Is Vayne Solidor evil?

[the AJman]

I thought this would be an interesting topic, I have heared people say before that they don't consider Vayne to be evil, and some say that he isn't really the main antaganist. I though a debate about whether he is evil or not would be interesting, so here it is.

I know I usually take a back seat in most of the topics I make, but this time I think I'll play a slightly bigger part, so I'll start off.

I personally believe Vayne is evil, as evil as any power hungry dictator can be. I believe the difference between Vayne and someone like Ex-Death is that Vayne constantly justifies his actions to the characters in the game. Vayne is a villian that doesn't at all see himself as a villian or a bad guy. This gives the impression that what he is doing is for the good of mankind, but the methods he uses to achieve his goals are certainly less than noble.

So the floor is open.

[Kawaii Ryûkishi]

I was willing to accept that Vayne might have been ambiguously righteous right up until he started screaming and turned into a giant hulked-out demon monster at the end.

[Quindiana Jones]

That's a dead giveaway, really.

[Marky Tee]

i think he was on a noble and righteous quest

[Namelessfengir]

he was the second coming and morons ended him before his work was complete!!!! the end is nigh!!!!!!!!

[Cyric]

He looks almost identical to Laguna Loire....

[Marky Tee]

lol i had never noticed that efore

[Namelessfengir]

lol i had never noticed that before

.... you didn't???? :confused:

[Bolivar]

I put it like this: if you think the main point of a Yasumi Matsuno game is that there is no black & white, then you are a Matsuno character stuck inside one of his games.

Nearly all of the Ivalice stories chronicle how the protagonists are able to rise above and transcend the moral ambiguity that dominates their setting.

I suppose you could argue that Vayne is simply a product of the harsh environment he is apart of. And he obviously does believe in the strong have the will to power type philosophy of power politics, and that he thinks that is best. But being caught up in that is his sin, he's unable to see through the fog on his blind quest for power.

It's really sad at the end when you see all the characters when they're younger and you think about how they were to become or the things that would happen to them

[Depression Moon]

It's really sad at the end when you see all the characters when they're younger and you think about how they were to become or the things that would happen to them

Younger? I don't remember that. I thought it showed them maybe a few months later.


I was willing to accept that Vayne might have been ambiguously righteous right up until he started screaming and turned into a giant hulked-out demon monster <noscript>&lt;span class=&quot;spoiler&quot;&gt; started screaming and turned into a giant hulked-out demon monster&lt;/span&gt;</noscript> at the end.

:lol:

[Shattered Dreamer]

To be honest I don't think evil really fits Vayne he struck me as more misguided a guy so caught up in his own ambition he fails to see the right and wrong in a situation, an egomaniac!

[Sefie1999AD]

I didn't really consider Vayne to be the main villain until you raid Bahamut. "Misguided" would probably describe him better than "evil". I forgot, did he commit any major atrocities during the game?

[Marky Tee]

.... you didn't????


nope sorry aha

he kinda reminded me of Cao Pi from dynasty warriors 5 a little bit though

[DarkMateria]

I didn't really consider Vayne to be the main villain until you raid Bahamut. "Misguided" would probably describe him better than "evil". I forgot, did he commit any major atrocities during the game?

I believe he ordered the judges to destryo Mt. Bur-omisace and kill the grand kiltias. Sounds like an atrocity to me.

[black orb]

I personally believe Vayne is evil, as evil as any power hungry dictator can be.
Vayne constantly justifies his actions to the characters in the game.

Vayne is a villian that doesn't at all see himself as a villian or a bad guy.

This gives the impression that what he is doing is for the good of mankind, but the methods he uses to achieve his goals are certainly less than noble..
>>> Dude, thats the worst kind of evil.
Vayne is like a handsome version of Adolf Hitler..

[Sefie1999AD]

I believe he ordered the judges to destryo Mt. Bur-omisace and kill the grand kiltias. Sounds like an atrocity to me.

Ah, yeah. I thought something like that happened in the game. It definitely made the Empire seem more "evil", though there's another interesting point as well. I always thought Archades was a fascinating city, and visiting the city showed me that even if the Empire is evil, that doesn't mean their citizens are.

