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Loony BoB
08-31-2009, 11:52 AM
What are the better tanks for the higher levels? I've got a L19 MNK and a L33 WAR so if neither of those will be any use then obviously I need to look to one of the new jobs available to me...

Levian
08-31-2009, 12:37 PM
While WAR is no longer the best tank, it's still a good DD! but if you want to be the tank then maybe PLD is the way for you to go.

Loony BoB
08-31-2009, 12:39 PM
I suppose I could always be a backup tank. I just figured that since WAR has Provoke, it's a good thing to have as a sub so you can tank effectively. I don't mind being a DD either, really, but I like to have the ability to tank if required because with Danielle being a healer and me being a tank, it makes organising parties really easy. xD

Having said that, I don't know how long Danielle will stay a healer as I understand they use RDM as healer in the later levels. o_x

Del Murder
08-31-2009, 07:17 PM
White mage is still the standard healer. People use RDM for healer in the later levels because they have virtually unlimited MP regeneration and the party takes steps to minimize damage taken by using ninja shadows.

Paladin is the standard tank, and the best tank in most situations. People use NIN tank when leveling because ninjas don't take a lot of damage and therefore don't need to be healed.

WAR and MNK can probably tank well enough but it requires some skill and knowledge of the job, and I don't know much about those jobs. A second voke is always good for emergencies and setting up SATA, I do know that.

Eleni and I leveled WHM and PLD to 75 our first time around and it was easy to make our own parties. I definitely recommend it!

Dante WolfWood
08-31-2009, 07:34 PM
MNKs make horrible tanks, at least they did to me. the only two valuable tanks at that time Were PLD and NIN, IMO playing as a healer (RDM). They made my job a whole lot easier. it could have changed by now though.

I don't see why WAR wouldn't work, seeing as it was the first tank, but it does require alot of skill from the whole party. a Good PLD could survive with a mediocre party but if your a WAR, and your healer sucks....good night.

Miriel
08-31-2009, 08:25 PM
Yeah, maybe it was because we made our own parties a lot of the times, but I never had an issue with people wanting a RDM over a WHM. I mean, I always hear about people demanding RDMs but I've never felt unwanted as a WHM. The opposite actually.

Mirage
08-31-2009, 08:31 PM
war/nin is probably about about as good as nin/war whenever the two have access to the same utsusemi spells. This means from war24 to war36, and at war 74/75. War doesn't have as good natural evasion as ninja, but they have more HP and a but more defence. They can also wear more defence gear than ninja and use defender. However, war/nin tanks in exp/merit parties usually just gear for damage dealing and rely solely on utsusemi.

When a warrior doesn't have both utsusemi spells, another viable option is dualtanking, where one war/nin grabs hate whenever the other war/nin is out of shadows. This requires the two to have good knowledge about how much hate they're generating, so that they can easily bounce hate between them with a simple provoke.

If you enjoy tanking, then PLD is probably a good job for you. They will take considerably less damage than war, and will be able to block with their shields far more often than warrior can. They also get cure spells that will increase their survivability at the same time as they increase hate on you. You also get other spells that increase hate, such as Flash.

WAR subjob is probably the most used subjob for PLD in exp parties, so your WAR33 won't be wasted.

PLD/DNC can also be fun for soloing certain monsters that most other melee jobs can't solo. It won't be fast, but you can get the job done :p.

I've also seen some PLDs sub NIN at higher levels, geared for damage dealing. If you can still keep hate, it's probably not a too bad idea. It should let you increase your damage output more than you decrease your tanking capabilities.


The reason monks aren't too good as tanks is that while they have lots of HP, they also have low defence. This means more damage taken, which means more healing required. They could sub nin like war does, but they won't get a provoke ability like war/nin gets, meaning they'll have a harder time keeping hate.

Del Murder
08-31-2009, 10:26 PM
Yeah dual war/nin works pretty well since each can act as tank and effective DD. As long as you work fluidly together it should make for a pretty solid setup.

WHM will always be in demand because Cure V and Raise III are pretty awesome spells. It's new abilities make it a lot better too. WHM probably got the best update that any job has gotten in the last couple years (besides maybe SAM with the 2h update).

Ouch!
09-01-2009, 01:32 AM
Demand for RDM over WHM for healing roles, I find, is primarily only in merit parties because having a RDM allows for minimal (and frequently non-existent) downtime between mobs allowing for maximum exp. chains.

Using scholar as a sub job goes a long way for MP conservation on WHM, and having Sublimation (stores a reserve of MP for future consumption by gradually draining HP) past level 70 also helps bridge the gap, but a WHM will never be able to regenerate MP at the rate a RDM can. As Del Money mentioned, though, Cure V and Raise III make WHM invaluable as main healers in missions, quests, endgame, etc. They're the superior healer in just about any situation which doesn't require them to go non-stop for two hours.

Neither WAR nor MNK are really viable as a main tank at higher levels. MNK's viability dwindles much earlier than that of WAR, although with specific gear set-ups, MNK/NIN is pretty awesome in certain situations. WAR/NIN works in merit parties, but I wouldn't want one tanking any particularly strong mobs. WAR/NIN is similar. It works in certain situations better than other, but it won't ever measure up to NIN or PLD. While WAR has more over-all viability for tanking, it's more relegated (and very effectively I might add) to a damage dealing role.

As for whether you go NIN or PLD, it's up to you. I'm not even going to pretend that I'm not biased against NIN tanks. I think the idea is an absolute joke. While having the advantage of shrugging off damage completely through the use of utsusemi, NIN has a much more difficult time actually maintaining enmity on the enemy. Even with the introduction of the new job abilities Innin and Yonin, I find that more often than not, it's an uphill struggle for a NIN to establish and maintain hate on the enemy. That's not to say it can't be done--I know of many examples of people who are very good at keeping hate. The problem is mostly that it's just comparatively very difficult.

I much prefer PLD. As far as pure damage negation goes, the only job that comes close to PLD is a fully buffed RDM. Ever since Square Enix buffered shield proc rates and skilling, PLD has become a monster, and they've just made it more and more monstrous since then. Curing yourself not only adds to your survivability, but it's another source of large bursts of hate aside from Provoke (from your WAR sub) and Flash (PLD level 37). You've also got Rampart and Sentinel. /WAR will give you Defender on top of that, even. Reprisal makes PLD's shield even more awesome than before, too. PLD is, while perhaps not the end-all-be-all tank of FFXI, the preferred tank job in almost every circumstance.

As a Galka PLD, you'd be a brick wall. Your main loss would be in the form of a small MP pool, but you'll be better at soaking up the big hits better than anyone else.

Mirage
09-01-2009, 01:55 AM
I also think being a pld tank is going to be much nicer on your economy than being a nin tank.

Loony BoB
09-01-2009, 11:34 AM
Thankyou for your help. :D Any advice that you can collectively give Danielle for her Mithra WHM (she's also interested in the Summoner job) would be neat. Also, I take it if I do go with WAR all the way to 75 then I can be used as an effective DD anyway... but yeah, I'll try to take both PLD and WAR to 75 over time and then see how I enjoy it. I think I'd rather enjoy messing around in non-endgame-stuff than have a job I don't enjoy doing at all >_> But I'm sure I'll have fun. I always do when partying with talkative and amusing people. :D We should get Weiner registered here :p

KentaRawr!
09-01-2009, 12:31 PM
You should do whatever you feel like, BoB. :p But ah well.

If Weiner came here that'd be awesome.

Mirage
09-01-2009, 02:45 PM
Summoner is a viable subjob for white mage, so it won't be a bad idea to level it a bit. Summoners are sort often asked to main heal though, at least in the first half of the game, because healers are more needed :p.

Miriel
09-01-2009, 08:27 PM
I hate when people ask you to main heal as a SMN. =/

Summoner is an amazingly fun job. One of the best things I have ever done in this game is to successfully beat the avatars in the level 20 avatar battles. That was a blast.

Rostum
09-02-2009, 12:13 AM
war/nin is probably about about as good as nin/war whenever the two have access to the same utsusemi spells.

Highly disagree as far as tanking goes.

Mirage
09-02-2009, 12:26 AM
I hate when people ask you to main heal as a SMN. =/

Summoner is an amazingly fun job. One of the best things I have ever done in this game is to successfully beat the avatars in the level 20 avatar battles. That was a blast.

Yeah I know many summoners don't like it. I'm just saying that people will ask you to now and then, so be ready for it if you want exp from those parties.

