HOLY CATACLYSM BATMAN!!!

[Wolf Kanno]

Haven't see this topic in awhile...

WARNING!!!! MAJOR SPOILERS!!!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!!


Looking at the Ivalice timeline, there is an event that separates XII/TA2 with FT/VS and that is the Great Cataclysm. As we learn more about the nature of the world of Ivalice we keep coming up with new theories as to what this event in history is.

Was it a dimensional being breaking into this dimensional realm?

Did the Occurians mount a new offense to take back the planet after Vayne's Rebellion?

Was it the Lucavi finally taking advantage of the gods being forced off earth?

Could it have been just a natural disaster spurned on by magicks gone awry?

Could it have something to do with the Mist?

Or could it be something we haven't even thought of?

So what are your theories EoFF? ;)

[Skyblade]

You might want to mark this as a spoiler thread.

I personally think that the great cataclysm was hinted at in FFTA2. When you first encounter the Neuhkia, you get told by Lezaford that the opening of a Rift allows through tremendous power and usually great evils. He also says that no Rift has ever been fully opened, and even he does not know what would happen if it did. Ancient loremasters feared the Rifts and built tools to seal them away, including the Grimoire of the Rift carried by Luso.

My guess is the cataclysm was the full opening of a Rift. Specifically, the one connecting to the otherworld of the scions, or the Lucavi, as we know them in the FFT Ivalice. In FFTA2, we are told that the scions (the 13 espers of FFXII, including Ultima, Zalera, Hashmal, Cúchulainn, Adrammelech, and Belias, the Lucavi of FFT) exist in an otherworld, and that their power when summoned by pact in this world is but a shadow of their true strength. When the Rift opens, the Lucavi descend upon Ivalice, unleashing their true strength.

Or maybe not, who knows?

[Dignified Pauper]

XII and FFT aren't related to TA.

[Skyblade]

XII and FFT aren't related to TA.

FFTA formed the basis for XII's Ivalice, and if XII and FFT are related, it is highly likely that FFTA is too.

Then as well, TA2 is part of the Ivalice Alliance, so it definitely links to FFT and XII.

Further, you seem to be missing the point. If XII and FFT are linked, then something happened in between that drastically reshaped the world, as well as ridding it (or part of it) of the nonhuman races.

[Wolf Kanno]

Actually XII is the basis for FFTA, the staff was working on XII at the same time and chose to premier some of the races in FFTA. I don't believe TA is part of the real timeline (seeing as how many characters, beings, and people are different in this world as opposed to the other Ivalice worlds that have obvious historical links) but its obvious TA2 is seeing as how Vaan and a few others appear in the game.

If a Cid Knight or admin wants to add spoilers to the title so be it but I feel the time limit is up for most of these games. If you haven't played them now, you're probably not going to.

Back on topic...

So you feel its a combination of theories. A dimensional rift caused by or at least exploited by the Lucavi?

[Skyblade]

Luso also appears in FFT: War of the Lions.

Ok, I felt that only being a year old, FFTA2 info was still considered spoiler worthy.

Yes, I feel that's the best explanation for things at this point. The scions and the Lucavi are far too similar for it to be mere coincidence. In all likelihood, they are the same entity. Since they actually exist in FFT, they must have come from the otherworld to Ivalice at some point, and from that, the Rift is an obvious choice for their arrival. Seeing as we already see demons approaching from the rift (the Neuhkia), it makes sense that they could reach Ivalice through there as well, and given Lezaford's warning, the opening of the Rift could well have facilitated the Lucavi's travel to Ivalice as well as being the cause of the cataclysm.

How much of the change to Ivalice was the cataclysm, though, and how much was the war against the Lucavi? Mist seems gone from the world in FFT, though auracite remains. Was it all used up battling the Lucavi and whatever else came through, or was it wiped away by the opening of the Rift itself? And what happened to the other races?

I always forget that XII was in development for a year before FFTA's development started. They spent way too long on that game.

[Wolf Kanno]

The Mist may still remain, its mentioned that the region of FFT is split from the eastern side of the continent (Rozzaria and the Galtean Peninsula) by a Jagd. Which is a Mist filled area. I still hold to the theory that the Mist is also the Dark from Vagrant Story, seeing how they have similar properties (use for summoning, magic and special powers, even bringing the dead back to life.) Course VS takes place in Valendia (region where Archades Empire is located) and its briefly mentioned if memory serves me correct that cities utilize barriers to protect themselves from the normal amount of Dark that exists in the world.

