Writing

[Vice Nebulosa]

Greetings, Servants of the Mountain (“the mountain”, of course, represented here by “EoFF” ;) ). This is Vice Nebulosa speaking. Since the boards seem to lack an obvious “introductions” forum (that, or I have failed miserably in the search for one <_< >_>), I will have this thread serve the dual purposes of brief initial greetings and discussion of a legitimate topic. In general, I am a prospective novelist residing on some incredibly scenic lakefront property in prairie Canada. I have just recently completed an . . . interesting but overall unpleasant thirteen-year internment at a nearby small-town school (including kindergarten, mates), and am currently preparing to nicely wrap up book one of my inaugural two-book series, and to commence my first year of university education at summer’s end (I know; purportedly a Bachelor of Arts majoring in English is a “worthless degree”, but I will conduct my own failures, if failures they must be =\). It is an unusual period in my existence in terms of the fairly even ratio of “things ending” to “things poised to begin”.

Anyway, verbosity aside, I am actually seeking to join a message board that meets both of the following criteria: 1) does not require much effort to be placed in the literary quality of my writing – I can simply talk, with as little inhibition as possible, beyond the basic courtesy conventions, and 2) is populated at least to some extent by an intelligent, somewhat laid-back membership. As is my wont, I have spent a brief time poring over some of the recent discussion history on these boards, silently observing the membership, etc. The members Wolf Konno and Psychotic, in particular, seem to be intriguing individuals (and I am certain that had I researched the matter further, numerous other members could be referenced similarly), and the forum overall, while large, seems quite well structured and is aesthetically pleasing. More importantly, though (and this has been a concern of mine since my days at a previous message board where it became a rather large issue), these boards seem to lack an obvious “overlord” (a member – not necessarily staff – who, due to popularity or personality, acquires dominance over all discussion and becomes a caricature for the reverence of the remaining membership, willingly or not), and I am pleased that nothing of that nature seems to have occurred here. With that, I offer greetings all ‘round; see you on the boards.

Right; legitimate discussion time. Do note that I was indulging a recent Within Temptation craving while writing this, so anything that seems inordinately (or even awkwardly) dramatic can likely be attributed to this. *Laugh*

I am feeling suddenly despondent about the entire writing process lately. If anyone who bothered with the overly lengthy above paragraphs is still patiently following my words around, you will recall that I am a writer (fantasy-fiction is officially my genre, but its style and philosophical undertones are carefully tailored to something more original than your typical “swords and sorcery” tale), and I fully expect book one to be completed before two months have elapsed. In my search for a suitable message board on which to periodically “unwind” my creative energies, I came across one dedicated specifically to discussing the composition and publishing of science/fantasy fiction, and by the end of my half-hour-or-so search of the main corridors of the place, I came away utterly disgusted, and felt that the sensation should be given no more dignified burial than to be dropped into the oblivion of sleep, perhaps to rise up from the chasm in the morning as a slightly humbler creature. No such luck, however. It seems that I briefly glimpsed a monster whose fangs were destined to rest in my throat anyway, and I may just as well become accustomed to the blood loss. Evidently they call the creature “the publishing business”. It is aptly named (as “business rather than “art”), as “art” seems to be entirely absent from the writing process once a mainstream editor places his/her butcher’s hands on your work, and soundly proceeds to demand that you, the writer, perform an elaborate dance on command, altering, rewriting, removing for convenience, simplifying for ease of reading, etc., eventually yielding a product that vaguely resembles your intended original.

Now, granted, I have not yet attempted to publish my own work professionally, I will not comprehend the true intricacies of the business until I see it in action, and have not been forced to watch my own work undergo a businessman’s metamorphosis, but until/if I do, other prospective writers offer the next best perspective at the moment, and it is unpleasant to hear, to say the least. It is a dangerous thing, methinks, to have the gates of an unbelievably diverse field of human artistry overseen by the individual prejudices of jaded watchmen, to the extent that one must search at length for the right personality, not the right publisher. This leads to that most repulsive of all possible phrases: “it is not what you do, but who you know”. ~_~ Granted, editors may have legitimate criticisms, and may genuinely be out to improve the quality and clarity of your novel, but once the author’s original intentions for the tone and style of the piece begin to undergo corruption, it has gone entirely too far, and it seems to me that the editor in question no longer deserves the privilege of handling the artwork. And yet, it is clearly the writers in this business who are the beggars, because the field is a competitive one, and only those with the biggest swords (see: subservience to cultural trends) are given first dibs on survival.

