Which game best personified the definition of "Fantasy"?

[Goldenboko]

We always see "Favorite" or "Best Game" or whatever, but this is something different, which game of the main series best lived up to the term 'fantasy'?

Personally I have to give this one, to FFXII. On first glance, I was worried that FFXII was going to revert back to the VII and VIII definition of the setting of an FF, some futuristic crap-hole, because the very first thing I saw was huge Star Wars-esc, ship battles. Once I actually got into the game, this changed. From the deserts of Dalmasca and the pure foreign look and idea (a mine in the sky?) of Bhujurba, the entire game really gave that fantasy world effect. It managed to tie in so many different types of scenery and places, both in and out of this world.

[Vivisteiner]

For me its FFIX, and thats not just because Im an FFIX junky.

FFIX was complete fantasy. Stuff like Cleyra, Iifa tree, silver dragons etc. Even the characters were non-real and imaginitive. It stuck less to real, accepted environments and character designs than other games. Out of the other games Ive played...

FFVII: Not really. It had the life stream, but the business of Shinra etc made it seem un-fantasy ish. Then again, Cloud's hairstyle was fantastical.

FFVIII: This was more sci-fi and FF combined. Its futuristic and thus not your typical 'fantasy'.

FFX: That was pretty much fantasy. Only thing is, the environments seemed more normal and less original. Correct me if Im wrong.

FFXII: The political side made it seem very real. But diverse characters and floating cities lands it firmly in fantasy category. Less so than FFIX IMO. The star wars -eque bits too made it a little less like fantasy.

The eariler FFs were very typical fantasy, but I havent played them yet. (Playing FFI and own FFII)

[Bolivar]

I don't think you could really say anything is "more" fantasy than something else when it comes a category that encompasses all of them.

If anything, I would say I-V were the "least" fantasy since they all used generic vanilla-flavored fantasy settings with little to no delving in to them. There wasn't much thought put into the locations and such, because at the end of the day, it was just a Dragon Quest knock-off.

FFVI is when you started really getting into specific crevices of the genre - steampunk, and the artistic representation complemented the idea well. Like VII, it also shared biopunk devices, storytelling about totalitarian organizations which biologically alter humans and other living organisms for control/power/profit.

VIII kind of went in the other direction, presenting a Utopia where nature and science coexisted, exemplified by the Shumis and Fisherman's Horizon.

IX might also be a little vanilla but it did include a wide array of locations, creatures, and legends.

I voted for X because it got so far into its concept that almost everything in the game was symbolic of it. Spira and its culture of death permeated every fabric of their world.

XII also was pretty in-depth with its middle eastern/east mediterranean features.

But if you want to add up which ones have the most amount of swords/magic spells/dragons/princesses, that'd be another thing.

[scrumpleberry]

X, because I loved the world. For me, fantasy is about escapism. It worked the best there.

[Hyperion4444]

Final Fantasy VIII
Love = Fantasy

[Vivisteiner]

Final Fantasy VIII
Love = Fantasy
And thats why Romantic novels are found in the Fantasy section.


This topic is kinda weird though, because they are all fantasy. I guess the most fantasy would be the world which is least like earth.

[Roto13]

I have come to the conclusion that none of you know what fantasy is. Well, most of you.

[Brennan]

FFIX was complete fantasy. Stuff like Cleyra, Iifa tree, silver dragons etc. Even the characters were non-real and imaginitive. It stuck less to real, accepted environments and character designs than other games. Out of the other games Ive played...

[Elskidor]

Well..errmm..all of them pull it off pretty well. Some of them lean toward the sci-fi side, but all of the Final Fantasy games are great fantasy tales. If you're looking for your basic sword and dragon fantasy then you can rule most of them out. By these terms then I'd have to give my vote to IV.

[s[H]sIkuA]

Well..errmm..all of them pull it off pretty well. Some of them lean toward the sci-fi side, but all of the Final Fantasy games are great fantasy tales. If you're looking for your basic sword and dragon fantasy then you can rule most of them out. By these terms then I'd have to give my vote to IV.

This.
Although if you want me to pick one, I'll pick IX

[Kenshin IV]

The answer to this does not need pages and pages of paragraphs or discussion: It's all of them. Could not be a simpler answer.

All of them are pure, 100% fantasy.

[Bastian]

IV, for sure! But IX is a VERY close second. They both fall into the genre of fantasy (Lord of the Rings, etc) perfectly of elves and princes and dragons and castles and swords and sorcery, etc.

Some will argue that the fantasy genre can just as easily encompas things like VII and VIII and the Spirits Within movie . . . but those are DEFINATELY sci-fi, as far as I'm concerned. So there.

Wark! :choc:

[f f freak]

Quite frankly, I fail to see how VII and VIII fall into Sci-Fi. Nothing about them actually makes me think Sci-Fi, apart from Esthar in VIII which is obviosuly just an advanced Civilization, that many FF games have. Besides, they're called Final Fantasy.

[The Crystal]

To me, is FFIX.

Treno the city of eternal night, Burmecia the city of eternal rain, Cleyra the city on a tree surrounded by a magical sandstorm, the misterious Mist envolving the entire Mist Continent, the exotic and misterious Iifa Tree, a world in an alternate dimension(Terra), the misterious Outer Continent and Forgotten Continent, Madain Sari and the story of the Summoners and Eidolons, the surreal Memoria, the beautiful Crystal World, etc.

The locations of FFIX scream "fantasy".

[ReloadPsi]

I liked that, in contrast to the predecessors, FFIX seemed to be more awash with diverse races such as dudes with fish heads, anthropomorphic rats and whatnot...

You could walk past these things in the game and you, the player, would be the only person finding it remotely odd. Stuff that's not real is accepted as the norm in that game, instead of just magic.

But saying that, I'd have trouble just picking one.