I still wonder if the Occurians play a role though, seeing as they appear to have several satellites/cities in the sky that we saw when Lady Ashe met them in Giruvegan. I can't imagine that Vayne's Rebellion could beat them so soundly.

[Skyblade]

I doubt it is the Occurians. With the exception of FFXII, the only Ivalice game to even metion them is FFXII: RW, and it is just that, a mention. While there may be an Occurian left alive somwhere, I never got the impression that they were that numerous, or that they held a lot of real power (most of their power was acting through tools or agents). I think they are pretty much gone.

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't know, seeing how the Occurians are credited with creating the Lucavi/Scions, I'd say they held more power than we think. I feel its still plausible. If they didn't create them they at least had the means to enslave them seeing how the act as guardians for all their sacred places.

[Skyblade]

That is an interesting point. In FFXII, the Espers seem to be creatures of Ivalice created by the Occurians, not creatures of the otherworld the way they are portrayed in FFTA2.

My guess is that the Espers were originally created by the Occurians, then banished to the otherworld after Ultima's rebellion. The Occurians then bound them in the summoning pacts. With the Occurian's fall, Ultima saw a chance to once again attempt to seize power over this world, and, when the Rift opened, she did, leading the Lucavi back to Ivalice and causing the cataclysm.

How Ultima fell after that (so that she had to be revived in FFT) is unknown, however.

[Dignified Pauper]

The games aren't related at all.

Firstly, FFXII takes place in the WORLD of Ivalice. In FFT, Ivalice is a country, and in FFTA - it's a world. Secondly, the world maps do not match in any of the games - nor do any of the places (sans FFTA and FFTA2)

Further, no FF's are related unless directly specified as sequels.

That said, the Lucavi in FFT were the direct bastardization of the twelve apostles of the bible, as well as St. Ajora being a Jesus-like figure. Having a counter to the entire faith in FFT is what made the story what it was and so effective, as well as the entire struggle between the political factions.

The Lucavi serve as nothing more.

[Wolf Kanno]

Taken from the XII Ultimania...

30298

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/73/Ivalice-time.jpg


So yes, they are connected. XII takes place before FFT (about a 1000 years according to the Ultimania Timeline) and its located in the east. It's separated by a Jagd and the Kingdom Of Rozzaria. Vagrant Story begins in Valendia, which is the name of the region where the Archades Empire is located. Auracite, the stones used to summon the Espers, is the same named used for the Zodiac stones in FFT:WotL.

Ivalice, is being explored like the world of Suikoden, in that we only see part of the world with each new entry. Hell, FFTA2 takes place in Ordalia, which is the kingdom that fought the FFT Ivalice during the Fifty Years War. Yes, their are some discrepancies, but this is what happens when you start building on something 10 years after the original. :roll2


Skyblade: I agree, and this is why I feel their is a chance she was involved with the Great Cataclysm, though she may have fallen during the days of St. Ajora as well, seeing as St. Ajora used the Auracite and the tale of the Zodiac Braves to gain power among the masses. Perhaps Ultima is to blame for the "miracle" at Ajora's death. ;)

[Skyblade]

Do we know the actual timeline change from FFXII to FFTA2? How much time passed, etcetera?

[Wolf Kanno]

No, I'm afraid. If I had to guess, its between five and ten years since Penelo and Vaan are quite older and more mature than they were in Revenant Wings. Yet it can't be too long, since Al-Cid is still the "International Man of Mystery". We know its been long enough for Vaan and Penelo to gain a reputation worldwide.

[Dignified Pauper]

this is bullocks. That image is photoshop and this is all fanfiction. None of this has ever been confirmed by Square and none of the games reference eachother except the obvious sequels.

FFXII is related to Revenant Wings
FFT is stand-alone
FFTA and FFTA2 are direct sequels.

The worlds all exist separately.

[Wolf Kanno]

this is bullocks. That image is photoshop and this is all fanfiction. None of this has ever been confirmed by Square and none of the games reference eachother except the obvious sequels.

FFXII is related to Revenant Wings
FFT is stand-alone
FFTA and FFTA2 are direct sequels.

The worlds all exist separately.

Further reseach shows you are right about the map but...

http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-xii/113742-ivalice-whole.html

Ivalice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivalice)

Ivalice - The Final Fantasy Wiki has more Final Fantasy information than Cid could research (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ivalice)

That timeline picture is actually from the Final Fantasy XII OMEGA Ultimania, its referenced and shown again in the first link I gave you. The Ultimania links Tactics to XII and its pretty obvious that TA2 is a sequel to XII considering all recurring characters are older.

