Ultimecia's background and motives *SPOILERS*

[Sir Bahamut]

I just thought some of you might be interested in knowing that the Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ over at GameFAQs has been significantly updated. The main big change is in the whole section on Ultimecia. TheOnionKnight has completely rewritten his "Unjust Persecution" theory, while Squall_Of_SeeD has rewritten a fair amount of the R=U bit.

What I'd really like to recommend you all to read is Onion's new "Unjust Persecution" theory. It's long, but very entertaining, and I will personally guarantee you that if you read it all you'll end up with a much higher opinion of Ultimecia and FF8 in general. It almost certainly is detailing the background and motives for Ultimecia that Square intended.

The FAQ can be found here:

Final Fantasy VIII FAQs, Walkthroughs, and Guides for PlayStation - GameFAQs (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/game/197343.html)

(Time/Ultimecia Plot FAQ)

Note there may be some small formatting issues since it was only just posted on GameFAQs earlier today. If you spot anything very wonky please let me know!

[Sir Bahamut]

By the way, feel free to discuss any aspect of the FAQ here :)

[Serapy]

Correct me if I'm wrong,

To simplify the theory, she basically came here to re-write the history of 'Ultimecia' because of what happened to itself in the first place? That was her main motive?
And her realisation of becoming the master of the universe is what greatly motivated her to re-write her history. I mean, it's pointless to re-write your own history if there's no reward.

This theory is definitely better than the generalized way: players thinking of Ultimecia as some boring villain who simply wanted to rule everything by Time Compression and that's it. And this theory definitely makes the plot more interesting. But I still feel that the R=U theory holds the #1 spot.

[Sir Bahamut]

Basically the idea is that her motivation for going evil in the first place was due to the fact that she was persecuted in her own time. Then, after she realizes that it is written in history that Squall will kill her, she turns her attention towards changing history via time compression. The fact that doing so would also give her complete control over space-time is then obviously part of the motivation too.

I'm glad to hear you liked it anyway. About R=U, if you meant #1 spot in terms of most interesting theory, well then I can't say much about that, but if you read the R=U section in the FAQ you should discover that the theory can't really be said to have the #1 spot in terms of most plausible theory!

[Serapy]

Understood, thank you!

I do admit that VIII has a stronger force of supporting the Unjust Persecution theory more than the R=U theory. If I focus entirely on the UP theory, the reasoning behind Ultimecia's dialogues in the present era actually seem to make sense, which also fit her motives.

The reason why I value R=U as the most interesting theory is because it's just that intriguing in my opinion. A woman who you love dearly happens to be the exact same woman from the future and out of no where, she's travelled to your present era with the intention of ruling your own universe. So, the ultimate question is, are you willing to fight against the person who you love dearly?

Sure, the R=U theory is not plausible. But if I ignore common sense and logic, and focus on connections instead, there always will be something (such as certain visual images or little hints) within the game that make me think something along the lines of "Wait a second, R=U? Er, maybe, maybe not."

Anyway, well done, guys!

[Sir Bahamut]

Thanks for that, although of course like I said it's TheOnionKnight who deserves full credit for the Unjust Persecution theory. I'm sure he's thankful too though!

[Ryushikaze]

The R=U theory has an interesting implication, but A: It's totally unjustified speaking element wise, and B: that implication already exists in the form of the 'Matron' dilemma.

As I was talking with SoS about earlier, I do think you and OK might be taking the phrase 'from beyond time' regarding the witches fought during time compression too literally, especially (if I was reading correctly) the Japanese version said something else there. In any case, even with the original game and its scan info, I've always thought of the Succession of witches as just that, a succession, that you strike down- though not necessarily kill, as Ultimecia controls them when you bleed into their time for brief moments.

I also think that you might technically be overthinking TC's 'mechanics' such as they are. I find a phrase used by the 10th Doctor explains the nature of TC well- 'Wibbly Wobbley ball of Timey-Wimey... stuff'. It's not that all time is a singularity, it's that all time is now touching and infringing on itself, so that time periods bleed through each other and one could 'trip' through time. Incidentally, I think temporal 'bleedthrough' as it were explains the hippie weirdness well enough.

Speaking of the Doctor, I'd describe him as 'from beyond time' too.

[Sir Bahamut]

The Japanese scan info translates roughly to

"Generation after generation of witches who appeared from beyond(/the other side of) space and time as a result of Time Compression."