[Wolf Kanno]

Quite frankly, I fail to see how VII and VIII fall into Sci-Fi. Nothing about them actually makes me think Sci-Fi, apart from Esthar in VIII which is obviosuly just an advanced Civilization, that many FF games have. Besides, they're called Final Fantasy.

Well, I feel its because their is a balance issue, VII and VIII both focused on concepts that most would agree is sci-fi territory, genetic engineering, super weapons, Time Travel, space travel, throw in the fact that both games feature heavy usage of modern technology like cars, guns, cell phones, satellites, helicopters and missile silos.

I feel the original VII can still be classified as fantasy/cyberpunk but VIII is a bit of a different story. It has Fantasy elements but I really feel its genre is much closer to Sci-Fi especially since Sci-Fi has changed so much in the last 20 years. All the games hit both sides, I feel the main difference is a balance of said ratios. I feel most of the FFs generally hit a 50/50 mark V, VI, VII, IX, and X are all just as much traditional fantasy as they are science fiction stories.

My personal taste? I, IV and V are sorta a perfect 50/50 mix of sci-fi and fantasy. II and III are the closest to being traditional fantasy in the series. VI is Steampunk which is easily one of my favorite niche genres, VII has a pretty good steam/cyber punk feel, IX is a good mix of hardcore Jim Henson style fantasy (more Dark Crystal and Labyrinth) but its hard to deny its heavy use of sci-fi elements as well. X is fantasy done with a Japanese mythos. Its story is actually a retelling of one of the oldest legends in Shinto. Though I actually like Oriental Fantasy, I don't particularly care for X's style cause its relatively "safe". XI is more in line of "Old school FF" and XII is quite more difficult to pin down. I'm beginning to feel Ivalice and all its incarnations deserve their won damn category of fantasy.

Of the main series, I feel III and IV represent the best fantasy "feel" to me. Though I would rank XII as the best if I counted all the other games from Ivalice.

[Moon Rabbits]

IX.

[Jiro]

There are a few that stand out to me, though VII and VIII are not among them. They just seem to sci-fi for my liking. I voted XII, just because I couldn't choose between VI, IX, X and XII.

[NeoTifa]

9, just for the fact that zidane had a tail :p

[Bolivar]

For all of you that keep insisting "SCI-FI!!!":

go to a group that plays the pencil-and-paper version of Shadow Run, and try to convince them that they are playing a sci-fi game.

[Goldenboko]

For all of you that keep insisting "SCI-FI!!!":

go to a group that plays the pencil-and-paper version of Shadow Run, and try to convince them that they are playing a sci-fi game.

How does that prove anything? How does how a group of fans perceive what they do prove anything at all in any situation?

Story genres are there to separate stories, if one qualifies for a type of genre thats all there is to it.

[The Crystal]

What's really funny, is the people who say that FFVII is sci-fi(it's more to steampunk, in my personal opinion), are the same people who don't consider FFVI a sci-fi game.
FFVI... A game with robots, factories, experiments, and etc.

[Bastian]

Not so. I would say that VI falls into that category a bit as well.

For me, the more sci-fi, the less I like it. For that reason, VI is NOT one of my favorites. I've never played it more than once. IV, on the other hand, has a much smaller percent of that stuff and IS one of my favorites and I've replayed it countless times. VII had so much of that stuff that I simply didn't like it and stopped playing it without ever finishing it.

By no means am I saying VII IS scifi . . . but it's too MUCH sci-fi for my gaming tastes.

Basically, if there are guns or laser guns instead of swords, I'm not into it.

[Ouch!]

Science fiction is often regarded a sub-genre of fantasy. It's just a sub-genre that has a much more distinct identity than most.

[Goldenboko]

What's really funny, is the people who say that FFVII is sci-fi(it's more to steampunk, in my personal opinion), are the same people who don't consider FFVI a sci-fi game.
FFVI... A game with robots, factories, experiments, and etc.

Well I do not, so gtfo with your assumptions >:0

[Vivisteiner]

I would say that both FFVII and VIII are fantasy. But FFVII has sci fi elements and FFVIII has strong sci fi elements.

[Wolf Kanno]

For all of you that keep insisting "SCI-FI!!!":

go to a group that plays the pencil-and-paper version of Shadow Run, and try to convince them that they are playing a sci-fi game.

Give me one moment *calls his rpg club* Yes, we do actually consider Shadow Run sci-fi though to be technical its "cyber punk with a decent dose of fantasy". Yet most of us agree its cyber punk background negates it from being a true fantasy. :p


What's really funny, is the people who say that FFVII is sci-fi(it's more to steampunk, in my personal opinion), are the same people who don't consider FFVI a sci-fi game.
FFVI... A game with robots, factories, experiments, and etc.

VI is Steam punk baby! :cool: I don't consider it "traditional fantasy" at all really. Course I don't consider VI, VII, VIII, or X "traditional fantasy" and prefer to call them by their sub-genres.

**********************************************************************

OMG! :eek: I hate these kind of arguments. :mad: Nothing more stupid than people bitching about the definition of a word, especially since if human language has show us anything is that the language changes but not the books. Basically, their is a difference in "educational" definition and "common" definition. I feel when most people hear fantasy, you think Lord of the Rings or D&D. If you said Star Trek was your favorite fantasy series, Trekkies will be quick to point out your wrong in saying its "fantasy" and is in fact science fiction. Saying its "fantasy" is a gross generalization of a very distinct genre with specific characteristics that separate it from other genres. Sci-Fi has grown so much in the last century that its become more than a sub-genre in the basic definition of the word "fantasy". Most book stores or Sci-Fi groups regard it as a separate genre by this point.

To be honest, the dictionary definition of "fantasy" is pretty vague and I feel its mostly understood that anything that isn't based in reality that most people (by that I mean the "common" man) refers to fantasy as in the Tolkien inspired genre of swords and sorcery.

