Rinoa

[スカイ]

Hi sorry I have bad English but I try best ok.Here I saw talks about FINAL FANTASY VIII theorys. Rinoa is Ultimecia ?? People not agree with it ??This is why I join here, ok to let you know the theory is confirm by Nojima, my friend, Kazushige Nojima. He write for FINAL FANTASY VIII.This picture what he said http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/4168/confirmwq4.gif His word in English: She is Arutimishia. Sorry, he want me not give his address away. I clear it.

[Serapy]

Why did he have to spoil it?

[Marky Tee]

well im convinced

[rcabronx]

I'm sorry, um, triple squares, but I dont understand that writing, so that's not proof to me.

Sir Bahamut and others have gone to great lengths intelligently documenting postulated evidence that R=U is just not probable.

[NeoCracker]

Oh god, please don't let Serepy find this thread. :(

Really though, my brain hurts now. Oh so much does it hurt.

[Rantz]

Well, that settles the discussion then!

[Bolivar]

Well, I guess that's that.

[Mirage]

I don't know if this is a joke or not, but I'm gonna assume the thread starter is being serious, because that makes for a lot more to discuss :p.

First, almost no one of us can read the mail, and second, we have no way of telling if that mail actually is from Kazushige Nojima. Even if you did reveal the address, it is easy to fake an email address.


I'm sorry, スカイ, but it is hard to believe you.

[rubah]

Why destroy your credibility by posting from a proxy?

[Mirage]

Maybe he's blocked from normal access.

[rcabronx]

Oh god, please don't let Serepy find this thread. :(

Really though, my brain hurts now. Oh so much does it hurt.

Too late! First reply...........^

[NeoCracker]

Oh god, please don't let Serepy find this thread. :(

Really though, my brain hurts now. Oh so much does it hurt.

Too late! First reply...........^

Now I just feel silly.

[rcabronx]

:(

[jammi567]

Clearl, how could we have been so stupid for all these years? :rolleyes2

[champagne supernova]

Maybe if he wrote the proper text, then it can be Babel fished and us English speakers can get a vague idea of what it says.

[Roogle]

It appears that Square Enix has designated Ultimecia as her own character as she appears in Dissidia: Final Fantasy. This appearance will likely reveal small bits of trivia that conflict with the Rinoa-Ultimecia theory due to its prevalence on the Internet.

[Serapy]

If it's true (assuming it is), I still can't find which piece of data from the game that implies his answer because there are so many pieces that makes the theory plausible and possible. I'm asking the thread poster this question.

FF7 was celebrated for 10th anniversary, since then SE has published a new "Final Fantasy VII 10th Anniversary Ultimania" book and it unraveled some new information about FF7 and its compilation that we haven't heard before. So in that logic, FF8 is almost on the 10 year milestone and it's understandable that he has corrected the theory just now. When FF8 reaches the milestone, it'd be interesting to see SQ publishing the new FF8 Ultimania book, but I doubt it some how.

If it's not true, then I honestly don't know what to say. Why would the developers lie like that? :rolleyes2

[Marky Tee]

your not seriously buyin that crap are you?

[Serapy]

Didn't you ask the same question in one of the old threads before? I'm going to repeat:

Both R=U and R=/=U theories are possible. Both have no pure evidence, it's up to you to believe. Simply put.

I really don't know if the thread creater is lying or not. The point is that if it's a lie, then for what reason?

[Sir Bahamut]

For fun presumably. It's clearly a joke topic anyway.

[Goldenboko]

...:lol:

At least make a 'translation' of what it says xD

[Hambone]

Aww, you're so cute.

[Spatvark]

Aww, you're so cute.

Ooh, it thinks it's fooling us. Yes it does. Yes it does!~

[NeoTifa]

on the topic of rinoa......

http://static.stripgenerator.com/generated/neotifa08/strip/2008/11/07/final-fantasy-viii-the-real-beginning-video_embed.png (http://lifestoryneotifa.stripgenerator.com/2008/11/07/final-fantasy-viii-the-real-beginning-video.html)

[Moon Rabbits]

wtflol.

[Jessweeee♪]

o:

[Vinhsynd]

A personal email, does not make an argument.

[Vost]

There is a compelling argument in support of one aspect of the R=U theory that involves the explanation of Ultimecia's ostensible vehemence against the world and all in it. Unlike the time sequence presented as canon in the actual story progression of the game, Rinoa, once confined in holding to stem the influence of witches in the world, remains there for an extended period of time. Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted, her rescue is thwarted by her closest friends and she spends many, many years cursing her abandonment, cursing her captive state. Slowly, she is corrupted by her feelings of desperation; her virtue is weakened and the magic within her begins to degrade her, eventually cementing a new psychology of ire so profound that she is no longer Rinoa but rather Ultimecia. Some time in the future, an event occurs that sets her free from her prison (an event that can be argued to be hinted upon in the game) and she begins to plot her revenge.

However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it, but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches. She hatches the plan of time compression and sets events in motion that come to dominate the plot of Final Fantasy 8. So corrupted is she by her hatred that she sees nothing worth saving anymore, nothing worth an ounce of compassion, even if she was capable of such a thing. Her 'possession' of Rinoa is a recognition of her former self, even if only on a subconscious level, a self that she now despises and loathes when set in contrast to the powerful being she has become. Nothing is sacred anymore. The world will pay for the death of her liberty; they will pay for their betrayal.

But this time, because of her intervention in the past, things change. Squall and company do rescue Rinoa, before she is lost to time. But things are too late. Time compression has already begun and Ultimecia is invulnerable to the effects of past or future. Understanding her identity with Rinoa is key to the brilliance of the game: It presents an ultimate story of vindication, an ultimate story of love when Squall is reunited with Rinoa and he disavows any prejudice against her regarding her status as a witch. He declares he will stand by her regardless. This time, she is not betrayed. This time, injustice and fear break against the rock of true love.

There are many things that I did not mention as far as practical possibility of the R=U theory goes. The above argument however addresses one of the central critiques in the theory. The R=U theory is that much stronger because it supplies a very clear and crisp motivation for Ultimecia's actions, as opposed to her just being a plot device.

Conclusion: R=U is likely or at least somewhat possible. Far from "highly unlikely." This should be changed since it perverts the game's beauty of subtle expression.

-Vost

[Wolf Kanno]

Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid. Their is no reference at all in the game itslef, of an alternate timeline that Ultemacia hails from in the story. No mention of any parallel time lines. In fact, Ellone makes it a point to explain that she learned that you cannot alter time. All her attempts only made the the events she wished to change come true. VIII's view of time and time travel for lack of any better explanation given by the story, the Ultimania, or even Square itself points to the fact that time is linear and unchangeable in the VIII Mythos.

The fact that Squall and SeeD's actions lead to Ultemacia giving her powers away and thus allowing her the ability to travel to this time period, due to actually having something connecting her to it. Her powers.

Ultemacia has very little back story but the best theory I've heard concerning her motive is that due to the public spectacle of the wars Adel and Edea brought in the past, the general public in her time may have hunted Sorceress' out of fear of history repeating itself. Thus coming from a future where she was hunted and hated for no reason, she lost her mind and decided the world was her enemy. Regretfully, this theory cannot explain how Ultemacia learned about Time Compression but that whole nonsense has always been ill defined in the game.

[The Man]

In fact, Ellone makes it a point to explain that she learned that you cannot alter time. All her attempts only made the the events she wished to change come true. VIII's view of time and time travel for lack of any better explanation given by the story, the Ultimania, or even Square itself points to the fact that time is linear and unchangeable in the VIII Mythos.I've never played FFVIII before so I really have no idea what any you are talking about, but if they were doing time travel in the manner of Lost (which is possible from that description) then not being able to alter the future wouldn't really preclude Rinoa from being Ultimecia, because "whatever happened, happened" - in other words, if a time traveller's actions alter the past, it's because the time traveller's actions were supposed to alter the past. Then again that might completely contradict other aspects of FFVIII's plot; like I said, I don't know. :monster:

[Aerith's Knight]

In fact, Ellone makes it a point to explain that she learned that you cannot alter time. All her attempts only made the the events she wished to change come true. VIII's view of time and time travel for lack of any better explanation given by the story, the Ultimania, or even Square itself points to the fact that time is linear and unchangeable in the VIII Mythos.I've never played FFVIII before so I really have no idea what any you are talking about, but if they were doing time travel in the manner of Lost (which is possible from that description) then not being able to alter the future wouldn't really preclude Rinoa from being Ultimecia, because "whatever happened, happened" - in other words, if a time traveller's actions alter the past, it's because the time traveller's actions were supposed to alter the past. Then again that might completely contradict other aspects of FFVIII's plot; like I said, I don't know. :monster:

No, that actually sums it up pretty well. It's like a self-fulfilling prophesy.

[Wolf Kanno]

That's how the game explains it. Ellone tries to save Laguna and uses Squall team to alter history to help him but all she ends up doing by meddling is making sure history stays on course cause it counted on her try and meddle with it. History is basically unchangeable.

Void was suggesting that their is an alternate timeline where Squall failed at a certain event in VIII's story to help Rinoa and in this timeline Rinoa eventually became Ultemacia; but if history is unchangeable and any attempt to altering it makes it happen then this scenario is impossible cause VIII's Law of Time Travel would suggest Squall would either always fail or save her depending on which event is true. VIII's story never mentions alternate time lines being possible. VIII's time travel is pretty straight forward and is very similar to Greek tragedies, in where the hero learns of a terrible prophecy concerning themselves and in the course of trying to change it, they make it come true.

I felt VIII was rather thorough on explaining how time travel worked in its world. I don't understand why people insist on placing alternate theories on how time travel works from other fiction into the VIII mythos.

[Vost]

Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid. Their is no reference at all in the game itslef, of an alternate timeline that Ultemacia hails from in the story. No mention of any parallel time lines. In fact, Ellone makes it a point to explain that she learned that you cannot alter time. All her attempts only made the the events she wished to change come true. VIII's view of time and time travel for lack of any better explanation given by the story, the Ultimania, or even Square itself points to the fact that time is linear and unchangeable in the VIII Mythos.

The fact that Squall and SeeD's actions lead to Ultemacia giving her powers away and thus allowing her the ability to travel to this time period, due to actually having something connecting her to it. Her powers.

Ultemacia has very little back story but the best theory I've heard concerning her motive is that due to the public spectacle of the wars Adel and Edea brought in the past, the general public in her time may have hunted Sorceress' out of fear of history repeating itself. Thus coming from a future where she was hunted and hated for no reason, she lost her mind and decided the world was her enemy. Regretfully, this theory cannot explain how Ultemacia learned about Time Compression but that whole nonsense has always been ill defined in the game.

The very nature of Time Compression does not necessarily mean that time is being altered, only that it is being compressed into one temporal singularity. Therefore, my theory can still hold next to the idea that the past cannot be changed. This is because it is no longer the 'past' or 'present' or 'future' per se, but rather ONE time. It is THIS one time that is changed, not the specific past or specific present or specific future that at one time was separate from it.

Your theory on Ultimecia's motivation is ridiculously weak. Mine ties the plot and explains her obsessions cogently. There is a lot of in game evidence to support this theory but I will not get into this here because it has already been mentioned in many other R=U posts.

[Vost]

That's how the game explains it. Ellone tries to save Laguna and uses Squall team to alter history to help him but all she ends up doing by meddling is making sure history stays on course cause it counted on her try and meddle with it. History is basically unchangeable.

Void was suggesting that their is an alternate timeline where Squall failed at a certain event in VIII's story to help Rinoa and in this timeline Rinoa eventually became Ultemacia; but if history is unchangeable and any attempt to altering it makes it happen then this scenario is impossible cause VIII's Law of Time Travel would suggest Squall would either always fail or save her depending on which event is true. VIII's story never mentions alternate time lines being possible. VIII's time travel is pretty straight forward and is very similar to Greek tragedies, in where the hero learns of a terrible prophecy concerning themselves and in the course of trying to change it, they make it come true.

I felt VIII was rather thorough on explaining how time travel worked in its world. I don't understand why people insist on placing alternate theories on how time travel works from other fiction into the VIII mythos.

It is quite disrespectful to butcher someone's handle when in conversation with them. How do you get 'Void' from 'Vost'? If that's the kind of attention you are utilizing, then you may have trouble exploring some of these arguments in depth.

V-O-S-T

[Vost]

Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid.

It's funny how anytime the R=U theory is argued, opponents always use the phrase "Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid," mostly because their own pathetic attempts to hold on to the version of the plot line that makes sense to them has no real or substantial arguments to eradicate the contrary.

The theory has an infinity of data to back it up, I'm afraid, :). To boot, it explains the central villain most perfectly and wraps up everything that was not wrapped up. It is an implication done vaguely on purpose.

-V-O-I-D...whoops, I mean V-O-S-T.

