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Shishikabob
11-15-2009, 05:27 AM
Okay I think I threw too much info into this post at once and people are like OMG WTF :monster:
Let me start over

I'm Shishikabob and I think that Cloud loves Tifa for many reasons. I won't post them all right away, but I would like to point out the one I think is most important.

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.
This is probably the most important quote because it's one that can stand on it's own. Now I've heard arguments to the effect of, "It doesn't say what feelings, it could be feelings of friendship." but that doesn't make sense for a few reasons. One of which is that Cloud and Tifa were already friends at that point. So they could not be realizing a feeling they already had. Second of all, have you ever in your entire life known the phrase "feelings for each other" to mean anything except romantic feelings?

Now I want to hear from you. Who do you think Cloud loves and why?

Hello, I think it's time we discuss who Cloud's main love interest is. I'm Shishikabob and I'll be your host this evening.

Now when I talk about the love triangle of FFVII, I believe there IS an answer. A definite answer. This isn't me saying, "Well my opinion is the answer is Tifa but it's up in the air." This is me saying, "It's Tifa, she is the answer. Always was always will be." BUT I know people disagree and I'd like to hear and discuss your thoughts on it. I do believe that Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith at the start of the game, but after the Lifestream event, it was all about Tifa.

Here are some reasons why I think so.

In FF7, Tifa is the only one who knows Cloud’s childhood, and furthermore, she holds the key to people involved in the story of Nibelheim’s burning down, which is also depicted in CC. She and Cloud came to realize their feelings for each other in the end of the story, and live together in AC and DC.
This is probably the most important quote because it's one that can stand on it's own. Now I've heard arguments to the effect of, "It doesn't say what feelings, it could be feelings of friendship." but that doesn't make sense for a few reasons. One of which is that Cloud and Tifa were already friends at that point. So they could not be realizing a feeling they already had. Second of all, have you ever in your entire life known the phrase "feelings for each other" to mean anything except romantic feelings?

Here's a few quotes from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania.

In Advent Children
The happier he is now,
The more Cloud is tormented by painful “memories” of the past.

Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family.
...........
The more he realizes how happy he is living with Tifa and the children, the more the fear of losing that and regrets toward the past trouble Cloud…
...........
With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.
...........

Cloud is happy with Tifa and forming a family with her and they're raising children. This isn't something you do with a college room mate. I've heard arguments to counter this to say that Avalanche was once staying at the 7th heaven long before Cloud came there and they were also all raising Marlene, but Tifa never referred to Marlene as her daughter back then. Plus that unit is never referred to as a family where as Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel have been MANY times.

I've also heard some say that Barret is part of the family and the father figure and Cloud is more like a big kid. The claim of Cloud being a "big kid" comes from a statement in the Reunion Files that says:


Nomura "Tifa was a very difficult character to create. Like Aerith, she has a maternal side to her, but in a different sense. Not only was she looking after Marlene and Denzel, but she also felt a certain maternal bond to Cloud, who is a 'big kid' himself in some respects. Yet despite this, she continues working as the manager of Seventh Heaven without a complaint." ~Nomura; Reunion Files

While it's true Cloud's stated here to be a big kid there's a couple things we need to take into consideration. First of all, that “Maternal bond” line isn't in the original Japanese text. It simply states that Tifa took care of Cloud and the kids. Second of all, so what if Cloud is like a big kid? I'm like a big kid myself. I still watch cartoons, I love action figures and plushies and I love video games and things like that. Plus there have been times when I felt a “maternal bond” to my BF whom I've taken care of when he's been sick. Feeling motherly toward someone at times doesn't mean you can't love them romantically.


As for the other argument, there are absolutely 0 claims to support Barret is part of the family. I'd like to also point out that the family is in fact Cloud's.

Here are a few more quotes to support my claim:


After traveling to several places with Cloud and Barret, Tifa opens the bar Seventh Heaven in Edge on the advice of those around her. She was given custody of Marlene from Barret, who had left on a journey to find a new energy source. Together with Cloud, the 3 of them began living together as a family.
Notice the part I bolded. It specifically states the three of them are a family. Just the three of them.

Also from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania:

Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum’s church and Denzel joins Cloud’s family.
Right there it states that the family is Cloud's.

Also in FFVII AC Cloud calls the family his.
"Tifa I don't think I'm fit to help anyone. Not my family, not my friends, nobody."

Lastly there's the ACC playback. This guide also specifically states who's in the family:


When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma– his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself.
In order we have
1. His friends.
2. The children
3. Tifa, Marlene and Denzel... his family! No mention of Barret or anyone else being in the family. Tifa, Marlene and Denzel are separated from the rest.

Now I know some people say that Marlene had to put Cloud in the family herself, but that doesn't mean the family isn't his. If I suggested you and your SO get married and you guys start a family, is the family not yours then?

Also yes Barret is still Marlene's adoptive father and she still calls him Daddy. He will always be her adoptive family, but part of Cloud's family he is not. So we have, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel as a family unit. This isn't something you do with a good friend.

That ends the family point of my debate so let me point out some more quotes that put Cloud and Tifa together:


Inside, I felt one thing was for sure: Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be back home where they belonged.
That's self explanatory and no it is not talking about locations.


Tifa, who from 2 years ago has been the only one Cloud opened his heart to. Now he has closed off his heart even from her.
Okay I know that opening your heart to someone doesn't mean confessing your love, but that's not the part you should pay attention to. The point is this statement says the only person Cloud ever opened his heart to was Tifa. Not Aerith or anyone else, but Tifa. He must trust Tifa on a level that no one else can compare to. Would Cloud have opened his hear to Aerith had she lived? It's possible, but he certainly never had time to in the two weeks that he knew her.

Tifa is also said to be an important woman to Cloud:

With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.
Again we have Tifa listed as important and we again, have the family being referred to as Cloud's. Now Some like to say Aerith was important to Cloud but let's look at those quotes really quick:


Behind these actions lies feelings of guilt towards his past failure to protect people who were important to him, but through his battle with Kadaj’s gang, the legacy of Jenova, he regains the courage to face reality.
Here we have his failure to protect “PEOPLE” who were important to him. It doesn't just say Aerith, thus Aerith and Zack are both important to him.

Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him, she was a major factor in causing him to close himself off.
What is Aerith here? Not a girlfriend or a love interest or a member of his family but a symbol of his failures. And uhm... DUH Aerith was one of the reasons he closed off his heart! And it's the guilt that Cloud feels about her death that's causing him to get depressed etc etc...

Also in the AC playback book from this quote:

"The place where he awakens-
That is Cloud's Promised Land

As he sleeps, Cloud hears two voices. The voices of two people very dear to him, who are no longer with him. Playfully and kindly, they give him a message: he doesn't belong here yet.

When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma- his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself.

And when he turns around- 'she' is starting to leave. Together with the friend who had given Cloud his life. Cloud no longer has to suffer in loneliness... And so they too go back to where they belong.

Back to the current of life flowing around the planet-."

Aerith is put on the same level as Zack emotionally. Two people "very dear to him," not "his true love and his buddy Zack" or anything like that. If Aerith really was more important to Cloud than anyone, it would not put her on the same level as Zack.

For the final nail in the Clerith coffin, or the way I see it anyway is this quote by Nojima when being interviewed about OTWTAS:

"First, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to work it out. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big, I think." ~Nojima, interview about On the Way to a Smile

Simple question: Why would Nojima bring up love, marriage and family in the context of Tifa and Cloud and Case of Tifa, and then mention Aerith as a hypothetical love interest if Tifa was not a current love interest? Put it in perspective, imagine you and your friend, I don't know, Steve had a fight. And I said to you, "Hey things between you and Steve aren't going so well.. not that I intend to go into my views on love, marriage and family." You'd be very confused wouldn't you?


There are many more reasons I feel that Cloud and Tifa are canon couple and THE canon couple of FFVII, but I won't go into them all here, I'll let other people talk first. Sorry if I typed too much. I'd like to hear any and all opinions on this and look forward to discussing this with you guys.

Darth Cid
11-15-2009, 05:31 AM
I say neither one. That's all I got though, it would take too long to explain.

Shishikabob
11-15-2009, 05:32 AM
Did you... happen to read any of my post? :( Heck just read the first quote, that might change you rmind :monster:

I mean you're entitled to your opinion but I'd at least like it if you heard WHY I consider CxT canon. Also please do type out why you think so, I'd love to hear it even if it takes a while.

Wolf Kanno
11-15-2009, 06:35 AM
I sometimes have issues regarding Tifa's romance with Cloud. Cloud always had a crush on her but I feel Tifa only invented her romantic feeling for him in the beginning and it wasn't til the full events of VII that Tifa actually grew to truly love Cloud.

Yet on the flipside, I feel that Cloud's own feelings regarding Tifa have changed when you compare them to his boyhood self. He was utterly infatuated with her but now it seems he can easily find ways to stray from her and close his heart off to her. Even Nojima in the interview seems to imply that Cloud's feelings for Tifa are different. This is not to say that Cloud doesn't care for her or does not have romantic feelings for her but its seems pretty obvious from AC that Tifa is the one actually doing all the work in regards to their relationship. Cloud spends most of it in a daze of guilt and angst.

In regards to Aerith, I also feel the relationship is far more ambiguous than fans of the paring would like you to think. Playing through the game I feel that Aerith is mostly attracted to Cloud due to his similarities to Zack, likewise, Cloud undergoes a personality change once he meets Aerith. Before he met her, he was cold and selfish, being even temperamental and moody with Tifa. Once Aerith appears we finally see Cloud actually relax and joke around a bit and he becomes much more heroic and utilitarian in his thoughts and actions. Where I'm going with this is that I feel Cloud's sudden mood change is a result of the influence of Zack in his personality.

By this notion, I feel that Cloud's original feelings for Aerith are a direct result of the Sephy Clone experiments. Cloud is drawn to Aerith because of the part of him that is Zack just as Aerith is originally drawn to him cause of the part of him that is Zack. Course Cloud's feeling also change as he comes to realize the truth of himself and if you read the dialogue of the date with Aerith, it seems that Aerith figured out the truth behind Cloud as she says "I want to meet you" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6fvjZrYYwU). So I feel Aerith does grow into looking to Cloud as something different from a love interest, a lot of the dialogue she has on the date always gave me the impression that she realized her feelings for Cloud were not true.

Her death does affect Cloud in the long run and I feel it elevates Aerith to something higher in Cloud's mind. She is a person who radically changed his life and a person he failed to save (despite there being no way to save her). Part of it might be from the part of him that is Zack's memories but I feel Aerith had a profound affect on his life and though Cloud may love Tifa, I feel Aerith may be more important to him as she served as a mentor and a figure who dramatically influenced him. This is always how I interpret the problems between Cloud and Tifa, its not that Cloud is hung up on a lost love but rather someone who was dearly important to him.

While Tifa my have finally grown to love Cloud, I feel that Cloud's feelings towards her have changed due to the events of the original game. He's happy to be with someone he cares about but it doesn't stop his sense of loss for Aerith and to a lesser degree Zack. This hinders their relationship, so technically I would say Cloud's relationship with Tifa is hindered by his feelings for Aerith, I just don't believe those feelings are necessarily love.

Shishikabob
11-15-2009, 07:37 AM
I sometimes have issues regarding Tifa's romance with Cloud. Cloud always had a crush on her but I feel Tifa only invented her romantic feeling for him in the beginning and it wasn't til the full events of VII that Tifa actually grew to truly love Cloud.
Yet if we take a look at the Crisis Core Ultimania is states:

Believing in Cloud’s promise, Tifa’s waiting to see Cloud become a SOLDIER like Sephiroth. Tifa dresses herself in a pretty and sexy look. Does she do that to spirit up herself in preparing for a touching reunion?
Why would Tifa dress herself up sexily if she didn't already have feelings for him or begun to have feelings at least. For that matter she asked Cloud to make a promise she then believed in. It's also stated in the lifestream event of FFVII that she began to read the newspapers looking for information about him. So to me it doesn't sound like she invented those feelings later on, she was feeling them after their night at the watertower.


Yet on the flipside, I feel that Cloud's own feelings regarding Tifa have changed when you compare them to his boyhood self. He was utterly infatuated with her but now it seems he can easily find ways to stray from her and close his heart off to her.
In the lifestream event after Tifa says to the younger Cloud that she began looking for information about him in the newspapers he says something along the lines of, "Be sure to tell him that, he'll be happy to hear it." If Cloud's feelings really changed that much, he wouldn't care so much about this. Also I'm sure Cloud wouldn't care so much about just a "friend" reading about him in the newspaper.

Plus the Ultimanias state that the promise he made to Tifa is etched in his heart forever. That sounds pretty important to me :P

And it's been stated that the reason Cloud closed his heart off was because of his guilt. He began to grow happy with Tifa and his family, but he started to become scared that he'd lose that happiness. This is why he began to close himself off to everyone. It was his guilt, not his unhappiness with Tifa or anything of the sort.

Further more this is what FFVII AC/C was about, Cloud healing his guilt so he could live on with his family in a guilt free world. Clearly his heart has reopened to Tifa by the end of the movie and he realizes he's meant to live with her.


Even Nojima in the interview seems to imply that Cloud's feelings for Tifa are different.
How so?


This is not to say that Cloud doesn't care for her or does not have romantic feelings for her but its seems pretty obvious from AC that Tifa is the one actually doing all the work in regards to their relationship. Cloud spends most of it in a daze of guilt and angst.

This isn't true, it wasn't until about 3/4ths of the way through Case of Tifa that Cloud started to feel guilty and close himself off. up until that moment he was truly happy. The creators have stated this on at least 3 occasions. When he found Denzel, he thought this was his chance for redemption and he began to open himself up again. This is stated in the novel... it wasn't until he got geostigma that he thought he was really worthless and shut himself off completely.

Think about this too, Cloud feels responsible for the death of two of his closest friends. That's not exactly something you forget when you get yourself a girlfriend and begin raising a family with her. Plus he goes out looking for a cure for a disease his son has and then contacts the same fatal disease. This means he can't live out Zack's promise so he failed him as well. Their love for one another isn't going to magically just cure all the guilt he feels. I don't even think Disney would go with a story like that.

Plus, Square actually stated Aerith was the only one who could heal his guilt. He needed to hear from her that he was forgiven. That's what happened in AC/C and in the end, Cloud has opened himself once again. This is confirmed by his "I'm not alone, not anymore" line.


In regards to Aerith, I also feel the relationship is far more ambiguous than fans of the paring would like you to think. Playing through the game I feel that Aerith is mostly attracted to Cloud due to his similarities to Zack,
I feel their feelings for one another were genuine at the time. But yes Aerith did overlap Cloud with Zack.

However, Zack did not appear only for the reason as a key to the puzzle. The setting of “Aerith overlaps Cloud with her first love” and Zack as the key character are settled before I joined the team of development.

likewise, Cloud undergoes a personality change once he meets Aerith. Before he met her, he was cold and selfish, being even temperamental and moody with Tifa. Once Aerith appears we finally see Cloud actually relax and joke around a bit and he becomes much more heroic and utilitarian in his thoughts and actions. Where I'm going with this is that I feel Cloud's sudden mood change is a result of the influence of Zack in his personality.
Close but not quite, it was actually a result of Jenova's influence. She wanted Cloud to get close to Aerith so she could eventually kill her.... erm.. I know I've read this somewhere but give me a bit and I'll find a source on that. :P


By this notion, I feel that Cloud's original feelings for Aerith are a direct result of the Sephy Clone experiments. Cloud is drawn to Aerith because of the part of him that is Zack just as Aerith is originally drawn to him cause of the part of him that is Zack. Course Cloud's feeling also change as he comes to realize the truth of himself and if you read the dialogue of the date with Aerith, it seems that Aerith figured out the truth behind Cloud as she says "I want to meet you". So I feel Aerith does grow into looking to Cloud as something different from a love interest, a lot of the dialogue she has on the date always gave me the impression that she realized her feelings for Cloud were not true.
I agree with all of this. But Cloud is drawn to Aerith mostly because of the Jenova inside of him.
Aerith does want to meet the real Cloud, and honestly I think Cloud did love her, not as deeply as he does Tifa though. My interpretation always was that Cloud loved Aerith, but after the lifestream event, he realized who he was meant to be with, who he sought out to be with, and who he's ultimately with.


Her death does affect Cloud in the long run and I feel it elevates Aerith to something higher in Cloud's mind.
I disagree, any time Aerith gets singled out to Cloud it's in relation to the guilt he feels. The only one who's ever been singled out of "mutual feelings" is Tifa.


She is a person who radically changed his life and a person he failed to save (despite there being no way to save her). Part of it might be from the part of him that is Zack's memories but I feel Aerith had a profound affect on his life and though Cloud may love Tifa, I feel Aerith may be more important to him as she served as a mentor and a figure who dramatically influenced him.
And what did Aerith do that was so important? Tifa was the one who literally went inside Cloud's mind to piece his past together so he could find out who he was. They shared their feelings for one another under the highwind and live together.

Not only that but on the subject of the lifestream event, they are in the center of Cloud's brain and, as messed up as it is, the one thing is always constant is that Tifa is always the main focus.


This is always how I interpret the problems between Cloud and Tifa, its not that Cloud is hung up on a lost love but rather someone who was dearly important to him.
I won't deny that Aerith is important, but a love interest she is not. Look at the quote by Nojima I posted, "Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith." To me this indicates they never really had that much of a romance going. Nothing serious anyway, I do think there was love between the two, but their relationship didn't go much beyond that.


While Tifa my have finally grown to love Cloud, I feel that Cloud's feelings towards her have changed due to the events of the original game.
Yep, they're stronger now than ever :monster:

He's happy to be with someone he cares about but it doesn't stop his sense of loss for Aerith and to a lesser degree Zack.
Yet they were put on the same level emotionally in the AC playback book.

This hinders their relationship, so technically I would say Cloud's relationship with Tifa is hindered by his feelings for Aerith, I just don't believe those feelings are necessarily love.
Then permit me to ask what you think the feelings are when they revealed their feelings for each other? Which BTW, is something stated by the creators that they did at least 3 times in the Ultimanias.

and I'm not being offensive am I :(
Just let me know :monster:

BTW whoever voted for Aerith, please post why :P

Melissaur
11-16-2009, 04:59 AM
You make some really great points and as much of a fan as I am n Cloud x Tifa, I still have to say that his love interest was Aeris. I only got the vibe that Tifa was his friend, and even in Advent Children when they were "living" together in the bar, Cloud wasn't there most of the time. And yes he does say something about family in the movie but I don't think he meant it like him and Tifa being romantically involved. Even after all that happened, through-out their child hood, and through Nibelhiem burning, and the game of Final Fantasy 7 itself, Tifa was never more that his one true and closest friend.

I don't really think Cloud was in love either, but I think he had more of a romantic relationship with Aeris than he ever did with Tifa. But Cloud also was the type to not show his true feelings that much. Making this argument really pains me though, cause I was never to fond of AeriaxCloud shizz.

silentenigma
11-16-2009, 06:00 AM
Lulz everyone's going to start arguing this again. It's been awhile.
In the original 1997 game, it appeared that Cloud's love interest was somewhere between "completely ambiguous" and "kinda leaning toward Aeris." However, there really was no definitive pairing and it was meant to be able to go either way. But since 2005 or whatever with the coming of the FFVII: Retcon Edition series, there have been major, if not overwhelming implications towards Tifa being Cloud's love interest.

I still voted Aerith though; mainly due to my love of the original game and my disdain for the compilation, but that's a different story.
So I would suggest reading Squall of Seed's article on the whole subject, then form your own opinion.

Shishikabob
11-16-2009, 09:00 AM
You make some really great points and as much of a fan as I am n Cloud x Tifa, I still have to say that his love interest was Aeris.
Based on what exactly?


I only got the vibe that Tifa was his friend, and even in Advent Children when they were "living" together in the bar, Cloud wasn't there most of the time.
Cloud wasn't there in AC/C because he had left due to his guilt. Look at the quotes I posted. This will give you a better understanding of where Cloud's head was at. I'd also advice you to read Case of Tifa (http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/3820/on-the-way-to-a-smile-case-of-tifa-revised-translation/) as it explains when Cloud left.

Also in the beginning of CoT it's clear that Cloud wants Tifa by his side and it's "different from before."

“Cloud, you’re smiling.”

“I am?”

“Yeah.”

“It all starts now. A new…”

Cloud looked for the right words.

“A new life.”

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”

“That’s right…”

“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”

“Why?”

“Because I’ve always failed everything.”

“That’s not funny.”

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”

“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.
Cloud is talking about having Tifa by his side in a way that's different than before. Keep in mind they shared their mutual feelings for one another under the highwind and it wouldn't make sense for them to be establishing a friendship they already had...

As for him being gone in Advent Children... well yeah... we established that he had left at that point. He ran away so to speak, and it wasn't because of Aerith, it was because of Geostigma as stated more than once in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania:

AC – Midgar
Because he contracted Geostigma, he left Tifa and the children, and began living in the Slum church.
---------------
Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family. However, when Cloud contracts Geostigma he disappears.

Not only that but Cloud specifically states in Advent Children complete that the reason he left was because he felt he couldn't care for anyone let alone himself. So that's why Cloud wasn't in the 7th heaven very often in AC/C. Geostigma.


Even after all that happened, through-out their child hood, and through Nibelhiem burning, and the game of Final Fantasy 7 itself, Tifa was never more that his one true and closest friend.
I disagree and if you look at the texts I think you would too.

You have her and Cloud having memories together related to their future (http://killthemongoose.com/stuff/020.jpg), Cloud and Tifa belonging together (see above), their hearts calling out to each other (in the lifestream), his opening his heart only to her, (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/vilaeth_0/Scan15.jpg) her being the important woman to him and mother of the family they were forming (See above), him being the father in Tifa's eyes (case of Tifa), Cloud being Tifa's lover interest (Ultmania Omega), the risque implication of the night under the highwind, (http://i20.:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:/2ilu1h.jpg) and most important them sharing their feelings for each other. Have you ever known that statement to be non romantic?


I don't really think Cloud was in love either, but I think he had more of a romantic relationship with Aeris than he ever did with Tifa.
Again, what are you basing this on? I'd like to hear it.


But Cloud also was the type to not show his true feelings that much. Making this argument really pains me though, cause I was never to fond of AeriaxCloud shizz.
I like the pairing as fanon but when you have all the information I listed above plus Nojima speaking of love, marriage and family in the context of Cloud and Tifa, I think it's obvious who the canon couple is.


In the original 1997 game, it appeared that Cloud's love interest was somewhere between "completely ambiguous" and "kinda leaning toward Aeris."
Is anyone going to tell me why they say this XD

And could you please tell me what retcons you're referring to? I did not see any, but yes I agree SoS's essay on the subject was excellent. He really knows his stuff.


But since 2005 or whatever with the coming of the FFVII: Retcon Edition series, there have been major, if not overwhelming implications towards Tifa being Cloud's love interest.
I concur.
I look forward to hearing back from you and Melissaur.

Raistlin
11-16-2009, 05:36 PM
I say Tifa... just because I don't like Aerith. Any feelings between Tifa and Cloud are ambiguous, certainly, but I felt Tifa's was far more genuine than Aerith's.

Then again, I'm not too fond of Cloud either, so maybe they deserve each other.

Flying Mullet
11-16-2009, 05:39 PM
I don't see Mukki in that poll! :aimmad:

NeoCracker
11-16-2009, 05:45 PM
Who not give all the women to Cid? That awesome bastard deserves a few rolls in the hay with multiple women.

It may not be love, but who the hell would love the FF VII women?

Melissaur
11-16-2009, 05:52 PM
!win You make a very good point. I'd much rather have Cid than Cloud any day of the week!

PeneloRatsbane
11-16-2009, 07:41 PM
he loved Aeris but she died, Tifa is a great friend to him and they have a chance at a happy relationship together. It's simple, a person can often love more than one person

Rantz
11-16-2009, 07:44 PM
PeneloRatsbane has it. :monster:

Flying Mullet
11-16-2009, 08:26 PM
Cloud's just a typical dude. The chick he's into dies and then he's chasing the next girl that's available.

Shishikabob
11-16-2009, 10:25 PM
I say Tifa... just because I don't like Aerith. Any feelings between Tifa and Cloud are ambiguous, certainly, but I felt Tifa's was far more genuine than Aerith's.
I dunno, I don't like Roxas much but I ship AkuRoku like mad. How are the feelings between Tifa and Cloud ambiguous exactly? How does two people sharing their mutual feelings for one another and living together and raising children make their feelings ambiguous?


I don't see Mukki in that poll!
Then it'd be a love rectangle XD


It may not be love, but who the hell would love the FF VII women?
Me? :( *hugs Yuffie*


!win You make a very good point. I'd much rather have Cid than Cloud any day of the week!
I take you not responding to my response to you as you agreeing. Glad you think CxT is canon now :monster:


Cloud doesn't love Tifa neither Aerith.
Your basis?


he loved Aeris but she died, Tifa is a great friend to him and they have a chance at a happy relationship together. It's simple, a person can often love more than one person
I agree on the last bit but what makes you think Tifa is just a friend?


Cloud's just a typical dude. The chick he's into dies and then he's chasing the next girl that's available.
So true, so true XD

Zeromus
11-16-2009, 10:50 PM
Actually, Cloud is a schizophrenic male chauvinist who hits the girls... I'm not sure if a man like that can feel love ;D ... (And I'm not feminist!)

But, trying to answer the question, I don't think he loves one of them... With Aerith the relationship was to short... I really don't believe in love at first sight or in loving someone when you are starting to know her/him, that's just liking her/him... I think love require years ...
He only feels regret for not saving her... which is normal in a case like this even if you don't feel love...

But I don't think he loves Tifa instead, cause I think that the same regret of losing Aerith without saving her or asking her pardon for hitting her, don't let him feel love... And well, she is just a friend of him, and a friend who will be more happy having a life with Barret than with him... Barret won't hit her... :B


//Sorry, I never liked Cloud xd

Shishikabob
11-16-2009, 11:14 PM
But I don't think he loves Tifa instead, cause I think that the same regret of losing Aerith without saving her or asking her pardon for hitting her, don't let him feel love... And well, she is just a friend of him, and a friend who will be more happy having a life with Barret than with him... Barret won't hit her... :B


//Sorry, I never liked Cloud xd
Ill quote what I said before:

You have her and Cloud having memories together related to their future (http://killthemongoose.com/stuff/020.jpg), Cloud and Tifa belonging together (See first post), their hearts calling out to each other (in the lifestream), his opening his heart only to her, (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/vilaeth_0/Scan15.jpg) her being the important woman to him and mother of the family they were forming (See first post), him being the father in Tifa's eyes (case of Tifa), Cloud being Tifa's love interest (Ultmania Omega), the risque implication of the night under the highwind, (http://i20.:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:/2ilu1h.jpg) and most important them sharing their feelings for each other. Have you ever known that statement to be non romantic?

:monster:

EDIT:
you know maybe I threw too much info out at once... okay let's start over...
I think Cloud loves Tifa because they shared their feelings for each other under the highwind, and live together and raise a family. How about you? :D

Melissaur
11-17-2009, 12:24 AM
no I don't agree but I don't really see a point in this to any of this. I don't like Cloud that much, and I'm not fond of Aeris, where as Tifa is my favorite Final Fantasy character. And like people have posted I don't really think Cloud was romantically interested any anyone, but that's just by the type of "guy" he came off as in the game. So I think love, or whatever, was the last thing on his mind. But this is all opinion to me, so whatever.

Shishikabob
11-17-2009, 12:39 AM
no I don't agree but I don't really see a point in this to any of this.
Lol, sorry I was just giving you crap :monster: (That's how I say I care :D)

It's just when I see people saying things are a certain ways and the official sources and the creators have stated otherwise, I want to know why you say that. I guess I'm trying to go on fact here and not opinion. Maybe that's my problem though.

Also since it was brought. Here's Squall of Seed's essay on the love triangle. It really shows that there IS a definite answer and compares and contrasts a lot of points on the whole debate. It's worth a read:
GameFAQs: Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children (PSP) Plot Analysis by Squall_of_SeeD (http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/psp/file/920785/39217)
(5) Who is Cloud in love with? [5.235In])

Wolf Kanno
11-17-2009, 07:55 AM
Yet if we take a look at the Crisis Core Ultimania is states:

Believing in Clouds promise, Tifas waiting to see Cloud become a SOLDIER like Sephiroth. Tifa dresses herself in a pretty and sexy look. Does she do that to spirit up herself in preparing for a touching reunion?

There's a logical error in all this though. When we see the flashback of Cloud's childhood in the original game before the promise at the water tower, we learn that Tifa never really knew Cloud intimately nor did she even care to know. Clouds whole purpose in joining SOLDIER was to become stronger and to get Tifa to notice him. The original game also states that Tifa did in fact wait to hear about Cloud but its never really stated why she suddenly cared when her whole conversation with Cloud in their childhood basically starts with her wondering why he called her out to talk and basically getting to know him in a sense.

There is no real starting point to say why Tifa fell in love with Cloud. She doesn't remember the MT. Nibel incident as she wasn't aware that Cloud was even following her or that he fell too. So we can't use that as a starting point, especially sense the adults blame Cloud for it.

This is why I feel Tifa didn't really fall in love with Cloud until the events of VII. Until then it was probably just a silly girlish fantasy.


Why would Tifa dress herself up sexily if she didn't already have feelings for him or begun to have feelings at least. For that matter she asked Cloud to make a promise she then believed in. It's also stated in the lifestream event of FFVII that she began to read the newspapers looking for information about him. So to me it doesn't sound like she invented those feelings later on, she was feeling them after their night at the watertower.I wouldn't call the cowboy outfit sexy nor her miniskirt/hultertop combo either. :p

As stated before, I feel that the foundation of their relationship is compromised by the revelation that they never really talked before the water tower scene. Tifa's feeling from a literary standpoint are very shaky at best. I don't know too many girls who would fall head over heels over a silly childhood promise despite how much television and movies make us want to believe.


In the lifestream event after Tifa says to the younger Cloud that she began looking for information about him in the newspapers he says something along the lines of, "Be sure to tell him that, he'll be happy to hear it." If Cloud's feelings really changed that much, he wouldn't care so much about this. Also I'm sure Cloud wouldn't care so much about just a "friend" reading about him in the newspaper.

Plus the Ultimanias state that the promise he made to Tifa is etched in his heart forever. That sounds pretty important to me :PI never said that Cloud wan't in love with Tifa, I only said that I feel the foundation has changed as Cloud originally pursued Tifa who was oblivious of him at first. By the time of AC Cloud is sorting through his feelings and his own needs while Tifa struggles to keep their relationship working. I feel Cloud does care for Tifa, but I don't think the passion is there like it was when he was a boy. Its obvious that Tifa is sustaining the relationship that Cloud inconsiderately compromises with his own insecurities.


And it's been stated that the reason Cloud closed his heart off was because of his guilt. He began to grow happy with Tifa and his family, but he started to become scared that he'd lose that happiness. This is why he began to close himself off to everyone. It was his guilt, not his unhappiness with Tifa or anything of the sort. It is Cloud's guilt but technically its a guilt shared by the whole party since they were all probably there when she died. Granted, Cloud may have chosen to not open up to a fellow participant of this incident because it was Aerith and Cloud didn't want to create a misunderstanding about where he stood about his feelings for her.



Even Nojima in the interview seems to imply that Cloud's feelings for Tifa are different.How so?

"First, theres the premise that things arent going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I dont mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family..." ~ NojimaCloud only truly dropped into depression because of what Geostigma was doing. Nojima here is saying their relationship is having issues and it goes beyond that. Cloud only begins to feel his overwhelming guilt because of Denzel and the fact that he was dying.

Once again though, I'm not saying Cloud doesn't love her, only that his romantic feelings for her are obviously not as strong as her feeling's for him. This is actually quite normal in a relationship.


This isn't true, it wasn't until about 3/4ths of the way through Case of Tifa that Cloud started to feel guilty and close himself off. up until that moment he was truly happy. The creators have stated this on at least 3 occasions. When he found Denzel, he thought this was his chance for redemption and he began to open himself up again. This is stated in the novel... it wasn't until he got geostigma that he thought he was really worthless and shut himself off completely.I said by AC, I never said he was like that from the end of VII. By AC he has Geostigma and angst. His relationship is having minor issues by this point and he's separating himself from all his friends and his makeshift family. Cloud is accepting his disease as divine punishment and its Tifa who is struggling to put their family back together despite half of them slowly dying from an incurable disease. I'd say I nailed it on the head there that AC is Tifa trying to hold onto the relationship.



