Japanese grammar

[Rye]

I'm doing pretty well in Japanese this semester, I have an A thus far, but I didn't do as well as I'd have liked on my last test because I have a trouble with sentence formation, due to the particles. Since I really want to keep my A, since I'm teetering between a B+ and an A for this semester, I need to get sentence formation down for my final.

Can you guys help me out with basic Japanese particles and when they're used, and sentence examples? The particles I've learned are ga, ni, ho (o), ha (wa), de... I think that's just about all of them. With basic sentences like, say, sushi ho (o) tabemasu, I'm solid. But when you have longer sentences with a lot of stuff going on, I get confused

Thanks guys! :jess:

[Shoeberto]

I'm about six months out of Japanese so I'm a little rusty, but I can try to explain a few things.

ni is always a destination, and in some phrases you have to understand that the literal english translation isn't what the Japanese would use. For example, where we say "take a bath" they say "enter the bath" so the bath is treated as a location. o is for direct objects that you're performing an action on, which you seem to have down.

Wa and Ga are weird particles because they're both technically subject markers. The difference, from what I recall, is placement in the sentence. Wa is always for if you're indicating the subject at the start of the sentence, and ga is for subjects later in the sentence. de is for the location of an action. I think a good way of differentiating between it and ni is like saying "I eat at a restaurant" (something like "resutorando de tabemasu") and "I am going to a restaurant"

Is that helpful at all? It's a little weird. When I had to analyze a long sentence, I would always look for the nouns and verbs I recognized, then try to contextualize to understand the particles. A lot of the way we learned was just through pure repetition of simple phrases using those particles, then expanding on them to more complicated forms and repitition. See if there's anything like that in the book or if your professor could write some example sentences starting from base usage up to more complicated usage with multiple particles.

[Momiji]

I always thought the proper kana for the particle 'o' was を (wo), not ほ (ho). o_O

As for grammar, I have no idea. I taught myself everything I know so far, and I'm always learning new words and trying to teach myself kanji, but I think grammar and kanji will have to come later on if I can manage to take some formal classes. However, learning both hiragana and katakana was a piece of cake for me. :D

[Marshall Banana]

The Summoner of Leviathan posted a really helpful link in the other thread about Japanese; I look at it whenever I have trouble putting together a sentence: Tae Kim's Japanese guide to Japanese grammar (http://www.guidetojapanese.org/)

[Brandless Goods]

Yeah I have a lot of questions about Japanese too. I've studied for a long time so I know a few things but there are still so many confusing things.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I just had a test on keigo (humble/respectful speech) and particles. I got raped by it. Though I will impart what I know about particles, I believe I have a decent grasp of them despite not always doing amazing on my tests.

So some stuff from my text book and notes, as well as my head. BTW I tend to use plain form of verbs over polite, just easier to write them.

So first up is を.

For を I know three distinct uses of it:


direct object of a transitive verb
-日本語を勉強している。 (I am studying Japanese)
to cross a place
-ロケットは宇宙を飛んでいった。 (The rocket travelled through space)
to depart from (figuratively, sorta...can't remember all the details...)
-大学を出る。 ({I} will graduate from university)

Next is the ever useful に.


destination
-大学に行く。(I am going to the university)
indirect object
-母は僕に昼ご飯を食べさせた。(My mother made me eat lunch)
time
-１１時に日本語のクラスが終わる。(Japanese class finishes at 11 o'clock)
-Note: Some time words are not marked by に, such as 明日、今日、昨日、来年, etc...
purpose of movement (used only with verbs of movement)
-スーパーに買いに行く。 (I am going to the supermarket to buy food)
-it is implied here that you are buying food, why else go to the supermarket? Though you could explicitly state it if you want).
location of existence (used with ある and いる)
-猫がいすの上にいる。 (The cat is on the chair)


Now for で.


scope
-カナダではモントリオールの方が一番きれいな町です。(Within Canada, l is the most beautiful city)
by means of
-バスで大学に行った。(By means of the bus, I went to university/I took the/a bus to university)
place of action
-図書館で勉強する。(I study in the library)


So the next one is は.

Basically は is the topic marker in a sentence. That means it is basically defines what you are going to talk about. は implies that both the speaker and the listener are aware of the topic being discussed. Often when the topic is obvious (such as when talking about yourself), it can be omitted.

Now the tricky one, が.

The typical definition of が is the "subject" marker. Basically, while は defines the topic, が marks the subject. From what I understand, が is much more emphatic than は thus the information in front of the が tends to be more important. In cases where you have to choose between は and が, が is used if you want to use more emphasis, though often they can be interchangeable. Also, が is used to mark something the speaker either thinks the listener is unaware of or is unaware of himself (such as if the speaker wanted to know if there was a cat in the room).

