Ultimecia was deceived

[Serapy]

by Final Fantasy VIII: Trial Version. Yes, apparently.

Compare from this trial version to the full-released version and you get so many different results. In the former version, there wasn`t any Selphie or Quistis in it. Squall, Zell and Rinoa were in it and they all wore non-official clothes like the clothes they wore in the full version`s SeeD missions. It was as if the whole dollet mission was SeeD related (SeeD mission).

It`s obvious that Square had changed the original script. They replaced Rinoa with Selphie (new character) and replaced the soldier who was shooting at X-ATM092 with Quistis (new character). They adjusted the look of Squall`s face. They wore clothes like the candidate ones.

From the look of it, it`s possible that Rinoa was meant to be a SeeD in the original script.
So Ultimecia was deceived by this original script, therefore labelling Rinoa and Irvine as SeeDs at the end of the game (saying SeeD six times in a row). Or did Square forget to change this bit?

This is interesting.

At Balamb Garden when Squall was bumped by Selphie, could that have been Rinoa?

Isn`t it ironic that Selphie asked Squall for a tour of the Garden in the beginning and then later in the game, Rinoa asked him the same question?

[Jessweeee♪]

I think it didn't matter to Ulty that she wasn't a real SeeD, seeing as she was fighting with them anyhow :p

[Roogle]

Development teams usually assemble a party to show off a balanced, appealing party.

The Final Fantasy VII demo had a party consisting of Cloud, Barret, and Aeris and Aeris was equipped with the Leviathan Materia despite the fact that you do not receive that until much later in the game. The Final Fantasy VIII demo had a party consisting of Squall, Zell, and Rinoa despite the fact that there is no storyline reason for Rinoa to be present.

This may be because the developers felt Rinoa was a more appealing character to those trying out the game? The characters were dressed in normal attire as opposed to the stuffy SeeD uniforms, too, maybe to appeal to those trying out the game and not lend the impression that the characters would dress alike for the entirety of a game?

[MJN SEIFER]

From the look of it, it`s possible that Rinoa was meant to be a SeeD in the original script.
So Ultimecia was deceived by this original script, therefore labelling Rinoa and Irvine as SeeDs at the end of the game (saying SeeD six times in a row). Or did Square forget to change this bit?


No offence, but I really don't think that Ultimecia was literally refering to six Seeds during her rant, even if Rinoa was meant to be in the game earlier, how does Irvine fit in?

I think Roogle could be right about it just being to "show off a balanced appealing party", but as I am not from Square I can't say for certain - it is not uncomon for games to have differences in the eairly stages (there are some games out there, where if you played the first version, you wouldn't believe it was the same game. - RE2 springs to mind here.)






At Balamb Garden when Squall was bumped by Selphie, could that have been Rinoa?

Isn`t it ironic that Selphie asked Squall for a tour of the Garden in the beginning and then later in the game, Rinoa asked him the same question?


Again, I can't say for certain, but it is ironic - perhaps something was edited there, or it could just be a coincidence. Nice thought though.

[Serapy]

Development teams usually assemble a party to show off a balanced, appealing party [...]

That`s true, however, all the trial versions of FF8 are not the same. The trial version was released in the U.S second (after Japan). Both of those have the same effects (Rinoa being in the version). The demo was released in Europe later and I got mine but apparently it was different than the versions of U.S and Japan. My version only consisted of the same things as in the full version (just Quistis, Selphie, Squall and Zell). So I assumed that this was the moment of conception change in the script.

I think that before Square finished developing FF8, it reflected the original script and during that period, they have released the trial version. There`s a label in my version stating "Demonstration purposes only, contents of this game are subject to change".

The thought of Square replacing Rinoa with Selphie in exactly the same position as displayed in the FMV is quite scary. Don`t you think?


No offence, but I really don't think that Ultimecia was literally refering to six Seeds during her rant, even if Rinoa was meant to be in the game earlier, how does Irvine fit in?

The probability of Ultimecia spamming six SeeDs just to emphasise her anger when in fact that there were six people in the room (excluding Ultimecia herself) is pretty low. Six people in the room and her saying six SeeDs may be a quite lucky coincidence but doesn`t seem realistic.

How does Irvine fit in? Well, if Rinoa was a SeeD in the original script, then why not Irvine as well? In the full-released version, you will meet Rinoa and Irvine later in the game. This is just a speculation.

Selphie grew up with others at the orphanage, could that have been Rinoa?

Hehe, I`m beginning to like this Selphie = Rinoa theory.

I noticed something, the relationship of Irvine and Selphie seemed to be more superficial than the relationship of Irvine and Rinoa. Maybe this was the reason why they were hurrying editing the script before the final deadline?