Think about this too, Cloud feels responsible for the death of two of his closest friends. That's not exactly something you forget when you get yourself a girlfriend and begin raising a family with her. Plus he goes out looking for a cure for a disease his son has and then contacts the same fatal disease. This means he can't live out Zack's promise so he failed him as well. Their love for one another isn't going to magically just cure all the guilt he feels. I don't even think Disney would go with a story like that.While I would argue there is no probable evidence suggesting Cloud dying is making him feel guilty about Zack, this also brings up another inconsistency of the story and one of the reasons why I believe Aerith holds a special place in Cloud's heart.

Aerith died, but its not like Cloud was the only one there. The rest of the party doesn't seem to be hung up on the death of a comrade like Cloud, who is beating himself over it two years after he supposedly made peace with it. Only Cloud feels guilty. Tifa may hold a tinge of guilt, only cause she was jealous of her and Cloud holding onto her memory tends to get the most emotional reaction from her in the film. Everyone else has moved on, only Cloud chooses to blame himself for the events despite there being nothing he can do to save her. He technically saved Aerith from the first murder attempt when Sephy took over his mind to have him do it.

His guilt is self-inflicted and horribly misplaced, even concerning Zack's death and his charade as being like him, there was little Cloud could do in that situation. Cloud himself has his own personal demons and this is what is obviously causing the rifts in the relationship. Not so much his guilt, but his in-ability to move out of the past. He has a very negative form of thinking.


Plus, Square actually stated Aerith was the only one who could heal his guilt. He needed to hear from her that he was forgiven. That's what happened in AC/C and in the end, Cloud has opened himself once again. This is confirmed by his "I'm not alone, not anymore" line.This is partly why I feel Aerith was important to Cloud. She was more than a friend and comrade to him. Not a romantic figure but someone who did mean a lot to him.



Close but not quite, it was actually a result of Jenova's influence. She wanted Cloud to get close to Aerith so she could eventually kill her.... erm.. I know I've read this somewhere but give me a bit and I'll find a source on that. :PUnlikely, its stated in the Ultimania that JENOVA is brain dead and she is controlled through the will of Sephiroth. Even by just changing it to Sephy wanting her dead, he doesn't actually bother trying to kill her til she gets the idea to summon Holy.

I doubt Sephiroth thought she was a threat until she came to the Forgotten City. I feel the closest JENOVA got to influence Cloud was by making him believe he was Zack which is where I feel their relationship has its foundation in.


I agree with all of this. But Cloud is drawn to Aerith mostly because of the Jenova inside of him.
Aerith does want to meet the real Cloud, and honestly I think Cloud did love her, not as deeply as he does Tifa though. My interpretation always was that Cloud loved Aerith, but after the Lifestream event, he realized who he was meant to be with, who he sought out to be with, and who he's ultimately with.Its debatable how strong his feelings were towards Aerith but I agree he realizes Tifa is the one he cares for after the Lifestream event.


I disagree, any time Aerith gets singled out to Cloud it's in relation to the guilt he feels. The only one who's ever been singled out of "mutual feelings" is Tifa.I'm not implying love though, more like reverence or at least a high level of respect. Its two different categories in my mind. He loves Tifa but Aerith is also equally important if not more despite him having no romantic feelings. Her death placed her there.


And what did Aerith do that was so important? Tifa was the one who literally went inside Cloud's mind to piece his past together so he could find out who he was. They shared their feelings for one another under the highwind and live together. I feel Aerith was the one that began to draw the real Cloud out. She was the one who first gave him purpose beyond living a pseudo mercenary lifestyle. He helped Tifa fight Shin-Ra out of obligation but he still distanced himself from it. It was when Aerith arrived and got involved that Cloud began to fight for a higher purpose. Course it gets lost once Sephiroth appears on the scene and the Reunion begins but before then, Aerith awoken up a part of Cloud when she woke up the part that was Zack.

I think part of it also stems from the fact that Aerith is more of an ideal woman for Cloud. She is strong of heart and spirit, yet she is also someone who needs protection. Tifa grew up and no longer really needed the protector that Cloud promised to be, Aerith on the other hand needed a protector. Tifa's role in VII is overshadowed by Aerith once she is introduced and Tifa only begins to return to the forefront of Cloud's mind once Aerith is gone. Even then, Aerith still supplied reason for Cloud to go on.

Yes, he was saving the planet and getting revenge; but he was also doing it to fulfill Aerith's final wish before she died. He always mentions Aerith throughout the second and third disc in this regard, and its hardly in a guilt manner but he was trying to settle the final business of a dead comrade. Even in the end, Cloud believes that Aerith is still there watching and helping them. It is Aerith who is implied to be helping Cloud after his final encounter with Sephiroth in the Lifestream. The man is clearly obsessed in some form and it goes beyond the influence of the Sephiroth Clone experiments.

To be honest, I partially blame Tifa for the Lifestream event, had she been more honest to Cloud in the beginning about his memories, Cloud may have been able to avoid several problems that occured in the course of the game.



Not only that but on the subject of the lifestream event, they are in the center of Cloud's brain and, as messed up as it is, the one thing is always constant is that Tifa is always the main focus.This is because the focus of the Lifestream event was Cloud trying to find himself. Cloud is trying to figure out what parts of his memories were real and which were fake and this of course leads him back to his childhood where Tifa is predominate. We learn that Cloud had a crush on her and that is why he joined SOLDIER and we also learn he was too embarrassed to face her which is why she never knew he was actually there. But the focus here is Cloud trying to seperate the memories he actually knew cause they were his and the ones he took from Zack. Tifa, being there to help him sort it out would also probably cause Cloud to think more of her.

The point is, his feeling for Aerith are not important to the discovery of his true self, that is why Aerith would not likely show up in the event.


I won't deny that Aerith is important, but a love interest she is not. Look at the quote by Nojima I posted, "Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith." To me this indicates they never really had that much of a romance going. Nothing serious anyway, I do think there was love between the two, but their relationship didn't go much beyond that.Their relationship did partially change though, Aerith seems to watch Cloud from the Lifestream acting like a guardian angel or surrogate mother while Cloud still holds onto her memory, both with admiration (VII Disc 2 and 3) and with guilt and regret (AC). He's quick to believe that Aerith is responsible for sending them Denzel which is something that seems to irritate Tifa a bit.



He's happy to be with someone he cares about but it doesn't stop his sense of loss for Aerith and to a lesser degree Zack. Yet they were put on the same level emotionally in the AC playback book.Except Zack is sort of a footnote in AC itself. He only appears twice, once symbolically as a wolf and the other time in person with Aerith. Aerith on the other hand appears five times, twice symbolically as healing water and three times in her true form. Its Aerith's hand that helps Cloud reach Bahamut Shin. Even still, I feel Cloud does deeply care about Zack as well, probably on the ame level as Aerith.



This hinders their relationship, so technically I would say Cloud's relationship with Tifa is hindered by his feelings for Aerith, I just don't believe those feelings are necessarily love.Then permit me to ask what you think the feelings are when they revealed their feelings for each other? Which BTW, is something stated by the creators that they did at least 3 times in the Ultimanias.
[/QUOTE]

As I said, I feel Aerith is like a loving mentor who helped open Cloud up in the first half of VII. Her memory drives him for the rest of the game and he is still thinking of her both positively (novels) and negatively (AC). I think Aerith is more like an ideal to Cloud, a way of thinking and motivation that is counter to his personal self defeating attitude. Its difficult to describe really, its not romantic but I would almost say it transcends the myth of romantic love that he has for Tifa at times.

Shishikabob
11-17-2009, 09:05 AM
There's a logical error in all this though. When we see the flashback of Cloud's childhood in the original game before the promise at the water tower, we learn that Tifa never really knew Cloud intimately nor did she even care to know.
When did Tifa say, or even ACT like she didn't care? She didn't know Cloud that well, true, this is what she said. But as soon as Cloud talked to Tifa, she opened herself right up to him. If she really didn't care, she wouldn't have shown up at all. She even asked him to make a promise to save her if she was in trouble. Sounds to me like right off the bat that she'd wanted something more from Cloud than just friendship.


Clouds whole purpose in joining SOLDIER was to become stronger and to get Tifa to notice him. The original game also states that Tifa did in fact wait to hear about Cloud but its never really stated why she suddenly cared when her whole conversation with Cloud in their childhood basically starts with her wondering why he called her out to talk and basically getting to know him in a sense.
Cloud had several months before he actual left and since it's been stated on MANY occasions that she and Cloud were childhood friends, it stands to reason that they got to know each other a bit before he left.


There is no real starting point to say why Tifa fell in love with Cloud. She doesn't remember the MT. Nibel incident as she wasn't aware that Cloud was even following her or that he fell too. So we can't use that as a starting point, especially sense the adults blame Cloud for it.
Uhm okay... I think it's safe to assume that Tifa fell for Cloud sometime between the water tower promise scene and when he left. I mean she DID start looking for him in the newspapers right away. Clearly she had taken notice.


This is why I feel Tifa didn't really fall in love with Cloud until the events of VII. Until then it was probably just a silly girlish fantasy.
Maybe but the way she prepared herself for when he was coming back and how disappointed she was when he didn't show up... I think there was some love there... and how can you not think that outfit is sexy? :p I think it's VERY sexy as to the people who wrote the Ultimania


As stated before, I feel that the foundation of their relationship is compromised by the revelation that they never really talked before the water tower scene. Tifa's feeling from a literary standpoint are very shaky at best. I don't know too many girls who would fall head over heels over a silly childhood promise despite how much television and movies make us want to believe.
But it's NOT a silly childhood promise. It's forever engraved in Cloud's heart and they reference it several times in the compilation. (Like the you're late and the sorry I'm late scenes) It's obviously not silly to them.


I never said that Cloud wan't in love with Tifa, I only said that I feel the foundation has changed as Cloud originally pursued Tifa who was oblivious of him at first.
Once again, Tifa was NOT oblivious to him. She obviously got to know him some before he left or else they wouldn't be called childhood friends.


. Its obvious that Tifa is sustaining the relationship that Cloud inconsiderately compromises with his own insecurities.
You make it sound like Cloud didn't have a right to be upset in AC/C. He feels responsible for the death of two people very dear to him. He blows his one shot at redemption by contacting a fatal illness that he was trying to find a cure for. His son is dying and there's nothing he can do about it. I think Cloud has a right to feel insecure at this moment.


It is Cloud's guilt but technically its a guilt shared by the whole party since they were all probably there when she died.
And who is standing there, right in front of her, when she dies? Cloud. No one else... but Cloud. So of COURSE he feels the most responsible. I'm sure they all feel bad, but Cloud was the ONLY one in a position to stop it and he failed.


Granted, Cloud may have chosen to not open up to a fellow participant of this incident because it was Aerith and Cloud didn't want to create a misunderstanding about where he stood about his feelings for her.
lol... what? O_o;


Cloud only truly dropped into depression because of what Geostigma was doing. Nojima here is saying their relationship is having issues and it goes beyond that. Cloud only begins to feel his overwhelming guilt because of Denzel and the fact that he was dying.
No, that's not what Nojima said. He said Cloud and Tifa would have had problems even WITHOUT Geostigma. Cloud was obviously in a depression before Geostigma. In Case of Tifa, Cloud began to be depressed after he took the flowers to the Forgotten City. Probably because it reminded him of Aerith and how he failed to protect her.


Once again though, I'm not saying Cloud doesn't love her, only that his romantic feelings for her are obviously not as strong as her feeling's for him. This is actually quite normal in a relationship.
Okay that's fine. But if you're acknowledging that they're in a relationship, then you must feel that the love triangle is no longer up in the air, right?


Cloud is accepting his disease as divine punishment and its Tifa who is struggling to put their family back together despite half of them slowly dying from an incurable disease. I'd say I nailed it on the head there that AC is Tifa trying to hold onto the relationship.
That makes it sound like Cloud wanted to die and I doubt this was true. If he accepted his disease, he would have no problem returning home to his family and Tifa. He was ashamed of his disease, ashamed at not being able to save Denzel. That's why he took off. He couldn't care for himself, let alone anyone else, this is what he says in Advent Children Complete.


While I would argue there is no probable evidence suggesting Cloud dying is making him feel guilty about Zack
He stays in Advent Children AND Advent Children Complete, I said I'd live out both our lives... easy to make that promise. I tried... But I... obviously he regrets not being able to do this and feels guilty about it.


this also brings up another inconsistency of the story and one of the reasons why I believe Aerith holds a special place in Cloud's heart.
What inconsistency?


Aerith died, but its not like Cloud was the only one there. The rest of the party doesn't seem to be hung up on the death of a comrade like Cloud, who is beating himself over it two years after he supposedly made peace with it. Only Cloud feels guilty.
See what I wrote above about this. He was the only one there who could have done anything and he failed and HE was HER bodyguard. He failed her plain and simple, that's why he feels guilt.


Tifa may hold a tinge of guilt, only cause she was jealous of her and Cloud holding onto her memory tends to get the most emotional reaction from her in the film.
The Reunion Files say that line of Which is it, a memory or us? was referring to Sephiroth, not Aerith.


Everyone else has moved on, only Cloud chooses to blame himself for the events despite there being nothing he can do to save her. He technically saved Aerith from the first murder attempt when Sephy took over his mind to have him do it.

While it's true Cloud shouldn't be as hard on himself as he is, I think he has a right to feel guilty and not forgive himself.


His guilt is self-inflicted and horribly misplaced, even concerning Zack's death and his charade as being like him, there was little Cloud could do in that situation. Cloud himself has his own personal demons and this is what is obviously causing the rifts in the relationship. Not so much his guilt, but his in-ability to move out of the past. He has a very negative form of thinking.
I agree to some extent but again, I think Cloud had a right to be feeling like this in the film.


This is partly why I feel Aerith was important to Cloud. She was more than a friend and comrade to him. Not a romantic figure but someone who did mean a lot to him.
I agree.


Unlikely, its stated in the Ultimania that JENOVA is brain dead and she is controlled through the will of Sephiroth.
Wha? I don't think they ever said she was brain dead but she IS being manipulated by Sephiroth. Honestly it's weird, they have said sephiroth was in control. but then there's times where they seem to treat jenova as if its will is still in play to some extent


I'm not implying love though, more like reverence or at least a high level of respect. Its two different categories in my mind. He loves Tifa but Aerith is also equally important if not more despite him having no romantic feelings. Her death placed her there.
Do you have a source on this, or is it just your opinion? The sources have never put Aerith on a higher level than Tifa. In fact, it's always the other way around.


I feel Aerith was the one that began to draw the real Cloud out. She was the one who first gave him purpose beyond living a pseudo mercenary lifestyle. He helped Tifa fight Shin-Ra out of obligation but he still distanced himself from it. It was when Aerith arrived and got involved that Cloud began to fight for a higher purpose. Course it gets lost once Sephiroth appears on the scene and the Reunion begins but before then, Aerith awoken up a part of Cloud when she woke up the part that was Zack.
No, she woke up the Zack in Cloud and that's all she woke up. It was NOT the real Cloud. The ONLY person who woke the normal Cloud up was Tifa in the Lifestream Event. Pus she was the one who woke him from his state at the train station.

This ability is not limited solely to Jenova itself, for those who have its
cells within them possess it as well, though in an incomplete form.
Immediately prior to the start of the game, when Cloud's mind was shattered,
he ran into Tifa and seemed to immediately return to "normal" seeing her memories of him, which were then combined with his own ideal
vision of himself, fashioning a new personality for him.


I think part of it also stems from the fact that Aerith is more of an ideal woman for Cloud. She is strong of heart and spirit, yet she is also someone who needs protection. Tifa grew up and no longer really needed the protector that Cloud promised to be, Aerith on the other hand needed a protector. Tifa's role in VII is overshadowed by Aerith once she is introduced and Tifa only begins to return to the forefront of Cloud's mind once Aerith is gone. Even then, Aerith still supplied reason for Cloud to go on.
Again this is your opinion. I don't feel Aerith was an ideal love for Cloud and the creators don't seem to think that either. Tifa DOES still need Cloud. She got the snot kicked out of her by Loz, did she not? He rescued her from falling debris in Advent Children Complete as well. So, no she does still need him as a protector. And I'd also like to point out that Cloud didn't even WANT to go after Aerith when she went to the forgotten city, but the others talked him into it.


Yes, he was saving the planet and getting revenge; but he was also doing it to fulfill Aerith's final wish before she died. He always mentions Aerith throughout the second and third disc in this regard, and its hardly in a guilt manner but he was trying to settle the final business of a dead comrade.
Yes, I agree


Even in the end, Cloud believes that Aerith is still there watching and helping them. It is Aerith who is implied to be helping Cloud after his final encounter with Sephiroth in the Lifestream. The man is clearly obsessed in some form and it goes beyond the influence of the Sephiroth Clone experiments.
Cloud is not obsessed with Aerith. This is your opinion. And it was TIFA'S hand that was reaching for Cloud, not Aerith's.


To be honest, I partially blame Tifa for the Lifestream event, had she been more honest to Cloud in the beginning about his memories, Cloud may have been able to avoid several problems that occured in the course of the game.
And what happened when Cloud was told the truth? He went fricken nuts and gave Sephiroth the black materia. Keep in mind Cloud knew stuff he shouldn't have known so Tifa didn't know if her own memories were screwed up or what. She didn't know what was going on and thus didn't know how to act. Even if she had told him sooner, it would only have made the inevitable happen sooner.


The point is, his feeling for Aerith are not important to the discovery of his true self, that is why Aerith would not likely show up in the event.

I see your point but you're removing Tifa from the equation. Those "tender memories" and "A secret wish no one else can know" were related to Tifa. Thats not isolated to Cloud and Cloud alone. Those feelings are for Tifa now.


Their relationship did partially change though, Aerith seems to watch Cloud from the Lifestream acting like a guardian angel or surrogate mother while Cloud still holds onto her memory, both with admiration (VII Disc 2 and 3) and with guilt and regret (AC). He's quick to believe that Aerith is responsible for sending them Denzel which is something that seems to irritate Tifa a bit.
I don't remember Tifa being irritated here at all. I remember her saying She brought Denzel to our home and Cloud smiled. Can you please post where Tifa was irritated. Maybe the translation I read was different than yours.


Except Zack is sort of a footnote in AC itself. He only appears twice, once symbolically as a wolf and the other time in person with Aerith. Aerith on the other hand appears five times, twice symbolically as healing water and three times in her true form. Its Aerith's hand that helps Cloud reach Bahamut Shin. Even still, I feel Cloud does deeply care about Zack as well, probably on the ame level as Aerith.
No no, Zack was NOT the wolf. The wolf represents Cloud's guilt (reunion files, pg. 86) and the healing water is NOT Aerith. If you're referring to the scene where Cloud and Tifa were unconscious in the church, it was stated in the Reunion Files that they healed by themselves, Aerith was NOT there. Also Zack got another huge appearance in advent Children Complete which I guess you haven't seen. I highly suggest you see it because it clears up a bit about the love triangle like Cloud STATING why he left 7th heaven.


As I said, I feel Aerith is like a loving mentor who helped open Cloud up in the first half of VII. Her memory drives him for the rest of the game and he is still thinking of her both positively (novels) and negatively (AC). I think Aerith is more like an ideal to Cloud, a way of thinking and motivation that is counter to his personal self defeating attitude. Its difficult to describe really, its not romantic but I would almost say it transcends the myth of romantic love that he has for Tifa at times.
I do agree that Aerith is important, but the official sources have not ever stated that she's more important than Tifa in any way to Cloud. Even in the quote that says Aerith is engraved in Cloud's heart, it also says she lives on in the hearts of everyone else at Avalanche. If Aerith really does mean more to Cloud than Tifa, they're doing a very poor job of showing it.

The Man
11-17-2009, 10:20 AM
It's Tifa. The fact that this is even still debated utterly baffles me.

Shishikabob
11-17-2009, 10:24 AM
OMG AARON! Hi I didn't know you were here :D
sup?..

I mean... yes... yes Tifa XD I concur

The Man
11-17-2009, 10:25 AM
I wasn't until today; I'd taken a hiatus from this place for like a year due to having too many other forums to keep up with. Then TLS started to suck and I got bored without a really active FF forum so now I'm back.

Shishikabob
11-17-2009, 10:28 AM
Well welcome back... I was going to start posting at FCF but... I was afraid that I kinda blew it when I stood up for Tres like that... so I thought I'd keep a low profile :monster: Any points you'd like to add to the debate?

The Man
11-17-2009, 10:35 AM
I honestly don't care enough about the debate to bother arguing it; I think you're doing a fine enough job by yourself. And I don't think anyone on FCF cares about you standing up for Tres; if you'd stood up for the rest of the staff they might have had more of an issue about it, but Tres was the only one who came out of that whole ordeal actually looking any good :monster:

ReloadPsi
11-17-2009, 12:31 PM
After playing Dissidia as briefly as I did, it's clear that neither of them can tell that whiny prick a reason to fight, so it's hard to see any reason for either to interest him.

Loony BoB
11-17-2009, 01:24 PM
Tifa. I don't recall any romantic moments between Aeris and Cloud. Maybe some deep moments but certainly nothing romantic. Tifa reacts angrily when some slutty bird comes in and hits on her man, but sluttiness is not love at all. And Aeris is slutty. Anyone who would act the way she did around Cloud in the real world after only knowing them for that short a time would be called a slut by a lot of people. She also had it in for Zack, of course, but was probably willing to sleep with Cloud 'cause they were in the same crew that one time. Total slut actions. What a whore.

Tifa, on the other hand, acts exactly like a romantic lover would throughout. She stares at the stars with him, talks about the past and the future, and, you know, clearly gets it on when they're around the crater thing.

And really - really - you don't buy flowers from a girl you love and give them to a girl you don't love. That's just stupid. I mean, Cloud is stupid, but he's not that thick.

Christmas
11-17-2009, 01:35 PM
Yuffie dun have a chance? :(

Flying Mullet
11-17-2009, 01:52 PM
Yuffie dun have a chance? :(
No. :colbert:

Christmas
11-17-2009, 01:54 PM
Well, I doubt your favorite Barret have a chance either! :mad2:

Zeromus
11-17-2009, 07:34 PM
Tifa. I don't recall any romantic moments between Aeris and Cloud. Maybe some deep moments but certainly nothing romantic. Tifa reacts angrily when some slutty bird comes in and hits on her man, but sluttiness is not love at all. And Aeris is slutty. Anyone who would act the way she did around Cloud in the real world after only knowing them for that short a time would be called a slut by a lot of people. She also had it in for Zack, of course, but was probably willing to sleep with Cloud 'cause they were in the same crew that one time. Total slut actions. What a whore.

Tifa, on the other hand, acts exactly like a romantic lover would throughout. She stares at the stars with him, talks about the past and the future, and, you know, clearly gets it on when they're around the crater thing.

I agree with you!
I think that is the good and simple way to explain things!
But I want to add something... Staring at the starts and talking about past and future with someone does not necessary mean loving him/her... I think you can do this with friends too...


You have her and Cloud having memories together related to their future (http://killthemongoose.com/stuff/020.jpg), Cloud and Tifa belonging together (See first post), their hearts calling out to each other (in the lifestream), his opening his heart only to her, (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/vilaeth_0/Scan15.jpg) her being the important woman to him and mother of the family they were forming (See first post), him being the father in Tifa's eyes (case of Tifa), Cloud being Tifa's love interest (Ultmania Omega), the risque implication of the night under the highwind, (http://i20.:bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou::bou:/2ilu1h.jpg) and most important them sharing their feelings for each other. Have you ever known that statement to be non romantic?

As I said, I believe you can share your feelings with someone and talk about the future with him/her, and having a lot of memories of the past, and even live some situations that could be named as romantic by others with someone and just be friends with him/her... =/
I mean, I have friends like that, the ones I use to share a lot of feelings and things of my life with them, and we usually make plans for the future (I can even remember we have talked more than once about living together for working or studying, the reasons doesn't matter)... I have also been in situations that someone could call romantic with some of them (alone), like watching the dusk in a beach and things like that, but I only have a friend relationship with them and we won't have something more than friends love... We could Never have something more! D:!
Or it's just that I, as Zeromus (Zemus Hatred), can't feel love? XD
I don't believe it ;D ... :P

But well, the point is that I think Tifa can really have a love relationship with Barret more than with Cloud, and having all those memories and situations with him are not proof of Cloud loving her... Cause as Cloud common quote says: he will probably be "not interested"...
Maybe Tifa loves him, but Cloud loving her? I don't believe it...



I think Cloud loves Tifa because they shared their feelings for each other under the highwind, and live together and raise a family. How about you? :D

And I don't remember Tifa and Cloud raising a family =/ ...please tell me If I'm wrong, but I remember them sharing life moments (Maybe living sometime with Cloud, but Cloud later moved to the church when he had Geostigma) and taking care of kids, but it was Barret there too =/...(FF7:AC)...Please tell me if I'm wrong, I never liked FF7 so much...


It's just when I see people saying things are a certain ways and the official sources and the creators have stated otherwise, I want to know why you say that. I guess I'm trying to go on fact here and not opinion. Maybe that's my problem though.

I really think there is a difference between things the creator or designers of something want to put on it, and the final results of it...
Maybe they really wanted to make a love triangle for the story, but I think the result was a little different to what they maybe wanted because the final product didn't make a lot of us get that impression...


I really think we are talking too much about something not that important... :roll2

Loony BoB
11-17-2009, 07:40 PM
You can do that without being lovers. But you can put your penis into someone's vagina without being lovers, too. Staring at the stars and saying the things that Cloud and Tifa were saying is romantic. Talking about the past/future in the way they were doing such things was further showing how close they are.

EDIT: As for what Cloud feels, a lot of what he says is dictated by the player. They basically set it out a fair bit so you can get your own emotional attachments to other characters, to feel as if you are Cloud. I'm not saying he had zero personality, but I am saying that you could make Cloud be a dick to Tifa or you could make him flirt with Tifa. Basically, Cloud might feel emotions but in the original game they are significantly impacted by the player.

As for him having zero emotions, I won't believe that. I don't show my emotions to my girlfriend all the time but that doesn't mean I don't love her all the time. There is no set definition of love, either, so how Cloud experiences it and/or shows it is purely speculative. Given that this is a Final Fantasy story, though, I would certainly not go as far as to say that he "can't love" or "doesn't love".

EDIT: As for the kids, Barret wasn't there nearly as much as Tifa and Cloud, who lived together and took care of kids, although I do not believe they were their own. I don't think Barret worked with Cloud/Tifa, nor were they part of the household.

Shishikabob
11-17-2009, 11:49 PM
Tifa. I don't recall any romantic moments between Aeris and Cloud. Maybe some deep moments but certainly nothing romantic. Tifa reacts angrily when some slutty bird comes in and hits on her man, but sluttiness is not love at all. And Aeris is slutty. Anyone who would act the way she did around Cloud in the real world after only knowing them for that short a time would be called a slut by a lot of people. She also had it in for Zack, of course, but was probably willing to sleep with Cloud 'cause they were in the same crew that one time. Total slut actions. What a whore.

Tifa, on the other hand, acts exactly like a romantic lover would throughout. She stares at the stars with him, talks about the past and the future, and, you know, clearly gets it on when they're around the crater thing.

And really - really - you don't buy flowers from a girl you love and give them to a girl you don't love. That's just stupid. I mean, Cloud is stupid, but he's not that thick.
Lol, really? Aerith is NOT a slut. If she was a slut, she would have been screwing guys constantly after Zack wasn't around. She waited for Zack and when he didn't come back, she went to Cloud. That's two guys that she did NOT sleep with, ergo she is NOT a slut. (Can't tell if you're being serious or not though :p)


As I said, I believe you can share your feelings with someone and talk about the future with him/her, and having a lot of memories of the past, and even live some situations that could be named as romantic by others with someone and just be friends with him/her... =/
I mean, I have friends like that, the ones I use to share a lot of feelings and things of my life with them, and we usually make plans for the future (I can even remember we have talked more than once about living together for working or studying, the reasons doesn't matter)... I have also been in situations that someone could call romantic with some of them (alone), like watching the dusk in a beach and things like that, but I only have a friend relationship with them and we won't have something more than friends love... We could Never have something more! D:!
Honestly, in any other fandom all of that information would be enough to deem a couple canon. Look at it as a whole. Sure two people can share feelings related to their future and not be a couple. I guess you could raise a family with someone and not be their lover. Sure two people can belong together as friends.... but when you look at all those quotes as a whole, there's no reason to think that they're not a couple. I mean, if they used one, maybe TWO I could see you getting by on the just friends thing, but the evidence to suggest they're a couple is overwhelming when you look at it as the full puzzle and not just one piece at a time.


But well, the point is that I think Tifa can really have a love relationship with Barret more than with Cloud, and having all those memories and situations with him are not proof of Cloud loving her...
Based on what exactly? Your basis for Cloud and Tifa not being able to have a relationship is that Cloud doesn't love Tifa... when did Barret show he loved Tifa?

And it IS shown Cloud loves Tifa. It's the whole reason he went into SOLDIER. Also, in the lifestream event after Tifa says to the younger Cloud that she began looking for information about him in the newspapers he says something along the lines of, "Be sure to tell him that, he'll be happy to hear it." If Cloud's feelings are platonic, he wouldn't care so much about this. Also I'm sure Cloud wouldn't care so much about just a "friend" reading about him in the newspaper. And read Case of Tifa and tell me this sounds platonic:


“Cloud, you’re smiling.”

“I am?”

“Yeah.”

“It all starts now. A new…”

Cloud looked for the right words.

“A new life.”

“I’m going to live. I think that’s the only way I can be forgiven. All sorts of things… happened.”

“That’s right…”

“But when I think about how many times I’ve thought about how I was going to start a new life, it’s funny.”

“Why?”

“Because I’ve always failed everything.”

“That’s not funny.”

“After this … I think I’ll be okay.”

Cloud was silent for a long time before he spoke again.

“Because I have you this time.”

“You’ve always had me.”

“What I mean is kind of different,” Cloud answered with another smile.

Cloud is talking about having Tifa by his side in a way that's different than before. What is different? They shared and realized their mutual feelings for one another under the highwind and it wouldn't make sense for them to be realizing a friendship they already had...


When Tifa and Cloud were alone, Cloud said, “It’s not like you to be troubled by your thoughts.”
“It’s… Just the way I am.”
“No. You’re much more cheerful and strong. If you’ve forgotten the way you were then, I’ll be there to remind you.”
“You really will?”
“Probably,” Cloud said blushing.

Why is Cloud blushing here? Embarrassment? That doesn't fit the context. Must be something else going on.


And I don't remember Tifa and Cloud raising a family =/ ...please tell me If I'm wrong, but I remember them sharing life moments (Maybe living sometime with Cloud, but Cloud later moved to the church when he had Geostigma) and taking care of kids, but it was Barret there too =/...(FF7:AC)...Please tell me if I'm wrong, I never liked FF7 so much...
You are so wrong... so very very very wrong...

First of all, they WERE raising a family:
Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel have been referred to as a family SEVERAL times.



Now running a delivery business while helping out Tifa with the newly opened “Seventh Heaven” bar, Cloud, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel lived together like a family.
...........
With the support of former allies and Tifa, an important woman to him and now also part of his family, Cloud regains the courage to move forward.



After traveling to several places with Cloud and Barret, Tifa opens the bar Seventh Heaven in Edge on the advice of those around her. She was given custody of Marlene from Barret, who had left on a journey to find a new energy source. Together with Cloud, the 3 of them began living together as a family.
Notice the part I bolded. It specifically states the three of them are a family. Just the three of them, Barret is not included.

Also from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania:

Cloud brings Denzel back from the slum’s church and Denzel joins Cloud’s family.
Right there it states that the family is Cloud's and again Denzel joins it. No mention of Barret.

Also in FFVII AC Cloud calls the family his.
"Tifa I don't think I'm fit to help anyone. Not my family, not my friends, nobody."

