About the nature of the world of ffxii

[Future Esthar]

The world of ffxii is a very special world.
It is a world haunted by the Ocurria.
We all know how powerful the Ocurria are.
They are even seen as gods.
I wanna to suggest they are powerful enough to split time.
Since it is no problem to Square to repeat the themes of their games I would go as far as to suggest that:
(take your seatbelts)
(take your seatbelts)
(take your seatbelts)
(take your seatbelts.....)
(take your seatbelts.....1)
(take your seatbelts....2)
(take your seatbelts....3)

KERWON+PURVAMA=ORDALIA+VALENDIA ON THE FUTURE.

As simple as that.

It´s a future in a timeline where the Bahamut crashed Rabanastre.

I wanna to provide evidence but just wanna to give you time to think about this theory.

[demondude]

Good lord, no.

[Bolivar]

Yes!

[Wolf Kanno]

Hate to burst your bubble but Kerwon and Purvama cannot be Ordalia and Valendia.

Mostly cause both regions already exist in XII's time and you visit one of them. Ordalia is to the west of where XII takes place and is occupied by the military state of Rozarria. Valendia is the region where Archades is located (and Lea Monde ;)) while Kerwon is Rabanastre and most of where XII takes place. Purvama is sealed at this time but but regions like Bhujerba suggest that floating islands are rather common in this universe.

Besides, if the Occuria could manipulate time and space, then how could destroying their Nethicite "break men from the shackles of oppression" by their rule?

[qwertysaur]

The Galtaen Peninsula (Where Dalmasca is) Is part of Ordalia.

[crazybayman]

OH MYLANTA

[Future Esthar]

Because the Occurria aren´t really Gods.

[Ashelia B'nargin Dalmasca]

uh huh.... well im stumped! =D The Occurria are like the Fath to me from Final Fantasy X- X2 and I still dun fully understand what their purpose was, so all is lost! x3

[Wolf Kanno]

The Galtaen Peninsula (Where Dalmasca is) Is part of Ordalia.

Oops, forgot that... :sweatdrop:


Because the Occurria aren´t really Gods.

That's kind of a vague retort. Could you explain you reasoning?


uh huh.... well im stumped! =D The Occurria are like the Fath to me from Final Fantasy X- X2 and I still dun fully understand what their purpose was, so all is lost! x3

The Occurians are a mystery I'm afraid. Their origins are unknown but their role is that of a manipulator of the lower races. They basically use their near immortality and advanced knowledge to shape history and the fates of those who live in Ivalice. The Dynast-King was the last pawn of the Occurians who was granted power over the god-like nethicite in order to conquer the Galtean region and create the Galtean Alliance. The Occurian Venat chose to expose the Occurians and their secrets to Dr. Cid and Lord Vayne. This was how Archades learned to create manufacted nethicite (artificial nethicite).

The Occurians tried to manipulate Lady Ashe into following in her ancestors (Dynast-King) steps. They were going to give her nethicite from the Sun-Cryst; in order for her to use it to destroy Archades and the traitor Venat. The ghost of Rassler that is seen occasionally is an illusion created by the Occurians in order to fuel Lady Ashe's anger and desire to avenge her kingdom.

[Future Esthar]

They aren´t Gods but the soul of an evil man that lives on Ashe´s time and planned ahead his future Godliness(a.k.a the true villain of FFXII).
They aren´t really separate entities but different instances of the same entity.This is a nethicite effect.They aren´t omnipresent ever.They need mist (solified or gasified) to walk in the world(and through time).This is seen on the many "Rasler" appearances.

[trancekuja]

Do you think that SE should have provided more details on some aspects of the XII , Occurria for example? I had a feeling few times during my gameplay that SE wasn't able to fit in all the details they wanted and that some dialogs ended too early...

[sir helix]

Ivalice gives me a friggen head ache, to many games in the same universe with to many stories that never intertwine...

