The Nature of Kingdom Hearts

[Wolf Kanno]

This has been bothering me for quite some time. Now its stated in the game that Kingdom Hearts is the world where all hearts originate from but there seems to be some conflict concerning what KH is actually like.

In KHI, the place was a dark world where the Heartless reside and possibly originate from. In KH2, its still a world of darkness but surprisingly looks like the World That Never Was.

Does KH reflect the heart of the one who seeks the door and opens it? I can see Ansem (Xehanort Apprentice) seeing KH as a world of darkness filled with Heartless and I can see Xemnas viewing it as a place of nothingness that all things begin and end as.

Master Xehanort in the Birth By Sleep Secret Trailer even has the ability to summon the door to Kingdom Hearts whatever it may appear as in that game. So my question is, am I missing something here or am I on to something... :shifty:

[RedPouch]

I guess I won't know until I play the new KH game, but it sounds like normal inconsistencies that a lot of games/series like this have. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. This is why I'm always pleasantly surprised when a story of any kind manages to stay extremely consistent and includes a large degree of connection.

[Tavrobel]

Except the problem here is that those "inconsistencies" were already explained away. We could reasonably figure that when the worlds got reset by Sora in the first game, its form got reset as well. Notice how in the first game, it was oozing darkness and infested with Heartless until Sora was all like "ZA WARUDO" and KH decided to turn on all of its lights.

My leaning is that you're onto something, but it's largely unimportant, unless Mister Master Man's ability affects how KH is perceived by those who get close. If it does matter, then noticing means something. If not, then it just gives us an in-universe explanation for a possible designer oversight that can be applied after the fact. Either way, insignificant unless shown to be otherwise.

Not that we should discourage any sound theory based on evidence and a little bit of rationality.

[Marshall Banana]

Don't pay attention to anything that succeeds the original game! Kingdom Hearts has become a convoluted mess!

It's been a while since I played the original game, but I remember Kingdom Hearts being light. Ansem thought that it was all-powerful darkness or something, but it's not.

[Tavrobel]

Kingdom Hearts has become a convoluted mess!

Not really.

Your argument is invalidated anyways, since KHII is part of the canon of the universe. It's not like we can whisk away the second game just because we want to. This isn't FFX-2, KHII wasn't horrible or shameful, it was actually an excellent entry into the series.

Additionally, you would have noticed that my post already covered the idea that KH is nothing but light. But if it must be explained further, it's more likely that KH is whatever it needs to be. If it is the Heart of the World, and the World changes, then the Heart must be whatever it has to be to sustain the operation of the World.

[Wolf Kanno]

Except the problem here is that those "inconsistencies" were already explained away. We could reasonably figure that when the worlds got reset by Sora in the first game, its form got reset as well. Notice how in the first game, it was oozing darkness and infested with Heartless until Sora was all like "ZA WARUDO" and KH decided to turn on all of its lights.

I can't really buy into this though. Yes, Sora restored the worlds but it doesn't explain how KH became the way it is in KH2 since the door wasn't even open to it until the very end so the world becomes a realm of darkness again despite the Heartless not being present in the world.


My leaning is that you're onto something, but it's largely unimportant, unless Mister Master Man's ability affects how KH is perceived by those who get close. If it does matter, then noticing means something. If not, then it just gives us an in-universe explanation for a possible designer oversight that can be applied after the fact. Either way, insignificant unless shown to be otherwise.

Not that we should discourage any sound theory based on evidence and a little bit of rationality.I'm just theorizing for the moment as I hope to see if we will learn more about KH in Birth By Sleep considering Master Xehanort was able to summon Kingdom Hearts and he is supposedly the last known Keyblade Master.

I do feel I am onto something. If Kingdom Hearts is the place where all hearts are from, wouldn't it make since it would appear different to people to reflect their own hearts that came from there? (Course Xemnas might throw a monkey wrench into that one...).


Don't pay attention to anything that succeeds the original game! Kingdom Hearts has become a convoluted mess!

It's been a while since I played the original game, but I remember Kingdom Hearts being light. Ansem thought that it was all-powerful darkness or something, but it's not.

Its not that badly convulated, most of the real bullcrap in KH2 was there purely for dramatic purposes and doesn't heavily affect the main story whatsoever with the exception of Xehanort/Ansem/Xemnas stuff... I think we can still move on, especially since Chain of Memories is still the most superior entry in the series...

The other thing that's different from KH1 and 2 is the method of which KH is found. In KH1, its a place in the heart of darkness where destroyed worlds go to, whereas in KH2, Order XIII artificially creates the doorway (or world). Not to mention that the Birth By Sleep trailer suggests its possible to summon Kingdom Hearts with the keyblade...

[Marshall Banana]

Kingdom Hearts has become a convoluted mess!Your argument is invalidated anyways, since KHII is part of the canon of the universe. It's not like we can whisk away the second game just because we want to.
In my mind, Ansem is still just the big baddie of the first game - not the student of the real Ansem who wears a disguise in KHII and does secret things while the Heartless of his student takes the name "Ansem," and his Nobody equivalent calls himself "Xemnas," because "Xemnas" is "Ansem" with an "x" added; and the original Ansem calls himself something else (can't remember what). What the heck? :kaodizzy:

Just the addition of Nobodies mucked up KHII, though. It's akin to Takahashi's constant addition of Naraku incarnations and weapon upgrades in Inuyasha in order to stretch/saturate the story until it became unbearable.

Basically, I feel that Kingdom Hearts doesn't deserve the amount of depth you guys are giving it.

[Wolf Kanno]

I feel the Nobodies and the depth they brought is the only redeeming quality of Kingdom Hearts at this point. The novelty of the project ended the day the first game shipped. ;)

[Ouch!]

Just the addition of Nobodies mucked up KHII, though.
If you didn't see the addition of Nobodies coming long before even Chain of Memories came out (Another Side, Another Story had many hints to their existence), I don't really know what to tell you. Nobodies make a whole lot more sense than just about anything else Kingdom Hearts 2 added. That said, Xehanort's back story is not especially difficult to follow either, so I'm not quite sure what to say.

At any rate, I don't think anyone is trying to argue that Kingdom Hearts is in any way especially deep. It's really not. It only flirts with issues belying any amount of depth. However, I think you're severely exaggerating how confusing it is.

[Tavrobel]

I do feel I am onto something. If Kingdom Hearts is the place where all hearts are from, wouldn't it make since it would appear different to people to reflect their own hearts that came from there? (Course Xemnas might throw a monkey wrench into that one...).

Its not that badly convulated, most of the real bullcrap in KH2 was there purely for dramatic purposes and doesn't heavily affect the main story whatsoever with the exception of Xehanort/Ansem/Xemnas stuff... I think we can still move on, especially since Chain of Memories is still the most superior entry in the series...

The other thing that's different from KH1 and 2 is the method of which KH is found. In KH1, its a place in the heart of darkness where destroyed worlds go to, whereas in KH2, Order XIII artificially creates the doorway (or world). Not to mention that the Birth By Sleep trailer suggests its possible to summon Kingdom Hearts with the keyblade...

It could take on the particular personas of the original person in question. It could be that KH's form is dependent on the person currently carrying favor. A Heartless (pure Darkness) would cause KH to take on a form in which it is a void. A Nobody, who flirts with both Darkness and Light, could cause KH to be a twilight. An Unbirth could cause it to be whatever philosophical quandry they decide to give it this time.

Approved.

But, there's no evidence to suggest that any worlds were destroyed in the timeframe of KHII. KHI is far more malicious in its treatment of the universe than KHII is. Since there was no one who was around to deal with the destruction of the worlds in the first game, many worlds suffered with definite consequences. In the second, Sora was already well accomplished in the task of saving worlds. The time from the end of CoM to the beginning of II was only a year; in the first game, it seemed to be much longer a process, and the new timeline gives it anywhere from ten to sixteen years. It's not inconceivable that several of the worlds visited could easily have been destroyed had Sora not arrived in the first place.

We can also consider the character attempting to access KH. Ansem D was brutally evil, and wanted to obtain more power. Xemnas just wanted something of his back. In a sense, it's the method of obtaining power and what the intentions of using it were for. Ansem D was selfish through and through. Xemnas was willing to do evil in order to accomplish what he thought would end the suffering of those who were like him (ultimately what can be considered a "good" act).


Basically, I feel that Kingdom Hearts doesn't deserve the amount of depth you guys are giving it.

This sure as hell ain't Dante's Inferno. I can't write a book on Kingdom Hearts. What I can write a book about is anything Tolkien. Remember that this is Disney: it's superficially deep. In fact, it's rather simple to understand. People are made of three different parts, and when something goes haywire with one of them, :bou::bou::bou::bou: happens. This isn't higher order differential equations. I don't have to compute any Wronskian matrices.

[Marshall Banana]

If you didn't see the addition of Nobodies coming long before even Chain of Memories came out (Another Side, Another Story had many hints to their existence), I don't really know what to tell you. Nobodies make a whole lot more sense than just about anything else Kingdom Hearts 2 added. That said, Xehanort's back story is not especially difficult to follow either, so I'm not quite sure what to say.
Regardless of whatever in-game logic justifies Heartless spin-offs, more Keyblade masters, and multiple identities, they bring me nothing but pain. Like Inuyasha.

[Tavrobel]

Well, your first problem is that you're watching Inuyasha, which means you like furries, which means you like Baloki.

Therefore, your argument is invalid via Baloki. It's not a logical fallacy, no matter how hard you try to make it so. It just makes you wrong.

[Ouch!]

An Unbirth could cause it to be whatever philosophical quandry they decide to give it this time.
Perhaps a bit of a side note, but they're apparently called Unversed now (Nomura says it was a poor translation; more like he changed his mind) and they somehow spawn from negative emotions.


Regardless of whatever in-game logic justifies Heartless spin-offs, more Keyblade masters, and multiple identities, they bring me nothing but pain. Like Inuyasha.
There's a difference between disliking something and it not making sense. The only type of justification necessary (and probably the only kind of justification that matters at all) is the in-game logic which explains it. Just because you don't like the direction it's taken hardly makes it a convoluted mess.

Like Tav said, though. Kingdom Hearts like all Disney-involved stories (and all Nomura-created stories!) is superficially deep. It's also pretty easy to follow. I'm just baffled as to how anything that has been added since Kingdom Hearts I is so difficult to grasp that it's outright rejection.

[Del Murder]

Maybe if you are used to watching a lot of anime then this story is tame, but by Disney standards it's pretty complicated.

I guess I'm in the minority with Banana of those who thought it got a lot more confusing after KHI. Don't get me wrong, I liked it, but at many times during the game I got a 'huh?' moment.

[Ouch!]

Maybe if you are used to watching a lot of anime then this story is tame, but by Disney standards it's pretty complicated.
Any story by Disney's standards is pretty complicated.

[Marshall Banana]

That's why Disney stories are so great! They're great because they're simple. :sebastian:


I'm just baffled as to how anything that has been added since Kingdom Hearts I is so difficult to grasp that it's outright rejection.
Because I never said that. http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m285/fofonda/emoticons/Pikachu/pikachu_15.gif

I dislike it because I think it's messy. You have that backwards: you're saying that I think it's messy just because I don't like it!

Explaining or justifying the things I don't like about Kingdom Hearts doesn't make them good or neater (I mean, I know who Xehanort is, but I still think that he's a stupid concept). And Kingdom Hearts games are just Disney/Square fan service games, so I think it's perfectly fine to pick and choose what one believes from them regarding the main story! I'm sorry that my first post pushed your buttons so hard, guys. It was a very innocent post.

[Tavrobel]

Perhaps a bit of a side note, but they're apparently called Unversed now (Nomura says it was a poor translation; more like he changed his mind) and they somehow spawn from negative emotions.

Interesting change. But, if they're spawned from negative emotions, what exactly does that mean they form from? Last I checked, emotions were a matter of the Heart.

KHII isn't complicated because of the stuff involved. It suffers from RTFM syndrome (Ansem Reports). If we started comparing the depth of KH games to FF games, we'd find a very suitable match in difficulty.

[Roogle]

... but it sounds like normal inconsistencies that a lot of games/series like this have. It certainly wouldn't be the first time. This is why I'm always pleasantly surprised when a story of any kind manages to stay extremely consistent and includes a large degree of connection.

I agree. I hope that the scenario writers find a better way to explain Kingdom Hearts. One would think that special care would be taken for the titular plot point of the series...

[Ouch!]

Perhaps a bit of a side note, but they're apparently called Unversed now (Nomura says it was a poor translation; more like he changed his mind) and they somehow spawn from negative emotions.

Interesting change. But, if they're spawned from negative emotions, what exactly does that mean they form from? Last I checked, emotions were a matter of the Heart.
From what I've seen, it's unclear so far. Given that Nomura has confirmed that Heartless (and so by extension Nobodies) do not exist in Kingdom Hearts: Birth by Sleep, the common consensus seems to be that the Unversed are somehow the prototypical heartless. The most recent Famitsu article on Birth by Sleep said that Eraqus (the origin of the keyblade master's name is, in fact, merely an anagram of square) suspects Master Xehanort is involved as his disappearance coincides with the appearance of the Unversed.

[Wolf Kanno]

Unversed means "Those who are not well versed in their own existence" and according to the Kingdom Heart's wiki they only "grow off of negative emotion" which I might interpret as meaning they are drawn and grow from the emotions of people. They are also suppose to be the "opposite of life".

I would guess they are possible the original form of the Heartless and Nobodies. By that, I mean a creature spawned from darkness that may have lost their heart but did not go through the process of splitting into a Heartless and Nobody rather it being a Heartless that may have kept their body however warped.

**********************************************8


Here's another debate I've pondered with people is whether or not Riku has a Nobody. He was possessed by the Heartless Ansem but its never stated if Ansem consumed Riku's heart like a normal Heartless. Do you think Riku qualified for a Nobody? Is it possible he might have a special nobody like Roxas or Namine? Just a simply debate I got into and sense we're kinda discussing unexplained phenomena already its fine to debate.

[black orb]

>>> No offence to the KH fans but remember that this is a game that mix FF with Disney characters, in other words you cant even take this game seriously..:roll2

BTW
I played the original KH game but i didnt have the stomach to finish it so I made my little brother beat it for me (atleast he enjoyed it)..:D

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

I don't think Riku ever "lost" his heart like Sora or Kairi did. As far as I am aware and from what I recall, Riku was always present in Xehanort's Heartless. Actually, I think it would be more appropriate to understand it as Riku being possessed by Xehanort's Heartless than Riku actually losing his heart.

:O They are called Unversed now? Interesting. It also gave me an idea! From what was said, I assume Unversed are predecessors of Heartless and Nobodies. They also feed on negative emotions. So maybe Heartless and Nobodies came to being when an Unversed "ate" (for the lack of better word) all the negative emotions of a given being. The Unversed, filled with the negative emotions becomes a Heartless while its prey, emptied of its negative emotions, becomes a Nobody? Though the only problem with this is what happened to the positive emotions? Unless somehow those are consumed when the Unversed becomes a Heartless since Heartless feeds on hearts. Anyways, just a theory that came to me. Not well thought out. :x

Maybe Kingdom Hearts is not a constant? It only arises when hearts start to gather. It always seemed to be something rather abstract given physical form than having any permanent, concrete existences of its own. :/

[Tavrobel]

>>> No offence to the KH fans but remember that this is a game that mix FF with Disney characters, in other words you cant even take this game seriously..:roll2

Then you could also apply that logic to any work of art with a story ever. Please, tell that to my Literature professor so that I don't have to do anything in that class other than skip it. I suppose I shouldn't learn from Aladdin that if I happen to chance upon fortunes, that I should not take them for granted, and that I shouldn't use that fortune solely for the sake of some tail. I should also not yell at my pet monkey or any supernatural entities that can't kill me, but also the same entities that can make my life miserable.


Here's another debate I've pondered with people is whether or not Riku has a Nobody. He was possessed by the Heartless Ansem but its never stated if Ansem consumed Riku's heart like a normal Heartless. Do you think Riku qualified for a Nobody? Is it possible he might have a special nobody like Roxas or Namine? Just a simply debate I got into and sense we're kinda discussing unexplained phenomena already its fine to debate.

TSoL's answer is correct: Riku never became a Heartless. He was just a jerk. He didn't really lose anything other than control.

As for the Unversed, I figured that they would follow the pattern of parts that constitute a person that remain unused. But seeing as how Heartless didn't exist before KHI (according to the Ansem Reports), I supposed that the Unversed would be there to fill that void. Gotta have something to fight. I don't think that Unversed would "turn into" a Heartless or a Nobody after a certain point. If we applied an evolutionary approach, then we should have seen Unversed in KHI and KHII (very definitely KHII).

Either way, I don't see Unversed finally turning into a Heartless after consuming all of the negative emotions possible. Riku and Sora at certain points would have compromised themselves if that were the case. Plus, not all Heartless are malicious or inherently violent. White Mushrooms and Truffles don't attack people for the sake of attacking. I didn't sense negativity when I juggled them in the air.

[Ouch!]

As for the Unversed, I figured that they would follow the pattern of parts that constitute a person that remain unused. But seeing as how Heartless didn't exist before KHI (according to the Ansem Reports), I supposed that the Unversed would be there to fill that void. Gotta have something to fight. I don't think that Unversed would "turn into" a Heartless or a Nobody after a certain point. If we applied an evolutionary approach, then we should have seen Unversed in KHI and KHII (very definitely KHII).
Nomura, being fairly liberal with information, has already confirmed that Unversed no longer exist by the time of Kingdom Hearts. The reason is unclear.

[Tavrobel]

Nomura, being fairly liberal with information, has already confirmed that Unversed no longer exist by the time of Kingdom Hearts. The reason is unclear.

I don't suppose that every set of time in the KH universe would have different enemies, depending on the Keyblade users/jerks who try to destroy stuff. After all, if all of the enemies from way back when don't appear anymore, and that the enemies of today didn't exist back then, the only possible conclusion is that Jesus did it.

[PuPu]

In KHI, the place was a dark world where the Heartless reside and possibly originate from.No, what you saw was the Realm of Darkness. The Realm of Darkness is where all Heartless come from, and you were able to see them because you were looking through the Door to Darkness.


In KH2, its still a world of darkness but surprisingly looks like the World That Never Was. ...Kingdom Hearts isn't a world. It's just a giant collection of hearts. The World That Never Was that you see "inside" Kingdom Hearts was created by Xemnas, who absorbed KH's power.


I can see Ansem (Xehanort Apprentice) seeing KH as a world of darkness filled with HeartlessIt's not a world of darkness though. You know, Sora even said "Kingdom Hearts is light!"


and I can see Xemnas viewing it as a place of nothingness that all things begin and end as. No, Xemnas saw it as a power source. Xemnas even says "Hearts are power" and KH was just that, a giant collection of hearts.


since the door wasn't even open to it until the very endBecause Sora and Mickey locked the door to KH in KH1, and they didn't re-open it again until they needed to go in again.


so the world becomes a realm of darkness again despite the Heartless not being present in the world. Xemnas created another TWTNW because he absorbed KH's power.


In KH1, its a place in the heart of darkness where destroyed worlds go toYou're confusing KH with the Realm of Darkness. When the worlds were "destroyed" they were swallowed by darkness and sent to the Realm of Darkness.

Ansem: This world has been connected. Tied to the Darkness...


whereas in KH2, Order XIII artificially creates the doorwayOrganization XIII didn't create a doorway at all. Xemnas absorbed KH's power, and the door that Sora walks through was created by the worlds, as Mickey says.


At any rate, I don't think anyone is trying to argue that Kingdom Hearts is in any way especially deep. It's really not. It only flirts with issues belying any amount of depth. However, I think you're severely exaggerating how confusing it is.Tell that to the tons of people who don't understand the game.

"HUNH?!? How was Naminé created if Kairi never became a Heartless?!"

Xemnas was willing to do evil in order to accomplish what he thought would end the suffering of those who were like him (ultimately what can be considered a "good" act).Come on, Tav. I thought you would have known that Xemnas never planned on getting his heart back. He just wanted supreme power.

Here's how Nomura says how you can become whole:

"When heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on."
-Director's Secret Report XIII

Since his Heartless was already defeated, he literally could have had his heart rejoin his body any time he wanted. In fact, he prevented all Nobodies from being whole again by redirecting all hearts to Kingdom Hearts instead of their original bodies, in order to obtain supreme power.



I'm just baffled as to how anything that has been added since Kingdom Hearts I is so difficult to grasp that it's outright rejection.It's difficult to grasp because many people don't bother reading stuff like the (Secret) Ansem Reports or the Director's Secret Report XIII.

[Tavrobel]

Come on, Tav. I thought you would have known that Xemnas never planned on getting his heart back. He just wanted supreme power.

Here's how Nomura says how you can become whole:

"When heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on."
-Director's Secret Report XIII

Since his Heartless was already defeated, he literally could have had his heart rejoin his body any time he wanted. In fact, he prevented all Nobodies from being whole again by redirecting all hearts to Kingdom Hearts instead of their original bodies, in order to obtain supreme power.

Not according to KHII's in-game material; I haven't read the extra material anyways, nor have I played 179.

Normally, I'd advocate using out of game material to support arguments, but when it comes to Nomura, my willingness to accept it is 0%. Simply because he sucks at attempting to expand his world by using forcing people to suffer RTFM syndrome.

[PuPu]

Not according to KHII's in-game material; I haven't read the extra material anyways, nor have I played 179.Speaking of Days, Xion actually figured out Xemnas' true plans and told Roxas to stop him.

Also, check out what Xemnas had to say in the Secret Reports, Day 358...

"With luck, we can bring Roxas back into our fold, but even if Sora should awaken, as the hero of the Keyblade, he is bound to keep unlocking hearts. If he should come to target us, we need simply subdue him and use his powers ourselves once more. I must become one with Kingdom Hearts. I will become a higher existence. All of my true ambitions begin there. "

Once again, he never planned on getting his heart back, and he duped the rest of the Organization just to get what he wanted, which is to become God. In fact, he actually sent Saix to his death when Saix asked him if he could "end this charade." Apparently, the Organization was also full of traitors besides Marluxia and Larxene, and Xemnas knew this the entire time.


Normally, I'd advocate using out of game material to support arguments, but when it comes to Nomura, my willingness to accept it is 0%.

But that doesn't mean that it isn't true, or that I'm wrong. ;)

Please use Spoiler Tags PuPu, some of us have not played 358/2 :p ~WK

[Tavrobel]

I haven't played it, so if this is what is stated in 179, then I have no qualms. I just won't know about it.

It's not about you being right. It's just that Nomura is an idiot.

[Wolf Kanno]

I see what you mean about my confusion of the World of Darkness but I feel part of the confusion comes from Ansems' (Xehanort's Heartless) during the whole final battle sequence as he does tend to use DTD and KH interchangeably but this is due to his own misconceptions of the world. I also do feel that Ansem's way of discussing KH implies it is a place or "World" as opposed to simply an object that Heart's go and come from.

Still there are problems here, when we get to KH2 since KH appears in The World That Never Was and the TWTNW is supposedly a realm that exists in the "World's In-Between" whereas KH1 is quite adamant about KH existing in the World of Darkness (in fact, its interesting to note that KH is the only known thing to exist in the World of Darkness at this point in the series). So how can Xemnas have access to it? Even though KH is there, its supposedly in the World of Darkness and your own party has to travel through the DTD to even get to Xemnas' KH (its remade to look like TWTNW, but it is actually Kingdom Hearts from sources I've read and once again implies KH may actually be a World and not an object). There is a logical discrepancy here that throws off the nature of what KH actually is.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

It is quite possible that there are two different Kingdom Hearts. The KH of the first game can considered, in many ways, the heart of all worlds. The place from which all hearts come and go, the original heart.