Not so sure about the Mewt reference in TA2 though...

[Skyblade]

My Ultimania FFXII has this map on the cover

http://ffproject.net/forumwiki/images/Ivalicehuge.jpg

There's a much better version of the map.

[Renmiri]

I have the Ultimania Omega FFXII. Yes, the book has FFT and FFXII as related. I'll try to scan the relevant page this weekend (had it on my HD but can't find it). But who speaks japanese here ?

[Wolf Kanno]

Kishi, though I'm not sure he would have time or interest. I know a little but it will take some time unless its kanji then I'm screwed... :cry:

[Skyblade]

The FFTA/FFTA2 connection is a really odd one. There are a lot of definite and obvious connections, but there are tons of contradictions as well.

Mewt comes back at the end of FFTA2, and gives a fairly solid clencher that the games are directly connected, but he is the only recurring character to give that impression.

But there are issues with that. The entire Judge/law system is overhauled, and has very different roots and implementation in the lore of the two games. Ezel makes a reappearance as an alchemist who fiddles with the law (he makes a card for your clan that protects your Judge from being barred from combat), yet no mention is made of his previous attempts to break down the law (or any of the other events of FFTA), nor does it mention the differences in the law system.

Montblanc reappears as a travelling Black Mage (and even though my clan's average level was 12 when I finally got to him on Hard Mode, the little twerp joined me at level 45. Do you know how many resets it takes to get a Black Mage to have decent speed when they join at that level?!), but, though he mentions Clan Centurio and the adventures from FFXII, again, there is no mention of FFTA's events.

Nono is also mentioned after you recruit Vaan and Penelo, as the chief machinist of the Strahl who was left on Lemures (indicating that this is after FFXII: Revenant Wings, and by about 2 years, from the feel I got), and recently finished construction of his own airship. Again, no mention of his previous airship adventures in FFTA, where he had his own merchant ship that got wrecked twice.

Al-Cid also shows up, and when he joins your clan, he mentions that he was laying low because of some trouble in Rozzaria to the east (Jylland is definitely to the west of Rozzaria and the rest of the FFXII Ivalice, this is mentioned several times). What that trouble is, we never get to know, unfortunately.

Jylland is shown as a continent or country in Ivalice, while in FFTA, Ivalice was an individual country, not a world. The laws apparently only exist in Jylland, and were made by Lezaford, a mage in that realm. When you talk to him about the judges on some of the side quests, he says they are more magical golems than individuals. Tied to the Judge Pact, but with no personality or will. There is a small mention that when the laws were first made, they affected everyone until complaints about it being too restrictive caused them to be restructured so only those who swore the Judge Oath would receive their benefits, which could indicate that the law system (and thus, perhaps the Judges) were different, but even that does not match up with the system we saw in FFTA, where the laws seemed to have been in play for a long time already, and were arbitrarily messed with at the whim of the royal family.

Seams are either absent from FFTA2, or have been restructured into the Rifts, but we don't get enough info to tell for sure.


So how do we reconcile the two worlds? They have a lot in common, and Mewt's cameo at the endgame says that the worlds are the same, yet there are some glaring inconsistencies. My only guess is that the Gran Grimoire is responsible. When Mewt first read it, I think it must have reshaped Ivalice from the FFXII world we know to the world we saw in FFTA. When Mewt left the world reverted back to it's natural state, leaving the events of FFTA as a sort of parallel existence or alternate history.

What happened to the Gran Grimoire is a bit of a mystery as well. While Lezaford mentions it in a quest, other than that, it is not seen. There is some speculation that the book Luso writes in at the start of FFTA2 may be the Gran Grimoire, but I'm not a huge fan of that theory. For one thing, the Gran Grimoire's pages were not blank, nor were they understandable in our language. Also, assuming that Luso did write in the Gran Grimoire, it would raise the quesiton of why didn't the world shift to mold itself around his dreams, the way it had Mewt? If Luso did cause the world to shift, even if not around his dreams, then does the fact that the world settled into the canon Ivalice mean that no one is going to visit there from Luso and Mewt's world again (since if they did, and the world changed again, it wouldn't be the canon Ivalice anymore)? So, no, I don't think that the book Luso wrote in was the Gran Grimoire.