Most gallingly, the members of the site discussed the profound importance of numerical figures. “140 000 words too long for first novel”, “no publisher will touch anything lower than 80 000 words or higher than 120 000 words for an untested, first-time writer”, “how long should I make my first novel?” and the like. To my slight comfort, there still remained a few members on the boards who pointed out that, provided the novel in question is good enough, length is irrelevant. This is the principle to which I have always stuck in terms of my view of the publishing business, and I have striven only to construct the best plot and characters that I am currently capable of; the rest comes later. Note that my novel, at the door of the finale, stands at 191 000 words, likely to reach 210 000 or so by the end of things. The idea that a publisher may simply punch up the statistics on the wordcount – the damned wordcount; what could possibly be more irrelevant to the quality of a piece of literature? But then, the word “revenue” tends to override life itself in the current society – and refuse to even read any further on the basis that it is “too long for a first novel” is utterly repugnant. Certainly there are exceptions – a writing prodigy may produce a 250 000 word page-turner and receive publishing rights – but then the trick becomes locating a person, not a company, who knows the particular kind of brilliance being showcased when they see it. And you know, reading over my current leisure-time reading material (“The Poisonwood Bible”, by Barbara Kingsolver), I actually caught myself wondering, in this foul mood, about how many words the book contained; about whether the scene I was currently reading had been altered by an editor so as to be “more accessible for mainstream audiences”, etc. Suffice it to say that I refrained from reading any further until the mood had somewhat dissipated.

For the moment, I intend to finish book one, research the hell out of the publishing business, begin work on book two, and become acclimatized to university existence before I dedicate myself more fully to actually publishing the series. It should also be noted that I have no intention of “earning my living” on writing alone; the pressure to “produce produce produce” for the sake of businessmen hungry for the revenue my work may yield would be far too distracting (and furthermore enraging) to center my existence around. Some manner of manual labor job would ideally allow me to survive without the negligible income of a typical writer, and to write upon whims of my own. It is the only proper, artistic way to conduct the matter, as I see it, though perhaps I am exceedingly naïve that way. *Shrug* Again, failures of my own, et cetera. As I like to put it, “I base my life on my ability, not responsibility”.

I foresee great tribulation, however. If this image of the publishing industry that is being formed in my mind (by other sources aside from this single message board referenced, mind you) is at all accurate, it seems likely that many of my artistic choices in my initial novel will be questioned, and change thereto will be demanded. In that situation (utterly removing a character, for instance, and thoroughly rewriting the main plot to compensate for the loss), I can easily see myself standing up from my seat before my editor, removing the copy of my manuscript from his/her keeping, and walking calmly away, firmly certain that I acted prudently. Understand, though, that I do not say this boastfully, and I do not say this in order that I might be seen as an incredibly “intransigent” individual; I simply write for reasons that do not permit arbitrary or unwarranted changes to my art by anyone who has not proven themselves my equal or superior. The motive behind my writing is quite simple. Through it I achieve a profound method of self-expression, and if my writing is warped to suit the fancies of my audience on the advice of an individual editor, it no longer qualifies as expression of the “self”, but rather “some self, some pollutant”. Like the most brilliant musician or most uninhibited pedophile, I write because it “feels good”, essentially, working toward the goal of creating something entirely of my own making, that this world has never seen before, and never quite will again. I am inclined to believe that this existence is entirely bereft of any sort of “meaning”, but my writing allows me to vent this sentiment, or occasionally pretend that it may not be true. I do not write for my audience; indeed, much of my writing stems from the loathing I direct towards the general whole of my species. I write, fully comfortable and obstinately entwined in the selfishness of it, for myself.

I have found, though, that that kind of attitude has difficulty breathing in this society. I manage, but I see those who have come before me, and I dread what may be asked of me. Hell, it is the way of our world; composers must traverse the business of television commercial jingles before they ever lay hands on the orchestras they dream of; people walk with pride (of all things) in and out of “Starving Artists” sales, in which artwork is sold by eponymous low prices and the artist deliberately taken advantage of. And it follows, naturally, that writers should accommodate the whims of the public, if they wish the public to read, right? Business corrupts art, and it does so thoroughly. Only inventive, pristine talent can survive. I guess the trick becomes, then, achieving that purity of form and maintaining a death grip on it before the method by which it might be dissected is fully understood by those at the head of this grim business.

So, such is a smattering of my thoughts on the matter. What about the rest of our boards’ membership? Any casual/prospective/successfully-published writers among us? What are your views on the creative process in general? Is artistry more corrupted now than it ever was, has it remained consistenly corrupted throughout the ages, or is it mankind’s greatest institution? Or – what’s that, you say – an entirely unanticipated perspective, mayhap? ^_^ Let us talk, mates.

