final fantasy 12....so dissappointing.... SO MUCH POTENTIAL!!!!

[reinward]

i just finished ff 12. the game was good but could have been soooooooo much better!

first off the pacing in this game is AWFUL! i swear there were parts in the game where i would be playing for HOURS at a time without a SINGLE CUTSCENE! i'm not asking for one every 5 minutes but it just felt like i was being 'rewarded" for playing. i want to EXPERIENCE the game!

It started off so promising..... until you get to ogir yensa sandea then the grind fest begins. go to place X. collect object Y. repeat.

this game was just missing soul for me. no real memorable boss battle moments (exception being Gabranth at the tower)

on the positive side the atmosphere was amazing. I really do adore Ivalice. i completely digged th ff9-esque atmosphere (9 is my favorite). the pirate port was my favorite city. I didnt really have an issue with the political plot but there was just not enough time put into it. really liked a lot of the characters. Larsa, Al-Cid, Balthier, Gabranth, Reddas. Basch, and Fran were all interesting but they lacked EMOTION. The voice acting was amazing i thought. i loved the accents of Reddas, Gabranth, Larsa and Fran.

seriously, the one at the tower at the end with Reddas, Gabranth, and the crew was awesome. It was like one of the first times that a character actually RAISED THEIR VOICE! i mean geez... i was so sick of their monotone voices Music completely fit the atmosphere there too.

I felt that the soundtrack was good for the most part but lacked any real memorable tracks (aside from the one mentioned above)


I really liked the battle system also im still not sure why someone would need a liscnse to wear a hat ????


I just think this game had soooooo much potential if not for the awful pacing, and LACK OF EMOTION!

it just seemed like nothing really HAPPENED during the game. just knda hanging aroud Rabinastre horsing around most of the time. i never got really got any sense of PROGRESS


honestly, i feel this COULD have been one of the best if not THE BEST final fantasies but as it stands its my 2nd least favorite (8 is the worst IMHO)

[ANGRYWOLF]

The main problem seems to have been Matsuno's alleged breakdown and departure from the game before it was finished and whoever took over didn't do a proper review and make some necessary changes.

Of course there are other forums where the TC would have had been literally killed for saying what he said.
I said all he said a few years back and was forced off a certain forum/game board for saying it.

I agree the game had a lot of potential but falls far short of the mark.

:mad2:

[Raistlin]

I agree that the story development and pacing was disappointing. The story, what little there was, was told exclusively through small cutscenes separated sometimes by many hours of gameplay. I found myself caring very little. That's not a very popular opinion in this forum, though.

However, I disagree that it's the second worst FF. The gameplay was engaging and made it enjoyable to play, so I'd still rank it above most FFs.

[Moon Rabbits]

FFXII has the best gameplay out of any of the others. Save for maybe X. Storywise, yeah maybe the pacing sucked, but it was an awesome story. Again, one of my favorites in the series. XII is definitely in the top three for me, if not #1.

You're taking the license system way too literally :Oo:

I agree on some level with what you say about the characters and story lacking "oomph," but I think that they're more ... uh realistic (lack of a better word) than previous sets of characters. The way they're acted and portrayed, I mean. I still don't think they lack heart or originality - Fran was a giant Icelandic bunny lady for god sakes! Balthier = badass sky pirate; Basch = badass disgraced military man; Ashe = badass scorned princess; Penelo = badass cute as a button girl; Vaan = not badass at all but still likeable street urchin. :bigsmile:

[Sephex]

My only real problem with the game is that the story was good, but it seemed so downplayed. It was refreshing to see a cast of characters that seemed to simply accept what the problem was and try their best to fix it rather than fretting about it. The battle system was fun and addicting, and I guess that's what kept me going.

[the AJman]

Disappointing? I thought this game was awesome.

