heartless form

[sir helix]

why is it that sora turns into a heartless at the worst possable moment, i was fighting Xigbar and got to the point where he fires off a volley of shots and i tried to counter this by turning into final form and replenishing my health but no, Sora went heartless and i had to redo the fight and lost my final form, and didnt get it back till i replayed the game. so the point of this thread, tell us about playing KH and having a battal plan go wrong at the worst moment.

[Darkswordofchaos]

I Hate that same thing happend to me when i was fighting Xigbar.

Its alright for regular enemies but you cant revert or heal so if you run low on health then you just have to run till your form timer runs out. and it never happens to me unless i really, really, really, really, really, dont want it to.:mad2:

[sir helix]

ever go heartless during the the boss fight in port royal wile your fighting the cursed heartless

[blackmage_nuke]

The first time it happened to me I hadnt seen master form yet so i thought maybe my finger slipped and I had turned into master form. Naturally i thought master form really sucked and didnt use it for a while.

[PuPu]

The worst times when I've gotten Anti-Form were against:

Xigbar
Xaldin
Demyx when he does the "kill 10 water clones in 10 seconds" challenge

[Marshall Banana]

You've reminded me of another reason why I hate KHII. :gruffi:

[Heath]

Yeah, I must admit the same thing happened to me as happened to blackmage_nuke. I thought it was bloody annoying but still tried it out later to double-check what had happened and if - perhaps - the form sucked because I was doing it wrong or something. It's incredibly irritating.

[Tavrobel]

Yeah, sorry you guys don't know how to properly use the best form in the game.

[sir helix]

iv got this down to a science.

Valor- when you need a drive form and cant use any thing better.
wisdom- when fighting enemys that either warp around or hit too hard.
master- when fighting a lot of heartless.
final- when fighting inside the world that never was
anti sora- when your fighting a boss where final or wisdom would be nice to have.

[Fonzie]

iv got this down to a science.

Valor- when you need a drive form and cant use any thing better.
wisdom- when fighting enemys that either warp around or hit too hard.
master- when fighting a lot of heartless.
final- when fighting inside the world that never was
anti sora- when your fighting a boss where final or wisdom would be nice to have.

You have no idea how the Heartless Form works.

It's a point system.

[Tavrobel]

Actually, no one has ANY idea how Anti-Form works. I've tried testing the point system before, and it still doesn't always work as expected (as in, any fight against Xemnas should almost guarantee an Anti-Form if you've died twice and Continued). I've seen more evidence that you'll get Anti-Form if you get hit during transformation.

But, of course, no one here knows how to use the best Form in the game, so I'm not surprised that ignorance is widely abounded.

Then again, Final Form is slightly easier to use.

[hhr1dluv]

Could you tell us how to use the "best form in the game" then? And why is it the best? Is it just simply the strongest/fastest or whatever? Because I personally find it hella annoying that you can't heal and that it empties your drive counter. Even the strength aspect might not make up for that.

[Tavrobel]

Well, if we go by the "get hit" system for activating Anti-Form, then it's free damage and a free heal against the enemy target (and since you got hit, but were healed, it's a wasted attack by the enemy). People often overlook the fact that activating any Form will deal damage based on your Magic stat; it's fairly large modifier, too. As for how it performs in battle, it has much higher movement speed than any of the other Forms (exception: Final Form Glide MAX), the greatest attack speed, the finisher has the largest area of effect (yes, it is even larger than the volume for all of the special attacks for Final Form), and not only that, if you have an enemy locked on, it will bring Sora straight to the enemy. Most attacks even knock an enemy into hit recovery (similar to Guard Break, but the window of opportunity is smaller, while the attacks of Anti-Form fill in the gaps).

Anti-Form isn't meant to be a Form that prolongs a fight; given all of these stats, it is very much a glass cannon and survival depends on not getting hit. After all, when Sora engages a Heartless, it's more or less dead, so why should it be any different in this case?

One might argue that Final Form is the best, especially with the convenience factor (and there is no argument against that); once you get it, it just plain outclasses the other Forms. Game breaking. Anti-Form has a much steeper learning curve than anything else, but when properly abused, it deals the most damage, takes the least, and looks the coolest. Half the bloody time, Final Form looks like a bunch of yellow and blue lines put together (assuming Ultima weapon).