In the second game, Kingdom Hearts is created by Xenmas. This project starts in 358/2 Days when both Roxas and Xion are recruited for that very purpose. Later, Org. XIII uses Sora to continue the task of collecting hearts. It is noted that only the keyblades can harvest hearts.

This theory assumes Xenmas did something to prevent the hearts from going to the KH in the World of Darkness, thus forcing them to gather outside the The World That Never Was. Basically stopping them as they cross from the World of Light to the World of Darkness in the World In-Between (where WTNW is found).

[PuPu]

Still there are problems here, when we get to KH2 since KH appears in The World That Never Was and the TWTNW is supposedly a realm that exists in the "World's In-Between" whereas KH1 is quite adamant about KH existing in the World of Darkness

Kingdom Hearts is still in the Realm of Darkness. TWTNW is right on the edge of the Realm of Darkness.

"At present, there are 4 worlds in-between these planes that have appeared.
A) Castle Oblivion
B) Twilight Town
C) Yen Sid's Tower
D) The World That Never Was.

Constructed in this manner, Light < C < B > A > D > Darkness, you can imagine 2 planes with stairs ranging between the worlds."
-Director's Secret Report XIII


Even though KH is there, its supposedly in the World of Darkness and your own party has to travel through the DTD to even get to Xemnas' KH

After Sora defeats Xemnas in the dream-Memory Skyscraper, Xemnas absorbs the power of KH. Meaning KH is actually inside him, because he absorbed it. He "became one with KH," like he said in the Secret Reports of 358/2 Days. The door that SDG travel through leads to KH, which happens to be inside Xemnas, because as Mickey said, the Worlds created that door. The Worlds created the door to KH in KH1 and they do it again in KH2, even though KH was temporarily relocated.


It is quite possible that there are two different Kingdom Hearts. The KH of the first game can considered, in many ways, the heart of all worlds. The place from which all hearts come and go, the original heart.

"Until now in the Kingdom Hearts (hereafter KH) Series, there have been 2 types of "Kingdom Hearts" referring to the Heart of Worlds and the Heart of Men, could you explain the mechanics of this?

Think of the basic setting of KH as "All life has a heart". The heart of a world can be considered the things of nature, for example, the trees in a forest, a sea or river, a flower and so forth, when they all come together to form a world a large heart will come into existence. And concerning the hearts designated to men, all the hearts of humans and animals living in the world are integrated. As for Kingdom Hearts, think of it as if the heart is essentially the culmination of an invisible "Proof of Life"
-Director's Secret Report XIII


In the second game, Kingdom Hearts is created by Xenmas.

Look at it this way. The KH [of worlds] is the thing that you see in KH1. In KH2, Xemnas combined the already-existing KH [of worlds] with the the KH [of men] because he was re-directing all hearts of people that had become Heartless into the KH [of worlds].


This theory assumes Xenmas did something to prevent the hearts from going to the KH in the World of Darkness, thus forcing them to gather outside the The World That Never Was. Basically stopping them as they cross from the World of Light to the World of Darkness in the World In-Between (where WTNW is found).

...No. Xemnas didn't prevent hearts from going to KH. He was the one who made them go to KH. KH is indeed in the Realm of Darkness, and TWTNW just happens to be within spitting distance of darkness.

The hearts of all the Heartless that Sora defeated weren't meant to go to KH. They were meant to return to the bodies of those who had lost their hearts, wherever they may be, as said in the Director's Secret Report XIII.

[Wolf Kanno]

Still there are problems here, when we get to KH2 since KH appears in The World That Never Was and the TWTNW is supposedly a realm that exists in the "World's In-Between" whereas KH1 is quite adamant about KH existing in the World of Darkness

Kingdom Hearts is still in the Realm of Darkness. TWTNW is right on the edge of the Realm of Darkness.

"At present, there are 4 worlds in-between these planes that have appeared.
A) Castle Oblivion
B) Twilight Town
C) Yen Sid's Tower
D) The World That Never Was.

Constructed in this manner, Light < C < B > A > D > Darkness, you can imagine 2 planes with stairs ranging between the worlds."
-Director's Secret Report XIII

I already understand this but I feel the answer is completely unsatisfactory and contradicts information already stated in the series (and the Director's Reports no less). The world's are separate by a great distance of space in all cases (even the Beach of Nothingness is stated to peer into the World of Darkness by Nomura, he never said you could reach it by being there.) and the World of Darkness presented in KH1 is locked away and yet here's Xemnas, with a Kingdom Hearts in his backyard as if it was always like this. Even if they were in "spitting distance" the worlds should be technically separate from each other by a barrier after the events of KH1. Its obvious that Xemnas didn't use a Corridor of Darkness to reach KH nor did DiZ when he tried to digitize KH. Kingdom Hearts is treated as physically existing in that world despite this contradicting the info given in KH1.



Even though KH is there, its supposedly in the World of Darkness and your own party has to travel through the DTD to even get to Xemnas' KH

After Sora defeats Xemnas in the dream-Memory Skyscraper, Xemnas absorbs the power of KH. Meaning KH is actually inside him, because he absorbed it. He "became one with KH," like he said in the Secret Reports of 358/2 Days. The door that SDG travel through leads to KH, which happens to be inside Xemnas, because as Mickey said, the Worlds created that door. The Worlds created the door to KH in KH1 and they do it again in KH2, even though KH was temporarily relocated.The worlds didn't create the DTD of KH1, the Seven Princess's of Heart created the means to reach it with the Final Keyhole. KH1 pretty much implies that the DTD is at a specific location just as it also implies Kingdom Hearts (or at least the Heart of Worlds) is located in a specific place (World of Darkness) how then can KH and the DTD be ethereal and intangible things that come and go on a whim as KHII implies?

Basically are there two Kingdom Hearts as Nomura implies in his interview? Is the Heart of Worlds located in the Realm of Darkness and is the Heart of Man an abstract concept that exist wherever it wishes to be? If both are one part of the true Kingdom Hearts, how then can Xemnas and Heartless Xehanort truly achive their goals by only obtaining what appears to be one half of the cosmological whole? Or is KH something like a physics and philosophical allusion to the Christian concept of the Trinity? Being both tangible and intangible, being a place both physically and metaphorically.

This is ultimately what I'm trying to discover and regretfully, Nomura's interview only makes the issue more difficult to comprehend.

[PuPu]

I already understand this but I feel the answer is completely unsatisfactory and contradicts information already stated in the series (and the Director's Reports no less).

No...it really doesn't.


The world's are separate by a great distance of space in all cases (even the Beach of Nothingness is stated to peer into the World of Darkness by Nomura, he never said you could reach it by being there.)

Because KH is in a specific part of the World of Darkness, one which TWTNW happens to be near.


and the World of Darkness presented in KH1 is locked away

Mickey, Riku, and the Heartless disagree with this statement.


and yet here's Xemnas, with a Kingdom Hearts in his backyard as if it was always like this.

Um, ya. It's convenient, but it's true.


Even if they were in "spitting distance" the worlds should be technically separate from each other by a barrier after the events of KH1. Its obvious that Xemnas didn't use a Corridor of Darkness to reach KH nor did DiZ when he tried to digitize KH.

Did you miss the whole "Kingdom Hearts isn't a world" deal?


Kingdom Hearts is treated as physically existing in that world despite this contradicting the info given in KH1.

There's obviously more than one way to get to KH. You saw one way in KH1, and you see another way in KH2. It's not contradictory at all, it was never implied that there was only one way to get to KH.


The worlds didn't create the DTD of KH1, the Seven Princess's of Heart created the means to reach it with the Final Keyhole.

Alright, I'll give you that.


KH1 pretty much implies that the DTD is at a specific location

You've got to stop doing this. It didn't "imply" it at all, that place where you fought Xehanort's Heartless in KH1 is really just a random location and not specific at all location that's very close to the Realm of Darkness.


just as it also implies Kingdom Hearts (or at least the Heart of Worlds) is located in a specific place (World of Darkness)

...with more than one way of getting there.


how then can KH and the DTD be ethereal and intangible things that come and go on a whim as KHII implies?

KH didn't come and go on a whim at all. It's in the Realm of Darkness in KH1, still in the Realm of Darkness in KH2. How can the DTD come and go on a whim? It doesn't matter how, all that matters is that it did. When Sora, Mickey, and Riku sealed it in KH1, it went poof and it appeared out of thin air when they needed to open it again. But, as Mickey said, the worlds did it.


Basically are there two Kingdom Hearts as Nomura implies in his interview? Is the Heart of Worlds located in the Realm of Darkness and is the Heart of Man an abstract concept that exist wherever it wishes to be?

Saïx: Pitiful Heartless, mindlessly collecting hearts. And yet they know not
the true power of what they hold. The rage of the Keyblade releases those
hearts. They gather in darkness, masterless and free...until they weave together
to make Kingdom Hearts [of men].


If both are one part of the true Kingdom Hearts, how then can Xemnas
and Heartless Xehanort truly achive their goals by only obtaining what
appears to be one half of the cosmological whole?</pre>Have you been paying attention at all? The KH of worlds already existed, and as Saix said, Xemnas made the KH of men and combined it with the KH of worlds. That's both KH's that he had, until Ansem the Wise blew up the KH of men with his machine, causing most, if not all of the hearts that Xemnas collected to rain down from the sky. As for XH, he only cared about the darkness in KH, not the power that KH has itself.


Or is KH something like a physics and philosophical allusion to the Christian concept of the Trinity? Being both tangible and intangible, being a place both physically and metaphorically.

Uh...no?


This is ultimately what I'm trying to discover and regretfully, Nomura's interview only makes the issue more difficult to comprehend.

Why? Just because it disagrees with your own views?

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

So I only just read the Director's Secret report (your posts made me realize it exists)...

I still say that the KH of World and KH of Men are two separate things. The evidence is in 358/2, since the KH outside TWTNW only appears after Roxas starts collecting hearts for Org. XIII. Were the hearts of men simply added to KH of Worlds, then KH would have always been visible from the Grey Room, but it wasn't.

Also, KH is definitely a place, since that is where the final battle in KHII occurs. Xenmas takes control of the power of KH, that's how he "became one" and had power over it. I don't think it is inside him, the power yes not the physical KH. You might not want to call it a "world" but it is a place. Just because KH, whichever one you want, is the "Proof of Life" doesn't prevent it from being a place as well. As the final battle of KHII clearly indicates.


how then can KH and the DTD be ethereal and intangible things that come and go on a whim as KHII implies?

DTD and Dark Corridors are two different things. DTD is made by the hearts of the Princesses of Heart and leads one from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness. Dark Corridors are summoned by beings with power over Darkness, like Nobodies, Riku and assuming King Mickey (since you know, he has the Keyblade of Darkness) and you travel through Darkness.


You've got to stop doing this. It didn't "imply" it at all, that place where you fought Xehanort's Heartless in KH1 is really just a random location and not specific at all location that's very close to the Realm of Darkness.

The last battle in KHI happens in the Realm of Darkness, somewhere. Just a random place in the Realm of Darkness.

As for the barriers Wolf is mentioning it is the barriers between the worlds, not the one between the realms. To travel between realms you either use DTD, Door to Light or Dark Corridors, at least that is the only way they have shown so far. Apparently Twilight Town is close enough to the Realm of Light that you can just Gummi it.

[Wolf Kanno]

I already understand this but I feel the answer is completely unsatisfactory and contradicts information already stated in the series (and the Director's Reports no less).

No...it really doesn't.



.Director's Secret Report XIII

About KH Worlds

II - Worlds appear in KH, could you please give an explanation of the means of coming and going between them?

At present, there are 4 worlds in-between these planes that have appeared. A) Castle Oblivion, B)Twilight Town, C) Yen Sid's Tower, and D) The World That Never Was. Constructed in this manner, Light < C < B > A > D > Darkness, you can imagine 2 planes with stairs ranging between the worlds. There are 2 means of transfer between these worlds, first being the Gummi Ship Sora uses in what is called the "Sea of Outer Space". In this way they can come and go between the worlds dotted through space. There is an invisible shell covering these worlds, so as to preserve the original world from interference from other worlds. By opening the hearts of each of these worlds this shell is broken and will become a group of shooting stars pouring down. Once settled, these shooting stars will become the Gummi Parts of the Gummi Ship. Because they were originally from the shell covering this world, it becomes possible to interfere into each world

The whole point of KH1 was to seal the world and prevent the Heartless from interfering and destroying the Heart of these individual worlds. One of Sora's missions in KH2 is creating pathways of light between the World's in the Realm of Light. How then can two separate worlds openly interfere with each other at the end of KH2 when its has been stated time and agin that the world's are separate by a barrier, not to mention the hell you have to go through to get from Twilight Town to The World That Never Was which was only accomplished by going through a Corridor of Darkness.

You are basically saying the rules don't always apply. I mean if it was that easy to get from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness by going through the In-Between Worlds what the smurf was Xehanort's Heartless even bothering with the DTD in KH1?



The world's are separate by a great distance of space in all cases (even the Beach of Nothingness is stated to peer into the World of Darkness by Nomura, he never said you could reach it by being there.)

Because KH is in a specific part of the World of Darkness, one which TWTNW happens to be near.


I can give you that.


[QUOTE=Wolf Kanno;2739003]and the World of Darkness presented in KH1 is locked away

Mickey, Riku, and the Heartless disagree with this statement.

Director's Secret Report XIII

About KH Worlds

II - Worlds appear in KH, could you please give an explanation of the means of coming and going between them?
There is one more method, the use of the "Dark Corridor". There are those who are on a fallen path, essentially not being on the path they should be. Only those who can be said to have a Dark existence or an In-between existence can make these doorways. On rare occasion those with particularly strong feelings or hatred, such as the case with Beast and Diz and perhaps others like them can open these paths. However you must be careful when coming into contact with such darkness. As such, if you use these paths too often you will be completely swallowed by darkness. Sora has used these paths several times before, but the degree of frequency hasn't allowed the darkness to stain his heart, so you can think of the influential power of darkness as being dependent upon the strength of the persons heart.

As for the Nobodies who have no heart and the King and Riku, using these paths many times doesn't concern them. Why doesn't the darkness progressively swallow them you ask? There are secret similarities between the two that are talked about in the game.

Seeing as how Heartless can still get into world's after they have had their Heart's sealed away shows that locking has limitations. They prevent the flood of Darkness into the Realm of Light but it still can't prevent entities from interacting between both worlds if they use Corridors of Darkness. Riku only made it to Castle Oblivion cause "his heart led him to Sora".




Even if they were in "spitting distance" the worlds should be technically separate from each other by a barrier after the events of KH1. Its obvious that Xemnas didn't use a Corridor of Darkness to reach KH nor did DiZ when he tried to digitize KH.

Did you miss the whole "Kingdom Hearts isn't a world" deal?

"What in the world do you think you're prattling on about? Kingdom Hearts belongs to me! The Heart of all Kingdoms! The Heart of all that lives! A dominion (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dominion) fit to be called Kingdom Hearts must be my dominion!" -Maleficent Kingdom Hearts 1

I don't mean to create confusion by saying its a world in the sense that KH series defines a world, I just mean to imply it is a physical place and not a philosophical abstract thought like VII's "Promised Land". The fact of the matter is you can journey and get there cause its a place you can travel to.



Kingdom Hearts is treated as physically existing in that world despite this contradicting the info given in KH1.

There's obviously more than one way to get to KH. You saw one way in KH1, and you see another way in KH2. It's not contradictory at all, it was never implied that there was only one way to get to KH.

It is partially contradicting or at least bad writing as Xehanort's Heartless as well as the Disney Villains bust there asses to create the Final Keyhole and open the DTD to reach Kingdom Hearts whereas Organization XIII simply forms one in there backyard. having easy access to it despite Maleficent and Xehanort's Heartless having the same powers to travel to the Realm of Darkness. I find this makes everything in KH1 seem pointless and silly since there is an incredibly simply way to get to KH revealed in the sequel. Am I the only one who sees this as faulty writing?



KH1 pretty much implies that the DTD is at a specific location

You've got to stop doing this. It didn't "imply" it at all, that place where you fought Xehanort's Heartless in KH1 is really just a random location and not specific at all location that's very close to the Realm of Darkness.

I would say the End of the World is a real location, temporary but hardly random. It also a place that cannot be accessed openly without the Final Keyhole, I would say that constitutes a "specific location". Even if that location is simply a place close to the Realm of Darkness its still a specific place considering many of the other world's that qualify for being close don't. Considering the nature of the Heartless and the End of the World as well as their correlations to the Realm of Darkness, I can't see the DTD opening anywhere else in the KH universe.

If it appeared in the World That Never Was, Xehanort's Heartless could just pluck KH out of the sky ;)



just as it also implies Kingdom Hearts (or at least the Heart of Worlds) is located in a specific place (World of Darkness)

...with more than one way of getting there.

...that makes the first game seem retarded and a waste of time since KH can be down the street...



how then can KH and the DTD be ethereal and intangible things that come and go on a whim as KHII implies?

KH didn't come and go on a whim at all. It's in the Realm of Darkness in KH1, still in the Realm of Darkness in KH2. How can the DTD come and go on a whim? It doesn't matter how, all that matters is that it did. When Sora, Mickey, and Riku sealed it in KH1, it went poof and it appeared out of thin air when they needed to open it again. But, as Mickey said, the worlds did it.

No, KH is magically in the World That Never Was that is in the In-between Realm. Yes, its close to the Realm of Darkness but its still stated by Nomura to not be a direct part of the Realm of Darkness.

At present, there are 4 worlds in-between these planes that have appeared. A) Castle Oblivion, B)Twilight Town, C) Yen Sid's Tower, and D) The World That Never Was. - Director's Secret Report XIII

The World That Never was is a World, separate from the other worlds but it still has a barrier like other worlds, you're party was only able to reach said World through a Corridor of Darkness from another World of In-Between; showing that even when World's share the same property, they still don't have easy access to each other. The Major error comes from the simple fact that this World, stated to be specifically in the Realm of In-Between by the creator, can freely access the Realm of Darkness.

Even after beating Xemnas, Sora and Riku find themselves at the dark coastline which is stated by Nomura to still not be a part of the Realm of Darkness but as close as you can get. Between the In-Between World and the Realm of Darkness

What can be called the dark coastline seen at the beginning and end of KHII is the tip of a world. It is not strictly part of the realm of darkness but rather what serves as the boundary line in between the dark and the in-between

Once again, how can Xemnas and Org. XIII interact with a KH in an In-Between World when it is stated to be in the Realm of Darkness and there is a clear dividing line between this world and that realm?




Basically are there two Kingdom Hearts as Nomura implies in his interview? Is the Heart of Worlds located in the Realm of Darkness and is the Heart of Man an abstract concept that exist wherever it wishes to be?

Saïx: Pitiful Heartless, mindlessly collecting hearts. And yet they know not
the true power of what they hold. The rage of the Keyblade releases those
hearts. They gather in darkness, masterless and free...until they weave together
to make Kingdom Hearts [of men]

Yes, KH forms in the Realm of Darkness, World That Never Was is not part of the Realm of Darkness, yet KH forms in this Wolrd no less. Thank you for proving this inconsistency. ;)

If both are one part of the true Kingdom Hearts, how then can Xemnas
and Heartless Xehanort truly achieve their goals by only obtaining what
appears to be one half of the cosmological whole?Have you been paying attention at all? The KH of worlds already existed, and as Saix said, Xemnas made the KH of men and combined it with the KH of worlds. That's both KH's that he had, until Ansem the Wise blew up the KH of men with his machine, causing most, if not all of the hearts that Xemnas collected to rain down from the sky. As for XH, he only cared about the darkness in KH, not the power that KH has itself.



XH believed KH true nature was darkness... I would say he cared about the whole package since he believed KH to be darkness.

I'm also curious to know where you came up with Xemnas' plan to combine the Hearts of World with the Hearts of Men since I don't remember him ever stating such a grandiose plan nor do I remember Saix saying anything like that, even the quote above simply refers to Hearts returning to darkness and forming KH which is something stated more or less in KH1. Is this another reference to 358/2?


[QUOTE=PuPu;2739025]Why? Just because it disagrees with your own views?

No, because it disagrees with its own metaphysics stated by the creator. As I said, he states worlds are separate, forces the player through hoops to overcome these basic rules of the game universe and then turns around and has the villains break all the rules yet never explain how they did. He even has one set of villains go through hell and back to reach it and another set have the easiest time getting it and are only restricted by minor details.

Not to mention KH is basically a McGuffin who is said to have one set of rules in KH1 and then has conflicting rules in KH2, Summoner of Leviathan even said in his post that
KH doesn't even form in WTNW until Roxas and Xion go into action and create what appears to be a new KH in their own world despite players knowing that the original KH is somewhere in the Realm of Darkness.

Basically, I wish to discuss the nature of KH which is both a place and concept. XH seeked KH the "place" which is made from the Heart's of World and Heart's of Men; while Org XIII created their own KH through the Hearts of Men. If KH can be artifically created, how did Xemnas do it? How could he stop hearts from returning to the KH in the Realm of Darkness? Now that Xemnas is gone, what became of the KH he created? Did it return to the true KH? or did it also fall into darkness and create a new legion of Heartless in The World That Never Was like when Asme tried to destroy it originally.

[PuPu]

I still say that the KH of World and KH of Men are two separate things. The evidence is in 358/2, since the KH outside TWTNW only appears after Roxas starts collecting hearts for Org. XIII. Were the hearts of men simply added to KH of Worlds, then KH would have always been visible from the Grey Room, but it wasn't.The KH of Worlds was locked away in KH1, so Xemnas needed to KH of men in order for him to get the KH of worlds. After all, if he could already see the KH of worlds, he'd be fusing with it already.


Also, KH is definitely a place, since that is where the final battle in KHII occurs.The part between entering the door and defeating Chair Xemnas 1 is not inside Kingdom Hearts. It is inside a world that Xemnas created using the power of Kingdom Hearts, similar to how when Sora fought Xemnas one-on-one, the Memory Skyscraper wasn't the actual one in TWTNW, it was just a place that Xemnas created.

Then you are back in the "real" TWNTW again after defeating Chair Xemnas 1, and then you go to the Realm of Nothing for Zebra Xemnas.


Xenmas takes control of the power of KH, that's how he "became one" and had power over it. I don't think it is inside him, the power yes not the physical KH.That's not what "become one with" means. See: Roxas becomes one with Sora, Xion becomes one with Roxas, Naminé becomes one with Kairi, etc.


You might not want to call it a "world" but it is a place. Just because KH, whichever one you want, is the "Proof of Life" doesn't prevent it from being a place as well. As the final battle of KHII clearly indicates.I'm sorry, but did you just say "A heart is a place"? Not that it matters, because if it isn't a world, then it doesn't have the barriers around that all the other worlds have.


The last battle in KHI happens in the Realm of Darkness, somewhere. Just a random place in the Realm of Darkness.Uh, no. It was in a place in the Realm of In-between that was close to the Realm of Darkness. Riku and Mickey were the ones actually in the Realm of Darkness.


