Please recommend rpg with a class system.

[DemonicDragon]

Hi, I am looking for a with a class system, but I have a few things I don't want to hear, alright?
1.Go play a MMO or Western RPG, they both suck.
2. Tactical RPGs I love but I'm sick of them right now.

So basically I want a JPRG with a class system I prefer not FF games(mostly cause I've played them all)
thanx in advance.

[Zeromus_X]

If you can handle it, Dragon Quest III and I think VII both have class systems.

[DemonicDragon]

If you can handle it, Dragon Quest III and I think VII both have class systems.
Probably should have mentioned it my first post, but I'm not a big fan of DQ. Got anything else?

[Realm25]

lol you dont leave many options.

[DemonicDragon]

lol you dont leave many options.
I'm sorry:(, but that kinda the point if I was looking for something easy to find, I wouldn't have made this thread. Yeah, I'm looking for a real gem.:D

[Markus. D]

Try Guild Wars: Nightfall.

The sheer amount of Synergy options with other classes is immense and it may even grow on you.

I say Nightfall instead of Prophecies or Factions due to it being the most polished campaign out of 'em (Starting off it seems pretty standard, then you make your way to the main island, it slowly gets madder and more epic... and there's a neat Postgame Area too).

Can't forget the PvP either... it's really well done (though there's a few complainers in Guild Vs Guild at the moment... and Random Arenas always sucks :P).


Disgaea 1, 2 and 3 if you like "Tactics" styled games, you have a plentiful "Class" selection and it's pretty easy to get into.

ONSNAP you just said, but... ._.


I... honestly can't think of anything straight off of my face that ISN'T Western.

[DemonicDragon]

Try Guild Wars: Nightfall.

The sheer amount of Synergy options with other classes is immense and it may even grow on you.

I say Nightfall instead of Prophecies or Factions due to it being the most polished campaign out of 'em (Starting off it seems pretty standard, then you make your way to the main island, it slowly gets madder and more epic... and there's a neat Postgame Area too).

Can't forget the PvP either... it's really well done (though there's a few complainers in Guild Vs Guild at the moment... and Random Arenas always sucks :P).


Disgaea 1, 2 and 3 if you like "Tactics" styled games, you have a plentiful "Class" selection and it's pretty easy to get into.

ONSNAP you just said, but... ._.


I... honestly can't think of anything straight off of my face that ISN'T Western.
I told you specifically not to include mmorpgs didn't I? Guilds Wars is Western and I've heard it doesn't even have stats, not cool:(

[Old Manus]

You could always mod Half-Life

[LunarWeaver]

Blue Dragon has a class system.

[Markus. D]

Try Guild Wars: Nightfall.

The sheer amount of Synergy options with other classes is immense and it may even grow on you.

I say Nightfall instead of Prophecies or Factions due to it being the most polished campaign out of 'em (Starting off it seems pretty standard, then you make your way to the main island, it slowly gets madder and more epic... and there's a neat Postgame Area too).

Can't forget the PvP either... it's really well done (though there's a few complainers in Guild Vs Guild at the moment... and Random Arenas always sucks :P).


Disgaea 1, 2 and 3 if you like "Tactics" styled games, you have a plentiful "Class" selection and it's pretty easy to get into.

ONSNAP you just said, but... ._.


I... honestly can't think of anything straight off of my face that ISN'T Western.
I told you specifically not to include mmorpgs didn't I? Guilds Wars is Western and I've heard it doesn't even have stats, not cool:(

MMORPG when it comes to a select (select) amount of PvP/Missions.

It's a single player RPG that requires online connection (Well, they encourage partying with others, but since you're able to make it through with just AI Heros and Henchman it doesn't matter at all) ^^~

It may not have "stats"... but that's the beauty, it instead has attributes that increase the level of the matched skill-lineage. I say beauty, because at any time (In a town/city/outpost) you can change them around to suit variations... and in some cases entirely new ways of kicking/healing face ^^

ps: I'm going to make a gameplay video just for you, sir.... because I think it would be great to have another play :D!

[Iceglow]

Star Ocean games are ok, the "class system" there is more the difference between ranged/unranged but you can take control of things also til the ends of time is excellently made for ps2.