Ouch!
09-02-2009, 03:11 AM
Thankyou for your help. :D Any advice that you can collectively give Danielle for her Mithra WHM (she's also interested in the Summoner job) would be neat.
BLM and SMN are both passable subjobs for WHM (BLM for increased MP) and SMN past level 50 for the auto-refresh job trait. However, since SCH's release, nothing will ever come close to WHM/SCH. Light Arts offers a 10% MP cost reduction to white magic, 10% reduction to recast and casting timers, and also a few other abilities which reduce MP cost and casting time dramatically. At level 70, access to Sublimation which allows you to store a virtual MP pool makes /SCH the end-all-be-all of WHM subs.

As for SMN, you're almost always /WHM, mostly because the ability to support heal will trump just about anything else you're going to get from a support job. As mentioned, people do try and put SMN/WHM in a main healing role at lower levels. Despite the massive amounts of MP SMN has to offer, with /WHM, you're always a cure spell behind (Cure II at level 22? Awful!), and this comes with huge penalties to the party as a whole. Luckily, astral burn parties are becoming more popular, and if you can get the people together for them, they're fairly easy to organize and not especially time consuming. The major problem with astral burns is the severe penalties they inflict on your ability to gain skill points in summoning magic, but, then again, you have to sit on your ass summoning over and over to cap that anyway (hint: use a script).

Mirage
09-02-2009, 03:31 AM
Another hint: Don't tell anyone ingame that you're using a script. :)

Ouch!
09-02-2009, 03:46 AM
Another hint: Don't tell anyone ingame that you're using a script. :)
This is key.

Mirage
09-02-2009, 05:06 AM
war/nin is probably about about as good as nin/war whenever the two have access to the same utsusemi spells.

Highly disagree as far as tanking goes.

You're right, i had my brain hung up in exp/merit party mode.

Loony BoB
09-02-2009, 01:29 PM
Danielle will probably not mind healing considering she's a WHM at the moment and seems to enjoy the role well enough. I guess we'll be a SUM/WHM or WHM/SUM for Danielle and PLD/WAR or WAR/??? for me depending on how we feel (or, of course, what is needed).

Ouch!
09-03-2009, 07:19 AM
If you two don't plan on exploring the wonderful world of endgame, WHM/SMN will be passable as a support job. Just keep in mind that if you ever do plan to foray beyond into any sort of endgame event, Danielle will get quite a bit of flack without having SCH leveled as a support job.

The Final Fantasy XI community is very demanding when it comes to support jobs. Exploring alternate support jobs, while fun, is usually not permissible. It's an attitude some find off-putting. My personal approach to it is that it's acceptable to experiment with support jobs as long as everyone you're partying with don't mind (a rare occurrence). As such, I usually leave experimenting to solo play.

Some might argue, "I don't pay $12.95 a month to have people tell me how to play the game!" Others argue, "I don't pay $12.95 a month to have other people waste my time with sub-optimal job combination." I, personally, tend to fall into the latter category. I encourage experimentation, but not at the expense of others' time.

At any rate, my point is that while SMN is certainly a good choice for a sub, it's not the best, and she'll probably, at some point, get flack for it.

As far as potential support jobs for WAR go. At early levels you'll get by with /MNK. I don't see that very much at high levels unless people are feeling particularly nostalgic. /THF has its place, although that's fairly rare as well. These days, it's /NIN if you expect to be pulling hate and taking a few hits or /SAM if you just want raw damage potential.

xXsarahXx
09-03-2009, 10:23 AM
I hate when people ask you to main heal as a SMN. =/

Summoner is an amazingly fun job. One of the best things I have ever done in this game is to successfully beat the avatars in the level 20 avatar battles. That was a blast.

Im looking to do my summoner quest myself, always fancied it.
My friend said that up until level 20 is dire though.

I was lvling my Drg and ive gotten fed up for now so im lvling Dnc, i love it :D

Ouch!
09-03-2009, 11:12 AM
I hate when people ask you to main heal as a SMN. =/

Summoner is an amazingly fun job. One of the best things I have ever done in this game is to successfully beat the avatars in the level 20 avatar battles. That was a blast.

Im looking to do my summoner quest myself, always fancied it.
My friend said that up until level 20 is dire though.

I was lvling my Drg and ive gotten fed up for now so im lvling Dnc, i love it :D
Most jobs are fairly easy to level to 20 these days. The biggest problem with SMN is that if it's your first job to 75, you're short-changing yourself by not having access to the avatars before level 20 when you can do the capped battles. Even then, you can't get Fenrir and Diabolos from those battles.

I've always viewed SMN as a second job at minimum since you can't even get all your avatars unless you can do the prime battles. I suppose you could have people do them for you, but that just takes the fun out of it. Then again, I'll not hesitate t admit to being something of an elitist as well.

I wouldn't be able to bring myself to level SMN unless I'd already completed the prime battles to have access to all the avatars from level one.

Loony BoB
09-03-2009, 01:40 PM
What I've learned in this thread is that if Miriel comes to Midgardsormr, it's not to play with Ouch. :p

Miriel
09-03-2009, 06:48 PM
I wouldn't be able to bring myself to level SMN unless I'd already completed the prime battles to have access to all the avatars from level one.

See, I feel that cheapens the experience, so much. I feel like Summoner is one of those rare jobs in the game where actually becoming a Summoner is a real journey and a challenge. And it's FUN. Doing the prime battles under a different job just isn't the same. It's kind of like cheating.

It takes ages to get your Summoner ruby, even more time to complete the quest to get the job, and then you have the amazing one-on-one battles with each of the avatars where you either make them your bitch and they bow down to you, or else you die trying. xD It's really a great experience, and the last component of a lengthy quest. Being a lvl 75/someotherjob and just knocking out the primes real quick isn't the same. What a boring way to do things. Talk about taking the fun out of it. =/

20 levels is nothing. Especially these days, you can bang that out real quick. Why cheat yourself of a great experience just so you can claim to be all uber prepared summoner from lvl 1?

Ouch!
09-03-2009, 08:48 PM
I wouldn't be able to bring myself to level SMN unless I'd already completed the prime battles to have access to all the avatars from level one.

See, I feel that cheapens the experience, so much. I feel like Summoner is one of those rare jobs in the game where actually becoming a Summoner is a real journey and a challenge. And it's FUN. Doing the prime battles under a different job just isn't the same. It's kind of like cheating.

It takes ages to get your Summoner ruby, even more time to complete the quest to get the job, and then you have the amazing one-on-one battles with each of the avatars where you either make them your bitch and they bow down to you, or else you die trying. xD It's really a great experience, and the last component of a lengthy quest. Being a lvl 75/someotherjob and just knocking out the primes real quick isn't the same. What a boring way to do things. Talk about taking the fun out of it. =/

20 levels is nothing. Especially these days, you can bang that out real quick. Why cheat yourself of a great experience just so you can claim to be all uber prepared summoner from lvl 1?
I'm more concerned with the lack of Fenrir and Diabolos. If you want to do those battles on your own, you're going to be missing them far beyond level 20.

I would also offer that soloing prime battles is it's own kind of fun, but not many jobs can manage that anyway.

Rostum
09-06-2009, 01:06 PM
Eh, the avatars aren't really worth having until later anyway. But I don't really see what's wrong with having them all by level 1 - I did and it didn't stop me from enjoying the job (when I'm not trying to main heal). To say it just "cheapens" the experience is not a view that should be enforced on others as people enjoy playing a job class for different reasons.

Also, doing the prime battles on a different job is fun if you go in solo'ing or duo'ing. :p

WildRaubtier
09-06-2009, 01:06 PM
So guys we were talking about tanks, right?

From what I hear, BLU is another job that can tank well. I've only tried it once (loldunes), but it acts kind of like a PLD with Cocoon and Auto-Regen/Refresh, as well as whatever else you want to tack onto it.

PLD/XXX is the best tank. X is usually equal to WAR, but can be different depending on what you're up to. A lot of endgame stuff will require /NIN.

NIN is pretty horrible during lower levels (I'm doing that now) and really doesn't get the right sort of tools to hold hate effectively ever. I hear good things about /DRK but I've never seen it.

MNK's role as tank is usually limited to "first voke" (/WAR only!) in pre-colibri parties that have a THF.

SAM becomes an option at 35 with Seigan. It works a lot like a low-level NIN tank that can counter and generally isn't useless hate or damage-wise.

WAR can tank for the same reason it's the main subjob choice of most tanks.

