von Beethoven?

[The Ceej]

His name was Ludwig von Beethoven. Yet, we cut the "von" out of his last name in America. Somehow we don't cut it out of von Braun's name, or anyone else that I know of, for that matter (I'm sure someone will find someone else and correct me), so why cut it out of von Beethoven's name?

I don't know about you guys, but as far as I'm concerned, he's not Beethoven, but von Beethoven.

EDIT: My real name is The von Ceej, so from now on, you can just call me von Ceej for short.

[Roto13]

Maybe we drop it because his name was Ludwig van Beethoven.

[rubah]

von Braun has a pleasing example of assonance that van Beethoven lacks.

[Rantz]

I agree with RuLa up there. It's all about the ephoniousness.

[Momiji]

I've never heard his name without von before.

[The Ceej]

After a quick search, I found out his name is, indeed, Ludwig van Beethoven. Well, then. That means that my Music Appreciation text book back in college was wrong. Not only that, but it means that Ludwig von Koopa was not named after the composer in question. Maybe Morton Downey Koopa Jr. wasn't named after anyone famous as well.

Maybe everything I learned in college was wrong.

You can still call me von Ceej, though.

[Momiji]

Or maybe you're, as usual, trying too hard to disprove things over a simple exception. Everyone with at least basic musical knowledge knows his name is Ludwig von Beethoven.

[The Ceej]

Or maybe you're, as usual, trying too hard to disprove things over a simple exception. Everyone with at least basic musical knowledge knows his name is Ludwig von Beethoven.

That's what I thought. But then they told me it was Ludwig van Beethoven, and I did a search. Either they were right or the first ten sites I saw, including Wikipedia, in the internet search were wrong.

How am I the one trying to disprove things when I was the one who was willing to admit I was wrong based on my findings? And how is this "usual" for me?

[Bunny]

I believe at one point he faked the "von" himself because it denotes nobility or some such as that. Regardless, this thread is silly and pointless.

[Heath]

Yeah, I've always heard/read his name as Ludwig van Beethoven. Perhaps people don't mention it because it was faked as Bunny said, or that that's simply the name he's known by. After all, most other people I can think of with 'von' or 'van' tend to be known with the 'von' or 'van' in place, such as the footballer (Andy) van Der Meyde or the Nazi (Joachim) von Ribbentop, so he's an exception to the rule apparently.

I don't see how it matters though. We all know who we're talking about whether we use 'Beethoven' or 'van Beethoven.' Or even 'von Beethoven' ;)

[Aerith's Knight]

Maybe we drop it because his name was Ludwig van Beethoven.

Incidentally, "van" is a dutch addition to a last name. :)

like my last name has "van der"

But yes, this is a well-known fact in the Netherlands.

[Roto13]

Or maybe you're, as usual, trying too hard to disprove things over a simple exception. Everyone with at least basic musical knowledge knows his name is Ludwig von Beethoven.

That's what I thought. But then they told me it was Ludwig van Beethoven, and I did a search. Either they were right or the first ten sites I saw, including Wikipedia, in the internet search were wrong.

How am I the one trying to disprove things when I was the one who was willing to admit I was wrong based on my findings? And how is this "usual" for me?

That's actually the exact opposite of what you usually do.

[The Ceej]

Or maybe you're, as usual, trying too hard to disprove things over a simple exception. Everyone with at least basic musical knowledge knows his name is Ludwig von Beethoven.

That's what I thought. But then they told me it was Ludwig van Beethoven, and I did a search. Either they were right or the first ten sites I saw, including Wikipedia, in the internet search were wrong.

How am I the one trying to disprove things when I was the one who was willing to admit I was wrong based on my findings? And how is this "usual" for me?

That's actually the exact opposite of what you usually do.

Isn't it funny how people on the internet think they know you so damn well? For example, Roto thinks I'm the guy who thinks he's always right even when he knows he's wrong. Those were his words. That's not even close. I'm actually very open-minded and willing to change my opinion when new information comes in, as well as willing to admit when I'm wrong. But somehow, I get people like Roto and Momji thinking they know me and attacking me based on the incorrect assumption they have made in stay of attempting to get to know me.

[scrumpleberry]

Ignore snipey negativity, keep on proving him wrong, and everyone will respect you more ; )

[Momiji]

Isn't it funny how people on the internet think they know you so damn well? For example, Roto thinks I'm the guy who thinks he's always right even when he knows he's wrong. Those were his words. That's not even close. I'm actually very open-minded and willing to change my opinion when new information comes in, as well as willing to admit when I'm wrong. But somehow, I get people like Roto and Momiji thinking they know me and attacking me based on the incorrect assumption they have made in stay of attempting to get to know me.

Um, what? I have not said one negative thing against you at all in this thread. Saying that "you are, as usual, trying too hard to disprove things over a simple exception" is nothing more than my observation of your mindset from recent posts. Just because I disagree with you does not mean I'm attacking you. It's this thing called 'discussion'.

Furthermore, the main point of me saying what I said is meant to follow the lines of 'does it really matter?'

You can't just say "Maybe everything I learned in college was wrong" just because of one simple error that really makes no impact upon what you have learned. Everyone makes mistakes. This one was just the mistake of whoever wrote the book.

Also, van, von, whatever. It's only a petty difference. I'd be more concerned if he popped out of the grave and started strangling me for saying it wrong. Until then, it's a matter of semantics and anal retentiveness. Of course, van is right, that's what I meant-- you just had me confused (I had incorrectly said 'von' earlier. :p). And as I said before, it is just a mistake. The world keeps on turning.