Lastly there's the ACC playback. This guide also specifically states who's in the family:


When he awakes, there was his friends. There were the children, freed from their fatal illness. Tifa and Marlene, and Denzel asking for Cloud to heal his Geostigma– his family were waiting. Engulfed in celebration, he realises where he is meant to live. He realises that he was able to forgive himself.
In order we have
1.His friends.
2.The children
3.Tifa, Marlene and Denzel... his family! No mention of Barret or anyone else being in the family. Tifa, Marlene and Denzel are separated from the rest. So no, Barret was NOT there with them. It was confirmed in Case of Tifa that Barret left shortly after they opened the bar:


After the first week of being open, Barret said that he would go on a trip seeing how well the business was going. He was going to leave Marlene behind.
“I wanna go on a journey to settle my past.”
Tifa was disturbed at Barret’s words. Cloud nodded calmly as if he had heard about this before.
“Settle your past…? But I want to do that too.”
”Tifa, you can do it here. Don’t just take. Show that you can give too.”
After saying this, Barret said he still had to get ready and walked out of the bar.

And just like that he's gone and he does not return until FFVII AC/C. If you're going to argue that Cloud isn't in the family because he's not at 7th heaven much... you can't POSSIBLY say Barret is part of the family as he's NEVER there. As for Cloud not living there in ACC, we've discussed this already. It was due to his guilt. After that was resoled, he came back and continued to live with Tifa and the children, but you know who didn't? Barret.


Aerith lends her power to the people suffering from Geostigma in Edge, and personally provides for Cloud’s recovery. Geostimga is cured. Cloud returns to Tifa and the children.


Maybe they really wanted to make a love triangle for the story, but I think the result was a little different to what they maybe wanted because the final product didn't make a lot of us get that impression...
Only if you don't know the material.


I really think we are talking too much about something not that important...
I don't have a gun to your head forcing you to reply, do I? You're welcome to not reply at any time.


EDIT: As for what Cloud feels, a lot of what he says is dictated by the player. They basically set it out a fair bit so you can get your own emotional attachments to other characters, to feel as if you are Cloud. I'm not saying he had zero personality, but I am saying that you could make Cloud be a dick to Tifa or you could make him flirt with Tifa. Basically, Cloud might feel emotions but in the original game they are significantly impacted by the player.
And yet, no matter what you do to Tifa, they still share their feelings for one another under the highwind and “live together in AC and DC.” Strange, isn't it? It's like they're trying to send us a message :p

Ryushikaze
11-18-2009, 01:15 AM
I too, would like to know how Barret and Tifa have more of a chance than Cloud and Tifa, when neither of the former two have been said to have any romantic feelings for each other, and the latter two have, and have been said to have a future together, and are always discussed as together, to the point that they are a single keyword in the Crisis Core Keyword collection.

And hello again, everyone. Not sure if I am remembered.

Zeromus
11-18-2009, 03:51 AM
I really think we are talking too much about something not that important...
I don't have a gun to your head forcing you to reply, do I? You're welcome to not reply at any time.
lolololololol xd
You take things too seriously =/ ... That was just a light comment, and it had an emoticon at the end of the line to give it that light meaning...

About the thread... I really have not read the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, I prefer wasting my time playing videogames than reading about them... (even thought I enjoy too much talking about them) ...so I didn't know what they explained there about the story... that was one of the reasons why I said that if the developers want to put something in their stories, they not always get those results... The reason that they have to explain some facts in a guide or book, or interviews, or things like that is a proof of this... Those arguments taken from 10th Anniversary Ultimania, can be right, but they are not facts seen in the games or movie itselves... (I am not telling with this that they are wrong facts)...

About Barret, I'm really not saying that he has a love interest in Tifa... I'm just saying that I think he is better for her and he could have a good relationship, if that were the case...

About Cloud loving Tifa, I still really don't think so... But of course, there are all the facts that put them together in a relationship... Another interesting thing is that there is a lot of people that has a "love" relationship with people they really don't love... If the question is about feeling love or having a love interest, I would say by my opinion of what I see in the games and the movies that I don't believe he loves her...

Of course, I prefer Tifa instead of Aerith :B!

Hey, have you noticed that in the end of Dissidia, when they need/use an important or beloved memory to go back to their worlds, Cloud recalls Aerith flowers instead of something about Tifa? (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/ff7sam/Cloudending.jpg)
I think that's interesting... Would it be only his regret? Or is she really more important for him?
Well, this is just something curious I wanted to add to the topic... Of course there can be lot's of reasons for the developers to put this, specially the one that the concept of what represents their returning to their worlds has to be something characteristic from their original game/world... But I still think is curious...

Kyros
11-18-2009, 04:01 AM
I dont get why some people dont see anything between Cloud and Tifa. Cloud pretty much tells Tifa she's been the inspiration of everything he's done in his life...

Ryushikaze
11-18-2009, 05:25 AM
About the thread... I really have not read the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, I prefer wasting my time playing videogames than reading about them... (even thought I enjoy too much talking about them) ...so I didn't know what they explained there about the story... that was one of the reasons why I said that if the developers want to put something in their stories, they not always get those results... The reason that they have to explain some facts in a guide or book, or interviews, or things like that is a proof of this... Those arguments taken from 10th Anniversary Ultimania, can be right, but they are not facts seen in the games or movie itselves... (I am not telling with this that they are wrong facts)...

Nearly everything IN the UO and U10 is a clarification of facts presented either obliquely or briefly in the original games.


About Barret, I'm really not saying that he has a love interest in Tifa... I'm just saying that I think he is better for her and he could have a good relationship, if that were the case...

HOW, though? He's like her dad, if anything.


About Cloud loving Tifa, I still really don't think so... But of course, there are all the facts that put them together in a relationship... Another interesting thing is that there is a lot of people that has a "love" relationship with people they really don't love... If the question is about feeling love or having a love interest, I would say by my opinion of what I see in the games and the movies that I don't believe he loves her...

But you will say he loves someone else based on those same games and movie with far far less of an indication?


Hey, have you noticed that in the end of Dissidia, when they need/use an important or beloved memory to go back to their worlds, Cloud recalls Aerith flowers instead of something about Tifa? (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v510/ff7sam/Cloudending.jpg)
I think that's interesting... Would it be only his regret? Or is she really more important for him?
Well, this is just something curious I wanted to add to the topic... Of course there can be lot's of reasons for the developers to put this, specially the one that the concept of what represents their returning to their worlds has to be something characteristic from their original game/world... But I still think is curious...

This is actually a COMPLETE non-starter, since that's not what they need at all.
I mean, if was related to love interests, you'd expect Garnet to get mentioned in Zidane's departure, or Yuna in Tidus's, or ROSA IN GODDAMN CECIL'S. Hell, even Boco, Bartz's best goddamn friend, constant companion, and even part of his EX burst gets no mention. The field is Gaia, just as the moon represents the blue planet, and the red roses Firi's land, etc. You'd also expect them to make mention of this idea in the Dissidia Ultimania, but no, no mention of the yellow flowers as a link to Aerith. It is merely their homeworlds.
Besides, he trudges all over them, repeating 'Not interested' as he does so. TTLY romantic.

Seriously, though, why look to AUs and Dissidia for the answers to a question inside the Compilation?

And Zeromus, I do have to reiterate the idea that in any other setting, C/T's evidence would be more than sufficient, nearly excessive to prove that Cloud was in love with Tifa. Why now, in this setting, must the standards be so much higher for one side only?

Shishikabob
11-18-2009, 05:31 AM
lolololololol xd
You take things too seriously =/ ... That was just a light comment, and it had an emoticon at the end of the line to give it that light meaning...
Pfft, sorry, perhaps I should have added a :monster: at the end.... :monster:


About the thread... I really have not read the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, I prefer wasting my time playing videogames than reading about them... (even thought I enjoy too much talking about them)
Fair enough but I'm presenting you with facts to let you know what the real deal is. The love triangle is no longer opinion, it's fact now and I'm here to discuss the facts, not just people's preferences.


I didn't know what they explained there about the story... that was one of the reasons why I said that if the developers want to put something in their stories, they not always get those results... The reason that they have to explain some facts in a guide or book, or interviews, or things like that is a proof of this...
No dude, it's just that certain people choose to completely ignore the facts and see things another way even though they have to distort evidence to get there. Others like to cover their ears and sing when presented with correct material because it threatens their OTP.


Those arguments taken from 10th Anniversary Ultimania, can be right, but they are not facts seen in the games or movie itselves...
There's very few people who don't see these things as facts in the games. Like I said some people just prefer to either ignore it, or distort it. But just because some people don't see the facts the way they are, doesn't make them any less clear.


About Barret, I'm really not saying that he has a love interest in Tifa... I'm just saying that I think he is better for her and he could have a good relationship, if that were the case...
That's nice, the creators disagree though :monster:.


If the question is about feeling love or having a love interest, I would say by my opinion of what I see in the games and the movies that I don't believe he loves her...
I don't know how you see the Lifestream event and then say "Cloud doesn't love Tifa." I really don't, but either way I've provided you with the evidence that he does and you seem to understand now, so go you :cool:

As for Dissidia, I've never played so I'll let Ryu or someone else answer that. I will say that, as someone who is as strong of a Cloti as I am, Dissidia was the only time my resolve ever wavered. But I explain my findings here, but again, I never played it so I'm not really in a position to say anything:
LTD Dissidia Stuff (http://killthemongoose.com/dissidia.php)


I dont get why some people dont see anything between Cloud and Tifa. Cloud pretty much tells Tifa she's been the inspiration of everything he's done in his life...
AKA the lifestream event, which is exactly the point I was trying to make above.

Loony BoB
11-18-2009, 10:01 AM
Okay, Aeris isn't the pure definition of a slut, but she is slutty and, as I said, anyone who would act like that around someone they'd only just recently met would be considered to be infatuated at best. She never gives off any sign to me that she is after anything but a quick snog and shag. Possibly just trying to steal Tifa's guy, I dunno. But she certainly has no reason to be in love with him at all aside from that he might remind her of another guy - and that's not love for Cloud, that's love for Zack. So there you go.

Shishikabob
11-18-2009, 10:19 AM
I take it you're not one of those who believes Maiden of the Planet is canon? Also wondering if you've read Case of Lifestream White.

Loony BoB
11-18-2009, 10:26 AM
I've read a couple of the short stories they put online but don't recall them well. It doesn't make Aeris any less of a ho for how she acts around Cloud, though.

Shishikabob
11-18-2009, 10:28 AM
heh, okay then, I think I'm going to just that be that then. But if you do get around to reading them, you might change you mind.... MIGHT. :monster:

Loony BoB
11-18-2009, 10:30 AM
Note: "couple of short stories they put online" = Square Enix stories, not fanfiction. There's a good chance I may have read them. Although the one I remember was about Tifa and Cloud, not Aeris. So yarr.

Shishikabob
11-18-2009, 10:44 AM
Note: "couple of short stories they put online" = Square Enix stories, not fanfiction.
Right you mean like Case of Tifa and Case of Nanaki and such, right? and if it was about Tifa and Cloud, you read Case of Tifa :monster:

PeneloRatsbane
11-18-2009, 02:34 PM
Note: "couple of short stories they put online" = Square Enix stories, not fanfiction. There's a good chance I may have read them. Although the one I remember was about Tifa and Cloud, not Aeris. So yarr.


The one about Aeris is Cloud/Aeris-y
plus those lil short stories really suck and most fanfiction is actually better!! hah, The one about Yuffie is just dreadful, really poor.





he loved Aeris but she died, Tifa is a great friend to him and they have a chance at a happy relationship together. It's simple, a person can often love more than one person
I agree on the last bit but what makes you think Tifa is just a friend?




Oh sorry maybe i wasn't clear, I meant in FFVII she seems mainly like a friend and although she is aware that there was something between Cloud/Aeris she was still a friend to both of them, she is so loyal to Cloud and its obvious that she loves him and i think with time Cloud loves her too and he definatley had a crush on her as a kid. But then he meets Aeris who was sweet and funny and beautiful and he fell for her because things were ambigous with Tifa at the start of the game. I think his future love and relationship lies with Tifa.
But If Aeris hadn't have died then things might have been different, Cloud and Aeris just seemed to click and it was lighthearted and easy chemistry until tradegy struck.
He loved both of them at different times but his future happiness lies with Tifa.

Shishikabob
11-18-2009, 09:51 PM
But If Aeris hadn't have died then things might have been different, Cloud and Aeris just seemed to click and it was lighthearted and easy chemistry until tradegy struck.
I really think if the Lifestream Event happened, Cloud would have gone with Tifa even if Aerith was still alive. But yes I agree, they had chemistry, that seemed pretty obvious to me.

Kyros
11-18-2009, 11:05 PM
Do you think chemistry is one person basically attaching themselves to the other person constantly while that person can't breathe w/o being pulled along somewhere? That sounds like Cloud and Aeris to me =/

PeneloRatsbane
11-18-2009, 11:06 PM
But If Aeris hadn't have died then things might have been different, Cloud and Aeris just seemed to click and it was lighthearted and easy chemistry until tradegy struck.
I really think if the Lifestream Event happened, Cloud would have gone with Tifa even if Aerith was still alive. But yes I agree, they had chemistry, that seemed pretty obvious to me.

Hmm you see i don't know whether i agree with that first point, I'd like to think that after everything Cloud and Tifa went thru that he would choose her, but at the end of the game he was thinking about Aeris ("Lets go see her" or whatever he said when Tifa hoists him up)
Just imagine having the chance to have someone you lost back alive once again in your world, I mean i think that would be too tempting. With Zack long gone I think Aeris and Cloud would have got together.
But she didn't come back, dead is dead and so its a moot point. Tifa is the one he should be with now, and that doesn't cheapen his past relationship with Aeris or his original feelings for Tifa.


Do you think chemistry is one person basically attaching themselves to the other person constantly while that person can't breathe w/o being pulled along somewhere? That sounds like Cloud and Aeris to me =/

No I mean the way they banter around, lil flirty bits. The begining of the game is sort of lighthearted, Going round her mums house, Cloud and Aeris hanging out in the slums dressing Cloud up. Gold Saucer (I know, I know you can date three others), When she is murdered things start getting darker, obviously, but you know what i mean.

Ryushikaze
11-19-2009, 01:55 AM
The thing at the end wasn't about romance, it was 'Hey, let's go meet a fallen friend, Tifa'

In any case, which 'Aerith' one do you refer to? Maiden, or CoLW?

Because Maiden doesn't count AND is C/T in the end, and COLW is only her perspective.
All the flirty bits you talk about... aren't. Her mom's house he sneaks out of to go meet Tifa. The cross dressing, was to save Tifa. Even the Gold Saucer shows no real interest from Cloud. There may or may not be chemistry, but there's certainly no intent.

Shishikabob
11-19-2009, 10:14 AM
Tifa is the one he should be with now, and that doesn't cheapen his past relationship with Aeris or his original feelings for Tifa.
He had a relationship with Aerith?

Loony BoB
11-19-2009, 10:15 AM
It should be noted that 'relationship' doesn't always mean 'girlfriend and boyfriend'. It also can be used for friends, family, work colleagues, etc.

EDIT: As for flirting, there are occasions where you can say different things to different characters and I fully believe that the intent for FFVII was for you to be able to 'direct' Cloud towards one character or another. That also goes some way to explain why you can have different dates - the character of Cloud is not set in stone, and that is why he doesn't display many emotions throughout. I don't believe they (SE) would ever do anything to make Cloud's long-term love interest 'concrete'. They wouldn't say "No, he didn't love ____, he loved ____." Never. Because that would alienate a large amount of their fanbase. The whole intent of SE is for people to do a lot of the development of Cloud themselves. So there probably isn't a 'wrong' answer. However, the right answer is still Tifa because she was more of a romance than a cheap fling with a floozy.

Shishikabob
11-19-2009, 10:17 AM
I was assuming he meant romantic in that case because he was talking about them flirting and what not, but if he didn't, then it's my bad.

Loony BoB
11-19-2009, 10:19 AM
Edited the above post, btw. :p

Shishikabob
11-19-2009, 10:22 AM
So there probably isn't a 'wrong' answer.
Yes there is, Square has pretty much hammered us over the head with CxT. Maybe it wasn't apparent in the game, I agree with that, but it is crystal clear now. ... yeah see what I said above :monster:

Loony BoB
11-19-2009, 10:29 AM
Did they at any point say "But Cloud never loved Aeris" or anything? I still think there's a reason that people debate this. I mean, I agree that Tifa is the 'more right' answer, but saying that there is proof that Cloud never loved Aeris is I think a little over the top.

And Aeris is still a slag. :D

Shishikabob
11-19-2009, 10:33 AM
Well while I agree that they never said "Cloud never loved Aerith." but if he did or not is really up to how you played the game. There's no solid evidence that he actually DID love Aerith... nada, none, zero, zip, zilch, sorry but try again later. You could maybe make a case for Clerith if you played the game that way, but if you take out all optional evidence, you really have nothing for Clerith.

Ryushikaze
11-19-2009, 10:37 AM
I think you're arguing two entirely different things.

Loony is saying Disc 1 Cloud is a cypher of the player, to shove whims in as they like. This is true.

Shishi is saying Disc 1 Cloud, AS a Cypher, does not matter, or at least all the optional dialogues do not count, as none of the decisions are 'canon'- Arguably, Tifa's date is, having been in two Square released compilations of the script, but pfeh- and that the real meat and potatos comes when the illusion of choice is removed from the player, when he breaks down and we learn his true self and motivations. This is also true.

Loony BoB
11-19-2009, 10:40 AM
I'd agree with that. I think we agree on most things, really. EDIT: The above post wasn't there when I posted. I was replying to Shishi.

Also, for whoever brought up the "Let's go see Aeris" thing or whatever being a sign he loved her or something - okay, say someone is really into you. Major styles. They're your friend. You're into someone else, also a friend but (as it turns out) eventually more than that. But the someone who is into you dies. Now, do you just completely ignore that for the rest of your life or are you affected? You'd be pretty cruel if you didn't have strong feelings of sadness, I tells ya.

...I was pretty cruel, I celebrated. >_>; Heh. But yeah, my point is that yes, he will always feel a strong sense of sadness that Aeris died and will probably think of her from time to time on a deep level. That's normal. But anyone who says these are definite signs of romance are incorrect, as far as I'm concerned.

EDIT: As for the above post, I would say that it's impossible to say one date is canon while the others are not... the game itself is the main storyline and the others are additions to it. To say that the main game was played out incorrectly by someone or anything along those lines is silly. The main game, as you play it, is the storyline for that game's play-through.

Anything else may or may not be canon, but it's possible that SE can make mistakes by referring to something that may not have happened in one person's game. The game itself is how you play it, that is the main storyline for anyone and you can't change the way that specific play-through panned out. It'll always be canon in that play-through. You can't just say "Oh, that never happened" about the main game. They can, however, argue that there are alternate realities and that the rest of the canon games/videos/etc are based on one of those realities. Which is as accurate as you can get, I guess, as to what is happening with the series.

Sort of like those old Choose Your Own Adventure books they had. You can't say one storyline is accurate and the others aren't. They're in the book, they're there, it just so happens that you can have multiple stories from the same book. In FFVII's case, they generally end up the same anyway (ie Cloud is with Tifa).

But this is probably getting into things a bit much. :D My answer to the original question of the thread is that Tifa is Cloud's main love interest. However, I can understand how people can say that Cloud would have actually gone for the one which was more willing to jump into bed with him at the time, and for them, maybe Aeris was the love interest while she was still alive. But that's part of the greatness of FFVII: You can choose what to believe yourself, not everything is written in stone.

EDIT: Long edit. This is possibly the longest post I've made on FF games in aaaaaaaaages. xD

Shishikabob
11-19-2009, 10:49 AM
"you must spread some reputation around before giving it to Loony Bob again"
dammit :(

but good post, I completely agree, I hate how Cloud missing Aerith or feeling guilty about her death must automatically mean he loves her romantically. Yet the feelings Tifa and Cloud shared for one another must be friendship... whatever.

EDIT:
BTW I'm not saying disc 1 doesn't matter, I was just trying to say it's all optional and there's no evidence that he likes Aerith romantically that isn't optional... unless I'm wrong, correct me if I'm wrong..

EDIT2:


However, I can understand how people can say that Cloud would have actually gone for the one which was more willing to jump into bed with him at the time, and for them, maybe Aeris was the love interest while she was still alive
And I'm saying I can't, but I'm a bitch like that :monster:

Loony BoB
11-19-2009, 10:55 AM
I would agree that there is nothing to strongly suggest he likes Aeris romantically that is not optional. It's been a long time since I've played the game, though.

Shishikabob
11-19-2009, 11:01 AM
BTW I was speaking solely on facts above... personally, I have always thought that Aerith and Cloud, at the very least had good chemistry. I've often even argued on forums that they did have feelings for another, (puppy love anyway) and TBH it seems obvious to me XD but I've never been able to prove it, so really that's interpretation, and even though I agree there's no evidence.. it's just something I always felt.

Loony BoB
11-19-2009, 11:08 AM
Soldier boys are known to like cheap bimbos, yes. ;) Mwahaha, I've not insulted Aeris this much in a while. Good times.

PeneloRatsbane
11-19-2009, 02:12 PM
Wasn't Tifa added in as an after thought? when they decided to kill Aeris? that might be speculative or flat out wrong but I always saw Tifa as the secondary love interest, but who steps up to main love interest when Aeris dies.
Plus Cait Sith said Cloud and Aeris were more compatable or something, why bother putting that in if Aeris wasn't the main love interest?

I dunno, this is a question that can't be answered. I'm resigned to thinking its just "complicated" like love in genereal :D

Christmas
11-19-2009, 02:40 PM
Am I the only one that thinks Cloud want both of them like every normal guy that went through puberty? :bigsmile:

Raistlin
11-19-2009, 07:38 PM
Soldier boys are known to like cheap bimbos, yes. ;) Mwahaha, I've not insulted Aeris this much in a while. Good times.

Haha, reminds me of that FF7 character poll where we both worked hard to sabotage Aeris.

Though I did not take it to the degree of actually celebrating her death. :screwy:

Ryushikaze
11-19-2009, 09:26 PM
Wasn't Tifa added in as an after thought?

No.


when they decided to kill Aeris? that might be speculative or flat out wrong but I always saw Tifa as the secondary love interest, but who steps up to main love interest when Aeris dies.

Even if Tifa was made exactly when they decided to kill Aerith, this decision happened long before the story as we know it existed. Tifa was the fifth character or so designed, after original design Cloud, Barrett, and Aerith as she was.
That said, that idea actually hurts the C/A cause, because when they decided it was to be Aerith who died, they changed her role and gave it to Tifa. So if she was the Alpha in the beginning of development, that role was given to Tifa.


Plus Cait Sith said Cloud and Aeris were more compatable or something, why bother putting that in if Aeris wasn't the main love interest?

To act as a red herring before SHE DIES. Cait Sith is called an unreliable fortune teller by the people who made the game.


I dunno, this is a question that can't be answered. I'm resigned to thinking its just "complicated" like love in genereal :D

It's actually an incredibly straightforward example of romance, literary-ly speaking.

Loony BoB
11-19-2009, 10:00 PM
Though I did not take it to the degree of actually celebrating her death. :screwy:
By 'celebrating' I mean saying something like "Woohoo!" or "Yes!" when she got whacked.

Shishikabob
11-19-2009, 10:07 PM
Wasn't Tifa added in as an after thought? when they decided to kill Aeris? that might be speculative or flat out wrong but I always saw Tifa as the secondary love interest, but who steps up to main love interest when Aeris dies.
If we're going to go down that route then let me tell you that originally Cloud and Tifa were going to have sex under the highwind, with no mistake for "Maybe they just talked." or anything. Originally, they were going to go into a Chocobo stable, and come out the next morning and Cloud was going to look around nervously or something to that effect.

PeneloRatsbane
11-19-2009, 10:35 PM
Ahhh Okay just to be clear, I don't give a damn about who Cloud really loves or whatever, its fictional and this argument will rage on as long as people play this game. I think no matter what its always going to come to personal preference and personal interpretation.
There was romance between Cloud and Aeris, but overall its Cloud and Tifa at the end game.

Ryushikaze
11-19-2009, 10:40 PM
I'm just curious, this romance, where is it? What romance can you have when the guy is completely oblivious of your intentions?

Shishikabob
11-19-2009, 10:45 PM
Well maybe he (she?) meant there was romance from Aerith :monster:

PeneloRatsbane
11-19-2009, 10:52 PM
(She)

Oh i dunno, he's flirty or whatever.
TBH i haven't played this game in like 5 years and i certainly never gave it that much thought. *shrugs* But its popular innit, with the masses, I mean it didn't pop out of no where did it.

Kyros
11-20-2009, 01:38 AM
I replayed through this whole game about 3-4 weeks ago and I really didnt see too much stuff to say Aeris was the main love interest. Pretty much everything in the game pointed to Tifa.

Elly
11-20-2009, 01:42 AM
i never got "flirty" out of Cloud as i played him cool & cold the way Bigs, Wedge, & Barret keep sugesting his personality is in the beginning of the game... i feel if you play it like that, telling Aerith to go home and such, you're playing closer to what the other characters percieve of his personality... his personality was set up by the perceptions of the other characters you interact with from the start, playing it any other way (i.e. flirting with Aerith) is just injecting a bit of your own desires into the character, even if they are the wrong choices you're still allowed to make them for your own enjoyment of the game... the flirty choices are the choices Zack would have made and let's not forget Cloud did take on a bit of Zacks personality there for a while... oh and by playing by that philosophy i always got the Tifa Date...

silentenigma
11-20-2009, 04:09 AM
In the original 1997 game, it appeared that Cloud's love interest was somewhere between "completely ambiguous" and "kinda leaning toward Aeris."
Is anyone going to tell me why they say this XD

And could you please tell me what retcons you're referring to? I did not see any, but yes I agree SoS's essay on the subject was excellent. He really knows his stuff.


But since 2005 or whatever with the coming of the FFVII: Retcon Edition series, there have been major, if not overwhelming implications towards Tifa being Cloud's love interest.
I concur.
I look forward to hearing back from you and Melissaur.

A few things come to mind that seemed to give Aeris an slight edge in the game... like the ending and the fact that Aeris starts out with 20 more love points than Tifa in the dating mechanics. I'm pretty sure in his article SoS does address these points. Also with the highwind scene at the end of Disk 2... since there is a high affection version and a low affection version for Tifa, i don't really consider either of them as canon or very indicative of Cloud's 'true' love interest.

But I'm sure that in 10 pages everyone's already brought up all of that stuff... I'm not going to bother reading it all.

And about the compilation being full of retcons and ruining the integrity of the original... That's for an entirely different discussion, but it's true. And I say that in a general sense; there's not to my knowledge any retcons in the compilation that completely 'undo' the cloudxaeris moments of the game.

Ryushikaze
11-20-2009, 05:04 AM
A few things come to mind that seemed to give Aeris an slight edge in the game... like the ending and the fact that Aeris starts out with 20 more love points than Tifa in the dating mechanics.

Which reflects on Aerith, not Cloud, since the AV decides who takes action.


I'm pretty sure in his article SoS does address these points. Also with the highwind scene at the end of Disk 2... since there is a high affection version and a low affection version for Tifa, i don't really consider either of them as canon or very indicative of Cloud's 'true' love interest.

The 'high' version only was listed an an important scene in the story of FF7 in the 20th Ani Ultimania Scenario book. It is canon.


But I'm sure that in 10 pages everyone's already brought up all of that stuff... I'm not going to bother reading it all.

And about the compilation being full of retcons and ruining the integrity of the original... That's for an entirely different discussion, but it's true.

Horribly overstated. There are a few retcons, but hardly as many as people keep whinging about.


And I say that in a general sense; there's not to my knowledge any retcons in the compilation that completely 'undo' the cloudxaeris moments of the game.

Which are?

Shishikabob
11-20-2009, 08:33 AM
like the ending and the fact that Aeris starts out with 20 more love points than Tifa in the dating mechanics.
Well she comes in later you know :P And the fact that they start her with so many really says something to me, and it's not "She's Cloud's true love" :monster:

silentenigma
11-21-2009, 06:25 AM
A few things come to mind that seemed to give Aeris an slight edge in the game... like the ending and the fact that Aeris starts out with 20 more love points than Tifa in the dating mechanics.
Which reflects on Aerith, not Cloud, since the AV decides who takes action.

Well she comes in later you know :P And the fact that they start her with so many really says something to me, and it's not "She's Cloud's true love" :monster:

I really don't think the reason that Square gave Aeris 20 extra points was because they were expecting most of their audience to prefer Tifa and were compensating for it. Rather, they probably did so because they wanted the player to most likely get Aeris for the gold saucer date. I'm not saying that this this alone would make Aeris the primary love interest of the game, because it's just one date, and we all know that there's another good 20 hours left in the game after the first disk.


The 'high' version only was listed an an important scene in the story of FF7 in the 20th Ani Ultimania Scenario book. It is canon.

Ah, I guess it most likely is then.. But it seems like you probably didn't read my first post... it's on page one and pretty much explains that I'm not going to try and argue that cloudxaeris is canon. After all, as I have also said, the newer interviews and Compilation installments give a ton of evidence in favor of a romantic cloudxtifa relationship of some sort. So yeah, I'm really not just spamming cloudxaeris.


Horribly overstated. There are a few retcons, but hardly as many as people keep whining about.

I really do believe that there are, and I do believe that the compilation has ruined the integrity of the original game. (But like I said, getting into specifics would be for a different discussion, though there's no way I'm going to start that thread.) Therefore when I judge pretty much anything about FFVII, I do so based solely on what we had in 1998 - the original game. This includes who I consider to be Cloud's main love interest, among other things. Now I know most people here disagree with this approach to FFVII...I remember how you guys tore some user named Charcoal to shreds a couple years ago for "living in the past" like I do. But I just would like to offer an alternative perspective on things.



And I say that in a general sense; there's not to my knowledge any retcons in the compilation that completely 'undo' the cloudxaeris moments of the game.
Which are?

It is undeniable that there are both cloudxaeris moments and cloudxtifa moments in FFVII. I just said that mostly because I didn't want to seem like I am against the compilation just because it specifically retcons the cloudxaeris moments in the game, which it does not.

By the way, is there anyone up for debating what the game's ending indicates about Cloud's feelings? I'm certainly not in the mood to, but I would like to see someone address it at some point.

The Man
11-21-2009, 06:28 AM
Yeah, I'm just here to point out that silentenigma has evaded Ryushikaze's question and has not listed a single one of these supposed CloudxAerith moments in Final Fantasy VII.

Shishikabob
11-21-2009, 06:30 AM
I really don't think the reason that Square gave Aeris 20 extra points was because they were expecting most of their audience to prefer Tifa and were compensating for it.
I didn't mean to imply this... I meant that they did it because she came later in the game and needed to balance her out with Tifa.


It is undeniable that there are both cloudxaeris moments and cloudxtifa moments in FFVII.
While I agree Aerith and Cloud seemed to have good chemistry... and they probably had feelings, I have yet to see something that can be used as absolute CxA evidence. Can you please at least give me one (non optional)?

Oh hi Aaron, you and I thought the same thing :monster:

Loony BoB
11-21-2009, 08:05 AM
The 20 extra points is based on one thing, I'm sure: The mechanics. They might have done some game testing and found that it was very difficult at the start to get an Aeris date based on their starting points, possibly due to there being more opportunities to hit on Tifa or do things with Tifa than there were with Aeris. The 20 points can't be used as any kind of evidence whatsoever, it's nothing more than what you pointed out it was: "Game mechanics". How many did Yuffie and/or Barret start with? 0 as well as Tifa? Does that mean that they are just as much a love interest of Cloud as Tifa is? No? Well, there you have it.

Ahaha, I also noticed the question evasion.

Ryushikaze
11-21-2009, 09:25 AM
I really don't think the reason that Square gave Aeris 20 extra points was because they were expecting most of their audience to prefer Tifa and were compensating for it. Rather, they probably did so because they wanted the player to most likely get Aeris for the gold saucer date. I'm not saying that this this alone would make Aeris the primary love interest of the game, because it's just one date, and we all know that there's another good 20 hours left in the game after the first disk.

They gave her a 20 point lead because otherwise Tifa would have led by 23 before you even met Aerith, to say nothing of Tifa's AV loop in ShinRa tower.
And again, the AV are irrelevant to Cloud. If they are anything but a game mechanic, they represent the opinion of the person towards Cloud, in a very limited sense.


