10 Years Later...

[Wolf Kanno]

Well we've just past the 10th anniversary of FFVIII being released. It debuted in Japan last February and this month debuted in North America (PAL is next month).

So let's spend a little time to reflect upon the eighth installment of our favorite series. Discuss its triumphs, failures, and what the game itself has done for the series and JRPGs in the last ten years. What are your thoughts on VIII?

[BardTard]

It's still my favorite game of all time. I love the junction system, music, characters, plot, everything. I just can't express in words my love for FF8.

[Saber]

The game in my opinion has one of the best opening FMV's. I loved how you build each character and that the enemies level up with you. Plus this is the game that started triple triad which is fun and highly addictive.

[charliepanayi]

Well it's my favourite FF game, and the opening and ending still has me hooked every time I see them. And I always love that moment when I talk to someone else who loves the game as much as I do. Can't believe it's 10 years old.

I didn't play the game until around 2002 but I do have dim memories of when the game out in the UK and adverts running on TV and in magazines. As the tagline said, 'Final Fantasy VIII. You'll get over it. One day.' I'm still waiting! XD

[Vermachtnis]

Well Dissidia made me all nostalgic. And after I finish V I'm gonna start focusing on this one. This one and II are the only one's in the first ten I haven't beaten. Which is kind of sad because I had a Save File in the final dungeon for like a year before my Memory Cards went wonky.

Anyway, I'm still not to fond of Squall. But people and there unmarked spoilers (but this game is ten years old and I spoil stuff a lot newer so I have no room to talk) kind of made me reconsider him.

One of the things I liked about this game is the money system. You get paid instead of fighting monsters and the monsters actually drop normal stuff. I also liked Selphie and Laguna.

[Kyros]

This game was completely awesome and the fmvs in it were easily the (or some of the) best ones of all ps1, which was nice too. The story was awesome, and I liked most/all of the characters too. Easily my favorite tied with VI and X :D

[Joethulhu]

Wow, ten years... and it's still almost as bad as XII. Before the rage, let me explain myself. When I started this game, I loved it. I could even look past the abomination that was the junction system. What I really fucking hated was Triple Triad. I TRIED to play it, keyword being TRY. It wasn't necesary, though, so I looked over it. And then... Ultimecia came on the scene. The plot had given itself to the toilet, letting some drunk Japanese guy ruin what could have been a great, yet flawed, game. After IX's terrific story and chaaracters, I thought Square had learned from their mistakes... but... they made a X.

But that's a discussioon for a different thread. Just thought you guys would find a negative view on this game interesting.

That said, I can't help but like this game just a bit. Squall's emoness is hilarious to me at points, and to this day I will challenge Kingdom Hearts fans over his name. So, yes, I'm being a bit of a hipocrite.

[TheAbominatrix]

I enjoyed playing VIII the first time around. It isn't even close to the top of my list of favorite FF's, but it was enjoyable.

I liked a lot of the supporting cast, the world created, and a lot of the little touches, like the money system and the card game.

However, I couldn't stand the two main characters, Squall and Rinoa. The plot was alright until the whole 'omg we're all from the same orphanage' deal, though overall I thought it was a little thin.

So, meh to FFVIII. But there are a lot of worse games out there.

[Kyros]

Wow, ten years... and it's still almost as bad as XII. Before the rage, let me explain myself. When I started this game, I loved it. I could even look past the abomination that was the junction system. What I really smurfing hated was Triple Triad. I TRIED to play it, keyword being TRY. It wasn't necesary, though, so I looked over it. And then... Ultimecia came on the scene. The plot had given itself to the toilet, letting some drunk Japanese guy ruin what could have been a great, yet flawed, game. After IX's terrific story and chaaracters, I thought Square had learned from their mistakes... but... they made a X.

But that's a discussioon for a different thread. Just thought you guys would find a negative view on this game interesting.

That said, I can't help but like this game just a bit. Squall's emoness is hilarious to me at points, and to this day I will challenge Kingdom Hearts fans over his name. So, yes, I'm being a bit of a hipocrite.

I'm confused about this. Do you mean you didnt like the junction system b/c it was too good, and why didnt you like triple triad? At least this game had a good card game instead of the crap IX had. You could actually get good stuff from it too. I'm pretty sure IX was the mistake with its horrific card game, dumb cast, terrible excuse for an extra boss, pushover final battle, and a random bs final boss that came from Zidane's liquid diarrhea. =/

[charliepanayi]

Both you FFVIII and FFIX haters are all mad! Two best games in the series right there.