As for the barriers Wolf is mentioning it is the barriers between the worlds, not the one between the realms. To travel between realms you either use DTD, Door to Light or Dark Corridors, at least that is the only way they have shown so far. Apparently Twilight Town is close enough to the Realm of Light that you can just Gummi it.What? SDG have easily been able to travel between Realm of In-between Worlds and Realm of Light Worlds in both KH1 and KH2.


The whole point of KH1 was to seal the world and prevent the Heartless from interfering and destroying the Heart of these individual worlds. One of Sora's missions in KH2 is creating pathways of light between the World's in the Realm of Light. How then can two separate worlds openly interfere with each other at the end of KH2 when its has been stated time and agin that the world's are separate by a barrier, not to mention the hell you have to go through to get from Twilight Town to The World That Never Was which was only accomplished by going through a Corridor of Darkness.As Yen Sid said, the pathways that Sora made in KH2 were made specifically for him, not the Heartless, Org13, or anyone else. After all, the Heartless and Org13 were using their own paths, Dark Corridors.



You are basically saying the rules don't always apply. I mean if it was that easy to get from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness by going through the In-Between Worlds what the smurf was Xehanort's Heartless even bothering with the DTD in KH1?The DTD led him to the specific part of the Realm of Darkness with Kingdom Hearts, the thing which he thought was full of dark energy.


Seeing as how Heartless can still get into world's after they have had their Heart's sealed away shows that locking has limitations. They prevent the flood of Darkness into the Realm of Light but it still can't prevent entities from interacting between both worlds if they use Corridors of Darkness. Riku only made it to Castle Oblivion cause "his heart led him to Sora".Xemnas didn't go to Kingdom Hearts. He made the KH of worlds go to him, by using his KH of men.


I don't mean to create confusion by saying its a world in the sense that KH series defines a world, I just mean to imply it is a physical place and not a philosophical abstract thought like VII's "Promised Land". The fact of the matter is you can journey and get there cause its a place you can travel to. Are you also saying a heart is a place? And guess what? I can journey my way over to my TV, but I wouldn't call my TV a place.


It is partially contradicting or at least bad writing as Xehanort's Heartless as well as the Disney Villains bust there asses to create the Final Keyhole and open the DTD to reach Kingdom Hearts whereas Organization XIII simply forms one in there backyard.Are you joking? It took ~10 years since Birth By Sleep for Xemnas and the Organization to create Heartless out of people and then collect all of those hearts in order to make the KH of men. It took nearly just as long for XH and Maleficent & friends to find the Princesses of Hearts as well.



having easy access to it despite Maleficent and Xehanort's Heartless having the same powers to travel to the Realm of Darkness.It's not like you can just go to the Realm of Darkness and randomly search for it. That's like a one in infinity chance of finding something in an entire dimension, not to mention that knowing KH, it probably isn't just going to let people get near it to absorb its power.


I would say the End of the World is a real location, temporary but hardly random. It also a place that cannot be accessed openly without the Final Keyhole, I would say that constitutes a "specific location".I'm sorry, did you just call a giant door, a place?


Considering the nature of the Heartless and the End of the World as well as their correlations to the Realm of DarknessWhat does this even mean?


I can't see the DTD opening anywhere else in the KH universe. But you did, and you can't just go "nu-uh, it's only supposed to open in one place by this one method in KH1!"


If it appeared in the World That Never Was, Xehanort's Heartless could just pluck KH out of the sky ;)KH didn't appear in TWTNW.


...that makes the first game seem retarded and a waste of time since KH can be down the street......which could only be accessed by collecting several billions of hearts...


No, KH is magically in the World That Never Was that is in the In-between Realm. Yes, its close to the Realm of Darkness but its still stated by Nomura to not be a direct part of the Realm of Darkness.In this quote, made up lies. At this point, I shouldn't even bother continuing until you show me the actual evidence.


The Major error comes from the simple fact that this World, stated to be specifically in the Realm of In-Between by the creator, can freely access the Realm of Darkness. Lol, no. Xemnas didn't go to KH in the Realm of Darkness. He made KH come to him, in TWTNW. Notice that after you defeat Chair Xemnas 1, you're right back in TWTNW.


Even after beating Xemnas, Sora and Riku find themselves at the dark coastline which is stated by Nomura to still not be a part of the Realm of Darkness but as close as you can get. Between the In-Between World and the Realm of DarknessThey never went to the Realm of Darkness during the battle with Xemnas, so I don't see your point.


Once again, how can Xemnas and Org. XIII interact with a KH in an In-Between World when it is stated to be in the Realm of Darkness and there is a clear dividing line between this world and that realm? Xemnas and the Org never went into the Realm of Darkness, the Hearts did. And once again, the KH of men is not in TWTNW.


Yes, KH forms in the Realm of Darkness, World That Never Was is not part of the Realm of Darkness, yet KH forms in this Wolrd no less. Thank you for proving this inconsistency.There's just one little problem with what you said. That it's wrong.


XH believed KH true nature was darkness... I would say he cared about the whole package since he believed KH to be darkness. And the difference is that Xemnas cared about specifically the entire power of hearts, whereas XH only cared about the darkness that happens to come from hearts.



I'm also curious to know where you came up with Xemnas' plan to combine the Hearts of World with the Hearts of Men since I don't remember him ever stating such a grandiose plan nor do I remember Saix saying anything like that, even the quote above simply refers to Hearts returning to darkness and forming KH which is something stated more or less in KH1. Is this another reference to 358/2?
I can see why that post is somewhat confusing. Saix didn't say that Xemnas combined the two, but he did say that Xemnas made the KH of men. But again, if you remember that Ansem the Wise blew a huge hole into KH, and Xemnas said that he'll needed to "start all over again" and then told the Keybladers to "bring him more hearts" obviously his KH of men got ruined and started raining hearts. But he still managed to absorb KH's power, the KH of World's power that is.


No, because it disagrees with its own metaphysics stated by the creator. As I said, he states worlds are separate, forces the player through hoops to overcome these basic rules of the game universe and then turns around and has the villains break all the rules yet never explain how they did.-The pathways created in KH2 were for Sora only.
-Villains use Dark Corridor hax.


He even has one set of villains go through hell and back to reach it and another set have the easiest time getting it and are only restricted by minor details.Finding 7 Princesses in an entire dimension vs. collecting billions of hearts

Yeah, real difference in difficulty there.



and create what appears to be a new KH in their own world despite players knowing that the original KH is somewhere in the Realm of Darkness.And the players should know that they are looking at the KH of men that Xemnas created in the Realm of Darkness, since it's easy to see the Realm of Darkness from TWTNW. I'm still not getting how you think the KH of men is in TWTNW and not the Realm of Darkness.



If KH can be artifically created, how did Xemnas do it? ...by taking billions of hearts and having them cluster together. You literally see him do it in KH2.


How could he stop hearts from returning to the KH in the Realm of Darkness?They don't normally return to KH, they return to their original bodies, as said in the DSR13.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

The game CLEARLY states several times that Kingdom Hearts is a place. You have to basically ignore what everyone else says to think otherwise. Nomura never said it wasn't a place either.


Xemnas appears defeated, returning Sora to the Castle That Never Was, but Xemnas is still alive and well, basking inside Kingdom Hearts, urging it to join forces with him to gain the power needed to destroy their common enemies. Sora and the others try to stop him, but it is too late, and Xemnas is absorbed into Kingdom Hearts. Fortunately, the worlds created a door for Sora and the others to enter, for they wanted them to be the guardians of their destiny. They then follow Xemnas into Kingdom Hearts, but they see that Xemnas has taken its power and transformed the realm into a place resembling the World That Never Was with a giant fortress in the middle.

So yeah, KH is pretty much confirmed to be an actually place.

As for a heart being a place, KH is more than a single heart. Furthermore, it is not an unusual idea if you know anything about Buddhism. In Pure Land thought, Amida can be thought of being a mental state/state of consciousness, the nembutsu, his Western Pure Land, and some other things. This might seem tangential, but it purpose is to say that yeah KH is the integration of hearts but it can be a place at the same time.

Also, I assume that the In-Between Worlds are close enough to the Realm of Light that you can Gummi Ship it. TWTNW is closer to the Realm of Darkness thus the reason that the first time you go to it you must take a Corridors to Darkness/Dark Corridors.

Also, I was specifically talking about DTD and Dark Corridors in regards of travelling between the Realm of Light and the Realm of Darkness. I said "realms", I know but I wasn't really considering In-Between during that.

Wolf said that End of World is a place, not the DTD which is located therein.

I am pretty sure the two KHs never became one. There is a lot more evidence indicating two KH simultaneously existing than to theorize that the two became one. Basically, KH of Worlds is sealed away so Xemnas can't get to it, so he makes his own using the hearts freed by the Keyblade masters. I do not recall at any point there being indication for the seal locking away the KH of Worlds being broken or the two coming into one.

[PuPu]

The game CLEARLY states several times that Kingdom Hearts is a place.

The only stuff I remember is stuff like "the place where all hearts go" or something like that. But so what? My computer is the "place" where all my personal data goes, and that doesn't make my computer a place.


Nomura never said it wasn't a place either.

Don't give me "well nothing says I'm wrong" BS. Nomura also never said that KH2FM wasn't going to be released outside of Japan either, but we all know the answer to that.


So yeah, KH is pretty much confirmed to be an actually place.

If you're going to try and prove me wrong, don't use worthless, unmoderated, trash, wikia sites to do so.



This might seem tangential, but it purpose is to say that yeah KH is the integration of hearts but it can be a place at the same time.

Now you're just defining "place" in an abstract way. Either way, because KH is not a world, it doesn't have the walls that other worlds do.


Also, I assume that the In-Between Worlds are close enough to the Realm of Light that you can Gummi Ship it. TWTNW is closer to the Realm of Darkness thus the reason that the first time you go to it you must take a Corridors to Darkness/Dark Corridors.

And why would being closer to darkness prevent Sora from getting there by Gummi Ship?


Also, I was specifically talking about DTD and Dark Corridors in regards of travelling between the Realm of Light and the Realm of Darkness. I said "realms", I know but I wasn't really considering In-Between during that.


You're right that the DTD and Dark Corridors can get you to go from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness. But what does jumping directly from Light to Dark and skipping In-Between have to do with what you are saying?


Wolf said that End of World is a place, not the DTD which is located therein.

You're not in End of the World anymore once you are done fighting Ansem 2, and the DTD is NOT in EotW.



I am pretty sure the two KHs never became one. There is a lot more evidence indicating two KH simultaneously existing than to theorize that the two became one. Basically, KH of Worlds is sealed away so Xemnas can't get to it, so he makes his own using the hearts freed by the Keyblade masters. I do not recall at any point there being indication for the seal locking away the KH of Worlds being broken or the two coming into one.

Xemnas' KH of men was ruined by Ansem the Wise's machine, but he still absorbed KH. The KH that wasn't ruined. The KH of worlds.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

So wait, Wolf Kanno's quoting Maleficent doesn't count as it being a place/location? Or how about the fact that the you go through the door created by the worlds at the end of KHII, a door that quite obviously leads you into KH where Xemnas is? The mere fact of "going to" KH means that it is a location that you can go to. The last fight begins inside KH that has been manipulated by Xemnas. Why can't this be inside KH? Yes, it is a space manipulated by Xemnas who has the power of KH but that does not mean it cannot be inside KH. Furthermore, you earlier compared the merger of Xemnas and KH to that of Nobodies and their owners. And we agree that the door created by the worlds is like the DTD: it leads to KH. So if KH is "inside Xemnas" as it is according to you, and you go through the door to KH, logic indicates that you are not only inside Xemnas but also in KH since the two are one in the same.

Not really an abstract definition. Just look it up, what I said is not really outside our conventional usage of the word.

I think I should state this clear for you, both me and Wolf are not saying that KH is a world like Neverland, TWTNW, or whatever, we are merely stating that it is a place, a location. If I recall correctly, Wolf had said so himself earlier and now I am saying so too.

Oh and if I was data then a computer would be a place to me. :P


You're right that the DTD and Dark Corridors can get you to go from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness. But what does jumping directly from Light to Dark and skipping In-Between have to do with what you are saying?

It had to do with travelling and an earlier point which I cannot find right now.


Xemnas' KH of men was ruined by Ansem the Wise's machine, but he still absorbed KH. The KH that wasn't ruined. The KH of worlds.

Or it could be that it all was the KH of Men and it was partially destroyed and what remained was absorbed? Nothing says that couldn't be a possibility except for you though there is no concrete proof to say the two were merged in the first place.

We all agree that the KH of Worlds is in the Realm of Darkness (ref: KHI). We agree that Xemnas is manipulating the hearts of men to create a KH of Men (ref: 358/2 Days and KHII). Now where does it say that the two have to become one? Also, if the KH of Men is in the Realm of Darkness, which is the logically conclusion since you are saying it is not in TWTNW, then that means Xemnas is pretty fricken strong since he is influencing the hearts to gather and form KH of Men, since their natural inclination is to return to their body or to suspend (according to the Director's Secret Report). Also, there is the problem of basic metaphysical placement if the KH in KHII is not in TWTNW but in the Realm of Darkness yet the Dark Coastline where Riku and Sora are at the end of KHII overlooks the Realm of Darkness. So in one case we have the Realm of Darkness "above" (in the sky) the Realm of Twilight, but in the other they are side by side. Am I the only one who thinks this is inconsistent?

[Wolf Kanno]

Uh, no. It was in a place in the Realm of In-between that was close to the Realm of Darkness. Riku and Mickey were the ones actually in the Realm of Darkness.


Technically its not even an official world of In-Between

At present, there are 4 worlds in-between these planes that have appeared. A) Castle Oblivion, B)Twilight Town, C) Yen Sid's Tower, and D) The World That Never Was. - Director's Secret Report XIII



The whole point of KH1 was to seal the world and prevent the Heartless from interfering and destroying the Heart of these individual worlds. One of Sora's missions in KH2 is creating pathways of light between the World's in the Realm of Light. How then can two separate worlds openly interfere with each other at the end of KH2 when its has been stated time and again that the world's are separate by a barrier, not to mention the hell you have to go through to get from Twilight Town to The World That Never Was which was only accomplished by going through a Corridor of Darkness.As Yen Sid said, the pathways that Sora made in KH2 were made specifically for him, not the Heartless, Org13, or anyone else. After all, the Heartless and Org13 were using their own paths, Dark Corridors.You completely missed the point of my statement. The world's are seperated by Barriers, The World That Never Was is an In Between World, so its barrier should prevent people to freely move in and out of it without the aid of a Gummi Ship or a Corridor of Darkness. Technically, reaching Kingdom Hearts from TWTNW should be impossible and the idea of summoning KH to a world outside of the Realm of Darkness has never once been stated to happen in any of the games. :p





Seeing as how Heartless can still get into world's after they have had their Heart's sealed away shows that locking has limitations. They prevent the flood of Darkness into the Realm of Light but it still can't prevent entities from interacting between both worlds if they use Corridors of Darkness. Riku only made it to Castle Oblivion cause "his heart led him to Sora".Xemnas didn't go to Kingdom Hearts. He made the KH of worlds go to him, by using his KH of men.Proof? He never once said anything about bringing KH of Worlds to him with the KH of Men. You're making stuff up since you have yet to once bring real evidence to say he did this.




I don't mean to create confusion by saying its a world in the sense that KH series defines a world, I just mean to imply it is a physical place and not a philosophical abstract thought like VII's "Promised Land". The fact of the matter is you can journey and get there cause its a place you can travel to. Are you also saying a heart is a place? And guess what? I can journey my way over to my TV, but I wouldn't call my TV a place.In KH? Yes it is. If a massive amount of Hearts leads to the creation of Heart the size of a small moon then yes its a place. A single rock may not be a place but when you get a few billion together to form a single object its a place.




It is partially contradicting or at least bad writing as Xehanort's Heartless as well as the Disney Villains bust there asses to create the Final Keyhole and open the DTD to reach Kingdom Hearts whereas Organization XIII simply forms one in there backyard.Are you joking? It took ~10 years since Birth By Sleep for Xemnas and the Organization to create Heartless out of people and then collect all of those hearts in order to make the KH of men. It took nearly just as long for XH and Maleficent & friends to find the Princesses of Hearts as well.We don't even know what Maleficent has been doing for the last ten years or how long she has been trying to gather the Princess of Hearts. For all we know, she could have started a few months before KH1 began. Until Birth By Sleep we won't know. As for Org. XIII, it took 9 years for a new Keyblade master to appear, it took them little over a year to amass enough hearts for them to create a artificial KH. Yeah, its pretty easy to do when you've got the tools to pull it off.




having easy access to it despite Maleficent and Xehanort's Heartless having the same powers to travel to the Realm of Darkness.It's not like you can just go to the Realm of Darkness and randomly search for it. That's like a one in infinity chance of finding something in an entire dimension, not to mention that knowing KH, it probably isn't just going to let people get near it to absorb its power.This is completely baseless conjecture, we know very little about the Realm of Darkness so its impossible to say whether it would be difficult to find it in the KH universe. Considering the biggest hurdle for all the villains in the series is actually getting into the Realm of Darkness, I would say its probably not that hard to find it once you get there as XH found out the hard way.




I would say the End of the World is a real location, temporary but hardly random. It also a place that cannot be accessed openly without the Final Keyhole, I would say that constitutes a "specific location".I'm sorry, did you just call a giant door, a place?
No, I said the End of the World is. I did not say anything about the DTD being a place. Please stop putting words into my mouth.




Considering the nature of the Heartless and the End of the World as well as their correlations to the Realm of DarknessWhat does this even mean?End of the World is a place where worlds that have lost their hearts to darkness end up, Heartless are hearts that have fallen into darkness the Realm of Darkness is the smurfing Realm of Darkness. It makes sense the entryway to the Realm of Darkness would be a place plunged into darkness...




I can't see the DTD opening anywhere else in the KH universe. But you did, and you can't just go "nu-uh, it's only supposed to open in one place by this one method in KH1!"The door that appears before the Xemnas fight is never called the DTD nor does it even resemble the DTD from KH1. It is only said to lead to KH, not the Realm of Darkness where KH lies, which in context of the scene would most likely refer to the moon in the sky. So yeah... the true DTD did only appear in one place. ;)




If it appeared in the World That Never Was, Xehanort's Heartless could just pluck KH out of the sky ;)KH didn't appear in TWTNW.Yeah it does... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_gnCaaX3QY&NR=1)The KH made from the Hearts of Men is obviously right above the Headquarters of ORG. XIII its obviously only a dozen yards away if you watch the scene carefully. Since The World That Never Was is not actually in the Realm of Darkness and since we never witness Xemnas summoning KH to TWTNW it seems pretty certain that the KH of Men exists in TWTNW.




...that makes the first game seem retarded and a waste of time since KH can be down the street......which could only be accessed by collecting several billions of hearts...Which took them a little over a year to do :roll2 Besides, you once again miss the context of my point which is that the KH of Worlds that resides in the Realm of Darkness can not be reached from the Realm of Light or World In-Between without the DTD.




No, KH is magically in the World That Never Was that is in the In-between Realm. Yes, its close to the Realm of Darkness but its still stated by Nomura to not be a direct part of the Realm of Darkness.In this quote, made up lies. At this point, I shouldn't even bother continuing until you show me the actual evidence.No, you just don't pay attention...

Light (as in Realm of Light) < Yen Sid's Tower < Twilight Town > Castle Oblivion > World that Never Was > Dark (Realm of Darkness)

These worlds are referred to as the Worlds In-Between cause they don't exist in the Realm of Light or Darkness. They have influences due to proximity but its not part of either Realm. Stating that any of these worlds belong to Light or Darkness would be like saying Twilight (as in time) is definetly night when its called Twilight for a reason. There is no point in giving it a name like In-Between if its one or the other. My whole argument you've been ignoring is that TWTNW is a separate world that is not part of the Realm of Darkness so how can anyone in TWTNW affect thing in the Realm of Darkness. Its like looking across the border and saying you can affect what goes on over their with the power of your mind.

Also, the Dark Coastline is stated by Nomura to be the "tip of the world" and the dividing line between the In-Between Worlds and the Realm of Darkness, which means that the In-Between Worlds are not located in either realm which means I'm not lying.




The Major error comes from the simple fact that this World, stated to be specifically in the Realm of In-Between by the creator, can freely access the Realm of Darkness. Lol, no. Xemnas didn't go to KH in the Realm of Darkness. He made KH come to him, in TWTNW. Notice that after you defeat Chair Xemnas 1, you're right back in TWTNW.We'll start talking when you start backing up your claims. Once again no, refernce of summoning or anything, he ask his KH to give him power and disappears into his KH.




Even after beating Xemnas, Sora and Riku find themselves at the dark coastline which is stated by Nomura to still not be a part of the Realm of Darkness but as close as you can get. Between the In-Between World and the Realm of DarknessThey never went to the Realm of Darkness during the battle with Xemnas, so I don't see your point.Way to answer without reading my post. :thumb: My point is that they never go to the Realm of Darkness, the KH they visit is exclusively in TWTNW and is separate from the KH of KH1 which is located in the Realm of Darkness. Until you start backing up your claims, its obvious that Xemnas never came in contact with the KH of the Realm of Darkness.




Once again, how can Xemnas and Org. XIII interact with a KH in an In-Between World when it is stated to be in the Realm of Darkness and there is a clear dividing line between this world and that realm? Xemnas and the Org never went into the Realm of Darkness, the Hearts did. And once again, the KH of men is not in TWTNW.Yeah it is, you could spit on it since its on top of the castle, which is in an In-Between World, which is not located in the Realm of Darkness, which is where the Heart of Worlds version of KH exists. Which Xemnas never summons to him with the KH of Men that you say isn't right in front of him since Xemnas is in an In-Between World and never visited the World of Darkness...




Yes, KH forms in the Realm of Darkness, World That Never Was is not part of the Realm of Darkness, yet KH forms in this World no less. Thank you for proving this inconsistency.There's just one little problem with what you said. That it's wrong.But I'm not. :p




XH believed KH true nature was darkness... I would say he cared about the whole package since he believed KH to be darkness. And the difference is that Xemnas cared about specifically the entire power of hearts, whereas XH only cared about the darkness that happens to come from hearts.Which XH thought was all the power since he didn't believe in the light and he knows the hearts are power. They both wanted the same thing. The Director's Report even confirms this.



[QUOTE]
I'm also curious to know where you came up with Xemnas' plan to combine the Hearts of World with the Hearts of Men since I don't remember him ever stating such a grandiose plan nor do I remember Saix saying anything like that, even the quote above simply refers to Hearts returning to darkness and forming KH which is something stated more or less in KH1. Is this another reference to 358/2?
I can see why that post is somewhat confusing. Saix didn't say that Xemnas combined the two, but he did say that Xemnas made the KH of men. But again, if you remember that Ansem the Wise blew a huge hole into KH, and Xemnas said that he'll needed to "start all over again" and then told the Keybladers to "bring him more hearts" obviously his KH of men got ruined and started raining hearts. But he still managed to absorb KH's power, the KH of World's power that is.Um no... he absorbed the remains of his broken KH he never said anything about absorbing the KH of Worlds nor do we even see this happen. The whole scene pretty much points to him absorbing his own KH of Men. He's sitting their pleading with his KH talking about how he'll rebuild it. He never mentions going to the Heart of Worlds and absorbing it. You are just misinterpreting the whole scene.

When your party defeats Xemnas in his own KH, he talks about how he needs more Hearts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA_gmGLXnjU&feature=related), I would think that if he absorbed two KH, he wouldn't need more hearts (he probably should have won if he was that powered up). Its obvious he's referring only to his broken KH. He never absorbed KH of Worlds.




