Viking Metal

[Garland]

Viking Metal: I just discovered it today. I think it's pretty cool. For those who are like me and haven't heard of it, what it is, is Scandinavian folk music and viking legends put into anthemic metal. I downloaded three albums by this band called Einherjer today off iTunes. I'm pretty happy. Anyone listen to this genre of music? I'm scouring the net for other good names in the genre, but Einherjer will keep me busy for a while.

[DK]

Enslaved are probably my favourite Viking Metal band, they are awesome. Well they were, last couple of albums have been a bit shiet. But the older stuff is glorious.

[Montoya]

If Finntroll is considered Viking Metal than them. :p

[Garland]

I just lost my mind. What I did was wiki viking metal. Got a list of bands. Then I went to itunes, and I bought 30 albums. I found a band, bought all their albums, moved on to the next. I just spent a paycheck on music. Enslaved - I got everything itunes had. Thyrfing, Falkenbach, vintersorg, equilibrium. That covers it. I'm a little irritated that two albums were higher priced exact duplicates - presumably that itunes plus crap. So I wasted 15-20 dollars or so. But still, my iPhone is nothing to be embarrassed about. Used to only have a handful of artists on it. Now it's got over 400 songs.


EDIT:
Finntroll is supposedly Viking music. A review for Einherjer was remorseful that Finntroll wasnt for sale.

EDIT:
iTunes just finished tabulating the receipts and it all came to 263. I was fearing worse. Good deal. I'm glad they weren't all 9.99.

[Montoya]

One of my best friends has recently started listening to Enslaved. I'm going to ask him if he can let me borrow a CD.

[o_O]

IMO the best viking metal band is Turisas:

<img src="http://www.hardrockhouse.com/Interviews/Turisas3.jpg" title="lol" />

[The Man]

I've been listening to Viking metal for about five years. Enslaved and Bathory are probably the two most important early artists in the genre, but there are several other artists who are also pretty much essential, such as Týr, Windir, Falkenbach, and Vintersorg. A number of other artists play in a very similar style but aren't classed as Viking metal due to country of origin/lyrical content, such as Moonsorrow, Arkona (Rus), Wyrd, and Cruachan.

I have a ton of music in this style on my computer; if you want to sample any of it, just let me know.

[Garland]

If my reading is correct - you can't give wikipedia 100% credence - Bathory was the very first. Rammstein was my only interest in metal music, period, until today. I'm trying to broaden my music horizons. If you had played any sort of metal in the past, I'd have thought "Wtf is this screaming crap?" but it's pretty great now.

[Namelessfengir]

i have never heard of viking metal before... ill have to get some of these this week

[The Man]

If my reading is correct - you can't give wikipedia 100% credence - Bathory was the very first. Rammstein was my only interest in metal music, period, until today. I'm trying to broaden my music horizons. If you had played any sort of metal in the past, I'd have thought "Wtf is this screaming crap?" but it's pretty great now.

That's quite correct, and alongside Skyclad they pretty much invented folk metal. Though it's worth noting that Manowar seems to have been a fairly large influence on both, but I wouldn't class Manowar as anything but power metal.

The harsh vocals are definitely an acquired taste, but for my money they're one worth acquiring. If you want exposure to more kinds of metal, let me know; I've got a fairly huge library. I especially like the more experimental and avant-garde ends of the genre.

[Garland]

What I've really been trying to get into, is finding actual "artists". Everyone who puts out a CD these days gets the title, but most are just formula regurgitating cash cows. I think any music can be good if the musician really cares. Because my degree was in medieval history, and it was a degree that I picked out of interest, and not (unfortunately) for the money (seriously, no jobs in THIS major), any metal rocker who likes his swords, shields and medieval battles is a 10 in my estimation. Exciting music that gives me goosebumps of heroism, and the potential to learn a little in the process about Scandinavian mythology? Seems like pure win.

[The Man]

I tend to agree; part of my interest in metal stems from the fact that bands seem to be more willing to branch out and experiment due to the music's 'underground' status. (Though there are some people in black metal subculture who deplore anything that doesn't sound like Darkthrone's Transilvanian Hunger, but smurf them). I definitely agree with finding the lyrics intriguing when I can understand them; that said, a lot of bands I listen to don't even sing in English (Moonsorrow, Arkona, early Enslaved, and so on).

as long as we're talking about metal bands who use mythology and history as bases for lyrics I'll have to mention Nile, who include essay-length pieces about the historical basis behind their songs in their liner notes, and Satyricon, who aren't technically Viking metal but incorporate a lot of historical basis into their lyrics, especially in the early stuff (note that the sound quality isn't that great though). And then there's Pan.Thy.Monium, who just invent their own mythology entirely.

[Montoya]

I can recommend some Immortal then. Not the tru kvlt, but still great in my opinion.

[Captain Maxx Power]

Metal is awesome. So are Vikings. I fail to see how this can possibly fail.

[Garland]

So far, Einherjer is my favorite artist, followed by a couple of songs by Falkenbach and Enslaved. I aim to buy a few more artists when I get paid again - Turisas, Bathory to name a couple.

Venomtongue by Einherjer is my new favorite song.

[Markus. D]

Epic Folk Rock <3


Otyg... is all you need.

