What to expect from me. (I thnk it's ok here, move if need be)

[MJN SEIFER]

I am going to at some point start doing some “theories” I had already thought of long ago, coupled with some new ones (possibly). However, as hinted in previous posts, some of them will already be "disproved hypotheses" (with thanks to Rubah for giving me the correct term (http://forums.eyesonff.com/general-chat/123118-false-evidence-former-evedince-need-correct-term.html)) meaning they have already been proved wrong by new sequels, film versions and Ultimania Guides (which I have not read), but I will show you them so you can read them if you like. I am a fan of looking at theories and articles, including those that have been disproved, I am also a fan of making theories – I just never had the strength to make them in front of people.

Any theory that is no longer eligible to be “correct” will have “DH” in front of the title (for "disproved hypotheses") so you will know I am not trying to spread “false information” – but rather showing you what I initially thought, and what (non-)evidence I had to “prove” it.

For my “new” theories, debate is welcome, but please make it intelligent debates, I am willing to listen to your reasonings as to why you don’t think my theories work, and I will either counter with more evidence to back up claims or add said theory to the DH list. I hope not to get a load of “it’s just a game” and “What are you smoking?” type comments. No offence, but I won’t take peoples arguments seriously if you just make a troll like comment, but if you counter with your evidence, or just make an honest opinion that will be fine.

And if you don’t like theories at all – well, you don’t have to read them.

Looking forward to it. :jess:

[hhr1dluv]

My favorite theory, and it's certainly not something I came up with myself, is that Rikku likes Tidus in a romantic sense throughout FFX, and perhaps even in X-2. She just gives up when she sees that Yuna loves him. I've found fairly convincing evidence on the net, which I can maybe find if people care.

I am a sucker for love triangles. :heart::love:

[BG-57]

The early scene on the boat between Rikku and Tidus certainly made me wonder what might have been had he not been whisked away across the ocean. They certainly have the most similar personalities. The game seems to toy with us that Tidus could gain affection from any of the three female leads, but in the end it just affects some cutscenes and limit breaks.

My most plausible theory is that the GF Eden if FFVIII is actually a mechanical version of a Garden, hence 'Garden of Eden'. She (yes Eden is female) has the same basic ring structure in the upper portions.

Less plausible is that the 'In the Garden Sleeps a Messenger' refers to Diablos sincer his summon is called 'Dark Messenger' and he 'sleeps' in a lamp at Balamb. But it could be just a radom puzzle.

[arcanedude34]

One of my favorite theories involves the identity of Gogo. There's a lot of different theories as to who Gogo really is. Many people believe s/he is Emperor Gestahl, Banon, etc. But my personal favorite theory is that Gogo is Setzer's fallen love, Darill

EDIT: Gogo (Final Fantasy VI)/Identity Speculation - The Final Fantasy Wiki has more Final Fantasy information than Cid could research (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Gogo_(Final_Fantasy_VI)/Identity_Speculation) Spoilers, obviously

[BG-57]

Gogo is the FF equivalent of a Rorschach test: who you think he/she is says more about you than it does about him/her.

I think the answer is since Gogo appears in FFV that he/she is simply a cameo from a previous game, much as Gilgamesh crops up again in FFVIII, FFIX, and FFXII.

[The Man]

Gogo is :rabite:learly Adlai Stevenson.

[The Crystal]

Gogo is Kefka. He used his god powers to create a copy of him(the one destroyed at the end) and disguised himself as Gogo, to spy on the party.
Now that they think Kefka is death, while the real one is still alive and knows all their secrets and weaknesses, this is the perfect moment to attack.

:Eek::Eek::Eek::Eek:

[Wolf Kanno]

Gogo is Kefka. He used his god powers to create a copy of him(the one destroyed at the end) and disguised himself as Gogo, to spy on the party.
Now that they think Kefka is death, while the real one is still alive and knows all their secrets and weaknesses, this is the perfect moment to attack.