[Wolf Kanno]

They aren´t Gods but the soul of an evil man that lives on Ashe´s time and planned ahead his future Godliness(a.k.a the true villain of FFXII).
They aren´t really separate entities but different instances of the same entity.This is a nethicite effect.They aren´t omnipresent ever.They need mist (solified or gasified) to walk in the world(and through time).This is seen on the many "Rasler" appearances.

I'm intrigued to hear who this "evil man" is and how you came up with this theory.

Even the Ultimania stated very little on the Occurians only mentioning two by name. I know they are not "true gods" but I feel if they had the time/space manipulation power, they would never have had any problems with Venat or need of Lady Ashe. The plot kinda falls apart if they had powers that reach into those realms.


Do you think that SE should have provided more details on some aspects of the XII , Occurria for example? I had a feeling few times during my gameplay that SE wasn't able to fit in all the details they wanted and that some dialogs ended too early...

Its true XII was rushed and pretty ambitious. The main writer said he had some issues with the team agreeing about the course of the story and I feel its most apparent in the end. The Ultimania explains a few things better but it hardly adds anything; except it actually explains Basch and Noah's falling out.

I feel the major plot issue is really how much Lord Vayne changes between sending Gabranth to the Pharos to the actual Last Dungeon. Before, Vayne seemed like an anti-hero and almost a suffering martyr for his high goals but by the last dungeon he suddenly transforms into your usual megalomaniac with a god complex. The Ultimania describes his true personality being the former, as an idealist fighting for his brother and humanity.

[Moon Rabbits]

The plot kinda falls apart if they had powers that reach into those realms.

No, the plot completely falls apart if the Occurians could control time. If they could control time, then the Esper revolt / failage of the Garif / King Raithwall business wouldn't've even happened.

Theory over.

edit: Oh yeah, and they could, I don't know, go back in time and kill Venat.

[Future Esthar]

I said the Gods were the same entity which makes it obvious that Venat and Gerugen are the same entity.That thing about fighting the Gods was crap to manipulate humans (and leading Cid to the CREATION of DEIFIED nethicite using magicite).


I know they are not "true gods" but I feel if they had the time/space manipulation power, they would never have had any problems with Venat or need of Lady Ashe. The plot kinda falls apart if they had powers that reach into those realms.



Which part of "Occurians need gasified mist and solified mist(nethicite) to have powers and stay on the world" you didn´t read?

[Wolf Kanno]

I said the Gods were the same entity which makes it obvious that Venat and Gerugen are the same entity.That thing about fighting the Gods was crap to manipulate humans (and leading Cid to the CREATION of DEIFIED nethicite using magicite).

You have a major logic flaw here. Venat and Gerugen opposed each and it was Venat selling the Occurians secrets that makes him a heretic among their kind. If the whole point was to give mankind the power of nethicite, then why bother with the charade or making it sound like opposing forces, their is nothing to gain for the Occurians nor is there any strong evidence to support this theory.

It seems obvious, when you look at the game that the Occurians are more than one entity, Gerugen and Venat are very different from each other. There is no evidence or hint that the Occurians are connected, whether mentally or spiritually as a single intelligence.




I know they are not "true gods" but I feel if they had the time/space manipulation power, they would never have had any problems with Venat or need of Lady Ashe. The plot kinda falls apart if they had powers that reach into those realms.

Which part of "Occurians need gasified mist and solified mist(nethicite) to have powers and stay on the world" you didn´t read?

What logic are you missing then? If the Occurians could manipulate time and space then there is no way the nethicite could be destroyed cause the Occurians could prevent it from ever happening. Even with Venat's help, Venat would most likely be caught in an eternal loop of running away from the others to ever be able to get anything done since the others with their power of time and space could always stop Venat's. They are near immortal and though nethicite grants them god-like powers, there is nothing in any of the Ivalice titles to suggest they could manipulate time and space.