Otyg!

YouTube - Otyg Trollslottet (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=b7lYHLMeHLc&feature=related)

[Disenchanted_Cynic]

Ah, good. Nice to see that you have discovered Viking Metal.

I just wanted to point out that:

A. Finntroll are not Viking Metal, but rather Folk Metal. There is a difference. Folk Metal incorporates a lot more folk melodies and typically incorporates more folk instrumentation in general, while Viking Metal holds closer to its Black Metal roots.

B. Rammstein are Industrial, not Metal. I apologize, but I am severely anal about classification, whenever such things arise within the topic. It is not that I wish to classify every band, but rather that I wish for classification to be done correctly.

C. Immortal and Satyricon are Black Metal. (OR were. Immortal's last record incorporated a lot of thrash/heavy metal tendencies into the Black Metal style they are so well known for. Satyricon went more black n' roll in the middle of their career.)

I am extremely involved with the Metal genre as a whole. In fact, it is very much a lifestyle for me. Please do not be offended, if I have corrected you, or if I have come off as arrogant within the span of my post. I am very passionate about Metal and its various sub-genres and I live for it, as I am a Metal musician myself. Thank you.

For good Viking Metal, I would recommend Moonsorrow and early Vintersorg.

[The Man]

Yeah I explicitly said Satyricon aren't really Viking, though there is a fair amount of overlap between black and Viking metal since the latter evolved out of the former. There's a fair amount of overlap between folk and Viking metal as well, and it's worth noting that Moonsorrow have explicitly objected to being called a Viking metal band (due to the majority of their lyrics being unrelated to Vikings, though apparently they don't like the label 'folk metal' all that much either; the term they use to describe themselves is "epic heathen metal").

out of curiosity, Garland, which Falkenbach and Enslaved tracks were your favourites?

[Disenchanted_Cynic]

Moonsorrow objecting to being labeled Viking Metal does not constitute them not being so. That is like saying if Slayer says their Reign in Blood record is not Thrash Metal, then it is not, and we both know that to be fallacious in every sense of the word.

Yes, there are some overlaps between Black Metal/Viking Metal and Viking Metal/Folk Metal, but they are not the same genres and are very easy to tell apart. They draw influence from one another, but are not inherently the same.

[The Man]

Claiming that they're "very easy to tell apart" strikes me as pretty ridiculous considering how many metal bands' categorisations are frequently disputed. Certainly for a newcomer to the genre they'd be rather difficult to tell apart, and even people who have been listening to metal for years frequently dispute the categorisations of bands, as demonstrated by this argument,

Most of Moonsorrow's lyrics really do have nothing to do with Vikings, which I would consider a major factor preventing them from being legitimately categorised as Viking metal. Simply including aspects of Norse mythology in their lyrics and playing a sound similar to that of several well-known Viking metal bands doesn't make them Viking metal; otherwise, bands like Wintersun or Nokturnal Mortum, to name two disparate examples, could be considered Viking metal as well. Besides, there really isn't all that much stylistically linking a lot of bands who generally get classified as Viking metal; for example, Amon Amarth are generally considered to be a Viking metal band, but if you took out the lyrics they'd be a pretty typical melodic death band. Viking metal is as much an ideological categorisation of music as it is a stylistic one, just as pagan metal is.

[Garland]

When any two people on the internet can agree on who fits what microcategory, then I'll bother honoring them. As far as I'm concerned, viking metal is metal about viking culture, and I don't aim to let it get more complicated than that.

I've finally finished listening to pretty much all of the albums, and I have to say I'm glad I saved Equilibrium for last. Sagas is insane, and Blut Im Auge has been on repeat for the last two days. Wingthors Hammer from Turis Fratyr is also amazing.

Equilibrium - Sagas - Blut Im Auge
Falkenbach - Magni Blandinn... - When The Ghallarhorn...
Einherjer - Blot - Venomtongue
Thyrfing - Valdr Galga - Valdr Galga (Phantom of the Opera?)
Enslaved - Enslaved - Midgards Eldar
Vintersorg - Hedniskhjartad - Norrland

So yeah, I think those are my favorite songs from each band. Equilibrium is a distant number 1. Einherjer is a solid number 2 nonetheless. Enslaved, Falkenbach and Thyrfing have one or two catchy songs each, and Vintersorg is good, but nothing yet stands out as song repeat material. What qualifies as good imo is a catchy sea shanty style melody with heroic overtones. Equilibrium does almost nothing but. There you have it - the Garland State of the Iphone address as of whatever today is.

[Disenchanted_Cynic]

Claiming that they're "very easy to tell apart" strikes me as pretty ridiculous considering how many metal bands' categorisations are frequently disputed. Certainly for a newcomer to the genre they'd be rather difficult to tell apart, and even people who have been listening to metal for years frequently dispute the categorisations of bands, as demonstrated by this argument,

Most of Moonsorrow's lyrics really do have nothing to do with Vikings, which I would consider a major factor preventing them from being legitimately categorised as Viking metal. Simply including aspects of Norse mythology in their lyrics and playing a sound similar to that of several well-known Viking metal bands doesn't make them Viking metal; otherwise, bands like Wintersun or Nokturnal Mortum, to name two disparate examples, could be considered Viking metal as well. Besides, there really isn't all that much stylistically linking a lot of bands who generally get classified as Viking metal; for example, Amon Amarth are generally considered to be a Viking metal band, but if you took out the lyrics they'd be a pretty typical melodic death band. Viking metal is as much an ideological categorisation of music as it is a stylistic one, just as pagan metal is.


