plot devices, that has such an exhausting amount of artwork (in pre-rendered backgrounds alone), that pushed the boundaries of the medium in so many ways, that inescapably changed its genre forever, that left such an astounding impact on the community, could be undeserving of the praise that it gets (especially) more than a decade after its release.

If it was, actually, a decent game that has been overrated due to the low standards of the masses (rabid fanboys), it would not have received virtually universal acknowledgment as "The Revolution" from the critics at the time. Hype is something that dies down fairly quickly. Not only has the game stood the test of the time, but almost any publication feature on Final Fantasy mentions the insatiable demand for its remake, it consistently ranks among the greatest and most influential games of all time (reader and critics polls), and its characters also consistently rank among the most memorable and cherished.

FFVII is held in superb regard, not only by the fans, and the critics, but by the developers of Final Fantasy franchise themselves. The developers most important to previous games in the franchise, especially the masterpiece that is FFVI (Sakaguchi, Kitase, Uematsu) all have put forth that they knew during development that they were creating a very special game that was going to not only change everything, but that would effectively stomp all of their previous works.FFVII Developer's Interview (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/40147.html)

Overdose - welcome to the forums, you gave a very good original post to one of the more discussed topics. The Crystal - as always your posts are insightful and increase awareness to those who read them.

Wolf Kanno - Smurf You, man. Smurf You. (j/p we both know it's all in good fun my friend).

[DMKA]

This thread should be stickied, seeing as it's been made ten billion times and will inevitably be made ten trillion more times.

[Egami]

I played it and I thought it was a mediocre game. Hype or no hype.

Fair enough :p

Would you please outline the reasons why you consider it a mediocre game? It would encourage discussion on this thread...what do you think?

[Egami]

I personally don't feel that my favorite ones need spinoffs, because I think they can do their jobs alone.


Ok, but I don't think that just because a game has spinoffs it means that the original game cannot stand alone. A spinoff is not necessarily a supplement to the original story, it can be an extension of it.

[Yar]

I played it and I thought it was a mediocre game. Hype or no hype.

Fair enough :p

Would you please outline the reasons why you consider it a mediocre game? It would encourage discussion on this thread...what do you think?

I'm going to try to put it as simply as I can, that way people can understand why people like Roto and I believe the game is mediocre.

It was nothing new to us who played Final Fantasy pre VII. The only thing that VII really brought to the series were the FMV cutscenes. Everything else was already in the series. This wasn't the first with ATB battles. This wasn't the first FF with an in depth story. This wasn't the first with in depth characters. This wasn't the first with great music.

People give the game too much credit. They say this game "revolutionized" the RPG genre. It did not. It simply brought more players to the genre.

[Dragonsoul]

Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VII: Snowboarding
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus
Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII
Before Crisis: Final Fantasy VII

Updated list...

Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VII: Before Crisis
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus
Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core
Final Fantasy VII: Snowboarding
Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus: Lost Episode
Final Fantasy VII: Last Order
Final Fantasy VII: Technical Demo For PS3
Final Fantasy VII: Maiden Who Travels The Planet
Final Fantasy VII: On The Way To A Smile

:)

[The Crystal]

Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VII: Snowboarding
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus
Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII
Before Crisis: Final Fantasy VII

Updated list...

Final Fantasy VII
Final Fantasy VII: Before Crisis
Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children
Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus
Final Fantasy VII: Crisis Core
Final Fantasy VII: Snowboarding
Final Fantasy VII: Dirge of Cerberus: Lost Episode
Final Fantasy VII: Last Order
Final Fantasy VII: Technical Demo For PS3
Final Fantasy VII: Maiden Who Travels The Planet
Final Fantasy VII: On The Way To A Smile

:)

You forgot "Dirge of Cerberus Online".

[Momiji]

I'll say now that I fully agree with Sagensyg here, but since I'm already walking on eggshells here (because heaven forbid I have an opinion against yours)-- I don't like FFVII. I don't like the story. I don't like the characters. I don't like all of the countless plot holes. Most of all, I don't like the squealing fanbase that would pay full price for whatever FFVII-related game comes out. It's sickening to see that. Square-Enix knows that if the fans like it enough, they'll buy anything, no matter how much of a quick cash-in it is. I bet if Square-Enix had the FFVII logo printed on toilet paper, the fans would buy it.

Don't even reply to this, because I'm not coming back in here. Is FFVII overrated? Hell yes. If Square-Enix would stop with all of these knockoffs, they could get back to making more new, interesting games instead of milking a dead cow.

[Lawr]

I'm not coming back in here.

This is a good idea for me. I don't think anything I say is going to change anyone's mind and nothing anyone says is going to change mine. Well, enjoy FFVII however you like.

[The Crystal]

Sagensyg and Momiji, we aren't talking about opinions here.
You two are saying that FFVII is overrated because of it's popularity(having many fans who want to buy and play the spin-offs). I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. "Popular" and "overrated" are not the same thing. And that's not an opinion, that's a fact.
Please, learn the definition of the words you are using.


And Bolivar, thankyou for the compliment.

[Momiji]

Sagensyg and Momiji, we aren't talking about opinions here.
You two are saying that FFVII is overrated because of it's popularity(having many fans who want to buy and play the spin-offs). I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. "Popular" and "overrated" are not the same thing. And that's not an opinion, that's a fact.
Please, learn the definition of the words you are using.


And Bolivar, thankyou for the compliment.

I take back what I said about not coming back.

I do know the definition of the words I'm using. I hated the story of FFVII, I hated the characters, I hated the plot holes. The only redeeming part of the series at all is the music, which is the only reason whatsoever that I finished the game. Now tell me this: if the story is bad, if the characters suck, if the story has too many gaps in it to be completed, and yet people still love it, does that not describe something that is completely overrated? Furthermore, if we're not talking about opinions, how the hell are you supposed to discuss if the game is overrated or not?

Now before you start insulting my intelligence again with condescending remarks, I would ask that you read what I said again:


I'll say now that I fully agree with Sagensyg here, but since I'm already walking on eggshells here (because heaven forbid I have an opinion against yours)-- I don't like FFVII. I don't like the story. I don't like the characters. I don't like all of the countless plot holes. Most of all, I don't like the squealing fanbase that would pay full price for whatever FFVII-related game comes out. It's sickening to see that. Square-Enix knows that if the fans like it enough, they'll buy anything, no matter how much of a quick cash-in it is. I bet if Square-Enix had the FFVII logo printed on toilet paper, the fans would buy it.

Don't even reply to this, because I'm not coming back in here. Is FFVII overrated? Hell yes. If Square-Enix would stop with all of these knockoffs, they could get back to making more new, interesting games instead of milking a dead cow.

I never said it was overrated BECAUSE it was popular. I said I find it irritating that such an unimpressive game is so popular. The relevance to being overrated ended after I mentioned the fanbase-- which I didn't say I hated because they make the game popular, it's that they're so damn annoying and would blindly buy any piece of junk that has anything to do with FFVII. And since they would do such things makes the game overrated-- because something is overrated if it gets way too much attention even when it is extremely unimpressive. So in that case, popularity does have to do with beng overrated, because if it wasn't popular, it wouldn't be overrated.

Now I'm done. Like Sagensyg also said, you can't change my opinions, and I can't change yours. But I won't let you insult my intelligence just because you failed to read what I said in depth. It seems that you skipped everything I said and focused only on the words "FFVII", "Popular", and "Overrated".

[The Crystal]

I take back what I said about not coming back.

I do know the definition of the words I'm using. I hated the story of FFVII, I hated the characters, I hated the plot holes. The only redeeming part of the series at all is the music, which is the only reason whatsoever that I finished the game. Now tell me this: if the story is bad, if the characters suck, if the story has too many gaps in it to be completed, and yet people still love it, does that not describe something that is completely overrated? Furthermore, if we're not talking about opinions, how the hell are you supposed to discuss if the game is overrated or not?

Now before you start insulting my intelligence again with condescending remarks, I would ask that you read what I said again:


I'll say now that I fully agree with Sagensyg here, but since I'm already walking on eggshells here (because heaven forbid I have an opinion against yours)-- I don't like FFVII. I don't like the story. I don't like the characters. I don't like all of the countless plot holes. Most of all, I don't like the squealing fanbase that would pay full price for whatever FFVII-related game comes out. It's sickening to see that. Square-Enix knows that if the fans like it enough, they'll buy anything, no matter how much of a quick cash-in it is. I bet if Square-Enix had the FFVII logo printed on toilet paper, the fans would buy it.

Don't even reply to this, because I'm not coming back in here. Is FFVII overrated? Hell yes. If Square-Enix would stop with all of these knockoffs, they could get back to making more new, interesting games instead of milking a dead cow.

I never said it was overrated BECAUSE it was popular. I said I find it irritating that such an unimpressive game is so popular. The relevance to being overrated ended after I mentioned the fanbase-- which I didn't say I hated because they make the game popular, it's that they're so damn annoying and would blindly buy any piece of junk that has anything to do with FFVII. And since they would do such things makes the game overrated-- because something is overrated if it gets way too much attention even when it is extremely unimpressive. So in that case, popularity does have to do with beng overrated, because if it wasn't popular, it wouldn't be overrated.

Now I'm done. Like Sagensyg also said, you can't change my opinions, and I can't change yours. But I won't let you insult my intelligence just because you failed to read what I said in depth. It seems that you skipped everything I said and focused only on the words "FFVII", "Popular", and "Overrated".

Ah, I understand now. So, because you think FFVII is a crap game, that means it is. And it shouln't be popular for that reason(for being crap, in your opinion).

LOL

Another fact for you dude: Your opinion is not a fact. Just becauce YOU think FFVII is a crap game, doesn't mean it is.
And it's obvious you are blinded by hate. You are even labeling and insulting the entire FFVII-fanbase, just because of some fanboys.

It's obvious now, that you are a waste of time. Bye.

[Roto13]

Your opinion is not a fact.

No http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif.


Just becauce YOU think FFVII is a crap game, doesn't mean it is.

Here's something even more obvious. Just because YOU think it's not crap, that doesn't mean it isn't.

It's so annoying when people act like every post needs to come with a disclaimer attached. If you're just going to go "lol ur opinyun isnt fakt lol" at everyone who disagrees with you, there's not much of a point in discussing anything with you, is there?

[The Crystal]

No :skull::skull::skull::skull:.

Here's something even more obvious. Just because YOU think it's not crap, that doesn't mean it isn't.

It's so annoying when people act like every post needs to come with a disclaimer attached. If you're just going to go "lol ur opinyun isnt fakt lol" at everyone who disagrees with you, there's not much of a point in discussing anything with you, is there?

Did I state as a fact, that FFVII is not a crap game? Nope.
Being crap or not, is subjective to each person. It's not a fact, and I NEVER presented my opinion about it, as a fact.
But here is a real fact: FFVII's popularity is NOT proof of it being overrated. "Popularity" and "being overrated" are different things.

[Momiji]

I take back what I said about not coming back.

I do know the definition of the words I'm using. I hated the story of FFVII, I hated the characters, I hated the plot holes. The only redeeming part of the series at all is the music, which is the only reason whatsoever that I finished the game. Now tell me this: if the story is bad, if the characters suck, if the story has too many gaps in it to be completed, and yet people still love it, does that not describe something that is completely overrated? Furthermore, if we're not talking about opinions, how the hell are you supposed to discuss if the game is overrated or not?

Now before you start insulting my intelligence again with condescending remarks, I would ask that you read what I said again:


I'll say now that I fully agree with Sagensyg here, but since I'm already walking on eggshells here (because heaven forbid I have an opinion against yours)-- I don't like FFVII. I don't like the story. I don't like the characters. I don't like all of the countless plot holes. Most of all, I don't like the squealing fanbase that would pay full price for whatever FFVII-related game comes out. It's sickening to see that. Square-Enix knows that if the fans like it enough, they'll buy anything, no matter how much of a quick cash-in it is. I bet if Square-Enix had the FFVII logo printed on toilet paper, the fans would buy it.

Don't even reply to this, because I'm not coming back in here. Is FFVII overrated? Hell yes. If Square-Enix would stop with all of these knockoffs, they could get back to making more new, interesting games instead of milking a dead cow.

I never said it was overrated BECAUSE it was popular. I said I find it irritating that such an unimpressive game is so popular. The relevance to being overrated ended after I mentioned the fanbase-- which I didn't say I hated because they make the game popular, it's that they're so damn annoying and would blindly buy any piece of junk that has anything to do with FFVII. And since they would do such things makes the game overrated-- because something is overrated if it gets way too much attention even when it is extremely unimpressive. So in that case, popularity does have to do with beng overrated, because if it wasn't popular, it wouldn't be overrated.

Now I'm done. Like Sagensyg also said, you can't change my opinions, and I can't change yours. But I won't let you insult my intelligence just because you failed to read what I said in depth. It seems that you skipped everything I said and focused only on the words "FFVII", "Popular", and "Overrated".

Ah, I understand now. So, because you think FFVII is a crap game, that means it is. And it shouln't be popular for that reason(for being crap, in your opinion).

LOL

Another fact for you dude: Your opinion is not a fact. Just becauce YOU think FFVII is a crap game, doesn't mean it is.
And it's obvious you are blinded by hate. You are even insulting the entire FFVII-fanbase.

It's obvious now, that you are a waste of time. Bye.

*facepalm*

Here we go again.

Shall I define 'overrated' for you?


o·ver·rate [oh-ver-reyt]
–verb (used with object), -rat·ed, -rat·ing.
to rate or appraise too highly; overestimate

If you cannot use opinions in a thread where an opinion is being asked, the point of the thread itself is gone. It wouldn't be a discussion if everyone had to agree. The question at hand was 'Is FFVII Overrated?' not 'FFVII is not overrated. Agree with me'. This happens all of the time. I state my opinion on the game and I'm always on the receiving end of the tongue-lashing because I just don't agree. I don't give a rat's ass if you think the game is overrated or not. I didn't question your opinion, so you shouldn't question mine. I said my part and you just had to attack me for it. Do I think FFVII is overrated? YES. Do you have to agree with me? NO. Am I allowed to say what I want regarding the subject? YES. Should that impact your opinion? NO. Am I allowed to disagree with you? APPARENTLY NOT.

Do I think FFVII is a crap game? Yeah, pretty much. Is my opinion fact? No, it's an opinion and I'm entitled to have mine as much as you're entitled to yours. It's clear that you're blinded by always having to be right and that you are the epitome of why I hate the fanbase so much. It always has to be 'agree or you're an idiot'. Perhaps I am blinded by hate. I wouldn't be if I was allowed to voice my damn opinion without always being the subject of a bitchfest afterward.

Bye.

[The Crystal]

I take back what I said about not coming back.

I do know the definition of the words I'm using. I hated the story of FFVII, I hated the characters, I hated the plot holes. The only redeeming part of the series at all is the music, which is the only reason whatsoever that I finished the game. Now tell me this: if the story is bad, if the characters suck, if the story has too many gaps in it to be completed, and yet people still love it, does that not describe something that is completely overrated? Furthermore, if we're not talking about opinions, how the hell are you supposed to discuss if the game is overrated or not?

Now before you start insulting my intelligence again with condescending remarks, I would ask that you read what I said again:


I'll say now that I fully agree with Sagensyg here, but since I'm already walking on eggshells here (because heaven forbid I have an opinion against yours)-- I don't like FFVII. I don't like the story. I don't like the characters. I don't like all of the countless plot holes. Most of all, I don't like the squealing fanbase that would pay full price for whatever FFVII-related game comes out. It's sickening to see that. Square-Enix knows that if the fans like it enough, they'll buy anything, no matter how much of a quick cash-in it is. I bet if Square-Enix had the FFVII logo printed on toilet paper, the fans would buy it.

Don't even reply to this, because I'm not coming back in here. Is FFVII overrated? Hell yes. If Square-Enix would stop with all of these knockoffs, they could get back to making more new, interesting games instead of milking a dead cow.

I never said it was overrated BECAUSE it was popular. I said I find it irritating that such an unimpressive game is so popular. The relevance to being overrated ended after I mentioned the fanbase-- which I didn't say I hated because they make the game popular, it's that they're so damn annoying and would blindly buy any piece of junk that has anything to do with FFVII. And since they would do such things makes the game overrated-- because something is overrated if it gets way too much attention even when it is extremely unimpressive. So in that case, popularity does have to do with beng overrated, because if it wasn't popular, it wouldn't be overrated.

Now I'm done. Like Sagensyg also said, you can't change my opinions, and I can't change yours. But I won't let you insult my intelligence just because you failed to read what I said in depth. It seems that you skipped everything I said and focused only on the words "FFVII", "Popular", and "Overrated".

Ah, I understand now. So, because you think FFVII is a crap game, that means it is. And it shouln't be popular for that reason(for being crap, in your opinion).

LOL

Another fact for you dude: Your opinion is not a fact. Just becauce YOU think FFVII is a crap game, doesn't mean it is.
And it's obvious you are blinded by hate. You are even insulting the entire FFVII-fanbase.

It's obvious now, that you are a waste of time. Bye.

*facepalm*

Here we go again.

Shall I define 'overrated' for you?


o·ver·rate [oh-ver-reyt]
–verb (used with object), -rat·ed, -rat·ing.
to rate or appraise too highly; overestimate

If you cannot use opinions in a thread where an opinion is being asked, the point of the thread itself is gone. It wouldn't be a discussion if everyone had to agree. The question at hand was 'Is FFVII Overrated?' not 'FFVII is not overrated. Agree with me'. This happens all of the time. I state my opinion on the game and I'm always on the receiving end of the tongue-lashing because I just don't agree. I don't give a rat's ass if you think the game is overrated or not. I didn't question your opinion, so you shouldn't question mine. I said my part and you just had to attack me for it. Do I think FFVII is overrated? YES. Do you have to agree with me? NO. Am I allowed to say what I want regarding the subject? YES. Should that impact your opinion? NO. Am I allowed to disagree with you? APPARENTLY NOT.

Do I think FFVII is a crap game? Yeah, pretty much. Is my opinion fact? No, it's an opinion and I'm entitled to have mine as much as you're entitled to yours. It's clear that you're blinded by always having to be right and that you are the epitome of why I hate the fanbase so much. It always has to be 'agree or you're an idiot'. Perhaps I am blinded by hate. I wouldn't be if I was allowed to voice my damn opinion without always being the subject of a bitchfest afterward.