No, because it disagrees with its own metaphysics stated by the creator. As I said, he states worlds are separate, forces the player through hoops to overcome these basic rules of the game universe and then turns around and has the villains break all the rules yet never explain how they did.-The pathways created in KH2 were for Sora only.
-Villains use Dark Corridor hax.Yes, they can use the Corridors of Darkness, but you are saying Xemnas can manipulate KH from outside of the Realm of Darkness where you say both KH lie. This goes against the metaphysics of the KH universe cause the Barriers exist to prevent worlds from interfering with each other or contacting outside of it. The World That Never Was, has a barrier and it was only accessible by way of COD. Once again you are saying Xemnas can manipulate objects outside his realm of influence despite a barrier existing to prevent this kind of stuff from happening.

[Ouch!]

We don't even know what Maleficent has been doing for the last ten years or how long she has been trying to gather the Princess of Hearts. For all we know, she could have started a few months before KH1 began. Until Birth By Sleep we won't know. As for Org. XIII, it took 9 years for a new Keyblade master to appear, it took them little over a year to amass enough hearts for them to create a artificial KH. Yeah, its pretty easy to do when you've got the tools to pull it off.
Trailers have shown that in Birth by Sleep Maleficent is already beginning her search for the Princesses of Heart. She talks to Terra about them in depth. I'm not going to address anything else, since I don't want to put much stock in the Director's Secret Report until that stuff is explained in-game. While a lot of it makes sense for explaining things, it needs more fleshing out before I'm willing to base arguments around it.

[PuPu]

So wait, Wolf Kanno's quoting Maleficent doesn't count as it being a place/location? Or how about the fact that the you go through the door created by the worlds at the end of KHII, a door that quite obviously leads you into KH where Xemnas is?

KH ends up "inside Xemnas" with the whole "becoming one with" thing. Inside a person isn't a "place," inside your mind is also not a place (Sora vs. Xemnas at "Memory Skyscraper")



The mere fact of "going to" KH means that it is a location that you can go to. The last fight begins inside KH that has been manipulated by Xemnas.

Not really. You're saying that you're "going inside a cluster of hearts." Remind me of this the next time I go into a location called "a pile of leaves."


Why can't this be inside KH? Yes, it is a space manipulated by Xemnas who has the power of KH but that does not mean it cannot be inside KH. Furthermore, you earlier compared the merger of Xemnas and KH to that of Nobodies and their owners. And we agree that the door created by the worlds is like the DTD: it leads to KH. So if KH is "inside Xemnas" as it is according to you, and you go through the door to KH, logic indicates that you are not only inside Xemnas but also in KH since the two are one in the same.


If you consider going inside a person as a place, fine. But again, this doesn't even matter anymore since as I've said "KH is not a world, so it doesn't have barriers like the other worlds."


I think I should state this clear for you, both me and Wolf are not saying that KH is a world like Neverland, TWTNW, or whatever, we are merely stating that it is a place, a location. If I recall correctly, Wolf had said so himself earlier and now I am saying so too.

KH isn't a world, so it doesn't have world barriers. I don't need to argue this anymore.



Or it could be that it all was the KH of Men and it was partially destroyed and what remained was absorbed? Nothing says that couldn't be a possibility except for you though there is no concrete proof to say the two were merged in the first place.

I don't think you understand the difference between "partially destroyed" and "ruined," which is what Xemnas said.


Also, if the KH of Men is in the Realm of Darkness, which is the logically conclusion since you are saying it is not in TWTNW, then that means Xemnas is pretty fricken strong since he is influencing the hearts to gather and form KH of Men, since their natural inclination is to return to their body or to suspend (according to the Director's Secret Report).

Yeah, if Xemnas can make re-direct hearts away from bodies, I don't see why he can't re-direct them to the Realm of Darkness, a specific place.


Also, there is the problem of basic metaphysical placement if the KH in KHII is not in TWTNW but in the Realm of Darkness yet the Dark Coastline where Riku and Sora are at the end of KHII overlooks the Realm of Darkness. So in one case we have the Realm of Darkness "above" (in the sky) the Realm of Twilight, but in the other they are side by side. Am I the only one who thinks this is inconsistent?

You're trying to question the physics of video games? Seriously.


Technically its not even an official world of In-Between

Who the hell says it has to be a world? It's just some random place in the realm of In-Between.


You completely missed the point of my statement. The world's are seperated by Barriers, The World That Never Was is an In Between World, so its barrier should prevent people to freely move in and out of it without the aid of a Gummi Ship or a Corridor of Darkness.

What point? Sora and friends got to TWTNW with a Dark Corridor that Axel made, and Xemnas and the Org never even went to the Realm of Darkness (except for temporarily when they use Dark Corridors).


Technically, reaching Kingdom Hearts from TWTNW should be impossible

Xemnas didn't go to KH.


and the idea of summoning KH to a world outside of the Realm of Darkness

Why not? Barriers are for preventing people from crossing into worlds. KH is a bunch of hearts.


has never once been stated to happen in any of the games.

But it did just happen in KH2, regardless of whether or not it happened before.


Proof? He never once said anything about bringing KH of Worlds to him with the KH of Men.

Because...Xemnas absorbs KH without ever going to the Realm of Darkness. He was in TWTNW when he absorbed KH. It's really not that hard to understand.


You're making stuff up since you have yet to once bring real evidence to say he did this.

Oh, irony.


In KH? Yes it is. If a massive amount of Hearts leads to the creation of Heart the size of a small moon then yes its a place. A single rock may not be a place but when you get a few billion together to form a single object its a place.

Again, there's no point in arguing the definition of "place." KH isn't a world, so it doesn't have any world barriers around it, and that's all we need to know.



We don't even know what Maleficent has been doing for the last ten years or how long she has been trying to gather the Princess of Hearts. For all we know, she could have started a few months before KH1 began. Until Birth By Sleep we won't know.

Someone hasn't read up on Birth By Sleep info. Just because you don't know something, doesn't mean that it's false, like you're assuming in this entire debate.



As for Org. XIII, it took 9 years for a new Keyblade master to appear,

Mickey says "hi."


it took them little over a year to amass enough hearts for them to create a artificial KH. Yeah, its pretty easy to do when you've got the tools to pull it off.

They've still been trying to accomplish this goal for 10 years, what with Organization XIII was also being responsible for turning billions of people into Heartless in order to gather the billions of hearts that they needed. And you're acting as if Sora/Roxas were the only ones responsible for gathering all of the hearts that Xemnas used to create the KH of men.



This is completely baseless conjecture, we know very little about the Realm of Darkness so its impossible to say whether it would be difficult to find it in the KH universe.

We've seen how big the Realm of Light is, so that gives us a good sense of how big a realm is in the KH universe. Sora has actually went to the Realm of Darkness several times and saw nothing but completely blackness.


Considering the biggest hurdle for all the villains in the series is actually getting into the Realm of Darkness

Dark Corridors...



I would say its probably not that hard to find it once you get there as XH found out the hard way.

What do you mean? He only knew where it was because gathering the 7 Princesses caused it to be revealed.



No, I said the End of the World is. I did not say anything about the DTD being a place. Please stop putting words into my mouth.

Doesn't even matter. You're not in EoTW anymore by the final series of battles, and neither is the DTD.


End of the World is a place where worlds that have lost their hearts to darkness end up, Heartless are hearts that have fallen into darkness the Realm of Darkness is the smurfing Realm of Darkness.

End of the World is where fragments of a world end up because of the Heartless. The rest of that world ends up swallowed by darkness, meaning the world gets sent to the Realm of Darkness.


It makes sense the entryway to the Realm of Darkness would be a place plunged into darkness...

You're not in EoTW anymore in the final series of battles.


The door that appears before the Xemnas fight is never called the DTD nor does it even resemble the DTD from KH1. It is only said to lead to KH, not the Realm of Darkness where KH lies, which in context of the scene would most likely refer to the moon in the sky. So yeah... the true DTD did only appear in one place.

Fine, it isn't the DTD. But to say that the DTD can only be opened in that one place, by that one method, is still taking a shot in the dark.


The KH made from the Hearts of Men is obviously right above the Headquarters of ORG. XIII its obviously only a dozen yards away if you watch the scene carefully.

Guess what's also a few dozen yards away? That's right, the Realm of Darkness, where KH is standing in, like the game says.


Since The World That Never Was is not actually in the Realm of Darkness and since we never witness Xemnas summoning KH to TWTNW it seems pretty certain that the KH of Men exists in TWTNW.

We see that Xemnas was in TWTNW when he was fusing with KH, and we know that he didn't go to the Realm of Darkness...so yeah, he made KH come to him.


Which took them a little over a year to do

Which they've been working on since BBS...


Besides, you once again miss the context of my point which is that the KH of Worlds that resides in the Realm of Darkness can not be reached from the Realm of Light or World In-Between without the DTD.

Again, what point? Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness anyways in order to get KH to fuse with him.


No, you just don't pay attention...

No, you're just a liar when you said "Nomura said KH isn't in the Realm of Darkness."



My whole argument you've been ignoring is that TWTNW is a separate world that is not part of the Realm of Darkness so how can anyone in TWTNW affect thing in the Realm of Darkness. Its like looking across the border and saying you can affect what goes on over their with the power of your mind.

It seems you're the one that's not paying attention. He can affect things that aren't in the same realm as him. After all, he was in TWTNW (Realm of In-Between) the entire time whenever he re-directed a heart of a Heartless killied by Roxas or Sora in the Realm of Light. Hell, even Maleficent managed to drag Sora into the Realm of Darkness after she herself Dark Corridor'd away to the Realm of Darkness. If Xemnas can re-direct hearts in the Realm of Light while he's in TWNTW, who the hell says he can't affect hearts when they go into the Realm of Darkness, which is also a separate realm from what he's in.

Seriously, at this point, I can tell that you have no idea what you're talking about.


which means I'm not lying.

The part you lied about was "Nomura said that KH is not in the Realm of Darkness."


We'll start talking when you start backing up your claims. Once again no, refernce of summoning or anything, he ask his KH to give him power and disappears into his KH.

His KH of men was ruined by Ansem's machine. So what other KH did he absorb? The non-ruined one, the KH of worlds, that's in the Realm of Darkness. But since he didn't actually go to the Realm of Darkness, and since he and Sora's gang were in TWTNW the whole time, yeah.


Way to answer without reading my post. My point is that they never go to the Realm of Darkness,

This is the only part where you're right.


the KH they visit is exclusively in TWTNW and is separate from the KH of KH1 which is located in the Realm of Darkness.

But it isn't. Even Saix said that the hearts that Org13 collected were gathering in darkness, and then said that those hearts combine together to form the KH of men.


Until you start backing up your claims, its obvious that Xemnas never came in contact with the KH of the Realm of Darkness.


How ironic, considering you're the one going "Look! KH is so close to TWNTW, it must be in TWTNW!" Even though the game says that both KH's are in the Realm of Darkness.

Seriously, you could also see Destiny Islands from Traverse Town and Yen Sid's tower is a train ride away from Twilight Town, but they're all still separate from each other.


Yeah it is, you could spit on it since its on top of the castle, which is in an In-Between World, which is not located in the Realm of Darkness, which is where the Heart of Worlds version of KH exists. Which Xemnas never summons to him with the KH of Men that you say isn't right in front of him since Xemnas is in an In-Between World and never visited the World of Darkness...

The only part of this entire mess that's right is that TWNTW isn't in the Realm of Darkness. We know that the KH of worlds is in the Realm of Darkness, and Saix also said that Xemnas was weaving together the hearts that they collected, that happen to be in the Realm of Darkness.

And the KH of Men is right in front of him...sitting in the Realm of Darkness, which TWTNW is extremely close to.


Which XH thought was all the power since he didn't believe in the light and he knows the hearts are power. They both wanted the same thing. The Director's Report even confirms this.

You were wrong about "what Nomura said" so I want to see the actual part that you're reading.


Um no... he absorbed the remains of his broken KH he never said anything about absorbing the KH of Worlds nor do we even see this happen. The whole scene pretty much points to him absorbing his own KH of Men.

Remains? He used the words "I'll have to start [collecting hearts] all over again." If that doesn't say "totally destroyed..."


He's sitting their pleading with his KH talking about how he'll rebuild it.

Refer to: "because it was totally destroyed."


He never mentions going to the Heart of Worlds and absorbing it. You are just misinterpreting the whole scene.

He never directly says "I'm absorbing the KH of men" either, in this case. Seriously, the whole "it is never said" stuff that you're doing is totally weak.


When your party defeats Xemnas in his own KH, he talks about how he needs more hearts

...because he needed hearts for his KH of men, that was destroyed.


I would think that if he absorbed two KH, he wouldn't need more hearts (he probably should have won if he was that powered up).

He didn't absorb both KHs. One was destroyed by Ansem, so there was only one left by process of elimination.


Yes, they can use the Corridors of Darkness, but you are saying Xemnas can manipulate KH from outside of the Realm of Darkness where you say both KH lie.

He was able to manipulate the Hearts that Roxas and Sora gathered from the Realm of Light while he was in TWTNW, outside the Realm of Light. What exactly is the problem?


This goes against the metaphysics of the KH universe cause the Barriers exist to prevent worlds from interfering with each other or contacting outside of it.

Dark Corridors > World barriers

The metaphysics of KH also say that Dark Corridors can give World Barriers the middle finger.


The World That Never Was, has a barrier and it was only accessible by way of COD. Once again you are saying Xemnas can manipulate objects outside his realm of influence despite a barrier existing to prevent this kind of stuff from happening.

Yeah, because we know that he was able to manipulate hearts in the Realm of Light while he was in TWTNW the entire time, and we saw him do so. Once again, Dark Corridors say "**** you" to the barriers.

[Wolf Kanno]

So wait, Wolf Kanno's quoting Maleficent doesn't count as it being a place/location? Or how about the fact that the you go through the door created by the worlds at the end of KHII, a door that quite obviously leads you into KH where Xemnas is?KH ends up "inside Xemnas" with the whole "becoming one with" thing. Inside a person isn't a "place," inside your mind is also not a place (Sora vs. Xemnas at "Memory Skyscraper")

Yet, Sora was physically taken there seeing as how everyone was looking for him :roll2

Hearts have what appears to be a physical form and since Heartless are corrupted heart and they are also pretty damn physical, I think you need to readjust your thinking on this...




The mere fact of "going to" KH means that it is a location that you can go to. The last fight begins inside KH that has been manipulated by Xemnas.Not really. You're saying that you're "going inside a cluster of hearts." Remind me of this the next time I go into a location called "a pile of leaves."Yes, cause they apparently have a physical property to them. Ansem had them in glass cases in his lab so obviously you can collect them, meld them, and give them form. You may not go to water (heart) but you certainly can go to the ocean (Kingdom Hearts). I wouldn't be thinking of Hearts in KH purely as New Age mumbo jumbo.

Not to mention Xemnas' KH was the size of a moon and it was only made up of Hearts of Men, if KH of Worlds is composed of the Hearts of Worlds and we are told from the Ansem Reports that these Hearts are huge, chances are Kingdom Hearts could easily be the size of a World if not larger. So it is a place.





I think I should state this clear for you, both me and Wolf are not saying that KH is a world like Neverland, TWTNW, or whatever, we are merely stating that it is a place, a location. If I recall correctly, Wolf had said so himself earlier and now I am saying so too.KH isn't a world, so it doesn't have world barriers. I don't need to argue this anymore.KH is never said not to be a world either and we don't know enough about KH since the player never actually interacts with it to say how the rules apply to it. Besides, a world itself is a collection of hearts at its most basic level...




Or it could be that it all was the KH of Men and it was partially destroyed and what remained was absorbed? Nothing says that couldn't be a possibility except for you though there is no concrete proof to say the two were merged in the first place.I don't think you understand the difference between "partially destroyed" and "ruined," which is what Xemnas said.I don't think you grasp the concept of:

Xemnas: Oh its ruined... Now I can't be a god... guess I'll settle for Demi-god and start again from there.

Just because its ruined doesn't mean it can't have a use or be salvaged for other goals. It just means he can't use it for its original intention.



Also, if the KH of Men is in the Realm of Darkness, which is the logically conclusion since you are saying it is not in TWTNW, then that means Xemnas is pretty fricken strong since he is influencing the hearts to gather and form KH of Men, since their natural inclination is to return to their body or to suspend (according to the Director's Secret Report).Yeah, if Xemnas can make re-direct hearts away from bodies, I don't see why he can't re-direct them to the Realm of Darkness, a specific place.What's to say Xemnas only redirected them to him in TWTNW? Hearts gather in Darkness yes, but that doesn't mean they specifically go to the Realm of Darkness and if they did, Xemnas could easily just stop them from passing into the realm. If he's calling the hearts to him, why let them travel to the Realm of Darkness in the first place? He could just as easily trap them at the border and make them into his own Artificial Kingdom Hearts in TWTNW. Oh wait... he did.

Besides, if Xemnas could pull KH of worlds from the Realm of Darkness, why bother making the KH of Men now? He could have easily turned himself into a near god by bringing KH of Worlds to him, release the Heartless into the Realm of Light, absorb all the hearts that the Keyblade wielders set free if not even being strong enough to reduce everything to heart if its within his power and gone on with his plan of remaking the universe. Your "theory" on the end game events do not any make sense from this perspective. If he had the power to do it himself, why bother going through the whole business of making an artificial KH? He could have absorbed KH ten years ago and be god by now.



Technically its not even an official world of In-Between Who the hell says it has to be a world? It's just some random place in the realm of In-Between.Its treated as a World in KH1 and if Yen Sid's castle can be world and Winnie the Pooh's book can be a world, who is to say this isn't? Its obvious the term "World" in KH is ill defined.




Technically, reaching Kingdom Hearts from TWTNW should be impossible Xemnas didn't go to KH.Bringing it to him is also ridiculous and implausible. It never happened.




and the idea of summoning KH to a world outside of the Realm of DarknessWhy not? Barriers are for preventing people from crossing into worlds. KH is a bunch of hearts.We don't know enough about KH to say this is true.



has never once been stated to happen in any of the games.But it did just happen in KH2, regardless of whether or not it happened before.Except there is no proof...



Proof? He never once said anything about bringing KH of Worlds to him with the KH of Men. Because...Xemnas absorbs KH without ever going to the Realm of Darkness. He was in TWTNW when he absorbed KH. It's really not that hard to understand.He never summons the KH of Worlds though, he becomes one with his "ruined" KH and gets his ass kicked.




In KH? Yes it is. If a massive amount of Hearts leads to the creation of Heart the size of a small moon then yes its a place. A single rock may not be a place but when you get a few billion together to form a single object its a place.Again, there's no point in arguing the definition of "place." KH isn't a world, so it doesn't have any world barriers around it, and that's all we need to know.We actually don't know if KH is a world or not, its not defined as a world but its barely defined at all except for being a collection of hearts. We barely know anything about it to make proclamations like "its not a world". No one in the story has been to the true KH so we don't know what KH is actually like. We only have to go on Ansem and Xehnort's research as well as what King Mickey has said.




We don't even know what Maleficent has been doing for the last ten years or how long she has been trying to gather the Princess of Hearts. For all we know, she could have started a few months before KH1 began. Until Birth By Sleep we won't know.Someone hasn't read up on Birth By Sleep info. Just because you don't know something, doesn't mean that it's false, like you're assuming in this entire debate.Oh the irony...




As for Org. XIII, it took 9 years for a new Keyblade master to appear, Mickey says "hi."Donald,
Sorry to rush off without sayin' goodbye, but there's big trouble brewin'.
Not sure why, but the stars have been blinkin' out, one by one. And that means disaster can't be far behind. I hate to leave you all but I've gotta go check into it.
There's someone with a "key"-- the key to our survival. So I need you and Goofy to find him, and stick with him. Got it?
We need that key or we're doomed! So go to Traverse Town and find Leon. He'll point you in the right direction.
P.S. Would ya apologize to Minnie for me? Thanks, pal.
Signed - Mickey (From the beginning of KH1)

Oh yeah... Mickey's been fighting them Heartless for the last ten years. Seeing as he didn't realize they were invading the Realm of Light until the start of KH1.


They've still been trying to accomplish this goal for 10 years, what with Organization XIII was also being responsible for turning billions of people into Heartless in order to gather the billions of hearts that they needed. And you're acting as if Sora/Roxas were the only ones responsible for gathering all of the hearts that Xemnas used to create the KH of men. You are assuming there were others. Yes, we get 6 more (for now) in BBS but they are not fighting Heartless and no one knows if they got a fairy tale ending in BBS.

Terra is a no show, Ventus is gone but apparently in Sora and all that we know is left of Aqua is her armor sleeping under Ansem's secret research lab. We could only begin to wonder what happened to Master Xehanort, Vanitas, and Master Erauqs but considering none of them showed up to help or stop the Realm of Light being nearly destroyed twice makes the idea that they live to see the end of their games highly unlikely.

Even if there were more Keyblade wielders than we are aware of, the situations in KH1 and 2 are extreme enough you would think they would have made themselves known. If they were unaware, they stayed in their own worlds and thus had a much more limited contribution to Xemnas' plan. It still stands that Roxas and Sora were imperative to their plan and the reason they were able to nearly complete it. Also, as TSoL said earlier, the KH of Men doesn't even appear in TWTNW until Roxas joined in 358/2 so I feel its safe to say they could not even begin their operation until the Kingdom Key appeared in Destiny Island.




This is completely baseless conjecture, we know very little about the Realm of Darkness so its impossible to say whether it would be difficult to find it in the KH universe.We've seen how big the Realm of Light is, so that gives us a good sense of how big a realm is in the KH universe. Sora has actually went to the Realm of Darkness several times and saw nothing but completely blacknessThis is assuming the Realm of Darkness works like the Realm of Light...





Considering the biggest hurdle for all the villains in the series is actually getting into the Realm of DarknessDark Corridors... Which is why they should not have wasted their time gathering Princess' and Hearts when they could just travel to KH. I mean, Mickey found Kingdom Key D in the Realm of Darkness and in very little time, why not find KH in the span of 10 years? :roll2




No, I said the End of the World is. I did not say anything about the DTD being a place. Please stop putting words into my mouth.Doesn't even matter. You're not in EoTW anymore by the final series of battles, and neither is the DTD.Then enlighten us all on where you were and where the DTD appeared. Please use in-game and source material references to tell us how you came to this conclusion as well. :p





The door that appears before the Xemnas fight is never called the DTD nor does it even resemble the DTD from KH1. It is only said to lead to KH, not the Realm of Darkness where KH lies, which in context of the scene would most likely refer to the moon in the sky. So yeah... the true DTD did only appear in one place.Fine, it isn't the DTD. But to say that the DTD can only be opened in that one place, by that one method, is still taking a shot in the dark.Until the official one appears again we won't know for sure.



The KH made from the Hearts of Men is obviously right above the Headquarters of ORG. XIII its obviously only a dozen yards away if you watch the scene carefully.Guess what's also a few dozen yards away? That's right, the Realm of Darkness, where KH is standing in, like the game says.No it isn't. Seeing as how the final battle with Xemnas starts with his Nobody Dragon Fortress breaking free a mile away from where KHoM was. Seeing as how Xemnas never went to the Dark Realm, he couldn't possible have attacked you from there. :rolleyes2

The only official border between the In-Between Worlds and Realm of Darkness is the Dark Coastline. Not that and just a few yards above CTNW. Xemnas formed his KH in TWTNW. We don't even see such a place like the Dark Coastline near The Castle That Never Was or the Dark City. Sora and Riku have to travel through a Dark Corridor to reach it. This tells me its farther away than we think.