I don't speak Japanese, but SoS seemed to think that the expression "beyond/the other side of" was vague enough to avoid any blatant contradiction, but I'm still sceptical. Assuming SoS's translation is sound then I can't see why they'd in any want to use that phrasing if they were actually real women from different eras. The entire sentence is pretty ambiguous to be honest. I'm not really sure what they are anymore. I dothink it'd be really lame if they were meant to be real because if so then Square did an absolutely terrible job.

As for TC, I definitely am overthinking its mechanics! Square certainly didn't put any significant amount of thought into the idea. Probably your description is roughly what they had in mind, but I don't like that kind of awfully vague, seemingly nonsensical description. Both me and Onion basically saw it as an interesting challenge to come up with a more solid model. Ultimately it's true that we can't fully avoid some sort of appeal to "it works because it's magic" but I think our attempts ended up somewhere fairly interesting!

[Ryushikaze]

Oh, it's interesting, I just think you might have taken the analogies you used a bit too far in the conceptualization of TC, but given it's utterly vague nature I suppose that's fair.

As for 'from beyond/ the other side', again, that just sounds like talking of time travelers and people from another time to me. Hell, taking it a bit literally, 'the other side' of time, if we are thinking of 'time walls' and 'doors through time' one could see it as talking of them being from where time was before the 'walls broke down' so to speak.
Or it could just be referring to the 'far end' of time.
Plus, I think as a whole it's a bigger leap for them to be formed from the aether or time than for them to just be a literal succession of possessed witches.

[Sir Bahamut]

There are plenty of things the phrase 'might' mean, like I said, it seems to leave just enough space to allow you to wriggle out of blatant absurdities. But I haven't heard a interpretation which fits in with them being real women which sounds in any way satisfying.

As for which is the bigger leap, I genuinely do think they're both about even. We already know TC is capable of producing landscapes and images based on peoples thoughts and emotions, and so it's hardly a big leap to think that Ulty's will could push TC into spawning actual beings (especially given that Ulty could create GF's in a flash even without TC). And then just look at how we first encounter them: the first one appears as Edea in the Commencement Room, but when you enter the battle she's turned into someone looking entirely different, as if she morphed right there and then. Doesn't seem that real to me!

[The Last Oath]

Awesome. I had a preety good grasp of things before but now it has really increased. Good Work.

[TyphoonThaReapa]

Ok, first of all I just want to say that this is my first time talking about a topic like this despite FF8 being the BEST GAME in the world for me. But after reading the entire FAQ, I just had to say something.

Sir Bahamut, I have nothing to say to you and OnionKnight and anyone else involved with this project but the fact that so far that was the best thing I ever read in life. No seriously, it was.

The way you guys presented you're cases and theories, which ultimately lead to inevitable and VERY clever evidence and support from the Game and the Ultimania themselves were astonishing enough on point.

The way OnionKnight presented his case about Ultimecia as a character, a villain, and a victim of the Game itself was amazingly well detailed and supported. And the sheer arrogance of the cow being killed and grilled to perfection was smurfin' deliciously priceless!

In the end, I understand that you guys a merely speculating about certain things in the entire project, but the amount of time and effort you guys have put into your project is illuminatingly apparent.

The reason I never REALLY joined debates about my favorite game ever is simple. I just like sitting back, watching, and listening, to people make an ass of themselves when the answers are pretty apparent. Even so, you guys enlightened me to a side of this Game I never thought was quite their, which was Ultimecia's back story and true motives.

Now here me out, I always knew Ulti was and will always be one of the most BAD ASS villian to ever grace a video game. But to put such emphasis on her entire being the way you guys did. To have the reader see what's happening in the environment around her, her life as a child, her thoughts, her feelings, her emotions, her inevitable fate is the universe that is FF8. Even though this is mostly speculation...YOU GUYS ARE THE :bou::bou::bou::bou:!!!

Now, one more thing before I leave this at what it is. I actually believe that there's a way you can take apart the Static Timeline Theory and the Dynamic Timeline Theory and combine certain aspect of the two to make one new theory which will make things more concrete and easier when explaining. Have you guys ever thought of that?

[Sir Bahamut]

Haha, thanks for the kind words, Typhoon! I'm glad you enjoyed it so much :D



Now, one more thing before I leave this at what it is. I actually believe that there's a way you can take apart the Static Timeline Theory and the Dynamic Timeline Theory and combine certain aspect of the two to make one new theory which will make things more concrete and easier when explaining. Have you guys ever thought of that?

We've always treated the two theories as completely separate really, but it'd be cool to hear any ideas you have on the matter!

[BG-57]

Unjust Persecution is everything I like about a game theory: well reasoned and supported by evidence. I just wish the game itself had given more specifics.