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't really find much solid evidence to back this one up Serapy. Yes there are significant differences between the trial version and the final version but its also just a demo and so its not surprising that Square may have taken a few liberties to make it more exciting by changing things around. Roogle's post demonstrates this theory nicely.

Of anything, it looks like the Trial version could have been a playable Beta test given to fans as many factors of the gameplay were dramatically changed from the Trial version to the full release. Factors that had been criticized I might add (Renzouken trigger bar, draw amount, difficulty)

The major flaw in the theory is that Rinoa does not talk at all in the Trial version nor is her existence even recognized by other characters yet beyond that, all of the dialogue between Seifer, Zell and Squall remained the same as they are found in the full game. To me, this signifies that Rinoa was just there for the sake of the demo. It should also be noted, that I believe until the Trial version was released, the only characters confirmed were Squall and the "girl Squall is holding in the Amano logo". The Trial version was basically her first big reveal.

As for why the PAL demo is changed, its probably because the full versions had been released already in both Japan and the States. The Trial version had been released back when the game was still unfinished and being tested hence the Trial version had a very different battle system. Why then would you release a demo containing faulty gameplay that doesn't represent the actual game?

[Serapy]

The trial version for Europe was released before the full versions were both released in Japan and U.S.

The point is that what caused Square to display such things in the trial version, they must have had a reason. Purpose? To entertain players and encourage them to play the full version when it comes out. But where did such things in the version come from? The script, of course.

Oh, now, this is getting more interesting.

Selphie`s final limit - The End. The background of the limit really resembles the one where Rinoa was standing on ... in the very beginning of the game (the first FMV) and the end of the game where Rinoa was reviving Squall.
Could this have been Rinoa`s final limit?
I think that Rinoa is more of a green-land-with-flowers freelancer than
Selphie. It doesn`t really suit Selphie, so why would her final limit contain such a background like that?

More to come ...

[BardTard]

I think flowers suit Selphie pretty well. She's always like, "love and peace!" and very girly. I don't think it's too weird. But I do think if anybody has a limit break that makes you win no matter what it shoudn't be Selphie. That makes no sense, she's not the main character or a sorceress.

[Serapy]

Selphie: ...Blow it to smithereens with a rocket launcher!?




Selphie: Ok then! Let's stop the missiles, blow the base to
smithereens, and get outta here!




Kid Selphie: Let's play WAR!



Selphie: Well, we could skin this little guy (moomba) and wear him as a
disguise...

^ She got that moomba scared. Not very nice !


Not exactly love and peace :p Rinoa is more suited for love and peace, in my opinion. Square made Selphie more interesting, so it`s kinda not surprising at all.

[The Last Oath]

few interesting points there

[Mercen-X]

Selphie grew up with others at the orphanage, could that have been Rinoa?
There were a total of seven kids at the orphanage. Squall, Seifer, Irvine, Selphie, Quistis, Zell, and Ellone. Six of these kids were meant to become SeeDs: A force to defend the world by defeating the future sorceress. Of course no one remembers because luckily GFs cause frickin' amnesia.
Ellone was merely a sought after device which needed protection thus she was not to become a SeeD like the other six.
It is true that one can consider Rinoa a SeeD as she does fight to defeat Ultimecia. Technically, Rinoa is both a sorceress and a SeeD. My thought, however, is that Ultimecia is somehow referring to Seifer when she says SeeD a sixth time. It occurs to me that Seifer was not defeated alone. Instead, his dreams and the effects of his brainwash had also been defeated and, once again, he could be considered to be a SeeD.
The strongest possibility to conceive is as follows. Ultimecia was merely ranting... but only the sixth SeeD shout was a rant. The first five refer to Squall, Zell, Quistis, Sephie, and Irvine. The sixth SeeD shout refers to the group as a whole and her growing disgust with the concept.

[dream ending sword]

Selphie always came across to me as a hippie girl who occassionally consumed too much sugar/caffine and said the things Seraphy quoted out of a mix of cuteness/ADHD rather than actual belligerence. I also believe that Serapy unfortunately reads far too deeply into FF8 to a level that is far from healthy (no offence meant to ya Serapy :p).

[xXsarahXx]

I can kinda see where you are coming from on this one, weather you are right of not ill guess we will never know but nice find none the less!

[Serapy]

There`s also this computer incident at Trabia Garden, where Selphie became involved and stopped Squall from accessing her files. Basically, there`s something Selphie doesn`t want him know about.
For some reason, this sounds quite irrelevant because the incident grants you the ability to read about Laguna`s adventures on the Balamb School Network at your study panel. Irrelevant how? Selphie (who caused drama in the incident = prerequisite) and disclosures of Laguna`s adventures as a reward don`t seem to be connected with each other.