[Big D]

Hmm... I've always known his full name, but it never really bugged me before that he's not commonly referred to as "van Beethoven" rather than simply 'Beethoven'. It's always "Beethoven's n^th Symphony" instead of "van Beethoven's n^th", which is actually quite odd and inconsistent with how Germanic names are usually treated in English.

Von is the German equivalent of van, and has the same meaning in this context. His parents were named van Beethoven, so it's not an affectation on his part - and according to Wikipedia, 'van' isn't associated with noble names in the same way as 'von'. They mean the same thing, but the usage varies.

If he's called 'Ludwig von Beethoven' in a source, then presumably it's either an error, or a German text that's using the German equivalent of his name, or it's simply using the German word for whatever reason.


My real name is The von Ceej:p That doesn't make a whole lot of sense - 'The of Ceej'? 'The from Ceej'? It only really works with proper names, I believe.

[Momiji]

So, either way is correct? o_O

[Roto13]

No. :P

[The Ceej]

You can't just say "Maybe everything I learned in college was wrong" just because of one simple error that really makes no impact upon what you have learned. Everyone makes mistakes. This one was just the mistake of whoever wrote the book.

Fine. Nobody gets the Dechert joke. Whatever. Moving on.



My real name is The von Ceej

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense - 'The of Ceej'? 'The from Ceej'? It only really works with proper names, I believe.

The Ceej is a proper name. First name, The. Last name, von Ceej. At least that's how I fill out internet forms... Sans the von... Until now.

[Roto13]

You can probably pester Leeza into changing your name for you.

[nik0tine]

Has it occurred to any of you that 'van' and 'von' might be ambivalent? :p

[Big D]

They are, basically. Different language, but aside from that they're nigh identical.

[Momiji]

Has it occurred to any of you that 'van' and 'von' might be ambivalent? :p


They are, basically. Different language, but aside from that they're nigh identical.


So, either way is correct? o_O


No. :P

:p

[Big D]

The 'O' in Irish names like O'Malley or O'Brien means almost the same thing as 'van/von', but that doesn't make it right to use the wrong one. Ludwig O'Beethoven? Ludwig MacBeethoven? Not right. Same goes for Ludwig von Beethoven, though some sources use that occasionally for reasons of geography.

:edit: as a further exameple - my name's David, but the Gaelic form of that name is Daffyd. Different version of the same word, but only one's actually my name.

[The Ceej]

You can probably pester Leeza into changing your name for you.

And then, what do I do next week when I've changed my mind about von Ceej and moved onto another ridiculous phase? Pester her again? If I did, I'd sure remind her it was your idea.

[Shlup]

That's it, I'm officially sticking with MacBeethoven.

[Bunny]

MICKEY B'S

I'M LOVIN' IT

[The Ceej]

That's it, I'm officially sticking with MacBeethoven.

And the Shakespeare character with the self-fulfilling prophecy to become king is von Beth. If you can do that, I can do this.

Damn. Then we lose all sense of order and balance in the world.

[bipper]

Damn. Then we lose all sense or order and balance in the world.

The World of Ruin is way better anyways.

[Aerith's Knight]

Hey guys, van and von aren't the same.

Even in the dutch language you have people with von in their last names.

Dutch names are way better. *puts up two fingers*

WHOOOT!

[Hambone]

Maybe we drop it because his name was Ludwig van Beethoven.

BURN...

[Fate Fatale]

The word "von" in German means "of" in English. This is basically referring to the house of which a person belongs. Translated properly, his name reads Ludwig of Beethoven house. In English, these 'house names' are referred to as last or surnames. The connecting words are dropped for fluency in our language. I'm about 85% certain that "van" is just "von" conjugated differently.

EDIT: I've just wiki'd some info and I found that "von" was used only by the nobility at that time. So I am now certain that when he became famous, he changed his name from a commoner's to a nobleman's by the simple change of a letter.

[Krelian]

I'm about 85% certain that "van" is just "von" conjugated differently.
Nope. "von" doesn't change its form ever. "van" is just a Dutch word.


EDIT: I've just wiki'd some info and I found that "von" was used only by the nobility at that time. So I am now certain that when he became famous, he changed his name from a commoner's to a nobleman's by the simple change of a letter.
He didn't change his name, though. It's "van Beethoven", it never was "von Beethoven".

[NeoCracker]

Damn. Then we lose all sense or order and balance in the world.

The World of Ruin is way better anyways.

I love you oh so very much right now Don Bipper.

[Big D]

"von" doesn't change its form ever.This is off-topic and completely pedantic, but "von" can indeed change into "vom" as an abbreviated form of "von dem".
"van" is just a Dutch word.Indeed - a Dutch word that means something virtually the same as "von" :p

[Krelian]

"von" doesn't change its form ever.This is off-topic and completely pedantic, but "von" can indeed change into "vom" as an abbreviated form of "von dem".
You got me there, forgot about that.

Indeed - a Dutch word that means something virtually the same as "von" :p
Yes, but the point is that it's a different language, so it can't be used interchangeably and it's not a conjugation of "von".

[Fate Fatale]

I'm about 85% certain that "van" is just "von" conjugated differently.
Nope. "von" doesn't change its form ever. "van" is just a Dutch word.


EDIT: I've just wiki'd some info and I found that "von" was used only by the nobility at that time. So I am now certain that when he became famous, he changed his name from a commoner's to a nobleman's by the simple change of a letter.
He didn't change his name, though. It's "van Beethoven", it never was "von Beethoven".


I never meant it to mean that he actually went to an office and got an official name change, it could have just been some strange whim he got when he grew to fame. People change their names (on a personal basis) every day... or at least I do. :D