I will admit that the pacing is a bit off, or I like to say different than most FFs. This game really emphasized gameplay and I'm glad for that. I like having to navigate those dungeons for an hour or two, it almost has that old school RPG feel to it when your wandering around those dark catacombs. It was also nice to see them really push for world exploration as well; I didn't get that feeling with X.

As for character development and emotion, its there it's just much more subtle. Most of the main cast have a personal journey that they eventually complete by the end of the game, they do change over time. However, I like I said its more subtle, so you don't see anyone just having a sudden epiphony (sp?); the growth is gradual. This game also lacks a lot of the emotion melodrama that was in the earlier games, which is fine for me. There are some scenes where the characters reveal their feelings and such, but it's fairly infrequent and again subtle.

Also I loved the plot to the game, I'm glad they did something a little different (though not totally original). Personally, I love fantasy stories about empires at war, and people fighting for freedom and all that stuff and to see this game do that was awesome. I know many of the other Final Fantasies had plots that are pretty close to this, XII really push the political and militaristic side.

Well thats my two cents anyways.

[Rodney]

Personally, the only gripe I have with the game is that the story was way too short. I liked the games with longer stories that gave you more time to get to know the characters and places a bit more and get more drawn into the story before all the plot twists and paths to the ending occurred. I liked the initial simple plots that eventually wound up segueing into more complex plots whose mysteries were solved as you made your way farther and farther through the game. With FF12, you didn't quite get that same satisfaction.

That said, compared to many other games, FF12 does rank in my personal top four at least for its gameplay.

[the AJman]

I personally don't think its too short, infact I personally believe its a little longer than most in the series. But your right this is definitately one of the more straight forward stories in the series. It's very much like a typical fantasy adventure movie, like Star Wars or The Lord of the Rings. XII has a very straight forward plot with a few twists and turns, but they are infrequent and far inbetween. Also some of the twists were pretty big, but they never derailed the main plot. This can be a good or a bad thing depending on what you like. This type of story telling is right up my alley, so I welcomed it with open arms and love it, but not everyone is going to feel the same.

[Flying Arrow]

I think XII is the best game titled among the main series in years. I'd go so far to even say that it's arguably the best game in the series hands-down.

Among other things, it provided a very interesting and refreshing take on the single-player JRPG. More than that, the game felt complete to me. Each of VIII, IX, and X left holes, be it in the pacing, the gameplay, the story (oh for the love of god the stories), but XII took everything about its concept and stretched it out to the max. I didn't feel short-changed or hand-held at all.

Although I will say that the plot could have been handled a bit better, that's really a minor, minor complaint for me. I'd gladly play another game like XII for 75-or-so hours.

[Wolf Kanno]

I love XII, and for awhile there, it really restored my faith in the FF franchise.

It was the first game since the SNES days to actually give me a cast of characters in which I actually liked everyone as opposed to one or two, it had a magnificent political story, while straight forward for a Matsuno title, still felt ever more deeper than any "Save the World from the Evil from Beyond" that clutters this genre. Its combat system was inventive and fun and finally gave the players true freedom (which ultimately led to many people discovering how little of an imagination they really have) and gave us a world that truly lived. Vayne is one of the most controversial and memorable antagonist in the FF series and the Judges established themselves a permanent fixture in the Ivalice world.

I honestly feel that XII has the most human story in the series, the party actually distrusts each other, the adult look at the kids as liabilities as opposed to equals, and everyone didn't become all super "buddy buddy". It was refreshing afters years of the formulaic FF titles. It was the first FF to really take the series into a mature direction and not actually shy completely away from the darker elements like in the past.

It is one of my top favorite entries in the series.

Granted the game isn't perfect, as others had pointed out the pacing is pretty bad at times and lord knows I have issues with the randomized chests and tedious grinding required to get Ultimate equipment. But most of it only slightly bother me cause the story was great and the atmosphere of the game was splendid.