Ah, I guess it most likely is then.. But it seems like you probably didn't read my first post... it's on page one and pretty much explains that I'm not going to try and argue that cloudxaeris is canon. After all, as I have also said, the newer interviews and Compilation installments give a ton of evidence in favor of a romantic cloudxtifa relationship of some sort. So yeah, I'm really not just spamming cloudxaeris.

I can completely ignore the compilation and still cogently argue the C/T case. I did so before there was a compilation. Only thing the compilation has done is give me specific facts. And you do misunderstand, this was not an interview or a compilation entry. It was the 20th Anniversay Ultimania, an overview of all the FF games of the past 20 years and their important characters and story elements. None of the additional compilation entries were included in the scenario section- though they were in the character section.


I really do believe that there are, and I do believe that the compilation has ruined the integrity of the original game. (But like I said, getting into specifics would be for a different discussion, though there's no way I'm going to start that thread.) Therefore when I judge pretty much anything about FFVII, I do so based solely on what we had in 1998 - the original game. This includes who I consider to be Cloud's main love interest, among other things. Now I know most people here disagree with this approach to FFVII...I remember how you guys tore some user named Charcoal to shreds a couple years ago for "living in the past" like I do. But I just would like to offer an alternative perspective on things.

... Outside of Nibelheim, WHAT RETCONS?
And again, I can, and have, argued using MERELY the original game and materials released around that time, to elucidate the C/T conclusion.
Lifestream sequence and Cloud's tender/precious and secret memories. Hearts calling out to each other. Cloud's 'So much to say/ no clue what to/ Nothing's changed' and Tifa's 'words aren't the only way' in response. Cloud fighting for a very personal memory, in reference back to the lifestream sequence. The butt touch and the general closeness to each other during the ending. The fact that the Promise is a key aspect of Cloud's personality, that falling and failing to catch someone is a repeated theme from nearly the beginning of the game and truly from the start of his tale when he fails to catch Tifa and this arc is closed by him saving Tifa from falling.
I can go on.




And I say that in a general sense; there's not to my knowledge any retcons in the compilation that completely 'undo' the cloudxaeris moments of the game.
Which are?

It is undeniable that there are both cloudxaeris moments and cloudxtifa moments in FFVII. I just said that mostly because I didn't want to seem like I am against the compilation just because it specifically retcons the cloudxaeris moments in the game, which it does not.

Evasion noted.
Concession will be accepted in three additional posts where you do not provide examples.


By the way, is there anyone up for debating what the game's ending indicates about Cloud's feelings? I'm certainly not in the mood to, but I would like to see someone address it at some point.

It indicates that he considers Aerith a dear friend, and he is sure Tifa would like to see her again, which is why Cloud comforts her with the plan to meet Aerith again in case the world goes tits up.

Addendum Re: AV starting numbers: Aerith 50, Tifa 30, Yuffie 10, Barret 0, to start. Are we to believe that Cloud likes Aerith and Yuffie before he even knows them? Are we to believe he 'likes Barret more' because he gives Marlene a flower?
Or does it make more sense for these values to reflect the attitudes of Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, and Barret?

Raistlin
11-21-2009, 04:42 PM
How many did Yuffie and/or Barret start with? 0 as well as Tifa? Does that mean that they are just as much a love interest of Cloud as Tifa is? No? Well, there you have it.

Obviously Sailor-Suit Barret was Cloud's true love.

line_genrou
11-22-2009, 04:20 PM
I never got the feeling in the game that Cloud was ever in love with Aerith.What he expressed after her death,was like everyone else in the group,a loss of a great friend that had some kind of heroic death.

And seriously people,Cloud was so messed up,he didn't even know who he was,you really believe he fell in love with Aerith in that short period of time they were together and under those conditions? :eep:

silentenigma
11-22-2009, 08:53 PM
They gave her a 20 point lead because otherwise Tifa would have led by 23 before you even met Aerith, to say nothing of Tifa's AV loop in ShinRa tower.
And again, the AV are irrelevant to Cloud. If they are anything but a game mechanic, they represent the opinion of the person towards Cloud, in a very limited sense.

While Tifa's AV loop can actually go either way (to either infinitely add or subtract from her score) I have reviewed the mechanics and you are right, it's pretty easy to rack up a high tifa score in the beginning. I took the 'average' point values for all the AV situations and they end up pretty even for Tifa and Aeris when the extra 20 points are added.


And you do misunderstand, this was not an interview or a compilation entry. It was the 20th Anniversay Ultimania, an overview of all the FF games of the past 20 years and their important characters and story elements. None of the additional compilation entries were included in the scenario section- though they were in the character section.
I know that the ultimania was just about the game, but due to the time of its release - and the fact that its character sections reference the compilation like you said - suggests that the scenario section could very well have been affected by the outlook of the compilation. After all, when put into perspective with the compilation (OtWtaS:CoT, Advent Children) the 'high affection' version is the only one that really makes any sense. It's logical that the ultimania, then, would reflect this.


... Outside of Nibelheim, WHAT RETCONS?

I'm glad you acknowledge Nibelheim, because while it may not be an issue for you, I have a big problem with how much it's been changed. And here's a quick list of just a few things from the compilation which retcon the original game or, in my opinion, undermine the original game in some way:

Crisis Core does most of the retconning:
Cloud mimicking Zack due to his instruction to become Zack's "living legacy/proof of existence" rather than completely due to Jenova's cells taking advantage of his weaknesses.
Cloud being able to speek coherently BEFORE being found (and 'awakened') by Tifa on the streets of Midgar.
Cloud remaining hidden from Shinra troops, rather than the troops finding him and leaving him for dead.
Zack being the first to fall through the church roof in the slums, in the exact same spot as Cloud would later on. (Though there is no question the Cloud DID crash through the roof in FFVII unless we ignore the fact that he is found under the rubble and that he and Aeris suppose he survived because of it; Did the roof get fixed since Zack crashed through it? Who would fix an abandoned church in the slums? Are we to assume that there are two holes in the roof now?) I haven't played Crisis Core so I'm sure there are more.

Advent Children does most of the undermining:
At the end of FFVII, when the party supposes that Sephiroth has been defeated, Cloud senses that there is remnant of him still present. He then fights an out-of-body battle to destroy all that is left of sephiroth, even in this abstract state of existence. There is no reason why there should still be remnants of Sephiroth floating in the lifestream, waiting for an opportunity to return to life and turn back into Sephiroth via Jenova.
Which brings me to Jenova: By the end of FFVII, all of Jenova's fragments (with the exception of cell extracts) had reunited, and Cloud & co. defeat "Jenova Absolute." By this time, there is no reason for Jenova as a specimen (or what they call its 'head') to still live on. But as revealed FFVII:AC, it turns out they actually didn't get the job done, with Jenova and with Sephiroth. So although it doesn't necessarily have 'retcons' in a proper sense, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children effectively wrecks a lot of what is accomplished and established in the original game.



And again, I can, and have, argued using MERELY the original game and materials released around that time, to elucidate the C/T conclusion.
What are the materials from around 1997 which you've used?



Lifestream sequence and Cloud's tender/precious and secret memories.
This can plausibly be argued not to have been the basis for a romantic relationship, but rather to have been an event which took place between close friends who shared a closely connected past. Cloud's subconscious kept these tender/precious memories (which concerned Tifa's mother's death, Cloud and Tifa's fall from Mt Nibel, and Tifa's coma) hidden mostly due to past embarrassment of being blamed for putting the girl he liked in danger, when he had actually been trying to help her, and the detrimental affect this event had on the remainder of his childhood. EDIT: And although they served as his true original motivation to become a SOLDIER - wanting to transcend the other boys and get Tifa to notice him - these feelings didn't carry over into his present state. They were only a catalyst, and Cloud completely forgets about this original motivation for most of the game. Only the young boy deep within his consciousness remembers it.


Hearts calling out to each other. Cloud's 'So much to say/ no clue what to/ Nothing's changed' and Tifa's 'words aren't the only way' in response.
This is, of course, the high affection version. In the low affection version, Cloud does not acknowledge calling out to Tifa's heart, and nothing physical takes place between the two that night. The high affection version, if i'm not mistaken, has been considered canon only since the 2007 Ultimania.


Cloud fighting for a very personal memory, in reference back to the lifestream sequence.

At the end of Disk 2:


What are we all fighting for? I want us to understand that. Save the planet...for the future of the planet...Sure, that's all fine. But really, is that really how it is? For me, this is a personal feud. I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past. Saving the planet just happens to be a part of that. I've been thinking. I think we are all fighting for ourselves. For ourselves...and that someone...something...whatever it is, that's important to us. That's what we're fighting for. That's why we keep up this battle for the planet.
Cloud is NOT fighting for his memories of Tifa.


The butt touch and the general closeness to each other during the ending.
The "butt touch," if i get what you're referring to, was more of a touch to the back of his leg above the knee, to help/'make sure' Cloud was able to climb all the way onto the ledge. Even if she was tenderly/erotically touching his ass there (which it doesn't appear that she was) it only shows Tifa's affection for Cloud, not his affection for her.


The fact that the Promise is a key aspect of Cloud's personality, that falling and failing to catch someone is a repeated theme from nearly the beginning of the game and truly from the start of his tale when he fails to catch Tifa and this arc is closed by him saving Tifa from falling.
Still does not indicate a romantic relationship.



Evasion noted.
Concession will be accepted in three additional posts where you do not provide examples.

I answered the way that I did because I was short on time and I did not expect that you folks do not believe there is ANYTHING that REMOTELY suggests that Cloud MIGHT HAVE HAD affection for Aeris. Now I'm not saying that any one instance of the following offers all the proof that CloudxAeris was intended to be canon in the original game. At the most I'm trying to convey that the game either leaves it as ambiguous OR gives Aeris a SLIGHT edge. Here's a few non-optional scenes to consider:

Cait Sith's prediction: Although he was wrong about the two living happily ever after together, the context surrounding the prediction has CloudxAeris overtones: Cloud agrees to pose with Aeris as the prediction is made; "Interrupted by Fireworks," a sentimental tune, starts playing as soon as Cait Sith comes upon his prediction; Tifa, if in the party, becomes fed up and turns away jealously. (Why would she react this way if there was absolutely no reason to believe there was something between Aeris and Cloud at the time?)
Cloud's dream of Aeris in the sleeping forest: AerisxCloud implications are made when Cloud and Aeris fall slowly together to the ground, and when Cloud tries to run after Aeris as if 'pursuing her' and not wanting her to leave. I will concur, however, that there may be many different interpretations of this scene.
The Ending: Aeris' and Cloud's souls (or whatever you want to call their out-of-body existences) reach out to each other before Cloud snaps back into reality and into his own body.


An answer from the Planet...the Promised Land...I think I can meet her...there.

Here Cloud is obviously expressing a personal desire to meet Aeris and says that she can be found in the Promised Land, which we all know is a very personal place/state of mind. Therefore by saying "I can meet her... there", he makes it clear that: 1) He's not too concerned with Tifa or the others meeting her, and 2) he's planning on meeting with Aeris in a way which the others cannot. Now Tifa, surprised and/or taken by what Cloud has just said, responds with "Yeah, let's go meet her." She, not Cloud, is the one to apply his statement to herself and the others, since after all, Aeris is missed by everyone. Although it is a sentimental line, it is not said with the same level of depth as Cloud's line is, and it really doesn't seem to be what Cloud has in mind--Because when you put it all into perspective, Cloud sees meeting Aeris as something which is a significant part of, if not wholly in itself, his personal Promised Land. Also, Tifa's reaction to Cloud's line (both in her line and in her facial expressions) can be interpreted a couple of different ways: Either she 1) is very touched by Cloud expressing the significance of the dear friend she recently lost, or 2) she is becoming aware of who is truly on Cloud's mind, accepts it, and resigns from her pursuit of him, or 3) Both.


Of much greater significance, however, is Cloud’s line from the ending of the game about meeting Aerith again. Until the Compilation of FFVII came along, this line was seen by many Cleriths as the clencher that Cloud preferred Aerith, and by many Clotis and neutrals as the line that left things just ambiguous enough.

Though I would have once argued otherwise, looking at things more objectively today, I have to agree that this line left matters in the original game more in favor of Aerith than of Tifa. Due to the existence of the newer Compilation materials, however, that no longer holds true in the wider scheme of things.

As a critic of the Compilation & materials, I agree with SoS, that the ending tips the scale slightly in the direction of Aeris when looking only at the original game. Aside from that, I think the game is pretty ambiguous on the matter. A lot depends on how much weight you place on certain aspects of the game, really.

Shishikabob
11-22-2009, 10:39 PM
Imma piss Ryu off and respond to you even though you were responding to him.


After all, when put into perspective with the compilation (OtWtaS:CoT, Advent Children) the 'high affection' version is the only one that really makes any sense. It's logical that the ultimania, then, would reflect this.
Would that not make it canon then?


Cait Sith's prediction:
Said by the creators to be BS in the Ultima Omega... or at least they called his predictions unreliable.


Cloud's dream of Aeris in the sleeping forest: AerisxCloud implications are made when Cloud and Aeris fall slowly together to the ground, and when Cloud tries to run after Aeris as if 'pursuing her' and not wanting her to leave. I will concur, however, that there may be many different interpretations of this scene.
What about Tifa and Cloud rising slowly out of the lifestream?... does that count for CxT then? And Cloud's chasing her probably to I dunno, apologize for beating the crap out of her. Or maybe to find out where she's going.

Did you notice when Cloud wakes up he does NOT want to go after her? His friend have to convince him to do so.


The Ending: Aeris' and Cloud's souls (or whatever you want to call their out-of-body existences) reach out to each other before Cloud snaps back into reality and into his own body.
And it was Tifa's hand that was really reaching for him, wasn't it? So how can that be CxA?

So, no none of those are really CxA...
I'll let Ryu do the rest... I'm tired XD

silentenigma
11-22-2009, 11:31 PM
After all, when put into perspective with the compilation (OtWtaS:CoT, Advent Children) the 'high affection' version is the only one that really makes any sense. It's logical that the ultimania, then, would reflect this.
Would that not make it canon then?

Yes, it certainly is canon, but I'm not going for 2009 canon. I've been discussing a VERY alternate point of view since I do not accept anything after ~2003 (the Compilation) into my own personal continuity. This basically leaves us with the original game only.




Cait Sith's prediction:
Said by the creators to be BS in the Ultima Omega... or at least they called his predictions unreliable.
Well it's obvious that the prediction itself was BS, considering what happens... but I was talking moar about the atmosphere surrounding the scene.



What about Tifa and Cloud rising slowly out of the lifestream?... does that count for CxT then?
Yes it most certainly does. And like the forest scene, it can be interpreted a couple of ways and alone cannot be definitive support for anything.



And Cloud's chasing her probably to I dunno, apologize for beating the crap out of her. Or maybe to find out where she's going.

Your latter suggestion is definately the more valid interpretation; remember that I said there can be many different (non CxA) interpretations of this scene based on your leanings. However, he already did apologize for beating her earlier in the dream, and she did tell him where she was going. And when she turned to run off, since he was dreaming, he wasn't able to hold her back (shown by him reaching out) or follow her like he wanted (running without going anywhere).



Did you notice when Cloud wakes up he does NOT want to go after her? His friend have to convince him to do so.
Cloud, after he wakes up, is afraid he might end up killing Aeris or doing something terrible if he follows her. It is for this reason that he does not want to go, even though deep down, as shown by his hazy and abstract dream, he does want to follow her (for whatever reason).



And it was Tifa's hand that was really reaching for him, wasn't it? So how can that be CxA?

When Cloud snaps back into his own body, Tifa is frantically reaching out to him and shouting to him because he's in mortal peril and she's trying to awaken him and save him from falling into the lifestream. This situation is a far cry from the dream-like, idealistic moment he was having just seconds earlier, where Cloud and Aeris reached out to each other as if to be reunited. A lot of people also see the transition from Aeris' hand to Tifa's as symbolic of Cloud choosing Tifa over Aeris, and had Cloud not suddenly been thrust into a life-or-death situation, I'd probably agree. However, that's not the case.

Ryushikaze
11-22-2009, 11:43 PM
While Tifa's AV loop can actually go either way (to either infinitely add or subtract from her score) I have reviewed the mechanics and you are right, it's pretty easy to rack up a high tifa score in the beginning. I took the 'average' point values for all the AV situations and they end up pretty even for Tifa and Aeris when the extra 20 points are added.

There's also an infinite Yuffie loop too.
But yes, even without the loop, Tifa can easily pull ahead just by being nice to her in the beginning and not favoring either girl afterwards.


I know that the ultimania was just about the game, but due to the time of its release - and the fact that its character sections reference the compilation like you said - suggests that the scenario section could very well have been affected by the outlook of the compilation. After all, when put into perspective with the compilation (OtWtaS:CoT, Advent Children) the 'high affection' version is the only one that really makes any sense. It's logical that the ultimania, then, would reflect this.

It was also featured in both Memorial Albums, which well predate the compilation.


I'm glad you acknowledge Nibelheim, because while it may not be an issue for you, I have a big problem with how much it's been changed. And here's a quick list of just a few things from the compilation which retcon the original game or, in my opinion, undermine the original game in some way:

Crisis Core does most of the retconning:
Cloud mimicking Zack due to his instruction to become Zack's "living legacy/proof of existence" rather than completely due to Jenova's cells taking advantage of his weaknesses.

That isn't a retcon. Cloud still BELIEVES he is Zack during this time because of Jenova's meddling. Zack's words don't influence this.


Cloud being able to speek coherently BEFORE being found (and 'awakened') by Tifa on the streets of Midgar.
Cloud remaining hidden from Shinra troops, rather than the troops finding him and leaving him for dead.

The previous version was a recollection by Cloud. It is prone to error.
Cloud being able to speak or not was not actually specifically mentioned one way or another, previously.


Zack being the first to fall through the church roof in the slums, in the exact same spot as Cloud would later on. (Though there is no question the Cloud DID crash through the roof in FFVII unless we ignore the fact that he is found under the rubble and that he and Aeris suppose he survived because of it; Did the roof get fixed since Zack crashed through it? Who would fix an abandoned church in the slums? Are we to assume that there are two holes in the roof now?) I haven't played Crisis Core so I'm sure there are more.

This also is not a retcon. This is just information you don't like. Zack falls through the roof in a different location. This hole is there in FF7.


Advent Children does most of the undermining:
At the end of FFVII, when the party supposes that Sephiroth has been defeated, Cloud senses that there is remnant of him still present. He then fights an out-of-body battle to destroy all that is left of sephiroth, even in this abstract state of existence. There is no reason why there should still be remnants of Sephiroth floating in the lifestream, waiting for an opportunity to return to life and turn back into Sephiroth via Jenova.
Which brings me to Jenova: By the end of FFVII, all of Jenova's fragments (with the exception of cell extracts) had reunited, and Cloud & co. defeat "Jenova Absolute." By this time, there is no reason for Jenova as a specimen (or what they call its 'head') to still live on. But as revealed FFVII:AC, it turns out they actually didn't get the job done, with Jenova and with Sephiroth. So although it doesn't necessarily have 'retcons' in a proper sense, Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children effectively wrecks a lot of what is accomplished and established in the original game.

In short, your retcons... aren't. They are things you personally did not like or made assumptions about that were shown to be false or unfounded.


What are the materials from around 1997 which you've used?

Memorial Album, a game script released from that time, which shows Tifa's date and the high highwind scene. In both versions.


This can plausibly be argued not to have been the basis for a romantic relationship, but rather to have been an event which took place between close friends who shared a closely connected past. Cloud's subconscious kept these tender/precious memories (which concerned Tifa's mother's death, Cloud and Tifa's fall from Mt Nibel, and Tifa's coma) hidden mostly due to past embarrassment of being blamed for putting the girl he liked in danger, when he had actually been trying to help her, and the detrimental affect this event had on the remainder of his childhood. EDIT: And although they served as his true original motivation to become a SOLDIER - wanting to transcend the other boys and get Tifa to notice him - these feelings didn't carry over into his present state.

Then why reaffirm them so?


They were only a catalyst, and Cloud completely forgets about this original motivation for most of the game. Only the young boy deep within his consciousness remembers it.

Cloud is not actually HIMSELF most of the game, and does not have access to the whole of his memories. And then later he believes himself to be a mere simulacra of the real Cloud, and yet he still wishes for Tifa to get to meet the real Cloud.


This is, of course, the high affection version. In the low affection version, Cloud does not acknowledge calling out to Tifa's heart,

Yes he does. "So it was Tifa..." means he heard hers in return.


and nothing physical takes place between the two that night. The high affection version, if i'm not mistaken, has been considered canon only since the 2007 Ultimania.

No, it's been canon since long before then, it just TOOK the Ultimania to convince the diehards.


Cloud is NOT fighting for his memories of Tifa.

Cloud
"I know why I'm fighting."
"I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that."
"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."
"What about you all?"
"I want all of you to find that something within yourselves."
"If you don't find it, then that's okay too."
"You can't fight without a reason, right?"
"So, I won't hold it against you if you don't come back."

(He nods. Cid rubs the back of his head and turns to the pilot. The scene
fades to black.)

QED, Enigma.


The "butt touch," if i get what you're referring to, was more of a touch to the back of his leg above the knee, to help/'make sure' Cloud was able to climb all the way onto the ledge. Even if she was tenderly/erotically touching his ass there (which it doesn't appear that she was) it only shows Tifa's affection for Cloud, not his affection for her.

It shows he's willing to let her touch his upper inner thigh. The name butt touch is simply for ease of speaking.


Still does not indicate a romantic relationship.

So what DOES, in your opinion? Being sad that someone died?
So Cecil wanted to shag Tellah? Zack wanted to smurf Angeal? OK had the hots for Aria? Krile was considering incest with Galuf?


I answered the way that I did because I was short on time and I did not expect that you folks do not believe there is ANYTHING that REMOTELY suggests that Cloud MIGHT HAVE HAD affection for Aeris. Now I'm not saying that any one instance of the following offers all the proof that CloudxAeris was intended to be canon in the original game. At the most I'm trying to convey that the game either leaves it as ambiguous OR gives Aeris a SLIGHT edge. Here's a few non-optional scenes to consider:

Cait Sith's prediction: Although he was wrong about the two living happily ever after together, the context surrounding the prediction has CloudxAeris overtones: Cloud agrees to pose with Aeris as the prediction is made; "Interrupted by Fireworks," a sentimental tune, starts playing as soon as Cait Sith comes upon his prediction; Tifa, if in the party, becomes fed up and turns away jealously. (Why would she react this way if there was absolutely no reason to believe there was something between Aeris and Cloud at the time?)

Cait Sith has always been noted by the creators as a charlatan. His prediction is blatantly shown null and void a short time later.
Tifa's jealousy does not indicate there is anything between Cloud and Aerith.


Cloud's dream of Aeris in the sleeping forest: AerisxCloud implications are made when Cloud and Aeris fall slowly together to the ground, and when Cloud tries to run after Aeris as if 'pursuing her' and not wanting her to leave. I will concur, however, that there may be many different interpretations of this scene.

SHE contacts him mentally, says something he does not understand, and he goes 'wait, WHAT?'
Then sepiroth shows up. Clephiroth undertones, eh?


The Ending: Aeris' and Cloud's souls (or whatever you want to call their out-of-body existences) reach out to each other before Cloud snaps back into reality and into his own body.

Aerith leads Cloud back to Tifa, so he can run and save Tifa succesfully, bringing a positive end to the arc started by his failure to stop her falling and her getting injured.
Totally the opposite of C/A, really.



An answer from the Planet...the Promised Land...I think I can meet her...there.

Here Cloud is obviously expressing a personal desire to meet Aeris and says that she can be found in the Promised Land, which we all know is a very personal place/state of mind. Therefore by saying "I can meet her... there", he makes it clear that: 1) He's not too concerned with Tifa or the others meeting her, and 2) he's planning on meeting with Aeris in a way which the others cannot. Now Tifa, surprised and/or taken by what Cloud has just said, responds with "Yeah, let's go meet her." She, not Cloud, is the one to apply his statement to herself and the others, since after all, Aeris is missed by everyone. Although it is a sentimental line, it is not said with the same level of depth as Cloud's line is, and it really doesn't seem to be what Cloud has in mind--Because when you put it all into perspective, Cloud sees meeting Aeris as something which is a significant part of, if not wholly in itself, his personal Promised Land. Also, Tifa's reaction to Cloud's line (both in her line and in her facial expressions) can be interpreted a couple of different ways: Either she 1) is very touched by Cloud expressing the significance of the dear friend she recently lost, or 2) she is becoming aware of who is truly on Cloud's mind, accepts it, and resigns from her pursuit of him, or 3) Both.

Cloud is telling Tifa that there is a chance that they can meet Aerith and other fallen comrades in the afterlife in the case the answer from the planet is no. Further, Cloud expresses realization, it is TIFA who expressed intent. AerTi FTW!
The UO backs that one up, BTW.



Of much greater significance, however, is Cloud’s line from the ending of the game about meeting Aerith again. Until the Compilation of FFVII came along, this line was seen by many Cleriths as the clencher that Cloud preferred Aerith, and by many Clotis and neutrals as the line that left things just ambiguous enough.

Though I would have once argued otherwise, looking at things more objectively today, I have to agree that this line left matters in the original game more in favor of Aerith than of Tifa. Due to the existence of the newer Compilation materials, however, that no longer holds true in the wider scheme of things.

As a critic of the Compilation & materials, I agree with SoS, that the ending tips the scale slightly in the direction of Aeris when looking only at the original game. Aside from that, I think the game is pretty ambiguous on the matter. A lot depends on how much weight you place on certain aspects of the game, really.

He is correct that the english version made it sound more ambigous, but the original line does not contain identifying pronouns, so it could easily be taken in the singular or the plural. The UO says the idea is expressed to Tifa, so it only makes sense to be in the plural.
There are some things that you can mistake as pro-C/A, but the entire story of FF7 is built around a giant red herring, so you should look back at these things in light of the new evidence, in light of what we learn about Cloud in his mind, what constitutes the core of Cloud and what the creators thought we should be told about him when we first meet the true him.
Why have them have his last words before falling to his apparent death be to wish Tifa well in finding the real him? Importantly, why deliberately undercut all the C/A interactions by the spectre of Zack and Cait Sith's prediction with her death if they wanted us to truly take a romance out it? It makes no sense to present us something and show it to be hollow if it's supposed to be a true example.


Yes, it certainly is canon, but I'm not going for 2009 canon. I've been discussing a VERY alternate point of view since I do not accept anything after ~2003 (the Compilation) into my own personal continuity. This basically leaves us with the original game only.

Memorial Album.
Latest release was the revision in 1999.


Well it's obvious that the prediction itself was BS, considering what happens... but I was talking moar about the atmosphere surrounding the scene.

The atmosphere is a giant red herring. The scene is there to soften you up for a suckerpunch. Plus, the music continues on through Cait's entire death sequence too. It's there to ham up his 'sacrifice'


Yes it most certainly does. And like the forest scene, it can be interpreted a couple of ways and alone cannot be definitive support for anything.

Your latter suggestion is definately the more valid interpretation; remember that I said there can be many different (non CxA) interpretations of this scene based on your leanings. However, he already did apologize for beating her earlier in the dream, and she did tell him where she was going. And when she turned to run off, since he was dreaming, he wasn't able to hold her back (shown by him reaching out) or follow her like he wanted (running without going anywhere).

Cloud, after he wakes up, is afraid he might end up killing Aeris or doing something terrible if he follows her. It is for this reason that he does not want to go, even though deep down, as shown by his hazy and abstract dream, he does want to follow her (for whatever reason).

Funny how it takes Tifa's pep talk to convince him. And it's not a dream. It's a communication. And Cloud goes after because he still has questions she did not answer.


When Cloud snaps back into his own body, Tifa is frantically reaching out to him and shouting to him because he's in mortal peril and she's trying to awaken him and save him from falling into the lifestream. This situation is a far cry from the dream-like, idealistic moment he was having just seconds earlier, where Cloud and Aeris reached out to each other as if to be reunited. A lot of people also see the transition from Aeris' hand to Tifa's as symbolic of Cloud choosing Tifa over Aeris, and had Cloud not suddenly been thrust into a life-or-death situation, I'd probably agree. However, that's not the case.

I see it as Cloud getting punted back to his body, in yet another 'You don't belong here' moment.
Now, what shows me he's chosen Tifa is him running over, catching her, staying by her, holding her hand, etc. throughout the rest of the ending, instead of diving headfirst into the lifestream to 'find the promised land.'

Shishikabob
11-23-2009, 04:41 AM
"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."
I think people think he's referring to Aerith here.


I see it as Cloud getting punted back to his body, in yet another 'You don't belong here' moment.
Now, what shows me he's chosen Tifa is him running over, catching her, staying by her, holding her hand, etc. throughout the rest of the ending, instead of diving headfirst into the lifestream to 'find the promised land.'
Well come on, I mean he's not going to suicide XD
But I do see Cloti undertones in the end, myself.

I mean maybe Aerith was helping him wake up, but in the end it was Tifa's hand he was reaching for so that says something to me.

Ryushikaze
11-23-2009, 05:09 AM
"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."
I think people think he's referring to Aerith here.

How the hell is Aerith a personal memory? EVERYONE is fighting for Aerith. The only 'personal' memories we've been told about are the ones from the lifestream.


Well come on, I mean he's not going to suicide XD
But I do see Cloti undertones in the end, myself.

Hey, if he 'wants to be with her again no matter what,' that is the fastest route. Certainly faster than never going to search and moving in with the other woman.

Shishikabob
11-23-2009, 05:11 AM
How the hell is Aerith a personal memory? EVERYONE is fighting for Aerith. The only 'personal' memories we've been told about are the ones from the lifestream.
No idea... but if you see the game to be ttly Clerith... that line comes out as Clerith... somehow.

Ryushikaze
11-23-2009, 05:44 AM
Yes, but 'Ow, my ass' comes out TTLY Clerith to those people.

These are the same people who have lied/ been duped on numerous occasions. They eagerly drink the Kool Aid.

silentenigma
11-24-2009, 05:33 AM
I know that the ultimania was just about the game, but due to the time of its release - and the fact that its character sections reference the compilation like you said - suggests that the scenario section could very well have been affected by the outlook of the compilation. After all, when put into perspective with the compilation (OtWtaS:CoT, Advent Children) the 'high affection' version is the only one that really makes any sense. It's logical that the ultimania, then, would reflect this.

It was also featured in both Memorial Albums, which well predate the compilation.
If the Memorial Albums also included the low affection version like you said, then it really doesn't do anything to establish one version as canon over the other.



Cloud being able to speek coherently BEFORE being found (and 'awakened') by Tifa on the streets of Midgar.
Cloud remaining hidden from Shinra troops, rather than the troops finding him and leaving him for dead.
The previous version was a recollection by Cloud. It is prone to error.
The "Shinra mansion basement" flashback was included in the original game to explain the truth of how Cloud got from Nibelheim to Midgar. Do you really think that in 1997 the developers would knowingly include "memory error" in this flashback and mislead its audience? It's obviously a truth from the original game which they decided to scratch out later on. After all, the "Cloud! Run!" (Zack says this to Cloud as they are being attacked by Shinra) flashback in FFVII:AC, which resembles the situation presented by the original game, was removed in FFVII:ACC after Crisis Core came out. If this version had been seen by the developers as an "erroneous memory in Cloud's mind" then they wouldn't have had any reason taken it out to fit with Crisis Core. The developers are covering up their incongruities.



Cloud being able to speak or not was not actually specifically mentioned one way or another, previously.

Actually, check out this excerpt of the Final Fantasy VII script:

(The scene fades in to show the Sector 7 train station. It is raining.
Cloud, his sword across his lap, slumps by the stairway to the train
platform. The train conductor is looking down at him as Tifa enters.)

"What's the matter?"

(The screen flashes electrically white.)

Cloud
"ohhh..."

"......poor kid."

Cloud
"Ooouugh......"

(Tifa runs up to Cloud as the train conductor leaves.)

Tifa
"Are you all right?"

Cloud
"oo... uh... agh"

(She kneels by him and tries to lift him up. The screen flashes
electrically white again.)

Cloud
"Uh... uh... Tifa...?"
(Again.)