This is most likely due to the fact that the "textbook" definition of fantasy is so vague most people commonly generalize it to mean swords and sorcery fantasy. Why? Cause they were the first genre. The legends and myths of the old world are what most traditional High or epic fantasies are based on. Science Fiction, Occult Fiction, Cyber Punk, and Steampunk all came later and they all have such distinct traits I feel its ok to refer to VI, VII, VIII, and X by their specific genre rather than a generalized word that can mean anything.

Hell, the definition of fantasy and fiction are pretty interchangeable if you read them so I've come to the conclusion that everyone here is wrong and all the Final Fantasy's are in fact not "fantasy" but actually fiction. :cool:

Of which, VI, VII, and VIII are the weakest fiction stories cause they contain the most amount of non-fiction elements in their stories. :p

[The Crystal]

Well I do not, so gtfo with your assumptions >:0

You are not the only person in the world who say that FFVII is sci-fi/steampunk, you know.

[Vermachtnis]

I'm gonna say III cause the first 20% or so takes place on a floating continent and nothing says fantasy to me like a floating land mass. Also two immortals. That's kinda fantasy-ey.

Cue the smart aleks who have to point out that technically all land masses are floating on magma ;p

[Bastian]

Science fiction is often regarded a sub-genre of fantasy. It's just a sub-genre that has a much more distinct identity than most.

Actually, you've got it reversed there, buddy.

Fantasy is actually a sub-genre of Science Fiction. (Yeay for being a Lit major).

[Goldenboko]

Well I do not, so gtfo with your assumptions >:0

You are not the only person in the world who say that FFVII is sci-fi/steampunk, you know.

I still don't know what steam-punk is :spin:

My point is, using a general assumption is a bad way to support any argument.

[The Crystal]

I still don't know what steam-punk is :spin:

But you think that FFVII is "sci-fi", don't you? So, my point still stand.


My point is, using a general assumption is a bad way to support any argument.

It's not an assumption. There are people who reagard FFVII as a sci-fi/steampunk game, but not FFVI.
Those people still exist, you being part of them or not.

[Rostum]

Science fiction is often regarded a sub-genre of fantasy. It's just a sub-genre that has a much more distinct identity than most.

Actually, you've got it reversed there, buddy.

Fantasy is actually a sub-genre of Science Fiction. (Yeay for being a Lit major).

Wow, it looks like you basically never paid attention during lectures then. Fantasy isn't a sub-genre of Sci-Fi. They sit beside each other in what we call Speculative fiction.

Also, mythology and magic are popular themes of Fantasy, they do not completely make up Fantasy. It doesn't need to be medieval with wizards and magic in order for it to be considered Fantasy.

FFVII is not Sci-Fi, it's steampunk, which is a sub-genre of Fantasy and Speculative fiction, not Sci-Fi.

[Wolf Kanno]

Science fiction is often regarded a sub-genre of fantasy. It's just a sub-genre that has a much more distinct identity than most.

Actually, you've got it reversed there, buddy.

Fantasy is actually a sub-genre of Science Fiction. (Yeay for being a Lit major).

Wow, it looks like you basically never paid attention during lectures then. Fantasy isn't a sub-genre of Sci-Fi. They sit beside each other in what we call Speculative fiction.

Also, mythology and magic are popular themes of Fantasy, they do not completely make up Fantasy. It doesn't need to be medieval with wizards and magic in order for it to be considered Fantasy.

FFVII is not Sci-Fi, it's steampunk, which is a sub-genre of Fantasy and Speculative fiction, not Sci-Fi.

I'm curious to know how steam punk is considered a sub-genre of fantasy rather than sci-fi when the general definition of sci-fi is a fantasy story with a heavy emphasis on science and scientific explanation. Then you have steam punk which is usually shown as a story taking place in a society similar to Industrial Revolution era Europe and America with a heavy emphasis of steam powered machines and technology, generally falling into futuristic notions of technology (steam powered robots for example).

I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just wondering where the logic comes from that people would consider it a sub-genre of fantasy?

[The Crystal]

FFVII is not Sci-Fi, it's steampunk

Talking about this... If we look at the FFVII series as a whole, I think that it can be considered sci-fi.
The world of FFVII was a steampunk world, but only when we had the original game. Now, it seems that the Compilation turned it in a sci-fi world.

[Kes]

Science fiction is often regarded a sub-genre of fantasy. It's just a sub-genre that has a much more distinct identity than most.

Actually, you've got it reversed there, buddy.

Fantasy is actually a sub-genre of Science Fiction. (Yeay for being a Lit major).

Wow, it looks like you basically never paid attention during lectures then. Fantasy isn't a sub-genre of Sci-Fi. They sit beside each other in what we call Speculative fiction.

Also, mythology and magic are popular themes of Fantasy, they do not completely make up Fantasy. It doesn't need to be medieval with wizards and magic in order for it to be considered Fantasy.

FFVII is not Sci-Fi, it's steampunk, which is a sub-genre of Fantasy and Speculative fiction, not Sci-Fi.

I'm curious to know how steam punk is considered a sub-genre of fantasy rather than sci-fi when the general definition of sci-fi is a fantasy story with a heavy emphasis on science and scientific explanation. Then you have steam punk which is usually shown as a story taking place in a society similar to Industrial Revolution era Europe and America with a heavy emphasis of steam powered machines and technology, generally falling into futuristic notions of technology (steam powered robots for example).

I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just wondering where the logic comes from?


1. I've always understood it the way Ouch! explained it or the way Omecle explained it as Speculative Fiction.

2. From what I understand, steampunk requires more Victorian era science that somehow goes beyond just that (either with the aid of magic, or an "alternative" science progression to what we're used to) and depending on emphasis in the particular story, steampunk could be classified as either. That being said, I'm not quite seeing where the steampunk elements of FFVII come into play.