Tp ANGRYWOLF: We're not completely pretentious assholes here though a few of us can be (like yours truly) but as long as your respectful (which you are imo) you can say whatever you feel like, we're not Nazis here; though if I get thirty "I hate FFXII" threads going in two weeks I might pipe up and say something... ;)

[Flying Arrow]

I love XII, and for awhile there, it really restored my faith in the FF franchise.


I have to echo this sentiment. I was all down on Square and Final Fantasy for a long time - there were five years in between the disappointing X and the magnificent XII! I was even reserved to the idea that Square just wouldn't make games that I enjoyed anymore. Luckily, XII ended up being a rose bouquet sent directly to me. Despite my initial disgust at FFXIII and everything it stands for, I'm holding out hope that the company will have again crafted a fine, polished game. XII was an utter surprise, so there's no reason why XIII won't be either. (Here's hoping.)

[ANGRYWOLF]

I have trouble comprehending why they like it. I find it perplexing.

But I don't criticize them personally for it.

I'm burned out on flamewars quite frankly and avoid them like the plague.:D

Thank you wolf kanno. As a new poster I don't know the personalities of the people here and would prefer to avoid making enemies needlessly...:D

I am curious as to why Flying arrow was initially disgusted with FFXIII, maybe he'll explain on a FXIII thread.
I do believe some of the FFXII fans though will have problems with FFXIII as I see it as the antithesis of FFXII.

[the AJman]

Don't worry ANGRYWOLF, so long as your respectful and not a complete ass (which you don't seem to be) you'll be just fine here and don't be afraid to voice your opinion; that is what the internet is for (other than porn, jk). I've been to other FF forum sites as well and some of them are ridiculously hostile. This place is much more mellow on average than most of the sites I've been too, though there are some heated debates.

As for XII fans having problems with XIII, personally I think XIII looks like its going to kick a lot of ass.

[Bolivar]

^ Yeah we get into heated debates sometimes but we actually manage to bring up some good points for discussion. Certainly not like most places out there.

Anyway, reinward, I think your take on FFXII has more to do with it being not like a Final Fantasy than it being a bad game. I know, because I felt the exact same way you did and made one among the first onslaught of threads like this here when the game came out. Compared to other FF's, it's pacing is terrible and its story falls flat. Whereas I expect Final Fantasy to keep me engaged in a cinematic experience, going all the way back to FFIV, from start to finish, I was in for a rude awakening with FFXII.

However, I've come to love it since its release and have beaten it 3 times with easily over 250 hours total. Probably my most played Final Fatnasy and that's saying something because its so recent. Despite its strangeness from the main series, I would definitely say it's one of the best games they've ever released.

The merits are strong - music, voice acting, combat, setting, exploration, it's all there, even, and especially, with the story. The characters each have an arch - they all start somewhere at the beginning and end dramatically changed, not just in their place in society but with their attitudes on life and the world. Ashe is one of my favorite FF characters of all time.

Anyway, keep your chin up, I think you'll learn to love this game. Don't worry about the story so much and spend some time exploring.

[Raistlin]

I honestly feel that XII has the most human story in the series, the party actually distrusts each other, the adult look at the kids as liabilities as opposed to equals, and everyone didn't become all super "buddy buddy". It was refreshing afters years of the formulaic FF titles. It was the first FF to really take the series into a mature direction and not actually shy completely away from the darker elements like in the past.

I agree with this, and I think FFXII's story is definitely a step in the right direction for much better games with mature, intricate political plots. However, the pacing and development of it was just terrible and lacked enough substance to keep me really caring about what was going on, which is why it gets knocked down a notch in my rankings.

[black orb]

>>> I liked FF12 because it pushed my poor old PS2 (RIP), to the limits..:luca:

[Wolf Kanno]

I have trouble comprehending why they like it. I find it perplexing.

But I don't criticize them personally for it.