[demondude]

That gave me an erection.

[Vice Nebulosa]

That gave me an erection.

Kind of an unintentional side-effect. Although I guess it now becomes my responsibility to have you inform me should it last for more than four hours . . . <_< >_>

[Psychotic]

The members Wolf Konno and Psychotic, in particular, seem to be intriguing individualsThis is a dangerous line of thought, although I return your sentiments. I have never, ever, seen an introduction post quite like that one. And I read it all.

As far as writing goes, I always get a few ideas for stories, write a chapter or so, then I just lose all interest and shelve it.

[Rye]

You sound quite a lot like my boyfriend. =o

He's I'm My Own MILF/Cougar on the Prowl (for our gender-bender day only though!), he's writing too. You guys should be best friends.

In any case, welcome! I love to write, though I do more bloggish writing, and occasionally poems. I like you, stick around!

[Rantz]

That's the longest first post I have ever seen. Welcome! :zidane:

I don't have much experience in writing, myself. Like Psychotic, I sometimes enthusiastically start writing something, then lose interest and leave it forever.

[Madame Adequate]

I, too, am an aspiring author. I, too, despair at the travails of anyone who wishes to become a published author. It seems that publishing, as with so many other fields of industry, has become the victim of bizarrely derived and ultimately arbitrary standards, such as the discussion on word counts. Any of us who aspire to it understand completely the motivation: We do not write for money or fame (though if we can achieve either or both, so much the better) but because things must be created.

Worse yet is the standard of much is what is on the shelf. I am fully aware that I am no Eco or Vonnegut, and if I ever become such it will be after many years of learning and experience. But compared to the preliterate dreck that one often stumbles through on the shelves, it feels as though I could fling my feces at a stack of paper and produce something considerably more profound. It would at least have the merit of being a genuine statement of rage, which is more than can be said for much of what is commonly found irritating one's eyes like a piece of particularly sharp grit.

I fear that I am all too resigned to the demands of the industry. I very much want people to read my work. On the other hand if it isn't my work then what is the point? I don't know what degree of interference is tolerable to me; like you, I will find that out when actually dealing with the matter first-hand. I suppose that I will tolerate a nip and tuck here and there, but the final piece must still sufficiently resemble the lady. To bludgeon the metaphor, what I fear is that they shall simply put implants into her breasts, dress her like a common whore, and push her blinking into the public eye, utterly unlike the girl I would have coyly presented. Metaphor butchered.

I am also somewhat concerned about stylistic demands. My current work is a science-fiction novel written in the style of a pop history book. I am pleased with what I have and am creating, but fear that it may not fit into the neat categories which may be required.

Perseverence is, it seems, the key. The perseverence to seek out wise agents and respectful publishers, and the perseverence to keep your work protected.

On the plus side for me, I'm expecting my current work to be of what is apparently the desired length, and I have already concocted a fairly good sales pitch for it (it is a tale of optimism for our troubled times yadda yadda not all young adults are cynical etc. blah de blah) but how well that works out I cannot say.

One day things will be better.

Welcome to the forums! Your post has, in turn, sparked a measure of verbosity from me. At any rate, stay away from the Rantzien!

[Vice Nebulosa]

This is a dangerous line of thought, although I return your sentiments. I have never, ever, seen an introduction post quite like that one. And I read it all.

That final sentence is good to hear, actually. ^_^ I have received a decent number of "tl / dr"s in my day, as you may freely imagine.


As far as writing goes, I always get a few ideas for stories, write a chapter or so, then I just lose all interest and shelve it.

Interesting. What genre are we discussing? I mean, are we discussing the birthing chapters of a full-fledged novel every time you feel the urge to write, or are these short stories, or something else entirely? I know that I occasionally feel inclined to write a few paragraphs about a spontaneous subject, whether it is some of the more unnerving qualities of the lake near which I live, or thoughts on humankind in general, and leave them saved in a "Rants" folder on my desktop for future reference. :chuckle: *Obstinately ignores cries of "loser" from afar* -_- Not a writing method I really understand, but I am a proponent of nothing if not diversity. Cheers, mate.


You sound quite a lot like my boyfriend. =o

Since we seem to be discussing a current boyfriend, I will take this graciously as a compliment. ^_^ Your boyfriend must be an irrepressibly brilliant individual.

*Draws katana, glares menacingly*

Irrepressibly brilliant, I said. ;).


He's I'm My Own MILF/Cougar on the Prowl (for our gender-bender day only though!),

Not sure I understand what you mean by this, but I will take it in good faith, all the same.


he's writing too. You guys should be best friends.

Member on this site, by any chance?