[Aerith's Knight]

Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid.

It's funny how anytime the R=U theory is argued, opponents always use the phrase "Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid," mostly because their own pathetic attempts to hold on to the version of the plot line that makes sense to them has no real or substantial arguments to eradicate the contrary.

The theory has an infinity of data to back it up, I'm afraid, :). To boot, it explains the central villain most perfectly and wraps up everything that was not wrapped up. It is an implication done vaguely on purpose.

-V-O-I-D...whoops, I mean V-O-S-T.

There is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin.

1. If you don't actually have anything to back something up, no real conversation or facts besides the delusions cooked up by playing this game far too much, then yes, it is most likely WRONG! You can theorize that over the edge over the universe nothing exists but pink bunnies with carrots up their bum, just because we can't give hard evidence why it isn't there, and you can't give evidence why it is, doesn't mean it's true.

Your reasoning.. is backwards.

2. There is absolutely no data to back up R=U, that's why it's made fun of. If you want to wrap things up plot-wise with the image spinsels cooked up during your endless hours of triple triad, that's fine, but don't force it on other people.

3. How does it explain the villian in any way?

Ultimecia - wants to kill everything
Rinoa - doesnt want to kill everything.

The only thing we know about Ulti is that she wanted to be ruler of everything or kill everything or something like that, she is probably the least explained villian in the entire FF-series.

[champagne supernova]

Having more than one timelines is not that flawed an idea, as long as they are completely independent, and no movement can occur between the two. However, Vost's theory implies that someone can move between these timelines, which then makes everything fall apart.

So, here's my logic. If there is a different timeline depended on different interactions, there should be an infinite number of parallel timelines, with all different possible interactions (well, maybe not infinite, but as close to infinite that it makes very little difference). Vost's theory is that Rinoa gets caught in one, turns evil, becomes Ultimecia, and compresses all these timelines into one.

Now, back to the canon game script, Squall defeats Ultimecia and prevents time compression completing. However, he still gets lost in time, finding himself at the orphanage he remembers. However, there are a near infinite timelines that have the orphanage being like that (due new timelines being formed when a decision is made, to reflect the other decisions that weren't made). Therefore, Squall could feasibly land up in any one of these infinitely many (the odds of him falling into a specific one is 1/infinity, which is basically 0).

This leads us to what happens at the orphanage. Squall tells Edea the idea about SeeD. According to the canon story, Cid then forms Garden, trainig Squall and SeeDs in general, thereby allowing Squall to defeat Ultimecia, get caught in the time-trap, and speak to Edea.

So, he could land in many of the timelines that don't lead to SeeD, or end up with Squall or Rinoa dying before the game starts, tell Edea this, and nothing happens. But in the original timeline, without Squall being there, the entire game would not happen. This brings up some questions about what happens to Squall. Surely he cannot travel forward in time, because, by landing on the wrong timeline, he destroys the possibility of Rinoa becoming Ultimecia, and therefore the possibility of time compression. He also shouldn't be able to exist with his younger self, so he should fade away. Or, if he could get back to his right time, the world would be entirely different.

However, we know from the game that Squall does travel to the right time, where everything is identical. What this implies is that one cannot compress or move between timelines, because if one could, the game's events could not happen. Because of this, Ultimecia cannot be Rinoa from another parallel timeline, because she would not be able to interact with the original timeline.

That is a headache explanation though. Another simpler question is the simple one of how did Rinoa escape from the Sorceress Memorial?

[Rocket Edge]

Read question 4 in this post. (http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-viii/36341-marginally-official-final-fantasy-viii-faq-thread-read-die.html) Might clear things up.

[Wolf Kanno]

I am sorry for getting your name wrong but seriously? 3 posts telling me I got it wrong? :roll2



The very nature of Time Compression does not necessarily mean that time is being altered, only that it is being compressed into one temporal singularity. Therefore, my theory can still hold next to the idea that the past cannot be changed. This is because it is no longer the 'past' or 'present' or 'future' per se, but rather ONE time. It is THIS one time that is changed, not the specific past or specific present or specific future that at one time was separate from it.

First: I stated an in-game reference that strongly implies that alternate time lines cannot exist in VIII, you are just assuming that their is alternate time lines and you've stated nothing in the game that suggests it otherwise. Even when Dr. Odine mentions how time compression works, he mentions it would only make the past, present, and future into a singularity that can be experienced all at once and life would be extinguished except for her. He does not mention anything about all possible histories. He describes it as a singular line. Squall goes back and plants the knowledge of SeeD into Edea's mind but even this alteration still works with what Ellone stated cause Cid said that SeeD was Edea's idea.

Even if Ultemacia was Rinoa from an alternate Time line, she would only be able to travel back to her own timeline cause the rules of time travel stated by Ellone says you can only send your consciousness back to places and times you have a connection with. She should not be able to travel back into an alternate time past nor should her interference cause Squall to change the past.

Ellone's connection to the past is Laguna; for Ultemacia, it was her power. She gave it to Edea at the end, and this allowed the future Ultemacia to possess her. She wasn't able to control Rinoa until Ultemacia made Edea pass on her powers to her. If Ultemacia was Rinoa, she wouldn't have needed to do this, especially since its shown that the powers of the time traveler comes with them; otherwise Laguna wouldn't be able to use Junction magic.

Ultemacia also constantly puts Rinoa's life in danger and by possessing her, runs the risk of erasing or dramatically altering her existence by doing so, if she was Rinoa. Not only is there no evidence to suggest Ultemacia has no memory of her life as Rinoa but it can also be thought that wiping out her self in the distant past would in turn cause a time paradox. Yet, Rinoa can be blinked out of existence in the final battle. This alone shows how little thought was put into the idea of Time Compression in the game (since it still technically presents the paradox of Ultemacia killing her past self, regardless if its Rinoa or not.), and also shows why the simplistic rules of time travel presented in the story doesn't need to be bogged down by fictional or scientific theory.


Your theory on Ultimecia's motivation is ridiculously weak. Mine ties the plot and explains her obsessions cogently. There is a lot of in game evidence to support this theory but I will not get into this here because it has already been mentioned in many other R=U posts.

Its not my theory, just the only one that vaguely made sense. I personally feel Ultemacia is just a 2-Dimensional villain made in the same vain as the Cloud of Darkness or Zeromus. A plot twist villain that reveals themselves at the end and reveals they have been controlling who we thought were the real villains. Your theory isn't any better imo, cause it completely hinges on assumptions and theories and I don't feel it ties anything up storywise.




It's funny how anytime the R=U theory is argued, opponents always use the phrase "Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid,"
The theory has an infinity of data to back it up, I'm afraid, :). To boot, it explains the central villain most perfectly and wraps up everything that was not wrapped up. It is an implication done vaguely on purpose.


You presented no data, while I presented an in-game reference. How is this not "backing up my argument"? You presented no evidence just silly speculation and downright wishful thinking.

I also feel you should look at yourself in the mirror when you say comments like:

mostly because their own pathetic attempts to hold on to the version of the plot line that makes sense to them has no real or substantial arguments to eradicate the contrary.
- Vost (Void) ;)

Seeing as how you presented no evidence and just gave your own perspective of the ending as evidence, I would say you are guilty of your own words.

The fundamental flaw of R=U is that its such a major plot twist that there is no real reason to keep it hidden with cryptic clues to tell only the most ardent of players the truth. Looking at the series as a whole, FF plots have always been pretty up front and the plot elements never explained are either not important (Who is Gogo?) or badly written (Orphanage!).

A twist like that (R=U) would be more central to the story and even if it were true; I feel it doesn't mesh well cause it presents too many unknown variable. It doesn't explain anything, it just makes you ask more questions. It presents too many variable for plot holes and contradictions (like the ones I pointed out in this post). Its cryptic-ness and contradictory nature makes it logically impossible. Time Compression is also a terrible excuse used to explain things. I feel champaign supernova's post highlighted this as well.

[Skyblade]

Saying that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in no way explains the final villain. In order to accept the theory, a huge number of assumptions must be made, none of which are giving any support by the game. First, you would have to explain how Rinoa lives to exist in Ultimecia's time, "many generations in the future", despite Square-Enix specifically saying sorceresses don't have extended lifespans. Second, you have to give a reason why Rinoa would abandon her peace-loving principles and decide to destroy the world. And that second assumption is actually a whole series of assumptions, as I'll demonstrate here.

I'll use the most common argument, that Squall's death coupled with the prejudice against sorceresses drove her bonkers. In that case, explain the following:

Why does Rinoa not simply die right after Squall does? Even assuming the powers of a sorceress could sustain her life, she knows that it would be simple to give them up and be at peace.

Why does Rinoa not start attacking the world until many generations in the future? Squall certainly didn't live that long. Why hadn't she gone crazy much sooner?

Why would Rinoa, a well respected savior of the world, be persecuted and mistreated, especially when she is close friends with the most powerful nation on the planet and is married to the guy who runs Balamb Garden, a free floating city?

Why would Rinoa forget her past life with Squall in her insanity, prompting her to attack him when he faces Ultimecia at the endgame?

Why would Rinoa forget who she was and attack herself at the endgame? After all, if she simply wanted to do away with herself, she could have passed on her powers and perish.

Why would Rinoa forget her previous journey, her battle against Time Compression, only to decide to initiate it herself?

Why would Rinoa choose to name herself after an enemy who she fought so hard against?

Why would Rinoa remember the name Ultimecia, when she apparently forgot everything connected to the name, such as the fact they were enemies, or that they had fought across time itself?

Why would Rinoa replace the white wings on her outfit with black ones? It may seem a silly or minor point, but since it was one of the major points that started the whole R=U idiocy in the first place, you should explain it. After all, even had she gone completely insane and decided to destroy the world, why would she reverse her outfit's color scheme (red/black instead of blue/white)? It's not as though she would say "ooh, I'm evil, let's go pick out an outfit that matches that".

Any R=U theory is an incredibly long and fragile list of coincidences, none of which has any support in the game. And since each list in the chain builds off the other, the more assumptions you have to make (and there are far more than this), the weaker the argument gets.


And now I'll give your theory similar treatment.


There is a compelling argument in support of one aspect of the R=U theory

No, there isn't.


that involves the explanation of Ultimecia's ostensible vehemence against the world and all in it. Unlike the time sequence presented as canon in the actual story progression of the game, Rinoa, once confined in holding to stem the influence of witches in the world, remains there for an extended period of time.

And your evidence for this alternate timeline is where?


Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted

Again, where is your evidence that this would happen?


her rescue is thwarted by her closest friends

Uh, huh, and why would her friends try to stop her rescue?


and she spends many, many years cursing her abandonment, cursing her captive state.

So, she locked in some form of stasis that not only slows aging, but slows the bodies metabolism down enough that she no longer needs to be fed, yet still has crystal clear thoughts of hatred for her incarceration.


Slowly, she is corrupted by her feelings of desperation; her virtue is weakened and the magic within her begins to degrade her, eventually cementing a new psychology of ire so profound that she is no longer Rinoa but rather Ultimecia.

Where is your evidence that the magic itself corrupts? And why would she choose the name Ultimecia, when that name and the battle against Ultimecia was the direct cause of all her pain?


Some time in the future, an event occurs that sets her free from her prison (an event that can be argued to be hinted upon in the game)

Um, let's see. A small detail in an alternate timeline than that which the game occurs can not be argued to be hinted upon. Since the game doesn't mention alternative timelines at all, it can't hint about an event that occured in a different one.


and she begins to plot her revenge.

Why would she plot revenge instead of choosing to enjoy her new freedom?


However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it,

Why not?


but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches.

Your evidence of this betrayal and brutalization is..?


She hatches the plan of time compression

Even though Time Compression was the cause of all her pain.


and sets events in motion that come to dominate the plot of Final Fantasy 8. So corrupted is she by her hatred that she sees nothing worth saving anymore, nothing worth an ounce of compassion, even if she was capable of such a thing.

And your evidence of this hatred comes from? And why does she choose revenge on the world instead of just on those who betrayed her?


Her 'possession' of Rinoa is a recognition of her former self, even if only on a subconscious level, a self that she now despises and loathes when set in contrast to the powerful being she has become. Nothing is sacred anymore. The world will pay for the death of her liberty; they will pay for their betrayal.

Again, evidence? Also, if she hates her old self so much, why would she choose to possess her and sense all those hated old feelings and emotions so much?


But this time, because of her intervention in the past, things change. Squall and company do rescue Rinoa,

Whereas before they were responsible for stopping the rescue, despite still being "her friends".


before she is lost to time. But things are too late. Time compression has already begun and Ultimecia is invulnerable to the effects of past or future. Understanding her identity with Rinoa is key to the brilliance of the game: It presents an ultimate story of vindication, an ultimate story of love when Squall is reunited with Rinoa and he disavows any prejudice against her regarding her status as a witch. He declares he will stand by her regardless. This time, she is not betrayed. This time, injustice and fear break against the rock of true love.

