Why you should ignore Edge's opinions from now on

[Roto13]

Bungie: Halo 3 Beats Out GTA IV, Portal, Wii Fit For Edge Innovation Award (http://kotaku.com/5035638/halo-3-beats-out-gta-iv-portal-wii-fit-for-edge-innovation-award)

Because if Edge is to be believed, gaming is at a standstill.

[DK]

Yeah you're missing the point bro, the award was not just for "innovation" but "interactive innovation", in other words the whole part of Halo 3 that Bungie have put together with regards to how their website intergrates with the game with both stat tracking and for the user created content and their constant updates to the game to allow people to create more game types and map varients. Which is fair enough, tbh. No one apart from Kotaku who apparently failed to read the article they linked to said that it was about the "space marine storyline" or gameplay itself.

So as far as giving them an award for their interactivity and user created content and sharing methods, yeah I think that's fair enough because their whole setup for it works pretty much perfectly and I've never encountered any problems with it. You can do pretty much anything you want from the screenshots and videos to the whole creation stuff, and sharing it across the entire base of users is a piece of piss. As far as console gaming goes nothing springs to mind that outdoes Halo 3 in those aspects comprehensively, so I don't really see why this is a problem. Unless of course you're the type of person who falls easily for trash journalism that uses misdirection and leaves out important bits of information!

[Roto13]

Halo 3 does some new stuff (though very little of it has to do with the actual gameplay) but none of it holds a candle to games like Portal, which actually take risks to do the important stuff differently.

[DK]

I am not disputing that. But the article from the Edge Website clearly states in gigantic letters that the award was for innovation with regards to interactivity, and the fact of the matter is Halo 3 does it better than or at least as good as any other console game you could care to mention with a game that, on average, reaches around 350,000 unique consoles playing it daily. There's no problem in that award, the only problem that is clearly visible is that Kotaku are fucking idiots. :monster:

[Roto13]

You're confusing polish and fluff for innovation.

[XxSephirothxX]

Sure, the Portal gun is a pretty innovative gameplay mechanic, but it's not going to shape the future development of an entire generation of online games. Halo 3 will.


Ultimately it is the integration and coherence of Halo 3’s online content that makes the game stand apart. From its Theater mode to Forge, and the way a party playing through Live can seamlessly manoeuvre between them, here is an experience that demonstrates an unparalleled understanding of the potential for console online play. Outside of the game, Bungie.net has been engineered to become a remarkable resource for Halo 3 stats and communities, providing life for the game even when your Xbox 360 is switched off. Halo 3, just as Halo 2 did before it, presents a roadmap for the way online will be integrated in videogames in the coming years.

If you play a shooter in three years that doesn't have Portal puzzles, you're not going to think "Wow, this game sure is lacking because it isn't Portal." But if you play a game that features online multiplayer, but is missing features such as Forge, Theatre mode, comprehensive matchmaking, a reliable party system, stat tracking, etc., it's going to be lacking in comparison to Halo 3. Simply put, it raises the bar for online multiplayer, and anyone who has spent a decent amount of time with it and other competitive online games can attest to that fact.

[DK]

Well go ahead and bring up some names of games that provide such a large userbase with a service that has virtually no failings with regards to user created content, sharing, stat tracking and partying in matchmaking that are better than it then. They have created a system for doing all of those things that 8 year olds can and probably do work out easily. Name some games that have matchmaking playlists that use game modes that have been created and submitted by the userbase itself and are now permenant fixtures played by thousands daily. Name some games that provide better interactivity, which is what this thing is all about, and then you can try and moan about how Halo 3 is a waste of time. Until then you just sound like a grumpy old man having a moan because something you don't like is being praised without actually giving a valid argument to why it's not as good as they say it is. So far all you've given us is a link to a shoddy piece of journalism that would shame the Daily Mail with it's blatant disregard for actual truth and valid information.

[Roto13]

You're still missing the point. All of that stuff is just extra crap. It's done well. So what? It's polished. Lots of time and money went into making it easy to use. The game, at it's core, is still just Halo 2.5.


Well go ahead and bring up some names of games that provide such a large userbase with a service that has virtually no failings with regards to user created content, sharing, stat tracking and partying in matchmaking that are better than it then. They have created a system for doing all of those things that 8 year olds can and probably do work out easily. Name some games that have matchmaking playlists that use game modes that have been created and submitted by the userbase itself and are now permenant fixtures played by thousands daily. Name some games that provide better interactivity, which is what this thing is all about, and then you can try and moan about how Halo 3 is a waste of time.


You're confusing polish and fluff for innovation.

[Shoeberto]

It's not fluff if it makes up a significant portion of the game's usage.

If all they were commending it for was being able to customize a Spartan for online play, yeah, that's fluff. Being a leader and changing the way online games are played is very different.

You seem to be separating the backend functions of a game from the gameplay itself which is pretty unfair.

(I don't even like Halo, personally, but I find it commendable how they pulled off their online. Now if only someone might pay attention to it *coughNintendo*)

[DK]

yeah, the award is for INNOVATION WITH REGARDS TO INTERACTIVITY.

It's got nothing to do with Gameplay. Nothing to do with story. Nothing to do with whether or not they've come up with some cool new game mechanics. It was given for making the best interactive experience for gamers with regards to what they can do with their game, what they can create, what they can build, what they can share, how they can do all this with their friends. No one gives a http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif if it is Halo 2.5 or not. That is not what this is about. I don't know how this could be made any clearer to you.