[DarkMateria]

Yeah, that is a good point, i noticed that too, the citizens seem like ordinary, if not snobbish people. I don't think the empire is "evil" like most people, they have their own views and ways of doing things. Some other coutries think america is evil, it's all your point of view. We have also comitted some atrocities that i think are pretty damn bad.(Hiroshima)

[Marky Tee]

Vayne is like a handsome version of Adolf Hitler..

i dnt think he was quite that bad

[Skyblade]

Quoting myself from a previous thread:


Actually, Vayne's duplicitous nature in his political dealings surfaces long before the speech in Rabanastre. Have you guys forgotten his performance for Reks? He made an extremely well crafted act that would allow him to kill a monarch and claim total sovereignty over a kingdom, with a minimum amount of the blame falling on himself. He was, after all, merely bringing a regicide to justice and stepping in to bring order to a country that had lost its ruler. He then has Marquis Ondore announce the death of Princess Ashelia in another excellent ploy to both solidify his own position and undercut his opponents. Ashe is cut off from her birthright, being unable to reclaim her crown without proof, Marquis Ondore can be blackmailed into silence, and Vayne can gain control of Dalmasca with a minimum of friction, since there are supposedly no surviving members of its royal family. He then moves in to become consul of Rabanastre, a move which he admits he had to wait for much longer than he had wanted. This allows him to give a lovely speech to win over the people of Rabanastre (and during that entire speech, I was thinking "wow, this guy knows how to play up to a crowd") and lure the Resistance into a trap. His next political moves are towards the Gran Kiltias, who becomes a threat, since he had the power to confirm Ashe's identity, pass information on to the Rozzarians and to Larsa, and shelter a good many of his enemies. So he has his forces move on Mount Bur-Omisace and kill the Gran Kiltias and reclaim Larsa. His entire career from the beginning has been filled with acts of treachery and cunning. He uses political maneuverings to divide his foes and weaken their support systems, while strengthing his own power base. His actions at home are much the same. First he kills his older brothers, then his father. He places the blame for his father's death on the Senators, the only real opponents to his power left in Archadia, thus removing them from the playing field and securing power for himself. While I have not yet finished the game (I'm heading to the Draklor Laboratories after the death of the Gran Kiltias), even at this point I have yet to see any action by Vayne that is not an attempt to increase his own power base. He didn't suddenly become a villain, he has quite clearly been one from the very beginning.

Where do you get "good guy" from any of that?

Oh, and I have gotten further in the game, and he has yet to become any less villainous.

[Namelessfengir]

this runs along the same lines as my sig. logical and ruthless he probably could have talked his way out of anything if he hadnt turned into a giant critter

[Big D]

Vayne was 'evil' from the moment he started using violence to usurp both nations and individuals. He was willing to have a lot of innocent people killed, including his truly righteous compatriots like the noble Judge Drace, which lands him firmly in 'villain' territory.

[The Unknown Guru]

Ooh. A place to express my views. *drools*

SPOILERS THROUGHOUT. You have been warned.

Ok, here's the rub: Vayne's motivations are quite justified. It's just that his methods are screwed up. All he really wanted was to free humanity from the control of the Occurians. He just had to go through a lot of obstacles to accomplish this goal, and he certainly didn't mess around. That's the issue: whether his motivations or his methods determine his 'evilness'. I personally think it's his methods. Slaughtering a community of refugees is definitely an evil act. Framing someone for killing a king is an evil act. Actions, not purposes, define good and evil.

However, there is one variable: Venat. It is completely an open question as to whether Venat is evil or not. All that's definite is that he opposes the Occurians' mucking about with the mortal realm AND tapping into his power drives you insane. It's rather obvious that Venat is the source of Vayne's motivation, but whether it was Venat's influence or Vayne's own decision to commit evil acts is open to interpretation.

Basically, it all depends on your definition of evil. I think he was evil because I define evil by actions taken. You might think differently. Any interpretation is equally valid.

[Skyblade]

Vayne's "motivations", as far as I can tell, are world domination. He may be freeing the world from the Occuria's tyranny, but he's not exactly planning on relinquishing his world-wide empire once he does that. He may be fighting against bad guys, but that does not automatically make him a good guy, or give him good motivations.

[Big D]

But by "freeing the world from the Occuria's tyranny", all he's really doing is letting the Occuria use him (and his power and greed) as a tool for their own in-fighting.

[Omni-Odin]

I love this argument!!! Vayne is evil. He is a warrior turned politician. He spent his life working for a goal of power. The fact that he has a loving little brother eludes to him being a caring individual. It's when he came to true power that he had politicians whispering in his ear about what to do (Cidolfus Demen Bunansa) and how to retain that power. The true evil is Venat, but for every gun, there is a bullet to act through and that happened to be Vayne.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm a bit with The Unknown Guru on this, but only as far as to say it depends on your personal interpretation of morality and what constitutes as good and evil.