3. I'm going to go out on a limb and say FFVII is more cyberpunk (wikipedia agrees, though in this case, I'm not saying it's much of an authority).


On the actual idea of the most "Fantasy" of the games, I chose out of which one is the closest to the stereotypical Sword and Sorcery/High Fantasy subgenres as I understand them.

This means I disregarded any of the games I played which I considered more Science Fantasy or "realistic". I ended up choosing FFX for its integration of a "Summoner" into the culture and the way the dead act, the backstory the monsters are given, different races etc. as well as the whole double world concept.

That being said, I think games like FFIII and FFIV have more of a "fantasy" feel to them even though they're weak in developing some of the things FFX did. The thing is, FFIII and FFIV are both based on crystals of power and something like that is a pretty classic fantastical element (I think) not to mention the lesser technological aspect and the sense of "rifts" in the world caused by Good vs. Evil.

*shrug*


((Note, the computer I'm on lacks spell check, please forgive any errors I missed.))

[Ouch!]

Kes is spot on about the term steampunk originally being used as a type of divergent reality based on a different path of advancement from Victorian era steam technology. However, the term, as far as I understand it, has become an acceptable way to describe any world reliant on a technological system which is an equivalent alternative to our own.

Also, Bastian, I'm not sure what your professors have been telling you, but I've never heard fantasy described as a sub-genre of science fiction. I stand by my previous statement of science fiction being a sub-genre of fantasy or, as both Omecle and Kes have acknowledge, a sub-genre of speculative fiction. I'm sorry, chief, you're the one bass ackwards in this case. Also, I'm also a literature major (with a focus in creative writing), so it seems that we're at a stalemate in that regard.

I just fail to see how science fiction (defined as "a form of fiction that draws imaginatively on scientific knowledge and speculation in its plot, setting, theme, etc.") could possibly be a sub-genre of fantasy (defined as "an imaginative or fanciful work, esp. one dealing with supernatural or unnatural events or characters"). It seems that science fiction carries the definition with more specific requirements. By these definitions, fantasy is clearly the broader genre, and it's impossible for a sub-genre to be broader in scope than its parent genre.

[Wolf Kanno]

Wow, this topic got derailed pretty badly :p

[Ouch!]

Hardly. How can we accurately gauge which game best personifies fantasy until we agree on what exactly it means to be a fantasy title. Whether fantasy is science fiction or science fiction is fantasy is very much on topic as it determines the direction of the argument.

[Wolf Kanno]

Hardly. How can we accurately gauge which game best personifies fantasy until we agree on what exactly it means to be a fantasy title. Whether fantasy is science fiction or science fiction is fantasy is very much on topic as it determines the direction of the argument.

You have a point :p

I've always considered fantasy and science fiction to be different genres though I've always understood sci-fi to be originally a sub-genre of fantasy. I just feel that by today's standards, sci-fi has reached a point of specification and detail in which I feel it could be considered its own genre. Setting, emphasis on technology and super science, as well as the fact that most supernatural phenomenon has a logical and pseudo-scientific explanation for occurring. For instance, despite basically being magic, the ether abilities from the Xenosaga series have a scientific explanation for being plausible, whereas most magic in the FF universe has none.

I think the real problem falls from whether we define fantasy as its general term (which I personally feel is stupid) or whether we should refer to things by their respective sub-genres?

[Kes]

Kes is spot on about the term steampunk originally being used as a type of divergent reality based on a different path of advancement from Victorian era steam technology. However, the term, as far as I understand it, has become an acceptable way to describe any world reliant on a technological system which is an equivalent alternative to our own.

I don't think it has become acceptable to apply steampunk to any alternative tech system, actually. Unless it's clearly designed to look like such, Maco (spelling?) based tech is not going to be equivalent to steam based or clockwork (which tends to also fall under steampunk, I understand). In this case, the technological aspect of this game can be considered SF but since it's not "hard" SF (ie. those books that put more thought into the plausibility and timeline of the technology than the actual plot), and in fact has a strong magical element, the subgenre would probably best defined as Science Fantasy.

Also, cyberpunk seems to be another good term for FFVII as that is "Classic cyberpunk characters were marginalized, alienated loners who lived on the edge of society in generally dystopic futures where daily life was impacted by rapid technological change, an ubiquitous datasphere of computerized information, and invasive modification of the human body" (once again, found on Wikipedia, though this is actually sourced). Clearly, this is FFVII, yes?

I've been seeing a lot more people becoming aware of steampunk than cyberpunk and then using the term for both. Prescriptive vs. descriptive grammar blah blah blah, it's still wrong.


Though either way, this throws FFVII outside the "classic" fantasy idea which uses little to no technology. It still is fantasy, though.


Would everyone agree that embodying the idea of fantasy would require both magic and mystic creatures (prefferably dragons)? And then at least some of the following: a medieval-esque setting, other races, a legend/prophesy of somesort, a vs. A Bad Guy / Overloard (instead of "society", government, or a corporation), and limited technology?

I know that that's a pretty much purely Western view of fantasy, but I'm ignorant of any others.

((Still no spell check))

[Bastian]

I've never heard fantasy described as a sub-genre of science fiction. I stand by my previous statement of science fiction being a sub-genre of fantasy.

Sci Fi as genre predates Fantasy as a genre. Certainly there were fantastical stories being written (and passed along by word of mouth) since nearly the dawn of time, but what I'm talking about is that its actual definition of a genre in the literary sense didn't being until the early 80s or late 70s where as Science Fiction originated in the 50s.

Anyway, with further research it looks like we're all wrong. Fantasy is no longer considered to be a "subgenre" it's now a "related genre" . . . :)

[Ouch!]

I've never heard fantasy described as a sub-genre of science fiction. I stand by my previous statement of science fiction being a sub-genre of fantasy.