I am sorry if this is not helpful but が is like the hardest particle to fully appreciate. I have a hard time knowing the differences between は and が. :/

Also, が is used to mark the indirect object of a intransitive verb.

If anyone notices any mistakes or something is unclear please point it out to me. I am just a student like you guys so I am bound to have mistakes. ^__^;;;

Hopefully this is helpful!

[Momiji]

My head is spinning after reading all of that. x_X

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

There are other less common particles too. It is all fun and confusion :P

[Brandless Goods]

But the best way to learn a language isn't to read it from a text book and try to solve it like a math equation. You gotta go out there and practice it!

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Short-version of what I was going to write:

If you are practising to any degree (through conversation), you will still reflectively analyze the language and form pattern recognitions in much the same way as you would "solve a math equation". The difference is in medium which makes the process different however the mechanics are similar.

Ultimately, the best way is to have a degree of both. Neither one on their own is sufficient to fully grasp a language.

[Brandless Goods]

I can agree with that but it seems like most people just study out of their books about concepts called "particles" and such and get all confused when if they just went out and practiced the language it would all come to sense clean and easy.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

But if you don't know their functions you can't really use them. Also, if you use the wrong particle, it can change the whole meaning of a sentence or a nuance of meaning. So using them without knowing their purpose or role can complicate matters.

1. ロケットは宇宙で飛んでいる。ロケットは宇宙へ飛んでいる。
2. ロケットは宇宙を飛んでいる。

In the first sentence, you are implying that the rocket flew from the Earth to space. In 2., the rocket is flying through space.

By practising you get a better feel for the difference, but you first need to know what the difference is.

A more subtle example is:

1. カレーライスでいい。
2. カレーライスがいい。

The difference between the two rather subtle but important. The first implies that curry rice is sufficient like it is not necessarily the speaker's favourite but they'll make due. The second one implies that they like curry rice.

Personally, the more I practise は/が, the more I understand the differences between when to use which.

Also, conversing in a language is different than writing in a language. Look within the differences in how you write, especially formal essays, and how you talk. The case of Japanese, the distinction is greater in my opinion. Most university classes are geared towards a textual ability rather than conversation which tend to take a secondary place.

Oh and the confusion would still take place with particles when you are talking until you mastered them. There has to be a framework of the language, whether implicitly or explicitly present, in order for the it to flow easily. That framework as you get older becomes more explicit and a lot harder to acquire. It is not as simple as "going out and practising it". Whether you are practising it through conversation and/or by text books, there will always be a point where something is confusing or hard to grasp.

I think your point is more valid in an immersion context, however for most university students such a method is hardly available. The closest thing is to get a language exchange partner (which I really should do!).

EDIT: I realize I being argumentative and opinionated. ^__^;;;

[Brandless Goods]

Those two examples are exactly the kinds of things that are better learned from hearing it in context.

Also for the rocket thing: If you said 宇宙で飛んでる it would only make sense in very specific context. Therefore, that is something that you really can't learn from a book. You just have to see it to know the difference. Otherwise, usually someone would just say 宇宙を飛んでる。 If you wanted to say it flew to space from earth you'd want to see something like ロケットは宇宙に向かって飛んでいる。

I bet this stuff isn't anywhere in any Japanese books!

ps. I guess it still is pretty hard to actually find Japanese people to practice with. However trying to read a manga or play a game in Japanese would be really useful if the reader followed all the way through, even if it is slow at first. Also, places like sharedtalk.com or thejapanesepage.com would be good places to get answers to the many questions the will undoubtedly have to be answered through the process.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I made a mistake in my example. I put で instead of へ. The meaning of "ロケットは宇宙で飛んでいる" is more or less that the rocket is flying in circles in space. lol. 「ロケットは宇宙へ飛んでいる」 is what I should of wrote, which means "the rocket flew from Earth to space".

Also why say something 「ロケットは宇宙に向かって飛んでいる。」or 「ロケットは地球から宇宙へ飛んでいる。」when it is much easier to say 「ロケットは宇宙へ飛んでいる。」 and the meaning is the same?

You contradicted yourself by saying that "you can't learn from a book" then stating that you have to "see it to know the difference". A textbook would explain the difference between the two, so you would understand and see the difference. A good teacher then would make you practise the differences in other circumstances. This leads me to point out that I think we are talking about two different things. It seems you are speaking from a self-teaching methodology whereas I amcoming from a classroom scenario where you have some sort of textbook AND an instructor. There still tends to be the emphasis on reading and writing but there is conversational too (this year my sensei teaches primarily in Japanese whereas my first year my sensei taught in English). Also, a good instructor will make you practise.