Bye.

Ahhhh... So, because it's your opinion, no one can argue against it, right? Well... In my opinion, the planet Earth is a giant cookie. Don't argue with me, because I have the right to state my opinion.

.............

Opinions have to be based on facts. If you have your facts wrong, your opinion IS wrong(yes, opinions can be wrong too).

By your argument, the success of the game = it being overrated. Sorry but that's wrong. Go find the definition of the word "overrated" AND "popular"/"successful" before using them. They don't have the same meaning, and that's a fact.

[Jessweeee♪]

Okay so we're all in agreement that everyone's opinions mean nothing so we can just disregard anything that anyone says :</>D? Okie dokie :spin:

[The Crystal]

Okay so we're all in agreement that everyone's opinions mean nothing so we can just disregard anything that anyone says :</>D? Okie dokie :spin:

Opinions that contradict the known facts are nothing. Momiji's opinion contradicts the dictionary.
"Popular" or "successful" =/= "overrated".

[Egami]

It was nothing new to us who played Final Fantasy pre VII. The only thing that VII really brought to the series were the FMV cutscenes. Everything else was already in the series.

Well, I had been playing FF for a few years before VII was released and had played other RPGs such as Breath of Fire, Chrono Trigger and Lufia and I did find VII to be something new and refreshing.

As a whole, VII takes a new approach to the world of an RPG. It got rid of the castles, kingdoms, kings, knights and princes which had become the trademark if not the cliché of the genre.

I also think that character development rose to a new level with this game as the characters seem more deep and able to convey a wider set of emotions than in previous games. It is not just because of the better graphics, it is their behavior, how they move, react, speak and change during the game. Each character has a strongly marked personality.

The story itself is far deeper and complex than any of the previous games and travels into a new territory in exploring the physchological aspects of the characters.

The materia system was quite innovative in my opinion. Granted, it was not revolutionary, but it was great nonetheless and it gave grater freedom to customize your characters than previous games. It seems to be a fusion of sorts of the systems of V and VI, so in that I would say it is evolutionary. Something I like about the materia system is how strongly tied to the story and the rest of the game it is. It is not some isolated thing that is relevant only in battles; it is rooted in the story and directly derived from it.

The whole chocobos breeding idea was great and it was something new as well. It also paved the way for all the future chocobo related mini games that we find in the others.

There are also many small but great things that were new which I think are often overlooked but are what contribute in making the game great. I mean, I never did something in an RPG like riding a bike to escape some place while soldiers chase me and I have to take them down with a sword, or something like chasing a submarine while firing torpedoes at it to sink it, or like climbing a really cold mountain while keeping an eye on my body temperature, or something like the strategy game battle at Forth Condor in a previous FF. I could name more of these small things but all in all, I felt that the game packages so much variety into it and so well, it is like if you do a bit of everything in it. All this is also distributed across the story and the game also has an incredible pacing never allowing a dull moment to creep in.

Sometimes people try to look for some major revolutionary thing in the game and end up disillusioned when they don’t find it and miss this sort of stuff.



This wasn't the first with ATB battles. This wasn't the first FF with an in depth story. This wasn't the first with in depth characters. This wasn't the first with great music.

Nor were FFV and FFVI for that matter (ATB was introduced in IV). Does that make them mediocre? By that standard nearly every installment on the series is mediocre, don’t you think? Just because a game was not the first on something it doesn’t mean that it is mediocre.



People give the game too much credit. They say this game "revolutionized" the RPG genre. It did not. It simply brought more players to the genre.

I agree that the game did not “revolutionize” the RPG genre. It is true, it didn’t and I think that this is one of the things that fans of the game exaggerate. But that doesn’t make it a mediocre game nor does it means that it does not deserve all the praise it gets. The changes VII brought about were not radical for the most part, which is what it would do if it were to revolutionize the RPG genre. The changes were evolutionary, it took and improved upon what came before it and added some new things as well. While it didn’t revolutionize the genre, it did take things to a new level and raised the bar and set the standard for future RPGs.

That said why did VII bring more players to the genre? Obviously it did something right. I don’t think we can just chalk it up to good or excessive marketing. Previous Squaresoft games like Chrono Trigger and Secret of Evermore had great marketing campaigns with print and TV ads. I remember seeing plenty of SoE ads in magazines and the commercial for CT being played a lot on channels like MTV. I have read some blame it on the fact that the strategy guide was being sold as well, but strategy guides were available for previous games, so that cannot be the reason (how can it be, really?).

I think it did something right and that captivated the imagination of people back then and still does so today. There are even ten year old fan sites of the game around, which are still active and the game still continues to keep the interest of old fans and attracts new ones to it and its related games and movie. I think that only something that is "special" is able to do that.



I'll say now that I fully agree with Sagensyg here, but since I'm already walking on eggshells here (because heaven forbid I have an opinion against yours)-- I don't like FFVII. I don't like the story. I don't like the characters. I don't like all of the countless plot holes.

No issue with you disliking the game. If you didn’t like it, then you didn’t, not much can be done about that other than discuss your reasons for disliking it and thinking it is overrated. But you said you will not post again here, so I guess that is not possible.


Egami

[Roto13]

Opinions have to be based on facts.

No. Opinions have to be based on personal preference, not facts.


Well... In my opinion, the planet Earth is a giant cookie. Don't argue with me, because I have the right to state my opinion.

While I wouldn't be surprised if you actually believed this, this kind of thing isn't a matter of opinion.

[Momiji]

Ahhhh... So, because it's your opinion, no one can argue against it, right? Well... In my opinion, the planet Earth is a giant cookie. Don't argue with me, because I have the right to state my opinion.

.............

Opinions have to be based on facts. If you have your facts wrong, your opinion IS wrong(yes, opinions can be wrong too).

By your argument, the success of the game = it being overrated. Sorry but that's wrong. Go find the definition of the word "overrated" AND "popular"/"successful" before using them. They don't have the same meaning, and that's a fact.

Oh, that's right! My opinion is wrong because your opinion apparently trumps mine, and then you compare it to an overly obvious falsehood! Listen up, skippy-- a 'fact' is something known to be true and has proof to counter all question-- for example, water is wet--fact. If anyone questions it, throw the water on them. Saying that FFVII is good is an opinion, not a fact. You can't shove FFVII in my face and say it is good when I clearly say it is not. My opinion balances your opinion, because there is no way to prove that said game is good.

Furthermore, and for the last time-- I never contradicted myself. Something is overrated when it gets undeserved attention. I personally think that FFVII gets plenty of undeserved attention when I think it was a lousy game with excellent music. Now, the question in this fucking thread was 'do you think FFVII is overrated?' I say yes. Just because I stated my goddamn opinion does not make it fact, and it sure as hell doesn't make yours one either.

I have better things to do than argue with a vindictive megalomaniac who just can't accept the fact that some people happen to think for themselves and disagree with his opinion.

[Yar]

Ahhhh... So, because it's your opinion, no one can argue against it, right? Well... In my opinion, the planet Earth is a giant cookie. Don't argue with me, because I have the right to state my opinion.

Except that terrible example you just provided can be proven as wrong. The earth not a giant mother fucking cookie, and that statement is NOT an opinion.


Opinions have to be based on facts. If you have your facts wrong, your opinion IS wrong(yes, opinions can be wrong too).

By your argument, the success of the game = it being overrated. Sorry but that's wrong. Go find the definition of the word "overrated" AND "popular"/"successful" before using them. They don't have the same meaning, and that's a fact.

Momiji's opinion were based on facts. It was a fact, that he found the characters to be http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif. It was a fact, that he found the story to be http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif. It was a fact, that he found the plotholes to be http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif, and it was a fact, that he found the music to be redeeming.

Opinions cannot, I repeat, CANNOT be proven wrong. Even if a person doesn't have all the facts to formulate a level-headed opinion, his opinion on the matter still cannot be proven wrong. Because an opinion would be how he feels on the matter.

Now, to this overrated/popularity/success deal.

Overrated deals with how people are finding something to be better than it actually is.

Popularity would be how many people find something fun, exciting, to be the best, yada yada.

Success, in VII's case, would be how many units are sold/how much $$ can be earned.

As a counter-example to the "popularity=overrating," I'll stay in the FF franchise and go with X. X was insanely popular. Still is today. But I don't think it was ever overrated. In fact, people actually cared to criticize the game in a negative light in some of it's aspects.

People try to do that to VII, but its whiny fan base won't allow us to. When we ask VII's fans to back up their claims as to why they prefer VII, some give us a detailed explanation. Yet, most say "oh you're just a hater/you just can't bare to see VII more popular than your favorite entry/you're jealous because we get more spinoffs/you're just on the hate VII bandwagon/wah wah wah."

[Egami]

Heh, this seems to be getting quite hot :)

Calm down guys...it is no use getting worked up over this..:cool:

[The Crystal]

Oh, that's right! My opinion is wrong because your opinion apparently trumps mine, and then you compare it to an overly obvious falsehood! Listen up, skippy-- a 'fact' is something known to be true and has proof to counter all question-- for example, water is wet--fact. If anyone questions it, throw the water on them. Saying that FFVII is good is an opinion, not a fact. You can't shove FFVII in my face and say it is good when I clearly say it is not. My opinion balances your opinion, because there is no way to prove that said game is good.

I have better things to do than argue with a vindictive megalomaniac who just can't accept the fact that some people happen to think for themselves and disagree with his opinion.

Oh my god! Are you even paying attention to what I'm talking about?!
I don't care if you dislike the game or not. It's your right to have an opnion about it.
BUT saying that it's overrated because of it's success is wrong, by the simple fact that success =/= overrated. Stop arguing with me, and go look on the damn dictionary!

[Momiji]

Furthermore, and for the last time-- I never contradicted myself. Something is overrated when it gets undeserved attention. I personally think that FFVII gets plenty of undeserved attention when I think it was a lousy game with excellent music. Now, the question in this smurfing thread was 'do you think FFVII is overrated?' I say yes. Just because I stated my goddamn opinion does not make it fact, and it sure as hell doesn't make yours one either.

[Ouch!]

Oh, that's right! My opinion is wrong because your opinion apparently trumps mine, and then you compare it to an overly obvious falsehood! Listen up, skippy-- a 'fact' is something known to be true and has proof to counter all question-- for example, water is wet--fact. If anyone questions it, throw the water on them. Saying that FFVII is good is an opinion, not a fact. You can't shove FFVII in my face and say it is good when I clearly say it is not. My opinion balances your opinion, because there is no way to prove that said game is good.

I have better things to do than argue with a vindictive megalomaniac who just can't accept the fact that some people happen to think for themselves and disagree with his opinion.

Oh my god! Are you even paying attention to what I'm talking about?!
I don't care if you dislike the game or not. It's your right to have an opnion about it.
BUT saying that it's overrated because of it's success is wrong, by the simple fact that success =/= overrated. Stop arguing with me, and go look on the damn dictionary!
I just can't resist. As Momiji has attempted to explain, for something to be overrated, it must be popular. There's no room to argue this; if you attempt to, it will only show your inability to understand the English language. Popularity is necessary to deem something overrated; similarly, unpopularity is necessary to deem something underrated.

However, popularity is only half of what makes something overrated. It is the more objective half (I say "more objective" because how popular something must be before one can appropriately define it as overrated is a rather subjective and sometimes arbitrary value) of the definition. To call something overrated is an opinion and therefore requires a subjective analysis. In this case, Momiji believes that Final Fantasy VII is a bad game. Let's examine this closely, step-by-step, since you seem to be ignoring a majority of the argument.

1. Final Fantasy VII is a popular game.
2. Momiji believes that Final Fantasy VII is a bad game and is undeserving of said popularity.
3. Therefore, Momiji believes Final Fantasy VII is overrated.

The Crystal, there is no more to this. You argue that popularity does not equate to overrated. This is true. However, popularity is a necessary part of being overrated. If someone thinks a popular game, movie, song, painting, cake recipe, what-have-you is bad, then he is also entitled to believe that it is overrated. Whether or not you disagree with this is completely irrelevant to Momiji's opinion.

As Momiji has said, this thread was asking an opinion. You do not think that Final Fantasy VII is overrated because your opinion differs from Momiji's on point two. You think FFVII is a good game. Therefore, you think it is deserving of its popularity. This, however, does not make Momiji wrong, nor does it make you right. Overrated is an opinion. Momiji is not trying to say that "FFVII is overrated and everyone who thinks otherwise is wrong." He's stating his opinion, which just happens to be contradictory to yours.

Your counterarguments are feeble and misguided, so stop trying before you embarrass yourself further.

And a little bit tossed in to stay strictly on topic: I think Final Fantasy is a good addition to the franchise. I believe it is overrated because I do not think it is deserving of the immense popularity it receives. It's good, but it's not that good.

[edczxcvbnm]

And Vincents coffin is made of metal!!11!

[Wolf Kanno]

Wolf Kanno - Smurf You, man. Smurf You. (j/p we both know it's all in good fun my friend).

Lol! :p Seriously, after our debate last time I'm not in the mood to go into real depth about this with you. You and I both know it would be impossible to convince the other one way or another on this topic.

In regards to the current debate, though I would argue that part of the criteria for being considered "overrated" would have to be its popular, I would say its a criteria not a reason why it is. Overrated means to be in conflict with the popular opinion. Yet at the same time, it comes down to personal opinion. I feel FFVII is overrated, I believe its a great game but I believe its flawed enough not to earn it the "greatest RPG of all time" award.

I feel both sides of the conflict need to understand that VII is a solid enough game to make it popular but has enough flaws to understand that people may dislike it. I like VII but I would be lying if I said it was a perfect game. I feel both sides need to understand this in order to minimize conflict. Yes there are pain in the ass fans on both sides of the argument who will mouth off about the debate but overall, I feel it comes down to opinion. A game can be both "perfect" and "overrated" at the same time everyone just needs to recognize that it comes down to personal opinion whether you fall into one camp or the other and stop this pointless argument.

At least use more valid arguments. Haters need to start pointing out specifics in the game as to why its not perfect; like the logic errors involving Cid joining your party, or the fact that the game offers no valid reason for Tifa to keep the truth about Nibelheim from Cloud. Fanboys, explain how the use of pre-rendered cutscenes allowed greater immersion into pivotal story points or the fact that Cloud's past is both original and never been seriously attempted since.

I don't want to hear anymore of this:

Haters: FF7 is a mediocre game with bad characters and awful gameplay. Its only popular cause its fans are obnoxious and never played any real RPGs!

Fanboys: You're just jealous cause your game isn't popular and you hate it cause its better than your game cause statistics don't lie.

NEWSFLASH!!!: In order for this debate not to go into circles anymore than it has, try to make more valid points that don't seem to be used very often. Haters: Be specific and point out its flaws within the game. Yes the fanbase is obnoxious and the game has flaws but be smurfing specific if you want to have any true leverage in your arguments. Fanboys: Stop circling back to it being popular and its all based on jealousy, point out why its the best and how it changed the world. Don't use sales figures as a crutch. 50 Cents game sold extremely well and most people consider it the worst game of all time. You also need to factor in that just because a gamer owns it doesn't mean they like it. Finally, don't use websites and gaming magazines as proof of value. XII is revered by critics as one of the best installments in the series yet its reviled by most of the FF fanbase. In the end, critics don't speak for the majority.

Basically, lets try to bring this back up as a valid debate about the integrity of the original game and not the same old http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif these threads always devolve into. This will probably be my last post in this thread unless someone wants to make a valid point. :mog:

[ljkkjlcm9]

Interesting argument...
All I hear is people who don't like it, saying it's overrated
And people who do like it, saying it isn't overrated.

I love the game, I enjoy all the spinoff's I've played... but I still think it's overrated. I think Zelda Ocarina of Time is overrated. I think Mario Galaxy is overrated. I think most games that become widely popular are overrated. And many games that are just as good, are underrated.

For example, I enjoyed each and every one of those games. But I enjoyed The World Ends With You far more. I found it truly amazing and original. I think it is underrated.

Basically, it's all about what gets the spotlight. Many games that get huge spotlight, don't necessarily deserve it. Many games that get no spotlight, deserve it. Chrono Trigger wasn't huge until awhile after it's release. So no, I don't find that game overrated. Overrated games if you ask me, are games that get huge ratings and people are told it's amazing, so because of this tons of people play it.

THE JACKEL

[Cleric]

I think what people also need to understand is that just because something can be overrated doesn't mean it's bad. I def. agree with Kanno. Some people are gonna like certain things, and others are not. The End

[Kenshin IV]

Final Fantasy fanboys and girls, never quit with your stupidities.

It is far too entertaining.

[PuPu]

All FFs have received criticism. People will probably say they hate them or think that they are overrated for their own reasons. There are FFs with much more criticism than FF7 that are almost equal in popularity. But it seems that FF7 is the game with the most fans who constantly respond to almost anybody who dare criticizes the game with "you only hate or think this game is overrated because it's popular!" I'm guessing that the fanboys probably say this because they think people criticize FF7 more than they should.

It just seems odd to me that FF7 fanboys feel the need to insult critics more than the fanboys of other FFs that have much more criticism and are almost equally popular. If I said "this game is overrated" to another FF, I would definitely not be accused as some "bandwagon hater" by the fanboys of that other FF as I would by the fanboys of FF7.

As for the game itself, it was not my favorite, but it was worth playing. The only thing that could really be considered revolutionary and innovative is the 3D graphics, since many of the other things like characters, storyline, etc. are significantly based on opinion. But better graphics are to be expected when the game goes to a new system.

[Kenshin IV]

It just seems odd to me that FF7 fanboys feel the need to insult critics more than the fanboys of other FFs that have much more criticism and are almost equally popular. If I said "this game is overrated" to another FF, I would definitely not be accused as some "bandwagon hater" by the fanboys of that other FF as I would by the fanboys of FF7.

You obviously have never tried it if you think that's at all true.

[PuPu]

Why do you think that it isn't true?

I have called FF7 overrated in the past, and I have said FF8 and FF10 were overrated as well in their respective forums and on General FF. There were fans who disagreed with my opinion on FF8 and FF10, but very few, if any at all, said that I was hating the game because it's popular. However, when I said it to FF7, many more FF7 fans responded by saying I hated the game because it was popular and that I was just a stupid fanboy of some other FF. This is something that I have seen with other people as well.