Substantively, how do you use it? Simple: don't get hit, you'll be fine. Of course, learning how not to get hit may be the challenge here, and how not to get hit varies from playstyle to playstyle. I come from a background of a game with various escape tools (actually, it's just one, and it owns everything by virtue of awesome), and large amounts of ways to kill stuff in a brightly colored fashion.

[Darkswordofchaos]

I like using the anti form the only thing i dont like about it is if you Do get hit and knocked into critical you cant heal your self with magic or items and you cant revert

[sdm42393]

Y'know, it takes all of KH1 and Riku's Story in CoM to figure out that darkness isn't bad, then SE throws a dark from at you with every drawback possible. >_<

[PuPu]

Anti-Form has another huge flaw, besides the fact that you take more damage and can't heal: you can't use magic either. Magic happens to be the best at taking out Heartless/Nobody groups and happens to be the ultimate defense as well (Reflect)


...the finisher has the largest area of effect...
More than Wisdom/Master/Final Form's Thundaga and Firaga finishers? (Okay, maybe not Master because it can't do Magic finishers)


...but when properly abused, it deals the most damage, takes the least...
Actually, Wisdom/Master/Final can just completely avoid damage by using Reflect AND deal damage at the same time. There's no way running around in Anti-Form will cause you to take less damage than Reflect, which basically negates almost every attack in the game (except a few such as Descend Heartless Angel). Also, I thought Final Form could deal the most damage by Firaga spamming?


Simple: don't get hit, you'll be fine.
Easier said than done, especially since some enemies IMMEDIATELY counter-attack as soon as you hit them with your finisher before you get a chance to escape. Also, I find it is really hard to avoid Xigbar and his lasers, especially when he gets down to his last 1.5 bars of health.

There's also the fact that Anti-Form disables Reaction Commands, which appear in just about every boss battle in the game and can give you a huge advantage in battle (excluding a few, such as Xigbar's Warp Snipe and Luxord's Begin Game if you are bad at it) by dealing lots of damage to the enemy, weakening them, stopping their attacks, etc. In fact, they are even required to win certain battles (ex: Grim Reaper). Really, I'd hate to fight enemies such as Grim Reaper or Xaldin without Reaction Commands.

[Goldenboko]

PuPu lays down the law :cool:

[Tavrobel]

Anti-Form has another huge flaw, besides the fact that you take more damage and can't heal: you can't use magic either. Magic happens to be the best at taking out Heartless/Nobody groups and happens to be the ultimate defense as well (Reflect)

More than Wisdom/Master/Final Form's Thundaga and Firaga finishers? (Okay, maybe not Master because it can't do Magic finishers)

Actually, Wisdom/Master/Final can just completely avoid damage by using Reflect AND deal damage at the same time. There's no way running around in Anti-Form will cause you to take less damage than Reflect, which basically negates almost every attack in the game (except a few such as Descend Heartless Angel). Also, I thought Final Form could deal the most damage by Firaga spamming?

Easier said than done, especially since some enemies IMMEDIATELY counter-attack as soon as you hit them with your finisher before you get a chance to escape. Also, I find it is really hard to avoid Xigbar and his lasers, especially when he gets down to his last 1.5 bars of health.

There's also the fact that Anti-Form disables Reaction Commands, which appear in just about every boss battle in the game and can give you a huge advantage in battle (excluding a few, such as Xigbar's Warp Snipe and Luxord's Begin Game if you are bad at it) by dealing lots of damage to the enemy, weakening them, stopping their attacks, etc. In fact, they are even required to win certain battles (ex: Grim Reaper). Really, I'd hate to fight enemies such as Grim Reaper or Xaldin without Reaction Commands.

Not a problem if you don't get hit. I never said anything about Magic, but this reminds me of our arguments way back in the day.

"omg magic is useless"
"no it isnt"
"stop sucking at videogames"
"it's my style"
"well you sux"
"ur arrogant"
"so?"
"magic isnt useless"
"not unless you hit the x button fast enough"

I've matured. I've decided that Magic is useless until after I need it, and yet have no way to obtain it. I've never been a fan of game-breaking. Ask Mullet. He'll tell you all about DII.

