Heartless, Nobodies, Unbirths?

[Jessweeee♪]

What do you think of the new enemies to be seen in Birth by Sleep?

I tried to find a reliable article, but this is the best I could find:

Wheel Master - Kingdom Hearts Wiki - A world of information not accessible by Gummiship (http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Wheel_Master)

[PuPu]

In KH, there are three important parts to life: the body, the heart, and the soul. Then when darkness takes over a person, new beings are formed: the heartless, nobodies, and now we see another type of entity being formed, the unbirths.

Heartless correspond with the person's heart.
Nobodies correspond with the person's body (I think)
So, I think that maybe Unbirths correspond with the person's soul.

That's just my guess on what Unbirths are, the person's soul after it has been corrupted by darkness.

[Jessweeee♪]

I've always wondered what the difference between someone's heart and soul was supposed to be >.>

[Tavrobel]

Nobodies correspond with the person's body (I think)

Nobodies are what are left behind when the Heart leaves. They are both Body and Soul. They sure are no Kel'Thuzad.


I've always wondered what the difference between someone's heart and soul was supposed to be >.>

In over simplified terms, the Heart defines your existence. It gives shape to all of the emotions and actions that a person can go through. Let's say I can walk, talk, procreate, and inject my Acids into other organisms, turn them into factories, and watch them explode. But those could all be one big giant Python code as follows:


import virus;

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/network.png

Sure as hell isn't a person, though. Nobodies always complain about not existing, but it is certain that they are alive. They walk, talk, breathe, and create large amounts of fireworks. But they don't act irrationally. Just pissed and like bratty teenagers.

The Soul defines whether or not you are alive. It is clear that Unbirths existed first, because they are being fought in the prequels (no http://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gifhttp://forums.eyesonff.com/images/smilies/rpg_009.gif, Sherlock). The first game states that Heartless didn't exist until Ansem's (both the real and the fake) experiments. Nobodies therefore, must not have existed until after the first Heartless formed, and even then, Nobodies are formed from the desires of a person who is willing in the first place. Even if we went by the original Ansem reports, Xemnas doesn't appear until the end of the last one, which is only slightly before the beginning of KHI, and after he found out how to manufacture false Heartless.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I see it slightly different from Tav.

In KH my impression is this:

The body: simple, the physical existence
The heart: from what the Nobodies say, it is definitely the emotions perhaps also consciousness too as Kairi without her heart was little more than a shell.
The soul: I'd say it defines your existence, not whether or not you are alive. I think it is some greater thing that carries from life to life.

I say this about the soul since Ven looks a lot like Roxas (his visit to Destiny Island is perhaps a foreshadowing). Now, we know that Nobodies are simply body and soul. This is why they Nobodies differ from their original in looks, the heart is not there to form the consciousness, to mold the body different from the soul. Since Nobodies are just body and soul, the only thing there to mold the physical form --the body-- is the soul. Since KHI was about Heartless, KHII Nobodies, we can assume BBS is going to be about souls (obvious, I know). To put this all together, I think perhaps Sora is a reincarnation of Ven. The fact that Roxas and Ven look so much alike and Ven visits Destiny Island has to be more than just poor plot and character design.

[scrumpleberry]

You know they're just going to add some other crappy spiritual component for the next game, so don't worry about it.

[Tavrobel]

You know they're just going to add some other crappy spiritual component for the next game, so don't worry about it.


religion r = new religion(3000000000, "Jesus");
System.out.println("Religion has successfully been imported. Commence pew pew. qq eliminated.");

[Jessweeee♪]

xD

[Ouch!]

The first game states that Heartless didn't exist until Ansem's (both the real and the fake) experiments.
I was under the impression that shadow heartless existed before the experiments and that all the other "variations" of heartless are merely the result of the experiments conducted in Hollow Bastion. I thought they'd always been around, but in numbers too few to pose a threat, and they'd merely been mass manufactured during the experiments.

[blackmage_nuke]

The first image that came to my mind was Sora slicing away at aborted feutuses with his keyblade.

Anyway for some reason heartless have hearts and no bodies and nobodies have bodies but no hearts. So maybe unbirths are actually born no souls or something and later on we'll have Souless with souls but arent born.

[Wolf Kanno]

A little off topic, when I first saw screenshots of Birth by Sleep, I thought Terra (without his armor) looked like Zack and thought I had saw the first FF cameo for the game...

I thought, I remember both games stating that the Heartless existed before Ansem's experiments as well.

Its weird how the Unbirths (at least from the few small screenshots we have) look surprisingly similar to the Heartless, so part of me wonders if there is more of a connection with them. Perhaps an Unbirth is a strain of Heartless that had hearts so strong they were changed differntly when attacked by Heartless? Becoming something else rather rather than a Heartless. I just wonder cause usually the names have significant meaning and Unbirth sounds like a reversal of a process rather than a Heartless who seeks Heart, and a Nobody who seeks an identity.

Just an "out there" theory...

[Tavrobel]

I was under the impression that shadow heartless existed before the experiments and that all the other "variations" of heartless are merely the result of the experiments conducted in Hollow Bastion. I thought they'd always been around, but in numbers too few to pose a threat, and they'd merely been mass manufactured during the experiments.

I interpreted it as that his experiments included the "research of the Heart" even before he got to the mass-manufacturing, which is the first time that the players knows that a character interacted with a Heartless, for sure. One can relate the growth of Heartless to the breaking of the Gummi barriers that protected each world. Though it can be said that they destroyed worlds before, there was no way for each Heartless to get past the Gummi barriers until Mickey and Ansem's attempts at stellar communication.