If you replace Rinoa with Selphie in that incident, it makes more sense.

At Galbadia Garden, Rinoa talked about Seifer, about how great he was. She loved him, had fond memories of him, etc. These information she said were just in general, not very specific (e.g. was he great in bed? etc). Maybe those "specific" information were held in her computer, which sounds more sense if she didn`t want Squall to know about.

It`s either that or a diary about her unusual feelings in relevance to a being of a sorceress. If it`s the latter, then Rinoa obviously didn`t want Squall to be worried when he read her files, so she simply stopped him from accessing her files. Squall fully acknowledged this after this incident.

Ok, so ... that was Rinoa, not Selphie. Although, Rinoa and Laguna are obviously not connected with each other, but there`s a chance that Squall marries Rinoa in the future. So in this case, Rinoa will be in the same family as Laguna. Makes even more sense.

[Typhoon]

At Trabia after the missiles, I didn't think Rinoa was a sorceress yet, I thought that was end of disc 2 stuff yet the Trabia incident was mid disc 2. Idk im pretty tired so dw.

[champagne supernova]

Go read up on the FFXIII demo. Toriyama mentions all the things that will be different later. Demos are just trying to show off the game. Obviously they put Rinoa in the demo because there was a lot of hype around her and people wanted to play her in the demo. However, that was a PR stunt, and not representative of the game.

[Serapy]

Go read up on the FFXIII demo. Toriyama mentions all the things that will be different later. Demos are just trying to show off the game. Obviously they put Rinoa in the demo because there was a lot of hype around her and people wanted to play her in the demo. However, that was a PR stunt, and not representative of the game.

I take it that you didn`t read my previous posts. Particularly one of my posts deverifies your assumption as to why they have put Rinoa in the game. I`ll recap here: not all of the Trial versions have Rinoa in them. Putting Rinoa in the demo based on your assumption seems unlikely. Another agruement would be that if they indeed have put Rinoa in some of the versions because there were hype around her, but then why did they put Quistis in them as well? Also consider the clothes change on them ...

I`ll elaborate on this matter from a different perspective. So, regarding the hype about her, that`s not true. Anyway, I`ve been there and as far as I recall, there wasn't much hype about her. But, more to the point; consider how did the developers acknowledge such hype surrendering around Rinoa existed? It`s not like the developers went to listen fans at very early stage and have decided to put Rinoa in the demo just because the fans hoped to play her. That's too unrealistic and costly.

And as for FFXIII demo, consider that the timespan between FFVIII and FFXIII is so large that everything have changed a lot. Also consider that the early Trial versions are different (the existence of Rinoa) than the newer ones (no Rinoa). So your example (Toriyama) doesn't seem to be likely in this case because they already have changed something in the final release anyway.

They did show off the game. They advertised it. However, you cannot agrue that early Trials, latest demos and the final release are almost the same. The only things that are changed in some of the versions are: Rinoa, Selphie, Quistis and the clothes on SeeD, etc.

[champagne supernova]

Your argument is basically saying that a first draft of something is more canon than the final version. That is a ridiculous proposition. Yes, it would be interesting to see how the game evolved during development, but the final product is the canon version.

This doesn't mean that they did change anything. It's probably most likely that they had finished all of the development of the Rinoa model, but not for Selphie. Therefore it was easier for them to chuck Rinoa for the earlier demos, and replace her with Selphie when they had developed her model.

But even if the developers did change their mind about Rinoa's character, that is their rght. It is the final product which matters, not what they did beforehand. I am not going to believe that the storyline of a first draft of a novel is more correct than the final, published draft.

It would be interesting to see how they developed the story in Final Fantasy, but the developers chose to have a certain story when they released it. Any storyline which was scrapped during development is exactly that - a scrapped storyline.

Basically, it would be interesting to see the development of the story in VIII. However, nothing in the initial storylines has any impact on the final storyline, and is therefore non-canon.

[Serapy]

No, I was not suggesting that the original script may be more canonical than the final release. What in the world makes you think that? I`ve taken a look at my posts just now and I feel that none of them seem to indicate that this may be the case. So, do you mind to clarify? By the way, it would be mind boggling for me if this was the case.

Do we agree with the assumption that the story and certain elements of Final Fantasy VIII are somehow lacking? Such as subtle, unclear, debatable information, open to interpretation, etc. I am not implying anything that is bad, and I personally think that the developers have done a good job with this game. Final Fantasy VIII is no doubt unique when the other Final Fantasy games come into play. This assumption is exactly the origin of this thread.