[Dreddz]

Let others have opinions, just because they don't agree with yours (or most gamers) doesn't mean they made a wrong decision. I personally think Rock Band should of won. I don't care about any of the games they have chosen but what Rock Band did seemed to further gaming more than the other titles.

[Roto13]

How the fuck is gameplay NOT a huge part, if not THE BIGGEST part, of the interactive part of a game?

[DK]

If they were going to define it that way then what is the point of even making a disparity in the first place? They may have well have just said "best game" because the gameplay is the most important part of a game. But it's clearly not an award with the merit based on the gameplay, because if it was things like Halo and Wii Fit wouldn't have been there. Just because you're choosing to be ignorant doesn't change anything said in the edge article or in this thread.

[Roto13]

It's not supposed to be the "best" anything. That's why Halo doesn't deserve to win. Yes it has a http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifload of features and they're implemented well, but none of them are particularly imaginative.

[I Took the Red Pill]

I would add my two cents but I am scared that if I do my opinion will be disregarded and a response already used will be regurgitated with the possibility of a few words moved around. What I do. :(

[Madame Adequate]

We hand out this accolade to the title released in the last 12 months that does most to further the creative culture of gaming

Yeah tbqh it seems pretty clear that what they're getting at here is the way Halo 3 allows players to create all sorts of content of their own, in various forms, and share it effortlessly with probably millions of others, who themselves require no effort to experience it. Pretty important. Yes, the Wii has changed what gets bought, but it's not done jack for fostering the creation of games content by gamers. Yes, Portal came up with a fantastic premise and mechanic and executed it damned near flawlessly, and is easily one of the best games in years, but it's not fostered a massive community of creation and interaction. Sorry, but DK and Azar know what's up here.

[Roto13]

Halo did NOT invent user created content and sharing user created content is only marginally easier than doing it in games like The Sims.

[DK]

It saves up to the last 30 games you play in campaign and in co-op, online, offline, anything in game data, which you can then edit, manipulate, and record and do whatever you want to. The video clips made from it are also extremely compact filesizes because of the system used. You can then share all of this crap with the entire userbase of the game. But apparently, this isn't innovative.

You're given regular updates of content for creation to build your own maps, gametypes or whatever you can think up right there on your own console with a creation system that takes about 3 seconds to figure out what you're doing, yet can lead up to making gametypes good enough for the game designers to add them to their matchmaking lists. But apparently, this also isn't innovative for console games.

These are two things I could be arsed to pick up on because they are the most obvious things for people who haven't played the game to understand. But there is plenty of crap that's already been gone over in the thread for people to make up their own minds if it's Edge or Roto talking out of their arse here. From what i've seen so far your problem isn't with Halo but that you don't like they way they've used the word "Innovation", but that is, as with most of the fail in this thread, your problem. I have faith that most people will be able to understand things this simple with relative ease.

[Roto13]

console games.

Well there's your problem. You think gaming is isolated to consoles, apparently. Just because you haven't seen it on a console before, that doesn't mean it's actually new.

[DK]

I don't know if anyone has told you this but PC games and Console games are different. The freedom and ability to do things in both games are different. Just because something has already been done on a PC doesn't mean anything. Being able to do things on a console that could only previously be done on a PC is innovation.

[Mirage]

hay guyz halo is just wolfenstein 3d with better graphics

[Roto13]

The fact that these things were already done on PCs means a lot. It means that Bungie took someone else's ideas, someone else's innovations, and implemented them slightly differently. It's no more innovative than the first PC game controller with an analog stick.

[Madame Adequate]

Halo did NOT invent user created content and sharing user created content is only marginally easier than doing it in games like The Sims.

Bullhockey. First, I never said they INVENTED it. Christ, talk about a strawman. Second, until Spore, I can't think of a single PC game that even approaches Halo's functionality and ease of use. If I want Sims content I have to go trawling through websites until I find something I want. If I want some game-changing mod for Civilization, I can't just click two buttons from the main menu and find a reliable, fast database.

So I'm actually going to take what DK said a step further and say not only does Halo 3 do something consoles haven't done before, but that it does it better than even PCs have ever done it.

Edit: To rant further. The way I find Sims 2 content is this: I see something cool mentioned or used on a Sims LJ legacy. I look through the post or comments, or ask myself, about it. Then, I go find it on a website. Then, I make sure it's the right thing, free of viruses, etc. Then, I download it. Then, I follow the installation instructions. Then, I can use it. Assuming it doesn't conflict with existing mods, that it's well-programmed, and it doesn't have some weird issue with my machine. Edit2: And assuming that the mod patch and game patch match up.

[Rye]

I can honestly say that I've never seen a game like Halo 3 where you are connected with every player in a way that you can share and create so much of the game with everyone who plays. It's absolutely the most interactive innovative game I've ever played. I've only played not even 20% of all the online features, and it's more satisfying than any other online game I've ever played, when it comes to interactivity.

And I'm not a FPS fangirl. I'm not even huge into the 360, I have like, 4 games for it. It's my unbiased opinion. ;o

[Slothy]

We hand out this accolade to the title released in the last 12 months that does most to further the creative culture of gaming

Yeah tbqh it seems pretty clear that what they're getting at here is the way Halo 3 allows players to create all sorts of content of their own, in various forms, and share it effortlessly with probably millions of others, who themselves require no effort to experience it.

If you interpret what they said that way then Halo is the only game meeting those criteria that was even in contention which makes absolutely no sense.

