Super Boss vs. Final Boss

[Wolf Kanno]

Alright, to start off, we are not basing this on in-game mechanics this was more of something I always wonder is whether the super bosses of FF lore are actually stronger than the final boss in there respected games from a story standpoint.

Can ExDeath really defeat Omega? Could Sephiroth really take on the WEAPONS and win? Is Ozma stronger than Kuja? Is the Omega Fiend on par with Yu-Yevon? and is the Undying powerful enough to beat the legendary Yiazmat?

Remember, this is from a story standpoint so I don't need mentioning of how Ultima is Kuja's "I win" button or how Sephiroth could use Knights of the Round to beat the WEAPONS. Game mechanics exist simply for the game or to pull off certain elements of the plot but should not be factored in.

[Kyros]

Ozma and Kuja were both boring easy fights so who care about them?

I think Ultimecia and Omega were on the same level. If youre not invincible the whole fight vs both of them at lv100 gl b/c theyll eat your face. She would be the only FF final boss where I've ever had to pay attention to what was going on sometimes.

Sephiroth was just 1 character taking 1 turn while the weapons took more than that, and they had a lot more hp so I'd go with the weapons hands down in that case.

idk how well Kefka would do since I've always killed him before anyone could do anything after the battle opener.

[Depression Moon]

I believe a lot of people had trouble with Ozma. I always presume that the main villain is far stronger than any hidden bosses, but the gap in power difficulty between the Undying and really any hunt marks close to the end are far apart. I also don't like Vayne so that's another reason.

As far as Yu-Yevon goes I think if he had his armor as sin then most definitely. Sin was powerful enough to destroy continents so I think he could have beaten that monster. Not sure about the other villains yet.

[Bolivar]

X-Death - yeah, I'd give it to him. He had the power of the void and the entire horde of the "Disenfranchised Bad Guys Union" at his side. I think he could take Ultima. Don't underestimate the power of Unions :)

Sephiroth - Cloud and his companions could take Weapons on, I think he could too. He had the Masamune, which was cool little game reference that basically stated that he had already concluded an FF adventure - he had an ultimate weapon (along with the best magic.)

Kuja - i'm not sure, I don't think he was really all that powerful. Yeah, he destroys a faux-Terra, but that just doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the game. I mean by that standard Zidane could destroy a half-assimilated mini-representation of planet, Vivi or Steiner could do it (or worse, Vivi and Steiner could do it!), Ozma obviously could do it.

Never had the balls to face Yiazmat (despite doing nearly everything else) but I'm not sure if anything or anybody could beat the Occuria. The Final Boss? I don't know. From what I've heard Yiazmat could destroy a half-changed tyrant being infused with crazy powers.

[Elpizo]

Well, Cloud of Darkness could beat the Iron Giant for sure, seeing as the Iron Giant first has to gain the power of the Dark Warriors before he can even damage the Cloud of Darkness... By then Cloud of Darkness has Particle Beamed him to oblivion. And yes, this is from a story-line perspective. :p

[blackmage_nuke]

I always wondered why the monster trainer at the arena in X didnt sick his creations on Sin as they were obviously so much more powerful than even the final aeon.

[Ultima Shadow]

Ozma and Kuja were both boring easy fights so who care about them?

I think Ultimecia and Omega were on the same level. If youre not invincible the whole fight vs both of them at lv100 gl b/c theyll eat your face. She would be the only FF final boss where I've ever had to pay attention to what was going on sometimes.

Sephiroth was just 1 character taking 1 turn while the weapons took more than that, and they had a lot more hp so I'd go with the weapons hands down in that case.

idk how well Kefka would do since I've always killed him before anyone could do anything after the battle opener.
It wasn't supposed to be about game mechanics, though. :p



FFVII: Sephiroth vs Weapons. Before he falls into the lifestream? The weapons. After he becomes some demi-god like being in the lifestream? Then Sephiroth could probably take them down. I'd assume, though they differ a lot battle-wise, that all the weapons are supposed to be about equally strong story-wise. And both Sapphire and Diamond were defeated with massive cannons. If human-made cannons could kill them, then Sephy in his uber-mode from thing could probably beat them as well.