Cloud
"Tifa...?"
(Again. He stands.)

Cloud
"Tifa!"
Tifa
"...................?"
(She brushes his face.)

Tifa
"Oh, Cloud!"
(Cloud raises his sword in an offensive posture.)

Cloud
"That's right. I'm Cloud."

Cloud is clearly shown to be incapable of coherent speech before Tifa comes upon him, and he is shown to be similarly incapable in the Shinra Mansion Basement flashback. If you think that all this is an 'unfounded assumption' on my part, then I'm sorry that you need FFVII to have flashed in big neon letters on the screen, "CLOUD IS OUT OF HIS MIND AND CANNOT SPEAK BETWEEN HIS ESCAPE FROM NIBELHEIM AND BEING FOUND BY TIFA" for it to be a safe assumption. And you can't argue that this (Tifa's) memory is "prone to error" in this scene. It is a representation of the truth, especially due to the fact that the scene includes things which Tifa did not even witness herself (Such as Cloud losing his composure as Tifa was turned away).



This also is not a retcon. This is just information you don't like. Zack falls through the roof in a different location. This hole is there in FF7.

O RLY?
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/d/d6/FFVII_Sector_5_Church_outside.jpg
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/a/ad/FFVII-Sector5_ChurchRooftop.jpg
(Sunlight shines through in only one area)
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/7/7f/FFVII-Sector5_Church.jpg

Because I see only one hole.



In short, your retcons... aren't. They are things you personally did not like or made assumptions about that were shown to be false or unfounded.

I never said my problems with AC were retcons, but are you seriously saying it's UNFOUNDED for one to ASSUME in 1998 that when the screen read "THE END," it was really THE END? That Jenova and Sephiroth had been defeated once and for all; that Cloud had been cleansed of Jenova by the lifestream? In a game which was apart of a series known to never have produced a sequel? FFVII:AC cheapens what is accomplished/established in FFVII for the simple fact that it "reveals" (or more like 'fabricates') that these accomplishments were never actually made. Just consider the fact that for AC (As the AC Reunion Files book states) the staff decided definitely to bring Sephiroth back before they could even come up with a reason for it! (They had to tackle the issue: In order to bring Sephiroth back, how could they find a way to circumvent the ending which they had originally intended to offer complete closure to the story?) Well, after turning their backs to the integrity of the original narrative, they found a way; But this time around, they were smarter in AC by including Sephiroth's line, "I'll never be a memory." We now have to assume that Sephiroth could come back any time... And Square has set themselves up to bring him back again and again and again, arguably without raising any qualms concerning the closure of the movie. And the fact that one has to give Square Enix the benefit of the doubt so many times in order to fit everything in the compilatioin together logically is alienating to me. I'd like to again refer to what Squall of Seed has to on the matter of inconsistencies, this time in his lengthy FFVII plot analysis. The last section addresses the subject of inconsistencies. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/portable/psp/file/920785/39217)

Regardless, you seem to accept that I reject FFVII installments and materials released after ~2003 when debating the love triangle topic.



This can plausibly be argued not to have been the basis for a romantic relationship, but rather to have been an event which took place between close friends who shared a closely connected past. Cloud's subconscious kept these tender/precious memories (which concerned Tifa's mother's death, Cloud and Tifa's fall from Mt Nibel, and Tifa's coma) hidden mostly due to past embarrassment of being blamed for putting the girl he liked in danger, when he had actually been trying to help her, and the detrimental affect this event had on the remainder of his childhood. EDIT: And although they served as his true original motivation to become a SOLDIER - wanting to transcend the other boys and get Tifa to notice him - these feelings didn't carry over into his present state.

Then why reaffirm them so?

They were integral to his sense of identity leading up to the Nibelheim incident. Without 'reaffirming' these childhood memories, Cloud may not have been able to regain himself in the lifestream.


Cloud is not actually HIMSELF most of the game, and does not have access to the whole of his memories. And then later he believes himself to be a mere simulacra of the real Cloud, and yet he still wishes for Tifa to get to meet the real Cloud.



Cloud
"Especially you, Tifa. I'm really sorry."
"You've been good to me...... I don't know what to say..."

(He shakes his head.)

Cloud
"I never lived up to being 'Cloud'."
"Tifa... Maybe one day you'll meet the real 'Cloud'."

(He walks forward and turns to Hojo. Tifa holds her face and sinks to the
ground, crying.)

Cloud's statements in this scene are based on Sephiroth convincing him that there is another Cloud out there somewhere who actually grew up in Nibelheim with Tifa. Tifa had been trying to convince Cloud that he was the real Cloud, but he no longer believes her. Seeing her in a mental breakdown, Cloud unsympathetically apologizes for not living up to the real Cloud and coolly wishes her luck in finding "the real Cloud." In essence, Cloud, in the state of mind he was in, does not really care if Tifa ever meets the real Cloud, but rather uses his statement almost as rhetoric to try an convince him that another cloud exists and to make his apology seem sincere, even as he abandons and betrays her.

Also, while Cloud is not in the persona of his true self at the beginning of the game (but rather a mix of Zack and Tifa's memories of him), he still is, you know, self-aware as a human being and continues to build upon his experiences and gain memories. This is evident in the fact that as the game goes on, even way before the lifestream scene, Cloud becomes less and less the cocky mercenary jerk (Zack) he had been when he had just awakened form Mako poisoning. This is why we do not notice a stark contrast between Cloud's personality at the beginning of disk two and his personality at the end of disk two; He had gradually become more and more like the real Cloud on his own, with the only exception being his frequent mental breakdowns. This is why Aeris is eventually able to sense the 'real Cloud within' on the Aeris date ("No, but you're different") and differentiate him from Zack. So when he remembers his motivations of the past (wanting to join SOLDIER to impress Tifa), it doesn't mean that he automatically throws away all the more recent (and in my opinion, more relevent and timely) motivations and memories which compells him in the present (Save planet, defeat Sephiroth) even though they were developed in a time where he was not completely himself on the surface. Also, this is why his earlier crush on Tifa may not have necessarily transferred over to the present as affection.



This is, of course, the high affection version. In the low affection version, Cloud does not acknowledge calling out to Tifa's heart,

Yes he does. "So it was Tifa..." means he heard hers in return.
He acknowledges Tifa calling out to him, but he does not acknowledge him calling out to her, regardless of what Tifa believes. It's the 'low affection' version for a reason, you know.

"But deep in my heart I heard you calling my name... Or at least I thought I did..."
(Cloud looks away into the distance.)
Cloud "I see."
Cloud "I think I've heard it, too. Then, it was Tifa's voice."



No, it's been canon since long before then, it just TOOK the Ultimania to convince the diehards.
In your honest humble opinion.



Cloud is NOT fighting for his memories of Tifa.

Cloud
"I know why I'm fighting."
"I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that."
"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."
"What about you all?"
"I want all of you to find that something within yourselves."
"If you don't find it, then that's okay too."
"You can't fight without a reason, right?"
"So, I won't hold it against you if you don't come back."

(He nods. Cid rubs the back of his head and turns to the pilot. The scene
fades to black.)

Given the earlier context which I cited ("this is a personal feud. I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past.") and what I've written above, I find it more likely that Cloud's 'personal memory' refers to his feud with Sephiroth, who had destroyed his hometown and his childhood dreams (Cloud had highly respected and trusted Sephiroth, after all). It is my take that by calling his memory "very personal," He is just making it clear to the others that they should discover what truly motivates them (to fight 'for themselves'), aside from the common goal of saving the planet. Cloud earlier establishes this memory to be his sufferings at the hand of Sephiroth. And Just before the group confronts Sephiroth, after everyone else spills their personal philosophy classic FF-style, Cloud's last line does well to confirm this: "Aeris's memories... Our memories...We came... to tell you... our memories... Come Planet! Show us
your answer!And Sephiroth! To the settling of everything!!"



It shows he's willing to let her touch his upper inner thigh. The name butt touch is simply for ease of speaking.
Mid outer thigh, really. It's really not all that suggestive. I would let anyone touch me there, especially through thick army pants.


Tifa's jealousy does not indicate there is anything between Cloud and Aerith.

So what DOES it indicate then? Clearly Tifa is in some way jealous of Aerith in the scene. And obviously Cloud is content with standing next to Aerith as their fortunes are read, and at the very least he is content with what Cait Sith has to say. It's not like Cloud chimes in with "Heh heh... well you know how Cait Sith's fortunes usually turn out!" after they're given the fortune.



Aerith leads Cloud back to Tifa, so he can run and save Tifa succesfully, bringing a positive end to the arc started by his failure to stop her falling and her getting injured.

If "Aerith leading Cloud back to Tifa" was the developers' true intent for this scene, they certainly did it in a very obscure/poor manner. Aerith extends her hand out to Cloud with her palm face down (implying 'want' or 'longing') rather than face up (beckoning/leading). Cloud also reaches up to her in awe and wonder, implying he's returning this gesture of longing. As highly sentimental music plays. Then the vision simply disappears, showing no indication that Aerith was the one who intentionally awakened Cloud so that he could save Tifa. And as Cloud returns to his own body, it seems more obvious that he was awakened by either Tifa's screams (NOT necessarily symbolic, mind you) or the turbulence all around him.



Cloud is telling Tifa that there is a chance that they can meet Aerith and other fallen comrades in the afterlife in the case the answer from the planet is no. Cloud expresses realization, TIFA expressed intent.
AerTi FTW!
The UO backs that one up, BTW.


Though I don't accept everything that the UO states anyway due to its time of release, could you cite where it says that? I skimmed the guide but couldn't find it.




He is correct that the english version made it sound more ambigous, but the original line does not contain identifying pronouns, so it could easily be taken in the singular or the plural. The UO says the idea is expressed to Tifa, so it only makes sense to be in the plural.


It seems that you're basing your knowledge of the original japanese line solely on implications from the UO rather than the actual script itself... I'm just quite skeptical because this interpretation seems to contradict the game's definition of The Promised Land, in that it is very personal for each individual.




Plus, the music continues on through Cait's entire death sequence too. It's there to ham up his 'sacrifice'

There is still something about the music starting as soon as he comes to his 'prediction' rather than at his line "Thanks for believing me...." It gives the former ironic scene a sense of sentimentality in my opinion, as if expressing the tragedy of the fact that his prediction is doomed not to come to pass---showing that the "together happily ever after" idea could be based on mutual feelings, and that it is a significant opportunity which Sephiroth takes away when he kills Aeris.



Funny how it takes Tifa's pep talk to convince him.
And Barret. So really, it's a combination of two of his best friends knocking him into shape that gets Cloud to shakily agree to go.


Cloud goes after because he still has questions she did not answer.
The entire group, including Cloud, goes after Aeris because of their concern for her safety since she went alone.



I see it as Cloud getting punted back to his body, in yet another 'You don't belong here' moment.
I agree, but only in a temporary sense. Cloud had stuff to take care of before he'd go and find his Promised Land. Like saving Tifa's ass, helping everyone get out alive, getting himself out alive, etc.


Now, what shows me he's chosen Tifa is him running over, catching her, staying by her,
I see Cloud catching her as him 1) closing the arc that you mentioned earlier, which was a symbol of his weakness, and showing that he is now strong and capable, and 2) not being a total jerk; actually caring for the well being of a dear friend. Now if the player had chosen for Cloud to love Tifa, then the emotion in this scene is all the more intense and it can serve to strengthen the protective bond which the two have. Yet at the same time, Cloud was really just doing what any true friend would do in that situation.


holding her hand, etc. throughout the rest of the ending,
Are you talking about that split second where we see Cloud grabbing Tifa's arm and holding on for dear life to keep them both from falling off the bridge of the airship as it's falling out of the sky? Another practical action in a desperate situation. Yet just minutes later when the ship is flying again and everyone is in suspense concerning the fate of the Planet, just before Tifa spots the lifestream burst from the ground, we see Tifa, Cloud, and Red XIII on screen. It's the perfect opportunity for Cloud to be 'close' to Tifa, possibly to comfort her or to spend with her what could be their last moments together or something. Yet Cloud is not at all particularly close to Tifa here and is rather more concerned with Red XIII to be honest.



instead of diving headfirst into the lifestream to 'find the promised land.'
I don't think Cloud's Promised Land ever was supposed to involved suicide, or death... but perhaps something more abstract.


Well this post is ridiculously too long.. or at least it feels like it. I think i was intending to have a conclusion, but it's pretty late and I'm tired. In my mind, the majority of my positions still stand, both in this post and my previous post. If I get any additional responses to either, I might not really respond to them because life is getting busy lately. Everyone just remember that my standpoint on this whole thing really is more neutral than it I probably make it out to be, and that I'm not really going for canon since the original game is basically the only thing i accept into my personal continuity, whether or not you agree with my reasons for doing so.

Shishikabob
11-24-2009, 07:47 AM
Aerith extends her hand out to Cloud with her palm face down (implying 'want' or 'longing') rather than face up (beckoning/leading).
... what?

Ryushikaze
11-24-2009, 08:27 AM
It was also featured in both Memorial Albums, which well predate the compilation.
If the Memorial Albums also included the low affection version like you said, then it really doesn't do anything to establish one version as canon over the other.

:sigh: Reread that, SE... I said NOTHING about the Low Highwind version being in Memorable Album. I said High version was in both Memorial Albums.


The "Shinra mansion basement" flashback was included in the original game to explain the truth of how Cloud got from Nibelheim to Midgar. Do you really think that in 1997 the developers would knowingly include "memory error" in this flashback and mislead its audience? It's obviously a truth from the original game which they decided to scratch out later on. After all, the "Cloud! Run!" (Zack says this to Cloud as they are being attacked by Shinra) flashback in FFVII:AC, which resembles the situation presented by the original game, was removed in FFVII:ACC after Crisis Core came out. If this version had been seen by the developers as an "erroneous memory in Cloud's mind" then they wouldn't have had any reason taken it out to fit with Crisis Core. The developers are covering up their incongruities.

"Cloud Run" isn't in the original flashback. It actually hails from LO originally. What is presented in the FF7 ACC flashback doesn't really contradict either FF7 or CC. In fact, upon double checking the FF7 and CC version both show Zack dyig in the same way to the same 3 grunts, and the CC version doesn't show either way about them checking and disregarding Cloud.
Again, your retcon- isn't.



Actually, check out this excerpt of the Final Fantasy VII script:
-snip-

Cloud is clearly shown to be incapable of coherent speech before Tifa comes upon him, and he is shown to be similarly incapable in the Shinra Mansion Basement flashback. If you think that all this is an 'unfounded assumption' on my part, then I'm sorry that you need FFVII to have flashed in big neon letters on the screen, "CLOUD IS OUT OF HIS MIND AND CANNOT SPEAK BETWEEN HIS ESCAPE FROM NIBELHEIM AND BEING FOUND BY TIFA" for it to be a safe assumption. And you can't argue that this (Tifa's) memory is "prone to error" in this scene. It is a representation of the truth, especially due to the fact that the scene includes things which Tifa did not even witness herself (Such as Cloud losing his composure as Tifa was turned away).

Or, OR, Cloud can simply be repeating things said to him by Zack and not be coherent. Or even he becomes lucid for a single moment before sliding back into dementia. Hard to accept, I know. Seriously, these are the giant gaping plot holes you hate the compilation for?




This also is not a retcon. This is just information you don't like. Zack falls through the roof in a different location. This hole is there in FF7.

O RLY?
Because I see only one hole.

I was in error about the two holes. However, the hole that exists is QUITE large, seems to exist beforehand anyways, and there's a surprising lack of any extra junk littering the floor around Cloud, just the floorboards that were already pushed out of the way.
Put another way, the assumption that Cloud punched that hole through the roof of the already in disrepair church is highly unlikely. Similarly so that Zack punched through either. Unless Zack punched the hole and Cloud widened it up a bit.


I never said my problems with AC were retcons, but are you seriously saying it's UNFOUNDED for one to ASSUME in 1998 that when the screen read "THE END," it was really THE END?-snip-

You listed them among your other retcons, so yes.
And the end doesn't mean no sequel. By your logic FFIV:TA is doing the same thing.
And Sephiroth can't 'come back at any time' and I'm aware there are inconsistencies, but smurf, compared to SW they're nada.


Regardless, you seem to accept that I reject FFVII installments and materials released after ~2003 when debating the love triangle topic.

I'll play your game, yes. Not sure why 2003 is the magic cutoff date, though.


They were integral to his sense of identity leading up to the Nibelheim incident. Without 'reaffirming' these childhood memories, Cloud may not have been able to regain himself in the lifestream.

Narratively, why affirm THESE memories, which all feature Tifa, and not completely ancillary memories? Why have Cloud repeat his desire to impress Tifa specifically, to state that he'll definitely be please as punch to learn that she did become interest if it is purely fillial? Hell, why tell us of his interest AT ALL when learning of his true self if it's irrelevant to who he is now?


Cloud's statements in this scene are based on Sephiroth convincing him that there is another Cloud out there somewhere who actually grew up in Nibelheim with Tifa. Tifa had been trying to convince Cloud that he was the real Cloud, but he no longer believes her. Seeing her in a mental breakdown, Cloud unsympathetically apologizes for not living up to the real Cloud and coolly wishes her luck in finding "the real Cloud." In essence, Cloud, in the state of mind he was in, does not really care if Tifa ever meets the real Cloud, but rather uses his statement almost as rhetoric to try an convince him that another cloud exists and to make his apology seem sincere, even as he abandons and betrays her.

Unsympathetically?
Coolly? Does not Care?
Sir, you're talking out of your ass and I feel no hesitation in saying it. Seriously, what makes you think that at this moment, with Cloud apologies for what he's done to everyone, Cloud would be such an insufferable jackass as to act in the way you describe. Are you just that smurfing desperate to refuse to admit that the game itself showed him expressing concern and sympathy to Tifa's emotions? Are you just that adamant about shipping him pink?


Also, while Cloud is not in the persona of his true self at the beginning of the game (but rather a mix of Zack and Tifa's memories of him), he still is, you know, self-aware as a human being and continues to build upon his experiences and gain memories. This is evident in the fact that as the game goes on, even way before the lifestream scene, Cloud becomes less and less the cocky mercenary jerk (Zack) he had been when he had just awakened form Mako poisoning. This is why we do not notice a stark contrast between Cloud's personality at the beginning of disk two and his personality at the end of disk two; He had gradually become more and more like the real Cloud on his own, with the only exception being his frequent mental breakdowns. This is why Aeris is eventually able to sense the 'real Cloud within' on the Aeris date ("No, but you're different") and differentiate him from Zack. So when he remembers his motivations of the past (wanting to join SOLDIER to impress Tifa), it doesn't mean that he automatically throws away all the more recent (and in my opinion, more relevent and timely) motivations and memories which compells him in the present (Save planet, defeat Sephiroth) even though they were developed in a time where he was not completely himself on the surface. Also, this is why his earlier crush on Tifa may not have necessarily transferred over to the present as affection.

You're saying a lot of nothing here, and shot yourself in the foot, too. You've admitted that As Cloud goes on, and is reminded of things LIKE his promise and regains various memories, he becomes more and more like himself, more sympathetic, more kind, etc. And then you say that he is the biggest jackass in the world at the tail end of all this. So let's look back- Cloud, not quite himself, does not have access to his memories, acts a bit of an asshole. Tifa reminds him of the promise, and he suddenly becomes a lot nicer to people. Time goes on, his shell cracks, his memories return, he's nicer to people. Why then wouldn't his crush also return either now or at some point? Why would he act like a Jackass to Tifa while apologizing to Red or Barrett at the same time? Is he being unsympathetic and cool to them too?


He acknowledges Tifa calling out to him, but he does not acknowledge him calling out to her, regardless of what Tifa believes. It's the 'low affection' version for a reason, you know.

Because we call it that. No other reason. And in that version, Cloud acknowledges hearing her heart calling to his after she expresses the idea that she thought she heard his calling and called back. He says 'I see. I think I've heard it, too. Then, it was Tifa's voice.' In other words, Cloud is affirming that she heard his by saying he thought he heard hers also.


In your honest humble opinion.

Memorial. ALBUM.


Given the earlier context which I cited ("this is a personal feud. I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past.") and what I've written above, I find it more likely that Cloud's 'personal memory' refers to his feud with Sephiroth, who had destroyed his hometown and his childhood dreams (Cloud had highly respected and trusted Sephiroth, after all). It is my take that by calling his memory "very personal," He is just making it clear to the others that they should discover what truly motivates them (to fight 'for themselves'), aside from the common goal of saving the planet. Cloud earlier establishes this memory to be his sufferings at the hand of Sephiroth. And Just before the group confronts Sephiroth, after everyone else spills their personal philosophy classic FF-style, Cloud's last line does well to confirm this: "Aeris's memories... Our memories...We came... to tell you... our memories... Come Planet! Show us
your answer!And Sephiroth! To the settling of everything!!"

'Very personal memory' has positive connotations. At the very least it's not spoken of in any way the vitriol Sephiroth is otherwise spoken of. Meanwhile, Cloud's memories re: Tifa- that tell us of his motivation as a person are called Private and Tender Memories. After this point, the next time Cloud even mentions the word memory is when he discusses his motivation for fighting.
Further, everyone leaves to find what they are fighting for. Cloud and Tifa stay behind. In both versions, Cloud speaks of everyone having an irreplacable something they are fighting for. This does not suggest blood feud with Sephiroth. This suggests something he does not wish to lose to Meteor.


Mid outer thigh, really. It's really not all that suggestive. I would let anyone touch me there, especially through thick army pants.

Upper inner, and you'd let any woman just cop a feel there whenever? Brave man.


So what DOES it indicate then? Clearly Tifa is in some way jealous of Aerith in the scene. And obviously Cloud is content with standing next to Aerith as their fortunes are read, and at the very least he is content with what Cait Sith has to say. It's not like Cloud chimes in with "Heh heh... well you know how Cait Sith's fortunes usually turn out!" after they're given the fortune.

Cloud... doesn't care. He says nothing positive or negative, makes no reaction, at all... It's like he's completely ambivalent about the nonsense Cait has just spouted, like all the other times.


If "Aerith leading Cloud back to Tifa" was the developers' true intent for this scene, they certainly did it in a very obscure/poor manner. Aerith extends her hand out to Cloud with her palm face down (implying 'want' or 'longing') rather than face up (beckoning/leading).

No she doesn't. She has her hand evenly vertical. Tifa's hand, however, is totally face down when we do see it.


Cloud also reaches up to her in awe and wonder, implying he's returning this gesture of longing.

AMAZING insight you have into Cloud's mind good sir based on a completely poleaxed expression!
Cloud reaches up towards the light long before there's anything to reach to. It's completely reactionary.


As highly sentimental music plays. Then the vision simply disappears, showing no indication that Aerith was the one who intentionally awakened Cloud so that he could save Tifa.

And after he saves Tifa, the panicked music ends, and that 'sentimental music' as you call it starts up again immediately.

[qutoe]And as Cloud returns to his own body, it seems more obvious that he was awakened by either Tifa's screams (NOT necessarily symbolic, mind you) or the turbulence all around him.[/quote]

NOT symbolic? I love how you're the final arbiter on what's symbolic and what's not. How would her screaming returning Cloud's mind from the depths of the lifestream itself NOT be of import to the story if that were the case?


Though I don't accept everything that the UO states anyway due to its time of release, could you cite where it says that? I skimmed the guide but couldn't find it.

P29 is where the 'Cloud tells Tifa' thing comes from, IIRC. The 'fallen comrades' is elsewhere. In any case, the blurb also says 'the one they go meet' as well.


It seems that you're basing your knowledge of the original japanese line solely on implications from the UO rather than the actual script itself... I'm just quite skeptical because this interpretation seems to contradict the game's definition of The Promised Land, in that it is very personal for each individual.

I'm basing my knowledge of the original line based on the lack of pronouns and Tifa's reaction of 'Let's' go meet giving the first line context. The promised land for both of them can be with their fallen friend, can it not?


There is still something about the music starting as soon as he comes to his 'prediction' rather than at his line "Thanks for believing me...." It gives the former ironic scene a sense of sentimentality in my opinion, as if expressing the tragedy of the fact that his prediction is doomed not to come to pass---showing that the "together happily ever after" idea could be based on mutual feelings, and that it is a significant opportunity which Sephiroth takes away when he kills Aeris.

OR... That it's all bunk in its entirety and hammed up for his 'dramatic death' like the rest of the sequence.


And Barret. So really, it's a combination of two of his best friends knocking him into shape that gets Cloud to shakily agree to go.

Even better, it takes two people to convince him to do something you say he 'really wants to do.'


The entire group, including Cloud, goes after Aeris because of their concern for her safety since she went alone.

Yes. So how does that make Cloud going special, again? And you're equivocating here, or just can't follow the discussion. We were talking about his heading after her in the communique.


I agree, but only in a temporary sense. Cloud had stuff to take care of before he'd go and find his Promised Land. Like saving Tifa's ass, helping everyone get out alive, getting himself out alive, etc.

Why does he need to get himself out alive?
And Cloud does find his promised land. It's being surrounded by friend's and family. But then again, that's post 2k3. EVIL EVIL 2K3+.


I see Cloud catching her as him 1) closing the arc that you mentioned earlier, which was a symbol of his weakness, and showing that he is now strong and capable, and 2) not being a total jerk; actually caring for the well being of a dear friend. Now if the player had chosen for Cloud to love Tifa, then the emotion in this scene is all the more intense and it can serve to strengthen the protective bond which the two have. Yet at the same time, Cloud was really just doing what any true friend would do in that situation.

You don't 'choose' for Cloud to love anyone. And you're saying that the closing of an Arc- and arc started 15 years prior Cloud's time by the failure to save a girl from falling, a girl he had a crush on for the entire rest of his life until at least his intubation, and which was later reaffirmed when we finally get to learn and meet the real Cloud again- with the rescue of the girl the failure to rescue started the arc is just 'him doing what any true friend in that situation?' JUST? It's the oldest motivating factor we know of Cloud HAS. It's more than just being nice, it's coming full circle, with the promise, with his memories, in finally being the White Knight Tifa asked him to be, and doing it in time finally. There's romantic implications there whether Aerith went on the Date or Barret did.


Are you talking about that split second where we see Cloud grabbing Tifa's arm and holding on for dear life to keep them both from falling off the bridge of the airship as it's falling out of the sky? Another practical action in a desperate situation. Yet just minutes later when the ship is flying again and everyone is in suspense concerning the fate of the Planet, just before Tifa spots the lifestream burst from the ground, we see Tifa, Cloud, and Red XIII on screen. It's the perfect opportunity for Cloud to be 'close' to Tifa, possibly to comfort her or to spend with her what could be their last moments together or something. Yet Cloud is not at all particularly close to Tifa here and is rather more concerned with Red XIII to be honest.

I love how you just invent things here. First, see T,C, and Barret, but Cloud is quite Close to Tifa, and there's quite a gap between him and Barret, and very little of one between him and Tifa. Later, right after Red XII speaks, Cloud, yes, is looking at him, but then immediately and quickly returns his attention to Tifa. Even when looking at Red he's still close to Tifa Next we see, Red's not in shot any longer, and still being close to Tifa.


I don't think Cloud's Promised Land ever was supposed to involved suicide, or death... but perhaps something more abstract.

Like being surrounded by friends, family, and the living woman he loves?


Well this post is ridiculously too long.. or at least it feels like it. I think i was intending to have a conclusion, but it's pretty late and I'm tired. In my mind, the majority of my positions still stand, both in this post and my previous post. If I get any additional responses to either, I might not really respond to them because life is getting busy lately. Everyone just remember that my standpoint on this whole thing really is more neutral than it I probably make it out to be, and that I'm not really going for canon since the original game is basically the only thing i accept into my personal continuity, whether or not you agree with my reasons for doing so.

And my point is that the original story of FF7 is based around a gigantic red herring, a reevaluation of Cloud based on said red herring, and that all implications of having a choice in the matter of Cloud's romantic interest made utterly null and void by the revelations of the lifestream sequence and the light it sheds on both previous and later actions.

line_genrou
11-24-2009, 11:57 PM
This is going nowhere,really.
But is fun to read :p

Shishikabob
11-25-2009, 04:48 AM
This is going nowhere,really.
Most LTDs usually do.

line_genrou
11-27-2009, 01:03 AM
Aerith extends her hand out to Cloud with her palm face down (implying 'want' or 'longing') rather than face up (beckoning/leading)

LOL.
Ok,that's just pushing it a little.

Kyros
11-30-2009, 08:34 PM
so after reading all this I find it kinda entertaining of all the random bs people seem to come up with just to support stuff. I'm still convinced Cloud never loved Aeris ever but w/e

Shishikabob
11-30-2009, 10:15 PM
I've heard worse...

ever heard this one:
The two monkeys in FFX-2 named Summer and Winter somehow prove Clerith... something about Cloud's personality is cold and Aerith's is warm... how about that one?

Ryushikaze
12-01-2009, 03:19 AM
FFG's latest is worse, though. Cait Sith's predictions are true. The 'you will lose something dear' is true because Aerith is destined to die. The 'bright future/ invite me to the wedding' prediction is true because Aerith hasn't left and isn't yet on the path to her death.

I'll let you take a moment to figure out why this argument doesn't make any sense, apart from it being totally baseless.

Shishikabob
12-01-2009, 04:35 AM
No no, she changed it, now she says the first one means Cloud will lose his sanity which is true. Therefore the second one is true because Aerith isn't on the path to death yet... or some such.

also monkeys

EDIT:
NM i think she was just saying it COULD mean Cloud would lose his sanity.

and more monkey s.

Kyros
12-01-2009, 05:23 AM
I think the monkeys are just there b/c monkeys are awesome, and I think CloudxAeris is just some random notion people get since you get to use her in your party before Tifa so they get in their head she must be the love interest then just dont look at it any other way ever despite it being obvious she's just some person that obsessed over Cloud and wouldnt give him 2 inches to breath.

Ryushikaze
12-01-2009, 04:23 PM
Actually, you CAN'T get Aerith in your party before Tifa. Tifa first joins up for the Sec 5 Reactor assault. Aerith doesn't even get named til after the end of that sequence.
But yes, CxA is basically based on the idea that she MUST be the love interest, based on nothing at all, really.

Chloe.
12-01-2009, 05:27 PM
I vote Tifa, can't be bothered to explain why but I'm pretty sure all of my opinions about it have been said already in this thread. :P I actually can't stand Aerith.

Skyblade
12-02-2009, 12:11 AM
I thought it was obviously Tifa. Aerith's interest in Cloud never seemed to be quite along those lines. Going back on later playthroughs, it becomes obvious that her interest and thoughts are still on Zack.

Althought it's odd that she sensed the death of Elmyra's husband, but wasn't able to sense Zack's.

Shishikabob
12-02-2009, 12:37 AM
Althought it's odd that she sensed the death of Elmyra's husband, but wasn't able to sense Zack's.
She DID sense his death, watch the end of Crisis Core and look at her expression.
YouTube - Final Fantasy Crisis Core - Ending (English Version) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jb4Ws1lPHc)

At the very least she knew he wasn't coming back, she may have just been in denial about his death.

Forsaken Lover
12-02-2009, 12:41 AM
Doesn't the dialogue during the Aerith date in Gold Saucer, should you get her, shows she really only cares for Zack? I think she makes some cryptic dialogue near the end of Disk 1 that shows she knows "Cloud" isn't really Cloud as well.

And isn't it obvious from AC Aeris is busy having ghost sex with Zack?

Shishikabob
12-02-2009, 04:37 AM
Doesn't the dialogue during the Aerith date in Gold Saucer, should you get her, shows she really only cares for Zack?
no in fact she says she wants to get to know the REAL Cloud because she perceives he's not himself. If anything this proves she was over Zack and ready to move onto Cloud.



And isn't it obvious from AC Aeris is busy having ghost sex with Zack?
uh... no

Forsaken Lover
12-02-2009, 04:43 AM
Whatev. I dunno what else their spirits are doing together then. Not much you can do as a ghost.

Kyros
12-02-2009, 05:05 AM
I'm basing everything on the actual FFVII title and none of the other things like CC, AC, etc since I have no interest in what those have to hint on this, and I really could care less about their stories in comparison.