I'm sure there will always be some fans of other games who would accuse me of being a hater, but I just think that the FF7 fans would do it the most. If you think this is false, please tell me which other FF has fanboys who calls critics as haters the most.

[Egami]

I just think that the FF7 fans would do it the most. If you think this is false, please tell me which other FF has fanboys who calls critics as haters the most.

I don't know, I have never paid attention to that. Maybe FFVII has a more zealous fanbase than other FFs or perhaps because the fanbase is larger the chance of coming across with these sort of people is greater.

Anyway, I don't think this point is pertinent to the OP and think it is not a good idea for people to be throwing stones either way.

If you think the game is overrated, then please explain why you think so and let the discussion start.

I am not sure what happened to Overdose, been a couple of days since the last post, but I do not mind continuing what she started.

[Crossblades]

I personally think that FF VII is overrated, however that doesn't mean that I hate the game. I enjoyed it for what it is just like other FFs. It's not my favorite like VI, IV, etc. but still, I enjoyed playing this game. I just don't think its the greatest like some people make it out to be. Ya, the game has some flaws, but what game doesn't? The important thing is to enjoy the game without thinking about its flaws. In fact, as soon as I find my disc 3, I will be continuing my file(3rd playthrough overall)

[Kenshin IV]

Why do you think that it isn't true?

I have called FF7 overrated in the past, and I have said FF8 and FF10 were overrated as well in their respective forums and on General FF.

You're picking the wrong games with the wrong people. I'm guessing you don't have any friends who are true lovers of either of those games? If you want to try that experiment in a place like this I'd dare you to go into the Six section and even try to attempt to call that game overrated. And I don't mean in a cute "i can c why u lik it but i dont lol" way, I mean in a "omg this game sux omg itz overated u poeple suk 4 liking it FF7 4evr" kind of way. I'd be shocked if you got out alive.
And yes, that's usually the kind of harsh and nonsensical criticism a game like Seven usually receives from it's nay-sayers. Usually.

(Dear Final Fantasy VI,

Forgive me for I did not mean to single you out there when trying to make a much broader point. It's just we all know you're the darling of the Final Fantasy fanboy community and Heaven forbid anyone ever says anything negative about you. Hope we can still be sweet, sweet lovers.

Love Always,
Me.)

[Goldenboko]

In my opinion nearly every FFVI and beyond has been overrated. Minusing out FFIX (although FFIX does get some love at this forum :D).

I think FFVII is probably the most overrated, because it has some users that respond to any criticism like this (http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-vii/107297-how-much-did-final-fantasy-vii-revolutionise-series-5.html#post2250819), and because it has some fans that have never played any of the other games (while declaring it the best), or worse, fans who've never ever played FFVII.

I just don't understand how that last part happens. DON'T UNDERSTAND! But yeah, the level of overratedness goes, FFVII>FFVI>FFVIII>FFX imo.

[Yar]

Really? VIII? I would've put XII in there somewhere, maybe before VI. (OH-NOES! I've disagreed with you! Debate to the death! :greenie:)

People say VIII was bad all the time. I just don't how much of this is cause by VII fans who bought it wanting to play VII again.

[Goldenboko]

The amount of people who dislike it is outweighted by the amount that go, 'ZOMG SQUALLXRINOA SEXXORZ BEST COUPLE IN FF! COOLEST CAST EVAR ZOMG ZOMG!'

This is one of the few forums I've seen that the amount of people who disagree with those people outnumber the ones that do. More so overrated just because I feel that such a BAD love story is being hyped up. I mean if a good lovestory was reacted to like that, sure it'd be overrated but not by much. But the FFVIII lovestory is incredibly forced, and therefore incredibly overhyped.

As for FFXII, I want to give that more time to see what kind of fans it gets before I can really know where it fits in. (From what I've seen it actually gets a lot more 'ZOMG STAR WARS' or 'ZOMG BORING BRING BACK ATB' then praise)

EDIT: As for FFVII fans disliking it, from what I've seen there's also a lot of others that basically say, "HAHA! FUTURISTIC IS AWESOME! ALL OTHERS OTHER THEN FFVIII AND FFVII SUCK BECAUSE THEY AREN'T FUTURISTIC :bigsmile:".

[PuPu]

If you want to try that experiment in a place like this I'd dare you to go into the Six section and even try to attempt to call that game overrated. And I don't mean in a cute "i can c why u lik it but i dont lol" way, I mean in a "omg this game sux omg itz overated u poeple suk 4 liking it FF7 4evr" kind of way. I'd be shocked if you got out alive.
And yes, that's usually the kind of harsh and nonsensical criticism a game like Seven usually receives from it's nay-sayers. Usually.

The second way you said would get almost any FF fan angry because it just seems very unintelligent and very biased. What I'm saying is that I went to other FF sections and the FF7 section using first way, simply stating my opinion in a non-insulting way like many people do, but it still just seems to me that the FF7 section is the most compelled to call me some stupid fanboy.

But if you think that the FF6 section is the one that actually responds in the harshest way to criticism, can I ask if you tried posting a response in the FF6 section with the "i can c why u lik it but i dont lol" way?

[Yar]

The amount of people who dislike it is outweighted by the amount that go, 'ZOMG SQUALLXRINOA SEXXORZ BEST COUPLE IN FF! COOLEST CAST EVAR ZOMG ZOMG!'

This is one of the few forums I've seen that the amount of people who disagree with those people outnumber the ones that do. More so overrated just because I feel that such a BAD love story is being hyped up. I mean if a good lovestory was reacted to like that, sure it'd be overrated but not by much. But the FFVIII lovestory is incredibly forced, and therefore incredibly overhyped.

As for FFXII, I want to give that more time to see what kind of fans it gets before I can really know where it fits in. (From what I've seen it actually gets a lot more 'ZOMG STAR WARS' or 'ZOMG BORING BRING BACK ATB' then praise)

EDIT: As for FFVII fans disliking it, from what I've seen there's also a lot of others that basically say, "HAHA! FUTURISTIC IS AWESOME! ALL OTHERS OTHER THEN FFVIII AND FFVII SUCK BECAUSE THEY AREN'T FUTURISTIC ".

I just thought that XII was incredibly overrated, but by the media, not the fans. The reviewers and critics in the gaming media were like: "OH JESUS BALLS YOU MUST BUY THIS GAME IF YOU DON'T YOUR HEAD WILL EXPLODE INTO XII PIECES YAY NO RANDOM BATTLES AND YOUR CRAPPY BATTLE SYSTEM IS GONE." While much of the fan base was "meh, this isn't so great. It's just a pretty game to look at," or "this isn't really much of Final Fantasy" or "wow, a game that plays itself? I paid $60 for this?" (That last one is mine. A little of the second, too.)

[Goldenboko]

I consider the fanbase far more important to overrate something or not. The media is going to overrate any new Final Fantasy game, I mean it is their job.

[Kenshin IV]

The second way you said would get almost any FF fan angry because it just seems very unintelligent and very biased.

Yes, yes it would. Sort of my point.

And the media overrates everything because they're paid by publishers and add companies to give games those kinds of ratings. Obviously this really only applies to companies who can afford to do so (EA, Activision, those kind of companies).

And yes, it does happen. More than you probably realize.


In my opinion nearly every FFVI and beyond has been overrated. Minusing out FFIX (although FFIX does get some love at this forum :D).

So anything past the Sakaguchi era?

Hey, at least you're consistent.

[Egami]

Ya, the game has some flaws, but what game doesn't?

Indeed. I think that it is an exaggeration of many fans to deny that the game has its flaws. I would be lying if I told you that FF VII is absolutely perfect in every respect and that it has no flaws. It is not, and it has its shares of flaws. Something as simple as the spelling errors and poor translation that pop up many times comes to mind. Sephiroth having no gloves while he descends with his sword towards Aeris and then suddenly having gloves while he is pulling his sword from her; or the misalignment of the Sister Ray, by which if you draw a straight line from it to the north, it would miss the northern crater which it supposedly hit by a long shot; among other things.

While these are flaws, I think that these are just small things that don’t really take away from the greatness of the game. If you look for them, you will find them in many other games as well. Not that finding them in other games somehow justifies their presence. They are flaws and they shouldn’t be there or should have been done right in the first place.



In my opinion nearly every FFVI and beyond has been overrated.

I love VI, it is my second favorite FF. But as of late and unlike VII it does not seems to be aging too well. Not to go of topic but I'll just say that I think the game kicks off nice and goes on strong right up to and including the floating continent. But after that, in the world of ruin, I think it loses force and all sort of plot development seems to come to a halt. The game is amazing, I love it, but I think this issue is a weakness it has.

[ljkkjlcm9]

I just thought that XII was incredibly overrated, but by the media, not the fans. The reviewers and critics in the gaming media were like: "OH JESUS BALLS YOU MUST BUY THIS GAME IF YOU DON'T YOUR HEAD WILL EXPLODE INTO XII PIECES YAY NO RANDOM BATTLES AND YOUR CRAPPY BATTLE SYSTEM IS GONE." While much of the fan base was "meh, this isn't so great. It's just a pretty game to look at," or "this isn't really much of Final Fantasy" or "wow, a game that plays itself? I paid $60 for this?" (That last one is mine. A little of the second, too.)

XII overrated? Before I touched the game, I'd only heard bad things about it. I don't ever listen to critics reviews of a game. But basically any person I talked to about the game said it wasn't any good. However when I actually started playing it, I loved it. It was new, it was different, and it had a lot of customization. It's actually one of my favorite games for those reasons.

I base overrated purely on what is said about a game. The overwhelming majority of people hate FFVIII, or FFXII. Therefore, I don't see them as overrated. In fact, I find them highly underrated. FFIV, and FFVII receive a lot of praise from fans, and I find both to be highly overrated. FFVI is in there, but I'm not sure if it's overrated or not. It's teetering on the edge, but besides this forum, I've never seen many people really praise the game that much, while I hear tons of people praise VII and IV pretty much anywhere.

THE JACKEL

[Egami]

XII is an epic. I think it was a return to form in the series after VIII, IX and X, which while I enjoyed I felt fell far short to VII and VI.

[Goldenboko]

In my opinion nearly every FFVI and beyond has been overrated.

I love VI, it is my second favorite FF. But as of late and unlike VII it does not seems to be aging too well. Not to go of topic but I'll just say that I think the game kicks off nice and goes on strong right up to and including the floating continent. But after that, in the world of ruin, I think it loses force and all sort of plot development seems to come to a halt. The game is amazing, I love it, but I think this issue is a weakness it has.

I'm not saying that the game isn't good. I love that game, but there are many fans of it that over-rate it, just like FFVII and beyond. :O

[Bolivar]

Interesting argument...
All I hear is people who don't like it, saying it's overrated
And people who do like it, saying it isn't overrated.


You missed a whole lot then.

Egami brought up another great point, about how the little things in VII really helped make it as memorable as it has become. One thing that I briefly mentioned that far supercedes that of previous FF's was the use of artwork in the game. The Pre-rendered backgrounds are rarely mentioned in heated debates like these, but they went a long way into establishing the game's epic feel. FFI-FFV all used alot of the same sprites, and even though it did bring in some new ones, V still used alot of the same sprites and tiles (how old is that guy with the pointy hat?). Even though FFVI seems to have brought in an entirely new palette, it still used the same types of locations, the same types of styles and the same types of feel.

With FFVII, not only did you view more "futuristic" (stress quotations) scenes like Midgar and Junon, but you got to see the slums, plains and fields, ranches, mountains, coastlines and others. By completely abandoning pre-made tiles, Squaresoft was able to make much more impressive, interesting, and memorable locations. Going from sprites and tiles to models and CG was, actually, a pretty revolutionary move, and brought the art quality of locations, i think most would agree, definitively BETTER.

[The Crystal]

In regards to the current debate, though I would argue that part of the criteria for being considered "overrated" would have to be its popular, I would say its a criteria not a reason why it is.

And that's exactly what I was saying.

Guys, I agree that a game, to be overrated, needs to be popular first. But saying that a game is overrated only because it's popular("because it have many spin-offs", as Momiji said) is absurd.


I base overrated purely on what is said about a game.

Me too. This is why I think FFVII is not overrated. To every place I go, I only see people bashing it "because it's overrated".

[Yar]

Well I can assure you that I have never used "it's overrated" as an excuse as to why I dislike this game. I have always backed-up my claims with examples, such as my distaste for its story, graphics or unoriginality.

I see the "it's overrated" excuse as useful as VII fans' "you're just jealous of our success/popularity/spin-offs/etc."

[Egami]

Going from sprites and tiles to models and CG was, actually, a pretty revolutionary move, and brought the art quality of locations, i think most would agree, definitively BETTER.

Great observations Bolivar.

I would say that VII did bring a revolution to the series and the RPG genre with those things you pointed out. It did set a new standard for RPGs in particular and games in general, there was no RPG like it before it. However, I feel that what VII did in this area was an improvement over what a previous Playstation game had already begun to explore. There may be others but Resident Evil released in 96 had pre-rendered backgrounds quite similar to those of VII with 3D character models (see a video here (http://youtube.com/watch?v=hhSCunRsds4&feature=related)). I think it is safe to say that to a certain extent it paved the way for what was to come in VII.

[Yar]

VII wasn't the first game in 3D though.

If you're going to say that every game that was first in its genre to use 3D graphics "revolutionized" the genre, you might want to look deeper as to what it take to truly "revolutionize" a genre.

[Egami]

VII wasn't the first game in 3D though.

Of course, 3d Monster Maze (http://youtube.com/watch?v=nKvd0zPfBE4) released in 1981 was probably it. And Ultima Underworld (http://youtube.com/watch?v=TpuTbxkaZ94) released in 1992 was perhaps the first 3D game for the modern PC.


If you're going to say that every game that was first in its genre to use 3D graphics "revolutionized" the genre, you might want to look deeper as to what it take to truly "revolutionize" a genre.

I did not say that but I will say this much about 3D graphics: a jump from 2D graphics with sprites to a full 3D world with models is a radical change in the graphical presentation of a game and a radical change by definition is all that is needed to revolutionize something.

Such a change affects every single aspect of a game. Something as simple as the camera changing angles during a battle makes for a whole new experience quite different from the static view of previous games. The motion of the characters is also improved, allowing a wider range of expressions and emotions to be conveyed. Now models are not limited to four or five static poses in order to give different reactions, which are the same for every character but are given a nearly unlimited freedom of movement allowing for a greater distinction between the characters. This of course can enhance considerably the storytelling of a game. Things like monsters become much more interesting to fight, making battles more enjoyable overall, as they move and attack and have all sort of motion, unlike how it was previously that the monster was simply a static picture that blinked when it attacked.

I could go on but I think that a change from 2D to 3D, done well, such as FF VII did, is a radical change in the visual language of a game (the FF series in this case) and a radical change is a revolution.

[Yar]

Sorry if that message seemed directed at you. Just one of the pitfalls of our language. I was trying to use the plural, generalistic "you," though I probably could've used "one."

All I'm trying to say is that VII's 3D-ness wasn't as big an influence as some make it out to have been. 3D RPGs would've come about whether or not VII was 3D just by virtue of other [popular; going with popular games here] games such as Mario 64 or Zelda: OoT.

It was just games evolving. Each new generation brings about improvements. VII just used those improvements much like IV and X did, and XIII will.

[Momiji]

In regards to the current debate, though I would argue that part of the criteria for being considered "overrated" would have to be its popular, I would say its a criteria not a reason why it is.

And that's exactly what I was saying.

Guys, I agree that a game, to be overrated, needs to be popular first. But saying that a game is overrated only because it's popular("because it have many spin-offs", as Momiji said) is absurd.


I base overrated purely on what is said about a game.

Me too. This is why I think FFVII is not overrated. To every place I go, I only see people bashing it "because it's overrated".

You just don't know when to quit, do you?

I didn't say that. Don't make up false quotes and say I said it. I didn't say it was overrated because 'it have many spin-offs' as you fabricated, but because it got undeserved attention, which is solely my opinion-- which as I will say yet again is the point of this thread. It's pretty pitiful if you have to make things up and say other people said it.

Furthermore, I don't bash FFVII 'because it's overrated'. I bash it because I don't like it. QED. End of point. I'm done discussing this. I wasn't even going to post again in here until I saw that you misquoted me.

[Roto13]

Exactly how many 2D PS1 games did you see during the first few years of it's life? Sony was very adamant about taking advantage of the fact that the PS1 was capable of processing 3D graphics.

Basically, saying Final Fantasy VII is revolutionary because it was 3D is like saying Star Fox 64 was revolutionary for using the N64 analog stick.

[Yar]

Exactly how many 2D PS1 games did you see during the first few years of it's life? Sony was very adamant about taking advantage of the fact that the PS1 was capable of processing 3D graphics.

Basically, saying Final Fantasy VII is revolutionary because it was 3D is like saying Star Fox 64 was revolutionary for using the N64 analog stick.


Thank you. This is what I've been trying to express, but I keep overcomplicating my arguments.

[Overdose]

Basically, saying Final Fantasy VII is revolutionary because it was 3D is like saying Star Fox 64 was revolutionary for using the N64 analog stick.
Aside from all the other countless qualities that make FFVII revolutionary and a great game, the point of the 3D graphics was that it was revolutionary for the SERIES, not games in general. That's a big distinction many people are CONVENIENTLY forgetting.

[The Crystal]

You just don't know when to quit, do you?

The person who says, everytime, that is not going to post here anymore, but always returns for more, is you... Not me.


I didn't say that. Don't make up false quotes and say I said it. I didn't say it was overrated because 'it have many spin-offs' as you fabricated, but because it got undeserved attention, which is solely my opinion-- which as I will say yet again is the point of this thread. It's pretty pitiful if you have to make things up and say other people said it.

Furthermore, I don't bash FFVII 'because it's overrated'. I bash it because I don't like it. QED. End of point. I'm done discussing this. I wasn't even going to post again in here until I saw that you misquoted me.

It wasn't a literal quote, but it was what you was saying, basicaly.
Here, let me remember you:


I'll say now that I fully agree with Sagensyg here, but since I'm already walking on eggshells here (because heaven forbid I have an opinion against yours)-- I don't like FFVII. I don't like the story. I don't like the characters. I don't like all of the countless plot holes. Most of all, I don't like the squealing fanbase that would pay full price for whatever FFVII-related game comes out. It's sickening to see that. Square-Enix knows that if the fans like it enough, they'll buy anything, no matter how much of a quick cash-in it is. I bet if Square-Enix had the FFVII logo printed on toilet paper, the fans would buy it.