FFVIII: Omega Weapon vs Ultimecia= Omega. Ultima Weapon is actually MENTIONED to be "the strongest, ultimate monster said to be impossible to defeat" when you scan him. That should make him story-wise stronger than Griever and debatably even on par with Ultimecia herself. When you scan Omega, it says "even stronger than Ultima Weapon". Also, all the bosses inside Ultimecia's castle EXCEPT Omega are her servants. If it wasn't because Omega's actually stronger than she is, she could probably have made Omega her servant as well.

FFIX: Ozma is... far too weird and obscure to compare to anyone or anything really.

FFX: I'd say Sin could take on any creature, really. So as long as Yu-Yevon controlls Sin... yeah.

[NeoCracker]

Um, Kanno, Story Wise Ultima is still an instant win. Wipes out the face of an entire planet, blows up the crystal that is the source of all power, kills your party, and all that good stuff, so that specific attack is very viable to use in this debate.

That being said,



FFIX: Ozma is... far too weird and obscure to compare to anyone or anything really.

[Marshall Banana]

A super, optional boss is automatically more powerful than a final boss, because that's the concept.

[Depression Moon]

we are not basing this on in-game mechanics

I would have to agree on the Omega and Ultimecia part. Playing IV is Bahamut the supposed super optional boss? Well since he is just a summon rather than the darkness absorbing Zemus that can come back to life, I would go with Zemus over all the optional bosses in that game.

Since I beat VI now I think I've fought most of those optional bosses, most of those were dragons. They all weren't that hard and they had no story relation to them. Kefka had destroyed a world and had that death beam and a good number of monsters on his side. Those dragons could have been his as well. Seeeing him in his godly form I would say he's the most powerful thing in that world.

[Wolf Kanno]

Um, Kanno, Story Wise Ultima is still an instant win. Wipes out the face of an entire planet, blows up the crystal that is the source of all power, kills your party, and all that good stuff, so that specific attack is very viable to use in this debate.

That being said,



FFIX: Ozma is... far too weird and obscure to compare to anyone or anything really.

This is more of a point against Sin's ultimate attack which is an automatic game over yet seeing the attack in a cutscene; while still incredibly powerful, in terms of damage, its still comparable to what other villains have in terms of plot. But people try to use it as justification.

This is also to discredit superfluous attacks like Supernova or Ultimecia'; uber attack as they involve awesome displays of pyrotechnics that should not be repeatable and obviously your party should not have been able to survive.

As for the effects of Trance in IX, I always felt it was because Zidane and Kuja always had naturally high levels of power that their abilites were far greater. I don't think Steiner or Vivi would stand a chance one on one with Zidane or Kuja, despite gameplay mechanics saying otherwise. As for the extent of Zidane's ability, Kuja may be stronger due to him being a prototype as well as being far more mentally unstable. Despite the ability being triggered by strong emotions, its obvious that they are still in control so its possible for Zidane to hold back as well due to his compassionate nature.

As for Omega being the strongest monster in the world, could he really survive something like Time Compression? I mean Ultimecia could possibly Junction herself to Omega if she wanted to. Her power did technically reach a point beyond human comprehension.

For Sephiroth and Kefka, assume they are not fighting their super bosses one at a time, could Lifestream Sephy fight off all the WEPAONS at once? Could God Kefka fight off the 8 Dragons as well as Phumbaba and Deathgaze?

As for IV... don't count the summons, I would use the guardians of the forbidden weapons in the Lunar Core like Tiamat and Opopogo. If you really want to have fun, could Zeromus take on the Giant of Babil?

[VeloZer0]

Sephiroth's Supernova and Kuja's Ultima are completely different scenarios. Supernova was a summon invented exclusively for the Safer Sephiroth battle, Ultima was used in not only a cut-sceen, but an FMV as well. To me this makes Ultima very much a story attack.

And yeah, Zidane would totally be more powerful than Vivi or Stiener "irl", as such would be.