Yes, it's a lovely fanfic, but unfortunately has absolutely nothing supporting it.


There are many things that I did not mention as far as practical possibility of the R=U theory goes. The above argument however addresses one of the central critiques in the theory. The R=U theory is that much stronger because it supplies a very clear and crisp motivation for Ultimecia's actions, as opposed to her just being a plot device.

Saying that she is Selphie hundreds of years in the future who got upset and decided to destroy the world because there are no more trains also explains the character. That doesn't make it any more plausible or less ridiculous.


Conclusion: R=U is likely or at least somewhat possible. Far from "highly unlikely." This should be changed since it perverts the game's beauty of subtle expression.

No, it isn't.

[The Last Oath]

Ahh hell. again!

[Vost]

There is so much wrong with this post I don't know where to begin.

1. If you don't actually have anything to back something up, no real conversation or facts besides the delusions cooked up by playing this game far too much, then yes, it is most likely WRONG! You can theorize that over the edge over the universe nothing exists but pink bunnies with carrots up their bum, just because we can't give hard evidence why it isn't there, and you can't give evidence why it is, doesn't mean it's true.

Your reasoning.. is backwards.

The backup has been gone over so many times that to regurgitate it here amongst closed and pathetic minds with ways set in stone would be a pointless endeavor. The only delusions regarded here whatsoever are your own attempts to preserve a canonical philosophy that is the furthest thing possible from canon: the R=U theory has wide-ranging support from both sides of the Final Fantasy community, player and creator. Your reference to pink bunnies with carrots up their bum only serves to exemplify your puerile lunacy and sick mentality. I highly recommend you take a basic logic class before you even start attacking someone's reasoning; my claim of truth is open to debate but it is ultimately just that: A claim. Your counter provides absolutely nothing of worth as far as disproving any of my words so why don't you run on home instead of meddling with something far beyond your head?





2. There is absolutely no data to back up R=U, that's why it's made fun of. If you want to wrap things up plot-wise with the image spinsels cooked up during your endless hours of triple triad, that's fine, but don't force it on other people.


There is an insane amount of data to backup the theory, but as stated previously, it has been dissected ad nausea, ad infinitum. Unlike pink bunnies with carrots up their bums, as you so eloquently evoke, the R=U theory makes more sense to the plot of the game than the game does without it. Anything else you'd like to add while your busy making idiotic proclamations? Maybe pink elephants this time? That's a little more common a speaking note to the schizophrenic, wouldn't you say?




3. How does it explain the villian in any way?

Ultimecia - wants to kill everything
Rinoa - doesnt want to kill everything.

The only thing we know about Ulti is that she wanted to be ruler of everything or kill everything or something like that, she is probably the least explained villian in the entire FF-series.

Re-read my explanation a few posts ago; obviously you are just like any other bigoted individual who has the FFVIII plot all mapped out in their heads and refuses to accept any other explanation. The only problem is that the R=U explanation completely obliterates your sad, poor grasp on the universe of FFVIII.

Ta-ta.

-Vost

[Vost]

Saying that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in no way explains the final villain. In order to accept the theory, a huge number of assumptions must be made, none of which are giving any support by the game. First, you would have to explain how Rinoa lives to exist in Ultimecia's time, "many generations in the future", despite Square-Enix specifically saying sorceresses don't have extended lifespans. Second, you have to give a reason why Rinoa would abandon her peace-loving principles and decide to destroy the world. And that second assumption is actually a whole series of assumptions, as I'll demonstrate here.

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The fact that Square-Enix has reported that sorceresses have normal life-spans does not weaken the theory at all; Rinoa's survival is ensured by means of her prison so why are you even bringing this up again? I look forward to your demonstration below but unfortunately you have already commenced on weak ground: My original post, if you go ahead and read it, answers the so-called 'assumptions' you critique hear. Regarding them again shows that you really have no interest in discussing this theory but would rather safeguard your own delusional interpretation of what is and what is not possible or plausible in the game. Only one problem: Your ideas hold no water against the R=U theory. Let's begin dissecting your insanity...





I'll use the most common argument, that Squall's death coupled with the prejudice against sorceresses drove her bonkers. In that case, explain the following:

Why does Rinoa not simply die right after Squall does? Even assuming the powers of a sorceress could sustain her life, she knows that it would be simple to give them up and be at peace.

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Why does Rinoa not start attacking the world until many generations in the future? Squall certainly didn't live that long. Why hadn't she gone crazy much sooner?

Why would Rinoa, a well respected savior of the world, be persecuted and mistreated, especially when she is close friends with the most powerful nation on the planet and is married to the guy who runs Balamb Garden, a free floating city?

This is already explained. She is imprisoned out of prejudice for magic and witches in general before Ultimecia even comes into the picture; she is not the savior of the world at this point, or whatever the heck you're trying to say here. Since you did not read my original post, let me re-post it here for your reading pleasure:

There is a compelling argument in support of one aspect of the R=U theory that involves the explanation of Ultimecia's ostensible vehemence against the world and all in it. Unlike the time sequence presented as canon in the actual story progression of the game, Rinoa, once confined in holding to stem the influence of witches in the world, remains there for an extended period of time. Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted, her rescue is thwarted by her closest friends and she spends many, many years cursing her abandonment, cursing her captive state. Slowly, she is corrupted by her feelings of desperation; her virtue is weakened and the magic within her begins to degrade her, eventually cementing a new psychology of ire so profound that she is no longer Rinoa but rather Ultimecia. Some time in the future, an event occurs that sets her free from her prison (an event that can be argued to be hinted upon in the game) and she begins to plot her revenge.

However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it, but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches. She hatches the plan of time compression and sets events in motion that come to dominate the plot of Final Fantasy 8. So corrupted is she by her hatred that she sees nothing worth saving anymore, nothing worth an ounce of compassion, even if she was capable of such a thing. Her 'possession' of Rinoa is a recognition of her former self, even if only on a subconscious level, a self that she now despises and loathes when set in contrast to the powerful being she has become. Nothing is sacred anymore. The world will pay for the death of her liberty; they will pay for their betrayal.

But this time, because of her intervention in the past, things change. Squall and company do rescue Rinoa, before she is lost to time. But things are too late. Time compression has already begun and Ultimecia is invulnerable to the effects of past or future. Understanding her identity with Rinoa is key to the brilliance of the game: It presents an ultimate story of vindication, an ultimate story of love when Squall is reunited with Rinoa and he disavows any prejudice against her regarding her status as a witch. He declares he will stand by her regardless. This time, she is not betrayed. This time, injustice and fear break against the rock of true love.

Your argument about Rinoa being persecuted as 'savior of the world' is a non sequitor, which means that 'it does not follow,' just in case you did not know. It goes to show that you have preconceived notions regarding the R=U theory and did not even bother to read what I originally wrote in its defense. Why are you even arguing if you do not know the argument? Do you realize that in a court of law you would be utterly ridiculed as incompetent and possibly insane? Let's continue on to the rest of your garbage post:




Why would Rinoa forget her past life with Squall in her insanity, prompting her to attack him when he faces Ultimecia at the endgame?

Why would Rinoa forget who she was and attack herself at the endgame? After all, if she simply wanted to do away with herself, she could have passed on her powers and perish.

Why would Rinoa forget her previous journey, her battle against Time Compression, only to decide to initiate it herself?

Why would Rinoa choose to name herself after an enemy who she fought so hard against?

Why would Rinoa remember the name Ultimecia, when she apparently forgot everything connected to the name, such as the fact they were enemies, or that they had fought across time itself?

Why would Rinoa replace the white wings on her outfit with black ones? It may seem a silly or minor point, but since it was one of the major points that started the whole R=U idiocy in the first place, you should explain it. After all, even had she gone completely insane and decided to destroy the world, why would she reverse her outfit's color scheme (red/black instead of blue/white)? It's not as though she would say "ooh, I'm evil, let's go pick out an outfit that matches that".


All these questions have already been answered. Here, I will re-post my original post a SECOND time in hopes that you will perhaps read it and stop making an idiot out of yourself:

There is a compelling argument in support of one aspect of the R=U theory that involves the explanation of Ultimecia's ostensible vehemence against the world and all in it. Unlike the time sequence presented as canon in the actual story progression of the game, Rinoa, once confined in holding to stem the influence of witches in the world, remains there for an extended period of time. Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted, her rescue is thwarted by her closest friends and she spends many, many years cursing her abandonment, cursing her captive state. Slowly, she is corrupted by her feelings of desperation; her virtue is weakened and the magic within her begins to degrade her, eventually cementing a new psychology of ire so profound that she is no longer Rinoa but rather Ultimecia. Some time in the future, an event occurs that sets her free from her prison (an event that can be argued to be hinted upon in the game) and she begins to plot her revenge.

However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it, but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches. She hatches the plan of time compression and sets events in motion that come to dominate the plot of Final Fantasy 8. So corrupted is she by her hatred that she sees nothing worth saving anymore, nothing worth an ounce of compassion, even if she was capable of such a thing. Her 'possession' of Rinoa is a recognition of her former self, even if only on a subconscious level, a self that she now despises and loathes when set in contrast to the powerful being she has become. Nothing is sacred anymore. The world will pay for the death of her liberty; they will pay for their betrayal.

But this time, because of her intervention in the past, things change. Squall and company do rescue Rinoa, before she is lost to time. But things are too late. Time compression has already begun and Ultimecia is invulnerable to the effects of past or future. Understanding her identity with Rinoa is key to the brilliance of the game: It presents an ultimate story of vindication, an ultimate story of love when Squall is reunited with Rinoa and he disavows any prejudice against her regarding her status as a witch. He declares he will stand by her regardless. This time, she is not betrayed. This time, injustice and fear break against the rock of true love.






[I]Any R=U theory is an incredibly long and fragile list of coincidences, none of which has any support in the game. And since each list in the chain builds off the other, the more assumptions you have to make (and there are far more than this), the weaker the argument gets.


Incorrect. The R=U theory is a few short paragraphs of simplicity. It wraps up all the loose ends of the game and fits in perfectly with the canonical plot already presented. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but R=U is more or less TRUE, so the sooner you realize the weakness of your counter-arguments the sooner you'll stop criticizing the beauty of a great game.





No, there isn't.

Ummm...yes there is.





Her aging process thus slowed or even completely haltedAgain, where is your evidence that this would happen?


This is straight from the game...maybe you should actually play the game before discussing this?




and she begins to plot her revenge.Why would she plot revenge instead of choosing to enjoy her new freedom?

It's called vengeance, ever heard of it?




However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it,Why not?

Because she has become consumed by wrath. All existence, not one existence, will suffer her. Hence Time Compression.





but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches.Your evidence of this betrayal and brutalization is..?

The evidence is in the prejudice against her kind that resulted in many, many years of imprisonment. Anti-magic and anti-sorceress sentiments are scattered throughout the game.


She hatches the plan of time compressionEven though Time Compression was the cause of all her pain.







Yes, it's a lovely fanfic, but unfortunately has absolutely nothing supporting it.

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Conclusion: R=U is likely or at least somewhat possible. Far from "highly unlikely." This should be changed since it perverts the game's beauty of subtle expression.No, it isn't.[/quote]

Yes, it is.

-Vost

[Vost]

I am sorry for getting your name wrong but seriously? 3 posts telling me I got it wrong? :roll2



The very nature of Time Compression does not necessarily mean that time is being altered, only that it is being compressed into one temporal singularity. Therefore, my theory can still hold next to the idea that the past cannot be changed. This is because it is no longer the 'past' or 'present' or 'future' per se, but rather ONE time. It is THIS one time that is changed, not the specific past or specific present or specific future that at one time was separate from it.

First: I stated an in-game reference that strongly implies that alternate time lines cannot exist in VIII, you are just assuming that their is alternate time lines and you've stated nothing in the game that suggests it otherwise. Even when Dr. Odine mentions how time compression works, he mentions it would only make the past, present, and future into a singularity that can be experienced all at once and life would be extinguished except for her. He does not mention anything about all possible histories. He describes it as a singular line. Squall goes back and plants the knowledge of SeeD into Edea's mind but even this alteration still works with what Ellone stated cause Cid said that SeeD was Edea's idea.

Even if Ultemacia was Rinoa from an alternate Time line, she would only be able to travel back to her own timeline cause the rules of time travel stated by Ellone says you can only send your consciousness back to places and times you have a connection with. She should not be able to travel back into an alternate time past nor should her interference cause Squall to change the past.

Ellone's connection to the past is Laguna; for Ultemacia, it was her power. She gave it to Edea at the end, and this allowed the future Ultemacia to possess her. She wasn't able to control Rinoa until Ultemacia made Edea pass on her powers to her. If Ultemacia was Rinoa, she wouldn't have needed to do this, especially since its shown that the powers of the time traveler comes with them; otherwise Laguna wouldn't be able to use Junction magic.