Since The World That Never Was is not actually in the Realm of Darkness and since we never witness Xemnas summoning KH to TWTNW it seems pretty certain that the KH of Men exists in TWTNW.We see that Xemnas was in TWTNW when he was fusing with KH, and we know that he didn't go to the Realm of Darkness...so yeah, he made KH come to him.But we never see this, you are just assuming he did. He could have easily just made KH in his own world and merged with its broken remains... Which is what 99% of the KH community believes. I have never once seen a reference or interpretation from any source that says what you think happen as being true.




Which took them a little over a year to doWhich they've been working on since BBS...By waiting for another Keyblade Master that took 10 years...




Besides, you once again miss the context of my point which is that the KH of Worlds that resides in the Realm of Darkness can not be reached from the Realm of Light or World In-Between without the DTD.Again, what point? Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness anyways in order to get KH to fuse with him.He didn't bring it to himself either. He just merged with his broken one in TWTNW.




No, you just don't pay attention...No, you're just a liar when you said "Nomura said KH isn't in the Realm of Darkness."You misinterpreted what I meant, I was talking about KH of Men is not in the Realm of Darkness, excuse me forgetting to differentiate my KHoM from KHoW.




My whole argument you've been ignoring is that TWTNW is a separate world that is not part of the Realm of Darkness so how can anyone in TWTNW affect thing in the Realm of Darkness. Its like looking across the border and saying you can affect what goes on over their with the power of your mind. It seems you're the one that's not paying attention. He can affect things that aren't in the same realm as him. After all, he was in TWTNW (Realm of In-Between) the entire time whenever he re-directed a heart of a Heartless killied by Roxas or Sora in the Realm of Light. Hell, even Maleficent managed to drag Sora into the Realm of Darkness after she herself Dark Corridor'd away to the Realm of Darkness. If Xemnas can re-direct hearts in the Realm of Light while he's in TWNTW, who the hell says he can't affect hearts when they go into the Realm of Darkness, which is also a separate realm from what he's in.We don't even know how he does this, for all we know he has a machine that is doing this or even The Castle That Never Was could be the antenna that attracts the Heartless. You are assuming this is caused by his power when there are other likely scenarios. Til you can give in-game proof he's directly controlling gathering of the Hearts with only his power, your argument is still on really shaky ground.


Seriously, at this point, I can tell that you have no idea what you're talking about.Oh the irony...



which means I'm not lying. The part you lied about was "Nomura said that KH is not in the Realm of Darkness."KH of Man isn't in the Realm of Darkness, how do I know?
Kingdom Hearts II Tetsuya Nomura interview - Video Games Blogger (http://www.videogamesblogger.com/2006/08/11/kingdom-hearts-ii-tetsuya-nomura-interview.htm)

I'll skip to the important part...


For example, the heart-shaped moon in the previous game’s key visual showed up this time as the Kingdom Hearts. Did you think of doing this right from the start?
No, I didn’t. I asked Nojima-san (Nojima Kazushige) to write KHII’s scenario and in his scenario it was written that the Kingdom Hearts Xemnas created is “like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” When I read that, I thought “Oh, this can be connected!” (laugh) so I made it to look like the moon in the previous game’s key visual. The World that Never Was has the “Dark City” right from the beginning of the game’s development and since then its background is night. That’s why when Nojima-san wrote that Xemnas was creating Kingdom Hearts in the sky, coincidentally he wrote “it looks like a moon” but I thought it got connected by destiny. ~Tetsuya Nomura (Creator of Kingdom Hearts series)Let me make this even more clear:
“like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” You can't beat evidence from both the creator and the scenario writer (the hack he is). As for Saix's speech, he only says Hearts gather in Darkness he never said the Dark Realm. Worlds can still have the property of darkness despite being neutral or light as evident by the countless hearts falling from the broken KHoM that become Heartless when they touch the floor of TWTNW.

Since KHoM is in TWTNW, it is highly unlikely that Xemnas has the power to summon KHoW from the Dark Realm cause once agin, if he had that power, why bother with Org XIII? Especially since we don't have any proof it was his power alone that summoned the Hearts to his world.




We'll start talking when you start backing up your claims. Once again no, refernce of summoning or anything, he ask his KH to give him power and disappears into his KH.His KH of men was ruined by Ansem's machine. So what other KH did he absorb? The non-ruined one, the KH of worlds, that's in the Realm of Darkness. But since he didn't actually go to the Realm of Darkness, and since he and Sora's gang were in TWTNW the whole time, yeah.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, he could absorb his broken one. He might not be a god but it could be more than enough to beat a bunch of kids with Keyblades and a talking rat, dog, and duck. Especially since his KHoM disappears after his first defeat from the party which is a pretty good hint to what really happened.




the KH they visit is exclusively in TWTNW and is separate from the KH of KH1 which is located in the Realm of Darkness.But it isn't. Even Saix said that the hearts that Org13 collected were gathering in darkness, and then said that those hearts combine together to form the KH of men.Yeah, Darkness, not Realm of Darkness, not that the End of the World, Hollow Bastion, and TWTNW don't count as worlds that have a powerful influence of Darkness. His comment is so vague, we could easily interpret it meaning that hearts will go to other Heartless since they are also Darkness. This one very vague line is pretty lousy proof of anything.




Until you start backing up your claims, its obvious that Xemnas never came in contact with the KH of the Realm of Darkness.
How ironic, considering you're the one going "Look! KH is so close to TWNTW, it must be in TWTNW!"Nomura and Nojima agree with me. ;)


Seriously, you could also see Destiny Islands from Traverse Town and Yen Sid's tower is a train ride away from Twilight Town, but they're all still separate from each other.Um... no. Traverse Town is a completely different world from Destiny Island and not anywhere close to it. Otherwise, Sora would recognize it a little. Traverse Town, like EoTW, is a place created from remains of destroyed worlds by the heartless and where survivors of the Heartless invasion wind up when there worlds are destroyed as Secret Ansem Report 11 clearly states (http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Ansem_Reports). If you are mistaking the town Kairi and Selphie are seen in from KH2, its just the coastal town next to Destiny Island. They are not two different worlds, its the town all the kids on DI actually live in.



Yeah it is, you could spit on it since its on top of the castle, which is in an In-Between World, which is not located in the Realm of Darkness, which is where the Heart of Worlds version of KH exists. Which Xemnas never summons to him with the KH of Men that you say isn't right in front of him since Xemnas is in an In-Between World and never visited the World of Darkness...The only part of this entire mess that's right is that TWNTW isn't in the Realm of Darkness. We know that the KH of worlds is in the Realm of Darkness, and Saix also said that Xemnas was weaving together the hearts that they collected, that happen to be in the Realm of Darkness. No, he actually says they do it themselves. He never said Xemnas was responsible.

"Pitiful Heartless mindlessly collecting hearts, and yet they know not the true power of what they hold. The rage of the Keyblade releases those hearts, they gather in darkness, masterless and free...until they weave together to make...Kingdom Hearts!" ~ Saix





Which XH thought was all the power since he didn't believe in the light and he knows the hearts are power. They both wanted the same thing. The Director's Report even confirms this.You were wrong about "what Nomura said" so I want to see the actual part that you're reading.I wasn't wrong, my grammar was off and even then I'm right about KHoM. :p As for XH and Xemnas...


X - KH's Ansem (Xehanort) seems to have thoroughly gotten rid of his own heart, but Xemnas (Xehanort) commanding Organization XIII is seeking a fresh heart. If I understand that in becoming a heartless and a nobody, they became 2 different people, would their minds then as well become separate? Also, the original Xehanort should have some memory loss but in the additional scenes this time there seem to be some questionable parts. Have his memories returned, or perhaps the memory loss itself was a lie?


In essence, the two are the same. However, they function under separate minds. Xehanort most certainly got rid of his heart, and at that time it's assumed a Nobody was born. The means of obtaining their goal is different due to the nature of Heartless and Nobodies. However. I think for both of them the desire "to become a complete existence" is the same. This time the new mysterious keyword "Xehanort's memories" is left behind. In the "Secret Ansem Report" that Ansem the Wise wrote and mysteriously left behind, there is a hidden secret that will have a big influence on KH. As for the contents of his memories and the present condition of them, I cannot reveal that just yet.

Xemnas wanted to rebuild the world as god, XH wanted to flood the world of Darkness and rule it as a god... Not much difference in my opinion. Their underlying motives are different but their goals achieve very similar ends.





Um no... he absorbed the remains of his broken KH he never said anything about absorbing the KH of Worlds nor do we even see this happen. The whole scene pretty much points to him absorbing his own KH of Men.Remains? He used the words "I'll have to start [collecting hearts] all over again." If that doesn't say "totally destroyed..."Once again, its not enough power to achieve his goal, it doesn't mean its was useless. KHoM is still swirling with power as he makes this declaration. His plans are ruined but it doesn't mean KHoM was useless for something else.




He's sitting their pleading with his KH talking about how he'll rebuild it. Refer to: "because it was totally destroyed."Only enough to screw over his goal of world domination. The thing still has some juice: watch swirling power emanating from the KHoM in the videos I unlinked. When he asks for help, both him and the KHoM are being enveloped together with power coming from KHoM. His whole dialogue is him pleading with the KHoM to give him power in exchange for him giving it more hearts.

"It seems we will have to start anew, ah, but know this: I will give you as many hearts as it takes."

"Lend me your power so we can be complete. The power to erase the fools that hinder us"

The last line is interesting to note cause how is Sora and Co. a hindrance to KHoW? Obviously he is talking to the broken KHoM which was hindered by Ansem and Co.



He never mentions going to the Heart of Worlds and absorbing it. You are just misinterpreting the whole scene.He never directly says "I'm absorbing the KH of men" either, in this case. Seriously, the whole "it is never said" stuff that you're doing is totally weak.His entire dialogue with KH is directed right at KHoM which he is facing. KHoM disappears after he is defeated by Sora and Co. the first time. How more obvious do you need to be to say he absorbed KHoM?



When your party defeats Xemnas in his own KH, he talks about how he needs more hearts...because he needed hearts for his KH of men, that was destroyed.Which would be completely retarded to say if he actually absorbed KHoW cause he would technically have the power that is the foundation of the universe of KH. You would think he wouldn't need KHoM at that point.




I would think that if he absorbed two KH, he wouldn't need more hearts (he probably should have won if he was that powered up).He didn't absorb both KHs. One was destroyed by Ansem, so there was only one left by process of elimination.


Yes, they can use the Corridors of Darkness, but you are saying Xemnas can manipulate KH from outside of the Realm of Darkness where you say both KH lie.He was able to manipulate the Hearts that Roxas and Sora gathered from the Realm of Light while he was in TWTNW, outside the Realm of Light. What exactly is the problem?Because it defeats the entire purpose of making KHoM...





The World That Never Was, has a barrier and it was only accessible by way of COD. Once again you are saying Xemnas can manipulate objects outside his realm of influence despite a barrier existing to prevent this kind of stuff from happening.Yeah, because we know that he was able to manipulate hearts in the Realm of Light while he was in TWTNW the entire time, and we saw him do so. Once again, Dark Corridors say "**** you" to the barriers.
[/QUOTE]

Except we don't know if it was all him or some other means...

Besides, he couldn't use the Dark Corridors to gather the Hearts since those passage ways can corrupt Hearts. They should all be turning into Heartless due to the corruptible nature of the CoD. We don't even know how Hearts travel when they are free from a Heartless. For all we know, they travel through another path unique to them to return to their original body.

[PuPu]

Yet, Sora was physically taken there seeing as how everyone was looking for him

It doesn't mean it's a place. When Roxas appeared in TWNTW, and Sora "disappeared" he didn't go to another place, he just went into his own mind. Same thing here.


KH is never said not to be a world either and we don't know enough about KH since the player never actually interacts with it to say how the rules apply to it.

This has got to be the weakest garbage that you've pulled in this entire debate. KH is never said to not to be either, so you really don't get anywhere by saying this. Because we are told what KH IS, we are told at the same time everything that it is NOT.

Seriously, I can't believe you're saying that KH is a world by using "well nothing says I'm wrong." It's just too bad that if you've got nothing to say that you're right either.


Besides, a world itself is a collection of hearts at its most basic level...

Not even close.


Xemnas: Oh its ruined... Now I can't be a god... guess I'll settle for Demi-god and start again from there.

What a completely made up and baseless line that's only supported by your own, unsupported claims.


Just because its ruined doesn't mean it can't have a use or be salvaged for other goals. It just means he can't use it for its original intention.

ru·in
[!]BOF_HEAD[/!]
[!]EOF_HEAD[/!][!]BOF_DEF[/!]

Total destruction or disintegration, either physical, moral, social, or economic.
A cause of total destruction.


The act of destroying totally.


From dictionary.com

Seriously, the "totally" part of destroyed is almost always included in the definition of "ruined."


What's to say Xemnas only redirected them to him in TWTNW? Hearts gather in Darkness yes, but that doesn't mean they specifically go to the Realm of Darkness

TWNTW = In-between, thus it =/= "Darkness"
Realm of Darkness = Darkness

Seriously, your arguments are getting weaker and weaker as I go down.


and if they did, Xemnas could easily just stop them from passing into the realm. If he's calling the hearts to him, why let them travel to the Realm of Darkness in the first place?

"Why?" doesn't really matter because you still have got nothing that says he pulled the hearts to TWTNW.


He could just as easily trap them at the border and make them into his own Artificial Kingdom Hearts in TWTNW. Oh wait... he did.

He could but, oh wait...you've got nothing that says he did.


Besides, if Xemnas could pull KH of worlds from the Realm of Darkness, why bother making the KH of Men now?

Because he used the KH of men to do so.


He could have easily turned himself into a near god by bringing KH of Worlds to him, release the Heartless into the Realm of Light, absorb all the hearts that the Keyblade wielders set free if not even being strong enough to reduce everything to heart if its within his power and gone on with his plan of remaking the universe.

Your hypothetical is meaningless when compared to what actually happened.


Your "theory" on the end game events do not any make sense from this perspective. If he had the power to do it himself, why bother going through the whole business of making an artificial KH? He could have absorbed KH ten years ago and be god by now.

He needed to KH of men to get to get the KH of worlds, because it's an alternate way from using the DTD.


Its treated as a World in KH1

No it isn't. Tell me, what is it called then?


if Yen Sid's castle can be world and Winnie the Pooh's book can be a world

Yen Sid's castle was said to be a world by the DSR, and 100 Acre Wood is a world because it has a Keyhole.


who is to say this isn't?


Because there's nothing that says it IS.


Its obvious the term "World" in KH is ill defined.

No it isn't. Even if it was, it doesn't give you the right to call whatever you want as a world.


Bringing it to him is also ridiculous and implausible. It never happened.

KH is in the Realm of Darkness as said by the game. Xemnas never went to the Realm of Darkness. Therefore, KH went to him. Just because you don't like HOW it happened doesn't mean that it DIDN'T happen.


We don't know enough about KH to say this is true.

This is basically 70% of your entire argument right here, and I can easily just say the same thing for almost everything you've said. Neither of us get anywhere by saying this.


Except there is no proof...


Except that the game says KH is in the Realm of Darkness, and since Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness, there's only one choice left.


He never summons the KH of Worlds though, he becomes one with his "ruined" KH and gets his ass kicked.

He becomes one with a "completely destroyed" KH?


We actually don't know if KH is a world or not, its not defined as a world but its barely defined at all except for being a collection of hearts.

It's not "barely defined" just because it doesn't fit your definition. That's like saying "KH isn't defined as a Heartless, so therefore it might be a Heartless." By telling us what it is, at the same time, we are told everything that it is ISN'T.


We barely know anything about it to make proclamations like "its not a world". No one in the story has been to the true KH so we don't know what KH is actually like. We only have to go on Ansem and Xehnort's research as well as what King Mickey has said.

Your entire argument of KH being a world is now basically reduced to a hypothetical, a possibility, based only on "well nothing says I'm wrong!"


Oh the irony...

What? Just because you're ignorant on the series and each installment doesn't mean that you're right.


Oh yeah... Mickey's been fighting them Heartless for the last ten years. Seeing as he didn't realize they were invading the Realm of Light until the start of KH1.

For smurf's sake, Mickey knew the Heartless were invading since BBS. Hell, the Ansem Reports of KH1 even mention him talking about the worlds being consumed by darkness with Xehanort.


You are assuming there were others. Yes, we get 6 more (for now) in BBS but they are not fighting Heartless and no one knows if they got a fairy tale ending in BBS.

I'm assuming there are others because we only see a few thousand keyblades when TAV fight MX and Vanitas. Obviously, tons of keyblades exist, it's not unreasonable to think that there can also be tons of Keyblade wielders too.


Even if there were more Keyblade wielders than we are aware of, the situations in KH1 and 2 are extreme enough you would think they would have made themselves known.

Mickey didn't make himself known. Nobody in KH1 knew he wielded a Keyblade.


If they were unaware, they stayed in their own worlds and thus had a much more limited contribution to Xemnas' plan.

It doesn't matter where you kill Heartless, just that you kill Heartless.


It still stands that Roxas and Sora were imperative to their plan and the reason they were able to nearly complete it. Also, as TSoL said earlier, the KH of Men doesn't even appear in TWTNW until Roxas joined in 358/2 so I feel its safe to say they could not even begin their operation until the Kingdom Key appeared in Destiny Island.

The only thing that proves is that he didn't begin to combine the hearts, not that there weren't any hearts.


This is assuming the Realm of Darkness works like the Realm of Light...

At least I have the Realm of Light to base what I believe. Yours is just "well we don't know, so therefore we can assume it's done the way I say without any proof needed at all."


Which is why they should not have wasted their time gathering Princess' and Hearts when they could just travel to KH.


Because they can't Dark Corridor themselves directly to KH, because they don't know where it is. That's why Maleficent said that the Princesses will reveal its location.


I mean, Mickey found Kingdom Key D in the Realm of Darkness and in very little time, why not find KH in the span of 10 years?

How does this even matter? It took Mickey the same amount of time as it took the villains of KH1.


Then enlighten us all on where you were and where the DTD appeared.

Well, you know that you were very close to the Realm of Darkness, but not actually in the Realm of Darkness. That's it.


Please use in-game and source material references to tell us how you came to this conclusion as well.

You can't even provide stuff that says that Sora was still in EotW.


No it isn't.


Remember how the chart on the DSR had TWNTW listed as the closest to Darkness? Yeah...


Seeing as how the final battle with Xemnas starts with his Nobody Dragon Fortress breaking free a mile away from where KHoM was.

The difference is that it has been stated many times that KH is indeed in the Realm of Darkness, whereas Dragon has nothing stated about it. But since we're going with "we never went to the Realm of Darkness" there's only one possibility left, that Dragon was in TWTNW.


The only [I]official border between the In-Between Worlds and Realm of Darkness is the Dark Coastline. Not that and just a few yards above CTNW. Xemnas formed his KH in TWTNW. We don't even see such a place like the Dark Coastline near The Castle That Never Was or the Dark City

No it isn't. The Dark Coastline is ON the border, but not the entire border. The DSR also says TWNTW is on the edge of Darkness as well.


Sora and Riku have to travel through a Dark Corridor to reach it. This tells me its farther away than we think.

Because they went there from the Realm of Nothing, and that's...an entirely different realm.


But we never see this, you are just assuming he did.

What the hell? One of the videos you showed me did indeed show Xemnas being in TWTNW, right in front of KH.


He could have easily just made KH in his own world and merged with its broken remains... Which is what 99% of the KH community believes.

Merging with something "completely destroyed?"

Also, lol at the fake statistic.


I have never once seen a reference or interpretation from any source that says what you think happen as being true.

Let's see:
The game says KH is in the Realm of Darkness.
Saix said the KH of Men was forming in the Realm of Darkness.
Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness, yet still got KH while he was in TWTNW.


By waiting for another Keyblade Master that took 10 years...

Dude, we see Mickey in BBS with a Keyblade.



He didn't bring it to himself either. He just merged with his broken one in TWTNW.

"Merging with something 'completely destroyed'"


We don't even know how he does this, for all we know he has a machine that is doing this or even The Castle That Never Was could be the antenna that attracts the Heartless. You are assuming this is caused by his power when there are other likely scenarios.

But you're not denying that he DID do it. And no matter HOW he did it, all that matters is that it DID happen, meaning he can indeed affect hearts across different realms. Whether by his own power or something else doesn't matter. But it isn't hard to believe that it was his own power, what with that one scene in KH2 showing him actually clustering the Hearts and the fact that Nomura says Xemnas is the most powerful person in KH so far (even before he absorbed KH).


Til you can give in-game proof he's directly gathering the Hearts your argument is still on really shaky ground.

It really isn't shaky at all, since your entire argument against it is "the game doesn't directly tell you that you're right."


Oh the irony...

I'm not the one who's making most of my entire argument off of "well nothing says I'm wrong" and "well you weren't directly told to be right."


“like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” You can't beat evidence from both the creator and the scenario writer (the hack he is).

Hey, I can easily do what you're doing too.

"like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was."

"Like" as in, similar to, but not exactly . Destiny Islands is "like" a star that floats above Traverse Town. Yen Sid's Tower is "like" a train ride away from Twilight Town. The reality is though, DI and Traverse Town are separate, and so is YST and Twilight Town. And so is KH and TWNTW.


As for Saix's speech, he only says Hearts gather in Darkness he never said the Dark Realm.

He sure doesn't mean "TWTNW" when he says darkness. But again, you'd have to be pretty close minded to think that Darkness =/= Realm of Darkness.


Worlds can still have the property of darkness despite being neutral or light as evident by the countless hearts falling from the broken KHoM that become Heartless when they touch the floor of TWTNW.

The hearts didn't become Heartless. The hearts were re-stolen by the Heartless. And some of them didn't get stolen by Heartless because tons of Dusks also re-collected the hearts.


Since KHoM is in TWTNW, it is highly unlikely that Xemnas has the power to summon KHoW from the Dark Realm cause once agin, if he had that power, why bother with Org XIII?


Because he used OrgXIII to create the KH of Men, which he used to summon the KH of Worlds.


Especially since we don't have any proof it was his power alone that summoned the Hearts to his world.

After all other Org members were dead, after Ansem blew up his KH of Men, he told Sora and gang to get more hearts for him. Had they actually did go collect more hearts for him, he implied that he could still use the hearts that they could've collected, when the rest of the Org was dead.

You're getting nowhere with this "no proof" stuff.


Yeah, he could absorb his broken one. He might not be a god but it could be more than enough to beat a bunch of kids with Keyblades and a talking rat, dog, and duck.

Absorb something that he said was "completely destroyed?" Wat.


Especially since his KHoM disappears after his first defeat from the party which is a pretty good hint to what really happened.

The KHoM was completely destroyed by Ansem, though. As said by Xemnas himself. That was the KHoW that disappeared.


Yeah, Darkness, not Realm of Darkness, not that the End of the World, Hollow Bastion, and TWTNW don't count as worlds that have a powerful influence of Darkness.

TWTNW isn't darkness. The Realm of Darkness is Darkness.


