America is fucked up.

[Vivisteiner]

Ok, I was just watching Recount. Its a film about what really happened during the Al Gore vs George Bush election in 2000, and it reveals that America's 'democracy' is actually a farce.


Anyway, its a really good film, and I recommend you watch it. Here's a trailer:

YouTube - RECOUNT Movie Trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVd1LuadnDk)

Recount (film - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recount_(film)))



I guess the only problem with it is that it make your blood boil, knowing how flawed the elections were and that we had to endure Bush because of them.

[Jebus]

lol i agree bu$h sucks, and he caused 911 lols

RON PAUL! WOO!

[Old Manus]

resist the nwo guise

[Kirobaito]

I thought that Recount was a decent film (I've seen it twice) in dramatizing the events that a lot of young people didn't really understand at the time, but you also have to remember that the film was made by Kevin Spacey - Spacey is far from objective.

I think the main thesis of the film was the scene right near the beginning. The Gore camp hired Warren freaking Christopher, and the Bush camp hired James Baker. Their approaches were completely different, and obviously one of those approaches beat the other.

[Bunny]

I guess the only problem with it is that it make your blood boil, knowing how flawed the elections were and that we had to endure Bush because of them.

And the fact that the director himself said that the movie wasn't 100% accurate or true.

Don't need to watch a boring documentary to know that democracy and elections are a farce.

[Vivisteiner]

@Levian: Are you trying to say its a conspiracy theory?


Because its not. The film is mostly factually accurate, and the key points are true.


@Bunny: Its not a documentary, its a dramatization. And these things can never be 100% true. There were things added for dramatic effect, maybe a liberal bias, but the key stuff most experts seem to agree on.

[Jowy]

lol i agree bu$h sucks, and he caused 911 lols

RON PAUL! WOO!

lets cuddle

[Baloki]

I thought this forum was General Chat not Old News?

[Vivisteiner]

Oh, it only just got aired in the UK.

Us Brits are behind the times, I guess...

[I Took the Red Pill]

Hey I heard we just caught Saddam Hussein in like a little manhole or something. :confused:

[mooglebunni608]

I thought everyone knew that!



lol i agree bu$h sucks, and he caused 911 lols

RON PAUL! WOO!

ILU.

[Vivisteiner]

I knew it before the film. But the film showed it quite well. I didnt realise there were so many twists and turns.



Oh, and what is this fascination with Ron Paul? I dont get it. In this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2b1D5w82yU) video he seems rather lame, tbh.

[Cyric]

If you liked that movie, I HIGHLY recommend you watch Postal. Just to push you past the shock of who directed it into actually watching it, it's an Uwe Boll film. Completely discard any preconceived notions about his "film making", and just watch the movie. The opening scene will probably win you over. :) Think of it as a live-action version of South Park and you'll laugh HARD. I haven't even watched South Park since the movie came out, and I loved this movie. An instant classic IMO.

[Madame Adequate]

If the Supreme Court had gone with Gore we would currently be talking about a movie of how Bush was gipped out of the White House.

How is American democracy a farce? They have measures in place to deal with issues such as those which arose in the 2000 election. Their issue was no bigger than many other countries have faced who are still considered democratic.

[Roto13]

Or maybe Kevin Spacey is a retard. That's a strong possibility, too.

[Goldenboko]

Or maybe Kevin Spacey is a retard. That's a strong possibility, too.

The voice of reason.

[qwertysaur]

The 2000 election was a mess because the voting system in Florida was horrid.

2004 on the other hand has a high possibility of Fraud. I have seen sources, but unfortunalty I'll be lazy and show a quote from Wikipedia


Walden O'Dell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walden_O%27Dell) the former CEO of Diebold (the parent company of voting machine manufacturer Diebold Election Systems) was an active fundraiser for George W. Bush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_W._Bush)'s re-election campaign and wrote in a fund-raising letter dated August 13, 2003, that he was committed "to helping Ohio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio) deliver its electoral votes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_votes) to the President."