[Future Esthar]

Humanity fighting against each other,for that instance.That is what they gain.Look at them like ghosts.Ghosts are a "nothing" that can´t interact with physical things and can´t hardly stay on this world.But mist help them stay and the more the density around them the more powerful they are.They interact enough to manipulate humans.They need to if they wanna to conquer the world.Humans are "solid" enough to carry on the plans unlike the Ocurria which hardly can move beyound mist.
Venat must teach Cid to make deified nethicite hoping he would finish making the sun cryst.
Without the sun cryst the Ocurruians can´t exist.They still appear after the destruction of the sun cryst because they came from a timeline where the characters made the wrong decisions and where the Bahamut killed Ondorre and crashed with Rabanastre.
Kerwon era belong to this timeline.

[Wolf Kanno]

Humanity fighting against each other,for that instance.That is what they gain.Look at them like ghosts.Ghosts are a "nothing" that can´t interact with physical things and can´t hardly stay on this world.But mist help them stay and the more the density around them the more powerful they are.They interact enough to manipulate humans.They need to if they wanna to conquer the world.Humans are "solid" enough to carry on the plans unlike the Ocurria which hardly can move beyound mist.
Venat must teach Cid to make deified nethicite hoping he would finish making the sun cryst.
Without the sun cryst the Ocurruians can´t exist.They still appear after the destruction of the sun cryst because they came from a timeline where the characters made the wrong decisions and where the Bahamut killed Ondorre and crashed with Rabanastre.
Kerwon era belong to this timeline.

That last part makes little sense...

To be honest, the Occurians already control the world, they already have the power to manipulate humanity, and the Dynast-King is proof of this. I'm afraid I feel you have missed the point of XII's plot if you seriously believe in this theory.

First, Cid cannot make "Deified Nethicite", the Ultimania explains that Deified Nethicite is Nethicite created by the Occurians who are considered gods, hence the term "deified". Cid could only make Manufacted Nethicite and it was used to make Vanye and Judge Bergen more powerful as well as power the Sky Fortress Bahamut. They seeked the shards of deified nethicite that belonged to the Dynast-King in order to learn how to make it. Cid did not make the Sun-Cryst, cause it existed in the Dynast-King's time and is stated in the game to be the creation of the Occurians.

The point of teaching it to humans was suppose to allow humanity to no longer need the powers of the Gods cause they could create themselves thus ridding them of the Occurians influence on history. The whole thing borrows heavily from the Greek tale of Promethius.
There is also no evidence to suggest the Occurians are directly related to the Mist or need it. Venat is proof that these "ghosts" can interact with the material plane as they please.

[champagne supernova]

Venat is proof that these "ghosts" can interact with the material plane as they please.

To emphasise Wolf's point, Venat speaks to Dr Cid in Archades. There is not a high concentration of mist there. Venat also protects Cid at least once in the game, interacting with the material plane.

[Future Esthar]

o be honest, the Occurians already control the world, they already have the power to manipulate humanity, and the Dynast-King is proof of this. I'm afraid I feel you have missed the point of XII's plot if you seriously believe in this theory.

Of course they already achieved they requirements.AND NOT.Why?Because there is a time loop-involved here.That is what I am trying to say.Basically Y(the true villain of FFXII) wanna Cid to create the basis for the Sun Cryst and a ship like Bahamut.Therefore he wanna Cid to fill the Bahamut with the cryst mist and crashed into Rabanastre while killing Bujerbans and the Marquis in the process.That happened on another timeline and it probably affected the weather on the Giza plains raising the water level during the rains.
Rabanastre was then flooded on water and Bahamut would be near the center of the city.The city,haunted by the recently appeared Occurria would change a lot.The moogle teleporters would become more powerful.The city would become what we know as Giruvegan.
In order for the time loop to work,the Occurria needed to "Compress time" so that Cid can travel to the sun cryst.
Cid created little shards of deified nethicite which were still imperfect.When the world was haunted on the first timeline the Occurria haunted these shards creating the sun cryst.
To explain better:
Valendia+Ordalia=Era A(past)
Kerwon(includes the waterfall island)=Era B(future)
1-The Bahamut was filled with the mist of the sun cryst on Era B
2-nethicite is created by Cid on Era A
3-Bahamut got from era B to Era A and crashed with Rabanastre.
4-Rabanastre became Geruvegan.
5-Occuria haunts the nethicites created by Cid and it becomes the Sun Cryst
6-Time passes and era B came.
7-Step 1 happens.
Therefore there is a Time Loop.
The Occuria needed to magically join Era A with Era B through space to easily deceive people(including Cid)
Therefore that thing about defying the Gods is crap to proceed with their time-loop agenda.