Ultemacia also constantly puts Rinoa's life in danger and by possessing her, runs the risk of erasing or dramatically altering her existence by doing so, if she was Rinoa. Not only is there no evidence to suggest Ultemacia has no memory of her life as Rinoa but it can also be thought that wiping out her self in the distant past would in turn cause a time paradox. Yet, Rinoa can be blinked out of existence in the final battle. This alone shows how little thought was put into the idea of Time Compression in the game (since it still technically presents the paradox of Ultemacia killing her past self, regardless if its Rinoa or not.), and also shows why the simplistic rules of time travel presented in the story doesn't need to be bogged down by fictional or scientific theory.


Your theory on Ultimecia's motivation is ridiculously weak. Mine ties the plot and explains her obsessions cogently. There is a lot of in game evidence to support this theory but I will not get into this here because it has already been mentioned in many other R=U posts.Its not my theory, just the only one that vaguely made sense. I personally feel Ultemacia is just a 2-Dimensional villain made in the same vain as the Cloud of Darkness or Zeromus. A plot twist villain that reveals themselves at the end and reveals they have been controlling who we thought were the real villains. Your theory isn't any better imo, cause it completely hinges on assumptions and theories and I don't feel it ties anything up storywise.




It's funny how anytime the R=U theory is argued, opponents always use the phrase "Your theory has little to back it up I'm afraid,"
The theory has an infinity of data to back it up, I'm afraid, :). To boot, it explains the central villain most perfectly and wraps up everything that was not wrapped up. It is an implication done vaguely on purpose.


You presented no data, while I presented an in-game reference. How is this not "backing up my argument"? You presented no evidence just silly speculation and downright wishful thinking.

I also feel you should look at yourself in the mirror when you say comments like:

mostly because their own pathetic attempts to hold on to the version of the plot line that makes sense to them has no real or substantial arguments to eradicate the contrary.
- Vost (Void) ;)

Seeing as how you presented no evidence and just gave your own perspective of the ending as evidence, I would say you are guilty of your own words.

The fundamental flaw of R=U is that its such a major plot twist that there is no real reason to keep it hidden with cryptic clues to tell only the most ardent of players the truth. Looking at the series as a whole, FF plots have always been pretty up front and the plot elements never explained are either not important (Who is Gogo?) or badly written (Orphanage!).

A twist like that (R=U) would be more central to the story and even if it were true; I feel it doesn't mesh well cause it presents too many unknown variable. It doesn't explain anything, it just makes you ask more questions. It presents too many variable for plot holes and contradictions (like the ones I pointed out in this post). Its cryptic-ness and contradictory nature makes it logically impossible. Time Compression is also a terrible excuse used to explain things. I feel champaign supernova's post highlighted this as well.

You entirely miss the point: Ultimecia attacking Rinoa in Time Compression would have zero effect on Ultimecia herself since she the idea of a time shock wave traveling into the future and destroying her (Ultimecia) does not exist. There is no future in Time Compression- there is only on unified time that follows from no past and goes to no future. What is so difficult to understand about this? And this is by the way, an in-game reference so cut the crap here, lol.

You are vehemently attacking the theory without anything to really discredit it. The ideas behind R=U have support and make sense. Hence it is not 'highly unlikely' but rather 'somewhat likely.'

[Skyblade]

The next time your formatting tags are longer than your argument, I'm going to accept that as an indication that you realize you've lost and are just hoping you can get us to give up by making your posts annoying to quote.

Also, learn to use the "Edit" button. It's there for a reason.



Saying that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in no way explains the final villain. In order to accept the theory, a huge number of assumptions must be made, none of which are giving any support by the game. First, you would have to explain how Rinoa lives to exist in Ultimecia's time, "many generations in the future", despite Square-Enix specifically saying sorceresses don't have extended lifespans. Second, you have to give a reason why Rinoa would abandon her peace-loving principles and decide to destroy the world. And that second assumption is actually a whole series of assumptions, as I'll demonstrate here.

Actually, it explains the final villain in every possible way imaginable and it does not require any unnecessary assumptions that are not already either warranted by the game's canon plot or completely plausible by the game's canon plot. It is already explained how Rinoa exists in Ultimecia's time period: Did you not read my original explanation a few posts ago? It quite clearly relates the phenomenon of time compression to the probability of both Rinoa and Ultimecia sharing one time. To even ask this question shows you know next to nothing about the subject, so why open yourself up to the devastating attack that I am about to unleash?

The fact that Square-Enix has reported that sorceresses have normal life-spans does not weaken the theory at all; Rinoa's survival is ensured by means of her prison so why are you even bringing this up again? I look forward to your demonstration below but unfortunately you have already commenced on weak ground: My original post, if you go ahead and read it, answers the so-called 'assumptions' you critique hear. Regarding them again shows that you really have no interest in discussing this theory but would rather safeguard your own delusional interpretation of what is and what is not possible or plausible in the game. Only one problem: Your ideas hold no water against the R=U theory. Let's begin dissecting your insanity...

And now show me what in-game piece of evidence indicates that the imprisonment extends the life of the sorceress. The only sorceress we have seen imprisoned in game was Adel, who was imprisoned for 17 years, well within an average human lifespan. Thus there is no support for the life-sustaining properties of the imprisonment, and your entire argument falls apart.




I'll use the most common argument, that Squall's death coupled with the prejudice against sorceresses drove her bonkers. In that case, explain the following:

Why does Rinoa not simply die right after Squall does? Even assuming the powers of a sorceress could sustain her life, she knows that it would be simple to give them up and be at peace.

This is not even an argument...why would she die when Squall does? Is her life-force linked to the life-force of Squall's? Honestly, where do you even come up with this garbage? Your question is predicated on faulty logic. Where have I said that Squall's death drove anyone 'bonker's'? What the hell are you talking about? Did you not read what I wrote a few posts ago when I systematically explained the validity of the R=U theory?

It's called suicide, genius. If she's so borken up with grief, why doesn't she just kill herself, especially since her normal lifespan is pretty much up anyway.





Why does Rinoa not start attacking the world until many generations in the future? Squall certainly didn't live that long. Why hadn't she gone crazy much sooner?

Why would Rinoa, a well respected savior of the world, be persecuted and mistreated, especially when she is close friends with the most powerful nation on the planet and is married to the guy who runs Balamb Garden, a free floating city?

This is already explained. She is imprisoned out of prejudice for magic and witches in general before Ultimecia even comes into the picture; she is not the savior of the world at this point, or whatever the heck you're trying to say here. Since you did not read my original post, let me re-post it here for your reading pleasure:

And your EVIDENCE for this imprisonment is where? We played the game. She isn't imprisoned until after Ultimecia possesses her, and even then it's only for about 5 seconds. You're making up an entire alternate timeline with NO EVIDENCE SUPPORTING IT.


Your argument about Rinoa being persecuted as 'savior of the world' is a non sequitor, which means that 'it does not follow,' just in case you did not know. It goes to show that you have preconceived notions regarding the R=U theory and did not even bother to read what I originally wrote in its defense. Why are you even arguing if you do not know the argument? Do you realize that in a court of law you would be utterly ridiculed as incompetent and possibly insane? Let's continue on to the rest of your garbage post:

I have preconceived notions that the events in the game took place in that game universe, yes. Surprising how that happens. When the game shows us her being imprisoned after the Ragnarok scene, I assume that is actually what happened, not that there is an entire alternate timeline Square wrote without even mentioning that is secretly responsible for absolutely everything in the plot. Sorry about that.



Why would Rinoa forget her past life with Squall in her insanity, prompting her to attack him when he faces Ultimecia at the endgame?

Why would Rinoa forget who she was and attack herself at the endgame? After all, if she simply wanted to do away with herself, she could have passed on her powers and perish.

Why would Rinoa forget her previous journey, her battle against Time Compression, only to decide to initiate it herself?

Why would Rinoa choose to name herself after an enemy who she fought so hard against?

Why would Rinoa remember the name Ultimecia, when she apparently forgot everything connected to the name, such as the fact they were enemies, or that they had fought across time itself?

Why would Rinoa replace the white wings on her outfit with black ones? It may seem a silly or minor point, but since it was one of the major points that started the whole R=U idiocy in the first place, you should explain it. After all, even had she gone completely insane and decided to destroy the world, why would she reverse her outfit's color scheme (red/black instead of blue/white)? It's not as though she would say "ooh, I'm evil, let's go pick out an outfit that matches that".


All these questions have already been answered. Here, I will re-post my original post a SECOND time in hopes that you will perhaps read it and stop making an idiot out of yourself:

Noooooooo, you posted a way things might have happened, but since your entire little tirade is occuring in a timeline that doesn't even exist in-game, there is no evidence for any of it. Saying that things might have occured one way does not force things to have occured that way. If everything went right, yes, your result might have happened. But if any one of the things that I mentioned did not go just the right way, your entire theory falls apart. You make an assumption that each one of those events happen. Your theory is built on it. You assume that she was imprisoned in your alternate timeline. You assume that she despaired because of this. You assume that that despair drives her crazy and makes her try to take over the world. BUT YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE!

Oh, and BTW, posting your ideas over and over doesn't make them right either.



Any R=U theory is an incredibly long and fragile list of coincidences, none of which has any support in the game. And since each list in the chain builds off the other, the more assumptions you have to make (and there are far more than this), the weaker the argument gets.

Incorrect. The R=U theory is a few short paragraphs of simplicity. It wraps up all the loose ends of the game and fits in perfectly with the canonical plot already presented. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but R=U is more or less TRUE, so the sooner you realize the weakness of your counter-arguments the sooner you'll stop criticizing the beauty of a great game.

It may be short to write out (R=U. See? Very short), but to hold consistency with the game's storyline, an incredible amount of assumptions must be made. At the end of the game, Rinoa is a happy girl living with the guy she loves. Any R=U theory must make assumptions about what would change that situation, how it would change it, why it would preserve her life until the future, why should would forget everything about her past, why should would choose the name of her former enemy, and why she would attempt to destroy everything. Your theory gives a list of possible ways that could occur, but there is no evidence supporting any of it.





Her aging process thus slowed or even completely haltedAgain, where is your evidence that this would happen?

This is straight from the game...maybe you should actually play the game before discussing this?

Actually, it's not. Play the game, read the Ultimania, read the tutorial info. Absolutely nothing says that the sorceress seals preserve the sorceresses life.




and she begins to plot her revenge.Why would she plot revenge instead of choosing to enjoy her new freedom?

It's called vengeance, ever heard of it?

You have yet to give any in-game evidence showing why she would choose vengeance though. Her personality is not exactly a very vengeful type, and since there are thousands of different choices that she could make upon be freed, why are you only saying that vengeance is the only choice she could make?




However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it,Why not?

Because she has become consumed by wrath. All existence, not one existence, will suffer her. Hence Time Compression.

Again, your in-game evidence that her thinking turned this way is where?




but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches.Your evidence of this betrayal and brutalization is..?

The evidence is in the prejudice against her kind that resulted in many, many years of imprisonment. Anti-magic and anti-sorceress sentiments are scattered throughout the game.

Certainly. But the only thing close to "brutalization" is a 5 minute sequence where she is imprisoned (by her own free will) by Esthar, and even then she is treated with respect and dignity. When she is broken free, no one after that shows any prejudice towards her, and it is unlikely that the majority of the world even knows that she is a sorceress.



She hatches the plan of time compressionEven though Time Compression was the cause of all her pain.

Not sure why you quoted this but didn't try to answer it. Maybe you lost track of it in all those stupid tags. Maybe you don't have an answer. Or, maybe you just didn't mean to. I really have no clue, but it's still a valid point.



Yes, it's a lovely fanfic, but unfortunately has absolutely nothing supporting it.

Lol, unfortunately for your side, it is much more than a fanfic. The ideas are well-supported and the conclusions fit in the time line and character of the game. Your arguments so far are nothing but a series of questions that I and others who defend the R=U theory have already answered.

Absolutely nothing you have said fits in the time line. You said that she was persecuted and imprisoned before Ultimecia even shows up. We know that's not true from the in game timeline. You said that her friends fought to keep her locked up. We know that the in game timeline goes against that as well.




Conclusion: R=U is likely or at least somewhat possible. Far from "highly unlikely." This should be changed since it perverts the game's beauty of subtle expression.No, it isn't.

Yes, it is.

-Vost

Sorry, you still have a bunch of assumptions, but no evidence.

[Vost]

The next time your formatting tags are longer than your argument, I'm going to accept that as an indication that you realize you've lost and are just hoping you can get us to give up by making your posts annoying to quote.