It is not ridiculous, in fact. Nine out of ten people I have met, who actually know their material, can easily differentiate between the genres. Lyrics are not what determines a bands genre, ultimately. It is the sound, and execution of that sound which defines a bands genre. Lyrical themes play a much smaller role. For instance, Unleashed have lyrics which have much to do with Vikings, but they are not a Viking Metal band. They are an old school Swedish Death Metal band. Moonsorrow are Viking Metal, because of their sound. As much as they would like to distance themselves from the label, it matters not. They play music which is stylistically defined as Viking Metal. And if you really want to get into it, much of Viking beliefs have to do with Pagan and/or Heathen beliefs. While certainly, Norse mythology and such things are prominent, the two can exist within one realm. Wintersun sound nothing like Viking Metal. In fact, they have much more to do with Melodic Death Metal. This is also where Folk Metal would come into play. They have more influences from Folk Metal than Viking Metal, simply because Jari was in Ensiferum, a premiere Folk Metal band (Not viking) I simply cannot understand where you would draw such a conclusion. But alas, you seem to believe that Amon Amarth are typically considered Viking Metal, which they are not. They are not considered Viking Metal by anyone who knows anything but the genre as a whole. They are labeled that by the mainstream audience because they do not know any better. They see Viking imagery and lyrics and automatically associate them with Viking Metal, which again, they are not. They are a Melodic Death Metal band, and it is as simple as that. Music is very much defined by the sound, and much less by lyrics. Lyrics are a much more superficial trait than sound, and that is another thing many metalheads will tell you. For instance, Slayer's lyrics have a lot in common with early Death Metal bands, but Slayer are and never were Death Metal, despite the fact that their sound influenced it in many ways. They are (or rather were) an LA Thrash Metal band. Lyrics do not define a band's genre. They take a backseat to music. Nokturnal Mortum really cannot be categorized as Viking Metal, even by their sound. They are primarily a Black Metal band with some symphonic and folk overtones. Not the same concept at all. Confusion often stems from the uneducated, forever sending labels and such into a spiral of even more confusion, simply because one person began to pass on false information and it is a chain reaction from there. That is how these confusions about labels start.

Hats off to you, for discussing this with me. I disagree with you entirely, but I appreciate you not becoming angry with me. Again, I do not wish to come off as arrogant, but this is a subject which I am very educated on. It is always interesting to have discussions such as these. Do not take anything I have said as personal. :up:

[Garland]

So, if I understand right, if you replaced the lyrics of say, the Sagas album to say, all about Barbie and My Little Pony, but you kept the instruments the same, it'd still be Viking Metal? I believe you, of course. I don't think you're wrong. I think if you're right, then the means of classification is wrong, to an extent. I don't think lyrics are everything, but I do think they should count for more than they apparently do. When a song can be viking metal and have nothing to do with anything viking, or even scandinavian, there is something fundamentally wrong. The whole genre was invented, so to speak, out of pride of heritage. I think the heritage is as much a part of the genre as the use of bombastic keyboard fanfares. That's just my opinion, though.

EDIT: Amon Amarth do seem to be typically labelled Viking Metal, btw. They're listed as Viking Metal in the wikipedia list of Viking Metal bands, on the "others also bought" list on itunes when buying undeniable viking music, and when I was initially reading the web on this genre, I came upon a heated debate on whether Amon Amarth was Viking Metal, or Black Metal singing about vikings. That was one of the sources of my disillusionment with the idea of so many categories to begin with. I think they should be broader. If a person says: "I like Equilibrium. Can you recommend more viking metal?" and strict category adherence were followed, potential bands that the person probably would like would get passed up, most likely. Finntroll might not be viking metal to some, and the status of Amon Amarth varies with who you ask, but they're close enough to the general concept a person is looking for when they look for viking metal.

[Disenchanted_Cynic]

So, if I understand right, if you replaced the lyrics of say, the Sagas album to say, all about Barbie and My Little Pony, but you kept the instruments the same, it'd still be Viking Metal? I believe you, of course. I don't think you're wrong. I think if you're right, then the means of classification is wrong, to an extent. I don't think lyrics are everything, but I do think they should count for more than they apparently do. When a song can be viking metal and have nothing to do with anything viking, or even scandinavian, there is something fundamentally wrong. The whole genre was invented, so to speak, out of pride of heritage. I think the heritage is as much a part of the genre as the use of bombastic keyboard fanfares. That's just my opinion, though.

EDIT: Amon Amarth do seem to be typically labelled Viking Metal, btw. They're listed as Viking Metal in the wikipedia list of Viking Metal bands, on the "others also bought" list on itunes when buying undeniable viking music, and when I was initially reading the web on this genre, I came upon a heated debate on whether Amon Amarth was Viking Metal, or Black Metal singing about vikings. That was one of the sources of my disillusionment with the idea of so many categories to begin with. I think they should be broader. If a person says: "I like Equilibrium. Can you recommend more viking metal?" and strict category adherence were followed, potential bands that the person probably would like would get passed up, most likely. Finntroll might not be viking metal to some, and the status of Amon Amarth varies with who you ask, but they're close enough to the general concept a person is looking for when they look for viking metal.