To emphasise Wolf's point, Venat speaks to Dr Cid in Archades. There is not a high concentration of mist there. Venat also protects Cid at least once in the game, interacting with the material plane.
Of course it is.solified mist(a.k.a nethicite).
I am not saying they can´t move a little beyond the mist(solid or gas).
It´s like fish out of water.They keep surviving as long as they didn´t stay out too much time.
Nethicite seems to behave like Alladin´s lamp.Cid and Vayne have shards of nethicite.And Cid meet Venat first on Geruvegan.

[Bahamut2000X]

You know Future Esthar's posts are comedic gold once you realize he's not posting crazy conspiracy theories, he's just a comedic genius! :monster:

[Future Esthar]

I take the theory seriously.

[Wolf Kanno]

o be honest, the Occurians already control the world, they already have the power to manipulate humanity, and the Dynast-King is proof of this. I'm afraid I feel you have missed the point of XII's plot if you seriously believe in this theory.
Of course they already achieved they requirements.AND NOT.Why?Because there is a time loop-involved here.That is what I am trying to say.Basically Y(the true villain of FFXII) wanna Cid to create the basis for the Sun Cryst and a ship like Bahamut.Therefore he wanna Cid to fill the Bahamut with the cryst mist and crashed into Rabanastre while killing Bujerbans and the Marquis in the process.That happened on another timeline and it probably affected the weather on the Giza plains raising the water level during the rains.
Rabanastre was then flooded on water and Bahamut would be near the center of the city.The city,haunted by the recently appeared Occurria would change a lot.The moogle teleporters would become more powerful.The city would become what we know as Giruvegan.
In order for the time loop to work,the Occurria needed to "Compress time" so that Cid can travel to the sun cryst.
Cid created little shards of deified nethicite which were still imperfect.When the world was haunted on the first timeline the Occurria haunted these shards creating the sun cryst.
To explain better:
Valendia+Ordalia=Era A(past)
Kerwon(includes the waterfall island)=Era B(future)
1-The Bahamut was filled with the mist of the sun cryst on Era B
2-nethicite is created by Cid on Era A
3-Bahamut got from era B to Era A and crashed with Rabanastre.
4-Rabanastre became Geruvegan.
5-Occuria haunts the nethicites created by Cid and it becomes the Sun Cryst
6-Time passes and era B came.
7-Step 1 happens.
Therefore there is a Time Loop.
The Occuria needed to magically join Era A with Era B through space to easily deceive people(including Cid)
Therefore that thing about defying the Gods is crap to proceed with their time-loop agenda.

To emphasise Wolf's point, Venat speaks to Dr Cid in Archades. There is not a high concentration of mist there. Venat also protects Cid at least once in the game, interacting with the material plane.Of course it is.solified mist(a.k.a nethicite).
I am not saying they can´t move a little beyond the mist(solid or gas).
It´s like fish out of water.They keep surviving as long as they didn´t stay out too much time.
Nethicite seems to behave like Alladin´s lamp.Cid and Vayne have shards of nethicite.And Cid meet Venat first on Geruvegan.


First off, there is nothing and I repeat nothing in the game to support any of your claims. The Ultimania alone debunks all of it I'm afraid, and you missed the point that Cid cannot create Deified Nethicite cause in order for it to be Deified it has to have been made by the Occurians, this is specifically stated in the Ultimania. The Occurians do not show anything like the ability you are saying and if they did have such power they would not have been defeated cause they could have easily protected the Sun-Cryst.

The Bahamut has nothing in common with Giruvegan and Cid could not magically go into the past, even with the help of the Occurians. There is nothing in the game, the series, or the Ultimania to support this theory at all. There is no evidence of time travel, just being that live almost eternally and have manipulated the "lower races" to serve their interest. The Ultimania even gives an actual timeline and nothing you have stated is in there.