Other than that I suggest Suidoken III or Suidoken IV, III will be hard to find and never actually got a uk release date :( IV is naval based where the main character is a sailor and you end up running around the world map with a fleet of ships and there are 3 types of battle: Naval (works as strategy you choose your ships crew and take out the enemy simple enough), Party (your party kicks some ass together 4 v xxx theres combinations of party members which allows you to get special attacks to build up over time) and Duel (where you go mano a mano with the enemy and kick their backside alone). Heres the other "OMG WTF" thing with Suidoken..."108 stars of destiny" each star in IV is a character that you can recruit, not all of them are combatants but I think theres atleast 15 - 20 combatant characters some however are needed for different side quests or even just to make ships tougher in naval combat. You can also customise your ships too to make their range longer, their hulls stronger ect ect.

So yeah if you won't want to play GW which is awesome btw I do play it and am looking to get a new guild. My recommendation is Suidoken and Star Ocean and not to mention Breath of Fire IV especially (old ps1) but I suppose Dragon Quarter isn't that bad. Also Dark Cloud and Dark Chronicle.

[the AJman]

Since you ruled out western RPGs, other FF games, and MMOs, Ive can't thing of any other games that use a job system.

Speaking of which, whats wrong with western RPGs?

[DemonicDragon]

Since you ruled out western RPGs, other FF games, and MMOs, Ive can't thing of any other games that use a job system.

Speaking of which, whats wrong with western RPGs?
I'm sorry but I have no confidence in western rpgs, I've played a few and quite frankly they fail in terms of inferior gameplay. Imo western companies should stick to FPS and other genres.

[DemonicDragon]

Star Ocean games are ok, the "class system" there is more the difference between ranged/unranged but you can take control of things also til the ends of time is excellently made for ps2.

Other than that I suggest Suidoken III or Suidoken IV, III will be hard to find and never actually got a uk release date :( IV is naval based where the main character is a sailor and you end up running around the world map with a fleet of ships and there are 3 types of battle: Naval (works as strategy you choose your ships crew and take out the enemy simple enough), Party (your party kicks some ass together 4 v xxx theres combinations of party members which allows you to get special attacks to build up over time) and Duel (where you go mano a mano with the enemy and kick their backside alone). Heres the other "OMG WTF" thing with Suidoken..."108 stars of destiny" each star in IV is a character that you can recruit, not all of them are combatants but I think theres atleast 15 - 20 combatant characters some however are needed for different side quests or even just to make ships tougher in naval combat. You can also customise your ships too to make their range longer, their hulls stronger ect ect.

So yeah if you won't want to play GW which is awesome btw I do play it and am looking to get a new guild. My recommendation is Suidoken and Star Ocean and not to mention Breath of Fire IV especially (old ps1) but I suppose Dragon Quarter isn't that bad. Also Dark Cloud and Dark Chronicle.
Dude, I love the Star Ocean Saga, Star Ocean 2 possibly being my favorite rpg of all time. That game was flat out awesome and will always be a gem. Suikoden 1 & 2 I'd played, they are above average rpgs, though as much as I'd like to continue playing them I lack a PS2:(.

[DemonicDragon]

Yeah, I know is a little off-topic but maybe it will help you guys choose better games. When I first played Final Fantasy V I enjoyed it to certain extent and thought nothing of its obviously flaws. Though, FFV feels like torture today-the graphics were pathetic, probably inferior IV's, the game had shallow weak characters and no plot whatsoever, but all this had nothing to do with its job system, square have easily built a concievable quality rpg using the job system, why this instead? Nowadays I'm wondering why Square blantaly choose to couple the job system up with a crud storyline and poor graphics?

I ask you guys whats the closest thing to Final Fantasy V that has a quality story, it can be SRPG I realize now that kinda a must. Still no western or mmos please I've tried both and for whatever reason they just don't work. Though if you can find a Tactical MMORPG that would be worth my while(as long as its not dofus or Tactics Arena)

[Laddy]

Play a Western RPG, they are inferior in terms of style and story, but are better at being a well, Rpg.

I recommend Baldur's Gate I or II for PC, these games are dark and moody, but has one of the most open-ended and fantastic plots ever.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

Under your requirements, such a thing more or less does not exist.

[DemonicDragon]

Well, well it looks my lucky day FFXI just opened up a 2 week free trial, so guess where I'll be! I know, I said, no mmorpgs but square is pro I know I can't go wrong.

[Iceglow]

So is Blizzard and WoW also NCsoft corporation or as they're better known Arenanet creators of Guild Wars also Mythic with Warhammer Online Age of Reckoning...Not to mention going in to Eve 2 and a good many other "pro" mmo developers. Your criteria leave no games really and even you cannot fulfill your own criteria the only difference in any of those I mention above is GW costs about £15 to play since you buy it once not pay for a subscription fee

[Madame Adequate]

Since you ruled out western RPGs, other FF games, and MMOs, Ive can't thing of any other games that use a job system.