Also a note is the same company provided the voting machines during Alaska's elections that resulted is Sarah Palin becoming Governor.

[Vivisteiner]

If the Supreme Court had gone with Gore we would currently be talking about a movie of how Bush was gipped out of the White House.
Yeah...so?


How is American democracy a farce? They have measures in place to deal with issues such as those which arose in the 2000 election. Their issue was no bigger than many other countries have faced who are still considered democratic.
Its a farce because America proclaims itself as the voice of democracy, yet its elections in 2000 showed how flawed their democratic system is. To this day, we still do not know who won the election. Essentially, the vote was cast by one woman - Katherine Harris. What is more, the film revealed all the mistakes that took place during the election. Consider this: If there had been a 5% difference in Florida, none of these huge problems would have come to light, such as thousands of people being prevented from voting, and so on. So how can we be confident in the election system in future years?

I understand they've changed the system in recent years, but its hard to be confident when you look back at the past. This too is combined with modern criticisms of the voting system, during the New Hampshire election, for example. My point is, the democratic vote counting systems in America are far from ideal. Its very possible that the UK does a better job. But whatever it is, America aint setting a good example. Thats for sure.

[demondude]

Proud to be British. :cool:

[Heath]

If the Supreme Court had gone with Gore we would currently be talking about a movie of how Bush was gipped out of the White House.
Yeah...so?

I think the point is that we'd be having this conversation anyway. While I certainly would have preferred Gore as President (not simply because of a dislike of Bush but because I rather like Gore). Doesn't make it right, but I think the 2000 election would've been contentious which ever way it went.

No electoral system is perfect, even when it comes down to the different ways of voting each system has its own pros and cons. I mean, to use a British example, isn't it a bit unfair how the seats worked out in 2005? Labour 35.3% of the vote got 55.2% of the seats, Tories 32.3% of the vote got them 30.7% of the seats and the Lib Dems 22.1% of the vote got them 9% of the seats. Sadly there's no perfect or entirely fair electoral system out there.

[Madame Adequate]

If the Supreme Court had gone with Gore we would currently be talking about a movie of how Bush was gipped out of the White House.
Yeah...so?

So I don't see what your point is. The US had an electoral question and it was resolved by the people the Constitution designated should resolve such questions. Whoever the SCOTUS chose, it was going to piss millions of people off. They were in a no-win situation, and tbh we all know that this kind of talk isn't motivated by genuine desires to improve democracy and fix problems, but out of a simple dislike of Bush.


Its a farce because America proclaims itself as the voice of democracy, yet its elections in 2000 showed how flawed their democratic system is. To this day, we still do not know who won the election.

Uh yes, we do, Bush won. You might not like it, but the SCOTUS had the authority to do what it did, and in so doing they created a legitimate winner. Bush didn't win the popular vote, but that's not necessary in American politics due to the way the electoral college works. Just because American democracy is imperfect doesn't mean it's farcical.


Consider this: If there had been a 5% difference in Florida, none of these huge problems would have come to light, such as thousands of people being prevented from voting, and so on. So how can we be confident in the election system in future years?

If there had been a 5% difference in many states Gore wouldn't have needed Florida. What's your point?


My point is, the democratic vote counting systems in America are far from ideal. Its very possible that the UK does a better job. But whatever it is, America aint setting a good example. Thats for sure.

Nobody said they're ideal. But they're better than our system here, that's for darn sure. I live in Leicester East, which means my current MP is Keith Vaz (Lab). I detest Keith Vaz. I think he is a terrible politician whose presence in the Commons is damaging to Leicester and to Britain. However, let us suppose that although I dislike Keith Vaz I am a staunch Labour supporter. Let's suppose that I think Brown's just had some bad luck and is in fact a very good PM who deserves my votes, or let's suppose that the Thatcher years turned me off the Tories for life - if I want to vote Labour, that means I must vote Vaz. If I refuse to vote for Vaz, that means I can't vote Labour.