Don't even reply to this, because I'm not coming back in here. Is FFVII overrated? Hell yes. If Square-Enix would stop with all of these knockoffs, they could get back to making more new, interesting games instead of milking a dead cow.

Remember now?
Your main argument here, is that FFVII is overrated because of the fanbase that would pay for whatever FFVII-game(whatever spin-off) comes out.

That's what you said. Don't deny the undeniable.


And in this same post, you practicaly insulted everyone who ever bought a FFVII spin-off.
Nice job. :rolleyes2


[!] google_ad_section_end [/!]

[Goldenboko]

That quote doesn't say that its overrated because of spinoffs Crystal. In that quote its read more like the way crappy spinoffs are bought reconfirms his belief that the game is overrated. Notice how he lists some things before it. Oh and no where in that quote does it say "FFVII is overrated because ______". It says, "I don't like FFVII because ________".

[Momiji]

That quote doesn't say that its overrated because of spinoffs Crystal. In that quote its read more like the way crappy spinoffs are bought reconfirms his belief that the game is overrated. Notice how he lists some things before it. Oh and no where in that quote does it say "FFVII is overrated because ______". It says, "I don't like FFVII because ________".

Thank you, Boko.

[Egami]

All I'm trying to say is that VII's 3D-ness wasn't as big an influence as some make it out to have been. 3D RPGs would've come about whether or not VII was 3D just by virtue of other [popular; going with popular games here] games such as Mario 64 or Zelda: OoT.

Just because the PSX allowed developers to make games in 3D it does not follows that every developer would make their games that way. Likewise, just because there were already games in 3D it doesn’t mean that VII would be that way as well. Square could have easily made VII a gradual improvement over VI instead of a radical one. It would have been a game like Lunar or Suikoden, with the same but improved 2D graphics and sprites. Even if it did go to 3D, it could have made VII like a Mario 64 (Zelda was released after VII), in 3D but smaller and with no FMVs. In both cases Square would have remained with Nintendo as it was going to be.

But they didn’t and went for something bigger and revolutionary, doing something that no of the previous FFs (or RPG) had done before and eventually transcending the limits of a medium (the N64 cartridge). Not even the series main “rival”, Dragon Warrior, did as much with its seventh entry in 2000 for the Playstation. The fact that VII was released for Playstation and not for the N64 was one of, if not the main factor that lead to the failure of that console and the triumph of the Playstation.

VII’s “3D-ness” when you compare it to I-VI was a radical change from the previous games and it paved the way for what we see in VIII-XII, which have been gradual improvements over what VII did very much as II-VI were gradual improvements over the first game. VII marks a watershed in the series in particular and in RPGs in general. Note how after VII was released a bunch of RPGs mimicking what VII did start to pop up: Legend of Legaia, Legend of Dragoon, etc. VII was like the iPod of its generation, it broke new ground in the genre and then nearly everyone followed suit.



Basically, saying Final Fantasy VII is revolutionary because it was 3D is like saying Star Fox 64 was revolutionary for using the N64 analog stick.

I am sorry but I don’t see how that comparison works. You are shifting the focus from the game itself and how it is built to a particular button from the controller of the console that it uses. By that logic, a flight simulator which I can play in my computer with the keyboard suddenly becomes revolutionary because it allows me to plug in a joystick to play it. I know that this is not what you think; it is just an example to show a different perspective of what you said. Something like that has no real impact on the game itself, unlike a change from 2D to 3D graphics.


Egami

[Roto13]

Just because the PSX allowed developers to make games in 3D it does not follows that every developer would make their games that way.


Basically, saying Final Fantasy VII is revolutionary because it was 3D is like saying Star Fox 64 was revolutionary for using the N64 analog stick.

I am sorry but I don’t see how that comparison works. You are shifting the focus from the game itself and how it is built to a particular button from the controller of the console that it uses. By that logic, a flight simulator which I can play in my computer with the keyboard suddenly becomes revolutionary because it allows me to plug in a joystick to play it. I know that this is not what you think; it is just an example to show a different perspective of what you said. Something like that has no real impact on the game itself, unlike a change from 2D to 3D graphics.


Egami

Sony was convinced that 3D was so big and revolutionary that nobody would want to play a 2D game ever again. They put a great deal of pressure on 3rd parties to only create games in 3D. Final Fantasy VII HAD to be in 3D, whether Square wanted it to be or not, as long as it was going to be on the PlayStation.

Also, the analog control stick was VERY revolutionary for video games and has a big impact on games designed for it. Try playing Super Mario 64 and then Super Mario 64 DS and you'll see why.




Basically, saying Final Fantasy VII is revolutionary because it was 3D is like saying Star Fox 64 was revolutionary for using the N64 analog stick.
Aside from all the other countless qualities that make FFVII revolutionary and a great game, the point of the 3D graphics was that it was revolutionary for the SERIES, not games in general. That's a big distinction many people are CONVENIENTLY forgetting.

Bubsy 3D was SOOO revolutionary! How amazing was that game? So was Duke Nukem 3D! Holy crap! And Simpsons Wrestling! And how about Dragon Quest VIII?

If doing something new within the context of the series is revolutionary, that word is getting thrown around way to much these days.

[Bolivar]

Sony was convinced that 3D was so big and revolutionary that nobody would want to play a 2D game ever again. They put a great deal of pressure on 3rd parties to only create games in 3D. Final Fantasy VII HAD to be in 3D, whether Square wanted it to be or not, as long as it was going to be on the PlayStation.


Actually Roto, my initial point about the transition that Egami and I were talking about has nothing to do with 3D - it has to do with CG pre-rendered backgrounds. If FFVII was an evolution, it probably would've used 3d tiles/blocks to construct the backgrounds, and maintained the static overhead view. A revolution overthrows what came before it. The developers did away with tiles completely and instead opted for 2d illustrations, on which the models could be tilted in any way, in order to achieve a cinematic use of the camera, utilizing different angles to portray the scene.

Which is another pretty revolutionary device VII introduced to the series - the camera as a storytelling tool.

Also, I'm doubtful as to where you're getting this notion that Sony "put a great deal of pressure" on developers to use 3d. The first legacy of kain game, a huge hit and a major franchise for Sony, was in 2d. Dragon Quest VII, released 7 years into the system's life cycle, was in 2d.

Also, if you played Dragon Quest VIII, you would actually find that 3d allowed it to do alot of things for the first time that had been foreign to the series.

[Roto13]

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post, but this is just silly:


Also, if you played Dragon Quest VIII, you would actually find that 3d allowed it to do alot of things for the first time that had been foreign to the series.

Dragon Quest VIII was anything but revolutionary. It was 3D, but it's still the same formula they've been milking since DQ 1. It was the first (and so far only) 3D game in the series, but it couldn't have possibly felt more stale.

[Bolivar]

I'm not going to bother with the rest of your post,
Could you at least address the "forcing developers to go 3d" thing?


[COLOR="Silver"]but this is just silly:


Also, if you played Dragon Quest VIII, you would actually find that 3d allowed it to do alot of things for the first time that had been foreign to the series.

Dragon Quest VIII was anything but revolutionary. It was 3D, but it's still the same formula they've been milking since DQ 1. It was the first (and so far only) 3D game in the series, but it couldn't have possibly felt more stale.

I never said revolutionary, but off the top of my head I could come up with 3 things which it added:

1) The world map was one of the most beautiful and interesting I've ever seen in any game, much less your traditional RPG. Even the changing of the daytime was captivating to watch, and it made going out and exploring every nook and cranny not only productive to get hidden treasure, but fun to explore and enjoy the more secluded areas.

2) It added more complexity to and made more noteworthy dungeons than could be possible in 2d, especially Rapthorne's Castle.

3) Showing the characters acting on the battle screen. New to DQ nonetheless.

I could go on. Did you play/beat DQVIII?

[Egami]

They put a great deal of pressure on 3rd parties to only create games in 3D. Final Fantasy VII HAD to be in 3D, whether Square wanted it to be or not, as long as it was going to be on the PlayStation.

That was probably the case for some developers but it was not the case for Square when it came to developing VII in 3D. VII was going to be another 2D SNES game like VI but the project was pushed to the side when the company was developing Chrono Trigger. After they decided to resume work in the game, which was before the N64 was released, they started to make it in 3D because they didn't want the series to lag behind in this area. They did a SGI demo with characters from VI. The size of the project demanded the use of CD-ROMs and it was because Nintendo decided to go with cartridges that Square announced it would release VII for Playstation. I don't think there was pressure from Sony on this one as far as making the game in 3D goes.

[Roto13]

There didn't need to be. But if they had decided to go the other way, there would have been.

[Saber]

When I first played FFVII back when it came out I didn't care about it being 3D. I just thought of it as a great game with good music and a grand storyline. Anyways all the people that say its only popular cause of its 3d-ness is not true. Some gamers though it was not traditional to the 2D graphics and hated it.

[unfinished fantasy]

Tifa's magnificent boobs (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/Tifa_Lockhart_art.jpg) is what sold 10 million copies of Final Fantasy 7.
Know your audience. 1997's virgin teenage boy.

Now it's 2008 -- one version for emo & other for virgin androgyne ... sigh.

[Yar]

Tifa's magnificent boobs (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/20/Tifa_Lockhart_art.jpg) is what sold 10 million copies of Final Fantasy 7.
Know your audience. 1997's virgin teenage boy.

Now it's 2008 -- one version for emo & other for virgin androgyne ... sigh.

Lord knows I bought Super Mario RPG for Valentina's boobs. :shifty:

[Carl the Llama]

There didn't need to be. But if they had decided to go the other way, there would have been.
But then it wouldnt have been on the PS1.

[Goldenboko]

There didn't need to be. But if they had decided to go the other way, there would have been.
But then it wouldnt have been on the PS1.

That was kinda his point :o

[Egami]

But then it wouldnt have been on the PS1.

I don't see why not. Considering that there were 2D games before and after VII was released, it doesn't seems like Sony minded developers doing it. Sony did not have a mindset of "make games in 3D or don't work for our console", as is being implied by some.

[Yar]

VII was expected to be a big hit. Letting it be of poor quality would've killed the series, which would've been bad for both Square and Sony.

Lesser games CAN get away with it later because they aren't expected to do much anyway.

[Carl the Llama]

There didn't need to be. But if they had decided to go the other way, there would have been.
But then it wouldnt have been on the PS1.

That was kinda his point :o

did you misread his post? (not sarcasm) his point was (IMO) that if they had decided to go 2D that Sony would have put pressure on them to go 3D, atleast thats the impression I get when I read his post.


I don't see why not. Considering that there were 2D games before and after VII was released, it doesn't seems like Sony minded developers doing it. Sony did not have a mindset of "make games in 3D or don't work for our console", as is being implied by some.
The reason it wasnt on the SNES/N64 was because it wanted to be in 3D correct? and the N64 used Cart and so couldnt handle that amount of data from the 3D world of Final Fantasy VII and so they went over to the Playstation.

Oh and im still waiting for where this "you WILL make 3D games" idea came from, perhaps you would like to tell us where this information came from Roto?

[Egami]

VII was expected to be a big hit. Letting it be of poor quality would've killed the series...

So...2D games are of poor quality just because they are 2D?



The reason it wasnt on the SNES/N64 was because it wanted to be in 3D correct?

Not quite, remember that the N64 had it's share of games in 3D (Mario 64, Zelda, etc), so the mere fact that it would be in 3D was not the reason. The game could have been made for N64 in 3D but smaller and without the FMVs. Or it would need a special cartridge to fit, which would have made the game too expensive.

[Roto13]

Oh and im still waiting for where this "you WILL make 3D games" idea came from, perhaps you would like to tell us where this information came from Roto?

I don't have my source on me (it was a magazine from a few years ago) and I don't make a habit of going farther than Wikipedia for this kind of thing. Believe it or don't. It's the truth.

[Rase]

Bernie Stolar (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Bernie-Stolar) is the guy you're thinking of. As the first president of SCEA he implemented a "no RPG" policy in the early days of the Playstation because most at the time were 2D, which he felt didn't showcased the PS1's power. Therefore it's logical to infer he discouraged any games from being 2D during his time there. He was released from Sony after the first holiday season of the PLaystation and then went over to Sega, where he oversaw the Saturn and the time leading up to the Dreamcast launch, before being let go from there also.

[Yar]

VII was expected to be a big hit. Letting it be of poor quality would've killed the series...

So...2D games are of poor quality just because they are 2D?

When the capability to make 3D games is available on its system, yes. They don't have to be bad games, but they aren't the best of quality concerning graphics.

[Goldenboko]

There didn't need to be. But if they had decided to go the other way, there would have been.
But then it wouldnt have been on the PS1.

That was kinda his point :o

did you misread his post? (not sarcasm) his point was (IMO) that if they had decided to go 2D that Sony would have put pressure on them to go 3D, atleast thats the impression I get when I read his post.

And they would've.


Bernie Stolar (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Bernie-Stolar) is the guy you're thinking of. As the first president of SCEW he implemented a "no RPG" policy in the early days of the Playstation because most at the time were 2D, which he felt didn't showcased the PS1's power. Therefore it's logical to infer he discouraged any games from being 2D during his time there. He was released from Sony after the first holiday season of the PLaystation and then went over to Sega, where he oversaw the Saturn and the time leading up to the Dreamcast launch, before being let go from there also.

[Egami]

Bernie Stolar (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Bernie-Stolar) is the guy you're thinking of. As the first president of SCEA he implemented a "no RPG" policy in the early days of the Playstation because most at the time were 2D, which he felt didn't showcased the PS1's power. Therefore it's logical to infer he discouraged any games from being 2D during his time there. He was released from Sony after the first holiday season of the PLaystation and then went over to Sega, where he oversaw the Saturn and the time leading up to the Dreamcast launch, before being let go from there also.

He left Sony before Square had begun developing VII and we find games like Suikoden and Beyond the Beyond, which are 2D RPGs, being developed and released during his time and which were more likely to be affected by his influence.

What happened with VII was that "Kitase [...] was concerned the franchise might be left behind if it did not catch up to the 3D computer graphics used in other games at the time." (Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_fantasy_vii)), and so they decided to make the game 3D. Sony may had preasured other developers to make their games 3D but when it comes to developing VII in 3D, it was all Square's doing.

[Heath]

I fear I might be somewhat jumping in at the deep end here, but what the hell.

I've always liked FFVII as a game. At one point it was my favourite in the series, probably after giving every game their first, initial playthrough I thought as much and could well have been a candidate to fit into the bordering on rabid fanboy territory. However, I think as I've matured I've come to look at the game in a more critical light. The music is fantastic, the graphics - for their time - were excellent and it's a very enjoyable game, but there are also some important flaws. The lack of any real character-specific customisation is one that really stood out to me after playing VI, IX and V. Besides limit breaks and equipment, there's not much that sets the characters apart in battle. I think it's important to take into account the games weaknesses as much as its strengths.

On the Internet, however, I do think that - by and large - it is overrated. Not because it is a bad game that is rated to be a good game, but because it is a great game that is rated as a pinnacle of human achievement in some circles. It's a great game and I really think it has allowed the series and RPGs in general to progress beyond the boundaries of SNES and NES. In terms of broadening the series overall appeal, I think FFVII is particularly strong. For all the dislike towards the fanboys, it's because of the fanboy buying FFVII and feeding the money into Square that we've managed to get the other games in the series and - arguably due to the revenue that VII produced - the quality of the rest of the series. I think certain aspects are overrated, but overall it's a quality game. It's a game that introduced a lot of us to the series, myself included, and so in that respect I'm sure it will have a special place in our hearts, but I think FFVII can be slated too much and rated too highly by some people. It's a great game all the same and one that I still very much enjoy playing.

[Bolivar]

Bernie Stolar (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Bernie-Stolar) is the guy you're thinking of. As the first president of SCEA he implemented a "no RPG" policy in the early days of the Playstation because most at the time were 2D, which he felt didn't showcased the PS1's power. Therefore it's logical to infer he discouraged any games from being 2D during his time there. He was released from Sony after the first holiday season of the PLaystation and then went over to Sega, where he oversaw the Saturn and the time leading up to the Dreamcast launch, before being let go from there also.

He left Sony before Square had begun developing VII and we find games like Suikoden and Beyond the Beyond, which are 2D RPGs, being developed and released during his time and which were more likely to be affected by his influence.

Yeah, there's alot of problems with that "no 2D" theory.


VII was expected to be a big hit. Letting it be of poor quality would've killed the series, which would've been bad for both Square and Sony.

Lesser games CAN get away with it later because they aren't expected to do much anyway.

FFVII's expectations only began to build once people started realizing how important of a game it was going to be. Final Fantasy, up to that point, had taken a backseat to Dragon Quest in Japan, and had only a moderate success in the states. It was virtually unheard of in Europe. At the same token, Dragon Quest VII, always a big hit, opted to maintain 2d, and we're talkin years into the Playstation's life cycle.

[Rase]

He left Sony before Square had begun developing VII and we find games like Suikoden and Beyond the Beyond, which are 2D RPGs, being developed and released during his time and which were more likely to be affected by his influence.
No argument from me there, I simple assumed that was what everyone was talking about with the "no 2D" debate, so I figured I'd throw it out there.

[Yar]

FFVII's expectations only began to build once people started realizing how important of a game it was going to be. Final Fantasy, up to that point, had taken a backseat to Dragon Quest in Japan, and had only a moderate success in the states. It was virtually unheard of in Europe. At the same token, Dragon Quest VII, always a big hit, opted to maintain 2d, and we're talkin years into the Playstation's life cycle.

Dragon Quest VII was sprite-based, yes, but on a 3D environment, similar to Final Fantasy Tactics.

[Egami]

I fear I might be somewhat jumping in at the deep end here, but what the hell.