I never get it when people label Squall as 'emo' - what does that even mean? He's very introspective and sometimes quite cold towards people. But the emo labelling seems to suggest he whines a lot and does nothing to help his situation, when in fact he is nothing like that at all (for the record, the same thing applies to Cloud as well,another 'emo' character supposedly). Squall's best quality is he always trys to get things done, even though he may be silently bitching about it. So the game dwells on his inner thoughts a lot, but I liked that.

I think FFVIII is certainly the Marmite (as in 'love it or hate it') game of the series, and in a way that endears me to it even more. Whatever people's opinions on it though, I do think that it was given a rather difficult (if not impossible) task in having to follow up FFVII. You suspect however FFVIII had turned out, it was always likely to be divisive

[Depression Moon]

I love VIII a lot. It did things differently with it's currency system and it's junction system which I don't midn or think I really ever abused. The game had a touching sotry, but some characters like in many FFs could have been expanded on. The history or Quistis, Selphie, Zell, Irvine, and Ultimecia could have been expanded upon. Even Kiros, Ward, and Adel some.

If the game did all that though it would have been nearly perfect. I'll have to try it again in the near future because I actually never completed my last playthrough. I had died against Ultimecia's last form and we all know how long a grueling that battle can be so I said fuck it!

[-kuri-]

Aah...this game holds so many good memories for me. Man, it was my first Final Fantasy. I remember when I was watching a friend of mine play it and i was like, "this is awesome!" Completely changed my view of Final Fantasy forever.

I loved a lot of things about the game such as the junction system, the characters, and how everything looked in the game. It wasn't your typical hero story set in a middle ages-esce time. But like some people have said, now that i've played it a few times, they could have expanded on the storyline a little bit.

At first, I hated the triple triad game. Completely hated it. But after taking some time and actually understanding how the game works, one of my favorite mini games ever. Got all of the cards in there.

Sadly, I have yet to beat Omega weapon. I hate Omega with a passion. -_- Its a good challenge though.

[Jiro]

I think FFVIII is certainly the Marmite (as in 'love it or hate it') game of the series, and in a way that endears me to it even more.

What is this marmite business get that crap out of here.
http://www.studentsoftheworld.info/sites/country/img/3623_vegemite%20115gm.jpg

It's not my favourite Final Fantasy, but I enjoyed the game quite immensely. It was actually the first one I ever bought. Every game is going to have its flaws, it's just whether or not you can look past them and enjoy the good bits. I can safely say that FFVIII is my kinda Vegemite, and I once ate 10 pieces of vegemite toast for breakfast :cool:

[LunarWeaver]

I feel so fucking old right now.

[Joethulhu]

"Emo" is a term that really defines a genre of music, but is used to describe a depressed and anti-social person. Hence, Squall. Cloud wasn't emo, he was just a whiner. And Kyros, I agree about the final boss, but nothing else; however, let me clarify on junctioning and Triple Triad. Junctioning WORKS, it was just a really stupid idea. All I had to do was hit the Islands Closest to Heaven and Hell to stock up on Ultimas and Curagas, and Ultimecia - all three, no, four forms - went down in, oh, ten minutes. In IX YA HAD TA' TRAAAAAAAAIN. Sorry.
As for Triple Triad, I just didn't get it. Recently, I downloaded the Triad emulator from this site and tried to learn it. I can play it - I just don't like it. Tetra Master was far less complicated, easier to learn, and as much fun - to me, at least - as Triad is to VIII fans.
Anyway, Kyros, I am also guessing - just assuming here, correct me if I'm wrong - that you haven't played many older FF's. Maybe VI, but I'm talking I - III and V, IV excluded because it was the real precursor to the PS1 FF's; and if you did play them, you didn't like them much. Correct? If I'm wrong, please correct me here. But if you liked them, I think you would like IX more.
For now, though, let's agree to dissagree and let others express their opinions on this... not THAT bad, but not good, game.