Yeah, Darkness, not Realm of Darkness, not that the End of the World, Hollow Bastion, and TWTNW don't count as worlds that have a powerful influence of Darkness. His comment is so vague, we could easily interpret it meaning that hearts will go to other Heartless since they are also Darkness.

Everything you mentioned except TWTNW can be easily crossed off, since we know and see that the answers aren't even remotely close to everything else, based on what we see in the game. So you're left with:

Some in-between world = Darkness
and
The Realm of Darkness = Darkness

Yeah, kinda easy to tell who's got the better one here. Even if what I say isn't 100% certain, it's still undoubtedly better than yours.


This one very vague line is pretty lousy proof of anything.

Only if you don't bother paying attention to what actually happens in the game and the rest of what he says. Just because something isn't directly said about something, does not make it lousy.


Nomura and Nojima agree with me.

Not really. "Like" =/= total agreement.


Um... no. Traverse Town is a completely different world from Destiny Island and not anywhere close to it.

The point is, you're saying that you can see KH from TWNTW as a moon, but you can also see DI as star from TT. Yet DI and TT are separate, so is KH and TWTNW. I'm talking about when Donald says "Look! A star/DI went out!" What you thought wasn't even close.


No, he actually says they do it themselves. He never said Xemnas was responsible.

I can say that thread weaves together to form clothing, but that doesn't mean that it does it by itself. Xemnas being responsible is painfully obvious with that one scene where you see him clustering the hearts together.


Xemnas wanted to rebuild the world as god, XH wanted to flood the world of Darkness and rule it as a god... Not much difference in my opinion. Their underlying motives are different but their goals achieve very similar ends.

Yeah, I know they both wanted to become very powerful. Xemnas wanted KH, XH wanted Darkness of KH.


Once again, its not enough power to [I]achieve his goal, it doesn't mean its was useless.

"Something completely destroyed isn't useless at all!"


KHoM is still swirling with power as he makes this declaration. His plans are ruined but it doesn't mean KHoM was useless for something else.

KHoW is swirling with power, KHoM was completely destroyed and useless.


Only enough to screw over his goal of world domination. The thing still has some juice
"I don't know what completely destroyed means!"


watch swirling power emanating from the KHoM in the videos I unlinked. When he asks for help, both him and the KHoM are being enveloped together with power coming from KHoM. His whole dialogue is him pleading with the KHoM to give him power in exchange for him giving it more hearts.

Sorry, but KHoM was completely destroyed. But if you replace every KHoM with KHoW, you've got a true statement. ;)


The last line is interesting to note cause how is Sora and Co. a hindrance to KHoW? Obviously he is talking to the broken KHoM which was hindered by Ansem and Co.

"Hinder us" means that Sora and gang were going to kill Xemnas so that he couldn't merge, not that they were going to destroy KHoW. How can you not get something that simple?


His entire dialogue with KH is directed right at KHoM which he is facing. KHoM disappears after he is defeated by Sora and Co. the first time. How more obvious do you need to be to say he absorbed KHoM?

The KHoM was completely destroyed by Ansem. Xemnas even admitted that the KHoM was completely destroyed. How more obvious do you need to be to say that KHoM was gone?


Which would be completely retarded to say if he actually absorbed KHoW cause he would technically have the power that is the foundation of the universe of KH. You would think he wouldn't need KHoM at that point.


But there's 2 KH's. How is it retarded to want all and not just half? Just cause you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong.


Because it defeats the entire purpose of making KHoM...

The purpose of KHoM was to get KHoW, which he managed to do; Ansem was too late.


Except we don't know if it was all him or some other means...

At this point, I shouldn't even bother acknowledging these as a legitimate argument.


Besides, he couldn't use the Dark Corridors to gather the Hearts since those passage ways can corrupt Hearts. They should all be turning into Heartless due to the corruptible nature of the CoD.

You missed the part where they corrupt hearts after "extended use."


We don't even know how Hearts travel when they are free from a Heartless.

We see the the hearts disappear during that scene with Saix in Hollow Bastion. The only person who doesn't seem to know anything is you.


For all we know, they travel through another path unique to them to return to their original body.

...but they weren't. Because Xemnas was controlling the path of the hearts.

[Wolf Kanno]

Oh lord, where to begin...




Yet, Sora was physically taken there seeing as how everyone was looking for himIt doesn't mean it's a place. When Roxas appeared in TWNTW, and Sora "disappeared" he didn't go to another place, he just went into his own mind. Same thing here.

So being physically transported to an area you can interact in doesn't constitute as a place (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Place). Donald and Goofy even say he vanished. When Xemnas took Sora to the Other Memory Skyscraper, Sora still physically vanished.


This has got to be the weakest garbage that you've pulled in this entire debate. KH is never said to not to be either, so you really don't get anywhere by saying this. Because we are told what KH IS, we are told at the same time everything that it is NOT. Heart of Worlds, where hearts gather, Proof of Life... oh yeah these define KH so well and tells us everything it can and can't be.


Seriously, I can't believe you're saying that KH is a world by using "well nothing says I'm wrong." It's just too bad that if you've got nothing to say that you're right either.Funny, I can say the same thing about your argument.


What a completely made up and baseless line that's only supported by your own, unsupported claims.Like your baseless claim is any better? Mine explains what happened to KHoM after Xemnas is defeated, Xemnas' dialogue supports my idea since he is speaking to KHoM directly in a manner that only suits the context of the situation for KHoM, and why we never see Xemnas summon KHoW. You say he magically did all this cause KH could only be in the Realm of Darkness.


[QUOTE]
Just because its ruined doesn't mean it can't have a use or be salvaged for other goals. It just means he can't use it for its original intention.ru·in



Total destruction or disintegration, either physical, moral, social, or economic.
A cause of total destruction.


The act of destroying totally.



From dictionary.com

Seriously, the "totally" part of destroyed is almost always included in the definition of "ruined."This is one of my favorite parts...

Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Ruin)

ru⋅in

–noun 1. ruins, the remains of a building, city, etc., that has been destroyed or that is in disrepair or a state of decay: We visited the ruins of ancient Greece. 2. a destroyed or decayed building, town, etc. 3. a fallen, wrecked, or decayed condition: The building fell to ruin. 4. the downfall, decay, or destruction of anything. 5. the complete loss of health, means, position, hope, or the like.








Notice this is the first set of definitions as opposed to the the third you chose. Notice how your set of definitions are a bit different from the rest. I love how you completely ignore the other definitions and only mention the one that supports your theory and treat it like its the only true definition for the word. :p

The other problem with your argument is that a person can say they "ruined a cake" but that does not mean the cake is "completely destroyed". Its still there and it can still be eaten, its just not going to taste very good if at all. We actually see the remains of KHoM so its far from "completely destroyed" since it should have been wiped from existence had it truly been. Yet there it is at the Altar of Naught...




What's to say Xemnas only redirected them to him in TWTNW? Hearts gather in Darkness yes, but that doesn't mean they specifically go to the Realm of DarknessTWNTW = In-between, thus it =/= "Darkness"
Realm of Darkness = DarknessBut Darkness exists in the Realm of light as well. Hollow Bastion was plunged into Darkness by Xehanort and the End of the World (which is not an official In-Between world) also appears to be a heavily influenced by darkness. Besides, you ignore my first statement which is whether Xemnas gathered them to him. If Hearts return to Darkness and from Nomura has said about the Worlds In Between, would that not suggest Hearts would have to travel through TWTNW even if through a Dark Corridor?

If he's strong enough or has the means to gather them, whose to say he needs to have KH in the Realm of Darkness. We only assume cause KHoW is in the Realm of Darkness and Saix said hearts return to darkness.




and if they did, Xemnas could easily just stop them from passing into the realm. If he's calling the hearts to him, why let them travel to the Realm of Darkness in the first place?"Why?" doesn't really matter because you still have got nothing that says he pulled the hearts to TWTNW.Just like you have really nothing on him pulling KHoW from the Realm of Darkness.




Besides, if Xemnas could pull KH of worlds from the Realm of Darkness, why bother making the KH of Men now?Because he used the KH of men to do so.Wait a minute... now you are just going into circular reasoning at this point. He can't use KHoM cause by your words its "completely destroyed" but he can use its power (which you say is "completely destroyed") to summon KHoW to him?




He could have easily turned himself into a near god by bringing KH of Worlds to him, release the Heartless into the Realm of Light, absorb all the hearts that the Keyblade wielders set free if not even being strong enough to reduce everything to heart if its within his power and gone on with his plan of remaking the universe.Your hypothetical is meaningless when compared to what actually happened.Except you have no evidence to say he couldn't do it before but then you say he needed KHoM to summon it, yet you say it was "completely destroyed" by Ansem which by your definition means he couldn't use it. Am I the only one who sees the paradox of your reasoning?




Your "theory" on the end game events do not any make sense from this perspective. If he had the power to do it himself, why bother going through the whole business of making an artificial KH? He could have absorbed KH ten years ago and be god by now.He needed to KH of men to get to get the KH of worlds, because it's an alternate way from using the DTD.Except its supposedly "completely destroyed" and yet he still summons KHoW with it...





Its treated as a World in KH1No it isn't. Tell me, what is it called then?How is it not a world? Traverse Town has the same origins as the End of the World and its a World so why can End of the World not be?





who is to say this isn't?
Because there's nothing that says it IS.Which is the same baseless argument I'm making in reverse...





Its obvious the term "World" in KH is ill defined. No it isn't. Even if it was, it doesn't give you the right to call whatever you want as a world.Its true I don't have a right, but neither do you have the right to say what is a world and what is not. Especially when the worlds in question exist in a gray area.



Bringing it to him is also ridiculous and implausible. It never happened.KH is in the Realm of Darkness as said by the game. Xemnas never went to the Realm of Darkness. Therefore, KH went to him. Just because you don't like HOW it happened doesn't mean that it DIDN'T happen.But we never see it come to him, we only see him merge with KHoM. We never even get to see KHoW so how do we know he merged with it?





Except there is no proof...
Except that the game says KH is in the Realm of Darkness, and since Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness, there's only one choice left.Or you can accept that "Ruin" doesn't absolutely mean "complete destruction" thus Xemnas absorbed a broken KHoM which would explain how he lost. :roll2




He never summons the KH of Worlds though, he becomes one with his "ruined" KH and gets his ass kicked. He becomes one with a "completely destroyed" KH? Yeah, cause ruin doesn't always mean "completely destroyed". Course I guess he needs that "completely destroyed" KHoM to summon KHoW to him ;)




We actually don't know if KH is a world or not, its not defined as a world but its barely defined at all except for being a collection of hearts.It's not "barely defined" just because it doesn't fit your definition. That's like saying "KH isn't defined as a Heartless, so therefore it might be a Heartless." By telling us what it is, at the same time, we are told everything that it is ISN'T. Once again, "Heart of All Worlds" and "Proof of Life" do not offer any information on what KH could physically be like. The first definition works to say what it is, but what about the second? Worlds are hardly dead or not-life since they too have Hearts.





We barely know anything about it to make proclamations like "its not a world". No one in the story has been to the true KH so we don't know what KH is actually like. We only have to go on Ansem and Xehnort's research as well as what King Mickey has said.Your entire argument of KH being a world is now basically reduced to a hypothetical, a possibility, based only on "well nothing says I'm wrong!"And your is basically, "they never said it was". Even though such information might not be important at this time in the series. So why bother mentioning it.





Oh yeah... Mickey's been fighting them Heartless for the last ten years. Seeing as he didn't realize they were invading the Realm of Light until the start of KH1.For smurf's sake, Mickey knew the Heartless were invading since BBS. Hell, the Ansem Reports of KH1 even mention him talking about the worlds being consumed by darkness with Xehanort.No, the Ansem Reports only say that Mickey visited and told Ansem about the Keyblade and made him aware of the Gummi Blocks. (Ansem Report 9 and Secret Ansem Report 2).

We don't even know if the Heartless first appear in BBS or if anyone was aware of their danger at that time. Even Ansem the Wise was not aware of how bad things had gotten until he read the Secret Ansem reports.

They spoke about the stability of the world and worried about the Heartless but Mickey says he only noticed worlds were disappearing in his letter to Donald and Goofy, which seems to have been given to them at the start of KH1, nearly ten years later. We don't know what Mickey has been doing in this ten year period. We know he trained with Yen Sid and may have got caught up in the events of BBS, we know he met with Ansem the Wise sometime around this time. We know he hasn't been gone for very long from Disney Castle when KH1 began.

If Mickey did not travel extensively in this time frame, he would have had little contact with the Heartless, especially since the Pillar of Light protects Disney Castle from the Heartless.

Mickey's absence in KH1 was said by Nomura in the Secret Director's Report to take place mostly in the Realm of Darkness. If was wiping out Heartless, it would stand to reason they would go to KHoW rather than KHoM or just be turned back into Heartless.




You are assuming there were others. Yes, we get 6 more (for now) in BBS but they are not fighting Heartless and no one knows if they got a fairy tale ending in BBS.I'm assuming there are others because we only see a few thousand keyblades when TAV fight MX and Vanitas. Obviously, tons of keyblades exist, it's not unreasonable to think that there can also be tons of Keyblade wielders too.Yes, but its unreasonable to think they would not be aware of the events going on in KH1 and 2. Especially since the Heartless are attracted to the Keyblades. They are either hiding their Keyblades to protect themselves from the Heartless of Nobodies or are quite possible killed. Had others existed, I cannot see why Org XIII wouldn't be utilizing them like they did Roxas and Sora.





Even if there were more Keyblade wielders than we are aware of, the situations in KH1 and 2 are extreme enough you would think they would have made themselves known.Mickey didn't make himself known. Nobody in KH1 knew he wielded a Keyblade.Except when he reveals it in the ending with the Kingdom Key of D. ;)




If they were unaware, they stayed in their own worlds and thus had a much more limited contribution to Xemnas' plan. It doesn't matter where you kill Heartless, just that you kill Heartless.But if guys are killing Heartless, you would think Org. XIII would know about it. They found Sora after all.


It still stands that Roxas and Sora were imperative to their plan and the reason they were able to nearly complete it. Also, as TSoL said earlier, the KH of Men doesn't even appear in TWTNW until Roxas joined in 358/2 so I feel its safe to say they could not even begin their operation until the Kingdom Key appeared in Destiny Island.The only thing that proves is that he didn't begin to combine the hearts, not that there weren't any hearts.

It also could prove he didn't have enough yet to start making it. There is no evidence to suggest he waited to start forming KHoM when Roxas joined cause he felt like it. It doesn't make logical sense to wait for a dedicated member to get you hearts before you start forming your artifical Kingdom Hearts. It instead suggest they didn't have enough Hearts yet.



This is assuming the Realm of Darkness works like the Realm of Light... At least I have the Realm of Light to base what I believe. Yours is just "well we don't know, so therefore we can assume it's done the way I say without any proof needed at all."

We get two looks into the Realm of Darkness, one is a luminescent cave filled with Heartless, the other is a vast dark ocean. Its a world where KHoW resides with the Heartless and despite the Heartless' goal of consuming KH, they don't.

Even if the Realm of Darkness did work exactly like the Realm of Light, once again, what is stopping all the villains from just going to the Realm of Darkness and looking for KHoW on their own? Sora was able to explore a decent section of the Realm of Light and all of the Realm of In-Between in the span of little over a year. Who is to say that KHoW wouldn't be found in the ten year period the villains were around. Its not like they don't have manpower and are inept to do so.





Which is why they should not have wasted their time gathering Princess' and Hearts when they could just travel to KH.
Because they can't Dark Corridor themselves directly to KH, because they don't know where it is. That's why Maleficent said that the Princesses will reveal its location.I don't mean Dark Corridor directly, they should have had ample time to explore the Realm of Darkness in 10 years. By not even bothering with the Realm of Light, they could have all achieved their goals with no pesky Keyblade wielder to thwart their plans. Besides, Mickey found KHoW. He's right there when the DTD is open in the Realm of Darkness.




I mean, Mickey found Kingdom Key D in the Realm of Darkness and in very little time, why not find KH in the span of 10 years? How does this even matter? It took Mickey the same amount of time as it took the villains of KH1.Mickey doesn't have the Kingdom Key of D in BBS, we know Mickey went into the Realm of Darkness at the start of KH1 to find the key so he and Sora could seal the DTD.





Then enlighten us all on where you were and where the DTD appeared. Well, you know that you were very close to the Realm of Darkness, but not actually in the Realm of Darkness. That's it.As opposed to, we went to the End of the World, we met Ansem at the End of the World, we fought Ansem at the End of the World, and suddenly during this grand battle everyone was magically transported to a place that was not part of the End of the World without anyone knowing it wasn't part of of the End of the World, even though there is nothing to say they didn't go to another part of End of the World where the DTD happened to be? This is basically the same debate as the nature of KH. You have nothing that suggests it isn't the End of the World but say it isn't because no one says it was specifically the End of the World. Despite the first area of the EoTW is called Gate to the Dark.




Please use in-game and source material references to tell us how you came to this conclusion as well.You can't even provide stuff that says that Sora was still in EotW.I just did a better one than you. You went to EoTW, you met Ansem there and you fought him and now where does your party remark about being transported away from there. You have nothing to suggest that the last area where you battle Ansem is not at the End of the World except "well they never said it was". How come when I make that argument its baseless conjecture but when you make, it its perfectly acceptable. :p




No it isn't.
Remember how the chart on the DSR had TWNTW listed as the closest to Darkness? Yeah...Yeah... Remember how it also said the Dark Beach was the actual border between the Worlds of In-Between and and Realm of Darkness. We never see this beach anywhere near CTNW or anything close to the CTNW that could be considered an ocean. Worlds are larger than what we see you know. We only explored the Coliseum in Hercules world but in KHII we finally see Hades Realm. We only see the Castle of Hollow Bastion but in KH11 we have a town, and there is miles beyond it. I think its safe to assume we only see a part of the worlds not the whole thing. TWTNW is bordered to the Realm of Darkness, the actual dividing line is the Dark Beach. No one ever said the CTNW is near the border to the Realm of Darkness. For all we know, it could be located near the border to the World of Twilight Town.Especially considering you need to access a Dark Corridor from TT to reach the Dark City.




Seeing as how the final battle with Xemnas starts with his Nobody Dragon Fortress breaking free a mile away from where KHoM was.The difference is that it has been stated many times that KH is indeed in the Realm of Darkness, whereas Dragon has nothing stated about it. But since we're going with "we never went to the Realm of Darkness" there's only one possibility left, that Dragon was in TWTNW.Except Xemnas was on the Dragon... so he apparently did have to go into the Realm of Darkness.




The only [I]official border between the In-Between Worlds and Realm of Darkness is the Dark Coastline. Not that and just a few yards above CTNW. Xemnas formed his KH in TWTNW. We don't even see such a place like the Dark Coastline near The Castle That Never Was or the Dark CityNo it isn't. The Dark Coastline is ON the border, but not the entire border. The DSR also says TWNTW is on the edge of Darkness as well.Yes the world is, but the world could be larger than we think, the Dark Coastline being nowhere near CTNW or the Dark city suggest. Its stated that the TWTNW is on the border but it never said anything about the CTNW being located on the border or edge of Darkness. Its most likely the center of the world.




Sora and Riku have to travel through a Dark Corridor to reach it. This tells me its farther away than we think. Because they went there from the Realm of Nothing, and that's...an entirely different realm.Yeah... lets not complicate this anymore. :D





But we never see this, you are just assuming he did.What the hell? One of the videos you showed me did indeed show Xemnas being in TWTNW, right in front of KH.But you never see him summon KHoW top TWTNW. He's talking to and being enveloped by the KHoM. When did he summon KHoW to TWTNW when we never see him actually do it?



He could have easily just made KH in his own world and merged with its broken remains... Which is what 99% of the KH community believes. Merging with something "completely destroyed"?Well it must have some power if Xemnas used it to summon KHoW to him. ;)



Also, lol at the fake statistic.I've spoken to a lot of KH fans and you are the first one to come up with this scenario of how the ending happened in KHII. Fan sites or official sites never state anything about Xemnas summoning and merging with KHoW.




I have never once seen a reference or interpretation from any source that says what you think happen as being true.Let's see:
The game says KH is in the Realm of Darkness.
Saix said the KH of Men was forming in the Realm of Darkness.
Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness, yet still got KH while he was in TWTNW.Saix said Hearts form KH in Darkness when left to their own devices. I don't think that constitutes as a direct reference to KHoM was forming in the Realm of Darkness, especially since we know Org.XIII was responsible for the gathering of hearts there.

Xemnas never entered the Realm of Dark cause KHoM was in TWTNW.




By waiting for another Keyblade Master that took 10 years... Dude, we see Mickey in BBS with a Keyblade.Once again, we don't know what Mickey was doing during that whole time and once again, Xemnas doesn't bother forming KHoM until Roxas joins the Organization in 358/2





He didn't bring it to himself either. He just merged with his broken one in TWTNW. "Merging with something 'completely destroyed'"Cause ruin obviously only has one actual definition. The other definitions there don't mean anything cause they don't support my theory. :p

But at the same time, he uses this "completely destroyed KHoM" to summon KHoW.



We don't even know how he does this, for all we know he has a machine that is doing this or even The Castle That Never Was could be the antenna that attracts the Heartless. You are assuming this is caused by his power when there are other likely scenarios.But you're not denying that he DID do it. And no matter HOW he did it, all that matters is that it DID happen, meaning he can indeed affect hearts across different realms. Whether by his own power or something else doesn't matter. But it isn't hard to believe that it was his own power, what with that one scene in KH2 showing him actually clustering the Hearts and the fact that Nomura says Xemnas is the most powerful person in KH so far (even before he absorbed KH).Yet I find it hard to believe that a person with such strength could fall to Sora and the others even after supposedly summoning KHoW and absorbing its power. He even gets Riku and Sora by themselves and still loses. He may be powerful but I feel you are giving him greater credit than he actually deserves. His god mode either really sucks or he never obtained the level of power some people believe he did.



Til you can give in-game proof he's directly gathering the Hearts your argument is still on really shaky ground. It really isn't shaky at all, since your entire argument against it is "the game doesn't directly tell you that you're right."Like yours is any better. KHoW exists in the Realm of Darkness, Saix said KHoM is forming in the realm of darkness (which he never said) thus it has to be there despite Xemnas walking up to it and touching it and absorbing its "completely destroyed" power to summon the real KHoW which never actually appeared.




“like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” You can't beat evidence from both the creator and the scenario writer (the hack he is).Hey, I can easily do what you're doing too.

"like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was."

"Like" as in, similar to, but not exactly . Destiny Islands is "like" a star that floats above Traverse Town. Yen Sid's Tower is "like" a train ride away from Twilight Town. The reality is though, DI and Traverse Town are separate, and so is YST and Twilight Town. And so is KH and TWNTW.Definition of Like. Like Definition | Definition of Like at Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Like)



1. of the same form, appearance, kind, character, amount, etc.: I cannot remember a like instance.
2. corresponding or agreeing in general or in some noticeable respect; similar; analogous: drawing, painting, and like arts.
3. bearing resemblance.
4. Dialect. likely (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=likely&db=luna): 'Tis like that he's gone mad.
5. Dialect. about: The poor chap seemed like to run away.

Read the other definitions, if you want. It just defines it as bearing similarities to it but not being it, it looks "like" a moon as in resembles not that its treated like one. Nomura and Nojima said KHoM is "in" TWTNW. Just because it resembles a moon does not mean it actually positioned like a moon. Planets look like stars in the night sky without a telescope but it hardly means they are the same distance.

"In" on the other hand (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/In)...