I like you, stick around!

That is the current plan. Many thanks.


I don't have much experience in writing, myself. Like Psychotic, I sometimes enthusiastically start writing something, then lose interest and leave it forever.

Fair enough. Never been one to leave a literary concept half-finished, myself (unless it is intentionally so, in order to have the reader infer various details themselves), but I can certainly understand the motives behind writing something brief and casual.

General question on the subject of writing on this site: I note that many RP threads exist here, and that the population of the site necessitates the placing of a limit on the number of participants. See, I was once a member of an RP thread on another forum (it turned out extremely well; there were several skilled writers on the site, the membership was small, and squabbles over the "fairness" of the plot when certain characters naturally became temporarily more prominent than others were at a minimum). I also note, however, that many of these on EoFF seem to incorporate a fairly detailed RPG-replication system (i.e. they emulate the style of RPG video games by incorporating actually names of spells, designing a specific quest that a group of heroes must undertake, etc.). On my former site, the plot was extremely open-ended once the basic setting was pinned down, allowing individual members to take the plot in unpredictable directions while maintaining a prudent balance between intelligence, humor, and dramatics, and the abilities and motives of many characters was left intentionally ambiguous. Given the freedom such an RP thread would allow, and the responsibility of attention to detail it calls for, how do you think such a thing would go over on EoFF? :plotting:

[Rye]

Told you!

[Madame Adequate]

Since we seem to be discussing a current boyfriend, I will take this graciously as a compliment. ^_^ Your boyfriend must be an irrepressibly brilliant individual.

*Draws katana, glares menacingly*

Irrepressibly brilliant, I said. ;).


He's I'm My Own MILF/Cougar on the Prowl (for our gender-bender day only though!),

Not sure I understand what you mean by this, but I will take it in good faith, all the same.


he's writing too. You guys should be best friends.

Member on this site, by any chance?

Aye, that would be me. :) My ordinary username is I'm my own MILF, but today... today is a special day. Today I get to be what I spend every other day dreaming of being: petite.

As an aside, I prefer to think of my brilliance as an repressive force which makes other people (http://forums.eyesonff.com/members/sigh%252C%2Bcooties%2B%2528again%2529.html) feel small about themselves.

[oddler]

Good luck; I mean that in the best of ways! I do enjoy a tall tale of fantasy fiction, so I hope you get both books published. You have to let us know when it happens, too. That's a command. :choc2:

Welcome. :)

[Psychotic]

As an aside, I prefer to think of my brilliance as an repressive force which makes other people (http://forums.eyesonff.com/members/sigh%252C%2Bcooties%2B%2528again%2529.html) feel small about themselves.hey hey hey what's the beef. Bros don't hate on bros.

[Madame Adequate]

As an aside, I prefer to think of my brilliance as an repressive force which makes other people (http://forums.eyesonff.com/members/sigh%252C%2Bcooties%2B%2528again%2529.html) feel small about themselves.hey hey hey what's the beef. Bros don't hate on bros.

I know you're man enough to not be concerned by such jesting!

[Momiji]

Longest introduction ever.

Stick around. :D

[Vice Nebulosa]

I, too, am an aspiring author. I, too, despair at the travails of anyone who wishes to become a published author. It seems that publishing, as with so many other fields of industry, has become the victim of bizarrely derived and ultimately arbitrary standards, such as the discussion on word counts. Any of us who aspire to it understand completely the motivation: We do not write for money or fame (though if we can achieve either or both, so much the better) but because things must be created.

No more need be said, really.


Worse yet is the standard of much is what is on the shelf. I am fully aware that I am no Eco or Vonnegut, and if I ever become such it will be after many years of learning and experience. But compared to the preliterate dreck that one often stumbles through on the shelves, it feels as though I could fling my feces at a stack of paper and produce something considerably more profound. It would at least have the merit of being a genuine statement of rage, which is more than can be said for much of what is commonly found irritating one's eyes like a piece of particularly sharp grit.

Nice. ;) Although this is understandably another one of those many images that would have something of a poor translation into physical reality . . . <_< >_> It would undoubtedly be an awkward situation were you to miss the stack of paper or something of that nature, and to try again would probably fail to recapture the desired profundity . . .


I fear that I am all too resigned to the demands of the industry. I very much want people to read my work. On the other hand if it isn't my work then what is the point? I don't know what degree of interference is tolerable to me; like you, I will find that out when actually dealing with the matter first-hand. I suppose that I will tolerate a nip and tuck here and there, but the final piece must still sufficiently resemble the lady. To bludgeon the metaphor, what I fear is that they shall simply put implants into her breasts, dress her like a common whore, and push her blinking into the public eye, utterly unlike the girl I would have coyly presented. Metaphor butchered.