I read absolutely nothing in that article that makes me think that's how they meant it or that DK and others interpretations are correct. They worded the description poorly, yes, but they specifically say that the award is for those who "mark out new directions for the form." The form can also mean nothing but gameplay and game design or there would be no other games listed as in contention like I said before.

So basically, Edge feels that decent match making and Garry's Mod lite make for an innovative experience. I'd say they're wrong since the very idea that taking other peoples ideas and adapting them in an only slightly different medium is innovative is a complete joke. And anyone who actually believes that it's innovative is fooling themselves. It takes a lot less creative effort to take someone elses ideas and adapt them than to come up with something original. Something the Halo series hasn't been great at from the get go.

Now for my opinion on the award; it should have gone to Portal; a game that broke from FPS and puzzle game conventions to challenge gamers in new and creative ways like no one had done before. It was a triumph of concept, level and puzzle design the likes of which Bungie could only wish they had the talent to pull off. I'm not saying we should see a Portal gun in every game for the next 10 years by any stretch, but it would certainly be nice if more developers would get off their asses and try designing new and unique gameplay ideas for a change.

[Bolivar]

On one hand I want to say that this is vintage Roto stubbornly "going down with the ship" on an argument he already lost.

But I have to agree with him. DK, Azar, and others, have well formed and credible opinions, but I believe the masses, along with Edge, for many years now, have become way too over-excited about the HALO franchise as a whole (obviously).

All of these elements that have been listed, have all been apart of gaming for years now, PC and console. Reliable servers for multiplayer gaming on a large scale, obviously. Easy mapbuilding, obviously, has existed in simulation games even on consoles for probably decades now. Video saving and editing has been a huge part of PC gaming for quite some time.

All of this is common knowledge. The problem is that HALO didn't actually invent any of it. Incorporating ideas that have been around for over a decade into one supreme package is great for the consumer, but it isn't innovative. Neither is making it all accessible to casual gamers.

To put it bluntly, all HALO is, is an open-source FPS. If you think any of this is new, you have a lot of history to learn. To keep this short, all I'm going to say is this:

Half-Life.

[Madame Adequate]

1) Innovation =/= originality. Might as well say Casablanca's http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif because it ripped off the first film with a narrative.
2) HL is a PC game, and we've already established our rationale for why this is special for consoles.

What Halo 3 did was never done before and has changed videogames, at least on consoles, more than any of the other games have changed anything. Is innovative necessarily the EXACT perfect word to use? Maybe not. As Azar said, we're not going to think games are lacking if they're not Portal. And we're not going to think games are lacking if they don't have Euphoria to the same extent that bad matchmaking etc. will be inexcusable. In fact many's a time I've lamented the absence of theater in GTA. I've not lamented the absence of anything about GTA in Halo, really. And yeah, Wii Fit, I'm pretty sure the day will never come when I lament anything about that gimmick except it's popularity.

[DK]

but I believe the masses, along with Edge, for many years now, have become way too over-excited about the HALO franchise as a whole (obviously).

I used to be the most staunchly anti-Halo man around. Even though I have been converted to the Halo 3 matchmaking because it is great, I still think the campaign mode is pointless unless you're playing it with a friend/friends. The whole fun of Halo is doing it with friends, without them it's a mediocre FPS with a crap story and characters that I don't care about. But that doesn't take anything away from the complete package that it presents with regards to content, creation potential and service provided to a console audience. And yes the console distinction is very important. I don't see why that should be dismissed. There wasn't even a PC game up for the award so why should they even come into the discussion?

[Magixion]

To put this simply, everyone who is arguing against this obviously has not spent very much time with Halo 3. Even spending just a little bit of time in Forge, the theater, or even just checking out your stats on the Bungie website will see that Halo 3 definitely deserves this. To break this down, I will put out some questions and see if you can answer them.

In what other game can you modify maps with a group of friends and create an almost infinite amount of possibilities because you can change spawn rates, amount of items on each map, spawn areas, etc (remember, you and all your friends can be doing this at the same time, in the exact same session)?

In what other game is every kill, every achievement ever won, every type of weapon used for a kill, every death kept and maintained on a website that you can view at your leisure?

In what other game can you take a screenshot from any of your 30 previously played games and download a high-res version to use to do whatever on your computer?

In what other games is there a seemingly perfect party system that allows you to be matched up with others at your same skill level? (I am not saying the matchmaking is perfect, but the party system is spot on)

So, in conclusion, some aspects of Halo 3's systems might have been in other games, but in how many games have they been so spot on and polished almost to the point of perfection? Halo 3 has no doubt stepped up the bar in online console gaming and I can guarantee you, after spending some time with Halo 3, you -will- expect some of the innovations to make it into other games in the future.

[Roto13]

To put this simply, everyone who is arguing against this obviously has not spent very much time with Halo 3. Even spending just a little bit of time in Forge, the theater, or even just checking out your stats on the Bungie website will see that Halo 3 definitely deserves this. To break this down, I will put out some questions and see if you can answer them.

It was my JOB to know Halo 3. When I worked for Xbox, Halo 3 was the reason I was hired in the first place. Before the game came out, I had to do a training course specifically on Halo 3.


So, in conclusion, some aspects of Halo 3's systems might have been in other games, but in how many games have they been so spot on and polished almost to the point of perfection?

Again, polish is not innovation. Nobody's arguing that it doesn't do these things well.

[Magixion]

Perhaps I worded that wrong then, I meant that, yes some aspects were in other games, but Halo perfected them, but those weren't the innovations.

About the the innovations though.
My questions are still out there to be answered as well. Let's recap.