Tell me how that is a good system. America isn't perfect but nobody has been arguing that it is. But if you think it's a bad system because an election is questionable once or twice a century, well, you'll never be happy.

[Bunny]

My point is, the democratic vote counting systems in America are far from ideal. Its very possible that the UK does a better job. But whatever it is, America aint setting a good example. Thats for sure.

Nobody said they're ideal. But they're better than our system here, that's for darn sure. I live in Leicester East, which means my current MP is Keith Vaz (Lab). I detest Keith Vaz. I think he is a terrible politician whose presence in the Commons is damaging to Leicester and to Britain. However, let us suppose that although I dislike Keith Vaz I am a staunch Labour supporter. Let's suppose that I think Brown's just had some bad luck and is in fact a very good PM who deserves my votes, or let's suppose that the Thatcher years turned me off the Tories for life - if I want to vote Labour, that means I must vote Vaz. If I refuse to vote for Vaz, that means I can't vote Labour.

Tell me how that is a good system. America isn't perfect but nobody has been arguing that it is. But if you think it's a bad system because an election is questionable once or twice a century, well, you'll never be happy.

Holy crap I have no idea what you just said.

[Vivisteiner]

So I don't see what your point is. The US had an electoral question and it was resolved by the people the Constitution designated should resolve such questions. Whoever the SCOTUS chose, it was going to piss millions of people off. They were in a no-win situation, and tbh we all know that this kind of talk isn't motivated by genuine desires to improve democracy and fix problems, but out of a simple dislike of Bush.

Thats not at all true. Katherine Harris prevented the recount from being completed, even though it required only two more hours. The reason: she's a Republican and so were here aides. If the recount had been completed in those extra two hours then they could have found out who actually won. In that sense, the President would have been democratically elected. But in reality, Bush was not democratically elected. Katherine Harris had the power to prevent democracy from happening and she did that.


My simple point is that it didnt have to to choose anyone. If they had waited two more hours, the official recounts would have showed who won. This is out of a genuine desire to improve democracy, and I would say the same had Gore been elected instead by similarly unfair methods.


Uh yes, we do, Bush won. You might not like it, but the SCOTUS had the authority to do what it did, and in so doing they created a legitimate winner
Bush did not win democratically though. Which essentially means that America is not a proper democracy. The whole idea that one person can have such power to choose who is elected is inherently flawed.


Bush didn't win the popular vote, but that's not necessary in American politics due to the way the electoral college works. Just because American democracy is imperfect doesn't mean it's farcical.
It is facical, because as soon as this problem came to light, all the issues with the system were revealed.

Firstly, the errors made by the machines used in areas of Florida were phenomenally high, and so the lead Bush supposedly had was well within the error bound, essentially making it meaningless. Secondly, thousands of people were prevented from voting as they were mistakenly registered as criminals. Thirdly, the laws referring to the runnings of the elections process are a mess, and each borough is isolated and disorganised. There are no clear standards - its pathetic really.


If there had been a 5% difference in many states Gore wouldn't have needed Florida. What's your point?

My point is this. Assume everything else was the same, but instead of Bush winning Florida by 0.05% or whatever, he won it by 5%. There would be no investigations and the flaws in the democratic system would not have come to light. Which makes you think - what flaws are there in other areas of America that we don't know about?



Nobody said they're ideal. But they're better than our system here, that's for darn sure. I live in Leicester East, which means my current MP is Keith Vaz (Lab). I detest Keith Vaz. I think he is a terrible politician whose presence in the Commons is damaging to Leicester and to Britain. However, let us suppose that although I dislike Keith Vaz I am a staunch Labour supporter. Let's suppose that I think Brown's just had some bad luck and is in fact a very good PM who deserves my votes, or let's suppose that the Thatcher years turned me off the Tories for life - if I want to vote Labour, that means I must vote Vaz. If I refuse to vote for Vaz, that means I can't vote Labour.