There is a problem with learning from video games, anime and/or manga. It is that most of those media are dialogue-centric. Meaning much of the narrative is transcribed through what the characters say, whether you are listening to them saying it or reading it off a screen/book. Therefore, often the language you learn is colloquial, slang, etc...This sort of language is okay in Japanese to talk to your friends. Anyone else? No. It would be pretty hard to find situations where keigo is used, though they would come up only in rare or brief moments.

Example of degrees of politeness:

お待ちになって下さい
お待ちして下さい
待って下さい
待って
待て

They all say the same thing, to various degrees of politeness. The first two would fall under keigo, respectful and humble form respectively. 待って下さい　is generally considered polite speech. 待って is something you hear often in anime and is casual. 待て is the imperative form of the verb 待つ. The imperative is sometimes heard in anime but it is considered awfully rude and tends to be only used by police and such or in grammatical structures. Though you can also say 待てよ　which is a softer, less commanding version of 待て. Note, I will admit that the list given above is probably not exhaustive of the degrees of politeness within the Japanese language.

There is also various contractions that are more prevalent in speech that might not appear so often in writing. Such as shortening -ている to -てる or -てしまう to　-ちゃう. Thus if you are not aware of them, it can cause problems when reading something less casual and more formal.

I like to re-iterate that I think practising through means of exposure whether conversation or media is good but I believe that a concrete knowledge of the mechanics helps immensely as well. There is a difference between knowing that in certain situations you say "X" instead of "Y" and knowing why you say "X" instead of "Y". Both are useful, but only represent one side of the whole.

[Brandless Goods]

Why say に向かって　instead of へ？ It sounds better. "The rocket flew to space might be a boring sentence to someone trying to describe something important, like a rocket. You may want to say "the rocket flow toward the universe" or something, right? Yeah it's harder to say, but it sounds better. Also へ doesn't have to mean from "Earth". I could be from anywhere to space. It just indicated toward that direction. So in some context you very well may want to say 地球から宇宙へ飛んでた。

When I said you have to see it, I meant you have to see it being used in a real setting as opposed to reading it in a text book with a few examples with only small example of context.

There is no problem with learning Japanese from manga or games. That's the worst thing I've ever heard anyone say. There are vast amounts of manga with all kinds of different situations and plots and stories. There are thousands of different stories with different people who speak different ways and in different dialects. If you read Rurouni Kenshin you'd learn really old and unusal terms, which are pretty much useless but great to know. If you read Dragon Ball you'd learn hillbilly speech. You could read something like Gantz or Hajime no Ippo to learn what a highschool kid might sound like. Aside from actually hanging out with Japanese people, manga is one of the best ways to study.

I'm sure all of your degrees of politeness can be found althroughout a variety of different mangas or games. On top of that, things like しまう, おく、or ちゃんと, which may be difficult to understand are better learned through hearing or reading them in context rather than studying them from a textbook. If they don't make sense to you right off the bat, as I said, it'd be good to ask a Japanese person from the websites I showed. Sure, you could learn them as words from a text book. But you wouldn't get a feeling of how they are applied or what kind of neuance they give off in specific situations.

Also, concrete knowledge of mechanics? You mean grammar? Useage? Thats also the kind of thing you learn from experience. Yeah. Its good to learn how to read Japanese and learn the function of particles before you dive into a manga or a conversation in Japanese, but if you rely solely on a textbook anywhere after that you won't make any real progress.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I think we are getting off track. My original point was is that subtle differences can cause great change in meaning.

Again, I think you are forgetting the context I am speaking from. Learning from a textbook in a classroom with an instructor using a textbook is different from self-teaching with a textbook. I am talking about a classroom learning with an instructor who is fluent in the language if not a native speaker. BIG DIFFERENCE between just teaching yourself with a textbook, which I had stated above should be complimented by exposure to the language.

To make my point about manga, I will give an example of my friend who is currently in Japanese class. For the purpose of this example, we will call her Jade (not her real name but true story). Now Jade read a lot of manga in Japanese, she was fortunate enough to have went to Japan and bought some in Japanese. Now the thing is Jade, when coming to university, wanted to take Japanese class. The thing is during her first year, she knew a lot of kanji but not a lot of grammar so she had to take a special class her first semester with the first level sensei to fill in the gap. Evidentially, manga doesn't give you everything. Yes, there is a wide variety of manga you can get set in different times but it does not change my point that all you are learning is dialogue--for the most part. I mean you can go import Murakami Haruhi but considering the learning curve you would have to be a masochist not to be disheartened.

I also have someone who knows how to speak Japanese but could not write it well. Though this point was not clear, I was hinting at the fact that writing and speaking are two different activities that overlap but an ability in one does not presuppose an ability in another.