1. (used to indicate inclusion within space, a place, or limits): walking in the park.
13. in possession or occupancy
19. located or situated within; inner; internal: the in part of a mechanism.
Within the limits, bounds, or area of: was hit in the face; born in the spring; a chair in the garden.
Within a place, as of business or residence: The manager is in before anyone else.
So as to include or incorporate: Fold in the egg whites
Located inside; inner.

So yeah, Nojima and Nomura have suggest KHoM doesn't work with the same rules as KHoW. Since we have a KH "in" a World of In-Between. It was artificially created so it does make sense that it wouldn't need to follow the same rules of a true KH.




As for Saix's speech, he only says Hearts gather in Darkness he never said the Dark Realm.He sure doesn't mean "TWTNW" when he says darkness. But again, you'd have to be pretty close minded to think that Darkness =/= Realm of Darkness.All I'm suggesting is that darkness doesn't mean Realm of Darkness exclusively.




Since KHoM is in TWTNW, it is highly unlikely that Xemnas has the power to summon KHoW from the Dark Realm cause once agin, if he had that power, why bother with Org XIII?
Because he used OrgXIII to create the KH of Men, which he used to summon the KH of Worlds.Which is apparently "completely destroyed" again? I wish you would get your story straight.




Especially since we don't have any proof it was his power alone that summoned the Hearts to his world. After all other Org members were dead, after Ansem blew up his KH of Men, he told Sora and gang to get more hearts for him. Had they actually did go collect more hearts for him, he implied that he could still use the hearts that they could've collected, when the rest of the Org was dead.

You're getting nowhere with this "no proof" stuff.He could be suing a machine as well. I mean seriously. Xemnas has the power to collect hearts which is shown in the series, but we never see him collect the massive amounts of heart you are talking about. Once again, he may be using a device, or Nobodies, or other means to gather the many Heartless, you have no evidence to suggest bringing together all the hearts and forming KHoM was done by him without some form of aid. Its not like we get to see pull a few million hearts out of a world at once.

If he had the pure power to do this by himself, once again, why would he need Org XIII?



Yeah, he could absorb his broken one. He might not be a god but it could be more than enough to beat a bunch of kids with Keyblades and a talking rat, dog, and duck.Absorb something that he said was "completely destroyed?" Wat.Cause he can't absorb it and become a demi-god, its "completely destroyed" that would be silly, now using it to summon KHoW to him makes so much more sense since its "completely destroyed".



Especially since his KHoM disappears after his first defeat from the party which is a pretty good hint to what really happened. The KHoM was completely destroyed by Ansem, though. As said by Xemnas himself. That was the KHoW that disappeared.No it isn't. Ansem blast a whole into it and its hearts start to fall out. The KH at the top of the Altar of Naught has a hole in it and is completely unstable. He also looks at it and says "its ruined" and then begins to talk with it. Its still the KHoM. It never changes except for its size between Ansem damaging it and Xemnas absorbing it and this makes perfect sense cause we saw all those hearts spill out.

If he summoned KHoW, you would think we would have gotten a light show or something cause obviously summoning the McGuffin of the game is a big deal.



Yeah, Darkness, not Realm of Darkness, not that the End of the World, Hollow Bastion, and TWTNW don't count as worlds that have a powerful influence of Darkness.TWTNW isn't darkness. The Realm of Darkness is Darkness.I used my words carefully, I said it had an influence of darkness it doesn't mean it is darkness.


Everything you mentioned except TWTNW can be easily crossed off, since we know and see that the answers aren't even remotely close to everything else, based on what we see in the game. So you're left with:

Some in-between world = Darkness
and
The Realm of Darkness = Darkness

Yeah, kinda easy to tell who's got the better one here. Even if what I say isn't 100% certain, it's still undoubtedly better than yours.Except Nojima and Nomura say its "in" TWTNW so yeah, I'd say I have the more canonical argument here.



This one very vague line is pretty lousy proof of anything.Only if you don't bother paying attention to what actually happens in the game and the rest of what he says. Just because something isn't directly said about something, does not make it lousy. So since KH isn't directly said to be a world or not, its now no longer a lousy argument? I love this "Do as I say, Not as I do" theory of arguing. ;)





Nomura and Nojima agree with me.Not really. "Like" =/= total agreement.Like = similar not total agreement
In = located or situated within among other meaning that mean KHoM is actually located in TWTNW

I don't think you can get any clearer than that.



Um... no. Traverse Town is a completely different world from Destiny Island and not anywhere close to it.The point is, you're saying that you can see KH from TWNTW as a moon, but you can also see DI as star from TT. Yet DI and TT are separate, so is KH and TWTNW. I'm talking about when Donald says "Look! A star/DI went out!" What you thought wasn't even close.Once again, like mainly deals with appearance not properties. Just because KHoM lloks like the moon doesn't mean it follows any of the same properties. This also does not change the fact that its in the world. Even if it was located the same distance as the moon for this world as ours, its still doesn't mean its outside of the world. Especially since we don't see any other worlds working like our solar system. The Winnie the Pooh World alone proves you can have a sun and moon and both are actually part of the world. You have not proven anything.




No, he actually says they do it themselves. He never said Xemnas was responsible. I can say that thread weaves together to form clothing, but that doesn't mean that it does it by itself. Xemnas being responsible is painfully obvious with that one scene where you see him clustering the hearts together.What part of masterless and free did you miss in his speech? He's talking about the nature of hearts not Xemnas mad weaving skills.




Once again, its not enough power to [I]achieve his goal, it doesn't mean its was useless."Something completely destroyed isn't useless at all!"Yes, cause it can be used to summon KHoW off screen!



KHoM is still swirling with power as he makes this declaration. His plans are ruined but it doesn't mean KHoM was useless for something else.KHoW is swirling with power, KHoM was completely destroyed and useless.


Only enough to screw over his goal of world domination. The thing still has some juice"I don't know what completely destroyed means!"I don't recognize that words have more than one definition and how each of them can actually be applicable. ;)



watch swirling power emanating from the KHoM in the videos I unlinked. When he asks for help, both him and the KHoM are being enveloped together with power coming from KHoM. His whole dialogue is him pleading with the KHoM to give him power in exchange for him giving it more hearts.Sorry, but KHoM was completely destroyed. But if you replace every KHoM with KHoW, you've got a true statement. ;)Except I know better, and pay attention in most cutscenes. ;)




The last line is interesting to note cause how is Sora and Co. a hindrance to KHoW? Obviously he is talking to the broken KHoM which was hindered by Ansem and Co."Hinder us" means that Sora and gang were going to kill Xemnas so that he couldn't merge, not that they were going to destroy KHoW. How can you not get something that simple?Sorry, I missed the part where "us" only meant Xemnas. Its a plural form of a pronoun usually used to signify more than one person so unless Xemnas treats his body and soul as separate entities its obvious he's including KH (which he's talking to) into his entourage. This dialogue just further proves he's speaking to KHoM.



His entire dialogue with KH is directed right at KHoM which he is facing. KHoM disappears after he is defeated by Sora and Co. the first time. How more obvious do you need to be to say he absorbed KHoM?The KHoM was completely destroyed by Ansem. Xemnas even admitted that the KHoM was completely destroyed. How more obvious do you need to be to say that KHoM was gone?Except you are misinterpreting the definition of ruin and suggesting it only has one meaning despite the physical evidence shown in the game suggesting that its other definitions are much better suited.. KHoM gets hole blown into it. KH at top of CTNW has hole in it. They look exactly the same except for size after the damage.




Which would be completely retarded to say if he actually absorbed KHoW cause he would technically have the power that is the foundation of the universe of KH. You would think he wouldn't need KHoM at that point.
But there's 2 KH's. How is it retarded to want all and not just half? Just cause you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong.But he could easily make the KHoH by absorbing the power of KHoW within a terribly short amount of time. Meaning he would never had needed KHoM to be complete cause all he would need is enough power to summon KHoW to him. Then he could create the other with little effort. This is a terribly illogical not to do.




Because it defeats the entire purpose of making KHoM...The purpose of KHoM was to get KHoW, which he managed to do; Ansem was too late.Accept he wouldn't be crying around about KHoM being 'completely destroyed" if he did. He would have announced he summoned KHoW, and would have flatten the party and gone off to subjegate the world and make himself even stronger. By you theory, Xemnas is not only an idiot but a a whiny crybaby.




Besides, he couldn't use the Dark Corridors to gather the Hearts since those passage ways can corrupt Hearts. They should all be turning into Heartless due to the corruptible nature of the CoD.You missed the part where they corrupt hearts after "extended use."When dealing with people traveling through them. Nothing ever talked about the effects on a lone heart without a shell.



We don't even know how Hearts travel when they are free from a Heartless.We see the the hearts disappear during that scene with Saix in Hollow Bastion. The only person who doesn't seem to know anything is you.You mean when they appear above the heartless and disappear in thin air. Yeah, they leave but its never said to be a Dark Corridor it doesn't even vanish like a normal person does when using the Dark Corridor.




For all we know, they travel through another path unique to them to return to their original body....but they weren't. Because Xemnas was controlling the path of the hearts.Beginning in 358/2 but what about before that? Like when the Worlds are restored at the end of KH1.

[PuPu]

Oh lord, where to begin...

You really should quit while you're behind.


Heart of Worlds, where hearts gather, Proof of Life... oh yeah these define KH so well and tells us everything it can and can't be.

Notice how none of those even suggest "world." You're only saying "well it could be a world because there's nothing that says it isn't." Remember my other example? It also doesn't define KH as a Heartless, the same way it doesn't define it as a World.



Funny, I can say the same thing about your argument.


You're not able to at all. You made the claim, thus you need to back it up first, or it automatically fails.



Like your baseless claim is any better?


At least I'm not the one that's using nearly all of my argument on just calling doubt to the other person's points while the rest of my argument also uses not 100% correct points.


Mine explains what happened to KHoM after Xemnas is defeated

Mine explains what happened to KHoW after Xemnas is defeated.



Xemnas' dialogue supports my idea since he is speaking to KHoM directly in a manner that only suits the context of the situation for KHoM


But it doesn't, refer to the whole "completely" deal.


and why we never see Xemnas summon KHoW.

We do see him do so, regardless of you ignoring what's right in front of your face.


You say he magically did all this cause KH could only be in the Realm of Darkness.

An KH is in the Realm of Darkness, according to the game.


Notice this is the first set of definitions as opposed to the the third you chose.

Notice how you're using the noun form of "ruin" as opposed to the verb form of ruin and "My Kingdom Hearts is ruined by Ansem."


Notice how your set of definitions are a bit different from the rest.

Notice how this doesn't stop me from being right, nor does it help you say that it definitely means "NOT completely destroyed."


I love how you completely ignore the other definitions and only mention the one that supports your theory and treat it like its the only true definition for the word.

Hypocrisy at its finest.


The other problem with your argument is that a person can say they "ruined a cake" but that does not mean the cake is "completely destroyed". Its still there and it can still be eaten, its just not going to taste very good if at all.

That's not using the word correctly then. I know that at least the word "destroyed" or a synonym is in the verb form of "ruined."



We actually see the remains of KHoM so its far from "completely destroyed" since it should have been wiped from existence had it truly been. Yet there it is at the Altar of Naught...

You see what's left from KHoW and KHoM being combined - KHoM...which = KHoW.


Hollow Bastion was plunged into Darkness by Xehanort and the End of the World (which is not an official In-Between world) also appears to be a heavily influenced by darkness.

This is KH2, not KH1 you know. Not that your point even matters, since you've said nothing here that says the hearts went to TWTNW.



Besides, you ignore my first statement which is whether Xemnas gathered them to him.


The answer to this is incredibly obvious that I shouldn't even have to bother.


If Hearts return to Darkness, and from Nomura has said about the Worlds In Between would that not suggest Hearts would have to travel through TWTNW even if through a Dark Corridor?

No, considering that Sora and friends managed to go from Hollow Bastion (Realm of Light) directly to the Realm of Darkness by Malef's Dark Corridor...


If he's strong enough or has the means to gather them, whose to say he needs to have KH in the Realm of Darkness. We only assume cause KHoW is in the Realm of Darkness and Saix said hearts return to darkness.

That's still two more reasons that my assumptions have than what your assumptions have...which are even more assumptions.


Just like you have really nothing on him pulling KHoW from the Realm of Darkness.

Because he fused with "KH" and there's only 1 KH left.


Wait a minute... now you are just going into circular reasoning at this point.

I was wondering when you'd try and accuse me of doing what you've been doing since your first few posts, and in every other post you made.


He can't use KHoM cause by your words its "completely destroyed" but he can use its power (which you say is "completely destroyed") to summon KHoW to him?

KHoW was already summoned to him before KHoM was destroyed. He didn't fuse with it until after fighting one-on-one with Sora though.


Except you have no evidence to say he couldn't do it
You're the one who propsed that hypothetical, you're the one that first needs to provide evidence that he could do it. If you can't, I don't need to do anything, because your hypothetical automatically fails in that case.


but then you say he needed KHoM to summon it, yet you say it was "completely destroyed" by Ansem which by your definition means he couldn't use it.

He was already able to use KHoM to summon KHoW to him before it was destroyed. But he couldn't use it to gain god powers.


Except its supposedly "completely destroyed" and yet he still summons KHoW with it...

Done before it was destroyed.


How is it not a world? Traverse Town has the same origins as the End of the World and its a World so why can End of the World not be?

I'm not talking about EoTW. The place where the DTD is, is not EoTW, it is a random nonworld place in the Realm of In-Between.


Which is the same baseless argument I'm making in reverse...

And like I said, this is the only thing you've got going for you that proves you're right, "because nothing says I'm wrong." But the problem is, since you made the claim that the random place in the Realm of Darkness is a world, you have to provide your own evidence first, and not just rely on "nothing proves me wrong." If you can't provide your own proof for your own claim, it automatically fails without me even needing to do anything.


Its true I don't have a right, but neither do you have the right to say what is a world and what is not.

Um...yeah I do. I can most definitely say a Heartless is NOT a World, and neither is a Keyblade, and neither is KH or a random place in the Realm of In-between. It's only you who can't decide whatever you want IS a world. Just like how you can't define a Heartless, Keyblade, KH, or a random place in the Realm of In between is a world.


But we never see it come to him, we only see him merge with KHoM. We never even get to see KHoW so how do we know he merged with it?

"KH of men completely destroyed, KH of World is in the Realm of Darkness, Xemnas didn't go to Realm of Darkness"


Or you can accept that "Ruin" doesn't absolutely mean "complete destruction" thus Xemnas absorbed a broken KHoM which would explain how he lost.

Or you can try learning paying attention to the correct form of verbs used in the game and that the verb form of ruin does include "completely destroyed."



Yeah, cause ruin doesn't always mean "completely destroyed". Course I guess he needs that "completely destroyed" KHoM to summon KHoW to him


Not when he succeeded in his goal before KHoM was destroyed.



And your is basically, "they never said it was".


See, here's the thing. You are the one who first brought up the claim that KH is a world. Thus, you need to provide proof for your own claims before I even have to do anything. If you've got no proof as I have said (i.e. "they never said it was") then your claim automatically fails. By using your logic that you can make correct claims without providing your own proof because nothing disproves your claims, children can claim their imaginary friends exist as well by simply saying to you "you can't prove me wrong." Unless you actually believe that those children are right, neither are you.


No, the Ansem Reports only say that Mickey visited and told Ansem about the Keyblade and made him aware of the Gummi Blocks. (Ansem Report 9 and Secret Ansem Report 2).

Gummi Blocks are made of the barriers around worlds. Guess what tore down those barriers? That's right, the Heartless!


We don't even know if the Heartless first appear in BBS or if anyone was aware of their danger at that time. Even Ansem the Wise was not aware of how bad things had gotten until he read the Secret Ansem reports.

He read the "Ansem Reports" ~10 years ago, before his apprentices became Nobodies. And he also wrote that his apprentices created Heartless in their labs.


They spoke about the stability of the world and worried about the Heartless but Mickey says he only noticed worlds were disappearing in his letter to Donald and Goofy, which seems to have been given to them at the start of KH1, nearly ten years later.

They only found it at the beginning of KH1, even though Mickey went to the Realm of Darkness much earlier.


We know he hasn't been gone for very long from Disney Castle when KH1 began.

Are you joking? He talked with Xehanort, and Xehanort was last seen alive 10 years before KH1.



If Mickey did not travel extensively in this time frame, he would have had little contact with the Heartless, especially since the Pillar of Light protects Disney Castle from the Heartless.


He's been to several worlds already. Several characters in worlds of KH1 know about him.


Mickey's absence in KH1 was said by Nomura in the Secret Director's Report to take place mostly in the Realm of Darkness. If was wiping out Heartless, it would stand to reason they would go to KHoW rather than KHoM or just be turned back into Heartless.

No, it wouldn't. Because we know that Xemnas was indeed re-directing hearts since ~BBS.


Yes, but its unreasonable to think they would not be aware of the events going on in KH1 and 2. Especially since the Heartless are attracted to the Keyblades. They are either hiding their Keyblades to protect themselves from the Heartless of Nobodies or are quite possible killed. Had others existed, I cannot see why Org XIII wouldn't be utilizing them like they did Roxas and Sora.

"Utilize Sora?" All they did was send Heartless at him for him to kill, and then re-direct the hearts, easily feasible with other Keybladers as well.


Except when he reveals it in the ending with the Kingdom Key of D.

So he made himself known to like, 5 people. Wow, major!


But if guys are killing Heartless, you would think Org. XIII would know about it. They found Sora after all.

...because Sora formed Roxas.


It also could prove he didn't have enough yet to start making it. There is no evidence to suggest he waited to start forming KHoM when Roxas joined cause he felt like it.

You/TSOL first made the claim that they didn't have enough hearts, so therefore, you need to provide the evidence they did first, and not just "nothing says I'm wrong."


It doesn't make logical sense to wait for a dedicated member to get you hearts before you start forming your artifical Kingdom Hearts. It instead suggest they didn't have enough Hearts yet.


"I don't like how it actually happened, so it's wrong, and nothing says my claim is wrong."

Even if the Realm of Darkness did work exactly like the Realm of Light, once again, what is stopping all the villains from just going to the Realm of Darkness and looking for KHoW on their own? Sora was able to explore a decent section of the Realm of Light and all of the Realm of In-Between in the span of little over a year.

Because there's no way you can explore "a decent section" of an entire dimension.


Its a world where KHoW resides with the Heartless and despite the Heartless' goal of consuming KH, they don't.

Tell that to the Darksides that you see through the DTD.


I don't mean Dark Corridor directly, they should have had ample time to explore the Realm of Darkness in 10 years. By not even bothering with the Realm of Light, they could have all achieved their goals with no pesky Keyblade wielder to thwart their plans. Besides, Mickey found KHoW. He's right there when the DTD is open in the Realm of Darkness.

The villains don't have a Dark Realm Keyblade, though.


Mickey doesn't have the Kingdom Key of D in BBS, we know Mickey went into the Realm of Darkness at the start of KH1 to find the key so he and Sora could seal the DTD.

Mickey knew that the Worlds were being swallowed by darkness since he talked with Xehanort ~10 years before KH1, so he went to the Realm of Darkness.


We get two looks into the Realm of Darkness, one is a luminescent cave filled with Heartless, the other is a vast dark ocean.

That's still two more reasons that I have to support what I say than what you have.


This is basically the same debate as the nature of KH. You have nothing that suggests it isn't the End of the World but say it isn't because no one says it was specifically the End of the World.

You're the one who first made the claim that it's in EotW, yet you've got nothing except "you can't prove me wrong" as the only thing going for you. Because you're the one that first made the claim, and because you can't provide any proof, your claim automatically fails.


How come when I make that argument its baseless conjecture but when you make, it its perfectly acceptable.

Because you first made the claim that it's in EotW, thus you have to provide the proof for your own claim. The claim that I made in response to your original claim is right because your claim automatically fails because you couldn't first provide your own evidence. Any claim that's made (that isn't a negative statement with some form of "not") needs proof first, or the opposite claim is automatically true.


Yeah... Remember how it also said the Dark Beach was the actual border between the Worlds of In-Between and and Realm of Darkness.

...for that particular world, where the Dark Beach was.


TWTNW is bordered to the Realm of Darkness, the actual dividing line is the Dark Beach.

The Dark Beach is only the border for that world that it's located in.


Except Xemnas was on the Dragon... so he apparently did have to go into the Realm of Darkness.

Except Dragon was in TWNTW, not the Realm of Darkness.


Yes the world is, but the world could be larger than we think, the Dark Coastline being nowhere near CTNW or the Dark city suggest.

Again, the world of the Dark Beach is separate from TWTNW and the Dark Beach is only the border for that particular world.


But you never see him summon KHoW top TWTNW.

...before Ansem destroyed the KHoM. You never see Xemnas personally re-directing hearts that Roxas and Sora released either, doesn't mean it didn't happen.


He's talking to and being enveloped by the KHoM.
The comepletely destroyed KHoM?


Well it must have some power if Xemnas used it to summon KHoW to him.

Which happens before it was destroyed.


I've spoken to a lot of KH fans and you are the first one to come up with this scenario of how the ending happened in KHII. Fan sites or official sites never state anything about Xemnas summoning and merging with KHoW.

Which lets you make up anything you want, am I right?


Saix said Hearts form KH in Darkness when left to their own devices. I don't think that constitutes as a direct reference to KHoM was forming in the Realm of Darkness, especially since we know Org.XIII was responsible for the gathering of hearts there.

Not even close to what Saix actually said. When hearts are left alone, they go back to their original bodies, wherever they may be.


Xemnas never entered the Realm of Dark cause KHoM was in TWTNW.

No, because KHoW was there as a result of KHoM before it was destroyed.


Once again, we don't know what Mickey was doing during that whole time and once again, Xemnas doesn't bother forming KHoM until Roxas joins the Organization in 358/2

Mickey was fighting Heartless in the Realm of Darkness, because he knew the Heartless were destroying worlds, Xemnas still began collecting hearts since BBS.


Cause ruin obviously only has one actual definition. The other definitions there don't mean anything cause they don't support my theory.

It's funny how you're accusing me of the exact same thing that you're doing.


But at the same time, he uses this "completely destroyed KHoM" to summon KHoW.

...which was already there for him to merge with.


Yet I find it hard to believe that a person with such strength could fall to Sora and the others even after supposedly summoning KHoW and absorbing its power.

...because Sora and Riku are also among the top most powerful people in KH, and they outnumbered Xemnas?


He may be powerful but I feel you are giving him greater credit than he actually deserves.

That's just what Nomura said.


His god mode either really sucks or he never obtained the level of power some people believe he did.

He was still outnumbered by two other top most powerful people in KH.


Like yours is any better. KHoW exists in the Realm of Darkness, Saix said KHoM is forming in the realm of darkness (which he never said)

It certainly wasn't TWTNW that Saix was talking about, leaving only one choice.


thus it has to be there despite Xemnas walking up to it and touching it

Now I know you're making things up.


and absorbing its "completely destroyed" power to summon the real KHoW which never actually appeared.

He didn't absorb it, KHoW was summoned before "completely destroyed," which did happen.


Read the other definitions, if you want. It just defines it as bearing similarities to it but not being it, it looks "like" a moon as in resembles not that its treated like one. Nomura and Nojima said KHoM is "in" TWTNW.

"Like" applies to everything in the sentence afterward, including "in." Check out how the quotation marks don't just end at "moon."