Speaking of which, whats wrong with western RPGs?
I'm sorry but I have no confidence in western rpgs, I've played a few and quite frankly they fail in terms of inferior gameplay. Imo western companies should stick to FPS and other genres.

Yeah balls to that, have you ever heard of Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, Kotor, Fallout, or Neverwinter Nights?

But as to SRPGs, you're really looking at one of two options: Everything NIS has put out, like Phantom Brave and Disgaea, or the Vandal Hearts games. The latter are fucking awesome and everyone should play them.

[DemonicDragon]

So is Blizzard and WoW also NCsoft corporation or as they're better known Arenanet creators of Guild Wars also Mythic with Warhammer Online Age of Reckoning...Not to mention going in to Eve 2 and a good many other "pro" mmo developers. Your criteria leave no games really and even you cannot fulfill your own criteria the only difference in any of those I mention above is GW costs about £15 to play since you buy it once not pay for a subscription fee




Since you ruled out western RPGs, other FF games, and MMOs, Ive can't thing of any other games that use a job system.

Speaking of which, whats wrong with western RPGs?
I'm sorry but I have no confidence in western rpgs, I've played a few and quite frankly they fail in terms of inferior gameplay. Imo western companies should stick to FPS and other genres.

RE:Sorry but I'd get more sastifaction out of 2 weeks in FFXI then a life-time in GW.


Yeah balls to that, have you ever heard of Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, Kotor, Fallout, or Neverwinter Nights?

But as to SRPGs, you're really looking at one of two options: Everything NIS has put out, like Phantom Brave and Disgaea, or the Vandal Hearts games. The latter are smurfing awesome and everyone should play them.
Fool,I don't simply say to myself-"Look how popular this game is, I'll buy it cause everyone else does!". Personally I prefer console style rpgs. Nippon Ichi Software, or NIS in America is one of my favorite companies as a matter of fact.

[Bunny]

Fool!

[Rostum]

Well, well it looks my lucky day FFXI just opened up a 2 week free trial, so guess where I'll be! I know, I said, no mmorpgs but square is pro I know I can't go wrong.

Even though I love the game and am a veteran, you won't last long. Especially since SE give the worst customer service out of any MMORPG company.

Sad to say, but two weeks in FFXI won't get you anywhere.

[Madame Adequate]

Fool,I don't simply say to myself-"Look how popular this game is, I'll buy it cause everyone else does!". Personally I prefer console style rpgs. Nippon Ichi Software, or NIS in America is one of my favorite companies as a matter of fact.

Does it occur perhaps that they are popular for a reason?

[Roto13]

Under your requirements, such a thing more or less does not exist.

That's kind of sad. JRPG + class system - Final Fantasy shouldn't be such a rare combination. :P

[DemonicDragon]

Fool,I don't simply say to myself-"Look how popular this game is, I'll buy it cause everyone else does!". Personally I prefer console style rpgs. Nippon Ichi Software, or NIS in America is one of my favorite companies as a matter of fact.

Does it occur perhaps that they are popular for a reason?
Yes, of course but its not a reason of my interest. I'd stick with something thats tried and true, for me thats a JPRG.

[DemonicDragon]

Under your requirements, such a thing more or less does not exist.

That's kind of sad. JRPG + class system - Final Fantasy shouldn't be such a rare combination. :P
Agreed, I kinda felt it was impossible for Square to be the only ones thats why made this thread, to be sure. Well, theres all plenty of innovative JRPGs.:) I mean, seriously how can something so simple be so rare?

[Madame Adequate]

Fool,I don't simply say to myself-"Look how popular this game is, I'll buy it cause everyone else does!". Personally I prefer console style rpgs. Nippon Ichi Software, or NIS in America is one of my favorite companies as a matter of fact.

Does it occur perhaps that they are popular for a reason?
Yes, of course but its not a reason of my interest. I'd stick with something thats tried and true, for me thats a JPRG.

Okay, have fun not experiencing some of the greatest games ever made.

[DemonicDragon]

Fool,I don't simply say to myself-"Look how popular this game is, I'll buy it cause everyone else does!". Personally I prefer console style rpgs. Nippon Ichi Software, or NIS in America is one of my favorite companies as a matter of fact.

Does it occur perhaps that they are popular for a reason?
Yes, of course but its not a reason of my interest. I'd stick with something thats tried and true, for me thats a JPRG.

Okay, have fun not experiencing some of the greatest games ever made.
I will, because their not, thats an OPINION which I don't share. The greatest games ever made are Final Fantasy VII and Star Ocean 2 imo.

[Realm25]

This guy is borderline troll IMO.