I didn't say the lyrics didn't play any part whatsoever. What I said was they do not dominate classification, which they do not. That is just a fact. Musicality is the basis for classification. Also, wikipedia is not a reliable source for classification. Wikipedia is not a very reliable source for anything, honestly. A much more reliable source for genre classification would be: Metal-Archives.com. Bash the elitists who post there all you want. They are very educated people, aside from a few. Mainstream media sources, in general, know nothing of genre classification. What I have often found is that few in the mainstream sense understand anything regarding music, in general. It is the underground, in all sub-genres of music, which is the most educated on it, because they live and breath for it, unlike most mainstream listeners, who merely see it as entertainment. (And that doesn't mean all. Plenty of people can enjoy it just the same. This is just a general rule, based on my observations.) Trust me, when I say that I know what I am talking about. Not to put you down. You have displayed more knowledge than most people, who I have spoken with outside of the Metal scene. And yes, Finntroll are not Viking Metal. They are properly classified as Folk Metal. Amon Amarth aren't REALLY Viking Metal. I promise. They really aren't. Their lyrics are misleading. As I have stated, a lot of people do not understand that.

Again, I do not wish to come off as a know-it-all, but trust me when I say that I know what I speak of.

Regardless, musical classification tends to divide listeners a lot of times. I only discuss classification, when I feel terms are being improperly used.

[Garland]

I believe you. I know you know the system. Amon Amarth are black metal. Finntroll is folk metal. I would never think to disagree. I disagree with the very need for the system. IE: If I said: "In literal creationism, they believe the universe was created in six days," I would be right, whether or not you believe in literal creationism or not. You ARE correct in the classification of bands. I'm just saying it doesn't mean a thing. Music is music. I know you know the system. I think the system causes more problems than it remedies. People spend more time arguing about what genre a band fits in, when both people enjoy the music, rather than just enjoying the music. Amon Amarth is a good example. It doesn't matter if they're black metal or viking metal. They're cool. Same with Finntroll. That's my stance. I think a few broad categories might be useful, but I think, at least with metal (since I don't care much for other music to research it), there are too many insanely subtle subcategories that the only people who'd understand them are the people who don't need them. It'd be like Albert Einstein coming up with physics classifications for Stephen Hawking. Doesn't help the average Joe who needs it one bit. All the experts know the stuff w/o the labels.

[Montoya]

CRADLE OF FILTH IS BLACK METAL!!!! aaaaaaaaaaaaRRRRRRRRRRGGGHHHH!!!! :shoot:

:p


I believe you. I know you know the system. Amon Amarth are black metal. Finntroll is folk metal. I would never think to disagree. I disagree with the very need for the system. IE: If I said: "In literal creationism, they believe the universe was created in six days," I would be right, whether or not you believe in literal creationism or not. You ARE correct in the classification of bands. I'm just saying it doesn't mean a thing. Music is music. I know you know the system. I think the system causes more problems than it remedies. People spend more time arguing about what genre a band fits in, when both people enjoy the music, rather than just enjoying the music. Amon Amarth is a good example. It doesn't matter if they're black metal or viking metal. They're cool. Same with Finntroll. That's my stance. I think a few broad categories might be useful, but I think, at least with metal (since I don't care much for other music to research it), there are too many insanely subtle subcategories that the only people who'd understand them are the people who don't need them. It'd be like Albert Einstein coming up with physics classifications for Stephen Hawking. Doesn't help the average Joe who needs it one bit. All the experts know the stuff w/o the labels.

^But I agree with this^

I stopped caring what I was listening to a while ago, and decided that if it sounded good than I liked it. I don't remember what Amon Amarth is classified nowadays, but the song "Amon Amarth" is still great regardless.

[Disenchanted_Cynic]

I believe you. I know you know the system. Amon Amarth are black metal. Finntroll is folk metal. I would never think to disagree. I disagree with the very need for the system. IE: If I said: "In literal creationism, they believe the universe was created in six days," I would be right, whether or not you believe in literal creationism or not. You ARE correct in the classification of bands. I'm just saying it doesn't mean a thing. Music is music. I know you know the system. I think the system causes more problems than it remedies. People spend more time arguing about what genre a band fits in, when both people enjoy the music, rather than just enjoying the music. Amon Amarth is a good example. It doesn't matter if they're black metal or viking metal. They're cool. Same with Finntroll. That's my stance. I think a few broad categories might be useful, but I think, at least with metal (since I don't care much for other music to research it), there are too many insanely subtle subcategories that the only people who'd understand them are the people who don't need them. It'd be like Albert Einstein coming up with physics classifications for Stephen Hawking. Doesn't help the average Joe who needs it one bit. All the experts know the stuff w/o the labels.


Well, I was pointing that out as well, if you notice. I was saying that I dislike the classification system as well, and that it is useless in the grand spectrum of things. I only wish that if it is going to be used, that it be used correctly, you know?