Sci Fi as genre predates Fantasy as a genre. Certainly there were fantastical stories being written (and passed along by word of mouth) since nearly the dawn of time, but what I'm talking about is that its actual definition of a genre in the literary sense didn't being until the early 80s or late 70s where as Science Fiction originated in the 50s.
Fantasy has been around a lot longer than the 1950's. Tolkien did not create the genre.

[Bastian]

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying. As a marketed genre in the bookselling world, the Sci Fi genre predated Fantasy, which only became a recognized genre in the late seventies/early 80s. Fantasy was in the beginning concidered a subgenre of Sci Fi. That has since changed.

Obviously what we would NOW categorize as Fantasy (Lord Dunnsany, L. Frank Baum, Wilde, Hawthorne) predate even the genre of Sci Fi.

[Kes]

While Ouch! is right and the genre really does predate Tolkien as a recognised genre but LoTR, as well as the Chronicals of Narnia were both published in the 1950s.

This means, Bastian, that both Lewis and Tolkien woudl have said they were either writing SciFi or what? Not fantasty, according to your argument.

What about Lewis Carrol? And The Wizard of Oz?

[Bolivar]

For all of you that keep insisting "SCI-FI!!!":

go to a group that plays the pencil-and-paper version of Shadow Run, and try to convince them that they are playing a sci-fi game.

Give me one moment *calls his rpg club* Yes, we do actually consider Shadow Run sci-fi though to be technical its "cyber punk with a decent dose of fantasy". Yet most of us agree its cyber punk background negates it from being a true fantasy. :p


You know Shadow Run players who consider it sci-fi?

You're either a bad liar or a poor comedian.

I think the reason why we're now caught up in the definition of fantasy, rather than giving our opinions on the original question, is because of this truth:

Some of the people who don't like FFVII/VIII (at least relative to other entries) try to devalue it by saying "it isn't fantasy" - primarily because they do not understand what fantasy is in the first place.

Not to mention that we're using popular Western misconceptions of fantasy to judge Japanese interpretations of the genre.

Case closed.

[Wolf Kanno]

You know Shadow Run players who consider it sci-fi?

You're either a bad liar or a poor comedian.

Yes we do, what kind of people do you hang out with. Hell, most sources have Shadow Run listed as cyber punk. What? Does your definition of cyber punk mean magic and trolls are not allowed? ;)


I think the reason why we're now caught up in the definition of fantasy, rather than giving our opinions on the original question, is because of this truth:

Some of the people who don't like FFVII/VIII (at least relative to other entries) try to devalue it by saying "it isn't fantasy" - primarily because they do not understand what fantasy is in the first place.

I'm going to ignore the possibility of you clumping me in with these kind of people. Personally I don't mind VI, VII, and VIII not being traditional fantasy. I like steam punk, cyber punk, and sci-fi and I don't feel these games are any less for being that way. I just like to call them like I see them. I don't care for some people's definition of fantasy cause I feel its way too general to be honest and most of the times its a gross generalization of something that fits specific genres. Had these games not fit the criteria for sub-genres I would have no issue calling them fantasy but alas they do.


Not to mention that we're using popular Western misconceptions of fantasy to judge Japanese interpretations of the genre.

Case closed.

Alright people, Bolivar has placed his foot down and we know he's always right so we can all go off to more interesting threads now! Sorry had to jab at you a bit. :p

Do you know how the Japanese actually perceive the fantasy and sci-fi genre? From my understanding, they perceive the genre's closer to these "Western" misconceptions than we do. They don't even consider FF to be true fantasy. Its why DQ has always been a more popular fantasy series in Japan. Its my understanding that IX was made the way it was partly cause the Japanese fans thought VI, VII, and VIII were too sci-fi.

If you look through any Japanese film catalog you will find that generally what falls under fantasy is mostly sword and sorcery while sci-fi is predominately space ships and giant robots. Is there blending? Yes, but rarely do you see a 50/50 blend and generally a show will always fit enough of a genre criteria to be labeled so. Fantasy can have a bit of super science and science fiction has a bit of the old school fantasy (they do have that elf fetish :shifty:).

The only show I can think of off the top of my head that is classified unusually is the crappy Scrapped Princess. 90% High fantasy D&D http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif with a matrix style sci-fi plot twist that makes up the other crappy 20% of this show. Its generally labeled as a Fantasy Sci-Fi...

In the gaming world Star Ocean is classified as a Sci-Fi RPG yet it features the same amount of science fiction to fantasy ratio as many of the FFs. Why is it then considered a Science Fiction game instead of a fantasy game? Cause it fits the criteria of Science Fiction that's generally lacking in the FFs (mostly a heavy emphasis on scientific explanations for fantastical concepts). I personally feel VIII fits the criteria for being a sci-fi piece as well, I do feel their is a fantasy element as well but the ratio is more 70:30 so I feel it should be defined more as Sci-Fi than fantasy.

I feel VI and VII fit all the criteria to be considered Steam Punk (VI) and Cyber Punk (VII) respectively. I don't see how defining them so and not considering them pure fantasy is somehow a mortal sin that requires people to force their own damn perception onto me. Call me and ignorant smurf and let me be. ;)

[Karellen]

Do we actually care what the Japanese think these games should be categorized as anyway? Just because they thought they were making "X" but actually made "Y" doesn't mean we have to listen to them when they try to pass it off as "X" anyway. Case and point: most JRPGs are not actually "role playing games", despite what Japanese developers think.

[Rostum]

I would like to see some authorative sources on exactly what the Japanese community and developers think before I believe a word of Wolf Kanno's post, tbh.

[Goldenboko]

I think the reason why we're now caught up in the definition of fantasy, rather than giving our opinions on the original question, is because of this truth:

Some of the people who don't like FFVII/VIII (at least relative to other entries) try to devalue it by saying "it isn't fantasy" - primarily because they do not understand what fantasy is in the first place.