[ShunNakamura]

I am afraid I, like others, can not recommend anything other than the well known JRPG's with class systems. I guess you could try some oldies if you haven't already played them. Such as the old SNES Der Langrisser(there is a fan made patch out) or Ogre Battle March of the Black Queen. If you haven't played all the old SNES Classics you may want to look back at some of them.


However, Neverwinter Nights 2 is far from being a bad game. Though I would play a Final Fantasy Tactics(or Utawarerumono) over NWN2 anyday, that is if I hadn't already played said games to nearly their deathbeds.

[DemonicDragon]

This guy is borderline troll IMO.
I'm nothing of the sort. It makes sense for OP to give feedback to his responses.

[DemonicDragon]

I am afraid I, like others, can not recommend anything other than the well known JRPG's with class systems. I guess you could try some oldies if you haven't already played them. Such as the old SNES Der Langrisser(there is a fan made patch out) or Ogre Battle March of the Black Queen. If you haven't played all the old SNES Classics you may want to look back at some of them.


However, Neverwinter Nights 2 is far from being a bad game. Though I would play a Final Fantasy Tactics(or Utawarerumono) over NWN2 anyday, that is if I hadn't already played said games to nearly their deathbeds.

Yeah, i know Ogre Battle, its one of most fun and unique games ever for me, unforunately its also one of the hardest too XD.

[Bunny]

This thread is a monument to incompetence. And not just yours, DD.

[Madame Adequate]

Fool,I don't simply say to myself-"Look how popular this game is, I'll buy it cause everyone else does!". Personally I prefer console style rpgs. Nippon Ichi Software, or NIS in America is one of my favorite companies as a matter of fact.

Does it occur perhaps that they are popular for a reason?
Yes, of course but its not a reason of my interest. I'd stick with something thats tried and true, for me thats a JPRG.

Okay, have fun not experiencing some of the greatest games ever made.
I will, because their not, thats an OPINION which I don't share. The greatest games ever made are Final Fantasy VII and Star Ocean 2 imo.

Both fantastic games that I love. But if you are seriously charging that Fallout is anything less than purified genius on a disc, you're simply, and objectively, wrong. I'm not kidding. You are demonstrably incorrect. Your opinion is null and void. You don't have to like it, but you can't deny the quality of the game. I don't like Metroid, but I can't deny that it's incredibly well made, solid, and generally awesome. It's just not to my taste, which is a far cry from the game being bad.

[ShunNakamura]

Fool,I don't simply say to myself-"Look how popular this game is, I'll buy it cause everyone else does!". Personally I prefer console style rpgs. Nippon Ichi Software, or NIS in America is one of my favorite companies as a matter of fact.

Does it occur perhaps that they are popular for a reason?
Yes, of course but its not a reason of my interest. I'd stick with something thats tried and true, for me thats a JPRG.

Okay, have fun not experiencing some of the greatest games ever made.
I will, because their not, thats an OPINION which I don't share. The greatest games ever made are Final Fantasy VII and Star Ocean 2 imo.

Both fantastic games that I love. But if you are seriously charging that Fallout is anything less than purified genius on a disc, you're simply, and objectively, wrong. I'm not kidding. You are demonstrably incorrect. Your opinion is null and void. You don't have to like it, but you can't deny the quality of the game. I don't like Metroid, but I can't deny that it's incredibly well made, solid, and generally awesome. It's just not to my taste, which is a far cry from the game being bad.

I will have to argue this. A games quality is highly dependent on the enjoyment garnered from the game. Games are entertainment. If they fail to entertain they have failed the objective. No matter how well made the game mechanics are.

Of course having solid game mechanics, a strong story, etc will certainly not hurt a game. However, they alone won't make a good game. A game is supposed to be entertaining.

Therefore some games can be of great quality to some and little quality to others. If you are talking about the quality of individual game elements that is when you can run into objective merits. Such as the mechanics, the story, etc.

For example, I find Fate/Stay Night to be a great game. But others will find it awful. I could argue the game's greatness based on its story, however, if the person I am speaking with can't enjoy the game, the game is awful(from their perspective) no matter how great I can prove the story/mechanics to be.

But in the end of the day games are entertainment, if they aren't entertaining their quality isn't all that high. At least not for that particular person.

[Madame Adequate]

You're also wrong. It's pretty clear throughout the creative industries and arts that there is a distinction between quality and enjoyment.

[Mirage]

You'll need two months at least in FF11 before you'll get a chance to do the fun parts :p.

[Roto13]

You'll need two months at least in FF11 before you'll get a chance to do the fun parts :p.