As for Sephy versus all 5 weapons, it would kind of depend on location. I don't see how 5 weapons could effectively fight against something as small as Sehpiroth. If we are talking northern crater it would be more like a series of one on one battles, and seing as I am quite sure Sephiroth is smarter than the Weapons he would probably come out on top. Versus all 5 in the open? Well, they were created eliminate Jenova, so I am going to guess the planet thought 5 was the magic number that was strong enough.

Kefka vs. Everyone. In terms of power with the Light if Judgement I would say Kefka has them beat, but if it is just the 11 of them lacked in a room I don't see him comming out on top. I mean, that would make each of them weaker than your individual party memebers (who teamed up and beat him), and I don't think your characters are supposed to be that strong by the end of the game.

Though Kefka acquires a great deal of power as the game progresses, he never seems to be a great fighter. He is more an accumulate power and only strike when you have a plan to win type.

[Formalhaut]

I know everyone hates FFX-2 but has anyone recognized the multi part Vegnagun/Shuyin Final battle and the Two Part Super Boss Paragon/Trema?

And yes, Paragon and Trema is a Two Part because theres no break in between fighting them.

Trema has 99999 hp! And he has almost every stat Maxed at 255. He also has 999 mp. And has Ultima, Meteor and I think Demi as well. Not to mention going through 99 cloisters JUST to get to him, then fighting Paragon, jesus. The whole Via Infinito is just one massive Superboss.

[Tavrobel]

Because it's not a very worthy fight. Since Kanno asked us to ignore in-game mechanics (even then, the numbers for boss bosses is eclipsed by everything in the other games anyways), Trema/Paragon don't have many powers featured in the cutscenes. There's speculation that they could take Spira by storm, but so could Sin and Vegnagun. Though they have great capabilities, every single one is hampered by their personalities.

Vegnagun is too scared to do anything without Shuyin (and Shuyin is not at all stronger than Tidus); Trema and Paragon are in a similar position, only for fiends. Although it would appear that I'm arguing a moot point; FFX-2 was clearly ignored simply because it won't hold a candle to any of the other games, both in or out of battle.

I think that individually, the only games with comparable Final/Extra bosses would be FFVIII, IX, and X. The problem with the other games is that their "extras" are unions of powers. Old allegiances die hard, but they also die because they can't be maintained.

[Depression Moon]

Oh yeah and Kanno you forgot to mention Kuja has a different trance that's far stronger than anyone else's. He took about a hundred souls from the Iifa Tree to give himself an uber Trance that he can constantly keep a state of while the others trances are just temporary.

[Skyblade]

As for Omega being the strongest monster in the world, could he really survive something like Time Compression? I mean Ultimecia could possibly Junction herself to Omega if she wanted to. Her power did technically reach a point beyond human comprehension.

Since we only see Omega in a post-Time Compression world, I would say, yes, he can survive it.

Ultimecia had intended to compress time to a point where only she could survive. Her spell failed, though we aren't sure why. Laguna proposed that the friendship and belief in each other would let everyone survive past Time Compression. If so, she completed her spell and it simply wasn't as powerful as she would like to have us believe. Or perhaps Ellone pulling Rinoa out of the past early disrupted the spell and prevented a full compression of time (although, since she supposedly left Ultimecia back there, I don't see why).

Either way, the result is the same: Ulti played her big magic, and it failed. Either she wasn't powerful enough to do what she needed to, or she didn't have enough support to pull it off. Either way, Omega survived her attempt, and is still around, not under her control, and far more powerful than she is.

Why he's in her castle, I'm not sure. But it seems fairly clear that he withstood her attempts to overcome him.


Although, perhaps Omega is a result of Time Compression, rather than a survivor of it. A fusion of monsters past and present, combined into an ultimate beast.

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't remember them saying that Ultimecia failed with Time Compression rather it began from the past and moved towards the future since she cast the spell in the past. I always thought your party was attacking her before the spell was completed as opposed to after it failed. Her final form alone is actually absorbing time as you battle and you simply defeat her before it finishes. This was at least how I interpreted it, I'm not quite there yet in my current playthrough.