Actually, I've already won the argument: All I am doing here is humoring your ridiculous attempt at salvaging what little you have left of your reputation and your ideas. Also, increasing the font of your letters is not a very appropriate way to add length to your response. Overall, your notions are all stale and very poorly defended. May I suggest you take a class in logic so that you can meet the general level of intelligence that is required to communicate on these boards? Thanks.




Also, learn to use the "Edit" button. It's there for a reason.


I've used the edit button before many times; what evidence do you have that I do not know how to use it? Do you even have evidence that I have not used it? For someone who makes such a big deal about 'evidence' you really don't seem to grasp the concept that well when the shoe is on the other foot, do you? Another sign of mild retardation- I would suggest pills, psychotherapy, and more education. Thanks once again. :)





Saying that Rinoa becomes Ultimecia in no way explains the final villain. In order to accept the theory, a huge number of assumptions must be made, none of which are giving any support by the game. First, you would have to explain how Rinoa lives to exist in Ultimecia's time, "many generations in the future", despite Square-Enix specifically saying sorceresses don't have extended lifespans. Second, you have to give a reason why Rinoa would abandon her peace-loving principles and decide to destroy the world. And that second assumption is actually a whole series of assumptions, as I'll demonstrate here.


Actually, it explains the final villain in every possible way imaginable and it does not require any unnecessary assumptions that are not already either warranted by the game's canon plot or completely plausible by the game's canon plot. It is already explained how Rinoa exists in Ultimecia's time period: Did you not read my original explanation a few posts ago? It quite clearly relates the phenomenon of time compression to the probability of both Rinoa and Ultimecia sharing one time. To even ask this question shows you know next to nothing about the subject, so why open yourself up to the devastating attack that I am about to unleash?

The fact that Square-Enix has reported that sorceresses have normal life-spans does not weaken the theory at all; Rinoa's survival is ensured by means of her prison so why are you even bringing this up again? I look forward to your demonstration below but unfortunately you have already commenced on weak ground: My original post, if you go ahead and read it, answers the so-called 'assumptions' you critique hear. Regarding them again shows that you really have no interest in discussing this theory but would rather safeguard your own delusional interpretation of what is and what is not possible or plausible in the game. Only one problem: Your ideas hold no water against the R=U theory. Let's begin dissecting your insanity...


And now show me what in-game piece of evidence indicates that the imprisonment extends the life of the sorceress. The only sorceress we have seen imprisoned in game was Adel, who was imprisoned for 17 years, well within an average human lifespan. Thus there is no support for the life-sustaining properties of the imprisonment, and your entire argument falls apart.

That has already been presented in the game and I am not going to go through it again. If you would like to know the exact mechanics of the Sorceress Memorial, I suggest you actually play the game because it seems like you have never even done so in the first place, mmmkay? Good boy.







I'll use the most common argument, that Squall's death coupled with the prejudice against sorceresses drove her bonkers. In that case, explain the following:

Why does Rinoa not simply die right after Squall does? Even assuming the powers of a sorceress could sustain her life, she knows that it would be simple to give them up and be at peace.

This is not even an argument...why would she die when Squall does? Is her life-force linked to the life-force of Squall's? Honestly, where do you even come up with this garbage? Your question is predicated on faulty logic. Where have I said that Squall's death drove anyone 'bonker's'? What the hell are you talking about? Did you not read what I wrote a few posts ago when I systematically explained the validity of the R=U theory?It's called suicide, genius. If she's so borken up with grief, why doesn't she just kill herself, especially since her normal lifespan is pretty much up anyway.




Why does Rinoa not start attacking the world until many generations in the future? Squall certainly didn't live that long. Why hadn't she gone crazy much sooner?

Why would Rinoa, a well respected savior of the world, be persecuted and mistreated, especially when she is close friends with the most powerful nation on the planet and is married to the guy who runs Balamb Garden, a free floating city?

This is already explained. She is imprisoned out of prejudice for magic and witches in general before Ultimecia even comes into the picture; she is not the savior of the world at this point, or whatever the heck you're trying to say here. Since you did not read my original post, let me re-post it here for your reading pleasure:And your EVIDENCE for this imprisonment is where? We played the game. She isn't imprisoned until after Ultimecia possesses her, and even then it's only for about 5 seconds. You're making up an entire alternate timeline with NO EVIDENCE SUPPORTING IT.


Ultimecia alters the time line of Rinoa and Squall that would naturally progress if there were no interference form other times. The alternate time line is presented through both vague and clear points in the game and the evidence for it is what orignally brought the R=U theory into existence. THERE IS ON OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT IT.





I have preconceived notions that the events in the game took place in that game universe, yes. Surprising how that happens. When the game shows us her being imprisoned after the Ragnarok scene, I assume that is actually what happened, not that there is an entire alternate timeline Square wrote without even mentioning that is secretly responsible for absolutely everything in the plot. Sorry about that.

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Why would Rinoa forget her past life with Squall in her insanity, prompting her to attack him when he faces Ultimecia at the endgame?

Why would Rinoa forget who she was and attack herself at the endgame? After all, if she simply wanted to do away with herself, she could have passed on her powers and perish.

Why would Rinoa forget her previous journey, her battle against Time Compression, only to decide to initiate it herself?

Why would Rinoa choose to name herself after an enemy who she fought so hard against?

Why would Rinoa remember the name Ultimecia, when she apparently forgot everything connected to the name, such as the fact they were enemies, or that they had fought across time itself?

Why would Rinoa replace the white wings on her outfit with black ones? It may seem a silly or minor point, but since it was one of the major points that started the whole R=U idiocy in the first place, you should explain it. After all, even had she gone completely insane and decided to destroy the world, why would she reverse her outfit's color scheme (red/black instead of blue/white)? It's not as though she would say "ooh, I'm evil, let's go pick out an outfit that matches that".

Noooooooo, you posted a way things [I]might have happened, but since your entire little tirade is occuring in a timeline that doesn't even exist in-game, there is no evidence for any of it. Saying that things might have occured one way does not force things to have occured that way. If everything went right, yes, your result might have happened. But if any one of the things that I mentioned did not go just the right way, your entire theory falls apart. You make an assumption that each one of those events happen. Your theory is built on it. You assume that she was imprisoned in your alternate timeline. You assume that she despaired because of this. You assume that that despair drives her crazy and makes her try to take over the world. BUT YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE!


Nooooooo, if everything is as I have presented, it is not a question of whether it 'might' happen or not, it is a question of why stubborn people such as yourself do not see what is plainly evident. None of the objections you bring up are valid because they have all been explained perfectly by the R=U theory, with an OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF EVIDENCE IN THE GAME. Go read all of the posts regarding R=U and maybe you can come back and actually argue reasonably as opposed to saying 'Blah blah blah I don't see it.'

No assumptions were ever made: every presentation is a reasonable conclusion based on the evidence and plot of the game. Hence, you ASSUME that I ASSUME, making your own accusation turn back upon yourself.

Oh, and BTW, posting your ideas over and over doesn't make them right either.




[I]Any R=U theory is an incredibly long and fragile list of coincidences, none of which has any support in the game. And since each list in the chain builds off the other, the more assumptions you have to make (and there are far more than this), the weaker the argument gets.

Incorrect. The R=U theory is a few short paragraphs of simplicity. It wraps up all the loose ends of the game and fits in perfectly with the canonical plot already presented. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but R=U is more or less TRUE, so the sooner you realize the weakness of your counter-arguments the sooner you'll stop criticizing the beauty of a great game.It may be short to write out (R=U. See? Very short), but to hold consistency with the game's storyline, an incredible amount of assumptions must be made. At the end of the game, Rinoa is a happy girl living with the guy she loves. Any R=U theory must make assumptions about what would change that situation, how it would change it, why it would preserve her life until the future, why should would forget everything about her past, why should would choose the name of her former enemy, and why she would attempt to destroy everything. Your theory gives a list of possible ways that could occur, but there is no evidence supporting any of it.

At the end of the game, she does not become Ultimecia because the events have changed BECAUSE of Ultimecia's interference; you simply are not acknowledging the effect of time compression which is very clearly evidenced in the game itself. Hey, do you know what else is short? The word cat, or the word fox, or the word Joe. Try spelling those out and having fun with them since you seem to like short things...








Her aging process thus slowed or even completely haltedAgain, where is your evidence that this would happen?

This is straight from the game...maybe you should actually play the game before discussing this?Actually, it's not. Play the game, read the Ultimania, read the tutorial info. Absolutely nothing says that the sorceress seals preserve the sorceresses life.

Actually, it is. Once again, I recommend you play the game yourself and see how this statement is true. Go on...I'm not going anywhere. I'll check back on you as soon as you're ready.





and she begins to plot her revenge.Why would she plot revenge instead of choosing to enjoy her new freedom?

It's called vengeance, ever heard of it?You have yet to give any in-game evidence showing why she would choose vengeance though. Her personality is not exactly a very vengeful type, and since there are thousands of different choices that she could make upon be freed, why are you only saying that vengeance is the only choice she could make?

Why would she choose vengeance? You obviously have no conception of the world; how old are you, 12? Reasonable conclusions from implied or inherent points taken directly from the game's plot stand, regardless of the absence of direct presentation. It is never directly stated that Laguna is Squall's father yet the presentation is there. It is of a similar nature to the R=U theory, except that R=U is deeper and purposely obscured in the plot.







However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it,Why not?

Once again, I am not about to teach you about the world; go ask your parents if you want to learn about the birds and the bees.




but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches.Your evidence of this betrayal and brutalization is..?


I've already covered this in the reasonable implication clause of my former posts. Also, if you're going to use an ellipsis to appear clever since your arguments are obviously garbage, at least use it correctly: it is 3 dots...not 2...not 1.





She hatches the plan of time compressionEven though Time Compression was the cause of all her pain.Not sure why you quoted this but didn't try to answer it. Maybe you lost track of it in all those stupid tags. Maybe you don't have an answer. Or, maybe you just didn't mean to. I really have no clue, but it's still a valid point.

Stupid tags? Lol...you're a funny kid. So when your counter-arguments are failing you start criticizing the methodology of your opponent's post? My tags are just fine- the only problem you should worry about is making your arguments cogent as opposed to someone who is appearing to put up one straw man after another.





Yes, it's a lovely fanfic, but unfortunately has absolutely nothing supporting it.

Lol, unfortunately for your side, it is much more than a fanfic. The ideas are well-supported and the conclusions fit in the time line and character of the game. Your arguments so far are nothing but a series of questions that I and others who defend the R=U theory have already answered.Absolutely nothing you have said fits in the time line. You said that she was persecuted and imprisoned before Ultimecia even shows up. We know that's not true from the in game timeline. You said that her friends fought to keep her locked up. We know that the in game timeline goes against that as well.

Actually, absolutely everything I have said fits in the time line. What's more is that the R=U theory collects the scattered in game evidence and presents a persuasive explanation to Ultimecia and her relation to the time of Squall and Rinoa.






Sorry, you still have a bunch of assumptions, but no evidence.
Uh, no I do not but you can keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better, lol.

-Vost

P.S. I look forward to your response. I'll put in as many tags as I can next time- I see how much you love them.


I'm sorry, um, triple squares, but I dont understand that writing, so that's not proof to me.

Sir Bahamut and others have gone to great lengths intelligently documenting postulated evidence that R=U is just not probable.

Sir Bahamut's arguments have been invalidated, partially by me. Ultimecia being Rinoa is not only possible and plausible but greatly probable.

-Vost

[Shlup]

I can't decide whether to lol or ;_;.

[The Man]

When in doubt, facepalm.

http://fools-gold.org/forum/images/smilies/facepalm4.jpg

[Wolf Kanno]

I would be crying...

******************************************

Vost, reading your post I've come to two theories of my own concerning you:

A: Your a person who hates the R=U theory and the people who promote it and purposely made some secondary account to show how silly these people are

B: You don't read posts and choose not to answer direct questions for some silly reason. Maybe cause you can't accept the fact you may be wrong and instead prefer to belittle people for disagreeing with you instead of backing up your statements in fear of being proven wrong.

You go on and on about evidence but present none. That is not debating, that is sticking your fingers in your ears and humming to yourself so reality can't come in. Grow up and take this seriously or STFU.

You state your theory over and over but when we present in-game evidence that makes not only alternate time lines impossible but shows that Ultemacia meddling in the past alters Rinoa's future is impossible because THE GAME STATES ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO CHANGE THE COURSE OF HISTORY. You ignore this and go on how perfect the theory is. I've read at least a dozen different theories about R=U yours is just a variation of three other I've read and they were all proven wrong as well. SE has never gone on record to state the truth and the smurfing Ultimania doesn't state anything concerning it but lays out the rest of the plot.

As for Time Compression making Ultemacia immune to killing her past self, its never stated if it could or not but that's because time compression is detailed in a rather short paragraph by Dr. Odine. The Tutorial/Information guide simply states:

"A complete mystery. Various states of past, present and
future mixed together".

