I'm really sick

[arcanedude34]

of people who criticize TA for having 'too kiddy' of a plot. Imo, TA has a much darker plot than Tactics. What people fail to realize is that TA is the only game where the bad guy wins.

In FFTA, you play the villain. You are the dark side. Congratulations. Let's look back at some of my favorite Villains in FF history, shall we?

Fiends- Wanted to destroy the world by instinct (I guess)
Dark Cloud- Same deal^
Zeromus- Wants to wipe out the Earth's population so the moonmen can inhabit the Blue Planet
Kefka- Wants to wipe out the population (and eventually the owlrd) because he feels there's no point to existance
Sephy- WILL get what he wants, how many innocent people die in the meantime is no concern of his
Kuja- Destroys TWO worlds to take everyone with him when he dies
Seymour- Wants to destroy the world so he can save others from life (which he feels is nothing but endless torment)
Marche- Wants to destroy the world (against all the wishes of everyone except him) just because he doesn't feel right in the new world

You get the picture. TA, in my eyes, is just about the exact same story from FFI from the villain's point of view. Think about it- in I a foreign race (Fiends in I/people from St. Ivalice in TA) start to show up, start messin' w/ the crystals in order to wipe out the population of the planet (TA to make way for the 'real' Ivalice inhabitants/FFI for the lulz I guess). If you look at it this way, the Totema from TA are, in fact the Light Warriors of TA, only this time, they fail to protect the crystals. This would also mean the Mewt is, in fact, the hero of TA, as it he who created the utopian world, and is the only thing that sustains it. Only in THIS version of the story, the villain (Marche) succeeds in convincing Mewt that he is on the wrong path. Then the world is destroyed, despite the fact that Marche is the only one that wants to go home.

You may argue that his motives are what make him a hero, but in the end, he sows destruction in Ivalice, causes everyone to have to return home when they don't want to just for personal desire. This makes TA the only FF you play as the villain, and the only FF in which the villain wins.

Discuss.

[NeoCracker]

That world isn't real though. While no one wants to go home, they are simply wanting to live in a fake reality.

Marche is the one who sees this as wrong, and convinces Mewt that they shoudl return to the real world, as this world is nothing but an illusion.

Mrche is hardly the bad guy here. :p

[arcanedude34]

But he is. If the story was told through a neutral perspective, at the very least it could be said that Marche and Mewt are neither hero nor villain, but two soldiers on opposing sides with opposing ideals. Marche's ideals just happen to involve ruining all of his friends' lives while he's at it.

I also find it hard to believe that Ivalice isn't real. It's real enough that you can live and die there. Just because it's artificially made deosn't make it any less real.

[sdm42393]

That world isn't real though. While no one wants to go home, they are simply wanting to live in a fake reality.

Marche is the one who sees this as wrong, and convinces Mewt that they shoudl return to the real world, as this world is nothing but an illusion.

Mrche is hardly the bad guy here. :p

Couldn't you say that would justify Seymour's intention for being a villain.

[Roto13]

You can't really say Marche is the villain unless you think sucking people into a fake world and keeping them there regardless of what they want is a good thing. (I know most of them wanted to stay, but Marche didn't, and it's not like he had a lot of choice in the matter.) Plus, Mewt didn't exactly treat his people well, with his crazy laws that only exist to torment people.

[sdm42393]

My question is why anybody would still want to be friends with Marche by the end of the game?

[Roto13]

Because he only wanted to go home. He was forced to go there against his will, and if it happened to me I'd probably have done the same thing.

[arcanedude34]

Yea but then he forced everyone else to go home even though they made it abundantly clear that they wanted to stay. What's worse, one's suffering or literally everyone else suffering? I'm just saying that a hero, by definition, works towards the common interests of the people and a villain works towards a self-serving goal, which he often believes to be for the greater good (again, Seymour, Kefka)

Which of the two categories do you think Marche falls under?

[Roto13]

What wasn't self-serving about Mewt's goals? Or Ritz's or Doned's for that matter? They were running from reality. They were there because they were too wussy for reality.

[sdm42393]

Maybe they were all evil. O_O

[Roto13]

I don't think any of the kids were evil, really. :P Just weak.