Amon Amarth are one of those Melodic Death Metal bands, who became popular during the MeloDeath wave in the 90s. Cool for them. They lasted out the trend. They are not my cup of tea, but it is cool that some people can enjoy them.

On that note, I believe my point has been made here. I am going to start a thread of my own.

[The Man]

It is not ridiculous, in fact. Nine out of ten people I have met, who actually know their material, can easily differentiate between the genres.Yes my point is that people new to the genres are going to have no idea what any of this crap means. Someone who's never listened to the genre can't tell the difference between black and death, let alone Viking and folk.


Lyrics are not what determines a bands genre, ultimately.Uh, in many cases, yes they are. If a band doesn't deal with paganism in their lyrics, they aren't pagan metal. If a band doesn't advocate religious Satanism, they aren't orthodox black metal. If a band doesn't advocate national socialism, they aren't NSBM. If a band doesn't advocate anarchism, they aren't anarcho-punk. A lot of musical 'genres' are more an ideological grouping than they are a classification of a band's sound. No one's ever going to accuse Kroda of sounding anything like Branikald (even though they covered one of their songs), but they're grouped together due to their ideological beliefs, just as a number of bands who write about Vikings are grouped together due to their lyrical content.


Wintersun sound nothing like Viking Metal.They sound just as much like Moonsorrow and Ensiferum as, say, Amon Amarth do; more, in fact.


In fact, they have much more to do with Melodic Death Metal.I'll agree here, but so do Amon Amarth.


This is also where Folk Metal would come into play. They have more influences from Folk Metal than Viking Metal, simply because Jari was in Ensiferum, a premiere Folk Metal band (Not viking) I simply cannot understand where you would draw such a conclusion. But alas, you seem to believe that Amon Amarth are typically considered Viking Metal, which they are not.False. Metal Archives may not list them as such, but their own official page states, "Official page of the Viking metal band. Includes a biography, news, show dates and photos." Several other sites classify them as Viking Metal as well; I can bring several up if need be.


They are not considered Viking Metal by anyone who knows anything but the genre as a whole. They are labeled that by the mainstream audience because they do not know any better. They see Viking imagery and lyrics and automatically associate them with Viking Metal, which again, they are not. They are a Melodic Death Metal band, and it is as simple as that. Music is very much defined by the sound, and much less by lyrics. Lyrics are a much more superficial trait than sound, and that is another thing many metalheads will tell you. For instance, Slayer's lyrics have a lot in common with early Death Metal bands, but Slayer are and never were Death Metal, despite the fact that their sound influenced it in many ways. They are (or rather were) an LA Thrash Metal band. Lyrics do not define a band's genre. They take a backseat to music. Nokturnal Mortum really cannot be categorized as Viking Metal, even by their sound. They are primarily a Black Metal band with some symphonic and folk overtones. Not the same concept at all. Confusion often stems from the uneducated, forever sending labels and such into a spiral of even more confusion, simply because one person began to pass on false information and it is a chain reaction from there. That is how these confusions about labels start.I'll agree that in a lot of cases, the genre classification has nothing to do with lyrics. The distinction between death and thrash certainly has nothing to do with lyrics, as does the distinction between folk and black, or black and death. However, to say that Viking metal is not about lyrics is simply wrong. If a band does not deal with Vikings, they are by definition not Viking metal. They may be pagan metal, as Moonsorrow and nearly all Viking metal bands are. However, they are not Viking metal.

This is ultimately all subjective, despite what you seem to believe, so I'm not going to argue about genres anymore. Your opinion is just that - an opinion. Frankly, metal listeners being unable to tolerate others' categorisations of metal bands is something that often puts non-metal listeners off the music, from what I've observed, so I'm not going to participate in this any further.

[Disenchanted_Cynic]

Metal listeners generally know far more about Metal classification than non-metal listeners. I listen to far more music than Metal, sir. When a band states they are a certain style of music, it does not make them right. Many bands poorly classify themselves, either in an attempt to distance themselves from a specific scene, or to pretend that they have done something more original than they actually have. And I will continue to state that music is defined primarily by musicality, and less by lyrics. The fact that you would even argue with me about such a thing is absurd. I never, at any point, said lyrics had nothing to do with it. I merely stated that they have far less to do with classification than does the music. That is simply a fact. Any educated musician, music listeners, etc... will tell you the same thing. Metal-Archives is a far more credible source than any website you can name to counter any such classifications. Many points you have just brought up, I have already answered, such as Amon Amarth being related to Melodic Death Metal. I have already said that, and they are, by definition, a Melodic Death Metal bands. Wintersun have some Folk tendencies, but they are Melodic Death Metal as well. I would associate Unleashed with Vikings over Amon Amarth, or Wintersun any day, but they are NOT Viking Metal, simply because their lyrics deal with such themes. They are Death Metal. And like I said, Ensiferum are not Viking Metal, simply because they would like to state themselves as such. A band like Judas Priest could call themselves Death Metal, but they would be wrong. That argument just does not hold any water. With that, I have made my points several times and I will take my leave of this thread. Good day, sir.