[Future Esthar]

I think the Occurrians can´t fight humans physically.They can only possess people who makes wrong decisions.That is why they can´t protect the sun cryst.
I don´t understand how people missed the fact that the background of the labyrinth on the middle of Giruvegan is exactly the same that we see on the Bahamut wirlwind on the beggining of the scene where we enter the final dungeon(the war between Bahamut and Bujerba).
And understand this:Deified Nethicite didn´t exist.All of these special shards comes from the sun cryst which is nothing more than manufactured nethicited haunted by the Occurria .Can´t you see what is the pharos on the past?Try to guess(66 is the first floor number that we see on the pharos and the lowest we see on some other place.This can´t be a coincidence).The Occurria is obviously lying if they are conspiring.Duh.
Cid don´t go magically to the past.He does it through space and ends there because they joined the eras spacially(some sort of magic).Cid doesn´t even know about the time travel.
Read my simplified explanation of the time loop,please.And time travel is hinted countless on the names of the maps.

[Wolf Kanno]

...um...ok...

You've really lost me and no I don't see the resemblance between the part of Giruvegan and Bahamut you mention. I don't see how the Occurians possess people who make "bad decisions", Though Venat protects Cid at Draklor with his power and then uses more powers to help Cid in Pharos, going so far to knock Gabranth around. The Ultimania states the Sun-Cryst is Deified Nethicite created by the Occurians and not Cid, Cid basically gloats at The Pharos about his Manufacted Nethicite being better than the Occurians. There is no time travel and the time line shown in the Ultimania makes no connections whatsoever. There is no great mystery. Matsuno has always been about detail and god knows XII has plenty of this.

I'm afraid, I feel you are trying to make more out of this than there is and whereas VIII's story had enough flaws to make it plausible, XII does not. Its story is pretty cut and dry and there is no secret conspiracy with the Occurians, except the one where they control history from the shadows by using their influence. It doesn't help that Vayne and Cid's goal was for Ashe to destroy the Sun-Cryst to begin with so "mankind could take back the reigns of history" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLuscQo6r9c&feature=PlayList&p=BF315A3BB1ECDFEB&index=53) Why would Venat allow this to happen despite it being their only link to the world?

I also don't remember any of your "time" references" you speak of. Unless your talking about the poem concerning Giruvegan which is more about existing from time immortal, The closest Ivalice ever got to time travel was explaining how Balthier magically appeared in FFTactics.

[McLovin']

The closest Ivalice ever got to time travel was explaining how Balthier magically appeared in FFTactics.

You have opened Pandora's Box xD

[Future Esthar]

As far as I remember Vayne and Cid don´t wanna Ashe to destroy the sun Crystal.This is the very reason they fought Cid.
Venat wanna to convince Ashe to use the nethicite to fight Archades.The idea is to take Bujerban and the Marquis right on the middle of the nethicite fight.Wether it is an aerial or a floor fight.

Now let me reveal some things to you concerning the two eras:

Giruvegan is Rabanastre on the future.
The Feyood is probably the sandsea on the future.
The plains near Giza are the Easthersand.
Henne Mines is the Nalbina passage.
Golmore Jungle is the SaliskaWood.
Paramina Rift is Mesphoran Higwaste since it is a mountaneous region.
The Necrohol of Nabudis is the Stillshrine of Miriam.
The Temple would be right at the top of Mesphoran.
The Phon Coast is either Bujerba or a flooded Continent(I don´t know).
The plains near Archades are flooded on the future.

l

[Wolf Kanno]

As far as I remember Vayne and Cid don´t wanna Ashe to destroy the sun Crystal.This is the very reason they fought Cid.
Venat wanna to convince Ashe to use the nethicite to fight Archades.The idea is to take Bujerban and the Marquis right on the middle of the nethicite fight.Wether it is an aerial or a floor fight.