Although I can't help but notice that it was mysteriously absent from the library when Luso returned to his world. Also, why would Mewt have another magic book? Did he collect them at some point, hoping to find a way back to Ivalice? Or did the book move on its own, gravitating to a place where it could take Luso (who was chosen by the Grimoire of the Rift), to Ivalice, and then, once its purpose was fulfilled, it left?

For that matter, what connection did the book have to the Grimoire of the Rift? It was unlikely to be the same book, as Luso did not act as though it was the same book when Cid pointed out the Grimoire to him during the first mission. He treated it like a basic journal he was carrying around (unknowingly), and didn't comment on any similarities between the Grimoire and the magic book in the library.


Um, yeah, I guess I'm writing text walls again. Sorry. I just seem to get a bit carried away with these games. I have no idea why.

[Renmiri]

mm. k.. there's 10 pages about the series and how they relate to each other. The whole section is called "Study of Ivalice". If you find someone who can read it, the 10 pages are here (2 pages per scan)
Ultimania Omega FFXII - a set on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/24357583@N07/sets/72157621181552633/)

Bonus from last page: Cute FFXII FFTA pic

[Skyblade]

So they specifically detail the relationship between FFXII and FFTA (not FFTA2, that is definitely FFTA), and then release it only in Japanese... That's annoying. How am I supposed to complete my theories now?

Excuse me, I need to go blackmail encourage someone to translate this.

Oh, and that is an FFTA pic, not an FFXII pic, Renmiri.

[Renmiri]

Oh ? I thought it was XII because of the judges in the background

[Wolf Kanno]

FFTA debuted the Ivalice races and Judges. The team was making this game simultaneously with XII, and released it before they realized it would be another 3 or 4 years until XII would see the light of day. ;)

[Skyblade]

Oh ? I thought it was XII because of the judges in the background

The judges were a very important element of TA, probably moreso than they were in XII. In addition to dictating combat, they served incredibly important roles in the story, and, in fact, had a fairly lengthy secondary storyline all to themselves. I understand that the judges did play a hefty role in FFXII's story, but the FFTA games really expanded on what the judges were, and what their powers were.

But, yeah, that pic was the cover art for FFTA. The foreground characters are Mewt, Marche, Ritz, and Doned, 4 of the five main characters of FFTA (the last main character is Judgemaster Cid, Mewt's father) who came to Ivalice from the other world.

[El Sid]

Mewt comes back at the end of FFTA2, and gives a fairly solid clencher that the games are directly connected, but he is the only recurring character to give that impression.
Hmm, Well Think About How Long It Woulda Taken Luso To Do Those Measly 20 Main Quests, At Least 21 Days, Plus Travel Time. Yet When He Wakes Up In The Library It Has Only Been A Few Hours, This Suggests That FFTA Was WAAAAAAAAY Before FFTA2, Seing As It's Been At Least 10 Years In Mewt's Real World.



But there are issues with that. The entire Judge/law system is overhauled, and has very different roots and implementation in the lore of the two games. Ezel makes a reappearance as an alchemist who fiddles with the law (he makes a card for your clan that protects your Judge from being barred from combat), yet no mention is made of his previous attempts to break down the law (or any of the other events of FFTA), nor does it mention the differences in the law system.
Personally I Thought Ezel May Be "Gifted" Like Addel Or Lenart. I Have No Basis For That Though, Other Than The Gifted Live For A Long Time



Montblanc reappears as a travelling Black Mage, though he mentions Clan Centurio and the adventures from FFXII, again, there is no mention of FFTA's events.
Heard Him Die Yet? He Says Something About An Old Friend. *I Think* But It Wrecks My Theory On The Timezones



Jylland is shown as a continent or country in Ivalice, while in FFTA, Ivalice was an individual country, not a world.
Ozmon Field, Salikawood, giza plains and azenfield.
Tey Were All In TA I Believe, Some In XII And In A2, Problem I Have With Joining The TA World Is That You Get To CHOSE Where The Places Are, Which Makes It Difficult To Orientate.



Seams are either absent from FFTA2, or have been restructured into the Rifts, but we don't get enough info to tell for sure.
The Seems Got Destroyed In TA, Thus Creating Instability Within The Realm, Possibly A Cataclysm.



Although I can't help but notice that it was mysteriously absent from the library when Luso returned to his world. Also, why would Mewt have another magic book? Did he collect them at some point, hoping to find a way back to Ivalice? Or did the book move on its own, gravitating to a place where it could take Luso (who was chosen by the Grimoire of the Rift), to Ivalice, and then, once its purpose was fulfilled, it left?
I Like The Mewt Collects Them Idea :P We Was Always A Bookworm.
Plus, It's Revealed In The Story That There Are Several Grimoires, Illua Had One, And Lezaford Hinted At More. So Why Shouldn't They Exist In Mewt's World Aswell?