:Eek::Eek::Eek::Eek:

Stop giving SE ideas :mad2: Bad Crystal! now VI is going have to get a crappy Compilation as well. Then all the VIII fans will laugh at both the VI and VII fans who looked down on them for years for liking the emo time travel love story. Then they will get all smug that their game now makes more sense but then the VII fans will bring up R=U and then everyone will be sad :(

...except for the IX fans.

I'm also with BG-57, Gogo is strictly a cameo from V with Lone Wolf the Pickpocket.

[The Man]

I have tried, over the months, to convince you people to stop arguing over who Gogo is. Accept the fact that his true identity is Adlai Stevenson, former governor of Illinois and failed Democratic presidential candidate in 1952 and 1956. Here is ALL the proof, and if you need more, you're sick.

Quote #1
I am always amazed by the resistance offered to progress, even the most inocous progress. Imagine, if you will, jumping from one rickety bridge to another, with blind men running back and forth trying to push you off, and you will have some idea what legislating progress is like. The good news is that if you're pushed off, you can always climb back up and try again.
- from his book What I Think

Quote #2
I suppose I could wear a hat, but them my teeth would fall out to spite me. I could get false ones, but doubtless then I would get fat just to prove my teeth work. The easiest course is to drape my whole body in robes and shawls and hope no one recognizes my eyes.
- Commenting about his baldness to an NBC reporter in 1952.

Quote #3
President Eisenhower continues to amaze me. He appears to be an ungainly and graceless man, but when [senator Robert] Taft makes a move, no matter how ridiculous, Eisenhower copies it with the skill of [French mime] Marcel Merceau. I haven't achieved such levels of mimicry with my own party, but I'm working on it.
- 1952 interview

Quote #4
The legislature is a frightening thing. To this day the state capitol building seems to me a beast ready to swallow me up; the very walls and ceilings seem to crush you as you walk through it.
- from his book Friends and Enemies

Quote #5
Today we are plunged into a battle that is familliar to us. the enemies and the problems are the same. But the terrain is different. The world around us has changed and shifted so much we no longer recognize it.
- Giving a speech at Charlottesville, 1960

Experience Egg
Stevenson's ex-wife once wrote a book about him called The Egghead and I. In 1952, one of his campaign slogans was "Stevenson - The Experienced Candidate."

When you first meet Gogo, he says "I have been idle for too long," possibly referring to the fact that Stevenson had been dead for 30 years when FF6 came out.

A number of years ago a bill was passed regarding the transfer of funds among government-owned, government-operated (GOGO) laboratories. What was the name of this bill? The STEVENSON-Wydler Act, of course.

NOW are you convinced?

[GameMasta]

Theory: Cloud's hair has a mind of it's own, and an evil mind at that!

It is said that Cloud's hair actually controlled Sephiroth, who would control Cloud so that the hair could drain Cloud's soul more easily! All the hair desires is to rule the world (typical, I know...)

VII fans are still waiting for a game that will finally prove whether this theory is true or not.

[MJN SEIFER]

hhr1dluv, I can see what you mean about Tidus and Rikku - it would certanly make sense, and the two of them could work.

arcanedude34 and The Man, I haven't studdied Gogo yet, so don't have any particular theories on his identity, I have proof he is not Daryl though. And I have heard the Adlai Stevenson stuff before. Love it, never gets old.


Most of my theories will be looking deeper into things, suposed hidden meanings and "hints". Stuff like that. Remember though; some of these have already been proven wrong - at least suposedly. That is what the "DH" marking will before.

This is not to seek attention, well not much. I would like my theories to be read, of course I understand if you don't like them.

They won't be written here (in case you all thought they would) but rather, they will be in their appropriate forums (e.g. if it is for FFV - it will be in the FFV forum.)

[blackmage_nuke]

Are you atleast going to link them in this thread?

And i dont think the Tidus and Rikku pairing wouldve worked. Final Fantasy pairings are usually done with people who are pretty much opposites or atleast not very alike, not people who have similar personalities. Not saying this has to be the definite case, just that its generally like that.

[BG-57]

My view on in-game hints is that they are generally not that subtle, like Squall's parents or Realm's father. If the games want to show connections between characters there are generally such strong hints that you could consider them essentially canonical. It's part of the reason I don't subscribe to theories like R=U and their kin, simply because although they are possible, that's not the same as probable.