*Shrug* It works. A particularly appropriate image, considering we reside in a culture that actually finds carbon-silicone life forms in the vein of Pamela Anderson attractive . . . :roll2



Perseverence is, it seems, the key. The perseverence to seek out wise agents and respectful publishers, and the perseverence to keep your work protected.

*Nod* Question in that regard, actually (and do note that my ignorance of the publishing process is pretty total). Have you any experience or advice in the matter of applying a copyright or some manner of "plagiarism protection" to a completed manuscript? I assume there must be something in the legal system which prevents someone from the street breaking into the home of an esteemed publisher and walking down to the metaphorical bank with an armful of manuscripts. <_< >_> That being said, I have no idea of what it may be. I am in the midst of such research, but it could certainly be beneficial to have information flowing to me from multiple directions, or for multiple sources to confirm one another . . .


On the plus side for me, I'm expecting my current work to be of what is apparently the desired length, and I have already concocted a fairly good sales pitch for it (it is a tale of optimism for our troubled times yadda yadda not all young adults are cynical etc. blah de blah) but how well that works out I cannot say.

Best of luck, and whatnot. Although beyond knowing that there do exist certain allies in this world of ours, even for the most obscure of us (to quote Sharon den Adel, sort of an "If I don't make it, someone else will" type of image), we are probably not of much use to one another. Still, even this conversation has served to improve the current mood somewhat; I feel I am talking to a genuine writer at this point. The enduring characteristic of those posting on the fiction message board I have referenced was panic ("help me; my story is too long/short", "help me; I think my plot is too derivative", "help me; no one will publish my book", etc.), and it is refreshing to see that I am speaking to another who is not so easily shaken. There is trepidation in me, dread perhaps, but fear in this matter I feel not.


One day things will be better.

*Smirk* Optimist. Albeit an unusually articulate one. ;) Everything decays, mate, be it matter, man, or memory; energy, relationships, or the universe itself. Any progress upward is purely incidental and entirely temporary; the curve downward to oblivion endures.


Welcome to the forums!

Yeah, thanks. Methinks we could get along quite well. :)


At any rate, stay away from the Rantzien!

Pedophile? ;)



Told you!

Aye, that would be me. :)

*Blink* Oh . . .



. . . I get it now. Don't mind Vice; it takes him some time to get going, but once the momentum is there, he is generally capable of basic comprehension, at least as far as shapes and patterns go. :mad:


As an aside, I prefer to think of my brilliance as an repressive force which makes other people (http://forums.eyesonff.com/members/sigh%252C%2Bcooties%2B%2528again%2529.html) feel small about themselves.

Have you two been at one another's throats or something? :chuckle: That seems like it could be an argument worth witnessing. But then, imagined conflicts are invariably better than the real thing . . .


Good luck; I mean that in the best of ways! I do enjoy a tall tale of fantasy fiction, so I hope you get both books published. You have to let us know when it happens, too. That's a command. :choc2:Welcome. :)

If I am both A) alive and B) still on these forums by such an indeterminate time, then I will see what I can do. ;) Thanks for the welcome, mate.


Longest introduction ever.

Stick around. :D

Yeah, but most message boards have a forum for introductions; would have been a most unfortunate entrance were I to begin with something that could be considered spam. Thus, I figured I would couple an introduction with an actual discussion, thus dodging all scorn and forcing you all through the agony of translating a wall of text. ^_^

[Rantz]

At any rate, stay away from the Rantzien!

Pedophile? ;)

Sarcophile!

[Madame Adequate]

Perseverence is, it seems, the key. The perseverence to seek out wise agents and respectful publishers, and the perseverence to keep your work protected.

*Nod* Question in that regard, actually (and do note that my ignorance of the publishing process is pretty total). Have you any experience or advice in the matter of applying a copyright or some manner of "plagiarism protection" to a completed manuscript? I assume there must be something in the legal system which prevents someone from the street breaking into the home of an esteemed publisher and walking down to the metaphorical bank with an armful of manuscripts. <_< >_> That being said, I have no idea of what it may be. I am in the midst of such research, but it could certainly be beneficial to have information flowing to me from multiple directions, or for multiple sources to confirm one another . . .

To the best of my knowledge, copyright comes into existence the moment you create something. Though it is generally advisable to stick "Copyright John Q. Public 2009" or whatever on it. As for preventing theft, there are a couple of things you can do. On the manuscript, on a random page somewhere within it, simply put a small dot in red pen on it somewhere. Then you can see if they've sent back a photocopy, or if your book ends up published without your consent, I presume you could demand to see their original manuscript and match it against your own. There are, sadly, no guarantees. I suppose the best option is to simply use reputable publishing houses who have a brand and image to maintain.