[The Man]

Bands do sometimes (maybe even often) miscategorise their work, but your belief that Viking metal is defined by a particular sound rather than lyrical content is not shared by all metal listeners. Some in the metal press, such as The Metal Observer (http://74.125.47.132/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS308US309&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=cache:www.metal-observer.com/articles.php%3Flid%3D1%26sid%3D4%26id%3D4685) (linking to Google cache since the site is currently moving servers), share my view of Viking metal being a more ideological grouping of bands than a stylistic one. In summary: your opinion is not law. The sooner you learn this the better for you.

[Garland]

You two are both right. You both cite credible sources that echo your sentiments. It'd probably be better just to decide that there is no universal code of music classification. There are just a whole bunch of experts, with varying degrees of self proclaimed authority, with varying numbers of followers. Remember that there are no forests without trees. Music classifications are forests and songs are trees. If you spend all your time trying to study forests, you won't be spending any time studying trees. Trees are what we actually enjoy. Forests just make conversation quicker and less wordy.

[The Man]

That's more or less what I've been saying; this stuff is quite subjective, and it's pretty damn pointless to argue about genres.

[Disenchanted_Cynic]

Bands do sometimes (maybe even often) miscategorise their work, but your belief that Viking metal is defined by a particular sound rather than lyrical content is not shared by all metal listeners. Some in the metal press, such as The Metal Observer (http://74.125.47.132/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS308US309&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=cache:www.metal-observer.com/articles.php%3Flid%3D1%26sid%3D4%26id%3D4685) (linking to Google cache since the site is currently moving servers), share my view of Viking metal being a more ideological grouping of bands than a stylistic one. In summary: your opinion is not law. The sooner you learn this the better for you.


Not all, but most. My opinions are backed up by people who primarily listen to Viking Metal, and logically, they are more credible than more of an occasional listener. Not only that, but my study of music goes far beyond that. The idea that lyrical content defines a MUSICAL genre more than the music itself is completely absurd. Simply talking about Vikings, Norse themes, etc... does not make you a Viking Metal band. If the music does not match up, then it is not. I can understand a statement such as "If it is musically Viking Metal, but not lyrically, then it is not Viking Metal." That is a fair enough opinion. However, stating "The lyrics are the prime trait that defines Viking Metal," is ridiculous. If it is not musically Viking Metal, then it cannot be defined as such. What I would be able to agree with you on, is that it cannot be Viking Metal without both traits. But, according to you, or at least how you have made it seem, you seem to believe that the lyrical themes are what primarily defines Viking Metal, and that is completely wrong, as bands such as Unleashed and Amon Amarth speak of Vikings, yet are not Viking Metal. That applies to more bands than them, but they are great examples.


I must eat my words here, as I had previously announced that I would no longer be posting in this thread. :lol:

[The Man]

I know a lot of people who listen mostly to folk and viking metal too, and most of them think viking metal requires lyrics that are actually viking-themed. Like I said, music classification is often largely subjective.

[Garland]

Now you two are arguing just to argue. The Man isn't saying that the music doesn't matter in categorization. Cynic isn't saying that the lyrics don't matter in categorization. It's surely an equal blend of both. Clearly Wagner's Nibelungen opera isn't viking metal because it sings of Norse themes, as the style is important. But, Vintersorg's metaphysical pieces aren't viking metal, even though they sound pretty much the same as all his Nordic themed pieces which are. You two are both right. It's just you both picked a small facet of the same righteousness.

Apples are fruits. Oranges are fruits. I'm a world renowned expert on fruits, and I know that apples are fruits. Wait, I know everything there is to know about fruits, and I'm telling you, oranges are fruits. *Sigh* look at this site. These guys do nothing all day but eat fruits, and THEY say that apples are fruits. Yeah, that's great, but I have THIS site that says oranges are fruits. So, the people on my site are better than the people on your site.

You're both right.

[The Man]

I thought I read something along the lines of "MOST people who listen to viking metal say blah blah blah" but now that I look again I don't see it so maybe I really was arguing just to argue :monster:

[DK]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/Ace_Venom/graffiti.jpg

[The Man]

http://www.almost1337.com/mp3/aaron/raistlin.jpg

[eestlinc]

hey, that's not on topic!

why do metal threads always devolve into name calling? See, e.g., \/\/\extreme blackness/\/\/ (http://theblackmetaldialogues.com/intro.html).

[Disenchanted_Cynic]

I know a lot of people who listen mostly to folk and viking metal too, and most of them think viking metal requires lyrics that are actually viking-themed. Like I said, music classification is often largely subjective.


You did not read what I posted.

I told you that what I could agree on, is that if it does not have both traits I.E. if it is not both musically and lyrically viking themed, then it cannot be defined as Viking Metal. If it is lyrically, and not musically, then it cannot be defined as such. If it is musically, and not lyrically, then it cannot be defined as such. That definition makes much more sense than anything previously stated.


What a genre is, is set in stone. What bands fit those classifications, are not. However, in knowing what defines certain genres, it is very easy to categorize, if need be.

[The Man]

I know a lot of people who listen mostly to folk and viking metal too, and most of them think viking metal requires lyrics that are actually viking-themed. Like I said, music classification is often largely subjective.


You did not read what I posted.