I've always liked FFVII as a game. At one point it was my favourite in the series, probably after giving every game their first, initial playthrough I thought as much and could well have been a candidate to fit into the bordering on rabid fanboy territory. However, I think as I've matured I've come to look at the game in a more critical light. The music is fantastic, the graphics - for their time - were excellent and it's a very enjoyable game, but there are also some important flaws. The lack of any real character-specific customisation is one that really stood out to me after playing VI, IX and V. Besides limit breaks and equipment, there's not much that sets the characters apart in battle. I think it's important to take into account the games weaknesses as much as its strengths.

On the Internet, however, I do think that - by and large - it is overrated. Not because it is a bad game that is rated to be a good game, but because it is a great game that is rated as a pinnacle of human achievement in some circles. It's a great game and I really think it has allowed the series and RPGs in general to progress beyond the boundaries of SNES and NES. In terms of broadening the series overall appeal, I think FFVII is particularly strong. For all the dislike towards the fanboys, it's because of the fanboy buying FFVII and feeding the money into Square that we've managed to get the other games in the series and - arguably due to the revenue that VII produced - the quality of the rest of the series. I think certain aspects are overrated, but overall it's a quality game. It's a game that introduced a lot of us to the series, myself included, and so in that respect I'm sure it will have a special place in our hearts, but I think FFVII can be slated too much and rated too highly by some people. It's a great game all the same and one that I still very much enjoy playing.

Good post Heath :)

VII is my favorite game but I can understand and agree with some of the points you raise here. I agree, the game has it's flaws, I believe they are minor (obviously) and are either easily overlooked or don't really affect things that much. As I pointed out in a previous post, some fans of the game tend to exaggerate things a bit and in so doing fail to admit the weaknesses of the game. On the other hand, others tend to downplay what the game did for the series and RPGs in general (some fans tend to exaggerate on this too).

With regards to the lack of character specific customization., I think that what happens is that the materia system opens the character almost completely for customization. Within the context of the game, the materia system makes a lot of sense and is one of the things I like the most about it. It is rooted and derived from the plot, not something that is isolated which one only uses in battle. Besides the limit breaks and equipment, in battle the weapons of the characters can sometimes make a difference. For instance, Vincent, Barret and Yuffie have long ranged weapons that can reach some flying enemies that the others can't. Granted, the game doesn't exploits this fact as much as games like FF X does, which makes you use Wakka for some monsters, Auron for others, etc. I think they could have exploited this a bit.

I think it depends on how one looks at it. Personally this didn't really bother me and after VI, I felt it was a better system which beside giving you nearly complete customization of the characters, also allowed you to choose the characters based on your bond with them. Now you were no longer forced to use the same characters because you almost can't do without their abilities (Sabin's Blitz, Cyan's Sword Tech, Edgar's Tools, etc) now you could choose them based on how much you truly liked them as characters. Of course, this is my opinion and this issue in particular is down to personal preference. I take it you didn't like XII's system either?

Anyway, long post already...but good post again Heath, nice to see the points you made expressed in the way you did.


Egami

[Rase]

Guess I may as well try and contribute to the topic now that I'm in this thread.

Concerning character customization, I must say that is probably what I dislike about this game. As others have said it's all personal preference, but a system like FFVII's Materia would work for me better in a game where you only control one character, as it would be harder to make some god team and I like developing and creating my own character in these types of games. This is one of the reasons I want to try Crisis Core so much, as you're just controlling Zack. With VII, I could take someone with a long-range weapon, or I could just slap some Long Range Materia on Cloud and there you go. Materia is certainly an interesting system, but I just wish that there was some more differentiation among the cast when it came to gameplay. For whatever reason I like the rigid class format in my RPG's, where every character has their distinct strengths and weaknesses and you have to just make due with them.

As for the game and it's overratedness... I guess I fall into the "I think it is, despite being good game". Personal preferences to gameplay and my apathy towards the characters as a whole weigh it down for me compared to many other games, but I would hardly say it's bad. It's just not for me, and so from my perspective it does get more praise then I see fit (it's hardly alone in this category either). I'm sure everyone has games that fall into this category for them, yet this never immediately means the game is bad. So yeah, I like FFVII, thinks it's a grand game that was fairly inventive and took some risks, but not worthy of some of the praise it gets. Admittedly though, this crazy praise is seen less and less by me, so it's only a little on the overrated side right now. :D

Anyway, enough rambling. Resume your arguments over 3D or whatever.

[Bolivar]

^ good input, Rase, but I disagree a little with the customization.

FFI, II, III, V, and essentially VI before it all let you make your characters and subsequently your party into anything you wanted them to be. The only real difference between VI and VII was that you had to wait for your limit bar to fill up in order to use their character-specific abilities, rather than being able to spam them every turn.

In VII, not every character is good at attacking and not every character is good at using magic. Cait Sith makes great use of materia like D.Blow due to his high luck (I think). With materia, you can make very character specific roles. It's basically the job system broken down into smaller pieces, and that's something I like about VII that it inherited from the classic FF's, something which alot of American fans who never played the Japanese releases get confused about.

[Egami]

The only real difference between VI and VII was that you had to wait for your limit bar to fill up in order to use their character-specific abilities, rather than being able to spam them every turn.

Thats a nice way of looking at it :)

[Roto13]

I beat Sephiroth using only Knights of the Round over and over and over again. There's spamming to be done in VII.

[Momiji]

If you use a Hyper on Cloud, he'll be able to spam Omnislash rather frequently. :p

[Egami]

Hehe...you can kill Emerald weapon in a few minutes by using Omnislash and having Mime + Counter. You first use Omnislash and then when Emerald attacks...it is all over...Cloud will counter with Omnislash about 8 times and kill it.

Of course, you need several of each materia in master to do that, something which can be a bit time consuming (see (http://youtube.com/watch?v=-lG9k7yk-nU)).

[Lawr]

Or just plain abuse! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=1ovxL1wdjtI&feature=related)

[Egami]

Well, that is a known bug. The person who did it surely spent a LOT of time playing the game to get it to kill Emerald with one hit.

[Karellen]

The difference between games like FFV and games like FFVII is that while FFV lets you learn everything it puts severe limitations on the amount of abilities you can equip at any one time. FFVII sort of tried to restrict you somewhat by separating black magic into fire/ice/thunder magic, white magic into cure/de-curse magic etc. but FFVII is so generally unchallenging that you only need one type of black magic and white magic anyway.

The result is that very early on everyone is a good spell caster, everyone is a good support character and everyone has a powerful summon. There is no real challenge because no matter how circumstances change during battle the character who's turn is up will almost always have the capacity to deal with it more then efficiently. Materia only gets more plentiful and more overpowered as the game goes on to the point where you start getting things like 2/4x cut, attack/all and high-level HP plus materia, at which point the game is an absolute joke.

[Egami]

The difference between games like FFV and games like FFVII is that while FFV lets you learn everything it puts severe limitations on the amount of abilities you can equip at any one time. FFVII sort of tried to restrict you somewhat by separating black magic into fire/ice/thunder magic, white magic into cure/de-curse magic etc. but FFVII is so generally unchallenging that you only need one type of black magic and white magic anyway.

The result is that very early on everyone is a good spell caster, everyone is a good support character and everyone has a powerful summon. There is no real challenge because no matter how circumstances change during battle the character who's turn is up will almost always have the capacity to deal with it more then efficiently. Materia only gets more plentiful and more overpowered as the game goes on to the point where you start getting things like 2/4x cut, attack/all and high-level HP plus materia, at which point the game is an absolute joke.

While it is true that VII is rather easy, the things you are pointing out about the materia system such as 4x cut, quadra magic and the like are found in games like V and VI. See for instance this battle with X-Death in V:

YouTube - Final Fantasy V Final Boss Battle Exdeath - SNES (http://youtube.com/watch?v=2kyq7RI3hNo)

Multiple hits and casting holy multiple times in a single turn. Also see this one from VI where Kefka is killed in one turn by a single character by doing the same multiple hit attack (8 hits in total):

YouTube - Kefka one hit kill (Final Fantasy VI) (http://youtube.com/watch?v=CqV0C9Ir7RM)

In both V and VI magic and abilities become "more plentiful and more overpowered as the game goes on" to the point where you get things like the ones you see on the videos among others. So, I don't really think we can single out VII on this issue.

[Karellen]

Oh, I don't mean to just single out FFVII on the issue. As I mention in the FFVI thread, most of the bad trends with game balanced started with that game and if you want to get technical were also seen way back in FFII (although FFII's ridiculous mechanics make that game insane anyway). FFVII isn't the pinicle of broken gameplay in FF games either; that dubious distinction would probably go to FFVIII.

That being said, while there are certainly easy enough to break FFV if you learn all the right abilities (even more so then what that video showed) you still have to put more thought into coming up with the best combination when you only have one job and one class ability to work with. Such planing is absent in FFVII because you can equip so much powerful materia at once, with a lot of said powerful materia being practically handed to you as the game progresses.

[Egami]

Such planing is absent in FFVII because you can equip so much powerful materia at once, with a lot of said powerful materia being practically handed to you as the game progresses.

Actually, you cannot just spam your characters with materia like crazy. For instance, green (Magic) and red (Summon) materias come with trade offs and bonuses on your stats. The more of these materia you equip on a character, the lower it's HP and strenght goes. So you need to balance things out and think about the way you distribute your materia across your characters. There is also the way you pair materias with one another and the weapon you put them on to think about. Weapons can have a single, double, triple or no growth at all. The materia system involves a lot of planning and strategy and allows a lot of possibilities and experimentation.

As far as how one obtains materia, they are handed to you very much in the same way that magic was handed to you in earilier FFs. Just as you could purchase many spells on shops and others you found in other places, so too it is in VII with materias. The most powerful materias are not handed to you and involve doing sidequests that are not part of the main game.

And with spells and other abilities of materias, you obtain them as you level up, very much as you obtain magic from Espers in VI or learn new abilities of a specific job in V as your characters win experience.

[Karellen]

Actually, you cannot just spam your characters with materia like crazy. For instance, green (Magic) and red (Summon) materias come with trade offs and bonuses on your stats. The more of these materia you equip on a character, the lower it's HP and strenght goes. So you need to balance things out and think about the way you distribute your materia across your characters. There is also the way you pair materias with one another and the weapon you put them on to think about. Weapons can have a single, double, triple or no growth at all. The materia system involves a lot of planning and strategy and allows a lot of possibilities and experimentation.

I found the stat bonuses to be mostly insignificant. If they had been a 10 or 20% increase/decrease each then it may have had an effect but as it stood I didn't feel dissuaded with loading any of my characters up with any sort of magic. Similarly I only ever used the double/tripple EXP weapons while they were the most powerful as well, since there is no real need to level anything up quickly due to aforementioned lack of challenge within the game. The only materia I remember spending a significant amount of cash on was HP Plus.


As far as how one obtains materia, they are handed to you very much in the same way that magic was handed to you in earilier FFs. Just as you could purchase many spells on shops and others you found in other places, so too it is in VII with materias. The most powerful materias are not handed to you and involve doing sidequests that are not part of the main game.
I bought the vast minority of my materia. Most of it was quite literally lying on the ground. The REALLY powerful ones like KOTOR and Mime require lengthy sidequests, yes, but there are plenty of relatively broken materia like the ones I mentioned such that you don't have to touch those to obliterate everything beyond the game's uber bosses.


And with spells and other abilities of materias, you obtain them as you level up, very much as you obtain magic from Espers in VI or learn new abilities of a specific job in V as your characters win experience.
I didn't comment on that at all.

[Egami]

I found the stat bonuses to be mostly insignificant. If they had been a 10 or 20% increase/decrease each then it may have had an effect but as it stood I didn't feel dissuaded with loading any of my characters up with any sort of magic.

The point is that they have an impact on your status and the more magic and summons you load on a character, the weaker it gets. You also have a limited number of slots for materia per character, something that prevents you from overloading a character with all magic and summons.

Compare that with how things are on the two previous games, where you can have a character with all the white and black magic and even summons available at any time without suffering any penalties. Want to have Sabin with Ultima, Flare, Meteo, all Cures, Fires, Bolts, Ice, etc in VI? Just get him to learn it from the Espers and he can carry as much magic as you want him to without this detracting from his stats. Not mention that after he learns the spells from the Espers he does not needs to keep it but can pass it along and still retain as many spells as you want him to. Unlike in VII where you must keep the materia on the character despite the fact that you have mastered it.

In V things are quite similar, a Mimic can use all the white and black spells you have learned and the summons you have at any time. Or if you use the Suppin (normal) class, you can access all the abilities of your mastered classes at any time and even a couple of skills, again without significant penalties to your stats.

I would say that the materia system in VII puts on you more limitations than the system in VI and about the same if not more than the system in V. That the enemies are less challenging is besides the point and quite frankly, something that not everyone would agree with.



I bought the vast minority of my materia. Most of it was quite literally lying on the ground. The REALLY powerful ones like KOTOR and Mime require lengthy sidequests, yes, but there are plenty of relatively broken materia like the ones I mentioned such that you don't have to touch those to obliterate everything beyond the game's uber bosses.

Some are on the ground in several places, others require defeating bosses (i.e. Bahamut, Shiva) and other require doing side quests (i.e. Leviatan) or completing certain missions within specific parameters (i.e. Ultima, Phoenix). That is hardly different from the way you find Espers in VI and Jobs in V, the latter of which you get from crystals, something that you must obtain to advance the plot.



I didn't comment on that at all.

But I did and the point is to compare and contrast the systems of each.

[Goldenboko]

Stat bonuses are completely worthless in FFVII anyway :P

Any severe HP drop can be fixed with a simple "HP Plus" for those unwilling to level. My file was a clear example of "Materia fixes everything." FFV required lots of leveling and thought of perfect combinations. FFVII not as much. I was way too underleveled to beat Emerald and Ruby but by stacking up on HP Pluses, Mimic, and KOTR the entire thing was effortless. Many strong summons didn't require that kind of work. I remember quite a lot of materia (Bahamut ZERO anyone?) being in easily obtained places as long as you paid attention. Worse yet these summons didn't require leveling to be strong at all.

FFV the summons weren't as powerful, yet in most cases (let's exclude KOTR) where just as difficult if not more so to find (without a strategy guides help I would've never found Ramuh a summon that isn't even worth much). The real strengths came in leveling your classes, (Ranger, Monk, Magic Swordsman) which required time, thought for combinations, and when it comes down to it, either knowledge of the game already so you know what you get when you level, or a guide of some sort.

In FFVII you where rewarded for just, paying, attention. As for VI, I found that game broken, but not until the World of Ruin, and even then everything required some sort of work. Even Altima weapon because you had to level it by killing monsters (Offer+Genji Glove+Altima Weapon+2nd most powerful weapon=Win).

[Wolf Kanno]

^ good input, Rase, but I disagree a little with the customization.

FFI, II, III, V, and essentially VI before it all let you make your characters and subsequently your party into anything you wanted them to be. The only real difference between VI and VII was that you had to wait for your limit bar to fill up in order to use their character-specific abilities, rather than being able to spam them every turn.

In VII, not every character is good at attacking and not every character is good at using magic. Cait Sith makes great use of materia like D.Blow due to his high luck (I think). With materia, you can make very character specific roles. It's basically the job system broken down into smaller pieces, and that's something I like about VII that it inherited from the classic FF's, something which alot of American fans who never played the Japanese releases get confused about.


I disagree, in my playthroughs, I've found that Cloud and Aerith are the only characters with significant stats changes (Aerith is a mage, and Cloud is just plain broken) hell even the official strategy guide doesn't hide the fact that the characters are all basically the same.

As for the Limit Breaks adding individuality, I agree and disagree. I'll agree their Level 1 and 2 limit breaks are different and unique and makes choosing your party important. Once they reach level 3 almost all the limit breaks devolve into "different animation, same affect: damage" The only difference being the amount of times the attack hits. Strategy and individuality disappears at this point. I'm not saying previous or even later games don't have these issues but lets be honest here. You basically have Cloud, Aerith, and everyone else. Though at least the game does have some distinctions.



I found the stat bonuses to be mostly insignificant. If they had been a 10 or 20% increase/decrease each then it may have had an effect but as it stood I didn't feel dissuaded with loading any of my characters up with any sort of magic.

The point is that they have an impact on your status and the more magic and summons you load on a character, the weaker it gets. You also have a limited number of slots for materia per character, something that prevents you from overloading a character with all magic and summons.

Compare that with how things are on the two previous games, where you can have a character with all the white and black magic and even summons available at any time without suffering any penalties. Want to have Sabin with Ultima, Flare, Meteo, all Cures, Fires, Bolts, Ice, etc in VI? Just get him to learn it from the Espers and he can carry as much magic as you want him to without this detracting from his stats. Not mention that after he learns the spells from the Espers he does not needs to keep it but can pass it along and still retain as many spells as you want him to. Unlike in VII where you must keep the materia on the character despite the fact that you have mastered it.

In V things are quite similar, a Mimic can use all the white and black spells you have learned and the summons you have at any time. Or if you use the Suppin (normal) class, you can access all the abilities of your mastered classes at any time and even a couple of skills, again without significant penalties to your stats.

I would say that the materia system in VII puts on you more limitations than the system in VI and about the same if not more than the system in V. That the enemies are less challenging is besides the point and quite frankly, something that not everyone would agree with.

I disagree, I've never found overloading specific materia on a character to have serious penalties. The only time I ever saw a drastic change was when I gave Vincent almost every Summon Materia I owned. Their was a change in HP and MP but I never noticed any further affects.

You also forget about Master Materia which offers only benefits. All magic on Barret with no consequences. In comparison to your earlier example; sure you can remove the materia and Barret doesn't have them anymore whereas Sabin retains it but lets be serious here... Who uses Sabin as a mage? Hell, I would argue restricting him to magic is a handicap for the player. :p

Also, one factor that we seem to have overlooked concerning the lack of difficulty in VII comes from Ultimate weapons and the Enemy Skill materia. I know Blue magic has always been a hit or miss... oh I can't even say that lets face it, they've been nerfing it ever since VII. Blue Magic is flat out broken in V,VI, and VII. The thing I've noticed about VII's though, is that in all my games I end up using Enemy Skill materia exclusively and stop using magic all together.

The four elemental spells are easily as strong as their level 3 counterparts and easier to acquire, they cost slightly less. In my current file I just got Time and Barrier materia and I haven't touched them. Why would I neglect such powerful materia? Cause I have Mighty Guard which casts Haste, Shell, and Protect on my whole party in one round. Saving me anywhere from two to four slots. The thing makes magic materia obsolete imo. It also makes the game a joke cause the spells are overpowered as hell.