Shishikabob
12-02-2009, 05:36 AM
Ahh don't worry, everything is still Cloti :monster:

Skyblade
12-02-2009, 06:10 AM
Doesn't the dialogue during the Aerith date in Gold Saucer, should you get her, shows she really only cares for Zack?
no in fact she says she wants to get to know the REAL Cloud because she perceives he's not himself. If anything this proves she was over Zack and ready to move onto Cloud.

Yes, Aeris senses that the real Cloud is hidden, and is trying to draw him out, but no more than that. There is no romantic implication in her statements towards Cloud at any point. Her feellings towards him seem more tied to her mystical nature as an Ancient. She senses the hurt spirit, the shattered soul, and is trying to mend it. During most of the journey, she knows that Cloud is incomplete, and almost all of her dialogue with Cloud is centered on trying to fix that.

Her "wanting to get to know the real Cloud", would, if anything, indicate that she doesn't have feelings for him, and can't, because it isn't the real him. She wants to see the real him, not merely the reflection of Zack that he was. How could she love him for himself when she couldn't even see who he was, but could only see the facade of the man she once loved?

And her comments towards Zack are almost always romantic in nature, including the couple she makes during her date with Cloud.

line_genrou
12-05-2009, 11:02 AM
I repeat myself,how Cloud could love someone if he was so messed up and didn't even know who he was?

Omni-Odin
12-05-2009, 03:55 PM
Wow, it's Aerith. There's no doubt about it. Cloud has never even hinted at the fact he might want to even put his hands on Tifa in the games or the movie. It's Aerith no matter what anyone wants. Case closed.

Darth Cid
12-05-2009, 04:10 PM
Did you... happen to read any of my post? :( Heck just read the first quote, that might change you rmind :monster:

I mean you're entitled to your opinion but I'd at least like it if you heard WHY I consider CxT canon. Also please do type out why you think so, I'd love to hear it even if it takes a while.

Okay well, Reader's Digest version, I just don't see Aerith and Cloud lasting at all even if she lived, and Tifa I just see her going with someone else not even an in game character, just completely moving away from the FFVII universe in general.

Raistlin
12-05-2009, 05:48 PM
Cloud has never even hinted at the fact he might want to even put his hands on Tifa in the games or the movie.

The scene outside the Highwind, end of disc 2: Tifa and Cloud sharing a romantic moment of the type that was never shared between Aerith and Cloud.


It's Aerith no matter what anyone wants. Case closed.

Very thorough evidence. Oh wait.

Kyros
12-05-2009, 08:13 PM
Wow, it's Aerith. There's no doubt about it. Cloud has never even hinted at the fact he might want to even put his hands on Tifa in the games or the movie. It's Aerith no matter what anyone wants. Case closed.

I think the only issue is that you want to see him with Aeris for w/e reason when he only ever has any romantic scenes with Tifa and nobody else. I guess you also closed your eyes and skipped over practically 1/2 the game. Cloud didn't go out of his way for Aeris hardly ever if at all really while his entire life he's been wanting to be there for Tifa.

Ryushikaze
12-05-2009, 09:07 PM
Wow, it's Aerith. There's no doubt about it. Cloud has never even hinted at the fact he might want to even put his hands on Tifa in the games or the movie. It's Aerith no matter what anyone wants. Case closed.

Even though there's a scene in the original game which is the toned down version of a scene where Cloud and Tifa walked out of the chocobo stable together, and in which they exchange 'risque, mature' dialogue?

I mean hell, if we're talking about 'never hinted', where the hell are the 'hints' that he even had any interest in Aerith?
Support your first principles first.

Prisonic Fairytale
12-06-2009, 08:01 PM
I'm undecided.

line_genrou
12-08-2009, 01:24 AM
I think it was pretty settled later on in the game (when Cloud piece his memories together and realize who he really is) that his affection is for Tifa alone.
Aerith was a dear friend to him,but he was never in love with her.

It's pretty obvious to me,really.I don't understand this whole debate.

silentenigma
12-17-2009, 10:55 PM
Oh hello! Sorry this isn't exactly a prompt response...

Well Ryu, I think your argument is fairly EDIT: good at this point, but I do want to respond and address a few of things.



:sigh: Reread that, SE... I said NOTHING about the Low Highwind version being in Memorable Album. I said High version was in both Memorial Albums.

Sorry, this is what I mistook as you saying that... I thought by "both versions" you were referring to the highwind scene:

Memorial Album, a game script released from that time, which shows Tifa's date and the high highwind scene. In both versions.

Anyway, how much weight do you really want to place on that book when it was compiled by people unrelated to the original creators, published by a derivative company of Square, and contains no commentary/analyses like the UO has? The editors just transcribed a playthrough of the game, and took some screenshots.
And they took Tifa as the Gold Saucer date? The default for the date is Aeris -- You get Aeris in the event of a point tie, the UO confirms that the Aeris date is more likely, and the UO also suggests that it is the more relevent date to the surrounding story. Also, I believe that the guides since then have made a point to include screenshots of both dates.

I'm acknowledging now that a lot of my responses below are basically bollocks if you take the memorial albums as scripture, because in them I treat both highwind scenes with equal weight.



Or, OR, Cloud can simply be repeating things said to him by Zack and not be coherent. Or even he becomes lucid for a single moment before sliding back into dementia. Hard to accept, I know. Seriously, these are the giant gaping plot holes you hate the compilation for?


Your latter suggestion is definately the best way to fit the Crisis Core ending to the original game. And yes I will admit a lot of the issues are minor. But to me they add up, and I'd really rather there not be any compromises. A lot of things seem to point to carelessness on the part of Square-Enix when handling the scenarios, and the fact that you have to make all these little stretches in order to accomodate the inconsistencies tends to alienate me.


And the end doesn't mean no sequel. By your logic FFIV:TA is doing the same thing.
Actually yeah, considering they bring back the main antagonist who was assumed to have been defeated for 17 years. Now it doesn't really bother me personally so much, but I would totally understand if a hardcore FFIV fan was upset about the sequal and didn't accept it into their perception of the story.


And Sephiroth can't 'come back at any time'
I had meant that Square-Enix left Sephiroth's final line open-ended so that they could bring him back again in another sequal if they wanted to and make up some other unforseen reason to explain it.


and I'm aware there are inconsistencies, but smurf, compared to SW they're nada.
I guess at the end of the day it's just my opinion then. I really can't tell you you're wrong for accepting the Compilation anyway really.



Regardless, you seem to accept that I reject FFVII installments and materials released after ~2003 when debating the love triangle topic.
I'll play your game, yes.

And I really do appreciate it by the way... I doubt many other people would take the time.


Not sure why 2003 is the magic cutoff date, though.

2003 was the year of the first AC trailers showing up.... just an estimate.



Now on to the meat and potatoes:

First off I need to establish something here. A lot of you folks are saying that the Dating Mechanics only reflect on Tifa's and Aeris' feelings for Cloud and determine only how they act towards Cloud, but never the other way around. This makes little sense to begin with because we all know that both Aeris and Tifa continuously feel affection for Cloud. Besides that, it is shown otherwise that the date mechanics DO work both ways; they DO reflect Cloud's feelings and determine his actions. They show the mutual (b)romantic closeness between Cloud and the other characters. Take a look:

from Terence Fergusson's Date Mechanics Guide:

Talk to Jessie twice on the train home from the first mission:
"Thanks anyway" --
"Looking forward to it" (-3 Tifa)
(How could this action make Tifa like Cloud less if she isn't even present in the scene?)

If Cloud is chosen as the Don's date:
"Yes, his name's Barret..." (+5 Barret)
(How does this in any way reflect Barret's feelings for Cloud?)

When Marlene tells you about Aeris:
"I don't know" (-3 Aeris, +3 Tifa)
"Let's hope so" (+3 Aeris, -3 Tifa)
(Same deal here; Cloud's words end with Marlene, and yet Aeris's and Tifa's values are affected.)

This is also evident in the end-of-disk 2 Highwind scene: Tifa comes into the scene acting in the same way towards Cloud regardless of which version you get. But depending Tifa's point value, it is Cloud who may act two different ways towards Tifa. More on the Highwind Scene later.



They were integral to his sense of identity leading up to the Nibelheim incident. Without 'reaffirming' these childhood memories, Cloud may not have been able to regain himself in the lifestream.
Narratively, why affirm THESE memories, which all feature Tifa, and not completely ancillary memories? Why have Cloud repeat his desire to impress Tifa specifically, to state that he'll definitely be please as punch to learn that she did become interest if it is purely fillial? Hell, why tell us of his interest AT ALL when learning of his true self if it's irrelevant to who he is now?

First, A word on what Cloud's subconscious tells Tifa in the Lifestream:
Cloud's hidden Mt Nibel memory and old crush on Tifa are personified in the Lifestream sequence in the form of the little Cloud. Little Cloud can only speak for himself concerning "back then," and his statement to Tifa "tell him later; it'll probably make him happy" is based on Little Cloud's expectations for Adult Cloud, not definite knowledge of what Adult Cloud becomes. It only makes sense that Cloud as a kid would have expected himself to be very happy later on should Tifa pay attention to him.

A lot more on Cloud's past later.



Cloud's statements in this scene are based on Sephiroth convincing him that there is another Cloud out there somewhere who actually grew up in Nibelheim with Tifa. Tifa had been trying to convince Cloud that he was the real Cloud, but he no longer believes her. Seeing her in a mental breakdown, Cloud unsympathetically apologizes for not living up to the real Cloud and coolly wishes her luck in finding "the real Cloud." In essence, Cloud, in the state of mind he was in, does not really care if Tifa ever meets the real Cloud, but rather uses his statement almost as rhetoric to try an convince him that another cloud exists and to make his apology seem sincere, even as he abandons and betrays her.


Unsympathetically?
Coolly? Does not Care?
Sir, you're talking out of your ass and I feel no hesitation in saying it. Seriously, what makes you think that at this moment, with Cloud apologies for what he's done to everyone, Cloud would be such an insufferable jackass as to act in the way you describe. Are you just that smurfing desperate to refuse to admit that the game itself showed him expressing concern and sympathy to Tifa's emotions? Are you just that adamant about shipping him pink?


Also, while Cloud is not in the persona of his true self at the beginning of the game (but rather a mix of Zack and Tifa's memories of him), he still is, you know, self-aware as a human being and continues to build upon his experiences and gain memories. This is evident in the fact that as the game goes on, even way before the lifestream scene, Cloud becomes less and less the cocky mercenary jerk (Zack) he had been when he had just awakened form Mako poisoning. This is why we do not notice a stark contrast between Cloud's personality at the beginning of disk two and his personality at the end of disk two; He had gradually become more and more like the real Cloud on his own, with the only exception being his frequent mental breakdowns. This is why Aeris is eventually able to sense the 'real Cloud within' on the Aeris date ("No, but you're different") and differentiate him from Zack. So when he remembers his motivations of the past (wanting to join SOLDIER to impress Tifa), it doesn't mean that he automatically throws away all the more recent (and in my opinion, more relevent and timely) motivations and memories which compells him in the present (Save planet, defeat Sephiroth) even though they were developed in a time where he was not completely himself on the surface. Also, this is why his earlier crush on Tifa may not have necessarily transferred over to the present as affection.

You're saying a lot of nothing here, and shot yourself in the foot, too. You've admitted that As Cloud goes on, and is reminded of things LIKE his promise and regains various memories, he becomes more and more like himself, more sympathetic, more kind, etc. And then you say that he is the biggest jackass in the world at the tail end of all this. So let's look back- Cloud, not quite himself, does not have access to his memories, acts a bit of an asshole. Tifa reminds him of the promise, and he suddenly becomes a lot nicer to people. Time goes on, his shell cracks, his memories return, he's nicer to people. Why then wouldn't his crush also return either now or at some point? Why would he act like a Jackass to Tifa while apologizing to Red or Barrett at the same time? Is he being unsympathetic and cool to them too?

Yes, actually.

It seems you missed the whole point of what I was saying above. I'm trying to make the argument that Cloud, while he did not have access to his memories, was acting in accord with his true self LONG before the Northern Crater and Lifestream events (like by the end of Disk 1). Perhaps "coldly" would have been a better word than "coolly," but I NEVER implied that Cloud was lapsing into his 'old jerkish/cocky self' at the Northern Crater. It was a complete mental breakdown for Cloud. Perhaps his mindset is so difficult to idenitify because it is the only time it occurs in the game: It is where Cloud becomes complete as a true clone of Sephiroth -- He denies his humanity, breaks down, and although he is concsiously in control of his actions, Jenova's will has become completely integrated into his intentions. With this and his following actions, I cannot understand how one would believe that Cloud was being truly sincere with his apologies at the Northern Crater. After all, he was in the process of betraying all of his 'friends,' including Tifa. And despite Cloud's "I hope you find the real Cloud someday" statement, it is shown soon afterwards that he is actually quite unconcerned with Tifa's dreams for the future: he gives Sephiroth the black materia so that meteor could be summoned and KILL EVERYONE, including Tifa, before she would ever get the chance to meet the boy of her memories and live happily ever after. Cloud's action in giving away the Black Materia completely undoes his earlier statements. THEREFORE, Cloud's apology cannot be considered evidence towards any romantic feelings for Tifa.

I'm also saying that regardless of Cloud's past feelings for Tifa, he starts with a completely clean slate at the beginning of the game due to his memory loss. Throughout the course of Disk one, depending on the player, Cloud can either redevelop feelings for Tifa or develop feelings for Aeris. (Or both or neither, but most of us here aren't shooting for that.) Despite the fact that Cloud is assuming a false life, his feelings from Disk 1 stick with him even throughout Disk 2. Those feelings are what truly determine how he is affected by the Lifestream Sequence, and what his feelings are at the end of the game. The affirmation of his childhood crush does NONE of this. I know this probably sounds ridiculous to you right now, but hear me out.

I know you asked me, why affirm these memories if they weren't important to what Cloud is now. I think we don't see eye to eye on this is possibly because we also disagree on the true function of the Lifestream sequence. I believe that the purpose of the Lifestream Event is for Cloud to examine his forgotten past and memories; to prove by his hidden memories that he is human and not just created 5 years prior, so that he can recover from his coma and regain confidence in his humanity; to set his memory straight so that Sephiroth/Jenova can no longer manipulate him; and to get on with his life. You, on the other hand, seem to indicate that the the goal of the Lifestream Event is all of this, but more importantly, for Cloud to reaffirm his past/forgotten memories to be the whole essence of his true self; to assume the role of his past self in his personality and motivations; and to discard his more recent self/personality because it was based on a red herring.
So fundamentally speaking, I differentiate Cloud's Memories as a separate aspect from his Self/Personality; you consider his Memories to be completely integral to his Self/Personality. I'm sure we could get into an entire argument over who's right, but I'll try to explain my views well here:

To begin with, I interpret differently the scene where Tifa reminds Cloud of the Promise at the beginning of the game. Tifa's memory teaches Cloud to be receptive of other people, so the uncaring/cocky-mercenary persona he has been carrying fades in favor of a more natural sense of empathy. I'm sure Cloud is fully aware that he's softening up, though-- it is a choice that he makes, not a subconsiouis change in character for him. (There were no white-screen flashes, no mysterious words speaking to his mind during this scene.) Also, make no mistake: this is the only time that Cloud dramatically shifts to become 'nicer' as a guy.

The strong/confident illusion based on Zack, however, takes much longer to fade.

I'd like to revise my earlier statement, which basically said that by the end of Disk 1 Cloud had completely ditched the Zack persona and acts completely like his past self. Simple observation shows that this statment is flawed. In reality, I think that by the end of Disk 1 it was more like half-and-half. He still acts a lot like Zack in his mannerisms; however, he has lapses in confidence, his subconsious self increasingly influences him, etc... SO with the Lifestream sequence Cloud reaffirms his old memories and learns the truth about his past self and motivations. But does Cloud really go back to being just his old self after the Lifestream? NO! Cloud's true past self was a weak guy with low self esteem and a cynical outlook! Even though he was living a lie, Cloud learned WAY too much about strength and confidence during the events of the game to go back to being like he was before. So he simply acknowledges his past weakness, and in doing so, he rejects that path and finally becomes Strong. He goes right back to being like the Cloud we know and love from mid-Disk 1, except this time his strength and confidence are not based on illusions. THEREFORE, The Lifestream sequence wasn't the determining factor for Cloud's persona; it sorted out his memories so that he could collectively assess all of his true experiences, both recent and old, and reshape himself as he pleased. If so much about him was different between Nibelheim and the end of the game, if so much had changed within him due to his recent experiences, can't his potential feelings of affection be affected as well?

So Cloud's past feelings for Tifa are just that: a part of his past. An important part, no doubt, but not the entire essence of his later personality. The memory becomes relevent again to Cloud's motivations later only if it turns out he had already developed feelings for Tifa in disk 1.

Even this in itself is probably difficult to fathom since you believe that the Lifestream sequence invariably reawakens Cloud's past affection for Tifa.---after all, you might say, there is only one version of the Lifestream sequence. HOWEVER, the two different versions of the highwind sequence indicate that depending on the feelings he develops in Disk 1, Cloud can come away from the lifestream in 2 very different ways.
In the High highwind scene, Cloud reaffirms The Promise, tells Tifa he hopes to find the answers of the planet together with her, that Tifa taught him this in the Lifestream, and that "nothing's changed" concerning his feelings for her. In the Low highwind scene however, Cloud omits mentioning The Promise, plans on finding the answers alone, doesn't claim to have learned anything about this in the Lifestream with Tifa, and doesn't mention his past with Tifa -- implying that things have changed in his mind since then.
Also with 'hearts calling out to each other':
Tifa "...sniff... you probably don't remember this..."
"But deep in my heart I heard you calling my name... Or at least I thought I did..."

High version:
Cloud "Yeah... At that time I heard you calling me."
Cloud "You were calling me back in from the stream of consciousness in the Lifestream."
"Yeah" implies agreement.
"At that time" means he specifically remembers when he was calling out to Tifa.

Low version:
Cloud "I see."
Cloud "I think I've heard it, too. Then, it was Tifa's voice."
"I see." ---Note the contrast. Implies taking Tifa's word for it; but not necessarily remembering either way. (He's not going to tell Tifa she's lying...)
"I think I've heard it, too" means "I think I heard you calling out to me, in the same way that you described to have heard me."


The High version indicates that Cloud's already present feelings for Tifa were strengthened in the Lifesteam, while the Low version indicates that Cloud does not have feelings for Tifa and that the Lifestream did nothing to reawaken them. And what determines the events of this disk 2 scene? The developments made by the player during disk 1. Quite a far cry from "all implications of having a choice in the matter of Cloud's romantic interest made utterly null and void" later on.


'Very personal memory' has positive connotations. At the very least it's not spoken of in any way the vitriol Sephiroth is otherwise spoken of. Meanwhile, Cloud's memories re: Tifa- that tell us of his motivation as a person are called Private and Tender Memories. After this point, the next time Cloud even mentions the word memory is when he discusses his motivation for fighting. Further, everyone leaves to find what they are fighting for. Cloud and Tifa stay behind. In both versions, Cloud speaks of everyone having an irreplacable something
they are fighting for. This does not suggest blood feud with Sephiroth. This suggests something he does not wish to lose to Meteor.

While we've been in the mood for bringing the official English translation under speculation, I'd like to take a look at this scene as well. It always seemed kind of sketchy to me: First Cloud says that his feud with Sephiroth is more important to him than saving the planet, but soon after he contradicts himself and says that he's fighting to save the planet and that's that. Now I'm no scholor in Japanese. So I looked up Cloud's 'very personal memory' line in Cathy Okada's translation of FFVII (which predated, and is generally superior to, the official translation), and this is what I found:
Cid: We might not come back. We might start thinking: Heck, the Meteo is this close, so why bother!? Just give up and end your life easy!

Claude: I know why I'm here. Like I said, this fight is personal to all of us... and I want you to find your reason because you can never fight without a cause. If you don't come back,...I can't force you.

This translation of the scene seems much more consistent what Cloud states earlier... here he is referring back to what he had said about his personal motivation, which is to settle the score with Sephiroth. So it looks like 'very personal memory' is more of a translation error anyway.



If "Aerith leading Cloud back to Tifa" was the developers' true intent for this scene, they certainly did it in a very obscure/poor manner. Aerith extends her hand out to Cloud with her palm face down (implying 'want' or 'longing') rather than face up (beckoning/leading).

No she doesn't. She has her hand evenly vertical.

I guess it depends on the camera angle. At the first shot, her hand looks vertical. At the first-person angle, it looks 45 degrees/downward. Whatever, though... it's obvious no one on this board wants to see this point argued out and they're all probably more sane than I am.


I'm basing my knowledge of the original line based on the lack of pronouns and Tifa's reaction of 'Let's' go meet giving the first line context. The promised land for both of them can be with their fallen friend, can it not?

>The planet's answer....
The Promised Land....
I think I can find her there.
>Yeah, let's go see her.

I wonder who did the translating for Reminiscence of FFVII (quoted above) from the AC dvd then... It's weird that the line would be translated two slightly different ways at two different times and yet both be wrong/misleading. But yes about the ambiguity of the original line as it stands... Am I right that a literal translation is "I think we will meet there // Yeah, let's meet there" ?
Well I'll agree, then, that it makes the scene neutral-ish rather than CxA-ish. Though in my personal opinion, the fact that Cloud thinks of 'meeting Aeris' as a significant part of his 'extreme happiness' must imply something, I'll admit it's probably bias and I'm not going to argue for it. That line is what nudged my opinion a bit in favor for CxA anyway, so overall, things seem a lot more neutral to me now.




And Barret. So really, it's a combination of two of his best friends knocking him into shape that gets Cloud to shakily agree to go.

Even better, it takes two people to convince him to do something you say he 'really wants to do.'
You shifted your argument from "it takes Tifa to convince Cloud to go so it's CxT!" to "it takes his friends to convince Cloud to go so it's anti-CxA!" and I don't like it. Remember that Cloud is extremely nervous that he might do something terrible (i.e. hurt Aeris again) if he goes. He's obviously concerned with Aeris' well being, even if I feels he is incapable of going in person for fear of completely screwing up again. Going after her simply for the sake of getting his questions answered is subordinate.



The entire group, including Cloud, goes after Aeris because of their concern for her safety since she went alone.

Yes. So how does that make Cloud going special, again? And you're equivocating here, or just can't follow the discussion. We were talking about his heading after her in the communique..
I was simply refuting your suggestion that they went after her just to get answers from her, when in reality they went out of concern.



I see Cloud catching her as him 1) closing the arc that you mentioned earlier, which was a symbol of his weakness, and showing that he is now strong and capable, and 2) not being a total jerk; actually caring for the well being of a dear friend. Now if the player had chosen for Cloud to love Tifa, then the emotion in this scene is all the more intense and it can serve to strengthen the protective bond which the two have. Yet at the same time, Cloud was really just doing what any true friend would do in that situation.
...And you're saying that the closing of an Arc- and arc started 15 years prior Cloud's time by the failure to save a girl from falling, a girl he had a crush on for the entire rest of his life until at least his intubation, and which was later reaffirmed when we finally get to learn and meet the real Cloud again- with the rescue of the girl the failure to rescue started the arc is just 'him doing what any true friend in that situation?' JUST? It's the oldest motivating factor we know of Cloud HAS. It's more than just being nice, it's coming full circle, with the promise, with his memories, in finally being the White Knight Tifa asked him to be, and doing it in time finally. There's romantic implications there whether Aerith went on the Date or Barret did.

With my earlier interpretation of the Lifestream sequence, that there are two different possibilities for Cloud afterward (either his memories are reaffirmed again in the form of affection, or they are just important to his past) based on cloud's (the player's) inclinations during disk 1, my interpretation of the above really isn't all that insane.

There are actually two very separate arcs which are being confused as one: "The Promise" arc, which centers on TIFA's romantic wish for Cloud to be her White Knight, and the Mt Nibel arc which centers on Cloud feeling inferior because he was unable to save Tifa from falling.

'The promise,' arc, is narratively closed when Cloud and Tifa discover in the Lifestream that Cloud had indeed come for Tifa after Sephiroth struck her down. Yet "the promise" had never been a motivating factor for Cloud that day or ever before. In such a desperate situation, "the promise" - which Cloud was never really enthusiastic about anyway - was probably one of the last things on his mind; rather, his 'heroic' actions resulted because he cared for Tifa and wanted her to be safe.

Given this, you still might be inclined to say that Cloud privately wanted to be Tifa's (romantic) Hero, because of the Mt. Nibel failure. This is NOT the case, however, as evident in his initial lack of comprehension, then reluctance, when Tifa presented the idea at the well. So was the Mt Nibel failure arc and the desire to be Tifa's White Knight really ever a motivating factor for Cloud, then? Not really. In actuallity, the arc was never about Cloud thinking "I'm not worthy of Tifa unless I can protect her!" Rather, Cloud's real motivating factor and 'romantic dream' was simply to get Tifa to pay attention to him. The Mt. Nibel failure only escalated this already present mindset, in two ways: 1) It made Cloud feel weak and incapable. 2) It made Cloud think that his weakness prevented Tifa from noticing him. So there really was no change in the underlying motivation for Cloud concerning Tifa----although from then on he had an inferiority complex to deal with as well. He decided to use SOLDIER as a means to overcome his weakness and make Tifa like him. Of course this failed, yet Tifa begins noticing Cloud all the same. Mission accomplished. What is left of the arc, then, is simply Cloud's leftover memory of weakness for never being able to properly protect those who are close to him. So catching Tifa, then, resolves this without the necessity for romantic implications. When the arc closes, what is accomplished is NOT necessarily Cloud proving himself capable of being Tifa's white knight, but rather him proving that he is indeed now stronger in general as a person. And the segment is far too brief to be much more than icing on the cake of Cloud's character development. There's no "I finally caught you" // "You were always there..." kind of line. Rather, the scene quickly changes focus with Cloud immediately speaking distantly concerning the encounter he just had with Aeris.



I love how you just invent things here. First, see T,C, and Barret, but Cloud is quite Close to Tifa, and there's quite a gap between him and Barret, and very little of one between him and Tifa. Later, right after Red XII speaks, Cloud, yes, is looking at him, but then immediately and quickly returns his attention to Tifa. Even when looking at Red he's still close to Tifa Next we see, Red's not in shot any longer, and still being close to Tifa.

(relevent caps of the ending for all to behold)
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff7/fmvshots-d3/04-ending/00132.jpg
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff7/fmvshots-d3/04-ending/00154.jpg
http://www.ffshrine.org/ff7/fmvshots-d3/04-ending/00155.jpg

Of all the aspects of your argument, I find this to be the weakest. Bottom line: You're taking a few disjointed, inconclusive, short sections of the ending, talking them up and glazing them with your bias to make it seem like they clearly imply romantic meaning when they really do not. It's just not good enough, man.



I don't think Cloud's Promised Land ever was supposed to involve suicide, or death... but perhaps something more abstract.

Like being surrounded by friends, family, and the living woman he loves?

No, more like "defying the impossible" when it comes to the barriers of life and death. I'd like to think that the world became drastically different after the big white flash. That the planet takes away all that is bad and humanity is given a new vitality; Everyone goes to find their promised land in this new life. Seems more consistent with the game's overall theme... It's just me though; deadly diseases being spread around the world by the very thing that saved humanity is cool too.


And my point is that the original story of FF7 is based around a gigantic red herring, a reevaluation of Cloud based on said red herring, and that all implications of having a choice in the matter of Cloud's romantic interest made utterly null and void by the revelations of the lifestream sequence and the light it sheds on both previous and later actions.


yeah... you're probably right. peace out.

Shishikabob
12-18-2009, 12:54 AM
Welcome to reality Enigma. :D

This is like the fourth Clerith I've helped convert :P

silentenigma
12-18-2009, 03:06 AM
Welcome to reality Enigma. :D

This is like the fourth Clerith I've helped convert :P

Oh, me? heh heh. I'm still very in favor of CloudxAerith, for reasons I know that Clotis will never want to hear. But from (what I believe to be) an objective standpoint, I'll argue that Cloud's affection really was intended to be ambiguous.

You'll never take me alive!!!

the AJman
12-18-2009, 03:11 AM
Silentengima, I was going to read that post. However, when I got half way down and scrolled to see how much left of your post there was, I said to hell it.

I'm more of a Cloud and Tifa kind of guy, but I certianly don't take it too seriously. I believe that Square left it fairly ambigous and did so for a reason. Thats all I'm adding to the discussion; I know not much.

Shishikabob
12-18-2009, 04:02 AM
I know not much.
Obviously not... I mean I don't know how you can see Cloud and Tifa shared their mutual feelings for each other and say "Square left it ambiguous". I mean they're living together and raising a family and Cloud said in CoT that he had Tifa with him and it was different before. I mean really, what more do you need? You KNOW Tifa loved Cloud at that point... mutual means he must have returned the feeling...


But from (what I believe to be) an objective standpoint, I'll argue that Cloud's affection really was intended to be ambiguous.
In FFVII sure, maybe, but after everything that's happened, I don't know how anyone can say that. I really don't, I mean what do you need a kiss? A hug? Why do you need those things when you can say it's possible he loved Aerith and he never did those things with her either.

the AJman
12-18-2009, 04:57 AM
I know not much.
Obviously not... I mean I don't know how you can see Cloud and Tifa shared their mutual feelings for each other and say "Square left it ambiguous". I mean they're living together and raising a family and Cloud said in CoT that he had Tifa with him and it was different before. I mean really, what more do you need? You KNOW Tifa loved Cloud at that point... mutual means he must have returned the feeling...


But from (what I believe to be) an objective standpoint, I'll argue that Cloud's affection really was intended to be ambiguous.
In FFVII sure, maybe, but after everything that's happened, I don't know how anyone can say that. I really don't, I mean what do you need a kiss? A hug? Why do you need those things when you can say it's possible he loved Aerith and he never did those things with her either.

When I said I know not much, I didn't mean I didn't know much, on contrary I've beaten VII so many times its a little said. I know the game pretty darn well, I also watch the movie often.

What I meant was I know that my statment wasn't much, meaning lack of content, but thats all I was going to put in. I know all the parts in the story where Cloud and Tifa share rather tender moments (the airship, hell the lifestream bit). I merely threw that ambiguous thing out there to please the other side of the arguement and keep them from biting at my ankles. I firmly believe that Cloud and Tifa indeed have mutual feelings for each other and I've always believed that. It's funny that I try to avoid a debate and the person that calls me out is on the same side.

Speaking of which, why are you calling me out on this, I'm on your side.

Shishikabob
12-18-2009, 06:37 AM
Because you said it was ambiguous and it's not. :monster: Sorry didn't mean to offend I just don't understand the other side of the fence is all. And there's no need to say stuff to please anyone. You should be proud of what you know and what you like ^_^

silentenigma
12-18-2009, 09:03 PM
Silentengima, I was going to read that post. However, when I got half way down and scrolled to see how much left of your post there was, I said to hell it.
I know... it's thorough a little excessive XD


In FFVII sure, maybe, but after everything that's happened, I don't know how anyone can say that. I really don't, I mean what do you need a kiss? A hug?

These people do. (http://www.clerith.com/Menu.htm)

(note: I do not associate myself with these people; they make a lot of decent points, some of which even makes the Compilation stuff seem ambiguous at times; but other things they say is just over-the-top in my opinion.)

Shishikabob
12-19-2009, 04:41 AM
Oh I know those people, the admin of that site is a friend of mine :P
Though I only see her on CxA so I'm not able to just outright ask or discuss love triangle stuffs with her.

But Cloud and Aerith never hugged or kissed either so... that one goes both ways really.

nirojan
01-10-2010, 10:08 PM
Its Tifa guys!!

BIG TITS WINS IT ALL!

Shishikabob
01-13-2010, 07:48 AM
Something from the Ultimania Omega:
ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う。


Translation from awesome person.


ティファ = Tifa
クラウド = Cloud
に対する = toward
好感 = favoribility (affection value in this case)
度 = degree
高い = high
場合 = event...
飛空艇= airship
に残っ = left over (remain in this case, the "ni" says where they remained, airship in this case)
たふたり = two people
互い = each other
求める = to want/desire
気持ち = feeling
確かめ = confirmation
合う = This goes with above confirmation, meaning they confirmed with each other (a scene can confirm something for the viewers while characters involve do not know, this tells us it was confirmed between the characters)

Put it together with the participles and you get:
"In the event the affection value toward Cloud from Tifa is high, the two that remain on the airship will confirm their feelings of desire for each other to one another."