I do like the theory of Omega Weapon existing due to Time Compression as opposed to being some other all powerful Weapon.

[Skyblade]

I don't remember them saying that Ultimecia failed with Time Compression rather it began from the past and moved towards the future since she cast the spell in the past. I always thought your party was attacking her before the spell was completed as opposed to after it failed. Her final form alone is actually absorbing time as you battle and you simply defeat her before it finishes. This was at least how I interpreted it, I'm not quite there yet in my current playthrough.

I do like the theory of Omega Weapon existing due to Time Compression as opposed to being some other all powerful Weapon.

The info we get from Odine and Laguna indicates that once Ulti gets back to the past, she will start casting Time Compression. Squall and company use the merging of past, present, and future to reach Ultimecia. If time hadn't begun to compress, they would never have been able to reach Ultimecia where she dwells in the future. We manipulated her Time Compression to reach a point where we could attack her. So she definitely started casting the spell. Either it failed, or it didn't wipe out everyone else. Either way, it wasn't enough to stop Omega.

Her "absorb all time" spell might have beaten Omega, but I think he could have destroyed her before she finished it, if they were actually fighting. She clearly needs something to reduce her casting time.

[Wolf Kanno]

As I said, I feel that your party deals with Ultimecia before Time Compression is complete, otherwise, you wouldn't be fighting other monsters on your way to kick her ass. By the time that your party battles her final form, Ultimecia is absorbing time and all that exists is you and her, something that is stated if you scan her. I think you can resist TC for a limited time but once the spell goes into full swing it would be impossible to surmount. I think TC only ended once Ulty got killed.

Omega is also sealed away, which to me tells me that he is powerful but beatable. A full TC Ultimecia could probably destroy Omega since TC itself would not destroy him to begin with, rather just freeze him in time.

[Serapy]

Why he's in her castle, I'm not sure. But it seems fairly clear that he withstood her attempts to overcome him.

Same reason why does Ultimecia live in a huge thing which, apparently, appears to be a castle. A castle with a motivtation strongly resembles one of the historical things; Artemisia, Mausolus and her castle.

Omega is probably a guardian of Ultimecia.

In FFXII, I loved the lore of Hell Wyrm. Don't ask why.

[Mirage]

I don't think this thread makes any sort of sense :(

[Christmas]

Well I remember Ultimecia had a skill that reduce your HP to 1, so if she uses it on Omega Weapon, she might win easily! :bigsmile:

[Forsaken Lover]

Bump. And I got Wolf's okay to do it. :)

Now since Trema was mentioned, I think it needs to be talked about because, unlike most of the Final Boss vs. Superboss debates, it has some substance.

We find this substance in a cutscene and text.
First, the cutscene:
YouTube - Trema Battle Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4qLsvyueew)

As you can see, Trema canonically destroys Paragon right there in the cutscene. And pretty easily too I might add.

Now, what do we know of Paragon?

1. It's Lord Zaon, the spirit who made the first Final Aeon to defeat Sin.
2. The text I mentioned earlier is the Scan you can perform on Paragon:
"The strongest fiend of all time. According to the little data available it has the power to rend the heavens and sunder the earth."

In short, Trema just owned the strongest fiend ever who was made from the spirit of the same man who was once a Final Aeon.

I would say that Trema could very well be near the level of power of Braska's Final Aeon (the real final boss of FFX) or Vegnagun.

On the note of FFXII, isn't The Undying:
A. Infused with a good majority of the Sun Cryst's power
and
B. Fused with Venat?

Now considering the power of the Occuria and the fact a small piece of the Cryst can blow a city and its surroundings to Hell, I would thik he's stronger than the optional bosses.

[Karifean]

About FFX-2
Interesting cause you have Trema - Vegnagun, but there are also Paragon, Strongest Shinra and Numerus.

I'd say Trema, Strongest Shinra and Numerus would definitely beat Vegnagun. I think it's funny how Trema simply jumps in front of Paragon and kills him. I somehow doubt Paragon could beat Vegnagun - we don't even know whether Sin or Vegnagun is stronger, do we (although it certainly looks like Sin would win)?