I told you that what I could agree on, is that if it does not have both traits I.E. if it is not both musically and lyrically viking themed, then it cannot be defined as Viking Metal. If it is lyrically, and not musically, then it cannot be defined as such. If it is musically, and not lyrically, then it cannot be defined as such. That definition makes much more sense than anything previously stated.


What a genre is, is set in stone. What bands fit those classifications, are not. However, in knowing what defines certain genres, it is very easy to categorize, if need be.

Yeah I realised that I misread your post:
I thought I read something along the lines of "MOST people who listen to viking metal say blah blah blah" but now that I look again I don't see it so maybe I really was arguing just to argue :monster:And in that case, yeah far enough, we can agree to disagree on the specifics of what bands fit in what genre. :monster: I agree that Amon Amarth et al. don't really have much musically in common with most of the music usually characterised as viking metal, but at the same time I can see why other people consider them that. I'll just say their categorisation as such is hazy at best :monster:

[Disenchanted_Cynic]

But personally, you know correct categorization, so I do not understand defense of such things. Let's just agree that most people make very uneducated assumptions. :lol:

[The Man]

different people have different opinions on what constitutes correct categorisation. While I'm certainly not going to accept someone who calls a melodic death metal band black metal, for the most part I accept that such things are somewhat subjective.

[Garland]

Is there even a singular authority? I haven't found one. I think the best that can be hoped for is that people get things close. I actually think genres are too specific, and that's why there's so much disagreement. Because of the infinite possible variations on any particular element, the most specific subgenres need to be gotten rid of entirely. It's important to know if a song is metal, rap, pop, rock, country, classical, or jazz, for example, as the overall genre of a song is fairly easy to decide conclusively. Granted, even at this level one can find arguments, especially in transition pieces, say from swing to blues to rock, where the lines were still blurred. This seems to be happening to country as a genre entirely. When I was little, my dad's country music was more folksy and ho-down in nature, and now you'd have a hard time not calling it pop or rock. Bands like Within Temptation, which is has been my favorite group to an insane degree since I discovered them on Youtube a few weeks ago, seem to waver on the border of two or more genres as they ride the line between underground and mainstream. It's just not worth the effort to get too specific, as there are always going to be variations, and the definitions are too easy to break. The KISS rule seems to apply here. The point of genres is to make finding good music easy, not to make it so specific that you have to search through multiple genres because similar music is separated on technicalities you probably don't care about, because when all is said and done, you still had to sift through the same number of bands, but you had to do it in two sessions instead of one.

[Disenchanted_Cynic]

I know there are variations, but you are straying from the topic. The point is that when confusions about genres like "Viking Metal," arise, it is usually because someone who is uneducated decided to blindly categorize a band.

[Garland]

My point is, educated by whom? There's no central standard. If there actually is a recognized authority on the matter I'll concede that people can be uneducated on the matter. What I see are different large coalitions of music fans each calling themselves authoritative. I read your sites. I read The Man's sites. I read your posts and I read The Man's posts. There's no way to actually be educated in some indisputable tenets of music classification. That's why I say it's fruitless to try. When a new fan comes to learn about the genres, s/he'll see a handful of well written, well supported declarations that very often conflict. It's almost like religion. You get a handful of equally persuasive texts with about the same amount of proof and the same amount of diehard fans. But you never get a conclusive decision because nobody's reached one. I'd love a real authority. These different musical minds aught to come to a concensus, because the current situation just confuses people.

[Avarice-ness]

OMG WTF IS THIS THREAD IT'S LIKE IF MY HUSBAND WAS ARGUING WITH HIMSELF OR SOMETHING. *headache*

I didn't read through all the angry-ness so listen to Kivimetsän Druidi, not viking, but folk. And folk is yummy.


Also, as for the whole "Educated in genre's" BS. It is truly BS, in this day and age, bands and artists are making up their own genres to be "individual" i.e. when Britney Spear and christina agular(what ever) showed up, everything sounding like them was "Bubblegum pop" years later Avril Lagibveeajshdjash(whatever) wantsto be punk but spunky, so she calls herself "Bubblegum punk" thus the rest of the world follows. Problem is, shes' the only one in this genre anyone knows of.

SO WHO CHOOSES THE GENRE CERTAIN BANDS FIT IN?
The MASS public honestly. Hell if all bands existed and followed the.. well according to some of you, set in stone genre markers (IF YOU HAVE THIS IN YOUR BAND, YOU ARE THIS GENRE) then it can easily be said that some bands change Genre's MANY times throughout their existance.

Back in the 80's, Metallica was considered metal. Now we call the SAME 80's metallica hardrock, if not rock. Guess what though, Metallica still calls themselves metal.

With the opinions and ever changing factors that are placed into the whole concepts of genre's and band composition... no one can be right when it comes to who's in what genre. If 300 million people say blah blah blah is this, it'll prolly stay that until 400 million people say blah blahblah is that, and then it'll be that.

If I was in a band I'd do like 3 metal cd's and then a pop cd and a new age cd in between, only to screw with people who even CARE what's in what genre. "OMG THEY WERE METAL THEN THEY WERE POP THEN METAL AGAIN?!?! WHAT DO WE CONSIDER THEM?! METAL'POP?! OMZGZ NO WAY. Q.Q.QQ..QQ.Q.Q"
When you classify the music, you kill the music.