INNOVATION 1
In what other game can you modify maps with a group of friends and create an almost infinite amount of possibilities because you can change spawn rates, amount of items on each map, spawn areas, etc (remember, you and all your friends can be doing this at the same time, in the exact same session)?

INNOVATION 2
In what other game is every kill, every achievement ever won, every type of weapon used for a kill, every death kept and maintained on a website that you can view at your leisure?

INNOVATION 3
In what other game can you take a screenshot from any of your 30 previously played games and download a high-res version to use to do whatever on your computer?

INNOVATION 4 (ok so it was introduced in halo 2, but perfected in 3.)
In what other games is there a seemingly perfect party system that allows you to be matched up with others at your same skill level? (I am not saying the matchmaking is perfect, but the party system is spot on)

[Madame Adequate]

Again, polish is not innovation. Nobody's arguing that it doesn't do these things well.

Okay. Then please answer the following. I'm sure you'll have no trouble, even though you strictly avoided them in your previous post. I'm sure that's just an oversight.


In what other game can you modify maps with a group of friends and create an almost infinite amount of possibilities because you can change spawn rates, amount of items on each map, spawn areas, etc (remember, you and all your friends can be doing this at the same time, in the exact same session)?


In what other game is every kill, every achievement ever won, every type of weapon used for a kill, every death kept and maintained on a website that you can view at your leisure?


In what other game can you take a screenshot from any of your 30 previously played games and download a high-res version to use to do whatever on your computer?


In what other games is there a seemingly perfect party system that allows you to be matched up with others at your same skill level? (I am not saying the matchmaking is perfect, but the party system is spot on)

[Roto13]

In what other game can you modify maps with a group of friends and create an almost infinite amount of possibilities because you can change spawn rates, amount of items on each map, spawn areas, etc (remember, you and all your friends can be doing this at the same time, in the exact same session)?

Making it mutiplayer is not a big deal. You could do it to a lesser extent in lots of games, but let's just say Half-Life for the hell of it.


In what other game is every kill, every achievement ever won, every type of weapon used for a kill, every death kept and maintained on a website that you can view at your leisure?

Ooh, stat keeping. Taking the numbers that every online game ever has been keeping for years and adding more. What a leap.


In what other game can you take a screenshot from any of your 30 previously played games and download a high-res version to use to do whatever on your computer?

Screenshots? Seriously? You're going to try to convince me that screenshots are innovative? How about any game that allows you to save replays?


In what other games is there a seemingly perfect party system that allows you to be matched up with others at your same skill level? (I am not saying the matchmaking is perfect, but the party system is spot on)

Try every game that doesn't have http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifty matchmaking. Again, doing matchmaking better than other games have been doing for years is not innovative. It's fixing a problem. You might as well say precise controls are innovative, or pretty graphics.

Also:


On one hand I want to say that this is vintage Roto stubbornly "going down with the ship" on an argument he already lost.

Would you kindly kiss my ass?

[Magixion]

Christ, it's like I am getting hit by a semi that keeps reversing and pulling forward over my limp body. Not worth even replying.

But, to keep it fair, I will keep replying.

Tell me this, what did Portal do that was innovative? Create a gun that teleports you? Oh boy, never seen a game with a teleportation gun in it. (*cough*Unreal Tournament 3*cough*) Does this mean Unreal Tournament 3 deserves the Edge award as well?

[Roto13]

You mean this teleportation gun that works completely differently? The one that just zaps you to wherever you look instead of creating a new pathway for reuse? The one that flings marker on the floor like a frisbee instead of turning a wall or a ceiling into a door? That's pretty cool, but it's not a Portal gun.

[Magixion]

You mean this teleportation gun that works completely differently? The one that just zaps you to wherever you look instead of creating a new pathway for reuse? The one that flings marker on the floor like a frisbee instead of turning a wall or a ceiling into a door? That's pretty cool, but it's not a Portal gun.

Exactly. It is the same concept that Portal improved upon. The -exact- same argument you have been making. So, do I win yet?

[Roto13]

It's not the same concept, either. The concept behind the portal gun is using a combination of the portals and the physics engine to solve puzzles. The concept behind the UT3 teleportation gun is to get to a better place from which to shoot people. If anything, Portal is made less innovative by it's spiritula predecessor, Narbacular Drop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narbacular_Drop) (which, by the way, has it's own community of people who create and share levels), but play both games and you'll see that it's still handled completely differently. It's not just the same thing with a few additions and tweaks.

[Magixion]

It's not the same concept, either. The concept behind the portal gun is using a combination of the portals and the physics engine to solve puzzles. The concept behind the UT3 teleportation gun is to get to a better place from which to shoot people. If anything, Portal is made less innovative by it's spiritula predecessor, Narbacular Drop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narbacular_Drop) (which, by the way, has it's own community of people who create and share levels), but play both games and you'll see that it's still handled completely differently. It's not just the same thing with a few additions and tweaks.

...So basically Portal isn't innovative now? Hah.

(Also, hope you don't think this whole thread is a personal attack, I just call it a heated debate :))

[Roto13]

Portal is still very innovative because it does so much more with the portals and applies them in a brand new way. But it is true that it's not as innovative as a lot of people give it credit for. Though, to be fair, the team that made portal also made Narbacular Drop so it's not like they took what someone else had been doing for years and applied it to their own game.

[Slothy]

INNOVATION 1
In what other game can you modify maps with a group of friends and create an almost infinite amount of possibilities because you can change spawn rates, amount of items on each map, spawn areas, etc (remember, you and all your friends can be doing this at the same time, in the exact same session)?