There is a distinct difference between understanding the grammar and merely knowing the grammar, which is was my point. Take English. Most native English speakers could not tell you what an object of a verb is, let alone whether or not it is indirect or direct. Before I go further, I will draw a distinction. Language acquisition for a child is different than that for an adult. A child's mind is much more receptive and sponge like and will absorb the language and grammar without any conscious awareness of it. It is the same principle by which I acquired French. I was exposed to it since the age of 5. A larger portion of a education was in French, and I received little formal teaching in the language (which is why my writing skills in French tend to suffer), however I can perfectly understand someone speaking French and read with ease. Same thing for any native English-speaker. We can all talk with relative ease as well as read, but many people have not mastered the written language.

Returning to my comment of an object of a verb. Object is merely one syntactical term to referring to the noun or phrase to which is the agent of the verb or recipient of the verb. A similar example of syntax is the difference between nominative and predicate positions of adjectives. By reading "He has blue eyes" and "His eyes are blue" you can see the difference between the two and if you think about it for a second, you can get the nuance. But most people, who have not studied another language, syntax/linguistic nor have a formal education in English grammar, would not be able to explain that the difference is that in the first sentence the subject is "He" and the adjective is in the nominative position. The second sentence's subject can be reduce to "his eyes" and the adjective is in the predicate position. I could rake my brain for more examples but I think I have been clear. To simply understand grammar is quite a different thing from knowing the grammar. I think it is important to note, that I only came to understand grammar and syntax(for the most part) in such a manner once I started studying Ancient/Attic Greek (that lasted a year and sorta lost in the recess of my mind) and now Japanese.


Its good to learn how to read Japanese and learn the function of particles before you dive into a manga or a conversation in Japanese, but if you rely solely on a textbook anywhere after that you won't make any real progress.

Either scroll up to an earlier post or to the beginning of this post. To remind you, I never said that it is good to learn from a textbook alone. However, I never stated that it is good to learn by exposure alone either. Again, my references have been to classrooms where both textbooks and exposure is offered (especially at higher levels and with good sensei).

Not to sound like a broken record, but not once have I stated that you should learn by textbook only or that you cannot learn by exposure/immersion. I expressed that both have their limitations and that they should be used together, in concert, to fully appreciate the language. Moreover, a classroom setting, assuming it is a good one, incorporates both of these factors into it. It offers the knowledge as well as the practise and examples in various contexts to support the knowledge.

[Brandless Goods]

1. Yeah but we disagreed on what to and not to learn from a textbook.

2. Only learning dialogue? That's learning how to speak! They come with pictures and everything so you have the whole idea about what's going on. The only thing you won't get from manga is practice trying to actually speak the language (which I guess is the most important part). If Jade read it without understanding the grammar then she wasted her time trying to read it at all. She should be able to ask about or look up things she doesn't know yet. It takes a long time to get through it, especially when you start off with a relatively low vocabulary and understanding of grammar. But if you get all the important questions answered, it picks up fast and then vocab starts to stick like glue.

3. That whole thing about knowing vs understanding grammar seems kind of irrelevant to me.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

1. Actually, no that is not what I am saying. I am saying that you need both, textbook and practise, to have a robust understanding of the language. Either taken independently is one part of the whole, not the whole itself.

2. Again, speaking is significantly different from writing. Oral proficiency does not equate with written proficiency. Learning dialogue is not the same as learning prose. Moreover, it is easier to recognize a kanji than reproduce it.

From as far as I can tell, she did have some grammatical knowledge and vocab however it was basic though enough that it was more than use newcomers, only during her second semester did she join the rest of the class (Japanese is two semesters long for us).

Also, if you are looking up grammar, besides getting it explained to you from a speaker, it means you are looking at reference material which presences the knowledge in much the same way a textbook does. However, just because you can recognize that "-て下さい" means "Please do *verb*", does not mean you could necessarily be able to replicate that conjugation pattern with all verbs. Though a good textbook or reference material will show you how.

3. It is quiet relevant if you ever get into a classroom setting, especially considering the methodologies used to teach language to adults. The approach is different than that to children.

Also, knowing the difference between an intransitive and transitive verb can make your life easier in most languages (another example of understanding grammar than merely knowing/recognizing it). In Japanese it means knowing which particles to use. In languages that decline their nouns such as Ancient Greek does, it means knowing which declension for the object. By knowing the syntax and how it functions, it gives you the ability to play with the language.

[Brandless Goods]

As far as I'm concerned this conversation is going absolutely nowhere.