Really? Cause they just started a free two week trial thing. :P What a waste of time.

[Araciel]

Dungeons & Dragons with Oriental Adventures.

Most D&D video games suck though.

[ShunNakamura]

You're also wrong. It's pretty clear throughout the creative industries and arts that there is a distinction between quality and enjoyment.

No, I am fairly certian I am right.

What are games played for? For most people games are played for entertainment. Thus, as far as that individual is concerned a game that fails to entertain isn't a good game. For another person that same game may entertain making it, at least from their persepctive, a good game.

Once again once you start breaking a game down into its core components and began discussing the quality of the games components then you run into stuff that can be more than subjective.

[Azure Chrysanthemum]

Under your requirements, such a thing more or less does not exist.

That's kind of sad. JRPG + class system - Final Fantasy shouldn't be such a rare combination. :P

Especially since the quality of FF games has been declining at a disturbing rate recently. I liked XII though, but Masuno is one of my favorite game writers.

Really, all JRPGs in general are becoming old, tired, and hackneyed. I can't really play them anymore, except for the odd NIS game since I really like their writing staff and they tend to be conceptually hilarious.

[Madame Adequate]

You're also wrong. It's pretty clear throughout the creative industries and arts that there is a distinction between quality and enjoyment.

No, I am fairly certian I am right.

What are games played for? For most people games are played for entertainment. Thus, as far as that individual is concerned a game that fails to entertain isn't a good game. For another person that same game may entertain making it, at least from their persepctive, a good game.

Once again once you start breaking a game down into its core components and began discussing the quality of the games components then you run into stuff that can be more than subjective.


Yeah which is obviously what I was saying: A game which has high quality across most or all of its core components is a good game, whether you like it or not. The reserve is also possible. I love EDF 2017, but it's a pretty dire game. Dynasty Warriors is average, but again, I love playing them. Zelda is fantastically accomplished in pretty much every way - and bores the hell out of me. You couldn't pay me to play Zelda games anymore. Fallout is, objectively, an amazingly good game. It does essentially everything right. If it isn't to someone's taste, that doesn't make the game bad, it makes the game not to their taste.

[Rostum]

You'll need two months at least in FF11 before you'll get a chance to do the fun parts :p.

Really? Cause they just started a free two week trial thing. :P What a waste of time.

However, two weeks is still enough time to get addicted to it.

By the way, people play games for challenge. Go look up a definition for "game". Yes, enjoyment is a huge part, but I just wanted to clarify.

Without challenge, there is no game. Either way, what one thinks of a games quality and enjoyment are very subjective - however, no matter what one person gets from a game, there is a distinct difference between quality and enjoyment. Just because one person doesn't like a game's art style, ambience, game mechanics, level design, etc. does not mean it's a bad game, they just think it is. It could very well be the most talently built thing on the planet.

What I'm trying to say is, if a game is perfectly sound and built (and there are a lot of set rules in game design that can distinguish a game from good or bad) with talented art direction and design, then a person could be absolutely wrong in thinking it's poorly built just because they don't like it.

[Markus. D]

You'll need two months at least in FF11 before you'll get a chance to do the fun parts :p.

Really? Cause they just started a free two week trial thing. :P What a waste of time.

I feel it's worth doing the 2 (3 even) months if you plan to truly play onward.

The trial is totally a waste though.

[Exdeath]

Has anybody already suggested Morrowind or Oblivion? Not JRPGs, but they're quite good, imo.
EDIT: don't be picky or assume so much, or you'll never find anything you actually like.

[Laddy]

Has anybody already suggested Morrowind or Oblivion? Not JRPGs, but they're quite good, imo.
EDIT: don't be picky or assume so much, or you'll never find anything you actually like.
Agreed, but Morrowind is rather better, imho.

[Exdeath]

I found Oblivion easier to pick up and get going, plus quests were more organized.

[Madame Adequate]

I found Oblivion easier to pick up and get going, plus quests were more organized.

Agreed, but I found Morrowind more engaging, and that it had a far better world, more original and interesting.

[ShunNakamura]

By the way, people play games for challenge. Go look up a definition for "game". Yes, enjoyment is a huge part, but I just wanted to clarify.
Incorrect. Most games these days pose no challenge whatsoever. And what challenge they may possess can easily be circumnavigated. People play games for a form of interactive entertainment.


Without challenge, there is no game. Either way,
Really? How about most visual Novels? They are games and very enjoyable ones at that. However, a good number of them posses the challenge rating a of a crippled infant in a no holds bar fight.