[ljkkjlcm9]

I consider Marche the hero because the others were running from reality, while he was trying to face it dead on. You can't live in a fantasy forever, and Marche knew that and that they had to get back to the real world. How long can you live a complete lie before it starts getting to you? Try it sometime... it doesn't end up too well...

THE JACKEL

[sdm42393]

I dunno. Living in a Final Fantasy world would be pretty awesome, I could care less what reality I'm leaving.

[Roogle]

Marche as a villain would hold greater weight if the characters and the player knew that Ivalice was a parallel world rather than a fantastic world.

[NeoCracker]

That world isn't real though. While no one wants to go home, they are simply wanting to live in a fake reality.

Marche is the one who sees this as wrong, and convinces Mewt that they shoudl return to the real world, as this world is nothing but an illusion.

Mrche is hardly the bad guy here. :p

Couldn't you say that would justify Seymour's intention for being a villain.

Um, Seymour was trying to save the world from suffering by killing them all.

He had good intentions, but in the end he was also just running from Reality, because he couldn't face it.

They aren't really all that comparable. :p

[arcanedude34]

That world is in a constant cycle of death though. While no one wants to die, they are simply wanting to live in a painful existance.

Seymour is the one who sees this as wrong, and tries to convince everyone that they should end it all, as this world is nothing but an endless cycle of pain and death.

Seymour is hardly the bad guy here.

See how easy it is to compare Marche and Seymour? Either Marche is a bad guy, or Seymour is a good guy. No matter how good Marche's intentions were, no matter how much he thought that you need to live in reality to be a good person (which apparently Square did a good enough job of convincing most people who played the game as well) he was still working against his friends wishes, despite their protests, and their attempting to kill him. He was working towards a self-serving goal that he "thought" was best for everyone, and didn't mind if that meant going against his friends wishes.

[Wolf Kanno]

That world is in a constant cycle of death though. While no one wants to die, they are simply wanting to live in a painful existance.

Seymour is the one who sees this as wrong, and tries to convince everyone that they should end it all, as this world is nothing but an endless cycle of pain and death.

Seymour is hardly the bad guy here.

See how easy it is to compare Marche and Seymour? Either Marche is a bad guy, or Seymour is a good guy. No matter how good Marche's intentions were, no matter how much he thought that you need to live in reality to be a good person (which apparently Square did a good enough job of convincing most people who played the game as well) he was still working against his friends wishes, despite their protests, and their attempting to kill him. He was working towards a self-serving goal that he "thought" was best for everyone, and didn't mind if that meant going against his friends wishes.

The problem is that only Marche could ever exist in Ivalice and be sane. Marche was dragged their unexpectedly and unlike the others, he had no reason to be there. He gained very little unlike the others. The others wished to stay so they could run from their real problems, Marche had nothing to run from. I would also like to point out that Marche really gains little from returning home. Its not like his life is any better than the others.

Yes Marche went against his friends wishes but its because there wishes were unhealthy for their psyches. They all rather believe in an illusion rather than stand strong and face reality. What is healthy and good about that? Its like stopping a friend from killing themselves. Are you the good guy or the bad guy?

[NeoCracker]

That world is in a constant cycle of death though. While no one wants to die, they are simply wanting to live in a painful existance.

Seymour is the one who sees this as wrong, and tries to convince everyone that they should end it all, as this world is nothing but an endless cycle of pain and death.

Seymour is hardly the bad guy here.

See how easy it is to compare Marche and Seymour? Either Marche is a bad guy, or Seymour is a good guy. No matter how good Marche's intentions were, no matter how much he thought that you need to live in reality to be a good person (which apparently Square did a good enough job of convincing most people who played the game as well) he was still working against his friends wishes, despite their protests, and their attempting to kill him. He was working towards a self-serving goal that he "thought" was best for everyone, and didn't mind if that meant going against his friends wishes.

The problem is that only Marche could ever exist in Ivalice and be sane. Marche was dragged their unexpectedly and unlike the others, he had no reason to be there. He gained very little unlike the others. The others wished to stay so they could run from their real problems, Marche had nothing to run from. I would also like to point out that Marche really gains little from returning home. Its not like his life is any better than the others.