Read as: "It's similar to being in TWTNW" (but not exactly in TWTNW). "Like" doesn't only apply to "a moon".


Just because it resembles a moon does not mean it actually positioned like a moon. Planets look like stars in the night sky without a telescope but it hardly means they are the same distance.

That's not the point.

"Like":
"a moon in TWTNW"
"a star in Traverse Town"
"a train stop in Twilight Town"

All of these things are "similar" to being "in" their corresponding worlds, but that is not actually the case, because they are separate.


All I'm suggesting is that darkness doesn't mean Realm of Darkness exclusively.

Since you see where the hearts are gathered, choices such as EotW and "Heartless" are completely crossed off. The only things left are TWTNW and the Realm of Darkness. It's not hard to guess which one is more likely, basically assuredly, mean "darkness."


Which is apparently "completely destroyed" again? I wish you would get your story straight.

Read as: "before completely destroyed"


you have no evidence to suggest bringing together all the hearts and forming KHoM was done by him without some form of aid.

I really don't even need any evidence. You're the one who first brought up a claim, that he needed aid, which you've yet to provide your own proof for except "you can't prove me wrong!"

Just like a kid saying that his imaginary friend exists without proof automatically fails, the same goes for you making a claim without also providing your own proof.


Its not like we get to see pull a few million hearts out of a world at once.

We didn't actually see DiZ infiltrate The Castle that Never Was, therefore it didn't happen, right? lol


If he had the pure power to do this by himself, once again, why would he need Org XIII?

Uh...faster? Durrrr


Cause he can't absorb it and become a demi-god, its "completely destroyed" that would be silly, now using it to summon KHoW to him makes so much more sense since its "completely destroyed".

"Before completely destroyed"


No it isn't. Ansem blast a whole into it and its hearts start to fall out. The KH at the top of the Altar of Naught has a hole in it and is completely unstable.

Because it's missing 1 KHoM.


He also looks at it and says "its ruined" and then begins to talk with it. Its still the KHoM.

Yeah, he's still talking about it. About how it's completely destroyed.


It never changes except for its size between Ansem damaging it and Xemnas absorbing it and this makes perfect sense cause we saw all those hearts spill out.

When things combine, they don't necessarily become bigger. Roxas didn't cause Sora to become bigger when he combined with him.


If he summoned KHoW, you would think we would have gotten a light show or something cause obviously summoning the McGuffin of the game is a big deal.

"Because I don't like how it happened, it's false!"


I used my words carefully, I said it had an influence of darkness it doesn't mean it is darkness.

I must have missed the part where Saix said "influence" then.


Except Nojima and Nomura say its "in" TWTNW so yeah, I'd say I have the more canonical argument here.

Except Nojima and Nomura say its "like" its "in" TWTNW. If anything, what you said only helped me.


So since KH isn't directly said to be a world or not, its now no longer a lousy argument? I love this "Do as I say, Not as I do" theory of arguing.

By your logic, everything is lousy because it's not directly said to be something else. "A Keyblade isn't directly said to be a Heartless, therefore saying a Keyblade isn't a Heartless is a lousy argument!"


Like = similar not total agreement
In = located or situated within among other meaning that mean KHoM is actually located in TWTNW

I don't think you can get any clearer than that.

You forgot to combine "like" and "in."


Once again, like mainly deals with appearance not properties.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/alien_gundamneo/RI/1255308244371.jpg


Just because KHoM lloks like the moon doesn't mean it follows any of the same properties. This also does not change the fact that its in the world.

DI being a star to TT is almost exactly the same concept as KH being a moon to TWTNW. Whether or not they follow the properties of celestial bodies doesn't even matter, DI and TT are clearly stated to be separate worlds. KH to TWTNW also applies, minus the KH being a world part.


What part of masterless and free did you miss in his speech? He's talking about the nature of hearts not Xemnas mad weaving skills.

He's talking about the fact that hearts are free without a body to go to, when someone gets turned into a heartless. He didn't mean "hearts are able to act on their own" at all, because they would be returning to their original bodies like the DSR states, not forming KH. I don't even see why you're bothering to argue this, you've already acknowledged that Xemnas did indeed control the hearts, and we actually see Xemnas weaving the hearts in KH2.


Yes, cause it can be used to summon KHoW off screen!

Yeah, because believe it or not, things DO happen off screen, that the player doesn't see.


I don't recognize that words have more than one definition and how each of them can actually be applicable.

Look who's talking.


Except I know better, and pay attention in most cutscenes.

How unfortunate that it doesn't help you come up with any of your own proof at all.


Sorry, I missed the part where "us" only meant Xemnas. Its a plural form of a pronoun usually used to signify more than one person so unless Xemnas treats his body and soul as separate entities its obvious he's including KH (which he's talking to) into his entourage. This dialogue just further proves he's speaking to KHoM.

What he actually was saying was "hinder us [from becoming one]" and Xemnas dying would be a pretty darn good hindrance.


Except you are misinterpreting the definition of ruin and suggesting it only has one meaning

Except I and the game are not talking about ruin, the noun.


despite the physical evidence shown in the game suggesting that its other definitions are much better suited..KHoM gets hole blown into it. KH at top of CTNW has hole in it. They look exactly the same except for size after the damage.

...despite that combining didn't change their size.


But he could easily make the KHoH by absorbing the power of KHoW within a terribly short amount of time.

Except he's missing at least a few million hearts for making the KHoM.


Meaning he would never had needed KHoM to be complete cause all he would need is enough power to summon KHoW to him.

Which is only 1 out of 2 KH's, which is only half the power he wanted.


Then he could create the other with little effort. This is a terribly illogical not to do.

Now you're assuming that he can create hearts. That's just about the most illogical thing I've ever heard.


Accept he wouldn't be crying around about KHoM being 'completely destroyed" if he did. He would have announced he summoned KHoW

Why wouldn't he? He just lost a major power source.


and would have flatten the party and gone off to subjegate the world and make himself even stronger.

That could be what he have done, except for the part where he failed at "flatten the party."


By you theory, Xemnas is not only an idiot but a a whiny crybaby.

He did try to flatten the party as you said. I'd be whining too if my 10 year plan of creating the KHoM got foiled by those meddling kids and their keyblade.


When dealing with people traveling through them. Nothing ever talked about the effects on a lone heart without a shell.

Nothing ever talked about there being a difference in heart corruptibility. But that still doesn't just give you the right to make up your own unquestionable claims based on "can't prove me wrong", like you've been doing for almost this entire debate.


You mean when they appear above the heartless and disappear in thin air. Yeah, they leave but its never said to be a Dark Corridor

Darkness surrounds the hearts, and then they are whisked off to another location. That's exactly what Dark Corridors do, darkness forms around the person, they disappear.


it doesn't even vanish like a normal person does when using the Dark Corridor.

In case you haven't noticed, there isn't one specific animation that occurs when someone uses a Dark Corridor. Org13/Riku/DiZ can form two different types of them. Maleficent has her own Dark Corridor. The Heartless and lower Nobodies also have their own Dark Corridors. Good job at paying attention to cutscenes, by the way.

Try using something that isn't weak next time. Actually, I guess this is an improvement over "can't prove me wrong."


never said to be

Oh look, it's what you're basing every one of your claims off. "It's never said that I'm wrong, so I'm right."


Beginning in 358/2 but what about before that? Like when the Worlds are restored at the end of KH1.

Um, ya. Xemnas has known about Sora and kept tabs on him since KH1 when he fought with Sora in Hollow Bastion.

358/2 Days starts the day that Sora turned into a Heartless, by the way. Hopefully this'll help clear up this cloud of ignorance around you.

[Tavrobel]

This page is too long and requires too much scrolling. You're both idiots, and I fail to see of what benefit this argument is, mostly because:

A) participants have a flawed understanding of material space as featured in KH
B) tried to break up 179 into too itty-bitty literary components
C) I'm not really sure what you're arguing at this point
D) semantics; therefore, you are both screwed, because English sucks

Therefore, I declare the winner to be me for actually reading all of this.

[PuPu]

participants have a flawed understanding of material space as featured in KH


tried to break up 179 into too itty-bitty literary components


What does this even mean?


I'm not really sure what you're arguing at this point

My main point is:
Xemnas made the KH of Worlds come to him in TWTNW by using the KH of men.


semantics; therefore, you are both screwed, because English sucks

Welcome to 99% of all debates.


Therefore, I declare the winner to be me for actually reading all of this.

Good job. Now you can leave knowing that you purposely managed to make yourself do something you didn't even want to do. And you won't have to worry about how long the page is when you're no longer in this topic.

[Tavrobel]

It means you're trying to bring too much outside knowledge into your analysis of the game. It's already bad enough to bring in what Nomura says about it (seeing as he's got a good two games to expand on it in the near future, and he's an idiot), but if an event did not happen or that you can't rationalize it based on the evidence in the games, you can't say it happened. I thought it was fairly obvious.

As for your explanation of how space in KH works, it is rickety at best. If you're going to differentiate between the KH of the World and KH as it appears to individuals, you're going to have to seriously revise your explanation of how characters interact with KH.

And no, I'm always here. If I'm not, then it means I'm in General Chat. No one wants that.

[PuPu]

What the games say and what Nomura says are essentially the same in regards to the storyline. If I can rationalize it based on what Nomura directly said, it's just as good, if not better than what is said in the games.

The games already differentiated between the two KH's in, the DSR13 just confirms what the games have said.

I'm always here too. The FF boards just aren't that interesting, I guess.

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm not even going to bother with the whole retort since you cannot even be civil with anyone in this thread. I'm actually in agreement with Tavrobel about how utterly ridiculous our discussion is. I'm just going to stick to the main point cause personally, I could care less about the definition of a world in KH, or whether KH is a world. Its a McGuffin, plain and simple.

Ruin - From Webster's Dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Ruin)
Main Entry: ^2ruinFunction: verb
Date: 1585
transitive verb 1 : to reduce to ruins : devastate
2 a : to damage irreparably b : bankrupt, impoverish <ruin>ed by stock speculation>
3 : to subject to frustration, failure, or disaster <will ruin="" your="" chances="" of="" promotion="">intransitive verb : to become ruined


From Cambridge Dictionary (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=68972&dict=CALD)
ruin verb

/ˈruː.ɪn/ v [T]

•
to spoil or destroy severely or completely
Huge modern hotels have ruined this once unspoilt coastline.
Her injury ruined her chances of winning the race.


•
to cause a person or company to lose all their money or their reputation
Cheap imported goods are ruining many businesses.
If there's a scandal I'll be ruined!

This is why I hate the English language.

As for the Nomura and Nojima line. You obviously didn't read the whole thing or took proper grammar.


For example, the heart-shaped moon in the previous game’s key visual showed up this time as the Kingdom Hearts. Did you think of doing this right from the start?
No, I didn’t. I asked Nojima-san (Nojima Kazushige) to write KHII’s scenario and in his scenario it was written that the Kingdom Hearts Xemnas created is “like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” When I read that, I thought “Oh, this can be connected!” (laugh) so I made it to look like the moon in the previous game’s key visual. The World that Never Was has the “Dark City” right from the beginning of the game’s development and since then its background is night. That’s why when Nojima-san wrote that Xemnas was creating Kingdom Hearts in the sky, coincidentally he wrote “it looks like a moon” but I thought it got connected by destiny.Also, the quotation marks used in the original sentence, “like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” is proceeded by Nomura saying he read it off of Nojima's scenario. Thus the quotation marks are being used to signify Nomura quoting something Nojima wrote, as opposed to him saying "like" a moon in the TWTNW. He later says "it looks like a moon" signifying what Nojima meant by like. No where does it say this is the case of Sora learning that worlds look like star in the sky to other words as you are trying to pin this on. Had the line read, "like a moon seen in TWTNW" you would have an argument but instead your wasting my time with trying to say "in" does not constitute its meaning in this sentence because its in quotes. You also fail to notice the word before in, floats, as in an action, "floats in" means it is "floating in the World" as opposed to outside of it.

We don't see moons or suns rotating outside for the worlds but they have them nonetheless which means they exist within the worlds. Nomura and Nojima say its in the TWTNW, so yes, they retcon something within KH, guess what? They can do this cause they are the creator and scenario writer and its in their power to do so. They have done it before in other projects.

So guess what, we know Hearts form KH in Darkness its never said hearts can only form KH in the Dark Realm and Nojima, Nomura, and Xemnas prove this. Cause Xemnas forms KHoM in TWTNW.

We never see KHoW summoned. We see Ansem accidentally destroy KHoM, we then see the wreckage of a KH with a freaking hole in it exactly where KHoM was. If Xemnas had already summoned KHoW, where was it up until this point? Behind KHoM? Also, saying Xemnas did it off screen is okay, cause "we never see Ansem sneak into CTNW" is a terrible excuse. There is a big difference on story impact between watching a side character sneak into a location and watching a villain fulfill his plans by summoning the ultimate McGuffin. He never talks about summoning it, no one mentions "hey, there's a new KH, must be the real one!", we do not see any scene depicting what you say and your only argument that says you are right is one lousy english word used in a melodramatic tone and the fact KH says KH exists in Darkness. If he doesn't talk about it, and we don't see him do it, and no one recognizes he did, chances are... he never did it.

Well I found you two more "verb form" explanation for ruin and neither says it absolutely and only means "completely destroyed" which works, cause who says crap like "its ruined" and actually means its "completely destroyed" from an objective standpoint? I sat on my cake and now its ruined. It doesn't mean the cake is "completely destroyed" it still exists its just looks like a crushed cake with my ass imprinted on it. FFVI has the "Ruined World" its hardly "completely destroyed" otherwise the game would have ended right then and there.

Nojima and Nomura say the KHoM is floating in TWTNW and it looks like a moon. Xemnas never summons KHoW, its not even mentioned in the game, instead he absorbs the "ruined" as in "irreparable or severally destroyed" KHoM and battles the party. All you need to do is play the game and see for yourself.

At this point in time, I've grown tired of dealing with you so don't bother replying to this post, cause as far as I'm concerned, I believe I am right and you believe you are right and neither of us can convince the other either way, so the whole discussion is moot.</will></ruin>

[G13]

This is late in coming and I don't have the patience to read through all these mile long posts to see if it was brought up but regarding Kanno's theory about KH being the reflection of one's heart, you said something about not understanding why it looked the same for Xemnas as it did for Ansem. Maybe it's because Xemnas, as a Nobody, doesn't have a heart for it to reflect itself off of so it took the form of the last person's to open it.

Just a thought.

[PuPu]

This is why I hate the English language.

We both know that applying definitions such as bankruptcy make no sense at all in this case, so why bring them up?


2 a : to damage irreparably

Xemnas told the Keybladers to "bring him more hearts." Could it be to use the hearts to repair his supposedly still standing KHoM? Nah, it can't be, because it is so damaged that it can't be repaired. Now he needs to create the KHoM again in order to achieve true omnipotence like he wanted.

Have fun proving that ruined does NOT mean "irreparable."


I'm not even going to bother with the whole retort since you cannot even be civil with anyone in this thread.

This is coming from the guy that's saying:

-"I think my points are better than PuPu's because I think he's got nothing to prove himself right, even though I've got nothing to say I'm right either."

-"Because it's never said I'm wrong, I'm right. I can also make up my own rules to what Nomura says as well."

-"I don't like how the game showed how things really worked, so therefore the game is incorrect."

Seriously, if I were "civil," I could just mimic you and we'd both end up getting nowhere, because we'd both be stalemated by "you can't prove yourself right, and you can't prove the other guy wrong" to every single point that either of us made. That's an even worse scenario than what actually happened.


I'm actually in agreement with Tavrobel about how utterly ridiculous our discussion is.

I agree, due to the reasons stated above.


I'm just going to stick to the main point cause personally, I could care less about the definition of a world in KH, or whether KH is a world.

One of the first points you made was that KH can't go to TWTNW because of world barriers. KH isn't a world, one of your points fails.


You obviously didn't read the whole thing or took proper grammar.

Actually it seems that we both missed one important part.


Did you think of doing this right from the start?

You'll know what I mean in a few sentences...


Also, the quotation marks used in the original sentence, “like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” is proceeded by Nomura saying he read it off of Nojima's scenario. Thus the quotation marks are being used to signify Nomura quoting something Nojima wrote, as opposed to him saying "like" a moon in the TWTNW.

That only changes the fact that it's Nojima that wrote "like it is in TWTNW" rather than Nomura. Had it been written the way you wanted, it would go "...is 'like a moon' that floats in the World that Never Was."


He later says "it looks like a moon" signifying what Nojima meant by like.

Because the interview refers to the game "from the start" as in, early production, this means that it was originally planned on being "in TWTNW," but that it wasn't. He later says "it looks like a moon" which is missing the "in TWTNW" part, meaning Nomura only acknowledged the moon part and not the "in TWTNW" part. And it says that Nomura only cared about the moon part because it fit the moon on the KH1 box, he completely disregarded the "in TWTNW" part.

Besides, it's not hard to believe that Nomura changed around ideas that were originally planned for the game, considering that early scans of KH2 show scenes of Sora and Org13 in the Hollow Bastion castle, but it was later removed from the actual game.


No where does it say this is the case of Sora learning that worlds look like star in the sky to other words as you are trying to pin this on.

I never said that it did. But you can't deny they are at least very similar cases, if not the same.


You also fail to notice the word before in, floats, as in an action, "floats in" means it is "floating in the World" as opposed to outside of it.

It doesn't change the fact that "like" still applies to "in" and "floats in."


We don't see moons or suns rotating outside for the worlds but they have them nonetheless which means they exist within the worlds.

I'm sorry, did you just imply that Neil Armstrong became famous in 1969 for being the first person to step foot on a place "within Earth"?


Nomura and Nojima say its in the TWTNW, so yes, they retcon something within KH, guess what? They can do this cause they are the creator and scenario writer and its in their power to do so.

The only part they retconned was "in TWTNW."


its never said hearts can only form KH in the Dark Realm

But that isn't what you're trying to prove. You're trying to prove specifically that the hearts formed in TWNTW, which you haven't. Ever.


Cause Xemnas forms KHoM in TWTNW.

He maybe could have done it in Nojima's mind, but not in the actual KH2 that Nomura created.


We never see KHoW summoned.

We never see DiZ infiltrate into TWTNW either, doesn't mean it didn't happen.


We see Ansem accidentally destroy KHoM

"Accidentally?" That was his entire plan all along, to destroy KHoM, whether by turning it into data and deleting it, or making it blow up.


we then see the wreckage of a KH with a freaking hole in it exactly where KHoM was.

...where KHoM was. And where it was already combined with KHoW.


If Xemnas had already summoned KHoW, where was it up until this point? Behind KHoM?

KHoW ended up in TWTNW, where Xemnas absorbs it. KHoM got destroyed almost immediately after.


Also, saying Xemnas did it off screen is okay, cause "we never see Ansem sneak into CTNW" is a terrible excuse.

No it isn't. The terrible excuse is calling one thing that isn't shown that's obvious as okay, while calling another not shown and obvious thing isn't. Xemnas was in TWTNW the whole time, his KHoM was destroyed


There is a big difference on story impact between watching a side character sneak into a location and watching a villain fulfill his plans by summoning the ultimate McGuffin.

There isn't a big difference when that "side character" is a major part of ruining the villain's plans almost immediately after he arrives.


He never talks about summoning it

So? He never talks about tons of things that he did, but didn't talk about. Everybody can do things without talking about them.


no one mentions "hey, there's a new KH, must be the real one!"

No one has to. Xemnas already told you the KH he made was gone.


we do not see any scene depicting what you say

We do not see any scene depicting that Xemnas formed KHoM in TWTNW either. Seriously, not only is this stuff that you're doing weak, but it can easily be applied to your points as well.


and your only argument that says you are right is one lousy english word

Which is actually enough to prove that KHoM was gone, thus making everything else I said true.


and the fact KH says KH exists in Darkness

It's still more than what you've got to say that Xemnas made KHoM in TWTNW.


If he doesn't talk about it, and we don't see him do it, and no one recognizes he did, chances are... he never did it.

Xemnas did talk about his KHoM being completely destroyed, we did see Ansem destroy it, and everyone recognizes it was completely destroyed because they saw Ansem and Xemnas talking about it. Try harder.



Well I found you two more "verb form" explanation for ruin and neither says it absolutely and only means "completely destroyed" which works, cause who says crap like "its ruined" and actually means its "completely destroyed" from an objective standpoint? I sat on my cake and now its ruined. It doesn't mean the cake is "completely destroyed" it still exists its just looks like a crushed cake with my ass imprinted on it.

You're also acting like "not completely destroyed" is the only definition. The most ridiculous and incorrect part in this entire quote is you implying that you've been looking at it objectively. But now got two things that says I'm right thanks to you, so have fun with "irreparably."


FFVI has the "Ruined World" its hardly "completely destroyed" otherwise the game would have ended right then and there.

"World of Ruin (noun)."


Nojima and Nomura say the KHoM is floating in TWTNW and it looks like a moon.

1. "Like" applies to the whole phrase.
2. This was in early KH2 production.
3. The final product of KH2 only has Nomura acknowledge "like a moon." "in TWNTW" is completely disregarded by Nomura.


Xemnas never summons KHoW, its not even mentioned in the game

Xemnas never fused with KHoM, it's not even mentioned in the game.


instead he absorbs the "ruined" as in "irreparable or severally destroyed"

Yet he asks for more hearts...which he can't use to fix his "irreparable" KHoM. And he wanted full omnipotence, which is KHoW and KHoM. A non-destroyed and non-irreparable KHoM, obviously.


At this point in time, I've grown tired of dealing with you so don't bother replying to this post, cause as far as I'm concerned, I believe I am right and you believe you are right and neither of us can convince the other either way, so the whole discussion is moot.

Maybe 90% of the points that you've made are only supported with "nothing proves me wrong," but at least every point I've made, including the ones made in response opposite to the claims you've made first, don't automatically fail for lack of proof.

A child can claim to me that Santa Claus exists and do the same thing that you've been doing for every point you've made and still think he's right, but I should hope that both of us know he's wrong.

[x~Agita~x]

My goodness. What a display of plot analysis...

Um, anyways, I was in church the other day and a verse was mentioned that reminded me of "Xemnas'" description of the true nature of the human heart, despite it seeming superficially pure and beautiful. It also reminded me of Ansem the Wise's ultimately fruitless investigation into the nature of the heart and subsequent chaos that ensued.


Jeremiah 17:9 (King James Version)

9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

'Xemnas' and Ansem the Wise, respectively.




"That fool Ansem said the heart's true nature was beyond his understanding...

All worlds begin in darkness, and all so end. The heart is no
different. Darkness sprouts within it, grows, consumes it. Such is
its nature. In the end, every heart returns to the darkness whence
it came. You see, darkness is the hearts true essence."

--------------
"I have made a grave mistake...

...What on earth was happening within the hearts of my six beloved apprentices? While persuing the mystery of the darkness of the heart, could they themselves have strayed into its depths?

...We are not meant to interfere in the depths of another's heart, no matter what our reasons for doing so..."

Sounds like a KH quote, huh? Nah, it's the bible. Which prompts me to further investigate the ideologies behind the Kingdom Hearts universe and Biblical scripture. Not saying it's subliminal preaching (or that the idea of the heart being mysterious and forbidden to study is even an entirely original one!) or some crap like that, but it's just interesting to see parallels...

EDIT: Um, I think I got most of that right? ^^; Didn't completely derail the thread, did I?