[Kyros]

I played the older ones before ps came out. The had references to them here and there in IX oh boy, doesnt make the game any better imo though. All bosses in IX were pushovers, and the card game was bad compared to Triple Triad. I didnt bother pushing to 99 in IX b/c theres no point in trying after 65-70 since everything's a breeze by then, and I didnt even bother maxing out thievery (no point when I had him hitting for 9999 w/o it) and didn't use nearly the best team..

[Bolivar]

This game has aged really well to me. When it came out, I was impressed like everyone else, but eventually I just hated the protagonist, hated the junction system, hated that you're relegated to the final dungeon and a weird no-town world.

Over the years I think my appreciation grew a little bit every time I played it and exploded in the last two years. This is up there with VII, IX, and X for my favorite FF and undoubtedly one of the greatest games I ever played.

I think foremost I would commend the developers on bringing "A Fantasy based on Reality" to life. You have swords, sorceresses, magic, phantom beasts, dragons, and a mysterious Crystal, but you also have presidents, cities, TV stations, internet, popular music, and jazz clubs. It was an amazing vision that doesn't really fit into any of the subgenres of fantasy (i just checked, maybe "Low Fantasy" would be it).

Once I learned I don't need to stock up on 100 of every spell I have, the Junction system revealed its beauty to me. I can draw once or twice with my three party members, then transfer all that to one person who will junction it, and move on. It keeps the pace amazing and keeps the challenge going. In general, the deep customization of the system causes me to play the game a different way each time I tackle it.

So, it has both story/setting and gameplay/battles down just right for me. Those are my two favorite aspects of Final Fantasy, with music as third place, and this game has some of my favorite songs in the series.

As far as failures go, I don't know if I'd change anything. I love the characters, I love the way all the different side stories of the plot are related to each other, I love how it's not explicitly stated what the relationship between Squall and Laguna is, it takes me for a trip every time I play it. I'm still uncovering new endgame sidequests I didn't know about the first time. I also think this game has one of the best final dungeons in the series, its insane to think about a final dungeon with replayability but it's here.

The game's only failure is how misunderstood i think it's been over the years.

[line_genrou]

Some plot holes that kinda weakened the story,IMO.
Such as Ultimecia having no backround and no real motivation for her plan.Creating the whole Ultimecia = Rinoa theory.Because people wanted a reason for her existence.

But I love the characters and love the scenario.I like the junction system,although it did annoy me at the beginning.

[Flying Arrow]

Despite its faults I still think it's one of the better games in the series. Playing it as a 15-year-old I could still see glaring flaws that marred the experience. For every good idea in FFVIII there is a bad one that undermines it. I inexplicably enjoy this game anyway.

Pros:
+ Inventive character customization systems (Junctioning/GFs/weapon building)
+ Interesting and unique setting
+ Fun magic system that, in theory, rewards cleverness and resourcefulness. The Draw system may have turned some off, but I thought it was an interesting concept, even if it wasn't as fun as it could have been.
+ Ultimecia's smurfing castle. Best final dungeon (and maybe best dungeon overall) in the entire series. One of the few parts of the game that actually forces the player to quit slouching and play.
+ Laguna and pals: potentially a better storyline than Squall and SeeD's. What we got was enjoyable enough, but it really felt like so much more of a genuine, heartfelt story than the main plot. I'll take a chronicle of Laguna's life over Squall's introversion any day of the week.
+ Triple Triad. One of the only minigames in any RPG that I can stomach. When the plot and dialogue of FFVIII get tedious (which is often), Triple Triad is the pitch-perfect diversion. I also liked that cards could be refined into items, parts and magic.

Cons:
- Ease in which the Junction system can be manipulated guts a lot of the game's potential strategy in terms of battle
- Plot takes a nosedive once the player boots up disc 3 (The orphanage twist was astonishingly stupid to me even at 15). Until then, it was decent if a little underwhelming.
- Ambitious attempt at writing (how many other games like this try to build around a highschool romance?) completely wrecked by the awful execution of the Squall and Rinoa plot.
- Characters who seem interesting at first (personality-wise) amount to very little by the game's end.
- Ultimecia herself. Awful character. Awful end. May be even stupider and more out of place a villain than FFIX's infamous Necron. Did Square pay their writers up-front or something?

In the end, the gameplay of FFVIII, I think, is solid enough and satisfying if a little flawed. The problems with the game revolve mainly around bad writing. One could argue that, yes, it's just a game, but I would counter that, like gameplay, the time spent going through the story and cut-scenes should culminate in a satisfying and rewarding experience for the player. It's not that Square didn't try, but is seems more likely that they just underestimated the project.