Actually, yes, it is the largest AoE. Have you ever actually tried using them instead of looking at the graphics? The only one that comes close is Thundaga, but since it's multiple bolts applied individually, I can't say that as an attack, Thundaga has the largest AoE since it just uses the same as a single cast of the spell for multiple instances. Firaga is limited by range, and since half of it is used up by Sora, it doesn't have much of an AoE at all (no arguments against convenience, though).

Final doesn't have a finisher, either for most Magics; the (presumably) third cast has the same animation and damage as the others do (except Blizzard). And for the issue of sustained damage? Not bloody likely. You're going to run out of MP sooner or later. Anti-Form is best played with the prevention game; if the enemy is always in hit recovery, they can't initiate those attacks. Additionally, Reflect can be interrupted as much as Anti-Form's attacks can. I must admit it is a playstyle quirk of mine. But I don't suck at video games.

Can't respond much to your Reactions argument but I never saw this as a flaw. It can still take down a boss based on HP only, and deals the most damage, which easily makes up for the damage dealt by most Reactions. Even if you did need a Reaction to complete the fight, it would take you just as long in any one of the Forms to activate it or fight your way to the enemy without doing something stupid. 90-some HP is more than you think, and 120 is just plain broken. As for Xigbar, people still haven't learned how to run in a circle? That's the only thing realistic about this game in the first place.

No fair using Reflect-spam as an argument. That's obtainable without a Form, and we are dealing with what is the best Form, not whatever the designers happened to decide should break the game.

As for the person who said something about the Darkness not being bad, there's more than one way that KHII undoes what CoM tried to do to the characters. I didn't see it when I played through the first time in KHII, but KHII often tramples over character development in CoM. Tragic, truly.

PuPu, why can't you ever let me have my fun? It's like you're that guy at concerts shouting "stop having fun!" It's not my fault that people listen to me.

[Jessweeee♪]

It's so fun to run around in Anti-Form :spin:

[Goldenboko]

PuPu, why can't you ever let me have my fun? It's like you're that guy at concerts shouting "stop having fun!" It's not my fault that people listen to me.

From 4 years of hanging out with him Tav, he is that guy, get used to it. :P

[Darkswordofchaos]

Lol this has turned into a very heated debate but every one is wrong the best form is anti master final form duhhh

[PuPu]

Not a problem if you don't get hit. I never said anything about Magic, but this reminds me of our arguments way back in the day.

"omg magic is useless"
"no it isnt"
"stop sucking at videogames"
"it's my style"
"well you sux"
"ur arrogant"
"so?"
"magic isnt useless"
"not unless you hit the x button fast enough"

I've matured. I've decided that Magic is useless until after I need it, and yet have no way to obtain it. I've never been a fan of game-breaking. Ask Mullet. He'll tell you all about DII.
Oh yeah, I remember these too. But I think it was SeedRankLou who argued this with you more than I did.


Actually, yes, it is the largest AoE. Have you ever actually tried using them instead of looking at the graphics? The only one that comes close is Thundaga, but since it's multiple bolts applied individually, I can't say that as an attack, Thundaga has the largest AoE since it just uses the same as a single cast of the spell for multiple instances. Firaga is limited by range, and since half of it is used up by Sora, it doesn't have much of an AoE at all (no arguments against convenience, though).
Well, yes I have used them. I just think it seems that when the attacks are used, the enemies die within a similar radius away from Sora with all of those attacks. But I guess I can't really prove this.


Final doesn't have a finisher, either for most Magics; the (presumably) third cast has the same animation and damage as the others do (except Blizzard).
Wait, the finisher does the SAME damage as the rest? Seriously? After all, I just went by the fact that regular Sora's Magic finishers look all the same as well. Wait, do regular Sora's Magic finishers also do the same damage as the regular magic?


And for the issue of sustained damage? Not bloody likely. You're going to run out of MP sooner or later. Anti-Form is best played with the prevention game; if the enemy is always in hit recovery, they can't initiate those attacks. Additionally, Reflect can be interrupted as much as Anti-Form's attacks can.
Alright, you got me there.