As for Ultimate weapons, its hard to argue against a weapon being overpowered when it allows your character to do max damage every time. Yes they have rules and allow no Materia growth but Enemy skill materia fixes that problem and who spams summons anyway? Hell once you get mug and 4x cut, you don't need to bother with leveling command materia. As for rules, I've found they are not only easy to maintain but are flexible enough not to bother. Cloud has to lose a third of his health before you start noticing a difference in damage.

A lot of FFs are guilty of being broken, VI basically gives you two of the most broken characters in the game right off the bat. As stated by others, quite a few games allow your party to decimate a group of enemies right off the bat with little consequences (looks at VI) but only a few FFs allow you the chance to have a single character take a boss out in the first round. VI, VII, VIII, and X are all guilty of this gaming sin. :mad:

My problem with the battle system overall in VII is that its really cool in the beginning where you are quite restricted. Yet due to overpowered materia, Limit Breaks, and equipment, the whole system falls apart. It offers strategy but the game lacks challenge to ever need to use it as well as overpowered abilities and options that makes forming intricate strategies a waste of time. In order to make the battle system shine, you have to severely restrict your party, at which point I feel that the game designer has failed in his duties.

Now that this topic has gotten more interesting, I may need to post a more thorough discussion on how I feel about VII especially since I reached a revelation about it while playing it a few days ago.

[ljkkjlcm9]

FFVII's only individuality between characters was limit breaks. This made me decide on Cid Barret and Cloud as my party, because they had the most hits on their level 4 limit breaks... that's all there was to it.

In FFVIII, it was similar, limits being the unique thing.
FFIX went back to FFVI type thing and each character had their special skills... real reasons to pick certain characters again.
FFXII, you could make everyone identical again, even make every character able to do everything. Every character could be like Gogo was in VI.

I loved VI, because it gave me a reason to use different characters. They were actually unique. It was basically like FFV, except rather than a single character choosing what he did, you had a specific character that did it. Liked the Samurai and GP toss, well use Setzer, etc...

honestly VII had one major problem I didn't see in any of the previous games. Yes they had their problems, but not like VII.
in I, you picked you characters, and there was reason behind them
in II, your characters had to be trained certain ways. If you made them a mage, they'd suck as a fighter, and vice versa. Characters were different depending on how you made them.
in III, you choose classes again. But now you can change. But then again, if you leveled as a mage previously, stick with that character as a mage.
in IV, it's MAJOR flaw, was being forced to use certain characters with certain abilities. GBA fixed this by letting you pick characters. DS fixed this by allowing customization of the characters you're forced to have.
in V, it was like III, except a bit more so, and a bit more lenient. You could mix and match classes, but still, depending how you leveled them, they were permanently affected.
Then VI. Which to me, perfected all the previous games. You have all the different classes like I, or III, or V... you have specific characters having certain abilities, like IV. You have customizable stats like II (with espers). ON top of that, you had Gogo, who could use any abilities you wanted, but at the price of not being as good as the original. Basically, I saw VI as taking the best of all the previous games, and putting it together.
VII was a step back for me from that. I felt like there was no difference between the characters, and the one person who truly stood out, was killed. It's my biggest problem with the game, and will always be my biggest problem with the game. I felt the battle system was a step back from VI.

THE JACKEL

[Lawr]

in IV, it's MAJOR flaw, was being forced to use certain characters with certain abilities. GBA fixed this by letting you pick characters. DS fixed this by allowing customization of the characters you're forced to have.

Well, I think that would be a challenge aspect of the game IMO. You're given something and utilize their strengths and weakness, like how you could have an alternating number of people in the front/back rows.

[Goldenboko]

I agree with Sagensyg 100%

[FF_Chick]

I think FFVII is overrated. It is hard to even play the game. I see nothing good nor great about it. I have finished it, twice. And yet, I see nothing to be in "awe" about. So to me, it's overrated.

And the fanboys who think I hate it because it's "cool", fine then. I hate FFVII because it's "cool." Believe whatever you want.

[Karellen]

The point is that they have an impact on your status and the more magic and summons you load on a character, the weaker it gets. You also have a limited number of slots for materia per character, something that prevents you from overloading a character with all magic and summons.

As I said though, the stat effects aren’t significant enough to dissuade one from giving characters magic material as they see fit. Similarly, while the material slots prevent you from using everything they’re not much of a restriction either. ONLY being able to equip 4-16 materia isn’t much of a restriction. For the most part I found the amount of material slots was relatively proportional to the amount of material I had, leaving me with quite an easy task of weeding out the amount that was useless anyway.


Compare that with how things are on the two previous games, where you can have a character with all the white and black magic and even summons available at any time without suffering any penalties. Want to have Sabin with Ultima, Flare, Meteo, all Cures, Fires, Bolts, Ice, etc in VI? Just get him to learn it from the Espers and he can carry as much magic as you want him to without this detracting from his stats. Not mention that after he learns the spells from the Espers he does not needs to keep it but can pass it along and still retain as many spells as you want him to. Unlike in VII where you must keep the materia on the character despite the fact that you have mastered it.

I don’t know why you are comparing the system to FFVI when I already said I don’t consider FFVI to have a good system either.


In V things are quite similar, a Mimic can use all the white and black spells you have learned and the summons you have at any time. Or if you use the Suppin (normal) class, you can access all the abilities of your mastered classes at any time and even a couple of skills, again without significant penalties to your stats.

This is true but at the same time what you’re describing isn’t really all that flexable. A mimic with three types of magic will have to forgo the item command and any auto-abilities. It wouldn’t be hard to come up with a really good combination of those three choices (depending on how many classes you’ve mastered. I only had about 5 mastered for each character by end game) but that’s far more limited then what the material system allows.


I would say that the materia system in VII puts on you more limitations than the system in VI and about the same if not more than the system in V. That the enemies are less challenging is besides the point and quite frankly, something that not everyone would agree with.

I have never met anyone who thinks FFVII is harder then FFV. Possibly FFVI, depending on who you ask.


Some are on the ground in several places, others require defeating bosses (i.e. Bahamut, Shiva) and other require doing side quests (i.e. Leviatan) or completing certain missions within specific parameters (i.e. Ultima, Phoenix). That is hardly different from the way you find Espers in VI and Jobs in V, the latter of which you get from crystals, something that you must obtain to advance the plot.

Getting jobs in FFV isn’t the exact equivalent of getting powerful material in FFVII. Most of them have to be leveled up significantly to get their best abilities and some that have cool abilities are pretty useless in and of themselves (hunter, for example). Materia usually gets progressively more powerful as it levels up as well but unlike FFV where you can only level one job at a time any materia you have equipped levels up at the same rate which makes any sort of planning irrelevant.

[Egami]

I was way too underleveled to beat Emerald and Ruby but by stacking up on HP Pluses, Mimic, and KOTR the entire thing was effortless.

Obtaining Mime and KOTR is hardly effortless, you have to spend some time raising chocobos to get them and even then, the location of KOTR is not even hinted at in the game or the map. Sure, having Mime and KOTR makes the battle against the weapons easier but still, a mere one star KOTR with one Mime won’t really do, especially if you are underleveled.



Many strong summons didn't require that kind of work. I remember quite a lot of materia (Bahamut ZERO anyone?) being in easily obtained places as long as you paid attention. Worse yet these summons didn't require leveling to be strong at all.

Well, how much leveling did you need to do for Ultima, Flare or Holy to be strong in V and VI? Not much. In VII, while a summon is strong right off the bat, they require leveling to get stronger and for you to be able to use them more than once per battle.

As I pointed out previously, materias of any type are obtained in different ways in VII, ways that are very much the same as in the previous games. Some are easy to find and some are hard. It is like that with everything in any game.



FFV the summons weren't as powerful, yet in most cases (let's exclude KOTR) where just as difficult if not more so to find (without a strategy guides help I would've never found Ramuh a summon that isn't even worth much).

Yet, some people actually complain a lot (about XII in particular) because some FFs make you rely on a strategy guide to find some things; something which is seen by many as a cheap trick done to sell the guide. All games (V, VI and VII) have things that are hard to find and others that are easy. Just as you get many materias easily in VII, so too you get many Espers easily in VI (Magitek Factory comes to mind) and classes in V.




The real strengths came in leveling your classes, (Ranger, Monk, Magic Swordsman) which required time, thought for combinations, and when it comes down to it, either knowledge of the game already so you know what you get when you level, or a guide of some sort.

All of which can as easily be said about VII. You need to level up the materias to get the spells you need and equip the materia you want to level up and combine then in different ways, all of which requires thought for combinations. You are free to say that V requires more strategy and what not, but really that is something rather subjective and not really on point.



In FFVII you where rewarded for just, paying, attention. As for VI, I found that game broken, but not until the World of Ruin, and even then everything required some sort of work. Even Altima weapon because you had to level it by killing monsters (Offer+Genji Glove+Altima Weapon+2nd most powerful weapon=Win).

In every FF all things require some work. Materias in VII do not come mastered and with all their abilities enabled, you have to spend time to level them up before you get to use them fully and with summons you must level them up to make them more powerful and to be able to use them several times per battle.



You also forget about Master Materia which offers only benefits. All magic on Barret with no consequences. In comparison to your earlier example; sure you can remove the materia and Barret doesn't have them anymore whereas Sabin retains it but lets be serious here... Who uses Sabin as a mage? Hell, I would argue restricting him to magic is a handicap for the player.

Feel free to change Sabin for any other character :). I just used him as an example because he was the first one to come to mind.

As far as the Master Materia goes, granted, it does offer only benefits, but how easy is to get it? It certainly is not something you obtain by following the main course of the game. It involves quite a bit of effort and time to get your hands on it and by the point you get it, I would say that it isn’t that relevant. I mean, if you are able to beat Emerald weapon without it, or if you already have all summons mastered (for example), what advantage does it really adds? By that point you are not going to be using Shiva, Ifrit, Ramuth or any other summon with the exception of the most powerful ones nor will you be using Ice, Fire or Bolt in place of more powerful magic.



The thing I've noticed about VII's though, is that in all my games I end up using Enemy Skill materia exclusively and stop using magic all together.

The Enemy Skill materia while useful does not comes with all skills in it. You have to not only have it equipped but also must face some particular enemies and endure one of their special attacks in order to learn that skill. Add to that the fact that even if you learn an ability like Aqualung from a monster, it is not passed down to all your Enemy Skill materias but only to the ones you have equipped and if the skill hits a single target, your chances of learning the skill get lower. If you don’t know where and from whom you obtain the different skills, chances are that you will miss quite a few, something that will eventually lead you to balance things out between magic and Enemy Skills, especially when some Enemy Skills like Magic Breath actually heal some enemies.



In my current file I just got Time and Barrier materia and I haven't touched them. Why would I neglect such powerful materia? Cause I have Mighty Guard which casts Haste, Shell, and Protect on my whole party in one round. Saving me anywhere from two to four slots. The thing makes magic materia obsolete imo.

What you are pointing out is simply an alternative way of going around things, hardly a problem with the game itself. Different ways of going about things are found in nearly all FFs. As I pointed out above, in order to obtain such skills as Big Guard, you have to face specific monsters and be lucky that they use the skill and you have the Enemy Skill materia equipped. But what if you don’t and missed the monster that gives you that skill or you simply don’t know that you can have it? That happens to a lot of people and instead they use the Time and Barrier materias.



My problem with the battle system overall in VII is that its really cool in the beginning where you are quite restricted. Yet due to overpowered materia, Limit Breaks, and equipment, the whole system falls apart. It offers strategy but the game lacks challenge to ever need to use it as well as overpowered abilities and options that makes forming intricate strategies a waste of time.

Well I agree on some points with you here. The game, the enemies in particular, is quite easy and lacks challenge. This lack of challenge probably ends up hindering the potential of the materia system. However, I don’t see this lack of challenge as something that emerges from the materia system itself but more from the overall difficulty of the enemies you face. Given the wide range of possibilities that the materia system gives, I think that they should have made the enemies or at least the bosses in such a way that their stats vary depending on your level or even on what sort of materias you have equipped, very much like the attack “Aire Tam Storm” of Emerald Weapon, which does damage based on how much materia you have equipped; or they could simply just make the enemies a bit harder than they are. Hopefully if they do a remake the difficulty of the game will be increased.

Anyway, good post Wolf Kanno. Nice to see more intelligent points raised about the game :)


Getting jobs in FFV isn’t the exact equivalent of getting powerful material in FFVII. Most of them have to be leveled up significantly to get their best abilities and some that have cool abilities are pretty useless in and of themselves (hunter, for example). Materia usually gets progressively more powerful as it levels up as well but unlike FFV where you can only level one job at a time any materia you have equipped levels up at the same rate which makes any sort of planning irrelevant.

Just as some jobs in V are useless in and of themselves until you get their cool abilities, so too some materias are useless until you level them up and are able to use them in battle (Ultima, FullCure, etc).

The materia system is very much the same job system of V broken down into smaller pieces. The materia system just grants you the ability to make up your own class by allowing you to assign materias pertaining to different jobs to a single character. Both systems have their limitations. In V, while a black mage is limited to black magic, at level 1 he can use Fire, Ice and Bolt on their first level and as he levels up, the three spells level up at the same time and he can use Fire 2, Ice 2 and Bolt 2 and so on. In VII, while I can use Fire, Ice and Bolt from the get go if I equip their materias, if my Ice materia levels up I can use Ice 2, but it doesn’t follows that I can also use Fire 2 and Bolt 2. I need to level up each materia individually and all materias need different amounts of AP to level up, very much like the jobs in V. On top of that, unlike in V, where your black mage can target all enemies with a given spell right away, in VII you must assign an All materia to a particular magic materia in order to be able to hit all enemies with it and this materia must also be leveled up individually if you want to be able to do this more than once per battle. So again, while I may be able to hit all enemies with my Ice materia, it doesn't follows that I can do it with my Fire materia.

So, while in V you can only level up one job at a time, all the abilities of that particular job level up at the same rate, very much as the materias that you equip your characters with do.

[PeneloRatsbane]

boring......does no one just play for funzies instead of going on and on and on about leveling up and battling

[Egami]

boring......does no one just play for funzies instead of going on and on and on about leveling up and battling

Sure :)

But the topic of the thread is wether or not VII is overrated. People who think so are bringing up different reasons as to why they think the game is not great.

[PeneloRatsbane]

......I understand the concept of the thread....
LMAO
But surely you can see the futility and sheer boredom it breeds. I mean i'm all for a debate but come on there has to be a line drawn somewhere.
All the problems in the world, this one seems rather miniscule.
FFVII is fun! thats the point of it, isn't it? :) X

[Egami]

But surely you can see the futility and sheer boredom it breeds. I mean i'm all for a debate but come on there has to be a line drawn somewhere.

Well, perhaps since you have been here for over a year this sort of stuff bores you. For me this is something new, I had never discussed let alone debate about a videogame before, this is the first time I've ever done this.

But still, I do get what you mean.

[Bolivar]

Getting jobs in FFV isn’t the exact equivalent of getting powerful material in FFVII. Most of them have to be leveled up significantly to get their best abilities and some that have cool abilities are pretty useless in and of themselves (hunter, for example).

Actually, the Hunter's ability to use swords and !Aim makes him one of the few good candidates for the Blood Sword, which is insane once you figure out how to get it working.


VII was a step back for me from that. I felt like there was no difference between the characters, and the one person who truly stood out, was killed. It's my biggest problem with the game, and will always be my biggest problem with the game. I felt the battle system was a step back from VI.

Man I disagree completely, especially on the VII to VI comparison.

First off, the differences between characters in VII was limit breaks, statistics, and weapon classes, which are the only real divisions in VI. VI's character abilities were basically the same as limit breaks, except you could spam them every turn, completely removing strategy or variation, so I have to say if anything VII improved upon VI, not the adverse. And alot of the weapon classes in VI overlapped, so the characters aren't really as unique as you're making them out to be.

The Esper system in VI has to be probably the worst the series has ever seen. Every character can permanently learn every spell, and because of the time you spend, you may as well have them all learn the most powerful spells - completely annihilating uniqueness - basically every character is a mage, only a handful of the large cast get enough unique equipment to make them more than that. Not to mention that the statistic effects are so minimal, that it's really only at the end of the game (and that's if you did a considerable amount of the sidequests/grinding) that it really has any impact.

VII's statistic impact was immediate and noticeable. Loading a character with magic spells will diminish their physical attack, but give them a huge edge magically. But you still have to think with it, because loading up Barret or Cid will never make effective mages as it would Cloud or Red XIII.

The strategy is there, and as with all other FF's, the most effective battle plan is to capitalize on each character's strengths, even if it means further compromising their weaknesses - this has been all throughout the series. But the best part about VII is that you can ignore it and just have fun if you want to, rendering this entire discussion pointless.

That's yet another reason why VII brought so many mainstream/casual gamers into the RPG fold - it wasn't nearly as dreadfully monotonous as RPGs had been up to that point. And I know because I played alot of them and still do.

[Wolf Kanno]

You also forget about Master Materia which offers only benefits. All magic on Barret with no consequences. In comparison to your earlier example; sure you can remove the materia and Barret doesn't have them anymore whereas Sabin retains it but lets be serious here... Who uses Sabin as a mage? Hell, I would argue restricting him to magic is a handicap for the player.

Feel free to change Sabin for any other character :). I just used him as an example because he was the first one to come to mind.

I just had to make a joke about it. :p


As far as the Master Materia goes, granted, it does offer only benefits, but how easy is to get it? It certainly is not something you obtain by following the main course of the game. It involves quite a bit of effort and time to get your hands on it and by the point you get it, I would say that it isn’t that relevant. I mean, if you are able to beat Emerald weapon without it, or if you already have all summons mastered (for example), what advantage does it really adds? By that point you are not going to be using Shiva, Ifrit, Ramuh or any other summon with the exception of the most powerful ones nor will you be using Ice, Fire or Bolt in place of more powerful magic.The same can be said of all the other FFs to be honest, but I feel the time it takes to make Master Materia is actually not as hard as some feel. Magic and Command materia are quite easy if you know a good leveling spot (same as V, VI, X, and XII). Summon not so much but then again, who need 3 Knights of the Round? Personally, I never felt magic materia was all that important except for using in conjunction with Element and Added Effect Materia. Command Materia in conjunction with Ultimate Weapons (plain broken) makes magic obsolete. Hades, Bahamut Zero with Quad magic and Knights of the Round; these are just a few materia's that hold no tactical value cause they basically mean instant win.