To be educated in something, you must be taught by someone who is considered a MASTER in the subject. Someone who works in the field they have MASTERED and have done so for YEARS. Reading wikipedia,watching TV, reading books, listening to the radio makes you an avid music fan, butnot someone who we should all take their word for because they consider themselves educated on a varying subject.

[Alex151]

you sure it's not satanic metal rather than viking

[o_O]

Two sweet folk metal bands are Eluveitie and Korpiklaani. Especially Eluveitie because they use a whole range of Celtic instruments.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iijKLHCQw5o">Eluveitie - Inis Mona</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZbucSufNm4">Korpiklaani - Keep on Galloping</a>

[The Man]

I'm also going to strongly recommend Blut aus Nord's Memoria Vetusta albums. None of the others really have the same sound, except for Ultima Thulée which isn't as polished; after the first Memoria Vetusta they started to explore more dissonant and industrial-influenced territory to the point where MoRT is barely even metal (or music in the traditional sense, for that matter). I'm not really sure where they would fit lyrically since the only album with released lyrics is Memoria Vetusta I, which is fairly Viking-influenced (though the band itself is French). Memoria Vetusta II, which just came out a few days ago though I've had the leak for weeks, is one of the best albums released in any genre for awhile, by my estimation.

As for metal bands taking complete left-turns and doing non-metal CDs, several have done that - Ulver isn't even recognisably metal anymore, and several others - Borknagar, Drudkh, Green Carnation, and Hel come to mind offhand - have done one-off acoustic or folk CDs.

[Garland]

Of all the albums I got ahold of, the only band that kept my interest was Equilibrium. They're the most epic of all the viking albums I came across. My favorite music for the last month and a half or so is symphonic metal. Within Temptation and Nightwish get all the attention on my iTunes now. Blut Im Auge and Wingthor's Hammer are probably my two favorite tracks of viking. I do love the intro to Wurzelbert since it's nearly right out of the intro to Zelda Link to the Past.

[Balzac]

Actually, Metallica call themselves hard rock now. They even go as far to say they are the Take That in the hard rock genre.

Also Eluveitie fucking rock.

[Disenchanted_Cynic]

OMG WTF IS THIS THREAD IT'S LIKE IF MY HUSBAND WAS ARGUING WITH HIMSELF OR SOMETHING. *headache*

I didn't read through all the angry-ness so listen to Kivimetsän Druidi, not viking, but folk. And folk is yummy.
Also, as for the whole "Educated in genre's" BS. It is truly BS, in this day and age, bands and artists are making up their own genres to be "individual" i.e. when Britney Spear and christina agular(what ever) showed up, everything sounding like them was "Bubblegum pop" years later Avril Lagibveeajshdjash(whatever) wantsto be punk but spunky, so she calls herself "Bubblegum punk" thus the rest of the world follows. Problem is, shes' the only one in this genre anyone knows of. w

SO WHO CHOOSES THE GENRE CERTAIN BANDS FIT IN?
The MASS public honestly. Hell if all bands existed and followed the.. well according to some of you, set in stone genre markers (IF YOU HAVE THIS IN YOUR BAND, YOU ARE THIS GENRE) then it can easily be said that some bands change Genre's MANY times throughout their existance.

Back in the 80's, Metallica was considered metal. Now we call the SAME 80's metallica hardrock, if not rock. Guess what though, Metallica still calls themselves metal.

With the opinions and ever changing factors that are placed into the whole concepts of genre's and band composition... no one can be right when it comes to who's in what genre. If 300 million people say blah blah blah is this, it'll prolly stay that until 400 million people say blah blahblah is that, and then it'll be that.

If I was in a band I'd do like 3 metal cd's and then a pop cd and a new age cd in between, only to screw with people who even CARE what's in what genre. "OMG THEY WERE METAL THEN THEY WERE POP THEN METAL AGAIN?!?! WHAT DO WE CONSIDER THEM?! METAL'POP?! OMZGZ NO WAY. Q.Q.QQ..QQ.Q.Q"
When you classify the music, you kill the music.

To be educated in something, you must be taught by someone who is considered a MASTER in the subject. Someone who works in the field they have MASTERED and have done so for YEARS. Reading wikipedia,watching TV, reading books, listening to the radio makes you an avid music fan, butnot someone who we should all take their word for because they consider themselves educated on a varying subject.


I am sorry, but you are wrong, and I have elaborated on everything that you have said. Because you have not read through everything that was said, you would not know that. I am not going to make a full response to your post because the text is very hard to go back and read over and over, and I am through arguing about this. It is clear to me that you have nothing to do with real metal, or the metal underground to begin with. I would not argue with Bruce Lee about martial arts, if he were alive. You should not argue with me about metal. I apologize if this makes me come off as pretentious, but I do not care.

P.S. Metallica's first four records are still thrash metal records, regardless of what you, or any other fool says.


Let's quit talking about this and get back to talking about Viking Metal bands.

Earlier on, someone mentioned Windir. Great band. I recommend them to anyone that is already into Viking Metal, but has not heard of them yet. 1184 is their best record, in my opinion, though everything is good.