But yeah PLD and NIN are considered the central tanks of the game for a reason. Pick one (PLD) and go with it.

Loony BoB
09-06-2009, 01:32 PM
PLD up to L14 at the moment =]

Rostum
09-06-2009, 11:25 PM
Paladin is great fun to level up, imo. :D

oddler
09-07-2009, 12:41 PM
I agree; it easily became my favorite as soon as I started partying with it.

Loony BoB
09-07-2009, 02:29 PM
Yeah, it's been fun so far! Haven't had a party with it yet, but hope to sometime either tonight or tomorrow.

Miriel
09-08-2009, 12:36 AM
Eh, the avatars aren't really worth having until later anyway. But I don't really see what's wrong with having them all by level 1 - I did and it didn't stop me from enjoying the job (when I'm not trying to main heal). To say it just "cheapens" the experience is not a view that should be enforced on others as people enjoy playing a job class for different reasons.

Also, doing the prime battles on a different job is fun if you go in solo'ing or duo'ing. :p

Omg, stating opinion isn't enforcing anything. xD And there's nothing wrong with having all the avatars from lvl 1. I just think it's more fulfilling to go about collecting your avatars as a Summoner than as a BLM or PLD or some other random job. Which is why Fenrir & Diabolos bother me. They don't even give you the option to do lvl 20 battles with them. Lame.

Rostum
09-08-2009, 10:31 AM
Omg, stating opinion isn't enforcing anything. xD And there's nothing wrong with having all the avatars from lvl 1. I just think it's more fulfilling to go about collecting your avatars as a Summoner than as a BLM or PLD or some other random job. Which is why Fenrir & Diabolos bother me. They don't even give you the option to do lvl 20 battles with them. Lame.

Omg, undies in a bunch. :D

Tanks are cool.

Loony BoB
09-08-2009, 10:45 AM
Got to play tank for the first time yesterday, still getting the hang of it but it's pretty rare that I lost hate so that's good. We happened to party with a pair of summoners, too, so Danielle has had a taste of what she'll get to do. Also, a L75 SMN/WHM Danielle met said that he never has trouble getting L75 parties so Danielle seems happy enough!

Miriel
09-09-2009, 01:18 AM
Omg, undies in a bunch. :D


OMG, I KNOW RIGHT?!

I really don't understand it when people are so strict about certain things in the game. Just do whatever you want, and get the most fun out of the game instead about being concerned with being all uber and having all the crazy gear or summons, or the exact job/subjob combo.

Seriously BoB, don't worry about whether parties will want you or not. I never had a problem getting parties as a WHM, never had a single person whine that they wanted a RDM or a SCH instead, never had anyone mention the fact that my summoner didn't have Diabolos or that my mage didn't have astral rings.

I think when people are all, "BEWARE!! YOU WILL NOT GET PARTIES IF YOU DO NOT CONFORM!" are overstating things. Especially cause you and Smitten play together, it makes things a ton easier cause you'll always have a partner! :)

Levian
09-09-2009, 02:04 AM
I really don't understand it when people are so strict about certain things in the game. Just do whatever you want, and get the most fun out of the game instead about being concerned with being all uber and having all the crazy gear or summons, or the exact job/subjob combo.


Hear, hear!

Felt like a robot trying to play my job in the same way that every other player with that job had done before me, it's pretty boring being told every little thing you have to do. And I'm especially irked when someone "sighs dejectedly" when I'm not entirely there.

Got my SMN up to 10 today, and skillups to 20. :] definitely gonna solo the other avatars when I reach 20. Sounds like fun.

Ouch!
09-09-2009, 05:05 AM
I think its unfair to preach that sort of approach to Final Fantasy XI, Miriel. In my experience, saying such an attitude is not only acceptable but effective is rather misleading. Nobody expects someone to have the best gear on their first time to 75, and standards are certainly lower than ever due to the implementation of Level Sync. People can (and have) reached 75 without ever stepping foot outside of Qufim.

I don't understand the attitude of "don't worry whether or not parties will want you!" This seems counter intuitive in game that's very much dependent on your ability to cooperate with others. On some level, this means conforming to certain standards.

As I've mentioned earlier, experimentation is to be encouraged when you're sure everyone involved is alright with it. More often than not, this means when you're soloing or duoing unless you've got a large group of people who don't care about efficacy (not something I encounter often in FFXI).

Certain jobs get more leeway than others. They all fall into one of three categories: main healers, support jobs, and tanks. You can be poorly geared and in general sub-optimal and get away with it simply on the basis that for a party to function, such jobs are absolutely necessary.

That said, I think encouraging disregard for standards of efficacy is as destructive to a new player's experience in FFXI as it is helpful. I don't know about you, but I don't see many people in FFXI as being forgiving of truly sub-par gear or awkward support job selections as you seem to suggest. In fact, more often than not, I expect them to be complete and utter jerks about it. In my experience, FFXI has a very elitist community. Expecting otherwise is silly.

Mirage
09-09-2009, 05:47 AM
Yeah, do what you want when you're with friends or soloing, no one cares :p. A party is different because you're playing with other people who teamed up with you to level up their jobs. When I start searching for an exp party, the main reason i do this is to get exp at a fast rate. Crazy job/sub combinations have been tested dozens of times before, and there's no need for each new player to find out if a hexagon-shaped wheel works as well as a round one. If you really do want to test out such a wheel though, you shouldn't do it in a situation that makes 5 other players reach their objectives 20% slower.


I'm not saying everyone should have the same subjob and the absolutely best gear available at all times. All I'm saying is that people should use sensible gear, and subjobs that actually make the class you're playing better at what it's meant to do. Far from all of them do.

Del Murder
09-09-2009, 06:34 AM
No. You should play the way you want. If people don't like it they won't play with you. Simple as that. The elitist attitude of this game is even more encouraged by people who just accept it as given. There will always be plenty of people out there with the generic job combinations for you to play with. It's entirely up to everyone who they play with and how they play. No one should play a way they don't want to just because it's 'accepted'. If you don't like it and would rather play the standard efficient way you are free to do so with someone else.

We're not talking about crazy stuff like WHM/WAR (though if you want to do that, go for it), ouchie, we're talking (or at least I am) about the people who nitpick everything to the last detail to make you think you need certain things at certain times to be of any use. Or that WHM doesn't get parties. Or that SMN needs all the avatars at level 1. Those just aren't true. And the people who get so pissed because another person lotted their item, or messed up in a mission. Like, losing friends over it pissed. People need to mellow out more.

Darkwolf090
09-09-2009, 10:34 AM
So this is awesome, I have seen alot of WARs take up the tank arms again at 75... WAR/DNC can tank very well to be honest I was surprised but ya it can go figure?

Rostum
09-09-2009, 11:49 AM
WAR/DNC is alright in Campaign, but other than that it isn't too efficient outside of solo'ing.

Loony BoB
09-09-2009, 02:26 PM
It's weird how you guys keep mentioning elitists vs. more laid back people - the most elitist person I've come across so far is Ouch xDD *runs* Really, almost everyone I've met has been really insanely nice. Hell, Danielle jokingly said "money for the poor" the other day when someone passed by - and they gave her 20k. Which is neat, because she still owes me 26k :shifty:

I party somewhat regularly with Danielle, Lev, Shawtiie, Zyphus, Weiner (not EoFFer) and whoever else we come across at the time that is interested (Darkrein/Windowpane or just random people who are seeking) and nobody's really cared much about how we do it so long as we're all having fun. I'm almost more there to make friends than I am to do well in the game - and the friends I'm making are neat. :D

I think we'll always play the game how we want to because it's pointless to do otherwise. If people express disappointment that I haven't yet got something, for example the Kazahm pass or whatever, then I get motivated to get it. If people outright tell me that I have to do something, I'm less inclined to do it because it becomes work rather than play. I only work if I'm getting paid ;) I guess it often shows that people want to play the game with you when, if they want you to get something, they help you get it. That's awesome.

Ouch!
09-10-2009, 05:45 AM
It's weird how you guys keep mentioning elitists vs. more laid back people - the most elitist person I've come across so far is Ouch xDD *runs*
I don't try to hide my elitism. I'm a whore for great gear, and I enjoy being a fucking awesome RDM. That said, you'd be surprised how mild my elitism is compared to a large portion of the other people involved in endgame.