[Heath]

I think FFVIII still retains the charm and appeal it had ten years ago to this very day. I replayed it last year and actually found that when I was an older and more mature person I got more out of it than before. Not simply in terms of gameplay, but also the plot. Still one of the weaker entries in the series, but by no means is it a bad game. I still listen to the piano collection semi-regularly and have always liked the OST itself. Despite the fact I feel it has aged well, the plot after disc two still doesn't sit right with me. I wouldn't exactly crawl over broken glass to play the game, but at the same time I wouldn't stick my nose up at the idea of playing it again.

A good reflection of how good a game FFVIII is and how well it has aged is this very forum. The amount of discussion from this forum is very good relative to the rest of the forums considering its age and that it's a single game (unlike X or VII). People still have fond memories of their first playthrough, of that first cutscene and at playing Triple Triad among other things.

[Bolivar]

I replayed it last year and actually found that when I was an older and more mature person I got more out of it than before.

Yeah I think that's what did it for me.

[Rocket Edge]

It's still without question my favorite all-time game. It makes me think about it even to this day. 10 years? I think it's aged well.

[Slothy]

I'm confused about this. Do you mean you didnt like the junction system b/c it was too good,

Seriously? You really think it was too good? I'm glad you're not a game designer.


and why didnt you like triple triad? At least this game had a good card game instead of the crap IX had. You could actually get good stuff from it too. I'm pretty sure IX was the mistake with its horrific card game, dumb cast, terrible excuse for an extra boss, pushover final battle, and a random bs final boss that came from Zidane's liquid diarrhea. =/

This explains it. Truly great games are apparently lost on you. :p If characters with some actual depth who develop well throughout the course of the game and in a way that makes sense means they're dumb then give me the dumb cast over FFVIII's thanks. I find it funny that you accuse FFIX of being too easy yet say the Junction system was good (unless I'm misunderstanding you there). The junction system was a great concept but it was ruined by being easily exploitable right off the bat. It was too easy to turn characters into utter powerhouses who never run into anything they can't wipe out in a few turns throughout the entire game. Where's the fun if there's no risk or challenge? Not to mention that magic was useless for anything other than junctioning. You'd have to be stupid to use any when you can easily have characters hitting for crazy damage and walking around with a few thousand hit points in a matter of hours. Great concept, but terrible execution. At least if you found IX too easy it was probably because you were grinding too much.

All that out of the way, I mostly agree with The Abominatrix about VIII. It had it's good moments plot wise and some of the characters are enjoyable if a little two dimensional. If the plot didn't fall apart towards the end and Square had bothered to balance the gameplay at all we'd have one of the better titles in the series on our hands. Instead we got something that's as meh now as it was 10 years ago. Maybe a little moreso since there have been some truly shining examples of story telling since then that make the plot look a little worse then it did then.

[The Last Oath]

Funny to think its 10 years old now. I remember playing it years ago when i was 7 or so. and I couldnt beat elvoret because I didnt know how to junction :|

My fav FF.

[Marshall Banana]

The good:

The rewards of Triple Triad make every card game worthwhile
Laguna and company
Unique and pretty locations
Edea and sorceresses in general are cool
PuPu
A cute girl who fights with nunchaku


The bad:

The dialogue is just plain awful!
Not enough sorceresses
The world map feels bare
Boring sidequests


The ugly:

Zell
"Chicken-wuss"

[Rantz]

I agree with the above pretty much.

[Jiro]

Funny to think its 10 years old now. I remember playing it years ago when i was 7 or so. and I couldnt beat elvoret because I didnt know how to junction :|

Yes, Elvoret kicked my kid-ass because I was horrible at junctioning. Hell I was horrible at the whole game to begin with :p

[Kyros]

This explains it. Truly great games are apparently lost on you. :p If characters with some actual depth who develop well throughout the course of the game and in a way that makes sense means they're dumb then give me the dumb cast over FFVIII's thanks. I find it funny that you accuse FFIX of being too easy yet say the Junction system was good (unless I'm misunderstanding you there). The junction system was a great concept but it was ruined by being easily exploitable right off the bat. It was too easy to turn characters into utter powerhouses who never run into anything they can't wipe out in a few turns throughout the entire game. Where's the fun if there's no risk or challenge? Not to mention that magic was useless for anything other than junctioning. You'd have to be stupid to use any when you can easily have characters hitting for crazy damage and walking around with a few thousand hit points in a matter of hours. Great concept, but terrible execution. At least if you found IX too easy it was probably because you were grinding too much.