Tell me how that is a good system. America isn't perfect but nobody has been arguing that it is. But if you think it's a bad system because an election is questionable once or twice a century, well, you'll never be happy.
Your missing my point. That flaw is a flaw in the voting ideology. Just like I could claim that the first past the post system is a flawed ideology which meant Bush won instead of Gore (Gore won the actual count by 500,000).

But I'm not talking about the voting concepts, such as that. What I'm talking about is how those concepts are implemented. And I know for a fact that America did a terrible job at implementing those concepts as the counting was innaccurate, people were prevented from voting, and the system reflected the intent of the voter poorly, due to it having flaws (dimple chad, etc).


Do you understand the key difference. I'm not criticising the ideology behind the voting system, Im critisising how it was carried out.

[theundeadhero]

If you really want to change american democracy a world-wide Final Fantasy messege board is a horrible place to try.

[Madame Adequate]

Yes, and I am saying that a poorly executed election in a broadly good system is better than a well executed election in a heavily flawed system.

There is not a democracy on Earth which has not had a constitutional crisis at some point or other, whether in elections or something else. I don't approve of how the US government dealt with the crisis in 2000, but I don't think it's the end of democracy, or of US democracy, or that it demonstates some fundamental and unfixable flaw in their system. I want better in the future, but that's the way of it. Political systems evolve as they make mistakes.

[Cyric]

If you really want to change american democracy a world-wide Final Fantasy messege board is a horrible place to try.

200% PWNAGE! LMAO

[Yar]

I find our representative democracy very flawed. For one, not everyone's vote is equal. Myself, as a citizen of Ohio, a swing state with 20 electoral votes, my own vote can hold more of an effect on a presidential election than can any voter from a small state such as Wyoming or conversely a Republican voter in California or Democratic voter in Texas.

[bipper]

Wait, there is a Crisis? I thought things were going ok...

[XxSephirothxX]

If you want to talk about how fucked the political system is, try looking at a lower level. The analogy of politics as a game is especially apt in state senate elections, in which voting districts are constantly being modified to lump together or spread out voters in such a way as to minimize or maximize the advantage one party has in a particular region. It is, quite literally, a way to try to make your party's votes count more than the other's through petty manipulation of the law.

[Vivisteiner]

200% PWNAGE! LMAO
No. Just no.

You could make that same comment in any debate topic, pretty much.


Yes, and I am saying that a poorly executed election in a broadly good system is better than a well executed election in a heavily flawed system.
I dont really see how you can make either case...both are unacceptable. But then again, America's system is also rubbish because there is no voter equality as recent voters have pointed out.

And Azar is probably right, there must surely be more room for corruption at lower levels.

[nik0tine]

How is American democracy a farce?American democracy is a farce because Republicans and Democrats don't really exist. There are only right wing federalists and left wing federalists. (At least, those are the only ones who have a chance of getting elected to a major office like the presidency)

That said, I'm not watching a movie that has anything to do with kevin spacey and Bush did win the election in 2000. Perhaps the electoral process should be changed but thats how it was at the time so it's fair game, unfortunately.

[Vivisteiner]

That said, I'm not watching a movie that has anything to do with kevin spacey and Bush did win the election in 2000.

But as I said before, he didnt win the election democratically. The power to decide who won the election was in the hands of one woman, making it all flawed.

Oh, and what have people got against Kevin Spacey? I dont even know who he is, other than him being in the film.

[Nominus Experse]

He hails from Smallville

The character he plays therein once stole cakes, making them a lie for someone, somewhere.

Stolen cakes = hatred

[nik0tine]

The character he plays therein once stole cakes, making them a lie for someone, somewhere. The cake is a lie.

[Madame Adequate]

Annnnnnd thread.