Yes Marche went against his friends wishes but its because there wishes were unhealthy for their psyches. They all rather believe in an illusion rather than stand strong and face reality. What is healthy and good about that? Its like stopping a friend from killing themselves. Are you the good guy or the bad guy?

Let us not forget Symore TRIED TO KILL ALL OF HUMANITY!

Marche simply made his friends face the truth and stop running from reality, which is the polar opposite of whats Seymore was doing, trying to run from reality.

[arcanedude34]

That world is in a constant cycle of death though. While no one wants to die, they are simply wanting to live in a painful existance.

Seymour is the one who sees this as wrong, and tries to convince everyone that they should end it all, as this world is nothing but an endless cycle of pain and death.

Seymour is hardly the bad guy here.

See how easy it is to compare Marche and Seymour? Either Marche is a bad guy, or Seymour is a good guy. No matter how good Marche's intentions were, no matter how much he thought that you need to live in reality to be a good person (which apparently Square did a good enough job of convincing most people who played the game as well) he was still working against his friends wishes, despite their protests, and their attempting to kill him. He was working towards a self-serving goal that he "thought" was best for everyone, and didn't mind if that meant going against his friends wishes.

The problem is that only Marche could ever exist in Ivalice and be sane. Marche was dragged their unexpectedly and unlike the others, he had no reason to be there. He gained very little unlike the others. The others wished to stay so they could run from their real problems, Marche had nothing to run from. I would also like to point out that Marche really gains little from returning home. Its not like his life is any better than the others.

Yes Marche went against his friends wishes but its because there wishes were unhealthy for their psyches. They all rather believe in an illusion rather than stand strong and face reality. What is healthy and good about that? Its like stopping a friend from killing themselves. Are you the good guy or the bad guy?

And what is so wrong about escaping from reality? Isn't that what movies, books, religion, and videos games are for? It's like some guy coming in and saying "No, you can't read a fantasy book! You have to read reference books! Yu want to play Final Fantasy? No! Play a stupid simulation game (but take out the fun aspect of simulation games)"

Who cares what the "real" world is, if everyone prefers living in the fantasy world, then what's wrong with that? If they stay there, that that'll become the new "real" world to anyone who lives there. I'm just saying that Marche has little to no reason for what he does, other than thinking that the only way things can be "right" is for everyone to return the the "real" world, which makes no sense.

[Wolf Kanno]

There's a distinct difference between escaping from reality for a little while by playing a game or reading a book and escaping reality to the point where escapism becomes the new reality. Let's say we have a WoW addict who decides to exclude all life so they can continually play nothing but WoW. Is that person healthy or not?

The Ivalice of TA never existed, it was a fake world held together by one person's desire to escape. He not only chose to escape reality, he changed reality itself. Its not like he just whisked them all to a fantasy world, he changed the very fabric of reality transforming St. Ivalice and all its inhabitants into Ivalice and its people. Some people may have preferred their old lives in the real world. Not only did he change their very lives, he stripped them of their free will to choose and personally I find that unacceptable.

Marche was the only one who wanted to go home but as the story progresses we see how escapism has a very unhealthy affect on all of them. The problem with escapism, is that you cannot grow from it. Life is tough, just escape and pretend everything is alright? What is healthy about that choice. It leads to more despair down the road.

[arcanedude34]

Well what would have happened if they all stayed in fantasy Ivalice? They would have happily lived with their clans until they died or retired. And Marche changes reality back because he doesn't like the new one as much too, so he's the same way.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well what would have happened if they all stayed in fantasy Ivalice? They would have happily lived with their clans until they died or retired. And Marche changes reality back because he doesn't like the new one as much too, so he's the same way.


I'm not saying Marche is completely good here, I'm just pointing out that Mewt and the others motives are just as selfish and despicable as Marche is. Mewt and the others purposely changed the lives of thousands of people just so they can all escape from their real lives. Marche ends the existence (or perhaps not if you read Skyblade's analysis) of a fantasy world so he can restore the original world and saves his friends from themselves.