This is why I generally hate Mcguffins cause crackpots can use it as an excuse to explain all the logical inconsistencies in there theories without presenting any evidence. Which is basically what you are doing by ignoring elements in the plot to support your own theory cause you
can't fathom that Ultemacia is Two dimensional villain and VIII's plot ispoorly written cause it allows for such theories to exist in the first placewithout any clear evidence showing it can be one way or another.

Ellone states twice that it is impossible to change the past. That history cannot be changed by any meddling. Even the two things that happen in the past (Squall giving Edea the idea about SeeD and Ultemacia giving Edea her powers) do not conflict at all with something stated TWICE in the game. Which proves that alternate time lines are impossible, especially since the very idea of Compressing time should logically mean that time has a finite value and is set in stone. Not the single time line and all the possibilities that may or may not have happened. VIII is very clear about the belief of Fate and that history is irreversible. Besides, there is no scene,
dialogue or even a written scrap of info that even suggests anything in your theory is capable of happening since it constantly conflicts with other facts stated in the game and has to utilize the McGuffin (Time Compression)to explain how it works without any real evidence.

So I ask you to either back down or finally show this evidence that is so overwhelming that its beneath you to have to explain. As far as I'm concerned, your just running from the truth.

[NeoTifa]

This topic again?! *facepalm*

[Rantz]

I love this thread. :heart:

[Jiro]

People can argue all they like, but there's not enough evidence to completely prove or disprove the theory. In all likelihood, Square put in some inconsistencies like the coloured wings just to make this happen.
At least try and argue respectfully guys :D

[blackmage_nuke]

Heres a crazy idea for a motive for R=U.

IF Rinoa somehow found a way to live generations into the future and there was no Ultimacia maybe she comes to realise that there is no Ultimacia, and she will then realise that it was because of Ultimacia that Squall and Rinoa were brought together. If there was no Ultimacia then they may never have fallen in love and thus she becomes Ultimacia to complete the cycle. She never really intends to compress time, its all an act. And being hundreds of years old she may have accepted it was time for her to die.

That being said I DONT BELIEVE R=U

But im probably not the right person to pick up subtle hints, it took me 2 play throughs to figure out that General Caraway and President Deling were two different people. (It confused me as to why Rinoa tried to kidnap her own father)
edit: and i just realised why they called it LUNAtic pandora 2 minutes ago.

[demondude]

I think somebody is getting a tad cranky over a video game.

[Skyblade]

edit: and i just realised why they called it LUNAtic pandora 2 minutes ago.

That's actually the origin of the word "lunatic" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunatic).

See also: lunatic (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lunatic)

[Wolf Kanno]

I love this thread. :heart:

We aim to please ;)

[champagne supernova]

Writing in a fancy prose style does not make an argument valid, nor does ridiculing (without much basis) someone who attempts to disprove it. You are also yet to deal with my disproof of your theory. Fair enough, it was quite tedious, but I will restate it here in a more simplistic, and hopefully clearer manner.

So, firstly I will assume that alternative timelines do exist and can interact with one another (i.e one can move between different timelines). As you will see, I will show that this assumption cannot hold.

So, by your theory, whenever something happens which does not happen in the game, an alternative timeline is opened up. But of course, timelines are not like trees - they cannot branch from a single point. Therefore, every time a new timeline opens, it basically is identifcal to the point where the change occurs, and from then starts to alter. Of course, every minor change creates a whole new timeline (from some immensely important decision, to an ant going in another direction). Therefore there are basically an infinite number of alternate timelines.

So, there is one timeline that brings us to the earliest point of time that the game shows - Edea's house when Squall & Ultimecia arrive from the future. From there onwards, there are new timelines opening up everywhere as different decisions are made in the world.

One timeline (or a subset of timelines where the decisions made make almost no difference in the world - like the any example earlier) leads us through the game's story. Another subset are the one's that Vost uses in his theory, where Rinoa gets angry and compresses time, etc etc.

In Vost's alternative timeline, Rinoa compresses time, and as Vost writes in his theory, compresses all the alternative timelines together - therefore allowing Squall from one timeline to go to defeat Rinoa/Ultimecia in another. Then they have their big battle (so much fun) and Squall then gets lost in time and arrives at the orphanage - at the earliest timeframe in the game.

But, and here is where it gets tricky, Squall could end up in many timelines which aren't his. As I mentioned earlier, every time a decision is made, an alternative timeline is created, which is identical to the original up to that point. So all the timelines which are created due to differences that occur after that scene in that game are identical until that point. So, Squall went and looked for a point in his mind - but there are an infinite number of timelines that have that exact same point.

Therefore, the probability of him landing up in the right timeline (or right subset of timelines) is not 100%, because the game timelines are a subset of all the alternative timelines - and therefore are smaller in number. The likelihood, due to the number of timelines being created, is very slim.

If Squall does not land up in the right timeline, he will then tell Edea his bit about SeeD and Garden, and it won't land up anywhere - because he's not in the right timeline. Meanwhile, in the original timeline, everything will start falling apart, because without Squall telling Edea about SeeD and Garden, none of it will have been started, and therefore none of the game would have actually happened.

Then, if we follow the game, Squall then returns to his right time, and everything is the way it should be. This implies that he landed in the right timeline. But, if the timelines were interacting with each other, this would be highly unlike. Actually, mathematically it would be completely unlike, because it is a cyclical loop which goes on infinitely. And (0<p<1) to the power of infinity (which is the probability of him landing in the right timeline ever single time) is 0, or a 0% chance. Therefore, the only way what happened could have happened is if the timelines do not interact at all, ever.

So, with the help of some maths and statistical techniques, one has to refute the assumption that alternative timelines can be moved between. With this assumption refuted, the rest of Vost's theory cannot hold, because the so-called Evil Rinoa/Ultimecia of an alternative timeline cannot have any influence over the game's story.

So, one can argue from a logical point of view the other parts of Vost's theory, but this is a solid mathematical refutation of a core premise of the theory. So, I think that this R=U theory cannot hold.

If there is any element of this mathematical argument that is unclear, let me know. I know it is very tedious and mechanical, but it does all follow. I could probably put it into mathematical notation, although it would then be unreadable to anyone without some serious mathematical background.

[NeoTifa]

This thread sucks. Why don't you just accept the fact the Ultimecia is actually Jenova and stfu? :P

[blackmage_nuke]

Lavos is Jenova!

[Ultima Shadow]

You're all wrong, this is what happened:

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/9992/howitreallyhappened.png

[Sir Bahamut]

I can't decide whether to lol or ;_;.

I gotta admit I ended up lolling.

---

[Wolf Kanno]

Its obvious that we are all wrong and the truth is that Ultimecia is Squall. I will now present the S=U theory.

Ultimecia is actually Squall in the future who forever punishes himself due to his lack of strength and in ability to protect anyone. Ultimecia's true goal is not Time Compression as much as its to keep "himself" in an eternal time loop.

The proof is that Ultimecia never directly tries to kill Squall when hshe had the chance on several occasions when he possessed Edea and Rinoa. Ultemacia also chooses to create Griever from Squall's mind and use its power, Ultimecia being actually Squall would also believe that Griever is the Ultimate GF and thus creates him to crush Squall's hope since Ultemacia knows how to screw with his head.

The wings Ultimecia uses are also a refernce to each of the witches that Squall faces, he wears two wings on the back to represent Rinoa, their gnarled and long wingspan represents the similarities to Adel's and the black feathers are from the feathers adorned on Edea's dress. Thus his design is an inspiration from the wing symbolism common in all the witches in the game.

Ultimecia's final lines in her/his ultimate form are also evidence.

Reflect on your...
Childhood...
Your sensations...
Your words...
Your emnotions...
Time...
it will not wait...
no matter...
...how hard you hold on...
It escapes you...

In my theory its obvious that this line is directed at Squall as a last ditch effort to try and make Squall into Ultemacia eventually and continue the time loop of punishment that he created for himself. He asks himself to reflect upon his childhood where he was abonadoned by his father and "big sister" and lost his mother. A childhood that fuels Squall's anti-social behaviour and self loathing. The very elements that personify Ultemacia her/himslef.

How does Squall become a Sorceror/Sorceress?

The ending sequence of the game in which Squall visits his past self and gives Edea the idea of SeeD shows through her dialogue that any of the children could accept the power. Squall gained his power from Rinoa in an alternate timeline in which he doesn't save her. This is presented in the sequence of the ending's dream in which Rinoa's suit breaks in outer space. This is not an illusion caused by Time Compression but rather Squall reliving the memory of the alternate timeline in which he doesn't save her. This leads to his emotional breakdown at the end cause he finally realizes the truth that he is the cause of everyone's misery. Its only When Rinoa saves him that he is able to finally forgive himself.


How did Squall get into the future?
Obviously, Squall was sealed away perhaps by his own will in the cryo freezer Esthar created. In the games Timeline (we'll call it T2 since its the secondary timeline and T1 will be the alternate timeline), Rinoa is sealed away but Squall is the only one who comes and rescues her, which leads us to believe that the others would not be so inclined to save Squall of whom the party has a much rockier relationship with than Rinoa. This is how Squall is able to make it to the future, and beat the "human lifespan' issue of the Ultimania.

Why does he seek to destroy the past?
His frozen slumber is not enough to punish him and eventually Squall falls into depression and madness over the guilt of not saving Rinoa. He instead chooses to punish himslef, to do this he must utilize Time compression to keep an eternal time loop. Time travel is normally impossible but through Time compression, Ultemacia can skip through the "folded"pockets of time and directly affect things. Ultemacia, creates the scenario to lead up to Squall's eventually failure and eventual acquisition of power. He possesses Edea and starts the Galbadia conflict, eventually possessing Rinoa to keep his future self from harm and to place Rinoa in mortal danger that will lead to her death and Squall gaining her powers. After Squall is frozen, Ultemacia possesses Ellone and starts Time Compression which allows Ultemacia to travel back in time and tell Edea about SeeDs. This is why Ultemacia appears at the same place as Squall in the ending cause its the place Ultemacia has to directly affect except in the ending time has been altered.

Why not directly control Squall or Ellone?
Due to the butterfly effect, Ultimecia must be careful not to enter his own body. Though he may have lived the life, memory is a funny a thing. In order to keep his own existence as Ultimecia a reality, he cannot take the chance to alter Squall's feeling more than he should. Thus Ultimecia only indirectly affect Squall by putting pressure on him and placing Rinoa and the others in danger. Ultimecia already knows how Squall will react regardless of the situation and as long as it fuels his anger and inadequecy then Ultemacia's existene is safe to continually punish himself.

Ellone is more for the Time Compression itself and he does eventually possess her but only after reaching the events in which S becomes U.

Why a woman?
Partially to hide his identity, but looking at Squall's past and general psychology, its obvious he has the traits of a man who has Image dissociation. He hates woman yet idolizes them. In the dialogue, he is generally meaner to Rinoa, Quistis, and Selphie. More so than other woman in the game. He only seems to idolize his "big sister". From his past, we see he has abandonement issues concerning women and that they always seemed more powerful to him. The few sorceress' he met are strong willed women. Even Quistis and Rinoa prove to be rather bossy types that force him to go along and with Squall's desire to be strong, does it not seem obvious he would choose a woman to be the ultimate form of power when becomes omnipotent.

Through the poers shown of changing Edea's appearance to bringing thought to life, its obvious that its not impossible for Squall to change his appearance. Though it must be noted that Ultimecia reatins the feathered ruffles from his bomber jacket on his dress in her alternate form. He changed the color from white to black in order to signify his fall from grace.

Why does time change in the course of the game?
This is partially due to the butterfly effect. Squall obviously cannot control every factor and obviously screwing with the space/time continuum would result in minor factors changing that eventually lead to Squall finally succeeding in rescuing Rinoa in space. This completely alters events and forces Ultimecia to go ahead with Time Compression to stop the party. This is very important as its the only way to save his current state before the time backlash he created changes the future. His final moments battling himself are spent not only intimidating himslef and destroying his self confidence but also to try and bring forth the elements that will lead Squall onto the road of becoming Ultimecia. This is reflected in Ultimecia's final words. Even though he's killed, Squall still goes along with his noraml plan and uses Time Compression to visit Edea in the past except it also launches the past Squall to the same moment. The past Squall tells Edea about SeeD but his future self in its dead and limited capacity is only able to transfer his powers to Edea instead of his past self.

;););););););););););););););););););););););)

[demondude]

Squall is a homosexual with a furry hood.

[Mirage]

These fanfics are awesome!!