To add additional reasoning behind my thread, I am simply interested in the ways how the developers have decided to implement [name insert here] and changes into the final version and the reasons behind thier actions. The findings we have discovered so far from the early Trial versions seems to show that such findings indeed came from the very original script. Therefore, this gives us the idea to think about the comparisons between the early versions and the final release. Some of these elements may be plot related, some not. In other words, more clues about the final release ...

Actually, the original script does bring some impact on the final release. These impacts are just minors. By minors, I mean non-plot related ones.

EDIT

I have ... extraordinarily ... discovered something.

I was checking out some of the FMVs in my secret folder and came across this unusual finding. I have converted them into animations, so here goes:

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7128/trial.gif http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/2444/finalmsw.gif

Look at each animation carefully. Notice something? No? Look at the shadows of Selphie and Rinoa (on the ground). The shadow is exact the same, which is Rinoa! If you look hard enough, the shadow of Zell from the Trial version is the same as the one in the Final version as well.

SquareSoft did not replace Rinoa with Selphie 100%

This is evidence that SquareSoft have made a mistake. Therefore, it`s POSSIBLE that they made another similar mistake at the end; Ultimecia saying SEED six times in a row (directed at Rinoa). Or not ... But remember that the dollet mission was for SEED, so if Rinoa was not ACTUALLY a SEED in the original script, it wouldn`t make sense! Unless they added the SEED concept AFTER the exact timeline of this Trial version ... But I somehow doubt it because when making a game, you HAVE to complete the script (it`s sorta like a plan) and convert that script into the game. Because if you don't complete the whole script and all of sudden you just program to make a game, wouldn`t that cause more errors and mistakes than expected? I think so.

So... Why did they change this particular finding? That would be awesome to find out why. Clues hmm.

So... the Do-A-Tour-With-Me situtation (Rinoa and Selphie asking Squall to take a tour at the BG at different interval), that I am still not sure yet. Was that strange? It is either that SquareSoft repeated the same version for Selphie for... unknown reason, or something. I`ll say more about this one later.

I am hoping to find more stuff about the Rinoa = Selphie theory. ;)

[Comet]

That is frightening.

[demondude]

So it's S=R now?

[qwertysaur]

or the person making the FMV in the final version was lazy and just cut a corner by not making Selphie a new shadow that shows up for less than 10 seconds.

Rinoa is in the trial version because she is in the logo of FFVIII. If she was not in the demo somewhere, then many fans of the series would be pressuring Square for more info or another demo, which would not be desirable for making a game at all.

[Serapy]

So it's S=R now?

In some sense, yes.



or the person making the FMV in the final version was lazy and just cut a corner by not making Selphie a new shadow that shows up for less than 10 seconds.

Whoever did that also did the same thing to Zell. I wouldn`t call it lazy, but rather something (e.g. the shadows) they have forgotten to change.



Rinoa is in the trial version because she is in the logo of FFVIII. If she was not in the demo somewhere, then many fans of the series would be pressuring Square for more info or another demo, which would not be desirable for making a game at all.


I doubt it. Before the trial version came out, I clearly remember from reading the PS magazine that it has had provided a list of characters who will be included in Final Fantasy VIII, whom of them were also Selphie, Quistis and Irvine. So, in your case, the fans would be asking for more information about these particular characters as well. Those characters didn`t show up in either Trial / Demo versions, except that Quistis showed up in the Demo version.

And remember that the Trial version and the Demo version are both different. The demo version is exactly the same one you saw from the Final release (the retail version); they just copied the re-edited dollet mission from the Final version as a part of the demo. It`s either that or they have changed the models before working on the Final release. Thus everything is almost the same between those versions. On the other hand, the Trial version just came out way before the demo version, it can be only played on PC, not PS. It`s the only version that contains the original models.

[Rostum]

Just a little insight:

When you render out something, you render it out in different passes (beauty, specular, shadow, zDepth, etc.) and then you composite it in another program (like After Affects, Shake, etc.).

It could very well be that they just cut corners by not having to re-render the shadow passes, considering that it's such a short clip and no where near noticable in the game.

This doesn't mean SquareSoft were lazy or they forgot about it, the most likely case is they were strapped for time and/or it wasn't in the budget to re-render out one small and insignificant shadow pass.

[Serapy]

Just a little insight:

When you render out something, you render it out in different passes (beauty, specular, shadow, zDepth, etc.) and then you composite it in another program (like After Affects, Shake, etc.).