As for speculation, I like to think that she actually started as a SeeD, but was betrayed by her allies when they realised she was the witch of destiny they were trying to kill. I guess my fondness for Greek tragedies is showing. Anyways, there's not a scrap of proof for this, of course.

I'm off to listen to the Wicked ST. :D

[TyphoonThaReapa]

Haha, thanks for the kind words, Typhoon! I'm glad you enjoyed it so much :D



Now, one more thing before I leave this at what it is. I actually believe that there's a way you can take apart the Static Timeline Theory and the Dynamic Timeline Theory and combine certain aspect of the two to make one new theory which will make things more concrete and easier when explaining. Have you guys ever thought of that?We've always treated the two theories as completely separate really, but it'd be cool to hear any ideas you have on the matter!


That's exactly where both of your logics, although pretty good logics, falter. Remember when the two theories of the origins of the universe were the Steady State Theory and the Big Bang Theory? Well, although the Big Bang Theory had the upper hand and succeed in the end, it was credited that the Steady State Theory was correct when it came to the creation of the elements of our universe.

With that being said, in the situation of time in FF8, how about we look at it in similar terms. It's obvious that the Static Time Theory has an obvious upper hand against the Dynamic Time Theory. And yet both have a degree of credibility when it comes to certain aspects of the game. Perhaps, finding the connection with the two theories and conjoin the two would be the link that you guys need to determine the truth of FF8's description of time. Or maybe, you guys should adopt one theory and scraps the other, take what works in the scrapped theory, and attempt the find a suitable place within the adopted theory for the credible parts of the scrapped theory.

And here's what I think connects the two theories more than anything. The fact that the Universal Line of Time (ULOT) will continue as a straight line regardless of any influence besides Time Compression succeeding which in itself is and impossiblity. I think the ULOT is the key the both theories find common ground. And I think it's possible you guys can find a method that causes both theories, if not one more than that other, to work simultaneously.

[Sir Bahamut]

Well, okay, I should clarify a few things I guess.

The FAQ is perhaps not too explicit about this, but essentially static time and dynamic time are fundamentally opposing theories. "Static time" is the description we use for a model of time in which you can't change the past, while "dynamic time" is the description we use for a model of time in which you CAN change the past. In the FAQ we just call the "static time" theory described "Static Time" as if it were the only model of time in which the past can't be changed, and similarly we often talk about "Dynamic Time" as if there were one single model for time in which the past can be changed. That's not entirely true though.

Essentially, assuming that the past can't be changed, then your options become extremely constrained, and the Static Time theory described in the FAQ pops up as one of the most natural models. It is possible that there are other models of time which are such that you cannot change the past yet are not completely the same as our Static Time (I could go into more detail about this later maybe). For Dynamic Time, the only explicit model in the FAQ is Squall_Of_SeeD's, but with dynamic time there are very few constraints so there are without doubt many different kinds of dynamic time models.

Anyway, the point is that "static time" and "dynamic time" really refer to distinct classes of time-models, so to speak. The "static time" class consists of models where you can't change the past, while the opposite is true for the "dynamic time" class. Hence there is by definition no way that dynamic time and static time can be made compatible.

However, there are, as I think you were trying to say, different properties of both types of models which might be desirable to intertwine with eachother. Static Time only has one 'issue' with it really, and that is that it lacks the intuitive idea of a flow of time. In our model of Static Time the ULOT is entirely rigid, there's no flow of time whatsoever. In the Dynamic Time theory of Squall_Of_SeeD, and most dynamic time models, you do have the idea of flowing time, because dynamic time models tend to be based on the idea that the future doesn't exist yet, but is constantly being created 'as we speak', in some sense. The timeline really is thought of as forming like a stream of water forms a river.

I'm not entirely sure if that's a desirable property to have in any model, since as I explain in the FAQ, I think the idea of flowing time is absurd in the first place, despite how intuitive it is. However, I can see why one might want to include it in your model. So can this property be fitted into a static time model? Perhaps, in fact maybe even probably. It might be possible to have a well-defined model where the future doesn't exist beyond the 'present', yet you still can't change the past. Is that sorta what you had in mind?

I think another possibility is mentioned in the FAQ, which is how it is conceivable that a dynamic time model could end up turning into a static model. The idea is that in dynamic time, every iteration of the timeloop in the game would be slightly different, but might gradually converge to some fixed loop. Eventually it would appear as if the loop looked the same every time, i.e. it would appear as if no one were changing the past. Dynamic time would become (at least locally) static.