Yes, that's definitely it. Definitely :rolleyes2
The topic of 'What is Fantasy' has everything to do with this topic. How can you give an opinion on what was the best fantasy of the series, without at least sharing what you think of fantasy.

Fantasy is something out of the realm of believable, once you start to lean closer to a Science Fiction setting/story it becomes much more believable, and to me FFVII and FFVIII strayed closer to that.

Just look at the first few sections of FFVII, you start in a huge city. The entire strife (lmaowaffles) is that the reactors of the city are draining the life out of the planet. That isn't fantasy at all. We move on to Kalm, and have a nice little memory. We end up going to another reactor, and the reactor is housed with scientific experiments. Even the magic of the game is 'debunked'.


Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

Cloud: Magic……a mysterious power…

Sephiroth: Ha, ha, ha!

Cloud: Did I say something funny?

Sephiroth: A man once told me never to use an unscientific term such as mysterious power! It shouldn't even be called 'magic'! I still remember how angry he was.

Cloud: What was that?

Sephiroth: Hojo of Shinra, Inc. … An inexperienced man assigned to take over the work of a great scientist. He was a walking mass of complexes.


Even if I didn't know the definition of Fantasy, FFVII still satisfied my definition of Science Fiction.

[Bolivar]

Yes we do, what kind of people do you hang out with.

You consider a game with trolls, elves, dwarves, and a heavy emphasis on magic to be science fiction? The reason I brought up the game is because of how outspoken Shadow Run gamers can get over this popular misunderstanding of what is fantasy and what isn't.


Hell, most sources have Shadow Run listed as cyber punk. What? Does your definition of cyber punk mean magic and trolls are not allowed?

Actually most sources have Shadow Run listed as "RPG" - not sure what you're talking about. And "Urban Fantasy" seems to be used along with cyberpunk alot of the time for its description, if not more.

When did I say magic and trolls are not in cyber punk? One of my first points in this thread was to establish that there are sub-genres of fantasy, specifically mentioning cyberpunk



Fantasy is something out of the realm of believable, once you start to lean closer to a Science Fiction setting/story it becomes much more believable, and to me FFVII and FFVIII strayed closer to that.

Just look at the first few sections of FFVII, you start in a huge city. The entire strife (lmaowaffles) is that the reactors of the city are draining the life out of the planet. That isn't fantasy at all. We move on to Kalm, and have a nice little memory. We end up going to another reactor, and the reactor is housed with scientific experiments. Even the magic of the game is 'debunked'.



"That isn't fantasy at all."

:eek::confused::greenie: - The beginning of the game has you using a sword and magic spells to destroy people with guns!!!! Accompanied by large cat-beasts! You're telling me FFVII strays closer to the believable!?

You have just successfully convinced me that you did not in fact actually play the game.

Either that or you have just demonstrated just how blatantly ignorant you can be of things so closely tied to your argument.

[Goldenboko]

Closer to believable in terms of relativity.

Everything in FFVII has a little *b/c* in it. Cloud can beat the crap out of guys with guns, because he was exposed to Jenova Cells. They can shoot fire, because of materia which is the power of Gaia extracted from natural mako.

Also, I was talking about the plot. The plot has much less fantasy then games past (and future). How about you stop just calling people ignorant when they give an opinion and start debating :o

[Rostum]

So wait, we're arguing FFVII is closer to reality than fantasy? What is this crazy thread up to?! Not even the plot comes under believability. Someone using magic to cast a huge meteor to crash into the planet, aided by an ancient witch, so they can become one with the life force of the planet. Not fantasy at all...

Also, just because they give an extremely shallow explination for the how of using magic, does not make this science fiction. If they elaborated more on it than just one vague scene in the game, then I could understand, but they don't.

[Wolf Kanno]

Do we actually care what the Japanese think these games should be categorized as anyway? Just because they thought they were making "X" but actually made "Y" doesn't mean we have to listen to them when they try to pass it off as "X" anyway. Case and point: most JRPGs are not actually "role playing games", despite what Japanese developers think.

I actually agree here.


I would like to see some authorative sources on exactly what the Japanese community and developers think before I believe a word of Wolf Kanno's post, tbh.

I gained most of my sources from various written literature on the subject. As an avid anime fan (I would say otaku but I just know someone is going to get into my face about it ) I like to read up on the articles and understand more on why I love the style. I advise reading The Anime Encyclopedia by Jonathan Clements and Helen McCarthy and Anime: From Akira to Howl's Moving Castle Updated Edition, Experiencing Contemporary Japanese Animation by Susan J. Napier.

As for the IX bit, its only one of the reasons why IX was intially designed to be more classic fantasy. There were in fact many reasons. For source material, I advise finding any magazine regarding FFIX published back in 2000

Despite this, you can choose to regard my opinion or not. It really doesn't matter to me.




You consider a game with trolls, elves, dwarves, and a heavy emphasis on magic to be science fiction? The reason I brought up the game is because of how outspoken Shadow Run gamers can get over this popular misunderstanding of what is fantasy and what isn't.

Yes, and your point? Its more about setting and story structure than what inhabits it. Yet if I remember correctly, I clarified in saying its Cyber Punk with a dose of Fantasy involved.

I've never encountered problems defining it as I do with Shadow Runner players. Perhaps if I wandered into a forum but god knows we run into all kinds of different opinions on simple concepts. This thread being case in point.


Actually most sources have Shadow Run listed as "RPG" - not sure what you're talking about. And "Urban Fantasy" seems to be used along with cyberpunk alot of the time for its description, if not more.

When did I say magic and trolls are not in cyber punk? One of my first points in this thread was to establish that there are sub-genres of fantasy, specifically mentioning cyberpunk

I guess my question would be this then, is Blade Runner and Akira fantasy or sci-fi and why?