The Enemy Skill materia while useful does not comes with all skills in it. You have to not only have it equipped but also must face some particular enemies and endure one of their special attacks in order to learn that skill. Add to that the fact that even if you learn an ability like Aqualung from a monster, it is not passed down to all your Enemy Skill materias but only to the ones you have equipped and if the skill hits a single target, your chances of learning the skill get lower. If you don’t know where and from whom you obtain the different skills, chances are that you will miss quite a few, something that will eventually lead you to balance things out between magic and Enemy Skills, especially when some Enemy Skills like Magic Breath actually heal some enemies.The problem with your argument is that you are assuming its a first playthrough. I would agree you are right under those circumstances but I'm talking about a second or third playthrough when you finally understand the system better. You get two Enemy Skill materia fairly early (Shin-Ra building and Junon) and most of the broken abilities are fairly easy to obtain once you know where to get them due to experience. Manipulate and Control are your weapon of choices when gaining such skills and Cait Sith comes equipped with one in time and shows up relatively early in the game, as opposed to getting the Fake Mustache in VI or leveling the Tamer class in V. I'm not even out of the first disc in my current file and I have 3/5 if not 2/3 of all the Blue magic in the game. Hell the three most abusive spells (Magic Hammer, White Wind, and Mighty Guard) are openly used by their monsters, so it doesn't take long to figure out who you need to manipulate.

I also would like to point out that VII's version of White Wind and Mighty Guard are far more broken than earlier and even later counterparts. With HP materia, White Wind makes even the magically challenged uber powerful healers and its ability to remove all status ailments makes it even more useful. Only in VII does Mighty Guard cast haste on your party as well.



My problem with the battle system overall in VII is that its really cool in the beginning where you are quite restricted. Yet due to overpowered materia, Limit Breaks, and equipment, the whole system falls apart. It offers strategy but the game lacks challenge to ever need to use it as well as overpowered abilities and options that makes forming intricate strategies a waste of time.Well I agree on some points with you here. The game, the enemies in particular, is quite easy and lacks challenge. This lack of challenge probably ends up hindering the potential of the materia system. However, I don’t see this lack of challenge as something that emerges from the materia system itself but more from the overall difficulty of the enemies you face. Given the wide range of possibilities that the materia system gives, I think that they should have made the enemies or at least the bosses in such a way that their stats vary depending on your level or even on what sort of materias you have equipped, very much like the attack “Aire Tam Storm” of Emerald Weapon, which does damage based on how much materia you have equipped; or they could simply just make the enemies a bit harder than they are. Hopefully if they do a remake the difficulty of the game will be increased.
I agree that the enemies lack difficulty, it was a problem I felt appeared first in its predecessor. Granted the difficulty issues are far more terrible in later installments (VIII and X respectively) but like VI I felt the average difficulty level made the flaws in the gameplay more apparent. Even if the enemies were a bit tougher, it wouldn't change the fact that Level 3 and up limit breaks, Ultimate weapons, 2x/4x Cut, Slash-All and KotR are insanely broken in comparison to earlier games.. They are relatively easier to obtain, and as Bolivar pointed out, the Materia system allows you to experience their power immediately in some of the cases whereas in previous installments you had to earn such power and even then few were as blatantly broken. As I said earlier, I like the idea behind the materia system but too many factors (mediocre difficulty, overpowered end-game abilities and broken materia) make it unable to reach its true potential.


Anyway, good post Wolf Kanno. Nice to see more intelligent points raised about the game :)Thank you, its nice to see more well thought out debates. I'm certain, Bolivar and The Crystal are bored with me and my cynical view. ;)





VII was a step back for me from that. I felt like there was no difference between the characters, and the one person who truly stood out, was killed. It's my biggest problem with the game, and will always be my biggest problem with the game. I felt the battle system was a step back from VI.

Man I disagree completely, especially on the VII to VI comparison.

First off, the differences between characters in VII was limit breaks, statistics, and weapon classes, which are the only real divisions in VI. VI's character abilities were basically the same as limit breaks, except you could spam them every turn, completely removing strategy or variation, so I have to say if anything VII improved upon VI, not the adverse. And alot of the weapon classes in VI overlapped, so the characters aren't really as unique as you're making them out to be.

Statistics? Weapon Class? In VII? Seriously, I found the statistics in VI were far more important than VII. Materia never seemed to create major changes in my parties stats. I've played this game half a dozen times and I never noticed major changes. Its not that I don't believe they exist but I just never felt they made any difference either for the better or for the worse. The only obvious change was hp and mp and with the mediocre difficulty I never felt low hp was a serious threat since very few enemies can do serious damage until the end of the game. Cloud and Aerith are the only two characters with significant stat differences and the rest have such minor changes its like debating about the statistical difference of your party in VIII which most would agree is irrelevant. Hell stats don't mean anything once you get the Ultimate weapons.:p

Weapons? If you are talking about long range, it rarely had any tactical advantage except in two boss fights, which I don't consider a very compelling use of its versatility. IV made better use of long range weapons than VII did. The only person who had a gimp weapon was Aerith but its obvious she was designed to be a traditional mage character.


The Esper system in VI has to be probably the worst the series has ever seen. Every character can permanently learn every spell, and because of the time you spend, you may as well have them all learn the most powerful spells - completely annihilating uniqueness - basically every character is a mage, only a handful of the large cast get enough unique equipment to make them more than that. Not to mention that the statistic effects are so minimal, that it's really only at the end of the game (and that's if you did a considerable amount of the sidequests/grinding) that it really has any impact.First off, their is actually enough noticeable stat differences in VI's cast to make teaching every spell a unnecessary. Outside of giving Cyan buff spells and healing magic, he's a lousy mage. Hell if VI didn't have the three uber broken weapons, Terra would be a lousy warrior. If Locke didn't have the Valiant Knife he would be all but useless cause he's an ok fighter and a mediocre mage at best. Course VI does smurf it all up with character specific super weapons but not everyone got one.

VI had a better variety of weapons and their uses are better diversified for the party in comparison to VII (though XII and V kicks both their asses imo) Outside of long range the party weapons offer little in special ability (mostly cause the materia system made it pointless to do so) occasionally you get a weapon that changes materia growth or one that powers up when an ally dies but that's it. Its left to the materia system and for the most part, I felt the game never made it practical to add elements or status elements to weapons and armor, if only cause the Elemental/Added Effect materia are few and far between. It was there but it didn't have the benefits of previous games rendering useless for all but the bored.

As for the stat growth, it is powerful and quite deep. In a first play through it might not seem like much but once you get the basics of your party down and realize how their stats affect them it becomes obvious that the stat bonuses are important and careful planning makes it useful. As I mentioned before, teaching magic to Cyan or Sabin is pretty useless sense they are lousy mages. You're time leveling your real mages can also be spent boosting Cyan and Sabin's stats like speed, strength or their HP. it only takes a few levels to notice a difference. If you are going for efficiency, its better to teach magic to those who can actually use it and boost the stats of those who need it for their special abilities. Granted, Edgar, Celes and Setzer cause a bit of gray area but overall they have quite a few customization options that allow diversification.

Which brings me to relics. Yes only a few characters have personal ones but you seem to forget that not everyone can use every relic effectively. Genji Gloves and the Offering/Master Scroll is powerful but lets face it, a few characters skills makes the combo useless. Only characters able to equip the uber broken weapons or Setzer and his Fixed Dice can use the combination effectively. Some relics can either cover up a characters weakness or or exploit their strengths, and hey guess what, the effect is felt immediate as well.:p


That's yet another reason why VII brought so many mainstream/casual gamers into the RPG fold - it wasn't nearly as dreadfully monotonous as RPGs had been up to that point. And I know because I played alot of them and still do.Not monotonous? it still requires grinding to get anywhere, and if your silly enough to want high level magic, that's even more grinding. Hell, just trying to master half the materia or get spells like Ultima, Flare, and Life2 will require you to grind more than you would have, had it been based on levels. That is the main problem with materia, it is your party. It doesn't matter what your parties actual level is or who they are as long as the materia is high enough. Sure it allows you to use your favorite characters without worrying about consequences but where is the fun in that? I like using my favorite characters regardless if they are the strongest or most useful. It brings back IV's system where you need to exploit the useful traits of your characters. In example, despite how game breaking, broken the Figaro brothers are, I don't use them. Why? cause I like other characters better.

The materia system may indeed be noob friendly yes, but for people like me who enjoy deep customization it leaves much to be desired. In earlier games, certain parties or job classes work better than others, in VII it only matters what your materia is. Ultimate weapons allow everyone to do max damage even if you have been neglecting levels. By end game the only thing that separates Limit breaks is how many time they hit the enemy. Where is the strategy and fun in that?

Overall, I feel VII's system is ok, it offers the potential for strategy but the game difficulty makes alot of it pointless imo. It depends on your poison, I like VI's system better cause it offers better customization and special abilities and a system that offers permanent statistical differences; makes turning your parties into complete clones difficult. VI also suffers from overpowered abilities and a mediocre difficulty; but I feel the game offers enough for me personally to ignore these faults. :cool:

[Hyperion4444]

overated?
not really...
oversold.
definatly!

[Bolivar]

Hell the three most abusive spells (Magic Hammer, White Wind, and Mighty Guard) are openly used by their monsters, so it doesn't take long to figure out who you need to manipulate.

I just have to say that's not true, well sorta. On the first disc, White Wind is only available (pretty sure) on the first continent, and you can only get it after obtaining manipulate on the second. Alot of players probably don't know you can boat back to the first, much less think about going there.




Anyway, good post Wolf Kanno. Nice to see more intelligent points raised about the game :)Thank you, its nice to see more well thought out debates. I'm certain, Bolivar and The Crystal are bored with me and my cynical view. ;)

Not at all, your posts at least bring up debatable material and some actual insight (every now and then of course :cool: )



Statistics? Weapon Class? In VII? Seriously, I found the statistics in VI were far more important than VII. Materia never seemed to create major changes in my parties stats. I've played this game half a dozen times and I never noticed major changes. Its not that I don't believe they exist but I just never felt they made any difference either for the better or for the worse. The only obvious change was hp and mp and with the mediocre difficulty I never felt low hp was a serious threat since very few enemies can do serious damage until the end of the game. Cloud and Aerith are the only two characters with significant stat differences and the rest have such minor changes its like debating about the statistical difference of your party in VIII which most would agree is irrelevant. Hell stats don't mean anything once you get the Ultimate weapons.:p

Weapons? If you are talking about long range, it rarely had any tactical advantage except in two boss fights, which I don't consider a very compelling use of its versatility. IV made better use of long range weapons than VII did. The only person who had a gimp weapon was Aerith but its obvious she was designed to be a traditional mage character.


I never said the stat meanings/effects were stellar. I simply said they are there, and it is indeed noticeable, however minor, that you will hit for less and have less hp if magic materia is equipped. And likewise, Barret and Tifa will never become as good mages as Cloud or Red XIII. That's not really debatable.

In VI, however, the first espers you get have the opportunity to (permanently) teach your characters -ara class spells. To even use your own example - I usually give Cyan Ramuh for the +1 Stamina bonus. Despite your assurance that giving such characters magic is pointless, it doesn't change the fact that for a good point in the game Cyan tears through multiple enemies at a time with Thundara.

The only point I made about weapons was that it distinguished characters, each one had their own distinct weapon class, while many of them, such as swords and daggers overlap in VI. And there are more than "rare" instances when ranged weapons make a difference - we could go down the list of fliers, or settle for the fact that such a large quantity of battles have front and back rows of enemies.


Outside of giving Cyan buff spells and healing magic, he's a lousy mage. Hell if VI didn't have the three uber broken weapons, Terra would be a lousy warrior. If Locke didn't have the Valiant Knife he would be all but useless cause he's an ok fighter and a mediocre mage at best. Course VI does smurf it all up with character specific super weapons but not everyone got one.

I gotta flip your own argument on you on this one. Not only did I provide the -ara example, but at the end of the game, any character with -aga spells are going to do some damage, simple and plain. And, ironically, in VI the stat differences are not big enough to hinder Terra's ability as a warrior. Give her any sword as it becomes available and she'll probably rock with it. Not as much as Edgar, but still. And Locke does get a good flux of unique weapons all throughout the game - I know this is getting a little too technical, just thought I'd throw it in :p


Outside of long range the party weapons offer little in special ability (mostly cause the materia system made it pointless to do so) occasionally you get a weapon that changes materia growth or one that powers up when an ally dies but that's it.

Actually, there are plenty of weapons throughout the game that calls for the player to make a choice, whether it be little to no materia slots for higher ATK, or the growth issue. Just because you only remember the Yoshiyuki doesn't mean they're not there. :cool:


As for the stat growth, it is powerful and quite deep.

While I agree with, and definately use, the principles of comparative advantage you talk about on every playthrough, I have to say you're really exaggerating here. Maybe you honestly believe this, but I've played VI plenty of times, and I just can't agree at all. Cyan and Edgar will be killer tanks throughout the game, no matter what espers you give them.



Not monotonous? it still requires grinding to get anywhere, and if your silly enough to want high level magic, that's even more grinding.

I was simply referring to the casual gamer being able to play through it without having to focus too much on numbers or dragging him/herself through boring dungeons which look exactly like the last one (It got old really fast in VI). Of course VII is hardly the most in-depth RPG battle system, but the quest for efficiency is there if you desire it, and I myself fine tune my strategy, even just a little, each time I play.


In earlier games, certain parties or job classes work better than others, in VII it only matters what your materia is.

Dude, that's like saying only jobs matter in III or V, or only equipment and spells matter in II, since the characters are even less distinct in those games than they are in VII. Actually, that's exactly what it's supposed to be, and I think all of those games have interesting systems, so it's hardly a fault at all. Just another cop out to bash the game.

Word.

[Wolf Kanno]

I just have to say that's not true, well sorta. On the first disc, White Wind is only available (pretty sure) on the first continent, and you can only get it after obtaining manipulate on the second. Alot of players probably don't know you can boat back to the first, much less think about going there.

Like Egami, the fault, in your argument is you are assuming its just first timers or very very casual gamers. A seasoned player knows they can go back because you need to grab the Mythril from the sleeping old man so you can get Aerith's Great Gospel Limit Break. Magic Hammer is obtained on the third continent with Wutai, which I would also like to point out that after you steal the Tiny Bronco, the game starts you on the shores of the third continent. Mighty Guard is from the nautilus looking monsters found on most of the beaches of the second continent. Another thing to point out is that Manipulate is the easiest way to obtain them. If you really wanted them before that, you could farm Loco Grass dropped from the Hammer Blasters, Sword Masters, and 3rd Class SOLDIERS in the Shin-Ra Tower. A little confusion and you have a decent chance of the monster pulling off the Enemy Skill. Granted, even I feel this is excessive but it is possible.



I never said the stat meanings/effects were stellar. I simply said they are there, and it is indeed noticeable, however minor, that you will hit for less and have less hp if magic materia is equipped. And likewise, Barret and Tifa will never become as good mages as Cloud or Red XIII. That's not really debatable.

In VI, however, the first espers you get have the opportunity to (permanently) teach your characters -ara class spells. To even use your own example - I usually give Cyan Ramuh for the +1 Stamina bonus. Despite your assurance that giving such characters magic is pointless, it doesn't change the fact that for a good point in the game Cyan tears through multiple enemies at a time with Thundara.

Now let me point out one thing out before I get accused of this. I never said VI's system is better than VII. IMO I like both systems and I feel they are about equal. In fact, I find that both of them suffer from the same problems (overpowered abilities, mediocre difficulty, and a very abusive customization system). I just feel that VI's system caters to my personal taste better. Personally. I'm a job class person so V and FFT are my faves :cool:

Magic is overpowered in VI, in fact VI probably has the most overpowered magic in the series hands down. As you indirectly pointed out, most of the magic probably does 2x to 4x more damage than any other FF. VI is still the only game where Osmosis is actually a very good spell. Because of this, even loser mages like Cyan and Locke can appear powerful. Yet I feel at end game it becomes apparent that using Cyan as a mage is counterproductive unless you raised his magic stat a ton. Yeah, he's probably doing serious damage with -aga spells and Flare, but he doesn't hold a candle to Terra or Relm whose magic power almost guarantee's an instant win.

I feel VI has a stronger emphasis on stats than VII yet I will also agree that the overpowered magic makes diversity (i.e. not turning everyone into a mage) an issue in VI as well. I just feel VII does the same thing.


The only point I made about weapons was that it distinguished characters, each one had their own distinct weapon class, while many of them, such as swords and daggers overlap in VI. And there are more than "rare" instances when ranged weapons make a difference - we could go down the list of fliers, or settle for the fact that such a large quantity of battles have front and back rows of enemies.

I'm just saying that I felt IV did a better job utilizing the ranged weapons than VII cause its fairly easy to kill the front lines in a single round making the back row a minor inconvenience. Throw in your whole parties ability to cast magic and I feel ranged weapons are a moot point in diversity in VII. In IV it was rather common to have some powerful mage like monster in a back row spamming powerful spells like Bio and Blaze while being protected by powerful meat shields. I never saw VII really pull this off cause it was fairly easy to either wipe out all the monsters at once or your party can tear the front row apart. Hell the enemies in the back row were never annoying enough to warrant "must kill first" status like they would in pre-VI FFs.



I gotta flip your own argument on you on this one. Not only did I provide the -ara example, but at the end of the game, any character with -aga spells are going to do some damage, simple and plain. And, ironically, in VI the stat differences are not big enough to hinder Terra's ability as a warrior. Give her any sword as it becomes available and she'll probably rock with it. Not as much as Edgar, but still. And Locke does get a good flux of unique weapons all throughout the game - I know this is getting a little too technical, just thought I'd throw it in :p

Its fine, as I stated above, I don't think VI's combat system is superior or without the same faults VII has. I just prefer it over VII's system. I feel stats become a bit a more important by end game but like you pointed out, VI is not without its broken weapons and abilities. One could argue that giving Terra a blade is a bit of a handicap though, considering her magic stat is so smurfing high, she can do max damage with -ara spells in her trance state against multiple enemies. She's a good fighter but she can do more as a mage imo. Seriously, I feel the games have about the same level of difficulty and both have highly abusive systems that only hardcore fans can appreciate cause they make 98% of battles in the games a joke.

If I want challenge in an FF, I generally don't play any game after V with the possible exception of XII. VI-X are all fairly easy imo with IX being the most challenging out of that group.



Actually, there are plenty of weapons throughout the game that calls for the player to make a choice, whether it be little to no materia slots for higher ATK, or the growth issue. Just because you only remember the Yoshiyuki doesn't mean they're not there. :cool:

Granted I may be exaggerating (you also forgot the Powersoul and Motor Drive ;)) but I feel most players either stuck to materia growth or number of slots. Having higher ATK, at the cost of available options for combat seems like a boring choice. Its like using berzerkers in previous games, while potent, they make combat sorta boring. From reading other peoples thoughts about RPGs I notice "options in combat" tends to be high on the list concerning combat systems. Its why FFI and IV get so much hate cause they are the most limiting systems in the series. I do in fact experiment with weapons in VII but I feel the choices don't add to much in the end. I felt III, IV, and V did a better job considering how often weaknesses needed to be exploited in order to win battles.


While I agree with, and definitely use, the principles of comparative advantage you talk about on every playthrough, I have to say you're really exaggerating here. Maybe you honestly believe this, but I've played VI plenty of times, and I just can't agree at all. Cyan and Edgar will be killer tanks throughout the game, no matter what espers you give them.

While I agree most of VI's cast starts off blatantly powerful and the stat system may be a waste cause overall, most maintain uber-ness throughout the game. Yet, if you are seeking efficiency and specification, its there, you just need to care about it. Once again this is a difference in taste.

I guess the best way to explain would be to take Aerith and twink her into an even more powerful mage through clever use of materia, equipment, and stat sources. Most would argue its pointless (ignoring the fact she leaves permanently after the first disc) cause Aerith already starts off as the games strongest mage and even trying to nerf her magic abilities will only knock her down into second place for the most part. Yet the joy of customizing her into a better and more efficient mage is fun for the most part. That in essence is what I enjoy about VI's Esper/Relic system. In the long run its pointless but I do gain some enjoyment out of it. :cool:


I was simply referring to the casual gamer being able to play through it without having to focus too much on numbers or dragging him/herself through boring dungeons which look exactly like the last one (It got old really fast in VI). Of course VII is hardly the most in-depth RPG battle system, but the quest for efficiency is there if you desire it, and I myself fine tune my strategy, even just a little, each time I play.

I felt VI offered enough to prevent grinding in the game, half the cast is broken so leveling them up or teaching them magic is a moot point. With such a large cast, it inspires the player to play through a few more time trying out different parties and during these playthroughs, I feel the player begins to experiment more with the games customization system. As for dungeons, I never felt they were a problem in VI. In fact I enjoy the multi party puzzle dungeons quite a bit in VI so the two most painfully long dungeons (3 in the GBA version) at least have a bit more going for them.

At least I never got seriously lost cause I didn't realize the doorway to the next area was this poorly drawn black glob that mysteriously looks like part of the background. Or a light fixture that looks like a doorway is actually just part of the background. I got lost so many times my first time through VII (Mt. Nibel, Temple of the Ancients, Ice Cavern, and the Glacier). By the time I got out of the 1st disc my party level was in the high 60s :D


Dude, that's like saying only jobs matter in III or V, or only equipment and spells matter in II, since the characters are even less distinct in those games than they are in VII. Actually, that's exactly what it's supposed to be, and I think all of those games have interesting systems, so it's hardly a fault at all. Just another cop out to bash the game.

Two things, One, it seriously doesn't matter who you take to fight Sephiroth at the end. Cloud has to be there but your other two party members don't matter cause it comes down to their materia set up cause by end game I feel stats are a moot point in VII. Just like in VI, VIII, and possible XII, it doesn't matter cause it comes down to how you set the party up it doesn't matter who you bring. If your strategy involves a heavy hitter and two mages, it doesn't matter who you is in your party cause the systems allow you to set up any character fulfill the strategy and differences are only minor.

Second, I just felt the limitations that earlier games had in conjunction with their systems offered more careful planning than later games. The fact of the matter is, unless you over level, certain classes and combinations just don't work in earlier titles. You cannot get through FFII and III without at least one character specializing in magic. You had to build teams to work for you and the fact of the matter is certain combos are infinitely better than others. The thing about the job class system is that every class has distinct strengths and weaknesses. You have to build your party in a way to exploit the strengths while covering the weaknesses.

Starting in FFVI, the game design was changed where careful planning and strategy existed but in the end was a moot point cause the systems are so open that any combination can work and any character can be changed to fulfill such roles. In fact, in VI, VII, and VIII. Your entire party can be the heavy hitter and the powerful mage and it takes little to no effort to build them that way. I blame it mostly on the nerfed difficulty. It doesn't make these games bad; in fact some are better than others in this regard. I just feel it exists in these games and when people complain about how the systems create clones, I understand where they are coming from. I hope that cleared up any confusion.


Word...

...to your mother! :cool:

[Slothy]

VII's statistic impact was immediate and noticeable. Loading a character with magic spells will diminish their physical attack, but give them a huge edge magically. But you still have to think with it, because loading up Barret or Cid will never make effective mages as it would Cloud or Red XIII.

The strategy is there, and as with all other FF's, the most effective battle plan is to capitalize on each character's strengths, even if it means further compromising their weaknesses - this has been all throughout the series.

Materia never had a noticeable impact on characters. Even altering their HP and MP, or other stats by what should be noticeable percentages does nothing to really affect their effectiveness in battle. Some are good at physical attacks, some aren't, and everyone can rock the house with magic. There was no strategy in FFVII except attack with magic (particularly if the enemy is weak against something), heal when you need to, and use limit breaks as soon as they fill up. Even if you're a little underleveled, that will pretty much guarentee that you never die. I'm not going to sit here and claim that a game like FFVI needed more strategy than that (despite being my favourite it really didn't though boosting stats makes more of a difference in it), but I've played VII more than enough to know that it's stats, weapon differences, and characters don't really matter. It stands as one of the easiest games in the series.

[Bolivar]

VII's statistic impact was immediate and noticeable. Loading a character with magic spells will diminish their physical attack, but give them a huge edge magically. But you still have to think with it, because loading up Barret or Cid will never make effective mages as it would Cloud or Red XIII.

The strategy is there, and as with all other FF's, the most effective battle plan is to capitalize on each character's strengths, even if it means further compromising their weaknesses - this has been all throughout the series.

Materia never had a noticeable impact on characters. Even altering their HP and MP, or other stats by what should be noticeable percentages does nothing to really affect their effectiveness in battle. Some are good at physical attacks, some aren't, and everyone can rock the house with magic. There was no strategy in FFVII except attack with magic (particularly if the enemy is weak against something), heal when you need to, and use limit breaks as soon as they fill up. Even if you're a little underleveled, that will pretty much guarentee that you never die. I'm not going to sit here and claim that a game like FFVI needed more strategy than that (despite being my favourite it really didn't though boosting stats makes more of a difference in it), but I've played VII more than enough to know that it's stats, weapon differences, and characters don't really matter. It stands as one of the easiest games in the series.

No offense, Vivi22, but when I used the word "noticeable", it meant that I noticed Barret's attack going down from (let's say) 105 to 92. I think that was made clear about how trivial it was.

And I actually already stated pretty much everything you said - the character differences are all very trivial. If you keep reading I describe how that was a part of VII's success.

Wolf, I actually read all of your post, and I gotta say, I think we've had the most in-depth discussion on FF battle systems I've seen on here. I really can't find anything wrong with what you have to say in that last one. At least we know that we both play VI and VII focusing on efficiency, even though we both very well know that both games can be beaten by 5 year olds.

[Wolf Kanno]

Glad we came to an understanding :cool:

[Roto13]

You're doing the internet wrong.

[Carl the Llama]

I beat Sephiroth using only Knights of the Round over and over and over again. There's spamming to be done in VII.

When do you get KotR lol? right at the end of the game is where.

Where do you get {character ability} in VI? all over the game and most of the time you can learn it just by level said character (Terra and Celes for example can learn Ultima just from leveling).


I felt like there was no difference between the characters, and the one person who truly stood out, was killed.

I actully prefer it this way so if for instance you think Tifa is a dirty smurfette then you dont have to use her, if you think Cait Sith is a traitor for handing over the life stione you dont have to use him either ect. (I think neither about either two examples just fyi)


Not monotonous? it still requires grinding to get anywhere
No I actully dissagree here I never had to grind at any point during Final Fantasy VII.

And for people who want a challenge then here is my suggestion to you: DO a challenge lol, if you have played it through x amount of times then try maybe an innitial equips/materia/solo game/no limit breaks ect. then the game gets dramatically harder. The main reason for me to replay a game is much like the same reason im currently re-re-re-reading Shadow of a Dark Queen by Raymond E. Feist: for the story.

[Goldenboko]

You're doing the internet wrong.

[Wolf Kanno]

I beat Sephiroth using only Knights of the Round over and over and over again. There's spamming to be done in VII.

When do you get KotR lol? right at the end of the game is where.

Where do you get {character ability} in VI? all over the game and most of the time you can learn it just by level said character (Terra and Celes for example can learn Ultima just from leveling).

Celes cannot learn Ultima naturally if memory serves me correct, she gets Meteor. You also act like they learn it at lv. 30 when in fact they get the uber spells in the high 90s. I think it would be easier to just wait and get the Ragnarok esper or the Paladin Shield towards the end of the game...




I felt like there was no difference between the characters, and the one person who truly stood out, was killed.

I actully prefer it this way so if for instance you think Tifa is a dirty smurfette then you dont have to use her, if you think Cait Sith is a traitor for handing over the life stione you dont have to use him either ect. (I think neither about either two examples just fyi)

I think he meant gameplay wise. Except for Limit Breaks most of the cast is pretty much the same with minor stat differences. VIII had a similiar problem.



Not monotonous? it still requires grinding to get anywhere
No I actually disagree here I never had to grind at any point during Final Fantasy VII.

And for people who want a challenge then here is my suggestion to you: DO a challenge lol, if you have played it through x amount of times then try maybe an initial equips/materia/solo game/no limit breaks etc. then the game gets dramatically harder. The main reason for me to replay a game is much like the same reason im currently re-re-re-reading Shadow of a Dark Queen by Raymond E. Feist: for the story.

Let me clarify my statement. If you want the high level abilities, Limit Breaks, or master materia you have to grind. Cloud is about the only character guaranteed to get all his Limit breaks while the others actually have to work for it (unless you do what I do and consistently use the same party.). 4X-Cut, Mug, Coin Toss, Ultima, Flare, and Full-Cure all require some dedication to obtain and use. Granted, you don't need any of these abilities to win. Sephiroth isn't exactly the hardest boss in gaming history but if you wanted to gain high level abilities or be able to cast Bahamut Zero more than once, you seriously need to grind to get it to happen.

Its like saying you can teach every magic spell in VI to a character without grinding or cheating. It's not going to happen. You may come closer than you would if you decided to make a set of master materia in VII without grinding but its still not realistic.

As for the challenge argument. That's fine when you are bored and pretty much mastered a game but I want a game that will challenge me without me having to make handicaps for myself. I'm not even asking for brutal "kick my ass" and "spam my powerful abilities" difficulty, just one that requires a bit more strategy and feels more rewarding. Challenge disappeared in the series. I want to feel like I earned my equipment or my next story sequence. The series has reached a point where a strategy for easy victory in a boss battle is to just spam normal attacks until it dies and you have a high chance of succeeding.

I don't see how the game developer has succeeded in creating a fun and rewarding experience. I feel they cater too much to the casual crowd or newbies to the franchise. Granted I don't feel catering to the hardcore is any better I just want a nice balance. I seriously dislike how developers make their games noob friendly and give hardcore players optional super challenges that in the long run doesn't do anything. Why must I wait to the end of the game to finally enjoy it? Especially at the end of the day it earns me nothing of value?

[Carl the Llama]

I beat Sephiroth using only Knights of the Round over and over and over again. There's spamming to be done in VII.

When do you get KotR lol? right at the end of the game is where.

Where do you get {character ability} in VI? all over the game and most of the time you can learn it just by level said character (Terra and Celes for example can learn Ultima just from leveling).

Celes cannot learn Ultima naturally if memory serves me correct, she gets Meteor. You also act like they learn it at lv. 30 when in fact they get the uber spells in the high 90s. I think it would be easier to just wait and get the Ragnarok esper or the Paladin Shield towards the end of the game...

I was useing Ultima just as an example, lots of powerful abilitys (Cyans Quadra slam is a great ability to spam for instance).




I felt like there was no difference between the characters, and the one person who truly stood out, was killed.

I actully prefer it this way so if for instance you think Tifa is a dirty smurfette then you dont have to use her, if you think Cait Sith is a traitor for handing over the life stione you dont have to use him either ect. (I think neither about either two examples just fyi)

I think he meant gameplay wise. Except for Limit Breaks most of the cast is pretty much the same with minor stat differences. VIII had a similiar problem.
If you read his post he is talking about the battle system, therefor my previous point stands.



Let me clarify my statement. If you want the high level abilities, Limit Breaks, or master materia you have to grind.
Beating Emerald Weapon doesnt require mass leveling and I have one simple pice of Materia that will allow you to repete the same summon over and over again: Mime.



Cloud is about the only character guaranteed to get all his Limit breaks while the others actually have to work for it
Again I must dissagree, every character requires much less kills to get their limits up, all you have to do is decide on who you want to use then kill all your enemys throughout the game with the aformentioned characters.


4X-Cut, Mug, Coin Toss, Ultima, Flare, and Full-Cure all require some dedication to obtain and use. Granted, you don't need any of these abilities to win. Sephiroth isn't exactly the hardest boss in gaming history but if you wanted to gain high level abilities or be able to cast Bahamut Zero more than once, you seriously need to grind to get it to happen.
Ultima, Flare and FullCure can all be cast with Master Magic which you get from Emmy, Coin Toss you get with Master Command, Mug im not sure (been a long time cant remember if its included in Master Comand) which leaves 4x cut... hardly nessisary to beat anything, like you say its a very easy game.



As for the challenge argument. That's fine when you are bored and pretty much mastered a game but I want a game that will challenge me without me having to make handicaps for myself. I'm not even asking for brutal "kick my ass" and "spam my powerful abilities" difficulty, just one that requires a bit more strategy and feels more rewarding. Challenge disappeared in the series. I want to feel like I earned my equipment or my next story sequence. The series has reached a point where a strategy for easy victory in a boss battle is to just spam normal attacks until it dies and you have a high chance of succeeding.
Its the same with every Final Fantasy I have played (with XI being the exception) if you want a challenge then go play Valkirye Profile 2 lol


I don't see how the game developer has succeeded in creating a fun and rewarding experience. I feel they cater too much to the casual crowd or newbies to the franchise. Granted I don't feel catering to the hardcore is any better I just want a nice balance. I seriously dislike how developers make their games noob friendly and give hardcore players optional super challenges that in the long run doesn't do anything. Why must I wait to the end of the game to finally enjoy it? Especially at the end of the day it earns me nothing of value?

I think your prolly setting your hopes to high there are very few RPG's on the market atm that have the level of difficulty your looking for (at least IMO). Maybe you should think about trying other games and just play the Final Fantasy's for fun and not a challenge.

[Goldenboko]

Just like to point out real quick, there are RPG's out with difficulty, the main FF's have not been difficult, but many RPG's still are, I can't be the only one who found DQVII hard. And Revenant Wings kicks my butt all the time.

[Wolf Kanno]

I was using Ultima just as an example, lots of powerful abilities (Cyan's Quadra Slam is a great ability to spam for instance).


I understand, I was just pointing out the error in logic with your original example.


If you read his post he is talking about the battle system, therefor my previous point stands

I read it wrong and see its a difference in taste but I agree with The Jackal that loss of individuality with the characters gives little incentive to use the other party members.

[

Beating Emerald Weapon doesnt require mass leveling and I have one simple pice of Materia that will allow you to repete the same summon over and over again: Mime.

I never mentioned beating the Weapons, I stated that getting the abilities naturally required grinding. Also, having one mime materia and an underdeveloped KotR doesn't equate victory against Emerald. As soon as the Mime dies its game over since he'll mime the last action and having a KotR that can only cast once isn't helpful...


Again I must disagree, every character requires much less kills to get their limits up, all you have to do is decide on who you want to use then kill all your enemies throughout the game with the aforementioned characters.

I stated in the rest of that paragraph that its possible to level up your other two non-Cloud party members if you keep them in the party throughout the game but my argument concerns getting everyone's Limit Break. Also if you switch out your party constantly, very few will have all their LBs by the end of disc 2. Its not like the scenario's in Disc 2 are incredibly long.



Ultima, Flare and Full-Cure can all be cast with Master Magic which you get from Emmy, Coin Toss you get with Master Command, Mug I'm not sure (been a long time cant remember if its included in Master Command) which leaves 4x cut... hardly necessary to beat anything, like you say its a very easy game.

I agree you don't need them to finish the game but I'll point you back to the argument about Emerald easily being beaten with the minimum requirements. Other than that, you need to level the materia.


Its the same with every Final Fantasy I have played (with XI being the exception) if you want a challenge then go play Valkyrie Profile 2 lol

Yeah but the series used to be challenging. I just miss that about the old games. Sure they were short but you were definetly more engrossed into the gameplay. I feel XII was step in the right direction though so I guess I can hope for the best. ;)



I think your probably setting your hopes to high there are very few RPG's on the market atm that have the level of difficulty your looking for (at least IMO). Maybe you should think about trying other games and just play the Final Fantasy's for fun and not a challenge.

I don't generally play FF for challenge and lately, I don't play them for plot or characters anymore either I'm afraid. :( There are a few challenging RPGs, the MegaTen games and many SRPGs have quite abit of challenge. As Boko mentioned, DQ is also a pretty challenging series as well if a bit grind-happy.

[Hyperion4444]

pretty heavy debate you all have going along.
btw, Didn't this thread started on 'is FFVII is too overated?'
I think you're living proof of thoses true FFVII fans.