I'm burned out on flamewars quite frankly and avoid them like the plague.:D

Thank you wolf kanno. As a new poster I don't know the personalities of the people here and would prefer to avoid making enemies needlessly...:D

I am curious as to why Flying arrow was initially disgusted with FFXIII, maybe he'll explain on a FXIII thread.
I do believe some of the FFXII fans though will have problems with FFXIII as I see it as the antithesis of FFXII.

You'll learn we're all assholes eventually but lovable all the same so no worries. :D

As for Flying Arrows sentiments, I kind of relate though for different reasons most likely. My main issue with XIII is that it feels for all intents and purposes as SE retracing their steps with FFX in a way which is my least favorite entry in the series. Especially now that the Experience/Customization system as well as the weapons systems have been announced. I foresee this game having the same terrible imbalance that plagued X. Not to mention the summons system has always come across to me as utterly ridiculous. The whole I'Cie concept sounded originally cool initially but the more I learn the less awesome the concept gets.

Its also wee too flashy for my taste, I usually equate wire-fu with cheese cause its terribly difficult to take it seriously and XIII seems chock full of trying to "wow me" with over the top action sequences that tells me the game may be lacking in the substance department and needs to cover it up (a la Advent Children), its just my usual first warning signs. Not to mention I've yet to play a game this director/designer has worked on that I like. Didn't like X, didn't like X-2 and I'm struggling to forget Revenant Wings. Not exactly a good track record.


]
I agree with this, and I think FFXII's story is definitely a step in the right direction for much better games with mature, intricate political plots. However, the pacing and development of it was just terrible and lacked enough substance to keep me really caring about what was going on, which is why it gets knocked down a notch in my rankings.

I can agree the pacing was off but I felt the gameplay was so good that it never really bothered me I spent three hours between cutscenes doing something fun, after replaying the Mt. Gagzet portion of FFX again and literally being stopped half a dozen times on the mountain for minor cutscenes that really added little to the plot other than to point out crap to the player that they already knew, I could say a few hours of my party not talking was a godsend.

I feel the game really would have benefited from a journal like the one in Tactics (another game that can be offset by large gaps of time due to the game side) to describe the characters and where you were in the story. I'm not sure I would agree on the development but then again this is all subjective really.

[Flying Arrow]

As for Flying Arrows sentiments, I kind of relate though for different reasons most likely. My main issue with XIII is that it feels for all intents and purposes as SE retracing their steps with FFX in a way which is my least favorite entry in the series. Especially now that the Experience/Customization system as well as the weapons systems have been announced. I foresee this game having the same terrible imbalance that plagued X. Not to mention the summons system has always come across to me as utterly ridiculous. The whole I'Cie concept sounded originally cool initially but the more I learn the less awesome the concept gets.

Its also wee too flashy for my taste, I usually equate wire-fu with cheese cause its terribly difficult to take it seriously and XIII seems chock full of trying to "wow me" with over the top action sequences that tells me the game may be lacking in the substance department and needs to cover it up (a la Advent Children), its just my usual first warning signs. Not to mention I've yet to play a game this director/designer has worked on that I like. Didn't like X, didn't like X-2 and I'm struggling to forget Revenant Wings. Not exactly a good track record.


These are actually the exact reasons why I was (and still kind of am) put off by XIII. I will say, however, that I am very out-of-the-loop when it comes to the hype and breaking info. From what I've seen, XIII looks like a game very similar to X (which is also my least favourite entry in the series). On the other hand, I am completely open to the idea that XIII will take the X formula and use it effectively.

I can see why a lot of fans are high on XIII, as it seems to tread through a little more familiar territory than XII did. Back in the day, I was the same way. However, years of playing video games and RPGs have caused me to generally prefer originality over familiarity. At the moment, I'm more interested in unique and creative ways that developers design a game's mechanics or present an experience to the player than genre standards. In the end, XIII's alleged tightness may be as big a strength to the final product as all the expansiveness was for XII. (The excessive flash will probably still bug me, though).


after replaying the Mt. Gagzet portion of FFX again and literally being stopped half a dozen times on the mountain for minor cutscenes that really added little to the plot other than to point out crap to the player that they already knew, I could say a few hours of my party not talking was a godsend.