[Bolivar]

^ First of all, you're missing my overall point: To argue which FF is "most" fantasy is about as moronic as asking which of apples, pears, and oranges are "most" like a fruit.


I guess my question would be this then, is Blade Runner and Akira fantasy or sci-fi and why?

This is your other major problem - you're looking at it in a black/white manner, as if you're unaware that sci fi and fantasy share many subgenres which overlap the two.

Sci Fi is a work of fiction with elements that could reasonably occur relatively within the realm of scientific possibility. I'm not going to use an English word to define a Japanese film, because Akira obviously embodies sci fi elements, but at the same time, the whole idea of Akira's powers/return borders much on the supernatural. Again, it illuminates the problem with your "fantasy or sci fi"/"one or the other" question.

The two defining aspects of fantasy are extremely imaginative qualities and using magic/the supernatural as a primary focus. The core plot factors of both VII and VIII, popularly misconstrued as "Sci Fi" (at least on this forum - i've never heard it in real life) very much "personify the definition of fantasy".

[Kes]

I totally told myself that I was staying out of this thread, but clearly I fail.


^ First of all, you're missing my overall point: To argue which FF is "most" fantasy is about as moronic as asking which of apples, pears, and oranges are "most" like a fruit.

I would actually say it's closer to asking which of the following "best lives up to the term bird": a penguin, an ostrich, a robin or an eagle?

While all of them are birds (and no one here is saying that any of the FF titles are 100% not fantasy, I think), penguins and ostriches are generally not the kind of bird people think of when the word is mentioned. For instance, neither of them can fly, and most people tend to associate birds with flying. Now, obviously which of the latter two best embodies "bird" is going to be a difference of opinion, but more people are going to choose those.

None of the choices here are flat out wrong, but some of them are going to be more typical, which is kind of what the question is asking.


And just for the record, I loved FFVII, but I still don't think it "best lives up to the term fantasy."

[Wolf Kanno]

I actually feel that VI, VII, and VIII do have major fantasy elements but I recognize they all have major elements that slide them into other genres so I find it difficult to just say they are fantasy stories. Especially when I feel these other elements are stronger than the fantasy elements. I believe in calling a story by its "setting" rather than fulfilling a partial check list that only encompasses roughly half the game.

Overall, I feel they contain both elements, I just feel the criteria for slotting it into a sub-genre is stronger than the basic fantasy element. If you had read my original post you would know that I do feel the three games mentioned above have fantasy in it but I feel they hold stronger to sub-genres which is why I don't classify them as simple fantasy.

I feel if you stated VIII was just fantasy to a casual gamer cause they wanted to play something fantasy, they might come back and say its not true fantasy. Yes it has dragons and magic but its setting is modern day, its plot revolves around time travel, and the vast majority of the "traditional fantasy" elements are poorly explained in the world. Hell, all the monsters in the games are aliens from the moon for crying out loud. :p I just feel they might wonder what you were smoking by defining it as basic fantasy when it contains so many elements from different genres.

If you want to be fair, I don't feel you can really define the series since the whole series incorporates so many different elements and genres. I feel even calling it "fantasy" doesn't quite measure up to what the series really is. To be honest, I feel you cannot define it one way or the other but it doesn't stop people from doing it cause its our nature to define and quantify everything around us.

I find most people define a story by its setting rather than the elements that make it up. Can fantasy happen in a modern setting? Yes, but if the world and setting it designed in a way to incorporate the possibility of another explanation; in other words, the world only appears normal but it contains elements that fall into different genres. I feel it loses a bit of its clout and should stick to being defined by its setting.

[Bolivar]

^ Stories...should be defined by their setting?

Oh, man. I'm not even sure what you're trying to say after that one. So if a story takes place in a city, which genre is that now?

Any number of them. I'm not sure whether to respond since this seems like one of your self-admitted desires to cause debate/dissension because it's "more interesting" (and less authentic).

Another problem with your message is you referring to "what most people regard as fantasy." I'm assuming what you're referring to is fairy-tale fantasy. At the end of the day, that is just another sub-genre, it in no way changes the classification of another sub-genre. It seems to me, you're trying to argue that because something isn't the popular/first thing that would pop up in somebody's head when something is mentioned, it somehow makes it less of that definition. You're confusing intrinsic with instrumental value, something along those lines.

[Wolf Kanno]

Any number of them. I'm not sure whether to respond since this seems like one of your self-admitted desires to cause debate/dissension because it's "more interesting" (and less authentic).


Maybe... :shifty:

I'll admit, I like screwing with people and I did have you going there for awhile ;)

[Serapy]

Final Fantasy VIII. It certainly gives you something to think about. Things like Time Travel, Bloodline, Cultures, Love, theories, etc.



I feel if you stated VIII was just fantasy to a casual gamer cause they wanted to play something fantasy, they might come back and say its not true fantasy. Yes it has dragons and magic but its setting is modern day, its plot revolves around time travel, and the vast majority of the "traditional fantasy" elements are poorly explained in the world. Hell, all the monsters in the games are aliens from the moon for crying out loud. I just feel they might wonder what you were smoking by defining it as basic fantasy when it contains so many elements from different genres.

Poorly explained? Just because it was thier intention of giving people to think about the FF8's plot, doesn't mean it was poorly explained.
If that wasn't the case, they would of have made clarifications about the plot and such, which in fact, they didn't.

[Mirage]

science fiction
n. A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background.

Science fiction is a form of fantasy, guys :p.

I for one, enjoy science fiction influences in my FF games. Even if it's just in the form of long forgotten ruins of an advanced civilization.

[Wolf Kanno]

Final Fantasy VIII. It certainly gives you something to think about. Things like Time Travel, Bloodline, Cultures, Love, theories, etc.