[NeoTifa]

I hate you. *steals Squall*

[Wolf Kanno]

I just found it funny that by taking scenes out of context and placing other ideas of time travel into the story, it was rather easy to twist the plot and show it can also make Squall into Ulty. Kinda like another theory... ;)

In fact, using circumstantial, evidence I felt S=U is more probable than R=U cause Squall wouldn't need to fall far from becoming Ulty personality wise while Rinoa requires a tremendous amount of off screen shenanigans to make her go crazy in the theory. Course, both theories have the same fundamental flaws in logic.

[Serapy]

There is a compelling argument in support of one aspect of the R=U theory that involves the explanation of Ultimecia's ostensible vehemence against the world and all in it. Unlike the time sequence presented as canon in the actual story progression of the game, Rinoa, once confined in holding to stem the influence of witches in the world, remains there for an extended period of time. Her aging process thus slowed or even completely halted, her rescue is thwarted by her closest friends and she spends many, many years cursing her abandonment, cursing her captive state. Slowly, she is corrupted by her feelings of desperation; her virtue is weakened and the magic within her begins to degrade her, eventually cementing a new psychology of ire so profound that she is no longer Rinoa but rather Ultimecia. Some time in the future, an event occurs that sets her free from her prison (an event that can be argued to be hinted upon in the game) and she begins to plot her revenge.

However, she does not merely wish to punish the world now as she exists in it, but to punish the world forever, especially the past where she believes she was betrayed by her confidantes and brutalized by those who hate magic and witches. She hatches the plan of time compression and sets events in motion that come to dominate the plot of Final Fantasy 8. So corrupted is she by her hatred that she sees nothing worth saving anymore, nothing worth an ounce of compassion, even if she was capable of such a thing. Her 'possession' of Rinoa is a recognition of her former self, even if only on a subconscious level, a self that she now despises and loathes when set in contrast to the powerful being she has become. Nothing is sacred anymore. The world will pay for the death of her liberty; they will pay for their betrayal.

But this time, because of her intervention in the past, things change. Squall and company do rescue Rinoa, before she is lost to time. But things are too late. Time compression has already begun and Ultimecia is invulnerable to the effects of past or future. Understanding her identity with Rinoa is key to the brilliance of the game: It presents an ultimate story of vindication, an ultimate story of love when Squall is reunited with Rinoa and he disavows any prejudice against her regarding her status as a witch. He declares he will stand by her regardless. This time, she is not betrayed. This time, injustice and fear break against the rock of true love.

There are many things that I did not mention as far as practical possibility of the R=U theory goes. The above argument however addresses one of the central critiques in the theory. The R=U theory is that much stronger because it supplies a very clear and crisp motivation for Ultimecia's actions, as opposed to her just being a plot device.

Conclusion: R=U is likely or at least somewhat possible. Far from "highly unlikely." This should be changed since it perverts the game's beauty of subtle expression.

-Vost

I absolutely agree. The "highly unlikely." text should be permanently removed from the relevant list in the FAQ thread. Why? The intention of the text obviously holds one particularly element; encouraging certain individuals to disbelieve the R=U theory. Or at least trying to correct their uncertainty about it.

One person telling the others that the whole theory is highly unlikely is an indirect way. The direct version of that text would be saying that the whole theory is actually not true. Under such circumstances, this act voids the purpose of one certain thing; using your interpretations to enjoy the game. This is one of the fundamental elements in the whole Final Fantasy universe. Just because you think something must not be right (R=U), it does not mean you have the right to tell the others that the theory is wrong.

My post only applies to situations that certain elements of a story not providing pure or strong evidence.

To certain individuals who were throwing "gimme evidence", "your theory doesn't provide evidence", "not enough" texts. You have to realise that the R!=U theory did not provide pure or strong evidence either. I have read the Japanese book and it still is not enough. The book only provides very general information about the game, it doesn't provide strong information about in-game individuals.

The R=U and R!=U sides both have thier faults, and you have the very right to believe whatever you want. Let's leave it at that. But I still request one of the staff members to remove the "highly unlikely" text from the FAQ thread.

[qwertysaur]

Alright, here is what my interpretation about the original post. When using Ellone's ability to send ones mind into the past, and by extension the device that Ultimecia uses, one takes the body of the person in the past as their own during that time. So during the course of the game, we can have
S=L
Z=W
S=K
U=E
U=R
ect.

They are not saying that one person is the other. One person acts through the other is the only relationship. So for example when fighting against Edea in disks 1 and 2, while the actuall body is that of Edea, but the mind is always Ultimecia. So one can think of Edea as being Ultimecia during that time. :p

[champagne supernova]

Serapy, Vost's theory doesn't hold. I disproved it with the use of mathematics and statistics. As much as you can argue on factual arguments and still get very likely or very unlikely conclusions from them, you cannot argue against maths. It holds - always. So, you cannot use Vost's argument as an example about why R=U, because it is fundamentally flawed.

And the flaw is inherent in all R=U arguments. Rinoa cannot exist in Ultimecia's time. The argument had its merits, until Square-Enix explicitly stated that sorceress' have normal human life spans. That is a fundamental flaw, and Vost's argument to try negate this flaw is itself fundamentally flawed.

So, when an idea is shown to be fundamentally flawed, it is very lucky to have it written down as very unlikely in the FAQ.

[Roogle]

I am certain that the Rinoa and Ultimecia theory has reached the scenario writers and developers for Final Fantasy VIII. If their intent was to make this obscure theory a fact in canon, they would have utilized Dissidia Final Fantasy to at least tease or entice the fanbase to rethink this theory, right?

[Wolf Kanno]

Dissidia actually explains Ultimecia's motive a bit better since we get to hear her talk about it but long time supporters will be annoyed that she's like any other villain.

She only wants to do Time Compression to become a god and be worshiped forever. There is no dialogue concerning her true identity being someone we know. She's just a crazy sorceress from the future who is obsessed with Time and world domination. She spends more time trying to conspire against her fellow members of Chaos (mostly CoD, Kefka, Kuja, and eventually Sephiroth) cause their goals to annihilate everything kinda screws up their plans for eternal power and glory.

The only thing R=U conspiracy theorist have is that Ulty's special weapons just happen to be named after Rinoa's equipment since every villains special equipment is named after items from their own games regardless if they exist or actually used them.

So no, the game actually doesn't hint really to anything except something blatantly obscure (as usual) that fans of the theory will take out of context for the sake of their argument. :roll2

[Serapy]

Serapy, Vost's theory doesn't hold. I disproved it with the use of mathematics and statistics.

No, on paper, you did not disprove his theory at all. You need real and strong-suggestive evidence to do so. The reason why you have claimed that his theory is incorrect is because you have interpreted relevant things the different way. Like what Squall said, people fight with each other because they have different views; this is exactly what happening in this thread.

By the way, most things in the Final Fantasy universe are quite different compared to our very reality; such as the way how mathematics and physics are used in between FF8 and our reality and so on.

Why don't you prove that Rinoa is indeed not Ultimecia? On paper, you will get the same answer, regardless of whether or not you may think that R!=U sounds better.

Like what I have said before, R=U and R!=U cannot be proved or disproved 100%. SquareSoft has done that part. There are countless of things that have to be considered as well, for example: SquareSoft obviously knows about the R=U theory, so if it's wrong, then why didn't they clarify so? So this theory is intended to happen because FF8 is not a straightforward game. I have said it so many times now ...



As much as you can argue on factual arguments and still get very likely or very unlikely conclusions from them, you cannot argue against maths. It holds - always. So, you cannot use Vost's argument as an example about why R=U, because it is fundamentally flawed.

Oh-- Actually, in simple Maths; you do need evidence to make the result mathematically correct. Your post came from your speculation, that's pretty much it. As far as things goes, speculations don't work that well in Maths because they are so random. In this case, there's no evidence to fully disprove or prove R=U and R!=U. It's all open to interpretation.



And the flaw is inherent in all R=U arguments. Rinoa cannot exist in Ultimecia's time. The argument had its merits, until Square-Enix explicitly stated that sorceress' have normal human life spans. That is a fundamental flaw, and Vost's argument to try negate this flaw is itself fundamentally flawed.

No. There's nothing in thier statement that is aimed at Rinoa or even Ultimecia. Still not enough, and you know that there are additional methods to get into the certain timeline.



So, when an idea is shown to be fundamentally flawed, it is very lucky to have it written down as very unlikely in the FAQ.

Actually, R!=U has its faults as well. So, in that simple logic, declaring R=U as 'highly unlikely' with no mention of R!=U is more like flawed.

[Wolf Kanno]

http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module/93231/FacePalm_qjgenth.jpg

[champagne supernova]

Serapy, Vost's theory doesn't hold. I disproved it with the use of mathematics and statistics.

No, on paper, you did not disprove his theory at all. You need real and strong-suggestive evidence to do so. The reason why you have claimed that his theory is incorrect is because you have interpreted relevant things the different way. Like what Squall said, people fight with each other because they have different views; this is exactly what happening in this thread.

By the way, most things in the Final Fantasy universe are quite different compared to our very reality; such as the way how mathematics and physics are used in between FF8 and our reality and so on.

Um, how exactly is the mathematical system different to the normal mathematical system? As far as I recall, 2 follows 1, and 3 follows 2, etc etc. And 2 > 1, therefore there is ordinality. Hence, if I drew 7 Ultima, and then the next time, I drew 5 Ultimas, I drew 2 less Ultimas. The first time meant I could cast it 7 times, the second 5, and the difference was -2. All of these numbers have a significant meaning. Therefore, there is a cardinal number system. The moment you have a cardinal number system, most (if not all) mathematical laws hold (like addition, subtraction, multiplication, logs, antilogs, calculus).

So, mathematics is definitely very close, if not identical to our mathematics.



Why don't you prove that Rinoa is indeed not Ultimecia? On paper, you will get the same answer, regardless of whether or not you may think that R!=U sounds better.

Okay. A sorceress has a normal human lifespan. Rinoa is a sorceress. Therefore, Rinoa has a normal lifespan. The maximum of a normal lifespan is realistically 100. Therefore Rinoa's life constraint is:
X+Y <= 100 (where X is how long she has lived, and Y is the amount of years she will live in the future).
X = 17 (read the game manual).
Therefore Y <= 83.

The distance between the beginning of the game and Ultimecia's time is
Z = B - A, where Z is the distance, B the year of Ultimecia and A the year of the beginning of the game.
Ultimecia lives many generations in the future. A generation is generally considered 30 years. So Z >= 30M, where M is how you define many. Personally, I'd say 10 is many, although from the most minimal point of view, 5 would do.

Therefore, Z >= 30 x 5
Z >= 150

But for Rinoa to be Ultimecia, she must be able to at least live until Ultimecia's time, i.e. Y > Z.
But the maximum of Y is 113 and the minimum of Z is 150, and therefore Y > Z can never hold.

Therefore Rinoa <> Ultimecia (sorry, no unequal sign available).





As much as you can argue on factual arguments and still get very likely or very unlikely conclusions from them, you cannot argue against maths. It holds - always. So, you cannot use Vost's argument as an example about why R=U, because it is fundamentally flawed.

Oh-- Actually, in simple Maths; you do need evidence to make the result mathematically correct. Your post came from your speculation, that's pretty much it. As far as things goes, speculations don't work that well in Maths because they are so random. In this case, there's no evidence to fully disprove or prove R=U and R!=U. It's all open to interpretation.

No, in this case it is important to point out that the alternative timeline cannot exist, because it is not possible. How does my post come from speculation? Please highlight the speculative elements of my post. And mathematics is not random.





And the flaw is inherent in all R=U arguments. Rinoa cannot exist in Ultimecia's time. The argument had its merits, until Square-Enix explicitly stated that sorceress' have normal human life spans. That is a fundamental flaw, and Vost's argument to try negate this flaw is itself fundamentally flawed.

No. There's nothing in thier statement that is aimed at Rinoa or even Ultimecia. Still not enough, and you know that there are additional methods to get into the certain timeline.


Actually, as far as I'm aware, there aren't any methods to get into a timeline that infinitely loops. If you could, it would badly mess up with the circle of events, and would mess up the loop and quite possibly tear open the fabric of space and time. But the loop that we play through seems quite perfect, and the fabric of time & space is still intact. But if you have any theories on how to get into a certain timeline, please let us all know.





So, when an idea is shown to be fundamentally flawed, it is very lucky to have it written down as very unlikely in the FAQ.

Actually, R!=U has its faults as well. So, in that simple logic, declaring R=U as 'highly unlikely' with no mention of R!=U is more like flawed.

R<>U is not fundamentally flawed. I just proved it above. R=U is fundamentally flawed, as I proved previously. Therefore, something that is fundamentally flawed cannot be considered at all when the alternative is fundamentally flawless.


http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module/93231/FacePalm_qjgenth.jpg

I concur.

[Sir Bahamut]

Okay, there's a lot of dodgy mathematics floating about here (I study mathematics btw) which really isn't necessary.