Cloud and Tifa official WANT or desire each other :D

champagne supernova
01-13-2010, 12:52 PM
Final Fantasy VII. End of Disc 2. Airship empty except for Cloud and Tifa. Might die fighting Sephiroth. Cloud had childhood crush on Tifa, and judging by the fact that Tifa still hung out with Cloud even though he was an outcast suggests that she might also have had a crush. So, do you honestly think there weren't any hugs or kisses that night? Especially with Tifa's question the next morning to everyone.

AC bamboozled everyone, but I reckon Cloud just felt guilty about Aerith's death and as such couldn't enjoy a healthy relationship with Tifa (as well as being an emo, whining git who made Squall look like a right old bag of sunlight).

So definitely Tifa.

silentenigma
01-13-2010, 09:52 PM
Put it together with the participles and you get:
"In the event the affection value toward Cloud from Tifa is high, the two that remain on the airship will confirm their feelings of desire for each other to one another."

Cloud and Tifa official WANT or desire each other :D

.....key phrase: "in the event that...."

Ambiguity still abounds.

It's also too bad that nobody (particularly a certain someone) ever really read my far-too-lengthy post as far as I know... because the whole end of disk two thing is a big part of that.

Shishikabob
01-14-2010, 12:55 AM
Put it together with the participles and you get:
"In the event the affection value toward Cloud from Tifa is high, the two that remain on the airship will confirm their feelings of desire for each other to one another."

Cloud and Tifa official WANT or desire each other :D

.....key phrase: "in the even that...."

Ambiguity still abounds.

It's also too bad that nobody (particularly a certain someone) ever really read my far-too-lengthy post as far as I know... because the whole end of disk two thing is a big part of that.

There are SEVERAL quotes throughout that very same Ultimania and others that said Cloud and Tifa realized their feelings for each other at the end of FFVII. They didn't realize any thing in the low affection version, at all. Those quotes are basically implying the High Affection version is canon and this quote tells us WHAT feelings they realized.

silentenigma
01-14-2010, 03:23 AM
From what I've found, these quotes are generally like this one, which is also ambiguous:

"After that speech, all of them are dismissed, except Cloud and Tifa. Confessing their feelings to each other, Cloud and Tifa see whether they feel the same way."

Regardless of the low or high versions, Cloud and Tifa realize each other's feelings. Only in the Low version, the realization is that the feeling is not mutual: Tifa vaguely confesses her love, and Cloud expresses that he wishes to find life's answers alone.

~ambiguity still abounds~


Speaking of things that the Almighty Ultimanias have to say (particularly because I'm tired of always being on the defense), here's this:

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was 'the child which Aerith brought here' and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith." -10th anniversary ultimania

Shishikabob
01-14-2010, 05:44 AM
"After that speech, all of them are dismissed, except Cloud and Tifa. Confessing their feelings to each other, Cloud and Tifa see whether they feel the same way."

Where is this from.. or did you make it up?


"Both of them share feelings for Cloud -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was 'the child which Aerith brought here' and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith." -10th anniversary ultimania
Look I can play the bold game too.

Cloud and Aerith had a special bond, I know this. Tifa doesn't want Cloud dragging his past around that might be related to Aerith because he feels such an insane amount of guilt for her, and she doesn't want to see him go through that.

Clerith proofs this is not I'm afraid.

Ryushikaze
01-14-2010, 05:51 AM
From what I've found, these quotes are generally like this one, which is also ambiguous:

"After that speech, all of them are dismissed, except Cloud and Tifa. Confessing their feelings to each other, Cloud and Tifa see whether they feel the same way."

Wow, that's :bou::bou::bou::bou: for translated. And I know because I just helped translate that section earlier today. It says they share their feelings, not that they 'see whether or not the feel the same way'


Regardless of the low or high versions, Cloud and Tifa realize each other's feelings. Only in the Low version, the realization is that the feeling is not mutual: Tifa vaguely confesses her love, and Cloud expresses that he wishes to find life's answers alone.

No. He expresses nothing of the sort in the low version.


~ambiguity still abounds~

And the high version is canon. Memorial Album, UO, U20.


Speaking of things that the Almighty Ultimanias have to say (particularly because I'm tired of always being on the defense), here's this:

"Both of them share feelings for Cloud -- Tifa was close to Aerith, who can also be called a love rival. With that point in mind, they were also good friends. Nevertheless, it is not hard to imagine that she carries complex feelings as a woman toward Aerith, who had built up a special bond with Cloud that was different from Tifa's.
Tifa's complicated feelings continue even in AC, two years after Aerith had departed the world. This was due to the fact that Cloud, succumbing to the notion that Aerith's death was his fault and condemning himself, construed that Denzel was 'the child which Aerith brought here' and took care of him. In addition, Cloud had also gone away to the church that Aerith had been in. The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith." -10th anniversary ultimania

Yes. Different from Tifa's. Different in that it's not a bond of romance and mutual feelings.
Cloud and Tifa confirmed their mutual feelings, feelings of desire, under the highwind, they have a future together. THEY form a family together. She is the mother of that family and she sees him as the father.

Ambiguity my ass.

line_genrou
01-14-2010, 11:20 AM
Please,of course they banged each other on that rock.
Two people that were attracted to each other,alone,world is about to end after a few hours...
I don't think they just held hands and slept.Let's ignore if they love each other,the situation itself implies that they did get in on.

silentenigma
01-15-2010, 12:46 AM
Wow, that's :bou::bou::bou::bou: for translated. And I know because I just helped translate that section earlier today. It says they share their feelings, not that they 'see whether or not the feel the same way'

I might take your word for it if you give that literal translation. There's no way that "They share their feelings" is the entire statement (it looks like only half), and if it was, it's still not clear that the feelings are mutual.



Regardless of the low or high versions, Cloud and Tifa realize each other's feelings. Only in the Low version, the realization is that the feeling is not mutual: Tifa vaguely confesses her love, and Cloud expresses that he wishes to find life's answers alone.

No. He expresses nothing of the sort in the low version.

Tifa "Cloud...? Do you think the stars can hear us? Do you think they see how hard we're fighting for them?"
Cloud "I dunno... But..."
"Whether they can or not, we still have to do what we can. And believe in ourselves..."
"I'll find the answer some day, as long as I keep trying."

Especially considering the contrast between that and the corresponding lines in the high version, I don't know how it could be more plain.



And the high version is canon. Memorial Album, UO, U20.

Hello again, Ryushikaze. I'll just refer you to my most recent response (post #125) (http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-vii/128111-lets-discuss-clouds-main-love-interest-aerith-tifa-9.html#post2763850)
Basically I'm still skeptical about the memorial albums as being more than just a record of one possible playthough in order to get screenshots of the entire game.


Speaking of things that the Almighty Ultimanias have to say (particularly because I'm tired of always being on the defense), here's this:

"Yes. Different from Tifa's. Different in that it's not a bond of romance and mutual feelings.


Not a bond of romance? In the section that specifically addresses Aerith as a "love rival?" what kind of "special bond", other than a romantic one, would stir such "complex emotions" (jealousy) within Tifa as a "love rival?" Once again, it's very plain. Tifa would have no reason to harbor jealousy for Aerith if she had a mutual romantic bond to Cloud. She's frustrated that it is Aerith, instead of her, who has that "special bond" with Cloud.

Then in AC her old jealous feelings are reawakened when she finds that Cloud is living at the church, for she gets the impression that he's drawn there for more reasons than just his guilt ("dragging the past around").

Shishikabob
01-15-2010, 12:52 AM
Then in AC her old jealous feelings are reawakened when she finds that Cloud is living at the church, for she gets the impression that he's drawn there for more reasons than just his guilt ("dragging the past around")
Dragging the past around is in reference to how guilty he feels about Aerith's death. I have no idea what makes you think otherwise.

When Cloud says in AC, that he doesn't think he can protect anyway, Tifa's response is "zuruzuru zuruzuru." which is an onomatopoeia for dragging.
ずるずる Nihongodict: Free Online English ⇆ Japanese Dictionary (http://www.nihongodict.com/w/596/zuruzuru/)

Ryushikaze
01-15-2010, 02:07 AM
I might take your word for it if you give that literal translation. There's no way that "They share their feelings" is the entire statement (it looks like only half), and if it was, it's still not clear that the feelings are mutual.

In that singular quote it's not clear, but in all the other quotes, it either says they are or uses phrases with the same idiomatic tone as 'feelings for each other' has in english.


Tifa "Cloud...? Do you think the stars can hear us? Do you think they see how hard we're fighting for them?"
Cloud "I dunno... But..."
"Whether they can or not, we still have to do what we can. And believe in ourselves..."
"I'll find the answer some day, as long as I keep trying."

Especially considering the contrast between that and the corresponding lines in the high version, I don't know how it could be more plain.

Now who's reading too much into things? He doesn't say he wants to do it alone. He just says he has to keep trying. And either way, he wants Tifa to be with him 'from then on' 'in a different way than before' in the start of CoT.


Hello again, Ryushikaze. I'll just refer you to my most recent response (post #125) (http://forums.eyesonff.com/final-fantasy-vii/128111-lets-discuss-clouds-main-love-interest-aerith-tifa-9.html#post2763850)
Basically I'm still skeptical about the memorial albums as being more than just a record of one possible playthough in order to get screenshots of the entire game.

You can be skeptical all you want, but they released it twice with the same information.
And really, you don't like new materials, but they do count, so the UO and U20 count.


Not a bond of romance? In the section that specifically addresses Aerith as a "love rival?" what kind of "special bond", other than a romantic one, would stir such "complex emotions" (jealousy) within Tifa as a "love rival?" Once again, it's very plain. Tifa would have no reason to harbor jealousy for Aerith if she had a mutual romantic bond to Cloud. She's frustrated that it is Aerith, instead of her, who has that "special bond" with Cloud.

Cloud is oblivious to any feelings Aerith has. ALSO from the U10. So no, there was no romantic bond. You have to be aware of the other peson's feelings to have a romantic bond.


Then in AC her old jealous feelings are reawakened when she finds that Cloud is living at the church, for she gets the impression that he's drawn there for more reasons than just his guilt ("dragging the past around").

Uh, 'his guilt' IS dragging the past around. 'I failed people, I'll fail more people, I suck' is the basic idea of Cloud in AC/C. His guilt is what he's dragging, what she comments on him dragging around, and that's what he drags so much he wears it down, like he comments on later in the film.

Shishikabob
01-15-2010, 04:02 AM
Ryu I've changed my mind, I don't think anything after the first 10 minutes in FFVII count... so clearly it's CloudxBarret.

silentenigma
01-16-2010, 07:08 PM
In that singular quote it's not clear, but in all the other quotes, it either says they are or uses phrases with the same idiomatic tone as 'feelings for each other' has in english.

a'ight.


Now who's reading too much into things? He doesn't say he wants to do it alone. He just says he has to keep trying.
Sure, when you look at it alone, it seems to be that way. But when you compare the high and low versions....

Cloud (high): "Someday we'll find the answer. Right, Tifa?"
Cloud (low): "I'll find the answer some day, as long as I keep trying."

...the contrast between the two indicates that that Cloud isn't concerned with finding the answers together with Tifa.


And either way, he wants Tifa to be with him 'from then on' 'in a different way than before' in the start of CoT.

And this is where arguing for ambiguity in 2010 gets.... sketchy... and I'll admit it. The best counters to this, I suppose, are 1) that "different" could be referring to the idea of starting a 'family' with Tifa and others... 2) that not much later in the story, Tifa is still unsure if Cloud has feelings for her, and she can't bring herself to directly ask him if he loves her....and 3) that Nomura says he has 'no clue' if Tifa and Cloud share romantic interests between FFVII and AC, and that these matters have been been left up for fan interpretation.



Cloud is oblivious to any feelings Aerith has. ALSO from the U10. So no, there was no romantic bond. You have to be aware of the other peson's feelings to have a romantic bond.

You're right about the "Cloud is none the wiser to them" statement (which, for the record, applies to Tifa as well as Aerith) ... But the statement about Aerith's bond with Cloud is said in an objective sense; it's not about what Tifa feels is going on between them. So a bond exists between Cloud and Aerith, at the very least while she is still living. It is special, different from Tifa's, and causes "complex feelings" within Tifa as a love rival. What kind of bond could it be, then, if it's not knowingly romantic? The best thing I can think of is that it's a subconscious bond of romantic potential, which Tifa can sense by the way Aerith and Cloud naturally act around each other.

Come to think of it, it seems like the 'none the wiser' can only refer to a state pretty early in the game... i don't know.



Then in AC her old jealous feelings are reawakened when she finds that Cloud is living at the church, for she gets the impression that he's drawn there for more reasons than just his guilt ("dragging the past around").

Uh, 'his guilt' IS dragging the past around. 'I failed people, I'll fail more people, I suck' is the basic idea of Cloud in AC/C. His guilt is what he's dragging, what she comments on him dragging around, and that's what he drags so much he wears it down, like he comments on later in the film.

Sorry I guess my statement was worded a little funny, but I actually was saying that "dragging the past around" refers to his guilt, BUT remember what all of the quote says, particularly the last phrase:

"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith."

So Tifa intuits that the reason Cloud goes to the church isn't merely because of his guilt, because of something else related to Aerith. Put the sentence in context with the section being about the love rivalry, and there you go.

Shishikabob
01-17-2010, 12:21 AM
So Tifa intuits that the reason Cloud goes to the church isn't merely because of his guilt, because of something else related to Aerith.
... his guilt is related to Aerith dude

Ryushikaze
01-17-2010, 06:55 AM
...the contrast between the two indicates that that Cloud isn't concerned with finding the answers together with Tifa.

Or that Cloud doesn't think Tifa wants him. It's her affection controlling. Not his.


And this is where arguing for ambiguity in 2010 gets.... sketchy... and I'll admit it. The best counters to this, I suppose, are 1) that "different" could be referring to the idea of starting a 'family' with Tifa and others...

What others? And how is starting the family with her not romantic?


2) that not much later in the story, Tifa is still unsure if Cloud has feelings for her, and she can't bring herself to directly ask him if he loves her....and

Much later in continuity, and that very question itself indicates she was at one point sure that he did. You don't randomly ask that question to a sleeping roommate you have feelings for. I mean, that's just Edward Cullen creepy.


3) that Nomura says he has 'no clue' if Tifa and Cloud share romantic interests between FFVII and AC, and that these matters have been been left up for fan interpretation.

A statement that came well before all the other information, from a man known to blatantly lie about upcoming titles rather than give away secrets- KH2 and Namine, anyone?


You're right about the "Cloud is none the wiser to them" statement (which, for the record, applies to Tifa as well as Aerith) ...

I am aware. He becomes 'wise' to these feelings later.


But the statement about Aerith's bond with Cloud is said in an objective sense; it's not about what Tifa feels is going on between them. So a bond exists between Cloud and Aerith, at the very least while she is still living. It is special, different from Tifa's, and causes "complex feelings" within Tifa as a love rival. What kind of bond could it be, then, if it's not knowingly romantic? The best thing I can think of is that it's a subconscious bond of romantic potential, which Tifa can sense by the way Aerith and Cloud naturally act around each other.

Or they're just easygoing with each other in a way Tifa isn't- in a way she actually brings up in her own date- and that's what makes her jealous, even if there's no romance there.
And smeg potential. There's potential on both sides.


Come to think of it, it seems like the 'none the wiser' can only refer to a state pretty early in the game... i don't know.

It applies at least as late in the game as the Gold Saucer dates.


Sorry I guess my statement was worded a little funny, but I actually was saying that "dragging the past around" refers to his guilt, BUT remember what all of the quote says, particularly the last phrase:

"The thing which she is unable to hide in her irritation towards Cloud is the fact that he isn't merely dragging the past around, but because that reason might perhaps be related to Aerith."

So Tifa intuits that the reason Cloud goes to the church isn't merely because of his guilt, because of something else related to Aerith. Put the sentence in context with the section being about the love rivalry, and there you go.

No, it's not just because Cloud feels guilt, but because that guilt has to do with Aerith. THAT'S what makes the feelings toward Aerith complicated. She cherishes Aerith, but hates that her memory is causing Cloud to beat himself up with guilt.
GUILT is always the key word between Cloud and Aerith and also between Cloud and Zack. Talking about romance is not only aparsimonious, it's narratively unsupported. If you want to emphasize love, you don't emphasize guilt and forgiveness, especially from a dead person. Extraordinary claims and extraordinary evidence, after all.

Shishikabob
01-17-2010, 07:55 AM
Yeah for someone who loved Aerith and wanted to be her BF and what not, it's very odd that the first thing he says to her after being united is "I want to be forgiven!"


3) that Nomura says he has 'no clue' if Tifa and Cloud share romantic interests between FFVII and AC, and that these matters have been been left up for fan interpretation.
He said that BEFORE AC came out... like years before it came out. I'm not even entirely sure it was in the works at the time. You're really going to trust an interview that took place so long ago when AC wasn't even out? Wouldn't the newer interviews take precedence like the one where Nojima mentions "Love marriage and family" in the context of Cloud and Tifa? Plus Nomura's not the writer, Nojima is. Nomura's the director, big difference there.

Not to mention Nomura is a guy who said Kairi and Namine were not related to avoid spoiling fans.

silentenigma
01-18-2010, 05:31 PM
Or that Cloud doesn't think Tifa wants him. It's her affection controlling. Not his.

untrue.



First off I need to establish something here. A lot of you folks are saying that the Dating Mechanics only reflect on Tifa's and Aeris' feelings for Cloud...but never the other way around. This makes little sense to begin with because we all know that both Aeris and Tifa continuously feel affection for Cloud. Besides that, it is shown otherwise that the date mechanics DO work both ways; they DO reflect Cloud's feelings and determine his actions. They show the mutual (b)romantic closeness between Cloud and the other characters. Take a look:

from Terence Fergusson's Date Mechanics Guide:

Talk to Jessie twice on the train home from the first mission:
"Thanks anyway" --
"Looking forward to it" (-3 Tifa)
(How could this action make Tifa like Cloud less if she isn't even present in the scene?)

If Cloud is chosen as the Don's date:
"Yes, his name's Barret..." (+5 Barret)
(How does this in any way reflect Barret's feelings for Cloud?)

When Marlene tells you about Aeris:
"I don't know" (-3 Aeris, +3 Tifa)
"Let's hope so" (+3 Aeris, -3 Tifa)
(Same deal here; Cloud's words end with Marlene, and yet Aeris's and Tifa's values are affected.)

This is also evident in the end-of-disk 2 Highwind scene: Tifa comes into the scene acting in the same way towards Cloud regardless of which version you get. But depending Tifa's point value, it is Cloud who may act two different ways towards Tifa.




And how is starting the family with her not romantic?
It's "family" as in, a group of close friends who live together and support each other. And that's exactly what they do. Cloud, Tifa, Marlene, Denzel. Barret probably would have been there too had he not gone off searching for alternative energy sources. Cloud and Tifa sleep in separate beds in AC and never have kids like a 'true' family. Now, Could they have found time for romance leading up to AC? possibly. But it's not completely clear. Either way, i know that one has to reach pretty far to argue against that one part in CoT, so I'll drop it.


Much later in continuity, and that very question itself indicates she was at one point sure that he did.

Or that at one point she convinced herself that he did, or felt that the things he used to say indicated that he did, etc.

You're definitely right about everything else though, so I'll quit trying to extend my 'ambiguity' argument to the compilation.

Elly
01-19-2010, 01:30 PM
i never understood where people get "they slept in seperate beds in AC" from, considering the only time they show them sleeping or in beds is after Cloud passes out after finding Tiffa in the church, when they wake in the kids room with Reno & Rude hovering by the door, whereas in Case of Tiffa it implies they share a bed...

line_genrou
01-19-2010, 07:09 PM
i never understood where people get "they slept in seperate beds in AC" from, considering the only time they show them sleeping or in beds is after Cloud passes out after finding Tiffa in the church, when they wake in the kids room with Reno & Rude hovering by the door, whereas in Case of Tiffa it implies they share a bed...


In Case of Tifa,when Cloud is drinking and Tifa asks if she could join him,he says he wants to drink alone and she says "Then drink in your room."
I think that means they have separate bedrooms.:eep:

Elly
01-20-2010, 12:42 AM
or does she mean his office?.. that one room that's all his where he conducts business from...

Shishikabob
01-20-2010, 06:37 AM
Fairly certain she means his office.

Oh and the "Do you love me" scene is incredibly creepy if they aren't sharing a bed. What? Tifa just walks into her roomates room in the middle of the night and says "LOL do you love me? :D" what is that?

line_genrou
01-20-2010, 10:02 AM
Yeah,it could be.
Even better =P


or does she mean his office?.. that one room that's all his where he conducts business from...


But in that room when it shows in AC,we can see a bed :|
But one thing that really bothers is that,if they had a relationship,as in,a romantic relationship,even having a sexual one...wouldn't be pretty obvious in Case of Tifa? They would mention of kissing or touching each other,even more so because they are sharing a house...but there's none of that.It really bothers me. :(

line_genrou, please use the edit function to add to your earlier post rather than post several times in a row. Thanks! -Rantzien

PeneloRatsbane
01-20-2010, 12:56 PM
As much as i love CloudXTifa, there relationship in the compilation regardless of what it is seems really cold.
His bond with her was warmer in the game, but with Aeris it feels like there is more love there (even friend love or whatever)

Elly
01-20-2010, 02:32 PM
i wouldn't say their relationship is cold as much as it's just not all up in your face... being married for six years now i can honestly say i feel there is nothing abnormal about how they act around each other in the compilation... usualy around the two year mark is when all the lovie-dovieness starts to wear out completely... and AC is only two years after meteorfall add to that the complications of a dying child, a sense of helplesness and the knowledge that he's dying and there's nothing he can do to help himself or anyone else, and yeah i can understand that they're not up in everyones face about it, they've got other things to worry about...

as for the bed in his office, i used to have a bed in my office at home for day naps and such, there's nothing odd about it at all...

PeneloRatsbane
01-20-2010, 03:41 PM
yeah you are right. I do like that more realistic edge to the relationship.

I think my problem is not with Cloud and Tifa's relationship specifically, but rather with the compilation its self.

The original game, while it had dark and very sad moments, it still managed to never seem dreary. but i feel the comilation went to far the other way, especially AC, there were bits where i was just flat out bored and just bummed out.

Shishikabob
01-22-2010, 04:47 AM
I thought I'd post this here for those of you who might be interested. I've been working on Japanese lately and I've gotten to a point where I can translate stuff to a legible degree. BUT I am still learning, and I make mistakes... I can get the gist of something across but... well that's where I'm at.

However, I did stumble across some interesting facts while translating the U20 profiles.


Aerith's first love, a young first class SOLDIER named Zack, went missing 5 years ago. He was Cloud's best friend and the person who largely affected Cloud's behavior. Aerith doesn't know the two of them were best friends. Aerith sees Zack's behavior in Cloud, and that's why she's interested in him.
Here's the Japanese text if someone wants to check my work:

エアリスの初恋の相手は、5年前に消息を絶ったソルジャー・クラス1stの青年ザックスだ。彼はクラウドの親友でもあり、クラウドの行動に大きな影響を与えた人物。エアリスはふたりが親友同士ということは知らなか ったが、クラウドのしぐさのなかにザックスを見いだし、クラウドに興味を抱く


And now the real kicker, the one people have been debating about for years. I actually debated on the losing end of this one. Was Aerith in denial over Zack's death? The U20 profile gives us this answer:


At the time this story begins, Zack is already dead, but Aerith does not perceive this truth.
Again Japanese text:

物語の開始時点においてザックスはすでに故人なのだが, エアリスはその事実を知らない
This word here: 知 (chi) means perceive, comprehend or know. It can also just mean knowledge but that doesn't fit the sentence.

Now it's possible it's saying she doesn't KNOW this truth, but the way the statement is worded, it sounds like it's saying she can't see or understand the truth. In other words, I'm fairly certain this is saying she was in denial. Although I'm not sure I should be making a judgment like that, so if any Japanese speakers here want to take a look, that's cool.

Thoughts?

Ryushikaze
01-22-2010, 08:54 PM
Yeah, I'll get back to actually responding to this later if anyone cares.
In the meantime-

This just in: The Love Triangle Debate- over. | The Lifestream (http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-advent-children-complete/6139/this-just-in-the-love-triangle-debate-over/)

QED.

Shishikabob
01-23-2010, 01:02 AM
Fuck you Ryu I was gonna post it :(

Skyblade
01-23-2010, 06:55 AM
smurf you Ryu I was gonna post it :(

Ryu wrote it, he gets the honor of settling it in the forums.

Great job, Ryu.

Has anyone posted this at a dedicated Clerith site yet? I would so want to see the reaction.

Shishikabob
01-23-2010, 10:43 AM
No but I made a video :monster:

YouTube - Dearly Beloved: Love Triangle of FFVII Officially Over (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up5-_CiVLxs)

Mercen-X
01-23-2010, 07:58 PM
Cloud and Tifa are just close friends. Cloud would screw Yuffie given the chance, but he doesn't love her. Aerith was more like a mom or a big sister. Cloud's real love interest was Zack. Why else do you think he took on Zack's memories and mission? :roll2

Shishikabob
01-24-2010, 09:15 AM
Has anyone posted this at a dedicated Clerith site yet? I would so want to see the reaction.
They know of it, they're just kind of figuring out what to make of it right now.

Roogle
01-24-2010, 09:27 AM
My impression of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa mirrored what was mentioned in the video and what was said in Final Fantasy 20th Anniversary Ultimania Scenario. Others with similar opinions have direct evidence from Square Enix to cite in the Shipping Wars (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Shipping+Wars).

LadyRelena
02-05-2010, 02:35 AM
I know this is somewhat off topic but does anyone know the contected of the creator for the now dead site known as [ Loveless ] Tifa Lockhart? I really wanted to use some of her content in perhaps making my own site to Tifa and maybe Cloud and Tifa. If someone knows her email or any way to get to her that would be great.

Shishikabob
02-06-2010, 05:49 AM
Yeah that has nothing to do with the topic. WTF?

OT
I can't believe people are still fighting this. Cloud and Tifa admit their feelings without words on a page of romantic love. What is so ambiguous?

LadyRelena
02-16-2010, 10:00 AM
I was just asking a simple question Christ. :stare:

Anyway, on topic... Most Claeris are nitoreous for having delusional and irrational arguments with little evidence whatsoever. Here are a list of arguments that I feel are sure to come since the latest news

"I refuse to believe any translations made by fans and will only acknowledge it if SE America translates it."

"Cloud was in love with Aeris and it was only when he got his memories back that he loved Tifa."

"If Aeris hadn't died, she would have been with Cloud to help get his memories back and he would have been in love with her, not Tifa.

"By the time Advent Children comes around he has fallen out of love with Tifa and realized that Aeris was his true love. That's why he goes to her flower fields at the end of the movie."

"That's okay because Cloud will end up with Aeris in Kingdom Hearts. The light Tifa gave Cloud was only 'her' light and not 'his light.' That's why it hurt him when she first tried to give it to him. She's also a stalker that he's trying to run away from like the creators said."

These are just a few of the feeble attempts that could be made by die-hard Claeris fans.

line_genrou
02-16-2010, 03:20 PM
Aerith extends her hand out to Cloud with her palm face down (implying 'want' or 'longing') rather than face up (beckoning/leading).


This is the best one.

Mercen-X
02-16-2010, 05:06 PM
wow...

Shishikabob
02-20-2010, 11:42 AM
"I refuse to believe any translations made by fans and will only acknowledge it if SE America translates it."

"Cloud was in love with Aeris and it was only when he got his memories back that he loved Tifa."

"If Aeris hadn't died, she would have been with Cloud to help get his memories back and he would have been in love with her, not Tifa.

"By the time Advent Children comes around he has fallen out of love with Tifa and realized that Aeris was his true love. That's why he goes to her flower fields at the end of the movie."

"That's okay because Cloud will end up with Aeris in Kingdom Hearts. The light Tifa gave Cloud was only 'her' light and not 'his light.' That's why it hurt him when she first tried to give it to him. She's also a stalker that he's trying to run away from like the creators said."
lol what? I'm a member of CxA forums and I've never heard any Cleriths say any of these... yes they have some ... creative ideas but none of these are even close to what they say. None of them believe Cloud loved Tifa at any time for starters.

And the first one is a valid concern since each side thinks the other side has bias translators.

The last one is kind of true but I've yet to see a Clerith say that it's "okay" if Cloud and Tifa fall in love in FFVII because of KH.

PeneloRatsbane
02-20-2010, 03:25 PM
"I refuse to believe any translations made by fans and will only acknowledge it if SE America translates it."

"Cloud was in love with Aeris and it was only when he got his memories back that he loved Tifa."

"If Aeris hadn't died, she would have been with Cloud to help get his memories back and he would have been in love with her, not Tifa.

"By the time Advent Children comes around he has fallen out of love with Tifa and realized that Aeris was his true love. That's why he goes to her flower fields at the end of the movie."

"That's okay because Cloud will end up with Aeris in Kingdom Hearts. The light Tifa gave Cloud was only 'her' light and not 'his light.' That's why it hurt him when she first tried to give it to him. She's also a stalker that he's trying to run away from like the creators said."
lol what? I'm a member of CxA forums and I've never heard any Cleriths say any of these... yes they have some ... creative ideas but none of these are even close to what they say. None of them believe Cloud loved Tifa at any time for starters.

And the first one is a valid concern since each side thinks the other side has bias translators.

The last one is kind of true but I've yet to see a Clerith say that it's "okay" if Cloud and Tifa fall in love in FFVII because of KH.


You can't bunch everyone in together, people have their own opinions. I personally am more on the Clerith Team but there is no denying that there is love between Cloud and Tifa, past, present or future its there, its just a bit boring, lol.

Personally I recon he would have hooked up with Aeris had she not have died, but she did and she's not coming back so it makes sense for him to be with Tifa

Mercen-X
02-20-2010, 09:04 PM
KILL CLOUD!

Cloud
Barrett
Johnny
Biggs
Wedge
Zack
Vincent

The winners... Tifa loves Rufus... Aerith loves Sephiroth.

Tifa
Aerith
Yuffie

The winner... Cloud loves Corneo.

I've got an idea: Help me choose between my girlfriend and my ex. One wants to move to Canada. The other has a dad fresh out of prison.
GO TO IT!

line_genrou
02-20-2010, 10:54 PM
To Cleriths is more likely that Cloud fell in love with Aerith,within the 2/3 weeks they knew each other while he was confused and was acting like someone else,than for him to have loved Tifa,despite the fact that he left to join SOLDIER because of her and other reasons shown through the game.

PeneloRatsbane
02-21-2010, 01:11 PM
Look Cloud and Tifa is the end game relationship thats great right, but and its taken me along time to admit this as I used to be 100% Cloti, But its just a boring relationship. Its no surprise that people look for alternatives. Aeris just mixes things up a bit and without that aspect of the game its just well boring.

line_genrou
02-21-2010, 03:07 PM
How so? Aerith is dead.How can she "mix things up" ?

PeneloRatsbane
02-21-2010, 04:20 PM
I meant for the purposes of the original story.

Mercen-X
02-21-2010, 09:54 PM
That's just like my mom constantly wishing that I'd marry a Phillipina girl to bring back some of the islander in my blood through future generations... despite the fact that I already have a girlfriend.

PeneloRatsbane
02-21-2010, 10:59 PM
Did you just want to share that information?
This is a work of fiction, it becomes a completely different matter when it comes to a human being, who is capable of free will. Fiction is open to interpretation.
I didn't say it should be a certain way, i'm just trying to look at things from another perspective. Tifa/Cloud is the cannon, not disputing that.

Rase
02-22-2010, 02:15 AM
Red XIII. Real reason he saved Aerith from being shagged by our friend in heat was because he envied her position.

Serapy
02-22-2010, 04:46 PM
I take that back. The 20th Ultimania now states that Cloud actually matches his feelings with Tifa's feelings (love) before the last boss battle.

So, it was Tifa who he truly loved.

Mercen-X
02-23-2010, 05:57 PM
Well so, it is then now presently time to quickly eventually stop, end, and close this irrelevent thread, yes-no? :cool:

Shishikabob
02-24-2010, 10:50 AM
Some people are still in denial about it :(

Jiro
02-25-2010, 01:49 PM
Has anyone entertained the notion he loved them both? Or the chance that the death of Aeris whom he loved (either in a romantic or platonic way) would have shaken him so severely he couldn't/wouldn't love anyone ever again?