It's been a while since I played it so I don't know if the community has included any of your standard deathmatch fare by now, but seriously, you've NEVER played Garry's Mod have you? It makes Halo 3's map customization and user created content seem like a complete joke in comparison.

[DMKA]

...gaming is at a standstill.

You're just now realizing this?

[Madame Adequate]

In what other game can you modify maps with a group of friends and create an almost infinite amount of possibilities because you can change spawn rates, amount of items on each map, spawn areas, etc (remember, you and all your friends can be doing this at the same time, in the exact same session)?

Making it mutiplayer is not a big deal. You could do it to a lesser extent in lots of games, but let's just say Half-Life for the hell of it.

I love how, when presented with something you can't dispute the truth of, you instead attack its importance and significance.



In what other game is every kill, every achievement ever won, every type of weapon used for a kill, every death kept and maintained on a website that you can view at your leisure?

Ooh, stat keeping. Taking the numbers that every online game ever has been keeping for years and adding more. What a leap.

I guess I can't argue too much with this one, it's true that Halo 3 just does what others have done with far more depth, completeness, and polish than anything else I've ever seen.



In what other game can you take a screenshot from any of your 30 previously played games and download a high-res version to use to do whatever on your computer?

Screenshots? Seriously? You're going to try to convince me that screenshots are innovative? How about any game that allows you to save replays?

On a console? That easily? When the award clearly is specifically for exactly the sort of thing screenshots encourage? Yeah. Also, please do tell me what other games have replay features as good and easy as Halo 3's, because it's an awesome feature and I'm highly interested in checking it out.



In what other games is there a seemingly perfect party system that allows you to be matched up with others at your same skill level? (I am not saying the matchmaking is perfect, but the party system is spot on)

Try every game that doesn't have http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifty matchmaking. Again, doing matchmaking better than other games have been doing for years is not innovative. It's fixing a problem. You might as well say precise controls are innovative, or pretty graphics.

Party system, son. Party system.


Also:


On one hand I want to say that this is vintage Roto stubbornly "going down with the ship" on an argument he already lost.

Would you kindly kiss my ass?

Ahem:


THE TRUTH HURTS, BIZNATCH!

Sorry, but he's right. Thread is full of more ignorant failure than anything I've seen in a long time.

But wait, he's not done yet!!!



...gaming is at a standstill.

You're just now realizing this?

Yeah, when we're arguing about which game of the last year was the most innovative, clearly there's nothing innovative going on.


INNOVATION 1
In what other game can you modify maps with a group of friends and create an almost infinite amount of possibilities because you can change spawn rates, amount of items on each map, spawn areas, etc (remember, you and all your friends can be doing this at the same time, in the exact same session)?

It's been a while since I played it so I don't know if the community has included any of your standard deathmatch fare by now, but seriously, you've NEVER played Garry's Mod have you? It makes Halo 3's map customization and user created content seem like a complete joke in comparison.

Please do tell me where I can get Garry's Mod for free, on a console, possessing the sheer effortless ease of use which Halo 3 has both in functionality and sharing. Because that would be awesome.

[KentaRawr!]

Can't we just agree that Halo has some cool things in it that Edge considers innovative and drop it? Sheesh!

[Magixion]

Can't we just agree that Halo has some cool things in it that Edge considers innovative and drop it? Sheesh!

If only it were that easy.. Some people just love to create controversy on the most minute of subjects.


It's been a while since I played it so I don't know if the community has included any of your standard deathmatch fare by now, but seriously, you've NEVER played Garry's Mod have you? It makes Halo 3's map customization and user created content seem like a complete joke in comparison.

Yes, just like Milf said, you must realize that they gave it to Halo 3 because it proves that all this can be done on a -console-! You must not have read the article either. Silly kid.

[Roto13]

Also:


On one hand I want to say that this is vintage Roto stubbornly "going down with the ship" on an argument he already lost.

Would you kindly kiss my ass?

Ahem:


THE TRUTH HURTS, BIZNATCH!

I had replies for most of your comments, but if this is the way you're going to behave (taking me defending myself from yet another one of Bolivar's idiotic personal attacks, taking something else that was obviously a joke, and being a complete douchebag with the) then smurf you. Of course the guy who broke into tears at that cheesy Halo 3 commercial is going to defend it to the death. If Edge had given it an award for being the best racing game of the year, you'd be here with just as much fury.

I will say one thing, though. Taking features that have been on PCs for years and applying them to console's is not innovative. The original Xbox was not innovative for having a hard drive. The PS1 was not innovative for having 3D graphics. Halo is not innovative for having decent matchmaking, a level editor, a community that shares their own created content, or anything else.

[KentaRawr!]

Can't we just agree that Halo has some cool things in it that Edge considers innovative and drop it? Sheesh!

If only it were that easy.. Some people just love to create controversy on the most minute of subjects.

Aren't you part of the debate yourself? o_O

[Magixion]

Also:


On one hand I want to say that this is vintage Roto stubbornly "going down with the ship" on an argument he already lost.

Would you kindly kiss my ass?Ahem:


THE TRUTH HURTS, BIZNATCH!I had replies for most of your comments, but if this is the way you're going to behave (taking me defending myself from yet another one of Bolivar's idiotic personal attacks, taking something else that was obviously a joke, and being a complete douchebag with the) then smurf you. Of course the guy who broke into tears at that cheesy Halo 3 commercial is going to defend it to the death. If Edge had given it an award for being the best racing game of the year, you'd be here with just as much fury.