[フランズ]

今日は！みなさん
日本語を勉強してるから嬉しいですが
このケンカ意味がなくて馬鹿馬鹿しいですよ。子供の時あんたたちの頭うったですか？話す事は大切な事ですよ！書けないと言っても喋られないわけではないよ。教科書要らないと思います。日本語を話せるだけだったら大 丈夫ですよ。

[Momiji]

Well said...if I read it right. >_>

[Brandless Goods]

あ　野生のフランズさんがあらわれた。

ところで、俺は母さんに、俺はマジで落とされたって言われた。
だから、俺の言うことはときどきおかしいかもしれない。だからといって、俺をいじめるな。
でも、俺はこいつが本物かどうか知るためだけにこの無意味なケンカを始めた。

それはそうと、俺らは勉強したほうがいいんじゃないか？　もし誰か質問があるなら、俺たちに聞ける。その時まで、俺たちは会話ができる。

[フランズ]

brandless goodsさん、最初の文は超変でした。何と言いたいのですか？誰が日本語をおしえてあげたの？

[Brandless Goods]

ちがうよ。

俺の最初の文はgame boy版のポケモンで出て来る言葉。バトルの初めに「やせいのなになにがあらわれた」はいつも書いてある。あと、フランズはポケモンのようにここにあらわれたから俺は言った。フランズさんはポケモンのゲームをやっ たほうがいいと思う。

てゆか、「誰が日本語をおしえて あげたの？」は「誰が日本語をおしえてくれた の？」になるはずだ！。そして誰にも教わってない！俺の日本語は完璧だべ！もう・・・　:mad:

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Actually he was using the right one.

-てくれる implies that the speaker is the one who is given the favour of (verb).

If フランズ used 教えてくれた then he'd be asking who taught him Japanese not who taught you (Brandless Goods) Japanese.

[フランズ]

違う、その文を話てなかったよ、この文は変だと思います。「俺は母さんに、俺はマジで落とされたって言われた」
それの方がいいですよ。「子供のころ、お母さんに落とされたってきた。」

そして「誰にも教わってない」と言う意味はnot taught to anybody, i think you should say 「誰にも教えてない」
brandless goods, i think you very good japanese speaker i can understand what you trying to say.

それは面白い冗談　笑　「野生のフランズ」か

[Brandless Goods]

「誰が日本語をおしえて あげたの」 あげる is always means whatever is being given is coming from the speaker. He has to say くれる to say "who told you Japanese」 Come on. You think I don't know what I'm talking about here?

「そして誰にも教わってない」 means I wasn't taught from anybody.
「誰にも教えてない」 means I didn't tell anybody. So I didn't make a mistake. I said exactly what I meant to.

「ところで、俺は母さんに、俺はマジで落とされたって言われた」 means speaking of that, I was told by my mom that I really was dropped when I was a child.
「子供のころ、お母さんに落とされたってきた」 means when I was a kid I came and was dropped by my Mom. Doesn't exactly make sense.

Nice try anyway, guys.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Lol, I looked up in my old textbook. Both あげる and くれる are valid. There is only a difference is that if フランズ used くれる it would have implied an identification with Brandless Goods. By using あげる it implied a neutrality or an identification with the giver.

[フランズ]

間違えた。
「誰も教えてない」
「子供のころ、お母さんに落とされたって聞いた」
ギャハハハハ！！！
二人とも間違った！違う方法で同じこと言ってた。

[Clouded Sky]

I'm going to jump in with Levian here and say that a basis with a good textbook and classroom education is a HUGE advantage. That's not to say you can't learn a language by diving in - as a matter of fact, that really helps too. (Of course, I'm talking about living in Japan here, none of this "I'm learning from manga" crap - that's what I think that is, crap) When I read something with 俺は in every sentence, it hurts me. A) It doesn't need to be repeated, and B) In the absence of "pleasant company" it reads to me as more rude than anything.

I'm saying this because I live in Japan right now and my speaking has improved by leaps and bounds. So has my writing, but that's because I'm still taking classes, with teachers and textbooks. Without that I still wouldn't understand the backgrounds on a good half of the things I am able to say. And I still suck at Japanese.

[Brandless Goods]

I'm going to jump in with Levian here and say that a basis with a good textbook and classroom education is a HUGE advantage. That's not to say you can't learn a language by diving in - as a matter of fact, that really helps too. (Of course, I'm talking about living in Japan here, none of this "I'm learning from manga" crap - that's what I think that is, crap) When I read something with 俺は in every sentence, it hurts me. A) It doesn't need to be repeated, and B) In the absence of "pleasant company" it reads to me as more rude than anything.