I don't think different personalities are essential to working relationships, although they are generally more interesting in fiction. I'm reminded of a scene in Bridget Jones' Diary that took the alike couples to a hilarious extreme. I'm not unhappy about Yuna and Tidus, I just disliked that the affection rating gave the illusion that you had a hand in affecting the romantic relationships.

[MJN SEIFER]

My view on in-game hints is that they are generally not that subtle, like Squall's parents or Realm's father. If the games want to show connections between characters there are generally such strong hints that you could consider them essentially canonical. It's part of the reason I don't subscribe to theories like R=U and their kin, simply because although they are possible, that's not the same as probable.


I think it depends on the writers (not just of Games but Books, TV shows, Films) some of them (probably) do put subtle things into thieir storylines - I certantly would if I was makng a game (or whatever). I am not saying that Square are like this, but this is just how I have interperetted some parts of the game (or previously did - "DH" again). Note: at least on of my Theories is a "?=U" theory, but thankfully for you it is one of my DH theories.



Are you atleast going to link them in this thread?

I might do. But bare in mind I would like the replies to be in the threads them selves. But if the admins allow me to I shall link them here. (Also bare in mind this site seams to dislike threads being "revived" so if I create/post a theory long after this thread "dies" I won't be able to link it.)

[BG-57]

I was taking it as given that we were talking about about the FF series, not other media, although I accept other SE tie-ins as canon (like Ultimania and AC).

[MJN SEIFER]

I was taking it as given that we were talking about about the FF series, not other media, although I accept other SE tie-ins as canon (like Ultimania and AC).

We are talking about the FF Series. I mentioned "other media" as an umbrella term to point out that some writers probably do put subtle things in (and Square may or may not be one of them).

All my theories on this board will be (for now) be FF related as this is an FF forum, and I need to keep on topic.

[BG-57]

For what it's worth I agree with you. But that's not proof in of itself.

At any rate, another thing I've noticed that the Ultima Weapon in FFVIII carries a sword that looks identical to Cloud's Ultima Weapon sword. My conclusion is since the FFVII Ultima Weapon drops Cloud's Ultima Weapon, it could follow that the FFVIII Ultima Weapon simply carries it's own version of the sword into battle instead of merely dropping it. Many FFs have both the UW monster and sword. There are many convoluted ways to explain how it could be the same sword, but I find them doubtful.

On a side note I've been tempted to break out my ArtFX UW action figure just to give the sword to my Cloud action figure. I'd bet it'd look cool. :cool:

[Lacarus]

Well, they do look very much alike, but then again, Ultima and Omega Weapon always share the same colour scheme and look, and VIII's Ultima Weapon carrying as sword that looks like Cloud's Ultima Weapon could just be a cameo just like XII's Gilgamesh carrying Tidus', Squall's, Odin's and Cloud's swords. Although these are fakes.

[Wolf Kanno]

I fall into BG-57's camp in that SE never leaves clever subtle hints. Most of the time its really obvious. From Squall and Laguna being related to the obnoxious not so subtle hints X-2 has that connects X to the VII world. I don't feel FF games are really created to leave mystery. Even VII's cliffhanger ending is spoiled by its epilogue that strongly suggested everyone survived.

There are certain philosophical lessons one can gleam from the series that are carefully placed in the background; but I don't think SE goes out of its way to hide secrets like R=U or the FF worlds all being interconnected. Especially since several clues people find to make their theories correct always seem to be looking too much into an artistic showboating sequence or are obviously taking information out of context to support their bias.

Just looking back on most of the plots in the series, the games have always been made to be stand alone titles; so most plot elements are always tied up and those that are not tend to have little significance. Its because of this consistency in the series that I find it highly unlikely that SE writes in ambiguous secrets that only die hard fans will discover. It just all reminds me of the episode in American Dad where the father is searching for the lost treasure in his basement.

Granted its fun to debate some theories and come up with them.