Whether or not a game is bad depends entirely on the context that is being discussed. DemonicDragon here I am sure is talking about games primarily on their entertainment value. Therefor, for the sake of his argument all a game needs to do to be bad is fail to entertain.

Now if were were talking about a game as a piece of software, or as a piece of art, or as a piece of whatever it would be different. However, if we are talking about it as a piece of entertainment(which I think DemonicDragon is) then its entertainment value is the bit that is being contested. The rest are merely small subcategories that more or may not impact the entertainment value.

The same goes for books or just about anything else. If you talk about it for its entertainment value than that is what is important. If you are talking about its form THAT is what matters. If you are talking about the way it implements its style than that is what matters.



It depends entirely on the context in which the game is being discussed. I suppose I could be completely off on DD's context, however, I can only go by what I have garnered from his posts.

[Rostum]

Incorrect. Most games these days pose no challenge whatsoever. And what challenge they may possess can easily be circumnavigated. People play games for a form of interactive entertainment.

Really? How about most visual Novels? They are games and very enjoyable ones at that. However, a good number of them posses the challenge rating a of a crippled infant in a no holds bar fight.

Visual novels are not games, they just aren't, I don't even know what you're trying to get at here. What you're talking about is completely wrong. Games require challenge to be considered games, whether you think they are challenging enough or not is irrelevant. Yes, they are classified as a part of interactive entertainment, but there's more to it than just that.

"An active interest or pursuit, especially one involving competitive engagement or adherence to rules: "the way the system operates, the access game, the turf game, the image game" (Hedrick Smith)." - Dictionary (http://dictionary.reference.com/dic?q=games&search=search)

The last bit you said, well, it has nothing to do with what I was saying. What has this got to do with other forms of media? I was specifically talking about video games. Not only that, it didn't address any main point I was trying to make. If something is well built, just because a few people don't like it doesn't mean it's a bad game. There's a lot of subjectiveness in there, but there are a lot of established rules and techniques in game design now that you just can't argue with. Basically, whether someone or a few people find a game entertaining or not, does not have any relation to the quality of the game.

[demondude]

This thread is a monument to incompetence. And not just yours, DD.

DemonicDragon is banned from my initials.

[ShunNakamura]

Visual novels are not games, they just aren't, I don't even know what you're trying to get at here. What you're talking about is completely wrong. Games require challenge to be considered games, whether you think they are challenging enough or not is irrelevant. Yes, they are classified as a part of interactive entertainment, but there's more to it than just that.

Last I checked a good many Visual Novels are considered Games. Utawarerumono is a visual novel but it can NOT be contested as not being a game. Fate/Stay Night is a game last I checked. As is the X-Change series. Need I go on? They are marketed and sold as games. They are interactive.

True games are more than interactive. But if you define games by challenge, than a good number of games are apparently not games. After all, I don't find the vast majority of them to be challenging these days. So is NWN2 not a game because it has no real challenge?

Anyhow, I gotta fly to work and will respond to the rest later since the other points should have been clear enough from my previous posts with a bit of reading in between the lines and connecting that to what I was responding to. That or since I was tired I failed to input one of the important in reading lines.

[Iceglow]

NWN2 may not be challenging for an accomplished gamer but for someone who has never played an RPG of the same style as the forgotten realms games might struggle to play it. Personally I think there is little challenge with many games but it does not change the fact they are challenging to others.

The debate over what makes a game good is a big one many say graphics or game play some say storyline I'd like to think that it's a combination of story, world and gameplay as long as a game has those it's got more than a game which has beautiful graphics but no challenge or engaging world. My proof of this is actually a game I work on, it's browser based so it's graphics are virtually non-existent even fights between players take the form of:

You attack < insert player name here > for xxx damage.
< insert player name here > attacks you for xxx damage.

until someone gets the message they're waiting to see:

You attack < insert player name > for xxx damage, killing < insert player name > xx < insert race name > meat fall to the ground.

how simple is that fight? However players get addicted to the game because it is challenging beyond belief.