I'm saying this because I live in Japan right now and my speaking has improved by leaps and bounds. So has my writing, but that's because I'm still taking classes, with teachers and textbooks. Without that I still wouldn't understand the backgrounds on a good half of the things I am able to say. And I still suck at Japanese.

Absolutely everything I know I've learned from two places. Japanese people, and Japanese games. Sure, I'm not totally fluent in Japanese, but I've got enough down now to communicate and to understand whats going on in conversations with J people I happen to meet. I've never even been to Japan before. People who rely on book work and teachers and don't actively go out and try to acquire the language don't get far. I've seen so many kids struggling with Japanese class because it was too complicated because they didn't know better than to read little descriptions and try to answer dumb questions.

1. 俺 is not bad when you're posting on an internet forum. Everyone says that :skull::skull::skull::skull: in japan.

2. Quit saying manga is crap. It's an awesome learning source.

3Lets continue this argument in Japanese so that
a. we can practice
b.if you're better than me then I'll shut up and you're right.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Beginner's classes are based a lot on repetitive exercises that are meant to establish the basics but there is a lot more than that. Especially in upper level classes. Like I said, I am taught in 90% Japanese. Sensei, only uses English for stuff we don't know or to clarify and even then she will try and get us used to Japanese. Moreover, we do projects and assignments that forces us to put our skills beyond simple exercises. Heck, right now we are in groups working on skits. Also, given that it is a university setting, they are always clubs and stuff to join for language exchange or even asking the sensei about students who want to do it. So there is a lot within and without the class you can do.

And about 俺. 1. Not everyone uses it; it is a male pronoun. 2. It is very casual. In other words, it is only proper to use it in very specific context. As much as you can say that it is the internet, there will be a diverse group of people here, some that will be your superiors in different regards. So yeah, you can use 俺 but some like Clouded Sky might take offence while others could take it as a sign of arrogance or being rude. Personally, it doesn't bother me but I tend to use 僕 because 俺 feels too rough for me. Tip if you ever go to Japan, use　僕 or 私, both are considered to be polite.

And I used English because I need to shower soon and head off to class so a lot easier to convey this amount of information fast.

BTW saying "if you're better than me then I'll shut up and you're right" is not very conducive of an open dialogue of learning and discussion.

[Brandless Goods]

Forum = casual environment. I don't care who the hell you guys are on the other side. If we're on a final fantasy forum 俺 is fine to use. It's not too rough. It's just casual. Yeah, its a male word. I didn't mean literally "everyone". When I say everyone loves final fantasy I don't literally mean "everyone". You should /know/ who I'm talking about. On top of that, you're learning in a classroom environment. Of course you're not used to hearing that word. Japanese people don't learn slang in classes either. You learn that stuff from talking to real people. P.S. If I go to Japan and say 僕 people will think I'm a wimp. At least I'll sound tough if I say 俺. Yeah yeah yeah, I /know/ you can't just say it when and where the hell ever you want to say it. I've had plenty of formal experiences too. You just gotta know when and where is the right time to say it and don't be scared.

Since when has this been an "open dialogue of learning and discussion"? I don't consider this petty argument to be a constructive discussion in the least. If Clouded is better than me and he says classes are better then he's proved his point by being better and he wins the argument. No b u l l s h it. Are you really so shallow that you'd go as far as calling this a "dialogue of learning and discussion"?

Besides, it doesn't seem to me like he really knows what he's talking about.

And when I said lets continue this is Japanese, I was talking to Clouded. You really think you're up for that?

[Clouded Sky]

じゃ、最初から、私はまだあまり上手じゃないと思うから、ごめんね。Ｂｒａｎｄｌｅｓｓ　ｇｏｏｄｓは「俺よりＣＳのほうが上手だったら、私の考え方はちょっと違う」と言っ炊けどいろいろな理由でそれは違うと思う 。例えば、違う教科書のこととか違う話すの経験とかどのくらい日本語を勉強して板のことなどがあるね。初めから今までに年間半になってきた。もう、はじめから私はすごく下手で頑張っていた。多分私の前のポストはち ょっと強過ぎたんだ。。。漫画で勉強できると思うけどそれは一番いい勉強し方じゃない。。。Ｂｒａｎｄｌｅｓｓ　ｇｏｏｄｓとＬｅｖｉａｎは両方ちょっと正しと思う。経験で勉強のはすごく便利だけど、それだけでは 大変ね。もし、教科書があれば、それで知らないところが調べられる。もちろん、日本人も聞いてもいいし、辞書を使ってもいいし。。。でも、教科書は日本を勉強のために出されたから、調べたほうがいいんじゃない？日 本人は「使い方はこれ。。。」と言えるけど、私があった日本人は教師じゃない。。。（今私は東京に住んでいるんだ。。。）にほんごの教師が「使い方はこれ。。。」と「使い方の理由は。。。」がいえるからそれを使っ た方がいいんじゃない？もちろん、Ｂｒａｎｄｌｅｓｓ　ｇｏｏｄｓの話し方はいいから、「経験だけでは悪い。。。」が言われられないね。日本へ着たから、私のにほんごレベルがふえてきたとおもう。でも、私の生活の 経験の以外に日本語のじゅぎょうを取っている。そこで私の書くことと読むことが上手になってきた。今は春休みから、私の書き方が下がってきたかもしれない。