So I think Trema would easily kill Vegnagun but would lose to Numerus and Strongest Shinra. Paragon would lose to Numerus, Trema and Vegnagun. Strongest Shinra, though, is probably even stronger than Numerus. Braska's Final Aeon... would probably lose to Trema, Shinra and Numerus. Maybe the three of them put together could even stand a chance against Sin in his whole power.

About FFVIII
Ultimecia seems to have tried to tame Omega Weapon, but couldn't and simply locked him away. Triggering the bell opens the cage. Anyway, Ultimecia IMO couldn't defeat Omega Weapon.

About FFVII
Sephiroth would kill those WEAPONs. The ShinRa managed to defeat Sapphire Weapon, so why shouldn't Sephiroth be capable of killing 'em?

About FFX
"JUDGEMENT DAY" and Braska's Final Aeon is dead. I don't believe he'd stand a chance against Penance. Nemesis... maybe, but I doubt it.

About FFXIII
I doubt either Vercingetorix or a Long Gui could stand a chance against Orphan. Either is very strong, but Orphan is an incredibly powerful Fal'Cie.

[VeloZer0]

About FFXIII
I doubt either Vercingetorix or a Long Gui could stand a chance against Orphan. Either is very strong, but Orphan is an incredibly powerful Fal'Cie.
And if they could there goes the entire story :D

[Greatermaximus]

Alright, to start off, we are not basing this on in-game mechanics this was more of something I always wonder is whether the super bosses of FF lore are actually stronger than the final boss in there respected games from a story standpoint.

Can ExDeath really defeat Omega? Could Sephiroth really take on the WEAPONS and win? Is Ozma stronger than Kuja? Is the Omega Fiend on par with Yu-Yevon? and is the Undying powerful enough to beat the legendary Yiazmat?

Remember, this is from a story standpoint so I don't need mentioning of how Ultima is Kuja's "I win" button or how Sephiroth could use Knights of the Round to beat the WEAPONS. Game mechanics exist simply for the game or to pull off certain elements of the plot but should not be factored in.

To also answer what the thread-starter wants to know.

Simply put they lack the purpose and special skill. Since fiction has an upper limit it isn't the destiny of some ancient dragon to beat the main human villian unless the author declares so.

But you're getting us started about how faith, destiny, and purpose are a logical bases for character strengths with circumstances pending.

Play the game or watch National Geographic. You know how that goes. ;)

[Mirage]

I know everyone hates FFX-2 but has anyone recognized the multi part Vegnagun/Shuyin Final battle and the Two Part Super Boss Paragon/Trema?

And yes, Paragon and Trema is a Two Part because theres no break in between fighting them.

Trema has 99999 hp! And he has almost every stat Maxed at 255. He also has 999 mp. And has Ultima, Meteor and I think Demi as well. Not to mention going through 99 cloisters JUST to get to him, then fighting Paragon, jesus. The whole Via Infinito is just one massive Superboss.

Trema has way more hp than 99999, and neither his ultima or meteor is an instant death.

[Wolf Kanno]

To also answer what the thread-starter wants to know.

Simply put they lack the purpose and special skill. Since fiction has an upper limit it isn't the destiny of some ancient dragon to beat the main human villian unless the author declares so.

But you're getting us started about how faith, destiny, and purpose are a logical bases for character strengths with circumstances pending.

Play the game or watch National Geographic. You know how that goes. ;)

This thread (http://forums.eyesonff.com/general-final-fantasy/109532-what-ff-villains-could-beat-sin-s.html) is why I used the rules of non-game mechanics, not to mention that game mechanic-wise, certain games have terribly abusive systems that make this question unbalanced in some instances.

This is hardly about the role of fiction and writing but the idea of playful speculation ;)

I feel its interesting to see what people really feel about the context of a weakling final boss whose main strength is showcased purely through the story could handle a being the player experiences first hand as being a grade-A pain in the ass to battle. Just go with it. :D