I will say one thing, though. Taking features that have been on PCs for years and applying them to console's is not innovative. The original Xbox was not innovative for having a hard drive. The PS1 was not innovative for having 3D graphics. Halo is not innovative for having decent matchmaking, a level editor, a community that shares their own created content, or anything else.

in·no·va·tion http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png /ˌɪnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngəˈveɪhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciationuh-vey-shuhhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn] Pronunciation Key –noun 1.something new or different introduced
Read the definition of innovation. Halo 3 introduced something different to consoles. End of story. Regardless of your bias towards hating Halo 3.


Aren't you part of the debate yourself? o_O

Yes, I am, but I am willing to put everything aside and say Halo 3 has some cool things Edge considers innovative, but clearly the others on this thread are not.

[KentaRawr!]

Whatever you say. :rolleyes2

[Madame Adequate]

Of course the guy who broke into tears at that cheesy Halo 3 commercial is going to defend it to the death.

Roh hoh hoh hoh! Someone get me the ointment, I've been burned! By someone who brought something unbelievably unrelated in, misrepresented it entirely, and clearly has no response to the actual points made!

So, when you make a joke, it's all fine and dandy. When someone else does, you better watch out, Roto's about? And he'll misrepesent you to high heavens? I was going to say "maybe it's not deliberate" but I don't see how the monumental levels of fail and misrepresentation in this thread could be anything other than wilful.

Whatever, man. We've tried. You just keep getting more and more desperate as your hard head is pounded upon by our obvious correctness, until you're reduced to "I'm not going to argue with a BABY so I'm taking my ball and going HOME" because you evidently have no response to our points.

[Yar]

Can't we just agree that Halo has some cool things in it that Edge considers innovative and drop it? Sheesh!

Oh, to be young and naïve. :rolleyes2

NO! This is the internet! There is not time for agreement! :p

[Slothy]

Yes, just like Milf said, you must realize that they gave it to Halo 3 because it proves that all this can be done on a -console-! You must not have read the article either. Silly kid.

I did read the article and they didn't bring anything overly innovative to gaming. Which was my interpretation of how they described the award; as something that brings something innovative to gamind. Not consoles. Just because they did it first on a console (to my knowledge) doesn't negate the fact that it was done before. That'd be like Wolfenstein 3D being released, and then someone going and making an FPS for the SNES immediately after (that isn't even as good as the original game) and being hailed as the creators of the FPS genre. It's patently rediculous.

And for the record, I don't appreciate being called a "silly kid" by someone who can't even bother to check the age in my profile. Forget the fact that I have a University degree, live on my own, work full time, and am engaged to be married.

[Dreddz]

This thread has turned pretty ugly now. Whats with you lot? Most people in this thread are being very ignorant of other peoples opinions. Both sides are trying to discredit the other game which is silly because I think every game in this thread has innovated in small ways.

But I'll say this. What Halo 3 has done will effect gaming more than Portal. We'll see developers copy various features from the game in future titles so years from now we'll have features that are are mandatory in all games and can say it stemmed from Halo 3. Nobody is trying to copy Portal so it really hasn't changed gaming at all. In that regards, Halo 3 deserves the award more than Portal. But why does it always come down to Portal vs Halo 3. Rock Band should of won.

[Slothy]

This thread has turned pretty ugly now. Whats with you lot? Most people in this thread are being very ignorant of other peoples opinions. Both sides are trying to discredit the other game which is silly because I think every game in this thread has innovated in small ways.

I think many of us are managing to be a lot calmer than it would seem over the internet. It's a pretty heated discussion that's stemming from a pretty ambiguous description of what an award was actually given out for, and exactly what some people consider innovation in gaming.

For what it's worth, I do agree with you to an extent that Halo 3 will have more of an impact on games going forward, though I don't think it was the most innovative title in that list.

I'm not really sure why you think Rock Band should have won though outside of DLC. I admit that they do DLC at a faster pace than pretty much any company around, but then, I'd imagine it takes a much smaller amount of time and fewer people for them to create a track in Rock Band and play test it than it would take a company like Valve to create and play test new maps or weapons in TF2 for example. I'm not really trying to take anything away from the rapid release pace or quality of Rock Bands DLC though, even if I didn't like the game in general. It's always impressed me that they get the new songs out as fast as they do.

[Madame Adequate]

I did read the article and they didn't bring anything overly innovative to gaming. Which was my interpretation of how they described the award; as something that brings something innovative to gamind. Not consoles. Just because they did it first on a console (to my knowledge) doesn't negate the fact that it was done before. That'd be like Wolfenstein 3D being released, and then someone going and making an FPS for the SNES immediately after (that isn't even as good as the original game) and being hailed as the creators of the FPS genre. It's patently rediculous.

I understand where you're coming from with this argument. However, I think that it's safe to say that Halo 3 is going to have a significant effect on games in the future. I'm not honestly sure that any game on that list did anything particularly new, they just did old things better (ie Halo 3 combined the best of online and made all of it even better; Portal took Narbacular Drop and made it better; Rock Band took Guitar Hero and amped it up, etc.) - so in my eyes, giving the award to the game which is going to have the most significant impact on games in the future is probably fair.


Rock Band should of won.

Not picking holes, but I'm genuinely interested, what do you feel Rock Band did to deserve this award? (Disclaimer: I've never played Rock Band.)

[Magixion]

And for the record, I don't appreciate being called a "silly kid" by someone who can't even bother to check the age in my profile. Forget the fact that I have a University degree, live on my own, work full time, and am engaged to be married.

Then hopefully you will take my apology as I got caught up in the debate a bit.

To continue about the topic though, I can understand why some people say Halo didn't do anything specifically new, but added in new elements to a game mechanic or feature that had been done before it. But, as Milf said also, most all of the games mentioned did the exact same thing. I just believe Halo 3 will have the largest impact on gaming in the future and did the most things right.

[Yar]

Rock Band should of won.

Not picking holes, but I'm genuinely interested, what do you feel Rock Band did to deserve this award? (Disclaimer: I've never played Rock Band.)

Ripped of Guitar Hero, which, in turn, ripped off actually playing a guitar. :P

[Lawr]

If you'd let me but in for a few seconds of your life please.


The fact that Halo 3 is going to be the most influential for console gaming than any other game on that list is the definition of innovation to me.

[KentaRawr!]

It also makes me sad.

But that's all I'm saying on the matter. >_>

[Bolivar]

(taking me defending myself from yet another one of Bolivar's idiotic personal attacks

Are you aware of the definition of "irony"?


Of course the guy who broke into tears at that cheesy Halo 3 commercial is going to defend it to the death.


If Edge had given it an award for being the best racing game of the year, you'd be here with just as much fury.

Anyway,


Is innovative necessarily the EXACT perfect word to use? Maybe not.

That's about my point, bra.


The fact that Halo 3 is going to be the most influential for console gaming than any other game on that list is the definition of innovation to me.

The Backstreet Boys were sure as hell influential for all the music that dominated radio for quite a few years, but that doesn't mean it was innovative.

In the strict sense of the word which Magixion introduced to this thread, influence, or impact thereafter, has nothing to do with innovation, although I'm sure most of us consider it an important aspect in our own personal meaning of the word.

I'm not saying HALO brought absolutely nothing new to the table and could never possibly be supported by any competent argument to actually be so, but for the aforementioned definition, I would rather see Portal at the top of the list, or Rock Band, especially since it is in regard to interactivity. But honestly:

1) I do seem to remember a program for Half-Life in which one player could alter the map and game settings at the same time others are playing, so I'm pretty sure they could have more than one person do it.

2) There's alot of awesome sites for specific servers of FPS and other games in which an astonishing multitude of statistics are displayed, even bullets fired for each weapon, accuracy with specific guns, and ladders for what's the most popular weapon, etc. regulatorsrealm.com for counter-strike was the server/site I used specifically, we're talkin 3-4 years ago now.

3) I'm not sure about that screenshot/past 30 games issue, but that doesn't mean a predecessor doesn't exist.

4) party matching has been essential to clan ladders for quite some time now, and not just for the clan overall.

^ Those are my answers to the 4 questions that Magixion raised.


This thread has turned pretty ugly now. Whats with you lot? Most people in this thread are being very ignorant of other peoples opinions. Both sides are trying to discredit the other game which is silly because I think every game in this thread has innovated in small ways.

Dreddz, get the hell out of here with that pansy garbage, I've had enough of your nonsense as it is.

[/sarcasm]

I think MILF, Magixion, Azar, DK and others on the pro-H3 side, as well as Vivi22 and others on the opposition have all articulated their ideas well and in a courteous manner, just a little unwarranted attacks have disrupted it a little. But overall I think we can all say that we can walk away from this having learned a little we didn't know about before.

[/Mr. Rogers]

[DK]

The Backstreet Boys were sure as hell influential for all the music that dominated radio for quite a few years, but that doesn't mean it was innovative.

In the strict sense of the word which Magixion introduced to this thread, influence, or impact thereafter, has nothing to do with innovation, although I'm sure most of us consider it an important aspect in our own personal meaning of the word.


This still comes off like you're confusing innovation for originality. Innovation is more like bringing something to the table that is a new take on an idea brought about through thinking, experimentation and growth, rather than something entirely new altogether. It remains a fact that Halo 3 put a buttload of ideas together in one game in an extremely functional and easy to use way on a format that it has never been achieved at the scale Halo 3 does it at before. That, to me, is innovation.

[Fonzie]

i think Roto is a pretty cool guy. eh is ignorant and doesn't afraid of anything

[KentaRawr!]

i think Roto is a pretty cool guy. eh is ignorant and doesn't afraid of anything

I hate that fad. I know its terror, as I saw the very first topic it was in.

[ReloadPsi]

Wii Fit was up for an innovation award? A video game that supposedly keeps you fit but actually doesn't isn't innovative, just look at Dance Dance Revolution... been out for years! I still can't believe it wasn't an April Fool's joke!

[KentaRawr!]

In an Interview with Miyamoto, he said it wasn't supposed to keep you fit, but rather make you aware of your health so you'd feel more obligated to get fit. Plus it had some nice games, like skiing. :)

[Madame Adequate]

Halo 3 wins Edge Award for Interactive Innovation , Halo 3 Xbox 360 News | GamesRadar (http://www.gamesradar.com/xbox360/halo-3/news/halo-3-wins-edge-award-for-interactive-innovation-/a-200808111674231028/g-2005000000000000000350)

Has Bungie's acceptance and a comment from Edge's deputy editor which yeah basically says that what DK said in the first place, and some of us have backed up, has been an accurate reading of Edge's intentions. :cool:

[unfinished fantasy]

anyone who enjoys fps game on console is not worth arguing against due to a simple fact you can easily pwn them with unchallenged precision of mouse. use the right tool for the right job.

[Magixion]

anyone who enjoys fps game on console is not worth arguing against due to a simple fact you can easily pwn them with unchallenged precision of mouse. use the right tool for the right job.

I love ignorant statements, don't you guys?

Please, we just finished up the discussion on this topic (for the most part), how about you stay on topic and not bring up useless B.S. to start some sort of argument about mouse and keyboard vs. controller.

[Psychotic]

GameVee.com | Halo 3 Video | XBox 360 Video | Best Betrayal in the World (http://www.gamevee.com/viewVideo/Halo_3/XBox_360/Best_Betrayal_in_the_World/465596)

:monster:

[Fonzie]

GameVee.com | Halo 3 Video | XBox 360 Video | Best Betrayal in the World (http://www.gamevee.com/viewVideo/Halo_3/XBox_360/Best_Betrayal_in_the_World/465596)

:monster:

Paul, post that .gif of you humping my dead, sexy corpse.

[unfinished fantasy]

I love ignorant statements, don't you guys?it's not ignorant bs, it's a fact that keyboard & mouse allows far greater (/laughably better) control in fps games. Therefor it's pretty valid argument against taking console-fps players seriously on the matter of fps gameplay and various aspects of it.

[Madame Adequate]

I love ignorant statements, don't you guys?it's not ignorant bs, it's a fact that keyboard & mouse allows far greater (/laughably better) control in fps games. Therefor it's pretty valid argument against taking console-fps players seriously on the matter of fps gameplay and various aspects of it.

Get out of Estonia I don't want you shaming my heritage with your ignorant statements.

[DK]

hahahahahahhahahaahahah

[DK]

aahahahhahahahaha

[DK]

aahahahhahahaha

[unfinished fantasy]

Get out of Estonia I don't want you shaming my heritage with your ignorant statements.console owners playing this video game genre like handicaps - something to be proud of! As far as Estonia is concerned - we still do have at least a few thousand who know how to play fps correctly.

[Madame Adequate]

So did Georgia.

[Lawr]

I think MILF, Magixion, Azar, DK and others on the pro-H3 side, as well as Vivi22 and others on the opposition have all articulated their ideas well and in a courteous manner, just a little unwarranted attacks have disrupted it a little.

Sorry. I'll try to tone it down next time. :(

[Bolivar]

The Backstreet Boys were sure as hell influential for all the music that dominated radio for quite a few years, but that doesn't mean it was innovative.

In the strict sense of the word which Magixion introduced to this thread, influence, or impact thereafter, has nothing to do with innovation, although I'm sure most of us consider it an important aspect in our own personal meaning of the word.


This still comes off like you're confusing innovation for originality. Innovation is more like bringing something to the table that is a new take on an idea brought about through thinking, experimentation and growth, rather than something entirely new altogether. It remains a fact that Halo 3 put a buttload of ideas together in one game in an extremely functional and easy to use way on a format that it has never been achieved at the scale Halo 3 does it at before. That, to me, is innovation.

That's why I will concede that it has brought some new and good stuff to the table.


it's not ignorant bs, it's a fact that keyboard & mouse allows far greater (/laughably better) control in fps games. Therefor it's pretty valid argument against taking console-fps players seriously on the matter of fps gameplay and various aspects of it.

When I played Unreal Tournament III for the ps3, I was glad as hell that they allowed for keyboard & mouse functionality. But after a while I saw that the controller can be fun, too, and I actually prefer it sometimes. I do actually believe most controller-FPS's suck, but when it's done right, it's done right.

[KentaRawr!]

I love ignorant statements, don't you guys?it's not ignorant bs, it's a fact that keyboard & mouse allows far greater (/laughably better) control in fps games. Therefor it's pretty valid argument against taking console-fps players seriously on the matter of fps gameplay and various aspects of it.

What controller you use is completely irrelevant.

[Madame Adequate]

When I played Unreal Tournament III for the ps3, I was glad as hell that they allowed for keyboard & mouse functionality. But after a while I saw that the controller can be fun, too, and I actually prefer it sometimes. I do actually believe most controller-FPS's suck, but when it's done right, it's done right.

To respond more seriously to the charge that there's something wrong with console FPSes - that might have been true in 1996. It stopped being true in 1997 when Goldeneye came out, and demonstrated that console FPS games could be sublimely good. Perfect Dark, Halo, TimeSplitters - all fantastic console FPS. Anyone who discounts any of them because you use a controller instead of a mouse and keyboard is just missing out on some truly brilliant games, tbh.

[Yew-Yevon]

god... the games been out this long and there Still overrating it?!?

[Bolivar]

When I played Unreal Tournament III for the ps3, I was glad as hell that they allowed for keyboard & mouse functionality. But after a while I saw that the controller can be fun, too, and I actually prefer it sometimes. I do actually believe most controller-FPS's suck, but when it's done right, it's done right.

To respond more seriously to the charge that there's something wrong with console FPSes - that might have been true in 1996. It stopped being true in 1997 when Goldeneye came out, and demonstrated that console FPS games could be sublimely good. Perfect Dark, Halo, TimeSplitters - all fantastic console FPS. Anyone who discounts any of them because you use a controller instead of a mouse and keyboard is just missing out on some truly brilliant games, tbh.

I wholeheartedly agree, and my point was that in some cases the controller can be more fun. But after you get real deep into PC FPS (counter-strike for me) it's very hard to go back, especially nowadays, personally.

[Madame Adequate]

god... the games been out this long and there Still overrating it?!?

The legions of fans, massive critical acclaim for all three games, gigantic sales, enduring legacy of the series, and the continuing demand for more games in the Halo universe all combine to suggest that it's probably doin it rite.