The world is entirely shaped by players, every character they meet outside of a specified capitol or npc area will be another player of the game, if they kill this player the person can call their friends to help them and avenge them, the players start with 180 skill and can train up to 1340 skill total in any one of 14 weapon classes from unarmed to crossbows. theres a bunch of general skills allowing players to build their own towns and make armour or weapons or potions ect so every item in the game above a certain point has been made by players, every town has been made by players bar the capitol cities where no pvp is allowed. The players can be mayors of these cities and ban people from them and vote new mayors in if they choose. It is with the most rudimentary combat and interface system and yet people who play are absorbed in to the challenge of it. Dying loses all the items you held on you, all your money you were carrying and when you ressurect your character between 1 and 5 skill in your main weapon and a secondary weapon (next highest weapon skill) Dying means a lot in this game perhaps more so than in any other game because death penalties whilst temporary can be hard a player can lose their best armour, weapon and items to another person and unless they get someone to intercept the person kill them they could lose them forever. (the safest place for your valubles is in a town therefore it goes without saying that should the agressor player escape to their town death will be of little use since your items are inside their town and it is up to a member of the agressor's group to withdraw the items and be killed holding them to get them back) Still people forge top items, they build anything up to level 6 runes to place on these items and when they lose them well they lose them and the chase is on.

Now I've played many games and I will point out that in games where death means nothing players lose interest quickly and that in many games where there is no challenge players lose interest just as quickly even if the graphics are fantastic it doesn't matter.

PS. if anyone fancies a try on the game I work on the link is in my sig.

[ShunNakamura]

Let me address the challenge issue. It isn't that I don't think challenge is important. Rather that I think it is a factor instead of the main focus. For example challenge is a factor effecting a games entertainment, its balance, its gameplay, etc. In addition most play I know don't play the game for the challenge. The Fourth Coming isn't really challenging anymore, but people who don't find it challenging still play it. It is entertaining to them for whatever reasons. Challenge is just one of many factors that can make or break a game for many people(and this crosses all boundaries, no matter 'why' you play games challenge will most likely color your likings/dislikings of the game).

First if you want to throw definitions around I hold Merriam-Webster higher than most other forms of dictionaries.



1 a (1): activity engaged in for diversion or amusement : play (2): the equipment for a game b: often derisive or mocking jesting : fun , sport <make game of a nervous player>
2 a: a procedure or strategy for gaining an end : tactic b: an illegal or shady scheme or maneuver : racket
3 a (1): a physical or mental competition conducted according to rules with the participants in direct opposition to each other
(2): a division of a larger contest
(3): the number of points necessary to win
(4): points scored in certain card games (as in all fours) by a player whose cards count up the highest
(5): the manner of playing in a contest
(6): the set of rules governing a game
(7): a particular aspect or phase of play in a game or sport <a football team's kicking game>
3 b plural : organized athletics
3 c (1): a field of gainful activity : line <the newspaper game>
(2): any activity undertaken or regarded as a contest involving rivalry, strategy, or struggle <the dating game> <the game of politics> ; also : the course or period of such an activity <got into aviation early in the game>
(3): area of expertise : specialty 3 <comedy is not my game>
4 a (1): animals under pursuit or taken in hunting ; especially : wild animals hunted for sport or food
(2): the flesh of game animals
4 b archaic : pluck
4 c: a target or object especially of ridicule or attack —often used in the phrase fair game


Basically if we try to argue definitions we likely won't get to far. Games simply put can be a very wide category, or a very narrow category.

My whole point is that you should simply argue within the vein that the game is being discussed in. If you are discussing game balance you should come in saying a game is horrible because you didn't enjoy it. Nor should you say it is great because you enjoyed it. If the game is being evaluated on basis of its balance or whatever mechanic(s) or whatever is under discussion you should discuss it based upon those values. Of course if it is a free form discussion(in other words an open ended 'what did you think of the game') than a discussion based on anything related to the game would work.

Anyways going on I believe Demonic Dragon here was discussing games based on their entertainment value(quite likely the most subjective but yet most common way to judge a game based on). Which is why I jumped in. I could be wrong, however, I am almost willing to bet that I am right.



However, what really grinds my gears is when people make a Game 'x' sucks, without quantifying it. If you don't give me a reason(even if it is a it failed to be entertaining) than I don't really count the opinion as valid. After all, there are so many different ways a game could be great or horrible in that such a statement is really kinda pointless. I mean talk about empty.



And I don't really consider myself a seasoned gamer. In fact I practically never play real time games. In other words I am pretty horrible at anything resembling a battle system like NWN2. Thus, the fact that the game doesn't truly challenge me is a very bad sign as far as I am concerned. Only people who ave only played stuff like Wii Sports would probably have any trouble with it. Games in general these days seem to be made so that anyone can get through them with only a little bit of difficultly at most. Of course this screws anyone who can actually play games over... thank goodness for difficulty settings. A big boo for difficulty settings that think just multiplying enemy hp/damage is a good way to increase difficultly.