Best of luck, and whatnot. Although beyond knowing that there do exist certain allies in this world of ours, even for the most obscure of us (to quote Sharon den Adel, sort of an "If I don't make it, someone else will" type of image), we are probably not of much use to one another. Still, even this conversation has served to improve the current mood somewhat; I feel I am talking to a genuine writer at this point. The enduring characteristic of those posting on the fiction message board I have referenced was panic ("help me; my story is too long/short", "help me; I think my plot is too derivative", "help me; no one will publish my book", etc.), and it is refreshing to see that I am speaking to another who is not so easily shaken. There is trepidation in me, dread perhaps, but fear in this matter I feel not.

Ahaha, I've rarely seen it put so well! Yes, solidarity and the company of like-minded people is a great boost sometimes, even without direct or tangible assistance for one another. I can understand the feeling that one's work is inadequate, but I can't understand that desperate air some have. I enjoy what I create. I hope others do but, if they do not, that will not diminish what I feel. It cannot be diminished, only potentially enhanced.


*Smirk* Optimist. Albeit an unusually articulate one. ;) Everything decays, mate, be it matter, man, or memory; energy, relationships, or the universe itself. Any progress upward is purely incidental and entirely temporary; the curve downward to oblivion endures.

Ohohoho, one of those types, are you? xD Well I'll just have to convince you otherwise! Yes, I'm an inveterate optimist about pretty much everything. For me, it's downward progress which is the anomoly; the arc of history has always between towards greater complexity, greater prosperity, and greater liberty. I'm entirely unconvinced that there are any insurmountable obstacles in the universe, I'm afraid :p


Have you two been at one another's throats or something? :chuckle: That seems like it could be an argument worth witnessing. But then, imagined conflicts are invariably better than the real thing . . .

Ahaha, no, he and I are friends. What is friendship without a little teasing here and there? For instance, Rantzien is not a pedophile but he is Swedish. Though who among us can say we are not in love with the President of France?

Apologies for not responding (and any errors in what I have written) to everything you said, but it's far, far too hot in here and I feel rather cheated because it was quite cool earlier, but along comes nighttime and with it, an insufferable rise in temperate. I may go and douse myself in cold water, if I can find any.

[Depression Moon]

Damn, Vice I'm an author too, but I don't go posting a whole novel about introducing myself to a forum. I could welcome you, but you just have to promise not to do that ever again.

[Meat Puppet]

I love to write, but having the linguistic dexterity of a snail basking in the sun, I’m not one to share it. It’s for my own pleasure, really.

Not that... oh dear, here it comes again.

[qwertysaur]

I like you. You are not permited to ever leave us or Demon Dame will cry.

[rubah]

welcome to eoff!

I hate to be a downer, but I get this feeling that college will completely change your outlook on this writing and publishing etc and make you rethink your posting style. But for now, I appreciate the infusion of youthful ambition! Fly high, :albatoss:

[NeoCracker]

That was not only the largest introduction post on this site, but contends with the sites longest post I'd imagine.

And for a couple of quick comments to your post, while sometimes you can get away with it, word count is going to be a major factor in whether or not a Novel gets published, and even quality works have probably been rejected because of it. It's a sad but true fact. Luckily the book I'm writing will end up in the acceptable range anyway.

And while they may want changes that are more mainstream, it is entirely possible to keep the books original intent there, and make for a great expression of whatever you were trying to express. It's all about if you have the ability to do so. There are more then one way to express the same thing.

That asside, welcome to our ranks fellow writer. ^_^

[nik0tine]

I'm not reading that but welcome to EoFF!

[Araciel]

I wrote some things once. Welcome to EoFF.

[LunarWeaver]

I only write love letters to myself. http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/LunarWeaver/Lucca-Cry.gif

Welcome to the forum and stuff!

[Vice Nebulosa]

To the best of my knowledge, copyright comes into existence the moment you create something. Though it is generally advisable to stick "Copyright John Q. Public 2009" or whatever on it.

Say what? ~_^ Just "stick it on" to your manuscript yourself? I.e. "Copyright John Q. Public"could feasibly be written in a mahogany shade of crayon? Somehow I have a difficult time believing such a thing has any legal value . . .

Or am I the one being naïve here, and it was implied by your statement that a legal institution would be responsible for issuing the copyright?