ANYWAY, I've gone on for quite a bit now and it's all been rather technical. Hopefully I mentioned some stuff which is interesting >_<

[TyphoonThaReapa]

Now, maybe you guys should think of the element of time in FF8 at not only a mortal point of view, but from a God point of view as well. And here's the kicker. This God, is the players themselves. To us, we know what going to happen before it happens because we've played the game more than twice. Yet, we the players do have the ability to effect events in the story. Just because we don't actually exist within the story, doesn't mean we don't have any influence.

Sure, somethings we can't and won't ever be able to change. But, with out players actually playing the game, the world that is FF8 wouldn't even exist. The reason time compression never work is not because time is not allowing it. It's because the players themselves are not allowing it. And to put a spin on things, do you believe that time compression would succeed if the player forces the main party to die doing a battle? Yet, the players also have the ability to press the reset button and try all over again.

Maybe this is an INSANE concept I'm talking about. But I here their a fine line between insanity and genius. Either way, it's still something very important we must take in account. What's the player's true role in the fabric of the FF8 universe?

[Sir Bahamut]

Haha, well it's true that if time compression succeeded then there'd be no game to play :p

However, I really don't think we should consider ourselves as having any role in the model.

[TyphoonThaReapa]

Why not? Challenge yourself for a second. Although time and history in the world of FF8 can't be change for the most part, it is undeniable that players have influence within the game itself. If it weren't the case, the game would be playing itself, we wouldn't be able to come up with all these different theories, and their wouldn't be any room to speculate about anything. And these are facts. So why shouldn't we consider the influence players have in the lives of the characters in FF8?

[Sir Bahamut]

The point is that all our discussions about the plot in the game are based on the idea that the universe we're talking about actually exists. Not just that, but we are imagining ourselves as being inside it. Of course it is actually a game, but there's no sense in mentioning that when explaining stuff.

I mean, Squall won't do anything unless we make him do it, but that doesn't mean we're going to try to explain his actions by appealing to the gamer!

[TyphoonThaReapa]

I see. Awkwardly enough I was thinking of it as an actual existing universe were we're the Gods controlling the every actions of Squall and Co in a fixed existence thus contributing to their inability to change their own fates. Wow, I think very strangely...:roll2

[Ryushikaze]

There are plenty of things the phrase 'might' mean, like I said, it seems to leave just enough space to allow you to wriggle out of blatant absurdities. But I haven't heard a interpretation which fits in with them being real women which sounds in any way satisfying.

As for which is the bigger leap, I genuinely do think they're both about even. We already know TC is capable of producing landscapes and images based on peoples thoughts and emotions, and so it's hardly a big leap to think that Ulty's will could push TC into spawning actual beings (especially given that Ulty could create GF's in a flash even without TC). And then just look at how we first encounter them: the first one appears as Edea in the Commencement Room, but when you enter the battle she's turned into someone looking entirely different, as if she morphed right there and then. Doesn't seem that real to me!

I had always seen that as a timeskip, myself.
I'm not saying it's impossible for them to be created from the aether, I'm just saying that them being the line of witches from 'the now' to Ultimecia's time, possessed, seemed more plausible than them just randomly being created by TC, or by an outside hand.

On the subject of dynamic vs static, I personally subscribe to an idea somewhere between the two, where time is neither wholly fixed nor wholly dynamic.

[Moon Rabbits]

Understood, thank you!

I do admit that VIII has a stronger force of supporting the Unjust Persecution theory more than the R=U theory. If I focus entirely on the UP theory, the reasoning behind Ultimecia's dialogues in the present era actually seem to make sense, which also fit her motives.

The reason why I value R=U as the most interesting theory is because it's just that intriguing in my opinion. A woman who you love dearly happens to be the exact same woman from the future and out of no where, she's travelled to your present era with the intention of ruling your own universe. So, the ultimate question is, are you willing to fight against the person who you love dearly?

Sure, the R=U theory is not plausible. But if I ignore common sense and logic, and focus on connections instead, there always will be something (such as certain visual images or little hints) within the game that make me think something along the lines of "Wait a second, R=U? Er, maybe, maybe not."

Anyway, well done, guys!

i've never lol'd so much in my life.

[Eaglegun]

I can't wait till I have time to read this. The old version was one of my favorite reads of all time.

[Mo-Nercy]

Sorry for not weighing into the discussion, but since the article is quite long, I haven't read it at all yet (I'm at uni today, so I'll get started during the lectures xD). But I just wanted to voice my appreciation. It's great to see that you guys are so devoted to this game.

Keep up the good work.