Why can't Western game companies do a Utawarerumono game difficulty selection? Where the enemies get smarter, stronger(in this case the peons which on normal only take a single blow or two(and in turn your characters are all apparently supermen can now take a few extra hits and make it appear that you have an army of elite soldiers rather than an army of supermen(which following the storyline your soldiers are better than the average grunt, and late game grunts can just be impossible))) and more complicated game mechanics are introduced?

[Mirage]

You'll need two months at least in FF11 before you'll get a chance to do the fun parts :p.

Really? Cause they just started a free two week trial thing. :P What a waste of time.

Yeah, that's what I thought too. A month would have been somewhat ok, but a two month trial wouldn't really be hard for S-E to do, as they'd profit massively on the players that stuck. More than it'd cost to have them play two months for free anyway.

[Exdeath]

I found Oblivion easier to pick up and get going, plus quests were more organized.

Agreed, but I found Morrowind more engaging, and that it had a far better world, more original and interesting.

Well, I think the OP may need something that he/she can instantly recognize as being good, as well as current-gen graphics.

[Levian]

Have you tried FFX-2? It may look ridiculous, but the job system is so good that everything else really doesn't matter.

[Old Manus]

http://smileys.75thtrombone.com/o/twitch.gif

[Mercen-X]

No Western RPGs. Have you even played them? JUST PLAY THEM.

Do you realize how many J-games are often deemed not-to-par or not-to-one's-taste? (InuYasha RPG & YuYu Hakusho RPG come to mind, as well as YGO:DotR

Just because it's western doesn't mean it'll automatically be bad (maybe avoid anything based on TV shows/movies).

I've played quite a few J-games that I didn't like mostly because of sub-par quality (I tend to give any genre a run and would gladly try Einhander if I could find it).

[Big D]

Have you tried FFX-2? It may look ridiculous, but the job system is so good that everything else really doesn't matter.
http://smileys.75thtrombone.com/o/twitch.gifMy face is happy

[Dignified Pauper]

What system are you primarily looking for? I mean... most games no longer have customizeable class changes and stuff, other than TRPGs. I really can't think of anything. A couple of the legend of mana games revolve around certain individuals being class based, the ones for SNES that is.

[NeoCracker]

Breath of Fire III and IV, in a sense.

They aren't really class based, but you can seriously alter how each character plays dependant upon who you make their masters.

[Dignified Pauper]

Have you tried FFX-2? It may look ridiculous, but the job system is so good that everything else really doesn't matter.

I completely missed this post, but I'm taking a moment to say <3.

Also... uh.. what about ds games... are there class based ds games?

[Momiji]

Have you tried FFX-2? It may look ridiculous, but the job system is so good that everything else really doesn't matter.

I completely missed this post, but I'm taking a moment to say <3.

Also... uh.. what about ds games... are there class based ds games?

Etrian Odyssey.

[Mercen-X]

By the way, people play games for challenge. Go look up a definition for "game". Yes, enjoyment is a huge part, but I just wanted to clarify.

Without challenge, there is no game.
Hyper-competitive freak-fest. I don't play half the games I own on any account of their difficulty. If you're playing a game strictly for its challenge, then you're either playing to win or have just lost grip on reality. My dad likes to play Battlefront because it's based on Star Wars. He doesn't even try to win, he just blasts as many scrubs as he can. He knows he doesn't have to worry about enduring the game because each time dies, his character is replaced immediately. Same thing happens in "Destroy All Humans!" and, check it out, in the Simpsons Hit & Run, there's no way to die. When you're hit you lose money. Maybe this makes it a "kids" game, but it's still a GAME nonetheless and I play it because it's DAMNED FUN, imnsho.


Just because one person doesn't like a game's art style, ambience, game mechanics, level design, etc. does not mean it's a bad game, they just think it is. It could very well be the most talently built thing on the planet.

What I'm trying to say is, if a game is perfectly sound and built (and there are a lot of set rules in game design that can distinguish a game from good or bad) with talented art direction and design, then a person could be absolutely wrong in thinking it's poorly built just because they don't like it.First, I kind of agree, but second, people are entitled to their opinions on whether a game is good or bad. Not exceptionally fond of the art style in most NIS games. What superior authority do you claim to have that allows you to deem me wrong if I believe the game to be bad. (BTW, I don't. I actually own Phantom Brave and still play despite originally purchasing because I thought the system would match Disgaea.)

The only problem with people stating that a game is bad is that others might believe them without trying the game for themselves. This being the case, anyone with strong negative feelings for a game should keep them to themselves. Unless the game is on system for which the game must be purchased rather than rented (and there is no other way to obtain, ie. a friend to borrow from), it's always better to leave the rating of the game to one's opinion and to encourage rather than discourage play for that precise reason.