間違いが多いかもしれない、ごめん。一日中保育園で働いていたんだ。すごく疲れている。

あああ。。。

最後に、その「俺」のこと。。。実は、俺があまり使われてないと思う。。。友達$と一緒に飲みに行くだけのは私の友達から「俺」を聞こえる時だ。だから、聞くと、そごく無礼な感じが思い出す。本当に、私の友達はい つも「私」と「僕」を使っている。この人たちは大学生なんだ。。。

ＥＤＩＴ：練習ありがとうございます！＾＿＾

ＥＤＩＴ2： I also just realized I essentially repeated what I said in English in Japanese. Whoops! As you can see, I've still got a ways to go. I would like to apologize in English though because it's easier to say this: I may have jumped at you at first because I have a huge aversion to "learning Japanese FOR manga" which is different than "learning Japanese THROUGH manga." Some people might consider the first a valid pursuit, and at the risk of being a complete jerk to some people here and some of my friends, I wholeheartedly disagree. I just get really upset at the idea that all Japan is is anime and manga. Sure, you can learn Japanese partially through anime and/or manga, but FOR GODS' SAKES, don't learn it simply for the manga. Please, please take time to appreciate other aspects! Please learn that the historical capital is Kyoto, not Tokyo! Go ahead, watch some Bleach, read some One Piece, but please don't do it solely for that. I'm not point figures, and especially not at you Brandless Goods because it sounds like you've got a good grounding. It just upsets me when people compound Japan down to that.

Sorry to get so self-righteous - just thought I'd let you know why my first post came off as so aggressive. Yes, I'm a Japanese major, currently writing my thesis on the Japanese health care system, (AND THE SAD THING IS, I'll probably end up knowing more about that than this, at times, infuriating-to-learn language!!!) that doesn't mean everyone has to do that, just, augh... maybe the internet just makes me crazy.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Like I said, I really don't care if you say 俺, 僕, 私, or even あたし :P Heck, say 俺さま if you want. Though I'd probably giggle at that point. I always found something funny about 俺さま. Heck, if I want to emphasize my own sexuality, I could use あたし, which I'd never do unless being sarcastic.

Actually, I have always been constructive during the whole thing. For some reason, you are taking a quite offensive stance against what I am saying. I have not at any point in this whole thread personally attacked you, yet you act as if I had. If you had carefully read what I had typed, you would have realized that at some points we were actually agreeing. I do think that learning completely out of a text book is not the best way. But I think just reading manga, anime, or playing video games equally flawed for different reasons. That either on their own are lacking. I believe a mixture of both is good: structured learning and experience. A classroom is only one way in which the two can meet but hardly the only way. I will not say that a classroom setting is without flaws; there are plenty of flaws I could point out. However, there is no perfect way to learn a language as you get older. Ideally, we should all learn languages at like the age of 5 or younger. Our brains are super receptive to languages then. But for those exact reasons, as adults we do not acquire languages the same way a child does.

As long as you continue with your current attitude, I could hardly say that you are being constructive. You behave competitively as if this is some sort of competition to prove who can type the best in Japanese. Hardly a constructive environment. Sometimes people might think you made a mistake, they might actually be right or they might misinterpret your meaning, but there is hardly a need to act like we are attacking you, which is exactly how you have behaved. None of us are perfect, we all make mistakes even in our own mother tongue.

Agree with Clouded insofar as the romantic idea that often many people have of Japan. Some people have this weird super-amazing-awesome picture of Japan. It can be kinda scary when you think about it.

Oh, and to respond to your little baiting Brandless, I can type in Japanese if I wanted to. I will admit that I will make mistakes but that has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make and everything to do with the fact that I am a bad student (don't review and practise as much as I should) that has 4 other classes which consists of intensive readings to deal with as well. Also, English is much more expedient at expressing the ideas that I had wanted to express given that I don't always have the luxury of time to be able to put my thoughts into Japanese.