Its the reason I adore Matsuno's works, cause all his stories are pretty ambiguous and in a world where every RPG is a cookie cutter "Good vs. Evil" its nice to have a story that makes you think. ;)

[arcanedude34]

Haha yeah. Well, that's just my take on it, mostly cuz it's also the only FF where the hero's intentions make little to no sense to me, which again goes to Matsuno's "shades-of-grey" style stories.

[HighPriestFuneral]

Wow, you know... I never thought about it that way. That's quite impressive that you came up with that conclusion. The role of Marche almost lulls one into a self righteous state of mind. Though when you get to the core, Mewt is the hero, who had given people a life that is endlessly enjoyable, while Marche is the self-centered villian who only wants to go home, despite all of the objections from his closest friends and family. Ivalice in TA, is not a "false" world. Mewt's wish managed to turn all of the world into such. Is it any surprise that the Totema's (also known as the Lucavi...) would fight alongside the one who wishes to destroy the world as it is known to bring it back to it's previous state? Of course there is a very dark shade of grey over this...

For those familiar with Death Note... there are tons of debates about who was "right" and who was "wrong" in their actions.... Light, L, Near, and Mello all fall into shades of grey. No one will agree that they were completely evil, but they were all very self righteous. Mewt was very weak minded, that is why he allowed Marche to talk down his ideals and bring an end to the "fantasy". Though it was maintained only by Li-Grim, it was maintained, and may have been maintained indefinitely had it not been for a boy's yearning to return to the "real world". This really does make FFTA have a much darker story... I wonder why the makers didn't capatilize on this, it may have been recieved a bit better.

[arcanedude34]

I agree that Square could have made the game a bit more thought-provoking by having Marche's actions cast into doubt in Marche's and the player's eyes a bit more (I think the closest thing to it is when he says something like "sometimes I'm not even sure I want to go home" but immediately discontinues this thought)

[Bolivar]

I like arcanedude's analysis of the plot, at the end of the day, Marche is the dude trying to destroy the world, so I see where it's going with the parallels to other FF villains. And I also have to agree that FFTA's story gets undervalued alot.

I just can't agree with the statement it's "much darker than FFT". That's craaaazy rediculous. FFTA, at the end of the day, is still a kid's story, with some serious moral/philosophical questions posed to the player. Ivalice in FFT was just straight up grimey. People got done in left and right, murder was a daily routine.

[Wolf Kanno]

I like arcanedude's analysis of the plot, at the end of the day, Marche is the dude trying to destroy the world, so I see where it's going with the parallels to other FF villains. And I also have to agree that FFTA's story gets undervalued alot.

I just can't agree with the statement it's "much darker than FFT". That's craaaazy rediculous. FFTA, at the end of the day, is still a kid's story, with some serious moral/philosophical questions posed to the player. Ivalice in FFT was just straight up grimey. People got done in left and right, murder was a daily routine.

Don't forget that FFT doesn't exactly have a happy ending for everyone as well. Ramza and Alma make it out but at the cost of being outlaws. Delita sells the last bit of his soul for power and Olan is imprisoned. Not to mention that its hard to say if Ivalice turned out for the better with Delita as the ruler. "History is written by the winners".

I found FFTA to be much more mature than most would give it but its definetly not as dark and grim as FFT and Vagrant Story.

[feioncastor]

In Final Fantasy Tactics, isn't the ultimate bad guy prettymuch Jesus? I mean, the plot of Final Fantasy Tactics is to reveal that the church is actually rather demonic, and not holy at all, and their patron saint is evil, and incidently, named after a model of Nissan.

I don't think that FFTA had a villain named Tercel or Impreza.

I do agree that FFTA isn't a classic children's story. In fact, it's a story that most chilren would not want to hear. The characters are children, but that doesn't make it a childish story.

However, comparing the central plot of FFTA to that of FFT, it becomes apparent that if you were to try and explain either scenario to a child, you'd have more luck with FFTA. Imagine trying to unwind the simple details of Ivalice after the 50 years war. And then factor in the appearence of Lucavi and eventual descent into 'hell'. It's a lot more complex than a boy's imagination becoming reality and taking over the world.