As someone with what you would call a "flexible sense of morality" I can't say Vayne is really evil, despite allowing action that resulted in the death of many; its difficult to argue against the fact that the world is a better place because of him. He masterminded the defeat of the Occurians and left the political situation of Archades in a state that would allow the moderate and peace loving Larsa to do as he pleases unmolested by the more hard line members of the Ministry of Law and the power hungry Senate.

I could only imagine how his actions may have inadvertently caused great political reform in Rozzario as well. Vayne's actions saved Archades and to some extent the world, regardless of whether his intention was to do so. This is something you really can't say about any other antagonist in the series.

Personally though, this does bring me up to one of the few story issues I did have about Vayne. Playing through the title, I really felt as if Vayne purposely did everything for the benefit of Archades and Larsa. His actions and his methods always struck me as an act. Like he purposely chose to play the role of the megalomaniac in order to set up Larsa as the new ruler. He removes his political enemies; and despite several attempts to thwart his plans, Vayne never seems to try and stop Larsa's movements or even kill him considering Larsa is his only remaining political rival. We know Vayne has it in him to do it so why doesn't he?

Larsa is definetly headstrong and intelligent but its obvious his naivety would always allow his political enemies to get the better of him, whereas Vayne is already a veteran of the political system and has the will to do what he knows his innocent brother could not lest he become just like himself. I really feel Vayne tried not only to protect Larsa's innocence and good nature but also to nurture his sense of justice (it should be noted that the Solidor family has deep ties with the Ministry of Law) and conviction by playing the role of the tyrant villain.

I really felt the writer intended for Vayne to be a tragic hero, but something happened in the production (like the mastermind of the project quitting) and the writer decided to write him as the atypical JRPG villain during the last battle. Its this last battle that smurfs up my reasoning cause Vayne basically does become a power hungry "god complex" villain with characteristics that are completely unfamilair of anything we've seen. We're talking smooth and calculating villain suddenly becoming like Kefka or Kuja literally between a cutscene and there is an inconsistency with the rest of the script concerning this. Throw in the fact that the whole final dungeon and last battle comes off really forced and unpolished. The whole thing reeks of a rush job in my opinion.

At least this is just my original view of him. I need to replay the game eventually to freshen my memory. Overall, I don't feel Vayne is evil but I can't say he's good either. Its why I have a difficult time saying he's a villain, he's more like an antagonist.

[oddler]

Vayne Solidor was lawful evil. :)

[Future Esthar]

What about Raithwall guys?
If Vayne is evil then it would no less make sence that Raithwall is because with the help of the Ocurria he created an empire.But since "O my God,Ashe(hero) is his descendant and is good and Dalmasca are such poor guys" the guy is seen as some hero.

Of course this made the people think that the Ocurrians are gods and Venat was somekind of a Lucifer.(duh)

In fact I don´t believe they are fighting ever.They are dumbing people to achieve higher power.

Vayne is evil but not the true villain of FFXII (we also fight Venat in the end isn´t it? Not just Vayne).

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't think anyone is really saying Raithwall wasn't bad. Hell, the journey Lady Ashe takes practically reveals that the Dynast-King was nothing more than a puppet to the Occurians not to mention the overwhelming power of the Nethicite we see in the game sorta changes any ideas of a benevolent victory he may have. I'm pretty certain Raithwall wiped out his rivals with overwhelming force, killing innumerable people, and creating an empire based on fear.

I did wish we had a chance to really learn more about the Occurians though.

[Future Esthar]

The Occurians are not Gods but the souls of a single man.
This man is the True villain of FFXII.

I think Lord Larsa already realized who is this Villain.

[Wolf Kanno]

Please... not this again...

[Skyblade]

The Occurians are not Gods but the souls of a single man.
This man is the True villain of FFXII.

I think Lord Larsa already realized who is this Villain.

Yes, this villain is Future Esthar/Serapy, just as he is in every other forum.

[Future Esthar]

I am not serapy

[Skyblade]

Sorry, wasn't meaning to imply that. It was more of an either/or thing.

[The Unknown Guru]

I really felt the writer intended for Vayne to be a tragic hero, but something happened in the production (like the mastermind of the project quitting) and the writer decided to write him as the atypical JRPG villain during the last battle. Its this last battle that smurfs up my reasoning cause Vayne basically does become a power hungry "god complex" villain with characteristics that are completely unfamilair of anything we've seen. We're talking smooth and calculating villain suddenly becoming like Kefka or Kuja literally between a cutscene and there is an inconsistency with the rest of the script concerning this. Throw in the fact that the whole final dungeon and last battle comes off really forced and unpolished. The whole thing reeks of a rush job in my opinion.