As for preventing theft, there are a couple of things you can do. On the manuscript, on a random page somewhere within it, simply put a small dot in red pen on it somewhere. Then you can see if they've sent back a photocopy, or if your book ends up published without your consent, I presume you could demand to see their original manuscript and match it against your own.

Rather clever, actually, if crude. I seem to remember hearing the tip before; very . . . makeshift. The law is forever a step behind its breakers, no?


I can understand the feeling that one's work is inadequate, but I can't understand that desperate air some have.

Oh, the sense of inadequacy is definitely understandable (we are none of us capable of surpassing our predetermined human limits, after all; it is simply that some of us are born with the potential and mental faculties that enable the Beethovens of the world to achieve a certain amount of momentum without much effort, and others may break their backs with the effort of reaching a mere fraction of such ability, even at their own maximum momentum). Hell, how can one not be occasionally frustrated that one's best work may be effortlessly surpassed by a child who was (seemingly arbitrarily) endowed with the capacity to do so? That I comprehend, no trouble. It has to do, likely, with unwillingness to admit one's own insignificance.

But the "desperation", as you put it . . . yeah, that is a strange one. What really got to me, actually, was a thread on the forums entitled "Is my plot too derivative?", in which the author basically outlined an entire science-fiction plot (kind of cheesy, but all brilliant ideas originate somewhere, and gems are oftentimes embedded in tons of useless rock). This too is strange. The answer, naturally, can only come from the author ("did I, as the author, derive my plot from others for lack of ideas, or does something remain to be said about the derived idea?"); an original idea is not nearly so important as an original perspective, and one does not go online and discuss that. <_< >_>


I enjoy what I create. I hope others do but, if they do not, that will not diminish what I feel. It cannot be diminished, only potentially enhanced.

*Reaches for nearest object that could conceivably be raised in a toast; in this case a nectarine -_-*

To that sentiment, then.


Ohohoho, one of those types, are you? xD

*Feh* "One of those types", he says. :roll2 Although I suppose you are only playing turnabout (I did, after all, label you with all the connotations of the word "optimist"; presumably you are simply meaning "pessimist" on my part), which is most certainly fair play.


Well I'll just have to convince you otherwise!

This "type" of mine needs "fixing", does it? ;) *Shrug* Proceed. Be advised, however, that you must endeavor to succeed where many, of various levels of intelligence and individuality (including the bearers of my chromosomes, as it turns out) have most assuredly failed. It is a debate I would certainly enjoy taking to an unprecedented level of sophistication. ^_^


Yes, I'm an inveterate optimist about pretty much everything. For me, it's downward progress which is the anomoly; the arc of history has always between towards greater complexity, greater prosperity, and greater liberty.

Eh, I am inclined to separate "liberty" from the remaining two criteria. Democracy (and the individual liberty it enables) may be more prevalent currently than it ever was, but it is hardly "the way of the world". We are right now witnessing the profound rise of a communist dictatorship as a world superpower; suppression of individual liberty in favor of collective gain is far from dead. One perspective will not "disappear" while the other remains; they exist and will continue to exist in a certain balance, dictated officially by the relative sizes of the militaries involved, but an Earth ruled by those who view individual liberty as a petty, meaningless luxury before the glory of the entire species always has potential energy -- the potential for rebellion, and a return of individual liberty, and vice versa. We are simply in an intermediate stage at this point, wherein the battles for and against liberty occur on a national and continental scale and not a planetary one.

As long as morality is subjective enough that neither view is entirely "right" or "wrong", I see no reason that "liberty" should be seen as an indefinitely escalating phenomenon. Granted, it will rise, but it will also fall when sufficient decay has occurred and something new is constructed. To suggest otherwise implies that human nature is undergoing some kind of "evolution", which I seriously doubt. Regardless of the fabrics in which we clothe ourselves and the raw data we amass and store in our brains, we are still the same basic creatures who routinely destroyed other organisms in order that they as hominids might survive. Consider war: two World Wars have been wrought by German hands, both with the perceived goal of "dominating the planet" in political, military, and ideological terms. And yet, why? If one "ruled the world", one would be stuck with the abhorrent responsibility of ensuring that six billion humans (or some chosen fraction thereof) is fed and sheltered on a daily basis. There would no longer be anyone to conquer, and everyone to fear as a threat to your power. I doubt anyone truly wants to "rule the world" (destroy it, maybe, but not babysit); they simply, like their primitive ancestors, enjoy the feeling of bludgeoning rivals to death with clubs. Exchange "club" with "AK-47" or "nuke", or whatever new invention our self-destructive minds envision next and cannot refrain from testing, and we have a problem.