Um, yeah, I guess I'm writing text walls again. Sorry. I just seem to get a bit carried away with these games. I have no idea why.
Ditto. Cept, Mine Are Pure Theory.


p.s. Sorry For The Grammar/Spelling Mistakes And Excessive Caps.

[Skyblade]

Mewt comes back at the end of FFTA2, and gives a fairly solid clencher that the games are directly connected, but he is the only recurring character to give that impression.
Hmm, Well Think About How Long It Woulda Taken Luso To Do Those Measly 20 Main Quests, At Least 21 Days, Plus Travel Time. Yet When He Wakes Up In The Library It Has Only Been A Few Hours, This Suggests That FFTA Was WAAAAAAAAY Before FFTA2, Seing As It's Been At Least 10 Years In Mewt's Real World.

Temporal distortions are standard fare for interdimensional travel. Heck, look at The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. They were in there for years, yet when they came out, no time had passed at all.




But there are issues with that. The entire Judge/law system is overhauled, and has very different roots and implementation in the lore of the two games. Ezel makes a reappearance as an alchemist who fiddles with the law (he makes a card for your clan that protects your Judge from being barred from combat), yet no mention is made of his previous attempts to break down the law (or any of the other events of FFTA), nor does it mention the differences in the law system.
Personally I Thought Ezel May Be "Gifted" Like Addel Or Lenart. I Have No Basis For That Though, Other Than The Gifted Live For A Long Time

Perhaps, but don't forget that Montblanc returns as well. I doubt they're both Gifted. Also, Ezel only pops by for one scene, more of a cameo than anything else. It's possible he's gifted, but I wouldn't say it is the most likely circumstance.




Montblanc reappears as a travelling Black Mage, though he mentions Clan Centurio and the adventures from FFXII, again, there is no mention of FFTA's events.
Heard Him Die Yet? He Says Something About An Old Friend. *I Think* But It Wrecks My Theory On The Timezones

No, I haven't heard any of my character die except for Blue Mages who have Auto-Raise on. Death is bad. And I recently saved over my file with him in it, so it'll be a while before I get the chance again.




Jylland is shown as a continent or country in Ivalice, while in FFTA, Ivalice was an individual country, not a world.
Ozmon Field, Salikawood, giza plains and azenfield.
Tey Were All In TA I Believe, Some In XII And In A2, Problem I Have With Joining The TA World Is That You Get To CHOSE Where The Places Are, Which Makes It Difficult To Orientate.

Ignoring the Treasure Hunt system and just going by what you see in the world maps, FFTA's Ivalice doesn't line up directly with either of the others, which makes it hard to fit in the reused areas.




Seams are either absent from FFTA2, or have been restructured into the Rifts, but we don't get enough info to tell for sure.
The Seems Got Destroyed In TA, Thus Creating Instability Within The Realm, Possibly A Cataclysm.

The crystals were destroyed, not necessarily the seams. According to FFTA lore, the crystals were originally created inside the seams, indicating that the seams existed before the crystals, and, since they are points of dimensional instability, would likely exist after the crystals were gone. If anything, with the world threads destroyed, one woudl expect the seams to be more active.




Although I can't help but notice that it was mysteriously absent from the library when Luso returned to his world. Also, why would Mewt have another magic book? Did he collect them at some point, hoping to find a way back to Ivalice? Or did the book move on its own, gravitating to a place where it could take Luso (who was chosen by the Grimoire of the Rift), to Ivalice, and then, once its purpose was fulfilled, it left?
I Like The Mewt Collects Them Idea :P We Was Always A Bookworm.
Plus, It's Revealed In The Story That There Are Several Grimoires, Illua Had One, And Lezaford Hinted At More. So Why Shouldn't They Exist In Mewt's World Aswell?

Oh, granted, they probably exist in Mewt's world. It's why they exist in Mewt's library that's troubling me, unless he did hunt them down. Which I think he might have done at one point. Given the way he reminisces about Ivalice in his end-game scene in FFTA2, I think he might have tried to get back at one point.




Um, yeah, I guess I'm writing text walls again. Sorry. I just seem to get a bit carried away with these games. I have no idea why.
Ditto. Cept, Mine Are Pure Theory.


p.s. Sorry For The Grammar/Spelling Mistakes And Excessive Caps.

Eh, I'll live.