The reason I don't encourage experimentation widely is mainly for one reason: it hampers your ability to get things done in the game. Naturally having better gear or a more efficient sub will make things easier, but that's not what I mean. Let me try and use an example which doesn't include an "extreme" deviation like WHM/WAR.

I know someone who likes to role play in FFXI. This governed everything she did, including what jobs she would play as. She limited herself to jobs which used magic. This meant that while she would not allow herself to level WAR, she decided to level PLD anyway. She made it to about level 60 using PLD/RDM--a combination that proves very effective in certain circumstances, but is largely more trouble than it's worth in exp. parties--by trioing with two of her friends. PLD/RDM is very popular in a lot of situations. I helped a friend experiment with it in an exp. party ages ago before it had become not only acceptable but perhaps even encouraged to have the support job readily available. The results of our experimentation, by the way, were that while it can certainly work, the lack of defender and provoke make it more trouble than its worth for exping.

First of all, trioing to 60 on PLD is a laborious task. It takes effin' forever, but she was happy to do it because she was doing it with two of her friends. I encourage this sort of experimentation. She wasn't wasting anyone's time except her own and those who consented to have their time wasted (and I imagine it did waste an awful lot of time compared to regular exp. parties on PLD/WAR).

However, after she got to about level 60, it became unbearably slow for one of her compatriots, so he stopped going. She and the other person were not able to make progress as a duo, so she attempted to find parties on her PLD/RDM. She would get invites to parties and they would ask her to change her support job to /WAR. She would explain she didn't have the job, and more often than not, people would just drop her from the party.

She would get very upset by this, and she stopped talking to me after I asked her, "What did you expect?"

When I preach a certain level of conformity, I preach it on the basis that it's the only way to really get things done in the game. If you're willing to take the long way around and make things harder on yourself if you find experimenting more fun, I wish you good will and good luck. I just think that people should be aware of the potential consequences of deviating from the norm. If you're willing to accept those consequences and not bitch about it, fine. Unfortunately, in most cases I've encountered, people who want to deviate from the norm and experiment also like to bitch that people aren't willing to play with them. As I've stated before: I don't mind if you waste your time being inefficient, but don't waste mine in the process.

It just seems awfully odd to try and deviate from what is accepted by the community in a game in which you're largely dependent on the community to get much of anything done. FFXI's game design, one which doesn't merely encourage cooperation in large numbers, but demands it seems ill-suited to any significant experimentation.

Del Murder
09-10-2009, 07:30 AM
I like how you think anything that isn't the most efficient combination is a waste of time. It's a game! The whole thing is a waste of time.

Loony BoB
09-10-2009, 02:19 PM
As I've said, the moment I find ourselves having to level up jobs we don't want to level up and having it become a chore is probably going to be the moment we stop playing. :p For now, everyone has been lovely to us so I've not experienced this apparent slagging off for not having a certain subjob. So we keep playing :D

WildRaubtier
09-10-2009, 02:19 PM
I like how you think anything that isn't the most efficient combination isn't a waste of time. Honestly, think about that for a second.

FFXI is a game that, perhaps unfortunately, requires some level of grinding to get to the fun bits (If you think having fun is a waste of time, please see your doctor). As Ouch said, it's fine to experiment if that's your thing and you're on your own or with people who are okay with it, but when you start demanding that everyone should compromise for your benefit, then you're just a plain jerk.

Loony BoB
09-10-2009, 02:22 PM
Grinding to get to the fun bits? I find pretty much everything to be fun so long as you're doing it with people who are, you know, fun. :p It's like chatting, but with something else to do while you do it. :D

If I wanted to have fun without fun people I'd just play a single-player FF rather than do anything on FFXI at all.

A waste of time isn't about efficiency, for me. A waste of time is spending time on something you don't enjoy. Therefore, why spend time leveling a job you don't want when you can have fun leveling a job you do want? I would rather sit around doing bugger all with a couple of friends than doing any kind of endgame thing with a bunch of anal people who demand many things of me. >_> I know a few other people like this too, as they have L75 jobs but are happy to level up with us lower-level (even sub L10, they just power level us while we solo xD) people despite that.

WildRaubtier
09-10-2009, 02:35 PM
Leveling in FFXI is grinding. You're only doing it so you can get to the good bits. This is the same for a lot of RPGs. For all the times you do get some decent people to while away the monotony with, there'll be at least twice that amount where you're sitting on auto-pilot.

That's not to say there's never any exciting bits in XP! Spiders one-shotting a PLD tank are a good example of how to wake everyone up very quickly for some on-the-fly survival measures. I've never not had fun when that happens!

Loony BoB
09-10-2009, 02:44 PM
I guess I don't have that problem as Shawtiie and Smitzy are practially always online when I am and Lev, Weiner, Windowpane, Darkrein, Kentarourou and others are also often online. And it's on my agenda to get Mirage into our LS too and he's often on when we are. :D

So for me it's spent about 75-90% with friends. The other times I usually just do solo quests rather than leveling.

Ouch!
09-10-2009, 06:43 PM
I like how you think anything that isn't the most efficient combination is a waste of time. It's a game! The whole thing is a waste of time.
I don't view entertaining myself as a waste of time. There are certain things I enjoy doing in FFXI, and there are other things I don't enjoy as much but I put up with because the benefits for doing them in the long run are worth it (or at least I think so). I'm not particularly fond of the grind anymore; I do, however, like the idea of having more options at level 75 for different events. And I do think sub-optimal job combination are wasting my time when I'm grinding, especially when I'm trying to churn out 25,000+ exp. to get to the next level. If someone makes that take longer than it needs to, I'm not likely to be pleased with them.

Loony BoB
09-10-2009, 08:53 PM
But what if they're fun to be around? Or do you play more for the sake of gaming than interacting with others?

Del Murder
09-10-2009, 11:00 PM
I like how you think anything that isn't the most efficient combination isn't a waste of time. Honestly, think about that for a second.

FFXI is a game that, perhaps unfortunately, requires some level of grinding to get to the fun bits (If you think having fun is a waste of time, please see your doctor). As Ouch said, it's fine to experiment if that's your thing and you're on your own or with people who are okay with it, but when you start demanding that everyone should compromise for your benefit, then you're just a plain jerk.
I disagree with everything you've just said. Waste of time is not about efficiency, it's about entertainment. My previous statement was not meant to be taken literally. Of course FFXI isn't a waste of time, otherwise I wouldn't play it.

BoB seems to be playing the right way. He should be the one teaching you guys how to do it. Don't let people get you down with 'ffxi is a grind' or 'you have to be level 75 to do anything fun'. What's fun is subjective. There is fun everywhere in this game. Especially when you already have a friend to play with. Eleni and I did tons of fun stuff before we got to level 75. In fact, she played for 3 years without having a level 75 character, and I played for a whole year before that even became a priority.

Demanding compromise works both ways. Demanding a PLD/RDM to change to PLD/WAR is demanding compromise for your benefit. It is only more acceptable because it is the more conventional way to play. You are always free to not play with the people who don't comform to conventional standards. We all know there are plenty out there who will conform. Just don't make it sound like there is only one goal, one way to have fun, and one way to play this game. There are several, and the narrow minded approach people seem to have in regard to FFXI is really disappointing.

Some people are in it for the exp/hour, or the gear hoarding, but some are in it for the experience. 10 years from now when all the servers go down and your precious levels and gear are obliterated, what are you going look fondly upon more? The fact that you got a Ridill, or that one time you partied with the crazy PLD/RDM? It's up to you which you would care about more, but I know what I would pick.

I would take a party of Eleni, BoB, smitten, Lev, and Ouch, as any job combinations, over any other 5. Ouch can even come as his dream job combo, MNK/SMN.

Rostum
09-11-2009, 12:18 AM
There is no one 'right' way to play this game, it's an MMORPG and therefor is open to different types of gamers. If someone wants to be the most efficient player, then so be it - that's what they enjoy. If someone just wants to play with a small circle of friends then that's cool too (but don't expect to experience much towards higher levels).

I personally believe you shouldn't limit yourself to just a close nit group of people to play with; though I am not saying to abandon that, because it is a great way to get into the game. There's usually what? 2000-3000 people on a server during prime time? I've made a lot of friends over the last 5 or so years from doing pick up group stuff and joining end-game linkshells.

All I am really saying is that you play it how you want, but don't get upset if others don't agree with it. Remember this game has been running since around 2001 and people have already experimented to great detail and they have already figured out the most "efficient' way of doing this; this means there's not a lot of room to explore if you join up with random people or do any end-game stuff (though I have been in a few groups that are so easy going). But that isn't stopping you from exploring with friends.

I am similar to Zach in that I love having a wide range of subjobs ( Omecle - Midgardsormr - FFXIAH.com (http://www.ffxiah.com/player.php?id=264656) ) but I'm not so crazy about gear like Zach is. Silly Zach!

:)

Loony BoB
09-11-2009, 12:41 AM
For what it's worth, I don't limit myself - I play with Danielle & Shawtiie + 3 others. Tonight I've partied with about eight people I don't know and experienced my first ever person-who-infuriated-me. xD They just... kept getting aggro. Constantly. Running right next to gobs. Apparently it was their first time not using a L75 char for a while and they didn't realise how far they had to go to avoid gobs... but... really. After two deaths, don't you think you should hug the wall like we all do? :( Oh well! We had fun anyway. And met some really funky people. xD

Ouch!
09-11-2009, 03:41 AM
All I'm suggesting is that the attitude of, "I'll play how I want to play, screw what everyone else thinks," has a high probability in being restrictive later down the road. I personally see it as constricting to the point of leaving you unable to do much outside of very low-man content and leveling up various jobs over and over. To me, it just feels like you're shortchanging yourself and barring yourself from a large portion of what FFXI has to offer.

For the record, I do enjoy to experiment, especially with RDM. I have BLM, WHM, SCH, DRK, NIN and BLU subs leveled already for RDM. I'm planning on leveling PLD and DNC at some point to try them out as well. I'm in the process of building a melee set which has absolutely no purpose beyond my own personal amusement. I was in a party of BRD/WHM, COR/RNG, DNC/NIN, RDM/WHM, and RDM/NIN as the RDM/NIN being the main DD. All I'm trying to say is that while experimenting and playing around with the game can be a buttload of fun, you will encounter situations where not being prepared to conform will prevent you or hamper your efforts to do something you want.

Del Murder
09-11-2009, 05:03 AM
Aww ouch, how can I stay mad at you.

Ouch!
09-11-2009, 05:13 AM
When I figure out something that makes people stay mad at me, I'll let you know. The arrogance card isn't nearly as effective as I might have hoped. Flat out telling people, "I don't even pretend to like you," doesn't have a high success rate either, apparently!

Loony BoB
09-11-2009, 10:29 AM
The funny thing about this thread is, despite all of this debate, Danielle has SMN & SCH to go with her WHM (and has leveled BLM & RDM to at least L10) and I have PLD to go with my WAR (with DRK available and every other base job leveled to at least 10). So I guess we have the 'efficient' jobs anyway. xD

Mirage
09-11-2009, 12:20 PM
She got sch already? Btw /sch is really good i hear.

Loony BoB
09-11-2009, 01:48 PM
Yeah, I watched the cutscene with her. Looked like a bunch of Harry Potter pupils.

Ouch!
09-11-2009, 08:36 PM
WHM/SCH is all sorts of epic and win. Light Arts is your friend. Also, the cutscenes for becoming SCH are pretty lame, but the storyline with the Schultz School when you're getting your SCH artifact armor are pretty epic.

But yeah, I wasn't trying to tell you guys you were doing anything wrong, because I knew despite the desire to experiment, you've both got a lot of the support jobs you need ready to go or at least on the way. I think it's great to experiment when it can work, but it's a good thing to have the other jobs ready to go when you need them as well.

Rostum
09-12-2009, 12:07 AM
Zach is just an elitist. Nothing to see here, move along. :D

Miriel
09-14-2009, 05:45 AM
I think there's a difference between learning how to play the game and play it well, and adhering to a strict set of rules that only a very small "hardcore" percentage of the FFXI population adhere to. I wanted my White Mage to be great, so I made sure to get the proper gear, buy my spells in advance, and skillup my stats. But I wasn't willing to abandon white mage because some people prefer RDM or SCH at the end game levels. That would have been silly.

The reason most of this was brought up in the first place was because someone seems to have put the idea in BoB's head that only certain jobs get parties and if you're not one of those jobs, you're out of luck. I just wanted him to know that personal experience has shown me that this is not true. There are general standards that most people in the game adhere to. White mages heal, warriors attack, etc etc. To go against those things is unusual because then, why even play those jobs? But then there are uber hardcore rules that certain players demand which can quite easily be ignored because chances are, you're not even going to run into too many of those people or those situations where you'll be denied simply because you are not the absolute strategically perfect job/character/player.

There's nothing wrong with wanting your character to be the ultimate. I'm leveling SCH and I'm aware of how beneficial it will be for my white mage. But again, I'm doing it because I want to and not because I feel I'll be excluded if I didn't. I very much doubt that I wouldn't be able to get parties if I stuck with /blm. And anyone who would reject you based on such things is just being unusually picky. And in the 4+ years I've been playing the game, I have run into few such picky people. Most people expect you to be a generally good player. Know what you're doing and don't get people killed. Beyond that people are pretty flexible. Basically, there aren't as many soup nazis in the game as some people make it out to be. :p

Ouch!
09-14-2009, 07:39 AM
Beyond that people are pretty flexible. Basically, there aren't as many soup nazis in the game as some people make it out to be. :p
Honestly, I'm not sure if we're playing the same game anymore. I'm playing the game that discriminated against DRG, DRK, and SAM for years. The game that still discriminates against DNC and PUP. The game that ignores THF beyond level 60. The game that makes BLMs solo to 75 because they doesn't fit into the meleeburn. That's the game I play. What game are you playing?

WildRaubtier
09-14-2009, 08:22 AM
I'm interested in where the idea that WHM isn't preferred at endgame idea came from, too. RDM and SCH are preferable in a meripo, yes (by preferred, I obviously mean lolWHM in meripos), but WHM has always been one of the most in-demand jobs in the game. It all comes back to how jobs are treated by the playerbase. It also doesn't help that WHM is the only MP consuming job that doesn't have any native MP self-restorative abilities. lolSE, lolWHM and lolCalm Mind, etc.

Also, for archival purposes:

they doesn't fit
Man, some elitist YOU turned out to be.

Miriel
09-14-2009, 08:38 AM
People discriminate against dancer? Why? It's such a fun job!

I dunno, maybe it's cause I never got deep into end game stuff. I'm figuring that's where most of the hardcore players focus their energies and where most of the rigid rules come from. I'm not hardcore enough for that aspect of the game. Also, laziness. I'd rather take a nap than do super long end game stuff.

Rostum
09-14-2009, 10:42 AM
I'm interested in where the idea that WHM isn't preferred at endgame idea came from, too.

Any linkshell that doesn't have a few WHM's is a linkshell you should never be in. Not sure where the idea of them not being wanted came from.


People discriminate against dancer? Why? It's such a fun job!

Uselessness in end-game, basically. Well, I only say uselessness in the sense that it has that stigma at this stage (e.g. lolPUP, lolDRG, etc.).



I dunno, maybe it's cause I never got deep into end game stuff. I'm figuring that's where most of the hardcore players focus their energies and where most of the rigid rules come from. I'm not hardcore enough for that aspect of the game. Also, laziness. I'd rather take a nap than do super long end game stuff.

End-game is basically about 70% of this game, so you are missing out on quite a bit. I am not saying this is a bad thing, just letting you know. It's great that you'd rather take a nap, but you can't just discredit the majority of the game and the majority of the game's user base just because you don't agree with it, or don't want to experience it.

Loony BoB
09-14-2009, 11:20 AM
People discriminate against DRG? If that's the case, why do so many people level it after they get L75 jobs which are "approved of" by the masses? First I heard of that one. :p

WildRaubtier
09-14-2009, 04:40 PM
Used to. It was a job played mainly by people who Del Murder likes to play with. And especially favoured by gilsellers too, apparently.

What changed? Colibris.

Colibri are probably everything wrong with party xp dynamics in FFXI. But damned if I can't get 5k/hr soloing them outside whitegate. On DRG LOL

Mirage
09-14-2009, 05:29 PM
Not just colibris changed, they got some considerable buffs all around.

Del Murder
09-14-2009, 06:19 PM
Cbc speaks from an ignorant point of view. I've known plenty of great DRGs and it has nothing to do with colibri. There's nothing wrong with DRG and there never was anything wrong with it. A couple bad eggs probably gave it a bad reputation when the game first started and that had a snowball effect. I started playing after all that crap so I never noticed it except in message boards.

This game is not 70% endgame, it's 100% whatever you make it to be. That is the beauty of this game. Maybe a majority of the added content is related to endgame, but that doesn't mean you're 'missing out' by never doing it. In fact I would say if every day of your week has some end game event scheduled, you are missing out on the fun of doing random :bou::bou::bou::bou: with friends. And if you still have time for that on top of all your end game stuff, then you are probably missing out on the outside world.

I've done end game. It's not all that. Sky and Sea are already boring. Dynamis was boring a long time ago, but my LS is funny as hell so I have a good time there. The Limbus zones are varied enough and there are enough of them that it's still fresh, but I imagine that will get old soon enough. HNMs are a snoozefest, but the LS drama and watching 50 people in a zone scramble for a claim is entertaining at least. Salvage is fun but the rewards reqiure too much work to get. ZNMs are ok when you aren't spamming the same easy ones over and over. Assault is probably my favorite, but not enough people do it since they're all spamming Nyzul. Nyzul was fun but once I got to floor 100 I felt I was done with it. All of this pales in comparison to the random missions/quests/leveling I do with Eleni or other members of my social LS, though.

Levian
09-14-2009, 07:07 PM
This game is not 70% endgame, it's 100% whatever you make it to be.

too true.

Most fun I've ever had in FFXI is when Misfit and I went to Valkurm to PL random parties, both of us being Level 1 WHMs

Loony BoB
09-14-2009, 07:42 PM
xD I have to do something similar to that someday.

Miriel
09-14-2009, 10:02 PM
End-game is basically about 70% of this game, so you are missing out on quite a bit. I am not saying this is a bad thing, just letting you know. It's great that you'd rather take a nap, but you can't just discredit the majority of the game and the majority of the game's user base just because you don't agree with it, or don't want to experience it.

It's 70% of the game for you. I'm not willfully ignoring a vast chunk (as you consider it) of the game simply because I don't agree with it. I just haven't experienced it. I've never felt pressured to experience it, and I've never felt I was missing out because I wasn't experiencing it. And I never actively avoided it, it's just with so much to do in this game, I never got around to it. As soon as I achieved all I wanted with my white mage, I was immediately smitten with DNC and got that ball rolling. And after DNC, I fell in love with the scholar AF and am pursing that. I play the game based on which things interest me at any given time. And mostly, I'm interested in having fun. Getting fabulous gear is fun for sure. So I may get into end game stuff eventually to get pretty things for Eleni. But I have lots to occupy myself with in the meantime.

I have had a thoroughly enjoyable time in FFXI without ever having to do much end game stufft. I've had a ton of fun doing missions and quests and unlocking jobs and leveling those jobs. Doing random stuff with friends, helping out newbies, collecting christmas trees and other sparkly things for my mog house, doing level 1 death runs to and from Jeuno, skilling up club skill to get hexa strike, doing besieged, etc. This game is huge! Tons to do, people to meet, jobs to level, gear to acquire, storylines to explores, and goofy things to do.

If you're doing end game and having fun, props to you. But I made it very clear from the beginning that I was speaking from personal experience and seeing as how I was talking about things like level 1 summons, it should have been pretty clear that I wasn't talking from an end-game stand point.

I truly wasn't aware that vast majority of the FFXI population are heavily into end game stuff. Just didn't know about it. And I guess since I never knew, it never was an issue. And if it's not an issue, who cares?



This game is not 70% endgame, it's 100% whatever you make it to be.

too true.

Most fun I've ever had in FFXI is when Misfit and I went to Valkurm to PL random parties, both of us being Level 1 WHMs

This sounds amazing. :up:

Ouch!
09-14-2009, 10:30 PM
Omecle was merely commenting that "end-game" activities make up a majority of what the game has to offer. There's no need to twist his words like he's disregarding the rest of what the game has to offer. In sheer volume of content, there's more to do at level 75 than there is at any other level in the game. Whether or not you're bored of it doesn't change the fact that it makes up a huge portion of the game's offered content.


I truly wasn't aware that vast majority of the FFXI population are heavily into end game stuff. Just didn't know about it. And I guess since I never knew, it never was an issue. And if it's not an issue, who cares?
When an MMORPG has been out as long as FFXI has (seven years), it's hard to expect that most of the population wasn't involved in end-game. I very rarely encounter people who don't already have a job at level 75, even at the low levels. Part of FFXI's problem is that it hasn't steadily attracted a large population of newer players. This became especially obnoxious before level sync, since there was a huge drop off in the number of parties beyond level 40. People would stop because they were more often than not leveling a support job. I know a few people who quit because the mid-levels used to be so obnoxiously awful.


Cbc speaks from an ignorant point of view. I've known plenty of great DRGs and it has nothing to do with colibri. There's nothing wrong with DRG and there never was anything wrong with it. A couple bad eggs probably gave it a bad reputation when the game first started and that had a snowball effect. I started playing after all that crap so I never noticed it except in message boards.
I can honestly say that Cbc is a bit more accurate than you're giving him credit for, Del. DRG had some serious hurdles overcome before it became a desired job. The biggest one was that call wyvern used to be the DRG's two hour. This severely handicapped the job as a large part of what makes DRG so successful is its wyvern's abilities. I'm fairly certain that Spirit Link, the ability to heal your DRG with your own HP, was also added quite a while after DRG was released. Beyond that, simply because Square Enix are jerks and leave the players to figure everything out, it took an awful long time until people really figured out how different support jobs actually changed the wyvern's job and what breath attacks it would use and when. The update to two-handed weapons was also a huge boost to DRG (as it was for also DRK and SAM). That paired with the advent of the colibri party really did a lot to make sure that DRG had a solidified place in FFXI. It's no longer lolDRG, but for a while it was, and it wasn't just because of a few people who didn't play it very well.

As for DNC, the problem with the job is that while it's perhaps one of the best support jobs for any melee in the game, and is incredibly useful at level 40, the job never really gets anything that makes it stand out beyond that point. At endgame, DNC can't do much of anything that BRD or COR can't do better. I hope it gets the same treatment that other jobs have gotten in the past, because it has a lot of potential, but it has nothing that makes it desirable in any real situation.

PUP doesn't deserve the bad attitude that the community gives it because that thing is seriously broken. It's an absolute powerhouse. The only problem is that the disparity between a good PUP and a bad PUP is absolutely huge. Most PUPs are bad PUPs because the things you need to be a good PUP (mostly equipment for your automaton) are prohibitively expensive. Since most PUPs don't have the money to drop into it, they suffer the same problem that DNC does. They don't stand out. For the most part, they become a watered-down MNK with a pet.

Miriel
09-14-2009, 11:31 PM
Omecle was merely commenting that "end-game" activities make up a majority of what the game has to offer. There's no need to twist his words like he's disregarding the rest of what the game has to offer. In sheer volume of content, there's more to do at level 75 than there is at any other level in the game. Whether or not you're bored of it doesn't change the fact that it makes up a huge portion of the game's offered content.


Oh lordy. What are you talking about Ouch? Seriously, dude what's with the defensiveness?

I shared that fact that in my 4 years of playing the game, I have always had plenty to do, and plenty of fun, and rarely experienced the kind of rigorous discrimination that you all have mentioned. And I made it clear that I never invested in end game stuff where the standards are different as I've already stated. I just think it's completely possible to have a great experience in FFXI without taking up the end game content which is intensely time consuming, strict, and difficult. That's all man. It ain't that deep.




I truly wasn't aware that vast majority of the FFXI population are heavily into end game stuff. Just didn't know about it. And I guess since I never knew, it never was an issue. And if it's not an issue, who cares?
When an MMORPG has been out as long as FFXI has (seven years), it's hard to expect that most of the population wasn't involved in end-game. I very rarely encounter people who don't already have a job at level 75, even at the low levels. Part of FFXI's problem is that it hasn't steadily attracted a large population of newer players. This became especially obnoxious before level sync, since there was a huge drop off in the number of parties beyond level 40. People would stop because they were more often than not leveling a support job. I know a few people who quit because the mid-levels used to be so obnoxiously awful.
Of course people have level 75 characters. That's not what I'm talking about when I talk about end-game. Getting to level 75 isn't end game, that's just... the game. xD But when someone talks about how 70% of the game is end game stuff, I wasn't thinking in terms of pure content, I was thinking in terms of how many people actually spend the bulk of their time doing specifically end game stuff.