[BG-57]

Well, they do look very much alike, but then again, Ultima and Omega Weapon always share the same colour scheme and look, and VIII's Ultima Weapon carrying as sword that looks like Cloud's Ultima Weapon could just be a cameo just like XII's Gilgamesh carrying Tidus', Squall's, Odin's and Cloud's swords. Although these are fakes.

That's what I was thinking. They are esentially palette swapped versions from the same model. FFVIII overused palette swapping, especially with Bahamut and Tiamat; the latter is usually portrayed as a mutli-headed dragon.


I fall into BG-57's camp in that SE never leaves clever subtle hints. Most of the time its really obvious. From Squall and Laguna being related to the obnoxious not so subtle hints X-2 has that connects X to the VII world. I don't feel FF games are really created to leave mystery. Even VII's cliffhanger ending is spoiled by its epilogue that strongly suggested everyone survived.

There are certain philosophical lessons one can gleam from the series that are carefully placed in the background; but I don't think SE goes out of its way to hide secrets like R=U or the FF worlds all being interconnected. Especially since several clues people find to make their theories correct always seem to be looking too much into an artistic showboating sequence or are obviously taking information out of context to support their bias.

Just looking back on most of the plots in the series, the games have always been made to be stand alone titles; so most plot elements are always tied up and those that are not tend to have little significance. Its because of this consistency in the series that I find it highly unlikely that SE writes in ambiguous secrets that only die hard fans will discover. It just all reminds me of the episode in American Dad where the father is searching for the lost treasure in his basement.

Granted its fun to debate some theories and come up with them.

You put it better than I could.

One world for all the games is impossible, at minimum there are at least three: Spira, Gaia, and Ivalice. Even that is stretching it. Interestingly enough, the proof that Ivalice and Gaia are separate worlds comes from FFT: Cloud's little appearance is explained as traveling through space, not time.

[Lacarus]

That's what I was thinking. They are esentially palette swapped versions from the same model. FFVIII overused palette swapping, especially with Bahamut and Tiamat; the latter is usually portrayed as a mutli-headed dragon.


VIII didn't have much palette swapping compared to other FF's, only what you mentioned, blue and green Galbaldian soldiers, Behemoth and Catoblepas, Griever and Diablos who shared the same skeleton and of course the weapons. In VII, X and XII for example, had many of the same monster types, X got around this, though, with the Arena. I'd say VIII had the most original monsters than otehr FF's, maybe except IX.

[BG-57]

I liked the monster designs in FFVIII, but repainting Bahamut as Tiamat was just plain lazy.

[Lacarus]

Maybe, but Bahamut and Tiamat has much in common. Both dragons and both GF's, however Ultimicia changed him into a monster. I think it's intentional that they share same design.

[Wolf Kanno]

Historically speaking... Bahamut is suppose to be a giant fish but that's just semantics at this point. ;)

They pulled the same thing in FFIV. Both Bahamut and Tiamat were simply palette swapped versions of each other.

[BG-57]

Lets not even go there with Shiva. :p

[Wolf Kanno]

Like the fact Shiva is traditionally a man and has more of an association with fire than ice? ;)

[BG-57]

Perish the thought. :greenie:

[MJN SEIFER]

For what it's worth I agree with you. But that's not proof in of itself.



I fall into BG-57's camp in that SE never leaves clever subtle hints. Most of the time its really obvious. From Squall and Laguna being related to the obnoxious not so subtle hints X-2 has that connects X to the VII world. I don't feel FF games are really created to leave mystery. Even VII's cliffhanger ending is spoiled by its epilogue that strongly suggested everyone survived.

I can see what you both mean. I personally think the only way we'll know for sure is if Square actually says they leave subtle hints - or they don't. For now it's up to debate and everyone has an opinion including me, but I accept I may be wrong (Note: I say "may be" because I still hang on to a minor hope that I am right - not because I am arrogant, because I am not). (To Wolf Kanno only: I never really concidered VII's ending to be a "clifhanger" - more evidence on how two people can see the same thing differently)


There are certain philosophical lessons one can gleam from the series that are carefully placed in the background; but I don't think SE goes out of its way to hide secrets like R=U or the FF worlds all being interconnected. Especially since several clues people find to make their theories correct always seem to be looking too much into an artistic showboating sequence or are obviously taking information out of context to support their bias.