I feel if you stated VIII was just fantasy to a casual gamer cause they wanted to play something fantasy, they might come back and say its not true fantasy. Yes it has dragons and magic but its setting is modern day, its plot revolves around time travel, and the vast majority of the "traditional fantasy" elements are poorly explained in the world. Hell, all the monsters in the games are aliens from the moon for crying out loud. I just feel they might wonder what you were smoking by defining it as basic fantasy when it contains so many elements from different genres.

Poorly explained? Just because it was thier intention of giving people to think about the FF8's plot, doesn't mean it was poorly explained.
If that wasn't the case, they would of have made clarifications about the plot and such, which in fact, they didn't.

All I ask is this, what are Guardian Forces and why do they take your memories? I want an explanation from the game not fan speculation. ;)

I just feel much of the supernatural elements of VIII are half explained. It seems like alot of thought was put behind them but the story feels its unimportant to divulge information. The Centra are another piece of the puzzle that seems like its suppose to be important but seems irrelevant to the plot. Most explanations are so cryptic in the game, I felt like I was playing FFI at times and just had to accept it rather than receive a decent summary. Even the glossary provided in the game gives little to explanation for things.

I basically disagree with you on the idea that VIII was intentionally written to be the way it is. Course I stated this back in the thread where you tried to connect Ultemacia to a Greek figure, and in turn you felt this connection adds clout to the possibility that R=U. I personally have always felt that VIII was rushed and under pressure to be bigger than VII and thus several mistakes were made in the production. The game still comes off really good I just felt it lacked polish.

[Serapy]

All I ask is this, what are Guardian Forces and why do they take your memories? I want an explanation from the game not fan speculation. ;)

There are so many things that are not explained from the game, hench an existence of theories.
Open-interpretation is a good way to think of Fantasy. FFVIII has that criteria.



I basically disagree with you on the idea that VIII was intentionally written to be the way it is. Course I stated this back in the thread where you tried to connect Ultemacia to a Greek figure, and in turn you felt this connection adds clout to the possibility that R=U. I personally have always felt that VIII was rushed and under pressure to be bigger than VII and thus several mistakes were made in the production. The game still comes off really good I just felt it lacked polish.

Still, if it was really poorly explained or at least half explained, SE could have at least told us. I'm pretty sure that SE knew about the dramtic effects that FFVIII has caused, such as theories and millions of agruements. They didn't do anything.

Apparently, I just feel that there wouldn't be so many theories/interest if the plot was really poorly explained.

Final Fantasy VII was rushed in development as well, and the plot is clearer than FFVIII's plot.

[Wolf Kanno]

I feel we basically stand on opposing sides of the issue regarding VIII's story. Made more humorous due to us deciphering the same thing (the ambiguity of the Plot) as proof of our reasoning.

Course, since SE is pretty tight lip about the game and lord knows the Ultimania is pretty worthless as an information source; it is pretty difficult to determine who is actually right in this regard. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. ;)

[Serapy]

Let's say you were right in this case, would that boost SE's decisions of re-making the great Final Fantasy VIII game? I'd be fairly sure that one of thier intentions is to polish the plot. That would be interesting, actually.

I'm still interested in the remake of FFVII, because I'd like to know if the Aeris Ghost appearance in the church was really intended.
If you're interested about more info, here's the thread:
http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-vii/110066-aeriss-ghost-appearance-spoilers.html

In the last page, I've just found out that in the ending of FF7:AC, you see Aeris standing next to two childs in the church. Well, in FF7, she was also seen standing next to two childs in her church, but then she disappeared. This is the smiliar scenario as the FF7:AC ending, Aeris disappeared after she walked down the hall from two childs' position.

Also, about that photo. I'm 99% sure that there was Zack in it. It makes sense to me, anyway.

Sorry, kind of off-topic post.

[Wolf Kanno]

Let's say you were right in this case, would that boost SE's decisions of re-making the great Final Fantasy VIII game? I'd be fairly sure that one of their intentions is to polish the plot. That would be interesting, actually.

I have no real issue with a remake for VIII. Hell, just balancing the Junction system would be fine by me but interesting enough I do have one odd thought about VIII that is quite unlike me. It comes from the fact it is the only FF I felt had the plausibility of having a direct sequel. I don't like sequels or spin-offs but I really feel VIII's was the only one that had more to say cause to me it has always been the least vocal concerning its mythos and history. The game introduced so many different elements and hardly explained them that the idea of even a spin-off or a sequel that might shed some light on the matter is actually welcomed imo.

As for the conspiracy theories concerning VII. I have my own conclusions concerning the ghost Aerith and to be honest, I'm not in disagreement about the other side of the debate either. It could go either way.

[black orb]

>>> Best fantasy, FFX hands down.
Sin, Zanarkand, the unsent, the fayth, Yu Yevon, etc.
I have played lots of RPGs but FF10 story is one of the most amazing i have experienced so far.

[Vivisteiner]

^I cant tell if thats sarcasm or not.



I just said that to piss off FFX fans. Although I gotta say, FFX's plot is good, but not the most subtle. The plot twists would have been better if they hadnt been so obvious. There should have been less clues.


Oh, and you weren't really answering the question, I dont think.


EDIT: Oh, and the reason I love FFIX so much isnt because of its story - so dont try that one on me. But I do like FFIX's story a lot as well. I enjoy its characterisation and philosophy the most.

[black orb]

>>> I liked ff9 a lot too and in terms of fantasy is probably the best but my only complain is that they took lot of stuff from ff1, so it wasnt that original. I guess all credit must go to FF1 (the one who started it all).

[Crescennt]

For me FFIV is the closest to a traditional fantasy world.

FFIX took it a step further and I loved it for this reason. After VII and VIII it was like Square wanted to say: 'now that there is 3D, we can't do fantasy anymore".

FFXII was nice too.

[Vivisteiner]

They barely took much of significance from FFI. It was only references, many of which were expanded upon in FFIX a lot.