Fully junctioned with crazy stats and whatnot didn't guarantee victories vs the enemies on the islands closest to heaven or hell, vs Omega or Ultima weapon (whichever was stronger forgot which one, think it was Omega), or even vs the final boss. If you messed up vs any of them even with awesome junctioning you were screwed. They also scaled to be even harder once you hit max lv.

I didn't bother grinding much in FFIX. I wasn't anywhere near max lv, was only above 60 b/c I thought Ozma was going to be a challenge, and I didn't use the best team. I ran Zidane w/o using thievery, Vivi only b/c of Flare, Garnett even though Eiko was better, and Steiner. I never bothered with Freya's dragon crest since I didn't use her. Ozma, Kuja and Necron were all easier than Ultemecia, and I didn't even have invincibility in this game.

[Marshall Banana]

Ozma isn't easier than Ultimecia. XD

[Kyros]

You must have faced a different Ozma then everyone else I've talked to b/c he was ridiculously easy, and I didn't do any of the stuff that makes him weaker.

[Marshall Banana]

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m285/fofonda/emoticons/Pikachu/pikachu_15.gif

[Wolf Kanno]

Alright people this thread is a retrospective on FFVIII, not determining whether IX was an easy game or not. Please try to stay on topic or I will start deleting irrelevant posts. Go make a new thread about VIII vs IX if its really that important to discuss. :p

[Shadowdust]

Wow, ten years since its release. It's still one of my favorites. It definitely brings back a lot of nostalgia and makes me want to give it another go. At the time, it brought just enough new gameplay ideas without abandoning the nice classic way of gaming that I had grown accustomed to. Junctioning was really quite fun if you like to play with stats. And I loved the fact that I didn't have to level up too much. I always wanted to hold out for the stat boosting abilities before I went too far up in level.

I doubt the junction system was exploited with new players. If most players were like me, they probably didn't even bother working on their magic junctions until they were well into the game. And besides, even if it is easy to exploit, I don't see how this is any different than power leveling or simply selecting an easy mode in other games. Believe me, drawing magic or excessively playing card games takes a long time and a lot of patience. So if you're exploiting the junction system, good for you, you've earned it.

[Bolivar]

^ I agree with that, Shadowdust, for the time you spend drawing you could spend that grinding in other games. People point out you can get the refine ability and buy tents to get curagas, true, that gets your life insane, but not much else unless you're going out and getting those items. You do get a lot of them just by playing but I feel they were spaced out nicely by the game designers as you went along the story.


Alright people this thread is a retrospective on FFVIII, not determining whether IX was an easy game or not. Please try to stay on topic or I will start deleting irrelevant posts. Go make a new thread about VIII vs IX if its really that important to discuss. :p

would you care to grace us with your thoughts, then, Mr. Mod?

[Levian]

FFVIII is the only FF game where I probably know the name of all the enemies! Triple Triad is such an awesome mini game. The GF system was also pretty great, gave them some more personality and use.

[Deadwinter66950]

Happy 10th year.. FF8 was the first FF game I played and is what got me into the Final Fantasy series. FF8 is my personal favorite in the series and its funny because I just started playing it again realizing its been 10 years since its release in NA.

P.S. I'm new so cut me a break I know I'm a few days late on this subject.

[Future Esthar]

My favorite FF also.
Ironically I am playing FF7 on the PSN now.
Right in FF8´s birthday.

[Wolf Kanno]

.

Alright people this thread is a retrospective on FFVIII, not determining whether IX was an easy game or not. Please try to stay on topic or I will start deleting irrelevant posts. Go make a new thread about VIII vs IX if its really that important to discuss. :p

would you care to grace us with your thoughts, then, Mr. Mod?

I will but I'm in the middle of a new playthrough and was hoping to wait until I finished it to give it a fresh opinion. Unfortunately, I forgot to level up some of Alexander's abilities and now I'm trapped in Esthar grinding to get the Med LV Up ability. Basically, I'm grinding to get Remedy+ items so I can get Doom Train, not to mention this is my wonderful disc with a scratch on it so it may take more time than I want to finish this Disc...:cry:

[Deadwinter66950]

.