Like I said, there's so much to do in this game. And if you want to fight gods and whatnot, then making strategically sound choices in jobs and subjobs is a good thing. If that is what you want to do. But if you want to just have fun leveling a certain job because it's a job you have fun playing, it's silly to change your plans based on the fact that you might be doing dynamis once a week and your WHM would be overlooked for a RDM.

Your own wishes and desires should be considered first, and THEN factor in community standards and expectations. Ultimately, whatever you do in this game I feel should be motivated from a desire to have fun. People have fun doing different things. But I don't think you should sacrifice your own entertainment just so you can be exactly what a specific group of people want you to be for a very specific event on very specific days.

Del Murder
09-14-2009, 11:48 PM
You're the one who's twisting things, Ouch!! But I've reached my limit of long ass posts I care to make on the subject.

Hasn't Call Wyvern been a 20min ability for longer than it hasn't been? As long as I've been playing at least. The lolDRG mentality was still in effect at that time too, for really no reason.

I've seen a DNC main heal a melee party in Dynamis, while also giving us the very cool Haste Samba.

I really think you guys read too much into this stuff.

Mirage
09-15-2009, 12:29 AM
One of the major annoyances with the wyvern was not only that it could easily die, and then you'd be screwed until the 2hour was ready again, but that also couldn't enter any towns or non-combat areas without losing it as well.

DRG has been able to keep up with most other DDs for a very long time, with the wyvern adding damage on top of that. They've always had very good accuracy, and a huge number of enemies are weak to piercing damage, which polearm inflicts. They also have A+ in that weapon.

I've also got the impression that drg got a bad reputation because *very* many players leveled it because the AF armor's cool looks. However, it's :bou::bou::bou::bou: to fulltime in, and adds very little to your damage dealing abilities in a party situation.

WildRaubtier
09-15-2009, 05:06 AM
DRG's 2hr was changed in the December 2005 update. It gained Accuracy Bonus around the same time. Did that change the stigma? Nope.

Like I said, Colibri are the only reason DRG is somewhat free of stigma these days. It has nothing to do with the job itself, or the players playing it. In fact, there's still a lot of crappy DRGs out there. Mainly the people who "don't believe" in macroing gear swaps. I cringe everytime I see a Drachen Armet.

Ouch!
09-15-2009, 05:41 AM
Omecle was merely commenting that "end-game" activities make up a majority of what the game has to offer. There's no need to twist his words like he's disregarding the rest of what the game has to offer. In sheer volume of content, there's more to do at level 75 than there is at any other level in the game. Whether or not you're bored of it doesn't change the fact that it makes up a huge portion of the game's offered content.


Oh lordy. What are you talking about Ouch? Seriously, dude what's with the defensiveness?

I shared that fact that in my 4 years of playing the game, I have always had plenty to do, and plenty of fun, and rarely experienced the kind of rigorous discrimination that you all have mentioned. And I made it clear that I never invested in end game stuff where the standards are different as I've already stated. I just think it's completely possible to have a great experience in FFXI without taking up the end game content which is intensely time consuming, strict, and difficult. That's all man. It ain't that deep.
I'm not trying to debate the point that you can't have a fulfilling time playing Final Fantasy XI without participating in any form of end game. I was merely pointing out that a large volume of what the game has to offer is considered end game. A number of the things you've mentioned in FFXI I can only view as a means to an end, mostly because I've done them enough that I've had my fill of them. I'm not being defensive, I just think you're full of it.


Of course people have level 75 characters. That's not what I'm talking about when I talk about end-game. Getting to level 75 isn't end game, that's just... the game. xD But when someone talks about how 70% of the game is end game stuff, I wasn't thinking in terms of pure content, I was thinking in terms of how many people actually spend the bulk of their time doing specifically end game stuff.
If it's something that you can only do at level 75 and it requires a group, I tend to consider it some form of end game. You can do Nyzul Isle runs on the fly, but I still consider that end game. KSNMs, ISNMs, Missions, ZNMs, HNMs, Assaults, Nyzul Isle, Dynamis, Sky, Sea, Limbus, Salvage, etc. are all events I consider endgame. This is a large portion of what FFXI has to offer. All I was saying by backing up Omecle was that these events make up a very significant chunk of what FFXI offers, and I think it's a shame to just ignore these things.


Like I said, there's so much to do in this game. And if you want to fight gods and whatnot, then making strategically sound choices in jobs and subjobs is a good thing. If that is what you want to do. But if you want to just have fun leveling a certain job because it's a job you have fun playing, it's silly to change your plans based on the fact that you might be doing dynamis once a week and your WHM would be overlooked for a RDM.
First of all, a WHM will almost never be overlooked in favor of a RDM. They do two completely different things at endgame, and suggesting otherwise just shows, as Del has said, "an ignorant point of view." Anyway, I'm not basing my entire argument around a job's usefulness in end game. Go ask a level 75 PUP if they were able to regularly get parties with relative ease while they were leveling it. A large number of jobs just have difficulty finding parties. I'm not saying this is a reason to abandon what you want to do. I've never been trying to argue such an extreme position. I'm just trying to make others aware of the attitude that has prevailed in the FFXI community for years. My problem with your argument, is that it seems you're suggesting that players should do whatever they want to do, and there won't be consequences. I'm just trying to make others aware that there are consequences of deviating from the norm.


Your own wishes and desires should be considered first, and THEN factor in community standards and expectations. Ultimately, whatever you do in this game I feel should be motivated from a desire to have fun. People have fun doing different things. But I don't think you should sacrifice your own entertainment just so you can be exactly what a specific group of people want you to be for a very specific event on very specific days.
Nor am I, but I am saying it is something of which one should be aware. Let's take for example my friend Kirou. He leveled THF to 75. He's leveling DNC to 75 now. He's preparing to level PUP to 75 next. He's also leveled DRG to 75 so that he has a job he can actually get parties done on. He's leveling DNC and PUP because he wants to, but he also recognizes that only having these jobs prevent him from doing other things he's interested in. That's the type of awareness that I support. There is a prejudice, often unfounded, in FFXI's community against many jobs. You're a WHM, Miriel. You wouldn't have experienced it, but maybe you should try and talk to someone who has before you try and say that we're exaggerating this prejudice.



Hasn't Call Wyvern been a 20min ability for longer than it hasn't been? As long as I've been playing at least. The lolDRG mentality was still in effect at that time too, for really no reason.

I've seen a DNC main heal a melee party in Dynamis, while also giving us the very cool Haste Samba.

I really think you guys read too much into this stuff.
Unfortunately, I'm much too amused by these debates to have reached my long post threshold quite yet.

At any rate, I'd argue your point about DRG is irrelevant. It took almost two years for Square Enix to change Call Wyvern to a 20 minute recast. Two years of prejudice didn't change instantly, and even then, until the two-handed weapon update, DRG was still fairly unpopular because jobs who could utilize /NIN for Dual Wield were far and away more popular (even though the numbers didn't stack up).

As for your comment about DNC, they're still perceived as inferior to WHM for main healing due to the lack of the ability to raise others (people are going to die in Dynamis, and having a main healer who can't raise them is a problem). Many would debate whether or not haste samba is actually worth using. It doesn't actually give haste; it lowers delay, which is bound to annoy anyone who uses a two-handed weapon since it messes with their TP gain. SAMs especially dislike it because it ruins 6-hit builds.

Summary: You don't have to conform if you don't want to, but just know that it potentially limits what you're able to easily accomplish!

Del Murder
09-15-2009, 05:50 AM
I'm not being defensive, I just think you're full of it.
Uncalled for. Play nice.

You two obviously take different perspectives of the game. All I argue is that different perspectives exist, and that should be encouraged. Again, just because there are tons of end game content doesn't make it a shame to not play it, because everyone does their own thing. Is it a shame to not play Garrison or Brenner?

You two do know that you are arguing the same point about WHM, right? That it actually isn't inferior to RDM? Miriel was just saying that people gave the impression that attitude existed, which she didn't see to be the case in her experience. Remember, her experience as a WHM leveling and not doing endgame stuff. Please consider the perspective of the person you are arguing against before you reply.

Miriel
09-15-2009, 06:10 AM
Holy moly! Dude, you are just digging in your heels aren't you?


First of all, a WHM will almost never be overlooked in favor of a RDM. They do two completely different things at endgame, and suggesting otherwise just shows, as Del has said, "an ignorant point of view."

That was an example I threw out there based on one of the very first posts made by BoB in this thread which implied that people have been telling him that white mages become unwanted toward the end of the game. I wasn't trying to get into specific strategies of end game playing. I have to say this again, IT AIN'T THAT DEEP MAN.