The constant gameplay pauses are absolutely excruciating in X. I can't imagine anyone not losing their patience with it. It's funny, but lots of developers do this still in games, and I cannot for the life of me figure out why. I'm currently running through some PS2 classics that I haven't yet played before I graduate to the next generation, and Okami, an otherwise beautiful game, does the pausing thing a lot, too. It makes me want to scream.

[Imperfectionist]

I felt like the only redeeming quality of this game was the hunts, everything else was just quite dull and repetetive in my opinion

[Sephiroth]

I love Final Fantasy XII as it is, except the characters - they are cool but they are almost completely emotionless. And they have all just grey eyes, what is that? Vayne is very good and Penelo is one of the characters who shows more emotion than most of the characters but the way the heroes look like and their their expressions - well, there is not much expression.

[Vermachtnis]

This game's in my top five. My only real regret was waiting too long to play it. I liked how the story was told. I liked the long dungeons and field maps separating the cut scenes.



it just seemed like nothing really HAPPENED during the game. just knda hanging aroud Rabinastre horsing around most of the time. i never got really got any sense of PROGRESS


Actually a lot happened. Just think about the war and Vayne. I mean if they went after Vayne at any other point in the story the Empire would have came down hard and Dalmasca would have been wiped off the face of Ivalice. And not only that, the Occura would still be in control and the Nethicite could still be used as weapons.

And not only that, but near the end the lines of good and evil, for a lack of better word, were blurred. The three big-bads of the series were Vayne, Venat, and Cid. But Cid and Venat were just trying to free the humans from the Occura and Vayne just happened to be on the other side of the battle field. Really the only real "bad guys" were the Occura and you don't fight them ever.

[PeneloRatsbane]

I love Final Fantasy XII as it is, except the characters - they are cool but they are almost completely emotionless. And they have all just grey eyes, what is that? Vayne is very good and Penelo is one of the characters who shows more emotion than most of the characters but the way the heroes look like and their their expressions - well, there is not much expression.

Its understandable as to why Ashe is the way she is, everyone she loved was mudered.
Basch I think is kind of Chipper considering all that happened but he knows his place.
I'd say Fran and Balthier are boh pretty emotional, they just keep it private and don't go around shouting out about it, they both know that they have beef to deal with and eventually face up to it. Fran with her Village and Sisters and Balthier with his father. They also have that scene in the pharos which is emotional but not over the top.
Vaan and Penelo have there own stuff as well.
I think it is emotional but just in a nice understated way, unlike other games which are well ott

[Sephiroth]

Its understandable as to why Ashe is the way she is, everyone she loved was mudered.
Basch I think is kind of Chipper considering all that happened but he knows his place.
I'd say Fran and Balthier are boh pretty emotional, they just keep it private and don't go around shouting out about it, they both know that they have beef to deal with and eventually face up to it. Fran with her Village and Sisters and Balthier with his father. They also have that scene in the pharos which is emotional but not over the top.
Vaan and Penelo have there own stuff as well.
I think it is emotional but just in a nice understated way, unlike other games which are well ott

I respect what you say. However, when they do not see emotional enough to me their job to be emotional is not done successfully. I know the story and most of the characters do not often show emotions. You say maybe they keep it private but I can only see the part of their life Square-Enix shows us, lol. And of course I want to see very much emotions here. Compared to most Final Fantasys this Final Fantasy is emotionless. Final Fantasy XIII for example is an emotional firework.

[PeneloRatsbane]

yeah i get what you mean, I just found it refreshing that they were all a little more resevered.
I guess the problem is that I'm replaying X at the moment and Tidus has thrown a few temper tantrums and Then i think of Squall and how annoying he was to play as and it puts me of the ff emotion as there are times when its not handled right.
But it looks like XIII has struck a good balance, i hope so anyway because i am so looking forward to playing it, it looks amazing!!