Serapy loves pointing out the obvious point that nothing is disproven 100%. This is a literary debate, not mathematics so you're not going to get anything 100% disproven. The FAQ says what's true, namely that it's "highly unlikely". In fact, I would say it's about as proven wrong as it can possibly be in the context of literary interpretation in the sense that if you accept R=U as a valid interpretation you might as well accept Irvine=Ultimecia or Cactuar=Ultimecia as valid interpretations. Why?

Firstly, there's no good evidence. Vost and Serapy both like mentioning "evidence" without ever specifying it. In fact that's because all 'hints' found to support R=U have been debunked, or shown to not actually imply R=U (in the sense that it's much more likely that they imply something quite different). Serapy or Vost cannot name any good evidence because it doesn't exist. There are at most one or two hints left which haven't been blown out of the water, and those do not make up enough evidence for such a strong statement as R=U.

Secondly, the game not only offers no evidence, it throws every conceivable obstacle in the way of making R=U even possible to begin with. No extended sorceress lifespan, no mention of Adel's seal preventing aging, Ultimecia actively tries to kill herself and Squall and the game AND the Ultimania all imply a quite different background for Ultimecia. That alternate background implied is not, as Serapy claims, flawed. There's no flaws whatsoever in it and Serapy if you think otherwise I challenge you to name even one. The details can of course be found in the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ at GameFAQs.

So we have "R=U", a theory which requires you to literally conjure a scenario from out of nowhere to even make it possible, and even if you do so there aren't any good hints at all implying the theory to be true anyway. In addition we're given a perfectly plausible background for Ultimecia which is even supported by the Ultimania AND Dissidia.

Saying "nothing's been 100% disproven" anyway is all well and good, but I maintain that there's no meaningful difference between R=U and Irvine=U. As such the theory is most definitely "extremely unlikely".

[NeoTifa]

http://img.qj.net/uploads/articles_module/93231/FacePalm_qjgenth.jpg

This is my response to the whole thread.

[Serapy]

Serapy, Vost's theory doesn't hold. I disproved it with the use of mathematics and statistics.

No, on paper, you did not disprove his theory at all. You need real and strong-suggestive evidence to do so. The reason why you have claimed that his theory is incorrect is because you have interpreted relevant things the different way. Like what Squall said, people fight with each other because they have different views; this is exactly what happening in this thread.

By the way, most things in the Final Fantasy universe are quite different compared to our very reality; such as the way how mathematics and physics are used in between FF8 and our reality and so on.

Um, how exactly is the mathematical system different to the normal mathematical system? As far as I recall, 2 follows 1, and 3 follows 2, etc etc. And 2 > 1, therefore there is ordinality. Hence, if I drew 7 Ultima, and then the next time, I drew 5 Ultimas, I drew 2 less Ultimas. The first time meant I could cast it 7 times, the second 5, and the difference was -2. All of these numbers have a significant meaning. Therefore, there is a cardinal number system. The moment you have a cardinal number system, most (if not all) mathematical laws hold (like addition, subtraction, multiplication, logs, antilogs, calculus).

So, mathematics is definitely very close, if not identical to our mathematics.

I've only mentioned most of the things in the Final Fantasy universe; not exactly everything. You are talking about how mathematics are used in the gameplay side and I agree with that. However, this thread is about R=U, which is more connected with the story rather than the gameplay. Do you acknowledge that the story and gameplay are not exactly the same?

Regarding the gameplay, the accepted or "normal" mathematics definitely have to be used due to two reasons; the origin of the way how the PS system codes came from Maths (as well as binary and so on) and if it didn't use proper Maths; we would be scratching our heads and good chances are that the battles won't reach satisfying results. The quests side also can be applied to this post.

As for the story sequences, it's the same thing. The developers have had to code to make the next sequence appear and so on.

However, proper Maths don't work that well in the story sense (e.g. how the incidents have happened, how did specific physics occur and so on.) The writers of FF8 just put whatever they want in a very sound sense, writing a story does not have to apply to proper Maths; it's not nessecary.

The story did not give us exact numbers, especially when it comes to R=U. You are only using your numbers to aid your interpretation. Using numbers that were not visible in the game tend to be random and therefore may result in either yes or no answer.






Why don't you prove that Rinoa is indeed not Ultimecia? On paper, you will get the same answer, regardless of whether or not you may think that R!=U sounds better.

Okay. A sorceress has a normal human lifespan. Rinoa is a sorceress. Therefore, Rinoa has a normal lifespan. The maximum of a normal lifespan is realistically 100. Therefore Rinoa's life constraint is:
X+Y <= 100 (where X is how long she has lived, and Y is the amount of years she will live in the future).
X = 17 (read the game manual).
Therefore Y <= 83.

This is more complicated than you may think. I'm surprised that you didn't use your Maths to analyse the other factors that may link Rinoa to Ultimecia; instead you only have analysed one thing.







As much as you can argue on factual arguments and still get very likely or very unlikely conclusions from them, you cannot argue against maths. It holds - always. So, you cannot use Vost's argument as an example about why R=U, because it is fundamentally flawed.

Oh-- Actually, in simple Maths; you do need evidence to make the result mathematically correct. Your post came from your speculation, that's pretty much it. As far as things goes, speculations don't work that well in Maths because they are so random. In this case, there's no evidence to fully disprove or prove R=U and R!=U. It's all open to interpretation.

No, in this case it is important to point out that the alternative timeline cannot exist, because it is not possible. How does my post come from speculation? Please highlight the speculative elements of my post. And mathematics is not random.

Where did I mention this "alternative timeline" text that you speak of? R!=U and R=U are not entirely based on this timeline by the way.

If you are stating things that were not visually available from the game; your statement will then become just speculation. If the game explained more, then perhaps we will have a greater chance of reaching the satisfying results but that does not necessarily mean that such results will become 100% proved or disproved. To make it 100% proved or disproved, the plot of FF8 would become very different and offical statements from SE would be required. The entire story is absolutely fantastic, let's leave it alone.







And the flaw is inherent in all R=U arguments. Rinoa cannot exist in Ultimecia's time. The argument had its merits, until Square-Enix explicitly stated that sorceress' have normal human life spans. That is a fundamental flaw, and Vost's argument to try negate this flaw is itself fundamentally flawed.

No. There's nothing in thier statement that is aimed at Rinoa or even Ultimecia. Still not enough, and you know that there are additional methods to get into the certain timeline.


Actually, as far as I'm aware, there aren't any methods to get into a timeline that infinitely loops. If you could, it would badly mess up with the circle of events, and would mess up the loop and quite possibly tear open the fabric of space and time. But the loop that we play through seems quite perfect, and the fabric of time & space is still intact. But if you have any theories on how to get into a certain timeline, please let us all know.

Remember that U=A thread I've made? I have mentioned something about this. However, I rather go with the mythologies, not the way how timelines exactly work.







So, when an idea is shown to be fundamentally flawed, it is very lucky to have it written down as very unlikely in the FAQ.

Actually, R!=U has its faults as well. So, in that simple logic, declaring R=U as 'highly unlikely' with no mention of R!=U is more like flawed.

R<>U is not fundamentally flawed. I just proved it above. R=U is fundamentally flawed, as I proved previously. Therefore, something that is fundamentally flawed cannot be considered at all when the alternative is fundamentally flawless.

No, you didn't prove that at all. Remember that there are so many factors, not just human life spans-- Just because you have analysed one thing, it doesn't mean you have proved the theory 100%.



So we have "R=U", a theory which requires you to literally conjure a scenario from out of nowhere to even make it possible, and even if you do so there aren't any good hints at all implying the theory to be true anyway. In addition we're given a perfectly plausible background for Ultimecia which is even supported by the Ultimania AND Dissidia

You have mentioned something like "SE humored us just by replacing the names of Rinoa weapons with Ultimecia's weapons; ridiculous" and now you said this whole thing is supported by Dissidia? Having played the game myself and taken Ultimecia's statements seriously, I still am not surprised.

This is true though, you have to admit. Most of you people think R!=U is true simply because it does sound make more sense than R=U. That's it.

[Sir Bahamut]

You have mentioned something like "SE humored us just by replacing the names of Rinoa weapons with Ultimecia's weapons; ridiculous" and now you said this whole thing is supported by Dissidia? Having played the game myself and taken Ultimecia's statements seriously, I still am not surprised.

That was my initial reaction upon hearing the weapon names issue, true. But then I learned that plenty of Dissidia characters use weapons belonging to other characters, and that Ultimecia otherwise doesn't act in any way which implies she is Rinoa. In fact, as has been pointed out, she just confirms the motives offered by the game and the Ultimania, which don't have anything to do with Rinoa.

You ask several times why, if Square didn't intend for R=U, didn't they go ahead and say "It's not true", arguing that this implies the game is very open to interpretation and that R=U is hinted at. That's just flat out wrong bad analysis though. Of course Square aren't going to straight out say "it's wrong" since the fact that we still debate this generates publicity for the game! And here's a question back at you: if they did intend for R=U, why didn't they put anything at all in the Ultimania which hints at it, and why did they instead have the Ultimania imply something quite different (and in addition make the theory almost impossible via the lifespan comment)? Further, why didn't they make it clear in Dissidia? It was a perfect opportunity to put some serious hints in, but they didn't. Why? It goes both ways. You can't appeal to Square's lack of confirmation as an argument in any way.


This is true though, you have to admit. Most of you people think R!=U is true simply because it does sound make more sense than R=U. That's it.

Um, and what exactly is wrong with believing the option which makes sense rather than the option which doesn't? I don't know what you're even trying to say here. R=U has been shown to lack evidence and require a whole lot of made up assumptions to even work in the first place, while R=/=U has been shown to make perfect sense, and to be implied by the game, the Ultimania and Dissidia. Is that not good enough of a reason for believing R=/=U to you?

If we're going to start accepting theories which don't make sense, which is what you seem to be saying, then you've got to make room for inane theories like Irvine=Ulty. And frankly that's silly.

[Roogle]

Dissidia actually explains Ultimecia's motive a bit better since we get to hear her talk about it but long time supporters will be annoyed that she's like any other villain.

She only wants to do Time Compression to become a god and be worshiped forever. There is no dialogue concerning her true identity being someone we know. She's just a crazy sorceress from the future who is obsessed with Time and world domination. She spends more time trying to conspire against her fellow members of Chaos (mostly CoD, Kefka, Kuja, and eventually Sephiroth) cause their goals to annihilate everything kinda screws up their plans for eternal power and glory.

This is the type of information that is important to keep in mind. In games like Dissidia, the developers usually try to keep factual story and character traits in tact.

In Capcom Fighting Jam, for example, we can see characters from various Street Fighter games react in a factual manner despite the non-canonical nature of the game. Based on the way that games like this are usually handled, I am very certain that the Rinoa and Ultimecia theory would have been referenced if it were meant to be something that the player should contemplate.

[champagne supernova]

Applied mathematics is a method of taking real-world problems and putting it in a mathematical context, so it is easier to solve (although I don't study Mathematics, I study Economics, so I do a hell of a lot of applied maths).

You asked me to prove R<>U through the use of Mathematics. So I put the argument that Rinoa cannot exist in Ultimecia's due to the huge timegap between them - and the fact that there was no natural way for Rinoa to last until then. The Ultimania explicitly stated that a sorceress has a normal lifespan, which kind of implies that there is no magical way to extend one's life, otherwise sorceress' would use these magical techniques to extend their lives. This is reinforced by Adel scouring the world, searching for a successor.

And you cannot argue about years either. Laguna in the flashback is 27, and is 44 in the normal time of the game. These 17 years also represent Squall's age (unsurprisingly, as he fathered Squall at the time of the flashbacks). So, years and aging is normal either.

Another piece of evidence why Rinoa is not Ultimecia is the fact that everyone has to believe in the other so that they continue to exist in Ultimecia's time - if they stopped believing in each other, they would fade away, as they cannot exist in Ultimecia's time (this is said by Laguna, by the way).

So there is no normal way for Rinoa to live long enough to be Ultimecia. This would appear to be a very very very good proof as to why Rinoa is not Ultimecia.

I also cannot see a Rinoa from an alternative timeline manipulating the canon timeline, simply because the canon timeline is full of paradoxes. SeeD was formed because Squall fell into a time warp and met Edea in the past. Squall only fell into that time warp because he was a SeeD. This is a circular loop. Any interference from an outside source would cause some influence in this loop, and cause it to stop working properly.

Basically, if someone wants to prove R=U, then they must show how Rinoa can exist in Ultimecia's time, without messing up the delicate balance of the circular loop of the game. Playing the game we can see that this loop does hold, and therefore the destiny of all the main charcters is predetermined. This is also a massive theme of the game, reinforcing the fact that R<>U.

So, show me that Rinoa can exist in Ultimecia's time. Because until anyone can, R=U is a highly highly unlikely theory.