Granted its fun to debate some theories and come up with them.

I think the main reason I like to assume Square (and indead other makers) are like this is because this what I would do if I made (for example) an RPG. Of course, I would have the main stuff obvious, but I would provide "hints" as well.


VIII didn't have much palette swapping compared to other FF's, only what you mentioned, blue and green Galbaldian soldiers, Behemoth and Catoblepas, Griever and Diablos who shared the same skeleton and of course the weapons. In VII, X and XII for example, had many of the same monster types, X got around this, though, with the Arena. I'd say VIII had the most original monsters than otehr FF's, maybe except IX.

Funnily enough, it never really occured to me that many of VII's monsters where the same albeit a different colour scheme. Despite the fact many NPCs looked identical - I always asumed that the mosters where all "related" - like how you can have many breads of the same animal, and it was all deliberate move to have them look similar, but looking back - it probably was Square reusing sprites.

However it's funny the Tiamat stuff was mentioned in a thread in which I admited to having theories...:p

[BG-57]

I think everyone has theories about their favorite games, it's proving it that's the challenge. Any good theory in science is falsifiable, that is, can be proven false. I hold game theories to similar standards. If someone proposes a theory (myself included) is their job to prove their idea right, not for someone else to prove them wrong.

Palette swapping goes all back to beginning of the series. The question is was it to save on work or was there a deeper reason. A few years ago I actually suggested (tongue in cheek) a B=T theory, since it is technically possible that Bahamut could have been corrupted in the future by Ultimecia into Tiamat. Both do use similar attacks (Mega Flare vs Dark Flare). But in the end I doubt it simply because Tiamat has been protrayed in most previous FFs as a different being from Bahamut (and usually with more than one head).

[Wolf Kanno]

I think the main reason I like to assume Square (and indead other makers) are like this is because this what I would do if I made (for example) an RPG. Of course, I would have the main stuff obvious, but I would provide "hints" as well.


I do it myself in my own stories but when you are making a financial medium you have to keep your audience in mind; so sometimes you have to subdue your artistic integrity for the sake of clarity. If marketing tells you your audience is "dumb as a box of rocks", you have to write with that audience in mind. Lord knows film and games are the worst offenders when it comes to underestimating its audience.

I don't necessarily disavow all theories, my issue with something like R=U is that its a major plot element that really changes the dynamics of the story. To have its revelation be left to a few questionable moments seems highly unlikely and that's something I feel most supporters fail to explain is how such a major element was presented in a way where most players would miss it. Laguna and Squall's connection is still missed by many people who play the title and its presentation in the story is less subtle than what the R=U supporters present as evidence. Its the overall impact the theory has on the storyline that discredits it in my mind. Its like if VII wrote out the revelation of Zack in VII while still implying his importance. You know Cloud based his personality on another SOLDIER but the game never mentions it was Zack at all. A lot would be lost in the plot.

Now theories involving unexplained elements I don't mind as long as they don't seem too far fetched. I have a few theories of my own for a few of my fave FFs. ;)

[MJN SEIFER]

Hey everyone, I realize this may count as reviving, which I apologize for in advance, but I would also like to apoologize for the fact that I posted this thread ages ago and have not done the theories yet. Well that is because other things in my life keep getting in the way (I realize I'm the last person on EoFF anyone expects to have a life, but believe it or not I do.) and when I do got time I spend it on other projects, but I have a Word for my theories now, and they will be posted I just have dificulty knowing which one to do, remember they will have DH on the front if they have been proved wrong.

If an admin closes this for being old I'll create a new thread for links.

[McLovin']

Best Theory: FFX Spira is responsible for discovering Gaia (FF7) thanks to Shinra.

[BG-57]

I think that's pretty much canon, although (like Star Trek V) one that most fans would prefer wasn't. It was a lazily constructed throwaway moment. No attempt was made to logically tie the two worlds together in any consistency.