I always thought this was because he fully embraces Venat's power. He's cornered by the party, so he taps into Venat's power. He doesn't realize he wouldn't be able to handle it, so he goes insane. That's just my interpretation, though.

[Future Esthar]

I allways felt the main heros were supposed to fail their quest if it weren´t for the subtle influence of more humble persons (Vaan,Penelo,Dalan,etc...).
If weren´t for them Ashe would be dead,Bach would die with people blaming him forever,Larsa would not become emperor and nethicite would win over.
Because they were destined to.
Only something from the ghostly realm could change timeline.~
They would follow the destiny writed for them from the gods laughing on they heavenly abode.
(Pay close attention to this last words).

[Wolf Kanno]

I always thought this was because he fully embraces Venat's power. He's cornered by the party, so he taps into Venat's power. He doesn't realize he wouldn't be able to handle it, so he goes insane. That's just my interpretation, though.

If memory serves me correct, Vayne never mentions anything about becoming the Dynast-King until the last battle. He literally goes from trying to teach Larsa and being very composed in the cutscene proceeding your party entering Sky Fortress Bahamut; to suddenly " I'm the next Dynast-King!!! Suck on that Biatches!!! Larsa? Who the smurf is that? VAYNE SMASH!!!"

I felt the personality change and motive change was a bit too drastic. I'm not saying that Vayne never intended for world domination and this is proof it was added in (though I do believe this) but rather I just want to point out the inconsistency and poor writing. I just don't feel the story foreshadowed his true intentions well enough, otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion. ;)

[Future Esthar]

This is not to meant Ashe or others weren´t heros.Of course they were.They overcome darkness on the decisions they had to take.

[qwertysaur]

I don't think he was evil like the other FF villains, but he was no saint either. Especially with his killing his father and two older brothers.

I think he did want world domination as time went on, just not through the occurian but his own strength. Remember he was planning on attacking Rozarria after fighting the resistance. His insanity at the end felt like a last ditch effort.

[Wolf Kanno]

You know, I always feel its unfair to nail him with taking out his brother's cause the game never said these were innocent or saint like. For all we know (and most likely) these guys were like Vayne and plotting to kill each other anyway so I can't really count this as a crime. Especially considering how common it is in real history.

[Skyblade]

So it's ok for one plotter to kill another plotter? Man, that would simplify politics so much. Just hand each one a sword and give the world to whomever came out on top.

Just because Vayne slaughtered bad guys as well as good guys and innocents, that does not make him a noble character. It just makes him an equal-opportunity psychopath.

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't necessarily feel he's a psychopath. Though I agree he isn't exactly a hero but he has noble ambitions and whose to say he would be a bad ruler? Several rulers in our own history murdered their way to the top and followed it up with the complete execution of their political enemies and they are regarded as great men and woman who changed their nations for the better. Whose to say Vayne wouldn't be the same, I don't remember him talking about turning Dalmasca or Nalbina into the FF version of the Congo. :p

[The Space Pope]

As another poster said, it almost feels as if Vayne was trying to protect Larsa from becoming the ruler with an iron fist that Vayne felt he had to be. Larsa openly defied him and the worst Vayne did in return was talk down to him rather than icing him as he did his two other brothers. The fact that he did that on top of killing his father does not make him evil IMO, since this has been done in real life for thousands of years for a myriad of reasons and has oftentimes helped the masses at large.

I will say that what he did to the refugees was definitely a "villain" move, but he really did want to save his people. He almost kinda felt like Bush with the "either you're with us or against us" attitude, so to me he came off more of a pompous egomaniac than some sort of evil mastermind.

As for what he did with Judge Drace, he was merely trying to test Gabranth's loyalty, another common happening in our history.

[drotato]

He's not evil! He's just a little confused. Poor thing. D:

[Resonate]

It didnt take me too long in combat against him to realize that he wasn't my friend.

[Rhosius]

What makes a person bad or evil. What makes bad or evil is in the eye of the beholder.

Also, can you really say even Adolf Hitler or any other person is "evil"? Yes, i do acknowledge that he killed numerous counts of innocent people. And i know he experimented on others too. But can you really say he is evil?
I know he did horrible things. Yeah, he should not have blamed others for his country's failings, and he should not have tried to conquer half the world, and he should not have killed all those people. But, can you really say he is evil?

He only tried restore his country's honor and power.(At first, or so i believe.) He tried to help his country at first(i believe), but instead,he took everything to a radical extreme, once he saw he could gain massive power and control. Like people say, power corrupts. And along with that, money is the root of all evil, as this whole war may not have happened if Germany was not in such debt.

That's my opinion anyway. That's why i won't say Vayne is evil or not.