Actually, Cid just wanted her not to destroy it until he allowed the Sun-Cryst to spill all of its Mist into the land to help power up the Sky Fortress Bahamut. He actually scolded Gabranth for trying to prevent Lady Ashe from destroying it.

[Bahamut2000X]

As far as I remember Vayne and Cid don´t wanna Ashe to destroy the sun Crystal.This is the very reason they fought Cid.
Venat wanna to convince Ashe to use the nethicite to fight Archades.The idea is to take Bujerban and the Marquis right on the middle of the nethicite fight.Wether it is an aerial or a floor fight.

It's like he hasn't even played the game and just read a list of characters, objects, and places and mad libbed it.


Now let me reveal some things to you concerning the two eras

You can't reveal something that doesn't exist.

[Future Esthar]

Cid fights Ashe for trying to destroy the cryst.

Anyways we have Arcades left.Any guesses to were it is on the future?

[Bahamut2000X]

Anyways we have Arcades left.Any guesses to were it is on the future?

Archades.


Cid fights Ashe for trying to destroy the cryst.


Actually, Cid just wanted her not to destroy it until he allowed the Sun-Cryst to spill all of its Mist into the land to help power up the Sky Fortress Bahamut. He actually scolded Gabranth for trying to prevent Lady Ashe from destroying it.

It's like you ignore things that contradict what you say.

[Future Esthar]

Of course.What I mean is that he don´t wanna to waste the sun´s power.And Venat also.That´s what matters not the cryst itself.
As long as Bujerba and the Marquis came to Rabanastre and fall on their trap and Archades can shot Ondorre with mist that´s what matter(this particular plan is from Venat,not Archades).

[Bolivar]

With mist highly concentrated in the areas you mentioned, I could see them being alternate timelines that you step into. Like when you see the reflections of your party on the mist, that's alternate timelines you're glancing into.

I like this theory.

[Goldenboko]

Grammar.

Archades can shot Ondorre with mist that´s what matter
It be hard to fail much as you died.

[Future Esthar]

Interesting idea,Bolivar.It could also be the souls a little ahead of the bodies.Like their auras.
And for those person who don´t believe there is time travel consider the space warp thinguies that happen on the region near Giruvegan (the region where the King Behemot is fought).

[Wolf Kanno]

Of course.What I mean is that he don´t wanna to waste the sun´s power.And Venat also.That´s what matters not the cryst itself.
As long as Bujerba and the Marquis came to Rabanastre and fall on their trap and Archades can shot Ondorre with mist that´s what matter(this particular plan is from Venat,not Archades).

I still don't see any in-game evidence to suggest your theory about a time paradox, and I feel your theory pretty much destroys the point of the storyline of XII, FE.


With mist highly concentrated in the areas you mentioned, I could see them being alternate timelines that you step into. Like when you see the reflections of your party on the mist, that's alternate timelines you're glancing into.

I like this theory.

You! Stop encouraging him. Bad Bolivar bad! No cookie for you! :mad2:


Interesting idea,Bolivar.It could also be the souls a little ahead of the bodies.Like their auras.
And for those person who don´t believe there is time travel consider the space warp thinguies that happen on the region near Giruvegan (the region where the King Behemot is fought).

You mean the puzzle created to keep people out? How is that a time warp? It just shows an illusion to light the way to those who seek Giruvegan. I feel you are jumping to conclusions here.

[Future Esthar]

Archades is the Riddoranna Cataract on the future.

I told you the plains near Archades are submerged on the future.And Archades seems to be on the top of a mountain.A river comes from this mountain splitting in two as seen on the map.A bridge on Archades go accross the river.
Maybe the mist caused an overflow of the river(It seems to have the power to grow the monsters size so maybe it do with substances too).
If you still don´t believe consider the many similarities between the Hell Wyrm and Yazmat.
Now,the identity of the pharos on the past is your homework.

[champagne supernova]

Now,the identity of the pharos on the past is your homework.

Wow, that's not arrogant at all.

[Future Esthar]

The pharos IS the Draklor Laboratory on the future (it grows).