Human nature is not evolving, to my mind, and its ideals such as "liberty" are thus not evolving beyond their normal constraints, either. We are repeating certain cycles because we know how to do nothing else in a universe that would frighten us terribly if we did not believe science was the key to omniscience and immortality (neither of which I can possibly imagine anyone truly desiring, either).

As for your "tendency to greater complexity and prosperity" assertion, I agree with you to a point. Naturally the sophistication of mankind and its prosperity on this Earth will increase if given unlimited stimulation, but only until we run out of water or something. :roll2 We are a frail species in the grander scheme of things, methinks; our existence was sparked by astronomical chance and is maintained only by the incidental presence of the resources we require. Should the next planet (after Earth is thoroughly raped and depleted) happen to be too far away, for instance, that is "it". Humans grow more complex and prosperous under ideal circumstances. Our "insurmountable obstacle" could be something as simple as "distance", or as inevitable as "decay".

[/rant] -_-


Ahaha, no, he and I are friends. What is friendship without a little teasing here and there? For instance, Rantzien is not a pedophile but he is Swedish. Though who among us can say we are not in love with the President of France?

Meh; we in Canada are largely immune to such attraction. We tend to be a bit jaded regarding the French in general, what with Quebec being the juvenile squabbler that it is. <_< >_>


Apologies for not responding (and any errors in what I have written) to everything you said,

Unnecessary, but acknowledged. I have no intention of responding to every facet of your every comment, either. :p


but it's far, far too hot in here and I feel rather cheated because it was quite cool earlier, but along comes nighttime and with it, an insufferable rise in temperate. I may go and douse myself in cold water, if I can find any.

Where is "here", in climatic terms, out of curiosity?


Damn, Vice I'm an author too, but I don't go posting a whole novel about introducing myself to a forum.

Wasn't aiming to impress anyone, mate; just a tad confused about the boards' introduction process and in serious need of some indiscriminate venting. ;)


I could welcome you, but you just have to promise not to do that ever again.

No can do, mate. <_< >_> Greetings nonetheless.


I like you. You are not permited to ever leave us or Demon Dame will cry.

This Demon Dame is rather "all over the place" is he not? :laugh: When I arrived, he promptly indicated he had achieved an erection, and he will collapse emotionally if I should leave. Huh.


welcome to eoff!

Much appreciated, Remus. ^_^


I hate to be a downer, but I get this feeling that college will completely change your outlook on this writing and publishing etc and make you rethink your posting style.

Interesting. Can you explain further?


That was not only the largest introduction post on this site, but contends with the sites longest post I'd imagine.

Seriously? :Eek: Back on my previous boards, the membership would regularly double-post during larger discussions (granted, we were working with a mere 10 000 character limit, and this may well vary from EoFF), and range into triple and even quadruple posts when working with our variation of an "RP Thread" (which was of unusually high quality, given that I was working with at least one author who I would regard as an "equal" in terms of literary style). This is all fairly commonplace to me, to be honest. <_< >_>


And for a couple of quick comments to your post, while sometimes you can get away with it, word count is going to be a major factor in whether or not a Novel gets published, and even quality works have probably been rejected because of it. It's a sad but true fact.

But totally without merit, was my point. The length of a piece of literature is not a legitimate indicator of its quality -- there is really no challenging such a blatantly obvious piece of logic. It is an interesting and sometimes unfortunate culture to reside in, that places businessmen between artists and their audience; wherein economics actually take priority over the artistic concerns which are the reason the business exists in the first place. =\ Makes one long for the principles of the ancient culture of the Greeks, in some ways . . .


Luckily the book I'm writing will end up in the acceptable range anyway. And while they may want changes that are more mainstream, it is entirely possible to keep the books original intent there, and make for a great expression of whatever you were trying to express.

Granted. This means that an editor/publishing company is justified in advising the writer. That they should instead be given the authority to override the enduring intentions of the writer to suit their own subjective little perspective on what is "culturally acceptable is preposterous. Anyone with an iota of artistic potential in their mind probably knows this, whether consciously or not, but it is a fact which our culture chooses to ignore.


It's all about if you have the ability to do so. There are more then one way to express the same thing.

Would that it were so simple. As discussed in my inaugural post and certain of Couger on the Prowl's statments, "ability" should be the only prerequisite to artistic recognition. Again, however, the publishing business appears to introduce the principle "it is not what you do, but who you know", and "the shelves may burst with dreck" because of it.


That asside, welcome to our ranks fellow writer. ^_^

Pleasure.


I only write love letters to myself. http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i29/LunarWeaver/Lucca-Cry.gif

Amusing. :laugh: Poor, horribly depressed Lucca sprite.

[Laddy]

BIG ASS POST