In effect, they could exist, but no appreciable effect could be felt elsewhere and only for that world. They would have to formed only on that world.

[Mercen-X]

What... is an Unbirth?

What can be gleaned of its intent through the name alone? It's confusing. I really think they could've chosen a better name.

Anyway, in regard to what the creatures might look like. Based on what we've seen of Heartless and Nobodies, there would likely be primary supreme Unbirths and of course grunt-like Unbirths. My theory is that either one will definitely look like children. That was my theory when I came up with the Grim: the group I was going to introduce in my KH fanfic to complete the trifecta. Like the Nobodies, the Unbirths will have identifiable superiors but unlike their adult counterparts, they won't be uniform. Any Unbirth grunts that may exist would be considered too young to be able to express their own individuality and thus come across as smaller versions of common Nobodies or perhaps even Shadow Heartless. (anybody ever wonder if Vivi was a Shadow?)

I actually created the Grim with the hope of having Axel return in some form. He was cool and I was disappointed when he faded away. I hope the Unbirths live up to my expectations and I really hope that at least one member of the Organization will return in this form. (likely that would be Zexion)

[Hiwatouri]

hm....what i'm thinking is that If Heartless are Entities of the dark and it was said the Nobodies were to put it in balance, If a Heartless were created then a nobody was formed. but what if there has to be a light counter part to the heartless, Being Unbirths. This may have already been repeated once before in a different use of wording.

[Tavrobel]

likely that would be Zexion

Why him? Not to insult your idea or anything, but I fail to have seen anything from the games that would suggest that Zexion is any different from the other Organization's first six members. He might have been the youngest (and therefore, the most idealistic), but at his core, he was just like Vexen and Lexaeus, or Luxord and Xaldin for that matter.

The only other way that I think you could mean is that his untimely demise at the hands of the clone Riku could affect his respawn? If so, then it could possibly stand that Lexaeus would return as well (even though it was the real Riku in this instance). If we wanted to take it even further, Vexen or Axel could show up again; the others were defeated by Sora.


hm....what i'm thinking is that If Heartless are Entities of the dark and it was said the Nobodies were to put it in balance, If a Heartless were created then a nobody was formed. but what if there has to be a light counter part to the heartless, Being Unbirths. This may have already been repeated once before in a different use of wording.

You are confusing your causalities. Nobodies form because a Heartless is formed, not the other way around. Just because a Heartless forms does not guarantee that a Nobody would form. There's no balance here, it's just a shell that the person left behind when discarding their Heart.

Unbirths have yet to be explained in full, but any guess is as good as anything else. Sounds really obvious, though.

[Mercen-X]

Seems... Heartless are creatures without hearts or more accurately, the raw darkness dwelling within any heart taking on a form of its own. Heartless have always existed because darkness has always existed just as has light. Because of Xehanort's strong heart, he was able to maintain his physical form (this is notable of all the Disney villains as well). Kairi never became a Heartless because her heart migrated to Sora's body instead. Sora then regained his form after Kairi shared her light with him. Riku willingly delved into the darkness but as he was possessed by Xehanort's Heartless, he never actually became a Heartless himself. This makes these four characters unique.
Nobodies are bodies left behind. They are called Nobodies because they have no real identity. They are nothing. Without their hearts, they can't experience or express emotion (apparently rage and despair are not true emotions, possibly derivative of the fact they are products of darkness). Nobodies can only be formed from people whose desires surpassed the strength of their hearts... as I put it. This leaves leftover desire in the body once the heart has left.
The Unbirths are obviously meant to embody characters that were never born. To be born, you must come into existence with a body, a heart, and most importantly, a soul. Obviously, Unbirths must be without souls. This would make them but a representation of the body and heart. Emotional, infantile, random, indecisive... not clear whose side they're on, probably. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Unbirths don't fight you.

[Hiwatouri]

I like that theory, seems a lot more logical. but then we wonder, Was Xehanort trying to be like Weiss from FFVII Dirge of Cereberus, and trying to gather a pure source? I know it's a tad off but in KHII the scenario of Xehanort creating Kingdom Hearts is similar to Weiss Resurrecting Omega isn't it?

[sir helix]

sorry but i realy didnt feel like reading every post so here mine.

the heart and body need tobe cunnected, the soul provides this, so with out a soul the body and heart couldn't coexist.

[Necronopticous]

That you guys actually try to make sense of this ridiculous mess of a milked premise is kind of cute.



religion r = new religion(3000000000, "Jesus");
System.out.println("Religion has successfully been imported. Commence pew pew. qq eliminated.");

That religion class should be capitalized. Bad form, Tav.

[Mercen-X]

I like that theory, seems a lot more logical. but then we wonder, Was Xehanort trying to be like Weiss from FFVII Dirge of Cereberus, and trying to gather a pure source? I know it's a tad off but in KHII the scenario of Xehanort creating Kingdom Hearts is similar to Weiss Resurrecting Omega isn't it?

Yeah, I guess Weiss was trying to obtain a pure source of life and Xehamnas was searching out an abundant source of pure darkness. The question remains: What would occur if either obtained their end goal? We know that the world of FF7 would be doomed if the lifestream were completely absorbed, there's no guessing there, but what about Kingdom Hearts?

[Eiko Guy]

So every time we come back there's a new enemy? First heartless then nobodies then unbirths wow. I'm getting more anxious by the day.

[sir helix]

offtopic: yay eikos back

its one big circle jerk if you ask me, i had to replay kh2 to understand a few things, not incuding a replay of com, the unbirths should be very interesting