But I don't suck at video games.
Obviously. You're way better than anybody I know at KH.
(especially the poster right after my previous post :tongue:)


Can't respond much to your Reactions argument but I never saw this as a flaw. It can still take down a boss based on HP only, and deals the most damage, which easily makes up for the damage dealt by most Reactions. Even if you did need a Reaction to complete the fight, it would take you just as long in any one of the Forms to activate it or fight your way to the enemy without doing something stupid.
I mostly agree, but there is one important exception: how do you even DAMAGE Xaldin if you can't get past Aero without using Learn? Anti-Form's attacks are all physical and will simply cause you bounce right off of Aero. At least with the other forms, they can use magic to pierce Aero.


As for Xigbar, people still haven't learned how to run in a circle? That's the only thing realistic about this game in the first place.
Are you kidding? That's the easy part. I'm talking about the part where says "Hrargh! Take This!" and shoots two giant white lasers that you can use Warp Snipe on. You've got those two white lasers bouncing off the walls and ceiling, AND him shooting at you with his regular attacks, and I just can't follow the white lasers' movements enough to completely avoid them consistently.


No fair using Reflect-spam as an argument. That's obtainable without a Form, and we are dealing with what is the best Form, not whatever the designers happened to decide should break the game.
But...it's the fact that you CAN'T USE IT in Anti-Form and the fact that you CAN USE IT in three other forms that give those three an advantage over Anti-Form. Even though this isn't KH2FM, Limit Form is imo the best, by the way.


PuPu, why can't you ever let me have my fun? It's like you're that guy at concerts shouting "stop having fun!" It's not my fault that people listen to me.
Hey come on, you have your fun more than anyone else in the KH forums. And you've killed my fun, and tons of other people's fun on the KH forums, way more than I, or anybody else, has ever done to you. :p
It's not my fault I don't listen to you, is it? :D


From 4 years of hanging out with him Tav, he is that guy, get used to it. :P
Only to you. :cool:

[Tavrobel]

Oh yeah, I remember these too. But I think it was SeedRankLou who argued this with you more than I did.

Yeah, him, too. Although, I always wondered why. He's seen me play Diablo II, so my methods and tactics should be no surprise.


Well, yes I have used them. I just think it seems that when the attacks are used, the enemies die within a similar radius away from Sora with all of those attacks. But I guess I can't really prove this.

The Anti-Form aerial finisher is the largest single sustained attack in the game. If you want to talk about effective range, Thundaga in Final is the largest, but seeing as how Final doesn't actually ever improve the spell, it only gives you more of it. Maybe that in itself is its own upgrade.


Wait, the finisher does the SAME damage as the rest? Seriously? After all, I just went by the fact that regular Sora's Magic finishers look all the same as well. Wait, do regular Sora's Magic finishers also do the same damage as the regular magic?

Most of them do. Blizzard is the exception in Final Form, where he basically upgrades his Keyblades to frozen machine guns. Final Form, as far as I know, don't actually do more damage, they only create more instances of the spell.


I mostly agree, but there is one important exception: how do you even DAMAGE Xaldin if you can't get past Aero without using Learn? Anti-Form's attacks are all physical and will simply cause you bounce right off of Aero. At least with the other forms, they can use magic to pierce Aero.

It wears off, but it is difficult to break. The only solution is to abuse one of the Forms with an attack that causes temporary invulnerability (so that the ticks of Aero don't break the animation). An example of this is Wisdom's Quick Run. Half of Final Form's attacks have invulnerability, as well, but is not available just quite yet.


Are you kidding? That's the easy part. I'm talking about the part where says "Hrargh! Take This!" and shoots two giant white lasers that you can use Warp Snipe on. You've got those two white lasers bouncing off the walls and ceiling, AND him shooting at you with his regular attacks, and I just can't follow the white lasers' movements enough to completely avoid them consistently.

I've yet to do anything but run.


But...it's the fact that you CAN'T USE IT in Anti-Form and the fact that you CAN USE IT in three other forms that give those three an advantage over Anti-Form. Even though this isn't KH2FM, Limit Form is imo the best, by the way.

Only for the cool factor. For this, I take the same stance as I do for FFX NTSC and FFX PAL/Int.


Hey come on, you have your fun more than anyone else in the KH forums. And you've killed my fun, and tons of other people's fun on the KH forums, way more than I, or anybody else, has ever done to you. :p
It's not my fault I don't listen to you, is it? :D

Yes, it is. You must rectify this mistake. Expect an unsigned letter of penance soon.