[フランズ]

I understand where brandless goods is coming from. I went to 2 semesters of japanese at my community college. By the time I had finished 2 I was better than a lot of the people who had taken all four. That's when I realized how much of a waste of time going to class was for me. I think that knowing basic grammar structure is something that you have to have before you can really talk to anybody, or read anything. THAT"S why class is important, but after I found tae kim's guide to japanese, I was able to progress and learn everything that was taught in 2 WHOLE YEARS, in only 1 MONTH. Adding time to learn hiragana and katakana and getting used to japanese, it took me maybe 2 months.

Maybe you guys have different classes, but seriously, why would I PAY to spend an extra 1.75 years to learn basic grammar?

And yes I agree that there is a lot of good information in the classes to learn, but I think that that stuff can be learned a lot faster, and in a more fun way if you are reading manga or playing games.

[Clouded Sky]

I guess it can vary on class than - we had a test that we were expected to pass the first week on hiragana. Katakana the second.

Granted, this is not a community college.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

Yeah, we were taught Hiragana and Katakana the first week and a half, albeit I missed most of that stuff because I had to go back home for personal reasons, it was the easiest part.

I noticed a big difference between my first and second year. Besides different sensei thus teaching styles, the first year was really to hammer down the basics since we are expected to understand sensei as she instructs in Japanese. So I did find that sometimes it was a bit slow or repetitive during my first year but in part it was due so that we had a solid foundation for the coming years.

[Brandless Goods]

よくがんばって書いたね、ｃｓ

理解できたからいいや

じゃ、それに答えて、オレまったく反対だ。おれにとって、授業は絶対にいらない。教科書はたまに役に立つから、ときどき読んだほうがいいけどそれだけでは十分じゃない。教科書と俺たちの経験は違うのはあたりまえ！ それは関係ない！日本語の教科書を読めば読むほど学べるんじゃない？あと一番ぺらぺら人の学び方は一番いい学び方のはずじゃないの？彼らはたくさんの事を経験してるから知ってるはずじゃない？だからＣＳは少しの経 験しかないからＣＳの言ってることは信憑性がない.　経験がないのに一番いい学び方わかるはずがない。みたいなぁ～

ま、授業取っても悪くないと思うけどね。オレも前に三つの違う大学で日本語のクラスを取ったけど全部にがっかりした。あと、ＣＳは東京に住んでるから授業の有無にかかわらず一年間ぐらいでうまくなれる。すぐにＣＳ はオレよりうまくなるかもね！

てゆか、きっとみなは「おれ」を使うもん！ＣＳは聞いたことないとかありえないし！ｃｓは男だよね？本当にだれも言わないの？

Summoner of Leviathanへ、
おれは張り合ってなんかない！Leviathanのように何も習わずに"i learned about particles today!"や"taking class is important to learn!"って言う人はいっぱいいるけど、クラスに頼ってる人はあまり上達しないと思う。そういう人ばっかり見てきた。自分で"I realize I'm being argumentative and opinionated"と言ったじゃん！

[rubah]

I'm afraid I'm going to have to invoke the "please don't post only in other languages without a translations" clause since you guys have gotten kinda heated and I'm too lazy to use google languages xD

(you all can keep practicing your nihongo, just post a summary for the rest of us)

[crono_logical]

Yeah, you should all post translations as well :p Especially since I quite like having japanese and english side by side, makes it easier to match words I don't know together and learn them :D Shame I don't actually come across that often, the closest normally being english subs to japanese audio in anime which isn't quite the same since you can't learn the kanji as well (and they often don't match anyway - lazy translators) :p

[フランズ]

静かさ。。。

[Brandless Goods]

Well I don't feel like translating everything word for word but

cs basically said I can't say if he's better he wins the argument just like that because there are factors like different text books and different amount of experience between us that make it unfair.

I said the one who's best wins by default because the argument is about who's study method works better and since the best guy is better than everyone they have no way to contradict him, regardless of experience or what kind of book you use to study.

And then I said everyone absolutely does use the word ore and its really weird that he hasn't heard it.

Anyway, shall we talk about Japanese grammar? 8D

[Clouded Sky]

Hey, just a follow up here.

First, I suppose I was a bit off base. I was in an environment surrounded by 5 year olds and 85 year olds, not the best for figuring out regular usage. That's not to say it's common, but perhaps more common than I made it out to be.

Back in Tokyo now, a little more reality.

Ore is used, but is limited to groups of friends. Especially when you're hanging out with your guy friends. I've heard it a fair amount recently after paying attention. So I thought maybe I could use it myself among friends. Well, then while having lunch with two of my female friends I used it and they looked at me, "WHAT?" They told me something along the lines of that was too coarse and that it would be best for me to use boku. Which also gets thrown around amongst groups of friends. And is a much safer bet in general. Keep the ores for when you're hanging out with "the guys". At least, I think that's what I've learned. In fact, I think I'm just confused.