[Rye]

This was my least favorite Final Fantasy. Ironic, since I thought it was going to be better than FFIX, which is my favorite. It has all the things that it should for the most part - a decent fighting system, beautiful graphics, and interesting story, so on and so forth. It just lacked this oomph, this soul to it, much like you said, reinward, and I couldn't stay engaged beyond 25 hours. I've never not finished a Final Fantasy. I try to make myself finish it, but it's hard. I'd rather put that time into finally finishing Final Fantasy X Monster Arena!

[Dr.M]

honestly everything about the game sucks for me. i havent finished it but its unlikely i ever will. it lacks everything for me that previous FF's have that make them enjoyable. the characters are annoying, the battle system is dull and the tasks are redundant. sure, i havent explored the game more than what ive seen and maybe i should give it another chance... in about ten years when ive forgotten how much it makes me fall asleep. sorry 12 lovers.

[YTDN]

I agree with this, and I think FFXII's story is definitely a step in the right direction for much better games with mature, intricate political plots. However, the pacing and development of it was just terrible and lacked enough substance to keep me really caring about what was going on, which is why it gets knocked down a notch in my rankings.

Weirdly, I found the political plot to be what let down the plot. Basically, everything that happened in the grand swing of things happened behind closed doors, with little input from the main party. The amount of times in the second half of the game where you finally get to your destination only to hear 'oh yeah, while you were trekking through the back end of nowhere, Vayne's just done something to make all your efforts absolutely pointless' just got annoying. It was like the 'heroes' weren't actually important until the very end of the game when you finally decide to just kill Vayne. Now, if the game had focused more on the interpersonal relationships of the party it wouldn't be so bad, but it doesn't, so that's a mark down.

I also found many of the villains under-utilized, to the point I got to the Bahamut and thought 'wait, why should I hate Vayne again?' I knew in theory that Vayne was a bad guy, but since you never actually speak to him in the entire game and he never directly does anything despicable, I find it difficult to see him as a villain. Many of the Judges weren't used very well at all- Drace gets a grand total of 10 minutes of screentime before getting offed, which was depressing since she could have played a Beatrix-type role very well, and Bergan, the only actually evil guy in the game, murders the pope and then you kill him.

This of course relates to the lack of emotional moments in the game. In pretty much every FF game, there are moments that make you cry, make you go 'awww' or make you sceam 'oh yeah!'. Aeris' death, Rinoa reuniting with Squall, the destruction of Cleyra, Lindblum and Alexandria, the Kilika sending- all moments that give great emotional reaction. FFXII was seriously lacking in this department- the only moments that tugged my heartstrings were those involving Balthier and Fran (Fran apologizing to Jote, Dr. Cid's death, Fran and Balthier's 'moment' right after...) and, strangely enough, the scene where Vaan leaps at Basch's cage and calls him out on killing his brother (a subplot that I thought was swept under the rug waaay too quickly- seriously, evil twin? And Vaan just believes him? Just like that?)

I also disliked the License board system, half for having to buy equipment and magic twice (would have been better if you just bought equipment at shops and magic on the License board), and the other half for making all the characters pretty much the same. Really, they all needed to have unique boards and unique weapons, but then again that's just a personal preference.

Finally, I'm going to agree with alot of other people here saying the conflict was too small-scale. Yes, saving Dalmasca seems fine and all, but since it's hard to see how life in Dalmasca is any worse under Archadian rule, and the fact that the war you were supposed to be saving it from never happens (you don't even get to go to Rozzaria), it leaves me with a kind of anticlimatic feeling. It felt like the early stages of VI or IX, but for the whole game. And the whole thing with the Occuria- totally underused. Gerun should have been the final boss, not Vayne.

:eek: Whoa, it's been a long time since I've posted here.