It could very well be that they just cut corners by not having to re-render the shadow passes, considering that it's such a short clip and no where near noticable in the game.


I have replied to you in one of the other threads regarding this problem. I`ll re-cap; if SquareSoft had not enough time to add changes (or rather fix bugs), then why did they bother to take the time to change the way how Rinoa expressed at the end of the game? The copying-and pasting-and-do-re-modification-on-her-face-and-body process does TAKE longer than simply doing a single change. Remember that this is just informal talk so that other people reading this thread can understand what I mean.



This doesn't mean SquareSoft were lazy or they forgot about it, the most likely case is they were strapped for time and/or it wasn't in the budget to re-render out one small and insignificant shadow pass.

The models changes (replacing Rinoa with Selphie, a Solider on the top of the ship with Quistis, the clothes on the rest of the team, etc) were in the budget of SquareSoft or thier plan. All of that is re-modification, therefore it would be logical if they replace the shadows with new ones since they are part of the re-modification as well.

Yes, it`s true that the shadows are hard to tell since you can only see them for like 5 seconds. So, consider that when you have a new script on your hand, you then analyse the whole Trial version and see what needs to be changed according to that script on your hand. You then write down what things are requested to be change and you give that list to the responsible developers. It`s very possible that you will miss the shadows part since they are very easy to miss, therefore you didn`t write that part down. So, they either missed that part or just forgotten about it. Trust me on this one, it doesn`t take THAT long to change the shadow setting and the re-rendering process doesn`t take that long either (assuming that they have had high-tech computers at the time.)

[Rostum]

I'm sorry there's nothing more I can help you with, you are obviously trying to look into this far too much as if it actually matters.

There could be a large number of reasons why they didn't bother changing the shadow pass. We'll never know, and therefore why should we even care? It doesn't mean anything.

In reference to you referencing me in the other thread: You just proved you know absolutely nothing about that subject, so you should really just stop basing any sort of theories on it. Please, just stop it.

Btw. At the time the programs back there weren't as user friendly or easy to just "re-render" a pass. Especially when it comes to shadows (go on, try making a complex scene and render out high quality ray-tracing shadows, and tell me how long it takes you even on today's computers).

[Serapy]

I'm sorry there's nothing more I can help you with, you are obviously trying to look into this far too much as if it actually matters.

What`s wrong with that? It`s fun discussing about it. If it`s bothering you so much, then don`t post.



There could be a large number of reasons why they didn't bother changing the shadow pass. We'll never know, and therefore why should we even care? It doesn't mean anything.


I do care. In relevance, it`s not just the shadow part but also many other things.



In reference to you referencing me in the other thread: You just proved you know absolutely nothing about that subject, so you should really just stop basing any sort of theories on it. Please, just stop it.

Actually, I do know about it. I`ve done a few complex video projects for my college.



Btw. At the time the programs back there weren't as user friendly or easy to just "re-render" a pass. Especially when it comes to shadows (go on, try making a complex scene and render out high quality ray-tracing shadows, and tell me how long it takes you even on today's computers).

Of course not, the programs back then weren`t as user friendly as today`s. However, you did not realise that companies usually provide training lessons for those who don`t know how to use the specific programs. SquareSoft is a rich company, it wouldn`t be a problem for them to hire the teachers for the programs lessons. So, the developers with the right training lessons, they could overcome the user-friendly problems that the programs have had. Not to mention all of the developers worked cooperatively if such problems have occured, which gave them another advantage as well.

Also, remember that they have used the same program for Final Fantasy VII. Obviously, they used the program on FF7 first and then FF8. Assuming that this is the case, there`s a good chance that the developers have gained larger experience from playing around with FF7. It probably have made them feel a bit more comfortable when starting with FF8 because they already have that experience.

And as for the shadow re-render process, it still doesn`t take that long. It`s not like the re-rendering process will be complete in a matter of days and days. Usually a few hours or less, assuming that SquareSoft have had high-tech computers at the time.

[qwertysaur]

FF VIII was the first FF game (and Square game to my knowledge) that used motion capture for the Full motion videos. So actually the developers were playing with something that is new to them.

[Serapy]

Yes, but what I meant is that Final Fantasy VII was the first game for them to develop in both 2D and 3D. They have gained that experience and then they used it to develop the next final fantasy game (VIII). To make things easier because of the experience.

Hey,

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7128/trial.gif
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/4955/finaljvb.gif

Look carefully! Again, SquareSoft didn`t replace the model of Rinoa with Selphie as well as Zell`s normal clothes. Yet, they have changed the clothes of Squall ... ?

I`ll make a new thread about this since it`s about Squall and Zell.