My problem with your argument, is that it seems you're suggesting that players should do whatever they want to do, and there won't be consequences.

No, I never said that, nor do I think I even suggested that. I gave a personal account of my experiences in the game. A personal experience that lacked the many discriminations and rigidness that makes up your view of the game.

Your argument has always been about how strict the FFXI community is. I've already said that this is probably true for end game material. You have presented your view off FFXI and I accept it as one piece of the whole FFXI experience. I have given my view of the game which I have over and over stated comes from a different aspect of the game, the non end game aspect. And yet you seem really really invested in refuting everything I said, even though I've said in pretty much every single post that this is all stuff that has come from my own personal experience of the game which has been filled with more casual and relaxed players than super strict ones.

So ok. You keep sprouting off about how harsh this game is. I've already said my piece and it seems like BoB and Co. are going along swimmingly, meeting great people and having a lot of fun which is fantastic and I hope their fun continues as long as they're playing the game cause that's really what it's all about.


I'm not being defensive, I just think you're full of it.

xDD

Ok buddy, you're not defensive at all. :greenie: I'm not judging you man and I'm not discrediting the way you play the game. I give mad props to anyone who can handle end game stuff cause it takes skill and dedication. So you really don't need to jump down people's throat when they present a different outlook on things. Just cause I disagree with some of the things you've said doesn't mean I disregard them. I just thought your views were very one sided and didn't present the many many aspects of the game and the many many people who play the game who are not so strict or as inflexible as you made it out to be.

Ouch!
09-15-2009, 08:52 AM
I was merely trying to draw attention to the fact that experiences leveling WHM, one of the most desired jobs in almost any situation in the entire game, are hardly indicative to the reality of the majority of the community. Earlier when I asked if we were playing the same game, I wasn't just being a smart ass. Granted, I was being a bit of a smart ass, but the idea of the majority of FFXI's community not being notoriously elitist is a concept so absolutely foreign, I couldn't even begin to grasp it as a reality.

One of the biggest criticisms I've encountered about FFXI for the past six years is how strict and unwilling to change the majority of the community is. It's been one of the few criticisms of Final Fantasy XI I've never even seen someone attempt to defend before. As you might imagine, after six years of accepting it as a given that FFXI's community is an exceptionally elitist and unforgiving one, I found it hard to swallow the idea that someone was actually arguing otherwise. Believe it or not, this is one of the few debates I've yet to have about Final Fantasy XI, so it's bit of fresh air for me.

If my argument has been perceived as trying to say that FFXI isn't worth playing if you don't do any endgame at all, then there's been a misconception. While I do believe you're short-changing yourself by not even trying it (I'm not accusing anyone here of this), I do recognize that you can still accomplish things outside of endgame. I've got a friend who's happily played Final Fantasy XI for six years without having ever done a scheduled event beyond a static to complete CoP.

All I've been trying to argue is that because so much of the game's content is geared towards community efforts, one has to be willing to compromise at some point if they wish to accomplish certain things. I'd go so far as to say that 90% of what you can accomplish in the game, for most jobs, can only be achieved by working with other people. As a result, the willingness to conform to a certain degree is necessary, unless you're the type of masochist who likes shouting in Whitegate for a few hours trying to find people willing to help you out.

If you want to do something relatively unpopular, like level BST exclusively, more power to you. Just don't expect to have an easy time getting through Chains of Promathia or other similar content.

I'm not trying to say one approach to FFXI is better than another (or even that the discrimination against jobs, sub jobs, and other factors is justifiable), but merely that both have their pitfalls. I believe the best option is to be mindful of both approaches to FFXI and take a healthy dose of each into consideration. Strike a balance between a willingness to conform and also the desire to innovate, and you'll find the happiest possible experience in FFXI.

I suppose our primary point of difference is merely how much of a handicap a lack of willingness to conform is going to impose on a player. I've seen enough examples to believe that it's severely disabling in nearly every circumstance (even outside of endgame). My only advice is that you try leveling one of those jobs which the community perceives as undesirable and compare it to your experiences on WHM as I have to mine on RDM. You'll see that many of those people you might have thought were pretty accepting aren't as willing to compromise as you might have initially thought.

Loony BoB
09-15-2009, 01:57 PM
MWAHAHAHA, look at what I have started. Spread, chaos, spreeaaaaad! >=D

*cough*

Last night's party, with a PL, was: THF, SCH, WAR, RNG, SMN, BRD. xD Possibly the most talkative party I've had for some time, so it was awesome fun. Certainly different, though. :p

I think if everyone is quiet or focused entirely on the game at hand then it's entirely understandable to want a sensible and efficient party, because that's what you're there for. Otherwise people will get bored and frustrated. However, if you have a party with lots of talkative people then it doesn't matter who you're with because you're having fun regardless. This is basically what I've learned from my various leveling parties. I added three new friends last night and was partying with three other people I already knew (including the PL). Huzzah.

End game doesn't appeal to me as much as partying with Danielle and Shawtiie does. I miss Kentarou being around, though. :(

Del Murder
09-15-2009, 06:05 PM
Apparently Midgard is full of elitists, according to Ouch!. I guess I'm glad I never went there. I don't think the majority of Pandy players are elitist. At least, not the ones I play with. Also this board seems to be the exception since I don't see the majority of players who post here as racists, as I have played with many of them.


I've got a friend who's happily played Final Fantasy XI for six years without having ever done a scheduled event beyond a static to complete CoP.
This reminds me of the guy who's accused of being a racist and his response is 'but I have plenty of black friends!'

KentaRawr!
09-15-2009, 06:22 PM
So yeah, PLD tanks are pretty sweet.

Del Murder
09-15-2009, 06:25 PM
I prefer WHM/WAR.

Loony BoB
09-15-2009, 06:44 PM
I partied with a WHM/WAR the other day, actually. :p It was surprisingly effective. Hi, Mirage. xD

Racist is a bit extreme, don't you think? Or am I missing something... either way, I would hardly say Midgard is full of elitists, I think it's possible though that the people who Ouch! parties with may be likeminded individuals and therefore he would see things that way. In my experience, it's been the opposite of what he's saying... although apparently it's just the endgame people so I guess maybe that makes sense? All the people I've played with, and I've played with many now, have been awesome. The closest I've got to a "wtf" to do with my job/equipment is people laughing at me for having my L1 sword at L15 (they partied with me anyway, though, they just thought it was funny) and people telling me to, uh, stop buying new gear as I may as well just stick with my old stuff to save money. :p The people I hang out with are the talkative ones, though. We were being silly shouting nonsense at each other in Bastok last night and someone asked to join Overture purely based on that. xD So Ouch!, if you see a person called something like Katenundun or something, they're neat and like to chat. :p Pearl? xD

Del Murder
09-15-2009, 07:14 PM
I'm just poking a little fun at my boy. I don't actually think he's a racist.

Ouch!
09-15-2009, 09:37 PM
This reminds me of the guy who's accused of being a racist and his response is 'but I have plenty of black friends!'
Aside from recognizing that now you're just trying to get me going, I'm failing to see how this is even a valid comparison. I am elitist. I've never tried to say otherwise. =O

Also, Bob. Friends get pearls, so I'll be on the look out for the person if they want a social.

Also, saying Midgardsormr might be a bit more elitist than other servers may be more accurate than one might initially think. It's the server that a majority of the English players who imported the game when it was only out in Japan went, and it's also where a majority of people who were in the open beta went when the game was officially lost. It was notorious for having a large number of having "hardcore" players.

Lionx
09-16-2009, 02:55 AM
Actually Ragnarok was the server that English people imported the game and played on before the game came out. Midgardsomr was not even made at the time, because it was made sometime between the end of beta and start of retail and i think thats why it was chosen as the beta migration server. Presently at least half the people have since moved to Hades from the original NA Beta.

Back then you HAD to be hardcore to play. Nowadays, not so much with EXP options and etc. If you have two people you can usually do things extremely fast. Anything goes if its just two friends together, and today's more casual options with EXP bonuses and buffs help facilitate that.

Personally i feel if SE wanted certain jobs to be played a certain way, they will make the fixes early as possible. Players may be able to change a way something is played but SE the developers can totally change whatever skills the players decided to use to something they intended to. I support different combinations when they make sense, but i partly blame SE for not supporting more tank styles, and partly the players for not trying to broaden their horizon(or take forever to do so).