Flying Mullet
02-25-2010, 03:24 PM
I think he hated them both and was stringing them along for his own selfish ambitions.

Kyros
02-25-2010, 06:28 PM
I still don't see any hinting through the whole game that he prefers Aeris unless you choose it and ignore everyone else, but several sequences throughout the entire game show how Cloud and Tifa have always loved and been looking out for one another.

line_genrou
02-25-2010, 10:50 PM
People like to think it's Aerith just because of the drama.
The girl that the guy loved died!
Something like Romeo and Juliet,tragic like that.

People love drama.

Kyros
02-26-2010, 12:26 AM
There's drama all over the place in the game, but I don't see how that makes the relationship anything else other than what it was.

line_genrou
02-26-2010, 01:51 AM
Romantic drama.

PeneloRatsbane
02-26-2010, 11:00 PM
Friend or potential love interest, she has a massive impact on his life. I just want to believe he loved both because it makes the story more....realistic (not the best word for it but you know). In life you never just love one person and thats it. You love many people and suffer heartbreak and you grow from it.

Shishikabob
02-27-2010, 11:23 AM
Of course he loved both. But he never had a chance to let his love for Aerith really grow and in the lifestream he realized he was meant to be with Tifa. That's all there is to it really.

PeneloRatsbane
02-27-2010, 01:24 PM
Of course he loved both. But he never had a chance to let his love for Aerith really grow and in the lifestream he realized he was meant to be with Tifa. That's all there is to it really.

Yeah thats it, nicely put.

Ryushikaze
03-02-2010, 04:07 PM
Anyway, on topic... Most Claeris are nitoreous for having delusional and irrational arguments with little evidence whatsoever. Here are a list of arguments that I feel are sure to come since the latest news

"I refuse to believe any translations made by fans and will only acknowledge it if SE America translates it."

Been done. ShroudedG.


"Cloud was in love with Aeris and it was only when he got his memories back that he loved Tifa."

Have not seen. Admitting he loved Tifa, period, not high on their priority list.


"If Aeris hadn't died, she would have been with Cloud to help get his memories back and he would have been in love with her, not Tifa.

Been made before.


"By the time Advent Children comes around he has fallen out of love with Tifa and realized that Aeris was his true love. That's why he goes to her flower fields at the end of the movie."

Variations of this have been made time and again.


"That's okay because Cloud will end up with Aeris in Kingdom Hearts. The light Tifa gave Cloud was only 'her' light and not 'his light.' That's why it hurt him when she first tried to give it to him. She's also a stalker that he's trying to run away from like the creators said."[/COLOR]



Been done.


These are just a few of the feeble attempts that could be made by die-hard Claeris fans.

Have.


lol what? I'm a member of CxA forums and I've never heard any Cleriths say any of these... yes they have some ... creative ideas but none of these are even close to what they say. None of them believe Cloud loved Tifa at any time for starters.

All the others have been said, however, Quex. You've seen them.


And the first one is a valid concern since each side thinks the other side has bias translators.

Which is why one side is open with their sources and provides the japanese and the methodology, and the other side is still paranoid and doesn't like it.


The last one is kind of true but I've yet to see a Clerith say that it's "okay" if Cloud and Tifa fall in love in FFVII because of KH.

She's saying they'll say 'KH shows us the truth and Aerith is his light!' which they have done.

Forsaken Lover
03-05-2010, 01:01 AM
My question is simply this.

Why does anyone care?

Shishikabob
03-07-2010, 06:49 AM
All the others have been said, however, Quex. You've seen them.
Not really since a lot of them say "Cloud loved Tifa BUT!..." and I've yet to see any of them say Cloud loved Tifa.

Aerith's Knight
03-12-2010, 04:37 PM
Do you even need to ask?

And after 12 years..


My question is simply this.

Why does anyone care?

This.

PeneloRatsbane
03-12-2010, 08:37 PM
Do you even need to ask?

And after 12 years..


My question is simply this.

Why does anyone care?

This.


Because come on, what else is there left to debate about for this game

Aerith's Knight
03-13-2010, 02:35 AM
Do you even need to ask?

And after 12 years..


My question is simply this.

Why does anyone care?

This.


Because come on, what else is there left to debate about for this game

There is nothing left to debate. That's my point.

Let's wrap up what we'll come out to in the end.

1. Cloud liked Tifa as a child. Tifa was bitchy and ignored him.
2. Cloud likes/loves Aerith, everything's great, then she dies.
3. Tifa comforts Cloud, brings him into sanity, and they fall in love, eventually adopting two mentally disturbed children.

There, this thread in three sentences.

Shishikabob
03-13-2010, 11:44 PM
1. Cloud liked Tifa as a child. Tifa was bitchy and ignored him.
yeah... no.... yeah.. uhm.. yeah... no.... yeah... no...

just no

The Man
03-14-2010, 05:38 AM
Also, there's no evidence that Cloud ever loved Aerith as anything more than a friend.

Shishikabob
03-14-2010, 07:50 AM
To be fair she is featured on the "The One That I Love" page and it does talk about the protagonists of which she IS one... but it says that scene doesn't matter so...

PeneloRatsbane
03-14-2010, 11:43 AM
Do you even need to ask?

And after 12 years..


My question is simply this.

Why does anyone care?

This.


Because come on, what else is there left to debate about for this game

There is nothing left to debate. That's my point.

Let's wrap up what we'll come out to in the end.

1. Cloud liked Tifa as a child. Tifa was bitchy and ignored him.
2. Cloud likes/loves Aerith, everything's great, then she dies.
3. Tifa comforts Cloud, brings him into sanity, and they fall in love, eventually adopting two mentally disturbed children.

There, this thread in three sentences.


Yeah I agree, but everyone else is going off about every tiny thing.

line_genrou
03-17-2010, 11:10 PM
I'm a firm believer that some people dedicate their lives to this discussion.

The Man
03-18-2010, 09:12 AM
That's a pretty accurate assessment.

Shishikabob
04-03-2010, 07:15 AM
What's your point? (*points to sig*)

No.78
04-03-2010, 11:26 AM
Tifa, then Aeris turned up and then she died and then he went back to Tifa.

He's only settling for what he can get, though.

Shishikabob
04-05-2010, 10:47 AM
And what proof do you have of this?

finalblackmage
04-13-2010, 05:56 PM
I always thought Tifa I never really saw Cloud being interested in Aeris as more than an important friend. He loved her for so long ever since they were kids that's so cute! :love:

LadyRelena
04-19-2010, 02:43 AM
1. Cloud liked Tifa as a child. Tifa was bitchy and ignored him. I can't say enough how much this old ass argument disgusts me. She barely knew Could and never knew how badly he wanted to be friends with her. But hey I guess that's her fault for not being a mind reader. What a bitch.
2. Cloud likes/loves Aerith, everything's great, then she dies. Yeah because it totally makes more sense that Cloud would fall for a girl who he only knew for a total of what... a month maybe? Two months....
Tifa, then Aeris turned up and then she died and then he went back to Tifa.

He's only settling for what he can get, though. I guess if Aeris had lived they would have gotten together and lived happily with his life of lies and made up memories. I could just see the great love they would have had together the minuet all the fake bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: came crashing down on him. Aeris should have prepared for permanent vegetable Could since she wouldn't have been able to do :bou::bou::bou::bou: about it. Poor Cloud having to settle for the girl he has always liked. Too bad Tifa was so desperate for his love to see that he would rather have Aeris had she lived. This is exactly why this debit will never end. This crap is so tiring.

Mercen-X
04-20-2010, 08:32 PM
Cloud is a SLUT (http://www.deviantart.com/#order=9&q=slut+cloud)

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a156/Mercen-X/cloud_the_man_slut.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a156/Mercen-X/Highwind_Auto___Vroom_Vroom_by_owmy.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a156/Mercen-X/he_doesn__t_get_paid____LxC_by_prox.jpg

Omni-Odin
04-20-2010, 10:31 PM
Ya this may be an old thread, but not old enough to explain that the title of thread is who is cloud's love interest. Cloud never shows any affection for Tifa....like everrrr. Meanwhile Cloud is having dreams and nightmares for years mourning Aeris's death.

Plus ya'll know if Aeris didn't bite it, Cloud would've married that girl and produced little Cetra children.

LadyRelena
04-23-2010, 12:48 AM
Ya this may be an old thread, but not old enough to explain that the title of thread is who is cloud's love interest. Cloud never shows any affection for Tifa....like everrrr. Meanwhile Cloud is having dreams and nightmares for years mourning Aeris's death.

Plus ya'll know if Aeris didn't bite it, Cloud would've married that girl and produced little Cetra children.

Wow I can totally see that you were paying attention to the game and all of talk that's been going on in this thread. Smart one. :sweatdrop: :screwy:

ChickenHeart
04-23-2010, 11:29 AM
I think it was a bit of both, i think he always dug the pair of them equally, Tifa slightly more. So i'm team Tifa :D also, i think if tifa died instead of aerith, he still would of done the same mourning he did for aerith

Shishikabob
04-25-2010, 03:04 AM
Ya this may be an old thread, but not old enough to explain that the title of thread is who is cloud's love interest. Cloud never shows any affection for Tifa....like everrrr. Meanwhile Cloud is having dreams and nightmares for years mourning Aeris's death.
Let me point out a few quotes for you:
------------------------------------
(FFVIIUO, pg. 15)
最終決戦を前に一時解散を宣言し、飛空艇に残ったティファと想いを通わせる。

"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him."


(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. "


(FFVIIUO, pg. 27)
ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを 確かめ合う。

"If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm that their feelings of desire/wanting for one another match."


(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお互い の想いを打ち明け、そして……。

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......."


(CCU, pg. 33)
クラウドとは物語の終盤に想いを通わせ、「AC」「DC」の時代は一緒に暮らしている。

"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together."


(FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)
残ったクラウドとティファは、互いへの想いを打ち明け、確かめ合う。

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match."


(U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で互いの想いを打ち明 け合う。

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."


(U20 Scenario, pg. 394)
「VII」最終決戦前夜に
ティファのおかげで自分を取り戻したクラウドはセフィロスとの最後の戦いを前に言葉では伝えられない想いを 彼女と確かめ合う

"VII - The night before the final battle
Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match."




And for good measure, everything else that's ever been said about the scene:

(FFVIIUO, pg. 27; complete entry)
クラウドの提案で一時解散することになるが、飛空艇に残り、クラウドと想いを通わせる。翌朝、もどってきた 仲間とともに北の大空洞へ発つ*

「想いをつたえられるのは言葉だけじゃないよ……」
ーふたりきりになり、言葉に詰まるクラウドに

ティファのクラウドに対する好感度が高い場合、飛空艇に残ったふたりは、互いを求める気持ちを確かめ合う。 このセリフは、そんな会話の最後にティファが口にするもの。告げ た直後にティファが浮かべる、すべてを受けいれるような微笑みが印象的だ。

*最後の戦りへの決意を固めたDISC 3でも、内心の恐怖を抑え切れないティファ。飛空艇の操縦室でクラウドが話しかけると、「『だいじょうぶ』って言って?」と頼んでくる。心細げだがどこか甘えたふうなティファと、「だいじょうぶ」と答えたときのク ラウドの様子が、いかにも心を通わせたふたりらしく、微笑ましい。ちなみに、ここでのふたりのやり取りは、 以前ティファが弱気になったときにもらしたセリフ(P.26の一番下で引用したもの)がもとになっている。

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. The next morning, she departs for the Northern Crater along with her companions, who returned.

'Words aren't the only thing that tell people what you're thinking......'
-Said to Cloud, when he is at a loss for words while they're alone

If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm their matching feelings of desire/wanting to one another. This line is said by Tifa at the conversation's end. Immediately after saying it, Tifa forms a striking smile that summarizes everything."


(FFVIIUO, pg. 39)
ユフィは知らないが、直前にクラウドはティファとふたりきりの夜を過ごしたばかり。さすが、女のカンは鋭い ?

"Yuffie is unaware that Cloud and Tifa had just spent the night together. Woman's intuition is as perceptive as ever, no?"


(FFVIIUO, pg. 198)
決戦前夜に……
宝条の暴走を止めてから大空洞へ突入するまでにくり広げられるティファとの会話場面は、ティファの好感度によって分岐する。好感度が低いと、ふたりで夜を明かす場面の会話が淡白で短め。翌朝の操縦室の場面では、テ ィファが「聞いてたの?」と言ってつま先をトントンとする。一方、好感度が高いと、ふたりで夜を明かす場面 の会話が濃く、操縦室ではティファが「見てたの?」と恥ずかしがってへたりこむのだ。

"Night before the final battle......
After stopping Hojo's recklessness and before heading to the Northern Crater, the conversation scene with Tifa can diverge drastically depending on Tifa's affection rating. When the affection rating is low, the conversation scene where the two spend the evening is candid and rather short. In the scene on the bridge the next morning, Tifa asks 'Were you listening?' and taps her foot. On the other hand, if the affection rating is high, the two spend the evening in focused conversation, and on the bridge, Tifa asks 'Were you watching?' and collapses in embarassment."


(FFVIIUO, pg. 201)
最終決戦を前に……
クラウドとティファが草原で夜を明かし、飛空艇で仲間たちと合流するまでの会話は、ティファの好感度によっ て変化する。好感度が高いと、クラウドとティファの互いを想う気 持ちがセリフに強く表れるのだ。

[Screenshot caption]
飛空艇にもどったユフィは、クラウドたちの会話内容にかかわらず「クラウドやさしいねえ。なんかあった?」 と話す。

"Before the final battle......
Variations determined by Tifa's affection rating apply from the beginning of the evening with Cloud and Tifa on the grassland until the conversation where they reunite with their companions on the airship. If the affection rating is high, Cloud and Tifa convey their feelings in powerful lines.

[Screenshot caption]
Upon returning to the airship, Yuffie will say 'Gee, Cloud...... that's so nice of you to say that. ......You sick?' regardless of the contents of the conversation of Cloud's conversation."


(FFVII 10th AU, pg. 9; both editions)
北瀬 決戦前夜の飛空艇でのエベントも加藤さんですよね。
野島 ああ、きわどいセリフがあるところですか?あれを書いたのも、僕ではなくて加藤さんです 。
ーー「想いをつたえられるのは、言葉だけじゃないよ」というセリフですね。『FF』としては、かなり大人っ ぽい会話でした。
北瀬 それでも、あまりにもどぎつい表現は抑えてもらった覚えがありますね。
野島 当初のアイデアは、もっと過激でしたから。飛空艇のなかにあるチョコボ部屋からクラウドが先に出てきて、そのあとティファが周囲をうかがいながら出てくるっていう案だったんですけど、それはさすがに北瀬さん が却卜下してました。でも、問題のセリフしても、当時はそんなに重要なことだと誰も思ってなかったのもしれ ない(笑)。

(Translation from the frontpage article on this)
Kitase: Katou also did the event on the airship, the night before the final battle.
Nojima: Oh, the scene with the risqu line of dialogue? It was Katou who wrote that as well, not me.
- The line “Words aren’t the only way to talk someone how you feel,” right? That was quite a mature conversation for a FF game.
Kitase: But I remember having to get another version that was too intense toned down.
Nojima: The original idea was more extreme. The plan was to have Cloud walk out of the Chocobo stable on board the Highwind, followed by Tifa leaving while checking around, but Kitase turned it down. But even with the line in question, maybe at that time none of us thought it would be something so important (laughs).


(U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232)
分岐
決戦前の会話は2種粨ある
決戦前にクラウドとティファが交わす会話の内容は、ティファの好感度によって変わる。好感度が高いと、ふたりの会話が、お互いを強く思いやるような深い内容になるのだ。また、ふたりの樣子を仲間たちが見ていたこと が翌朝発覚し、ティファが照れる場面では、好感度の高いときのほうが、彼女の照れかたが大きい 。

"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."


(FFVII International Memorial Album, pp. 241-242)
[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene the only one included in script of the game]


(U20 Scenario, pg. 199)
[Script of high affection version of the Highwind scene included as one of four "Impressive Scenes" selected to represent the game at the beginning of its section of the book]
------------------------------------

Also the creators disagree about Cloud and Aerith making Cetra children:


“Case of Tifa … first, there’s the premise that things aren’t going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I don’t mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aerith’s responsibility is big, I think.”
That doesn't sound too sure for me.

As for Aerith's death, Why does someone wanting forgiveness from someone mean true love? He wanted forgiveness from Zack too. By your logic that makes him gay and in love with Zack.


Two years after returning to the planet, Aerith still lives on in the hearts of her friends who saved the planet. And in particular to Cloud, as a symbol of his failure to having being unable protect those dear to him
Those dear to him = more than one.


“If I win, are my sins forgiven?” — Cloud: battling against Cloud.

Cloud continued to regret the deaths of his best friend and comrade, who were dear to him, in FFVII. In AC, he says “I want to be forgiven.”
Once again, plural. Guess he sure loves Zack. It also says "best friend and comrade" not "Best friend and true love"

Again this is all the creator's statements not just stuff I'm guessing on. Really if there's one thing they've been unclear about, who Cloud loves isn't it.


I think it was a bit of both, i think he always dug the pair of them equally, Tifa slightly more. So i'm team Tifa :D also, i think if tifa died instead of aerith, he still would of done the same mourning he did for aerith
Yep

line_genrou
04-26-2010, 05:19 PM
Ya this may be an old thread, but not old enough to explain that the title of thread is who is cloud's love interest. Cloud never shows any affection for Tifa....like everrrr. Meanwhile Cloud is having dreams and nightmares for years mourning Aeris's death.

Plus ya'll know if Aeris didn't bite it, Cloud would've married that girl and produced little Cetra children.

Wow I can totally see that you were paying attention to the game and all of talk that's been going on in this thread. Smart one. :sweatdrop: :screwy:


She probably just watched Advent Children.
Like some Cleriths.

Shishikabob
06-05-2010, 07:34 AM
Sorry to bump this but I feel I should do this since the other side of the fence has been using this defense for a while now and I know some of these people and I guess it wouldn't be right for me to not point out their defense in response to this (http://forums.eyesonff.com/2780013-post160.html).

Is the Love Triangle Over (http://clerith.com/Is%20LT%20Over.htm)

I disagree heavily, I believe this page is just saying, "This is how you get to the romantic scene" and it doesn't even mention the low affection... but you never know what others might think :monster:

silentenigma
06-10-2010, 07:35 PM
I wonder what people would think if the authors of the great works of literature of the world came back seven years after completing a novel, and each had one of their colleagues write a page-by-page walk-through giving vague explanations for every detail which had previously been left to the reader's interpretation.

champagne supernova
06-10-2010, 10:49 PM
I wonder what people would think if the authors of the great works of literature of the world came back seven years after completing a novel, and each had one of their colleagues write a page-by-page walk-through giving vague explanations for every detail which had previously been left to the reader's interpretation.

And then have that walkthrough become canon.

But I always thought that Tifa was the main interest. It doesn't mean he didn't want to do Aerith as well, but Tifa was the childhood sweetheart and would always win.

Aerith being offed just made his decision simpler.

DarkMateria
06-18-2010, 01:10 AM
Tifa is definately the main love interest.

When did Cloud ever steal any of Aeriths undergarments. You just dont go into anybodies room and randomly steal their underwear. Either that or Cloud is a sick perv.

Shishikabob
06-18-2010, 06:00 AM
When did Cloud ever steal any of Aeriths undergarments. You just dont go into anybodies room and randomly steal their underwear. Either that or Cloud is a sick perv.
I think it's a little of both actually. Also just to get to the point of that other essay that was posted.

The issue I take with what she's saying is that, "On this page it says the High Affection scene is optional, therefore Cloti is optional" and yes when TLS posted the article, they did not mention this quote on another page:

"Deviation
2 versions of the conversation before the final battle
Prior to the final battle, the contents of the conversation between Cloud and Tifa can change depending on the degree of Tifa's affection. If the degree of affection is high, the contents of the two's conversation will involve deep subject matter and strong feelings for each other. As well, the sight of the two seen by their companions the next morning will lead to an embarassing scene for Tifa, and she blushes greatly."
(U20 Scenario, margin of pg. 232)

But there are a few problems here. Her article says that the low affection scene is "apathetic and ends short" according to a quote by Nojima. I agree with this. So basically, whatever "feelings" were shared, are ONLY shared in the high affection version. This particular quote is MORE confirmation that no feelings are shared in the low affection version.

Now look at these:

---------------------------
"Declares that the team should dissolve in the final hours before the final battle, and communicates his feelings together with Tifa, who remains behind at the airship with him." (FFVIIUO, pg. 15)

"When Cloud proposes that the group separates temporarily, she remains behind at the airship and communicates her feelings together with Cloud. " (FFVIIUO, pg. 27)

"When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and......." (FFVIIUO, pg. 198)

"She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together." (CCU, pg. 33)

"Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other and confirm them to match." (FFVII 10th AU, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition)

"And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, they disclose that their feelings for each other match."
(U20 Scenario, pg. 232; main body of story summary)
-----------------------------

So all of these quotes do NOT say "If this" or "IF THAT" they just say, "This is what happened, period." In other words, Square is telling us that no matter what scene the player may have gotten, in the true canon outcome of that scene feelings were shared. Think of how Vincent and Yuffie is optional, but we know for a fact that they joined the team because they are shown in ACC and DoC and what not. The highwind scene ALSO has a canon outcome. Square has said this numerous times. Since we know feelings are NOT shared in the low affection version, the scene where feelings are shared must be canon. So now we have two things for sure.

1. The canon outcome of that scene has Cloud and Tifa sharing feelings.
2. They are feeling of romantic love.

You should be able to connect the dots from there. That's all.

Tonberry_King
07-12-2010, 06:20 PM
Cloud and Tifa were childhood friends, so of course they'd have more time to develop feelings. Not to mention their convo outside the airship (wink wink, nudge nudge).

However, I think the developers meant for Aerith to be Cloud's main love interest. I'm not spoiling anything, but get to the end of disc 1 and you;ll see why.

The Man
07-12-2010, 09:06 PM
Except that the developers have explicitly said that Cloud wasn't his real self for the entirety of disc one. Plus showing grief over a friend's death doesn't mean he has romantic feelings for them.

DarkBahamut
07-12-2010, 10:03 PM
THEY ARE ENGAGED/MARRIED ALREADY. In AC, they show her ring and how she wants her to move on off of Aeris's death, because now they have their own lives ahead.

And Cloud doesn't love Aeris. He always thinks of her, because he is heart-broken that he let her die and witnessed her death 2 feet away from her and didn't even try stopping Sephiroth.

Plus, Cloud n' Tifa make a better couple anyways. And Aeris found interest in Cloud because he reminded her of Zack. She reminisced of Zack, but didn't love Cloud. If anyone, she loved Zack. I'm not hating on Cloud and Aeris fans, but I think Tifa and Cloud match much better.

The only reason Aeris and Cloud could be cool is because Cloud's mother told him that he should find a girl slightly older than him to take care of him.

BUT the biggest reason Cloud probably loves Tifa is because....well her chest :jess: (I had to mention her bust somewhere in this post.)

sephyroth
07-12-2010, 10:04 PM
You see, heres the deal Cloud loves Aerith\Aeris for disc one,but then she
dies(o oh) so then cloud is forced to love Tifa(it's ether her or yuffie!)

LadyRelena
10-07-2010, 02:58 AM
As much as I agree with all the evidence you presented on Cloud and Tifa's relationship, there are some quotes in the list that seem to be leaning toward Cloud x Aeris.



If Tifa's affection regarding Cloud is high, when the two stay behind at the airship, they will confirm their matching feelings of desire/wanting to one another. This line is said by Tifa at the conversation's end. Immediately after saying it, Tifa forms a striking smile that summarizes everything."

This makes it sound like Cloud's feelings only match because Tifa's affection is high. Meaning that Cloud only loves her if the player does; not because it's part of the game story.


Case of Tifa first, theres the premise that things arent going well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma and Sephiroth, it would still be the same. I dont mean to get into my views on romantic love, marriage and family. (laughs) After ACC, maybe Denzel and Marlene can get them to. Perhaps things would have gone well with Aerith, but Aeriths responsibility is big, I think.

And this makes it sound like Cloud would have been better off and better matched if he had ended up with Aeris instead of Tifa.

I hate to play devil's advocate because I really can't stand Aeris as a character, but you can see how I have my doubts.

Shishikabob
10-18-2010, 11:31 PM
And this makes it sound like Cloud would have been better off and better matched if he had ended up with Aeris instead of Tifa.
I'm only going to be a bitch because I'm sick of hearing this. What part of maybe don't you get?

Ryushikaze
10-18-2010, 11:51 PM
LR- Several other times, it is said that Cloud and Tifa confirm their matching feelings. No conditional statements involved. An 'if/then' statement is no match for a 'then' statement. Feelings were confirmed. That they only happen in one version means that version happened, not that an 'if' means we can't be sure.

On the other hand, it strikes me as off you focus on an If when numerous other events render it moot, but ignore a 'perhaps' that actually introduces ambiguity into the statement.

Be that as is may, LR, Even if it would have gone better with Aerith, he's with Tifa. LTD over.

Alive-Cat
10-19-2010, 04:53 PM
BOTH

Shishikabob
10-19-2010, 11:42 PM
Based on what?

|-THE redmage-|
10-20-2010, 05:24 AM
I say Tifa. She is the one that Cloud actually has some background with. I mean, he has known Tifa since his childhood. I think of Cloud loving Aeris the same as him thinking he is a first class Soldier, it's a memory of Zack's that he inherited. He isn't in love with Aeris, it's his inner-Zack coming out, so to say.

Shishikabob
10-20-2010, 08:49 AM
Cloud didn't inherit Zack's love for Aerith. He had some of his memories muddled, that's it. He didn't even KNOW about Aerith. The only members he remembered were what Zack told him and Zack never told him about Aerith. So if he felt anything for Aerith, it was really him feeling it... not Zack.

Sora & Riku Final Valor
10-27-2010, 01:07 AM
I think cloud's love interest is Tifa, even if he doesn't show it much because come on, he's CLOUD. He wouldn't try to get Aerith because that would be going behind Zack's dead back. Total backstabber if that would happen. So, my vote is for Tifa.http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cosplayhouse.com/images/D/Final_Fantasy_VII_Advent_Children_Tifa_Lockheart_shoes_ver_01-2-05.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cosplayhouse.com/Final-Fantasy-7-Advent-Children-Tifa-Lockheart-Cosplay-Shoes.html&usg=__htvhW6fw42D6QzfwkWxLGg5D-sA=&h=768&w=576&sz=21&hl=en&start=16&zoom=1&tbnid=DSLPETv9D-D3LM:&tbnh=134&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtifa%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1003%26bih%3D553%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C249&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=517&vpy=183&dur=1685&hovh=259&hovw=194&tx=136&ty=167&ei=imvHTNrHCYbGlQfZ7b20Ag&oei=hGvHTJrHHIG8lQeL86ziDw&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:16&biw=1003&bih=553

Wolfen
10-27-2010, 04:17 PM
Whenever I played VII, I never really felt like Cloud and Aeris were anything more than just a mercenary hired to protect someone. Besides, can you imagine cloud settling down and having kids?

Now, Cecil and Rosa, I can imagine having kids (and they did). Maybe if Aeris had been given more screen time, we could have seen their relationship develop more.

PeneloRatsbane
10-27-2010, 05:22 PM
I think cloud's love interest is Tifa, even if he doesn't show it much because come on, he's CLOUD. He wouldn't try to get Aerith because that would be going behind Zack's dead back. Total backstabber if that would happen. So, my vote is for Tifa.http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cosplayhouse.com/images/D/Final_Fantasy_VII_Advent_Children_Tifa_Lockheart_shoes_ver_01-2-05.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cosplayhouse.com/Final-Fantasy-7-Advent-Children-Tifa-Lockheart-Cosplay-Shoes.html&usg=__htvhW6fw42D6QzfwkWxLGg5D-sA=&h=768&w=576&sz=21&hl=en&start=16&zoom=1&tbnid=DSLPETv9D-D3LM:&tbnh=134&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtifa%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1003%26bih%3D553%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C249&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=517&vpy=183&dur=1685&hovh=259&hovw=194&tx=136&ty=167&ei=imvHTNrHCYbGlQfZ7b20Ag&oei=hGvHTJrHHIG8lQeL86ziDw&esq=2&page=2&ndsp=20&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:16&biw=1003&bih=553

Aeris is not a possession to be claimed, She doesn't belong to Zack, she went out with him and they had a relationship but he died. You think Zack would have wanted her to spend her life alone? nope, and Aeris wouldn't want Cloud to be alone forever. You love, you lose, such is life.

LadyRelena
10-28-2010, 10:40 AM
I'm only going to be a bitch because I'm sick of hearing this. What part of maybe don't you get?

You're acting as if you've said this to me before. I get that this retarded LTD has gotten to everyone by now but being a "bitch" to me isn't going to make the stupid people go away. I haven't even been on this thread for that long.


LR- Several other times, it is said that Cloud and Tifa confirm their matching feelings. No conditional statements involved. An 'if/then' statement is no match for a 'then' statement. Feelings were confirmed. That they only happen in one version means that version happened, not that an 'if' means we can't be sure.

Yeah I get this now


On the other hand, it strikes me as off you focus on an If when numerous other events render it moot, but ignore a 'perhaps' that actually introduces ambiguity into the statement.

Again, I haven't even been on this thread that long and there is so much evidence for CxT that I can't remember all of the "numerous other events" that "render it moot"


Be that as is may, LR, Even if it would have gone better with Aerith, he's with Tifa. LTD over.

The only reason why "maybe" and "if" concerned me was because I felt like it COULD give credence to all those people arguing "Cloud only ended up with Tifa because Aeris died and he had no other choice." If it's true that Cloud actually loved Aeris in a romantic sense (and not Tifa at all) then it flies in the face of all the "Mother" comments and foreshadowing that happen in the game and in AC.

People are also going to use this (if they haven't already) to imply that Cloud would never be with Tifa if he had been given a real choice over the two girls. It's basically a way to degrade Tifa's character while inferring that Cloud's feelings for her aren't as real as they could have been with Aeris.

This was why I mentioned those three quotations. "THE LTD IS OVER!" Yes, I know that and I'm glad, but I don't like "maybe's" and "if" being thrown around, giving amo to people looking for any excuse to make Tifa out to be Cloud's second rate token prize.

Honestly, this kind of hostile attitude you guys have makes me want to delete my account.

I<3CloudStrife
10-29-2010, 03:09 AM
Cloud likes aerith and Tifa BUT! read first before you correct me,Cloud only sees Aerith as a close friend...he feels guilty for her death....Cloud loves Tifa (i mean,she is his childhood friend/crush rite?)...he distanced himself from Tifa,Marlene and Denzel because of the disease. He felt that if he couldnt even protect himself,how can he protect them? he doesnt want what happened to Aerith and Zack to happen to Tifa,Marlene and Denzel.....
Aerith liked cloud because she thought he was more like Zack....she only likes him(Cloud) as a close friend...
AND...(yup..theres more),I think Tifa held back for awhile because she didnt want to ruin their friendship....
Oh yeah,another thing, "has feelings for.........." does mean they like that person more than a friend....

champagne supernova
10-29-2010, 08:13 PM
It could be really simple that he wants to bang both of them. You know, work with both options to lower risk. He is allowed to have romantic feelings for both of them. When Aerith died, his options narrowed from 2 to 1, and Tifa was chosen. Tifa may or may not have been chosen if someone didn't get a gigantic sword through her back, but once that happened, the point becomes moot.

Personally, I think that Tifa would have been chosen because there was greater traction with their personalities. But, it really is moot.

I<3CloudStrife
10-30-2010, 10:06 AM
you never know...maybe Cloud was more open to Aerith at first to make Tifa jealous......hmmmmmmmmm.......anyways,maybe he had feelings for Aerith too but he liked Tifa more.....

NeoCracker
10-30-2010, 04:27 PM
Can't we all just agree Cloud really just wanted a threesome?

with Barret and RedXIII...

I<3CloudStrife
10-30-2010, 05:12 PM
well,back then...when he was going through puberty.....