Alright people this thread is a retrospective on FFVIII, not determining whether IX was an easy game or not. Please try to stay on topic or I will start deleting irrelevant posts. Go make a new thread about VIII vs IX if its really that important to discuss. :p

would you care to grace us with your thoughts, then, Mr. Mod?

I will but I'm in the middle of a new playthrough and was hoping to wait until I finished it to give it a fresh opinion. Unfortunately, I forgot to level up some of Alexander's abilities and now I'm trapped in Esthar grinding to get the Med LV Up ability. Basically, I'm grinding to get Remedy+ items so I can get Doom Train, not to mention this is my wonderful disc with a scratch on it so it may take more time than I want to finish this Disc...:cry:

You could just go buy a crap load of Remedy and once you get Med LV Up refine them into Remedy+ although I think its 10 Remedy for 1 Remedy+ so I guess it depend on if you have enough Gil to buy it. If I remember correctly you need 6 of each item right?

[Bolivar]

.

Alright people this thread is a retrospective on FFVIII, not determining whether IX was an easy game or not. Please try to stay on topic or I will start deleting irrelevant posts. Go make a new thread about VIII vs IX if its really that important to discuss. :p

would you care to grace us with your thoughts, then, Mr. Mod?

I will but I'm in the middle of a new playthrough and was hoping to wait until I finished it to give it a fresh opinion. Unfortunately, I forgot to level up some of Alexander's abilities and now I'm trapped in Esthar grinding to get the Med LV Up ability. Basically, I'm grinding to get Remedy+ items so I can get Doom Train, not to mention this is my wonderful disc with a scratch on it so it may take more time than I want to finish this Disc...:cry:


true, i always get bogged down grinding there.

[Wolf Kanno]

I will but I'm in the middle of a new playthrough and was hoping to wait until I finished it to give it a fresh opinion. Unfortunately, I forgot to level up some of Alexander's abilities and now I'm trapped in Esthar grinding to get the Med LV Up ability. Basically, I'm grinding to get Remedy+ items so I can get Doom Train, not to mention this is my wonderful disc with a scratch on it so it may take more time than I want to finish this Disc...:cry:

You could just go buy a crap load of Remedy and once you get Med LV Up refine them into Remedy+ although I think its 10 Remedy for 1 Remedy+ so I guess it depend on if you have enough Gil to buy it. If I remember correctly you need 6 of each item right?

I have remedy's and all the other items. Hell, one of my first encounters on the Esthar continent was a Malboro that I not only beat but was kind enough to drop 8 Malboro Tentacles. I just need to level up Alexander's abilities. The problem is that I don't have Med Data learned (200ap) and Med Lv Up only becomes available when that is learned and I could have sworn its a 200+ AP ability.

Why this is an issue is because I'm trapped in Esthar where the majority of my random encounters are early level monsters that drop 1AP while the Malboro's are my only real means of getting good AP. If I try to advance the story, I'll lose the ability to get Doomtrain. :(




true, i always get bogged down grinding there.

I kinda forgot how much I don't like the third Disc. :(

[Jiro]

not to mention this is my wonderful disc with a scratch on it so it may take more time than I want to finish this Disc...:cry:

I feel your pain. My playthrough is halted at the space station. I'm awaiting a remedy to the situation.

[Wolf Kanno]

I grinded and got my Doomtrain last night but feel silly now cause I forgot I could just pick up the Solomon Ring and summon Doomtrain at my leisure afterwards... :sweatdrop: Well, at least I got to use Edea some more. :D

[Mogi]

FFVIII has an amazing soundtrack. All of the music is so beautiful.
*-*

I'm not sure that I can say that it has the prettiest soundtrack ever, because I think that award goes to FFX, but it ranks very, very closely.

[loza]

FF VIII was the first FF I played... So automatically I love it. However, that said the story is a little flawed. I guess I just didn't quite get the need of going through time so many times, got a little bit rediculous there. The drawing system was a bit repeditive as well. None the less FFVIII is awsome ^^

[Christmas]

I really like the fight scene with Seifer and the dance scene with Rinoa when I first saw it donkey years back. :bigsmile: