Why are villains much harder to defeat than heroes?

[SuperMillionaire]

Is it because they fight dirtier than heroes, or do they have better abilities?

[Wolf Kanno]

I would chalk this more up to the fact that you start off playing as most of the heroes and thus you know their move sets better. Once you start playing as the villains you will realize they not only much more difficult to use but easier to dispatch at times. Generally, the Heroes are far more user friendly than the villains but the villains have the more unique fighting structures.

Only Golbez and Jecht are unbalanced and overpowered and it looks to me like it has more to do with programming error or a terrible oversight on the Play testers part than intentional design.

[SuperMillionaire]

I thought the American localization team rebalanced the game to give all characters a fair chance at victory. Yes, some characters will be at higher tiers than others, but the battle system should give all characters a fair chance.

[Wolf Kanno]

They added moves to even the odds but it doesn't change the fact that some characters are more exploitative than others. It's basically impossible to block Golbez and he has a Brave combo that can be turned into an infinite loop if the player is good enough just like Squall, the difference is that Golbez's Brave attacks branch into HP attacks so he basically has a game breaker combo if you accidentally slip.

Jecht's Jecht Block is more user friendly than ExDeath's Omni-Block and can block almost anything... Including HP attacks. Combo that with his horribly fast combos he can tear you apart if you let him.

Now its still very plausible to beat them but very few characters are this blatantly broken and have this many abusive abilities. I like to think Dissidia comes from the school of Guilty Gear balancing which is basically to make every character as broken as possible until it somehow manages to balance itself out. Terra and Cloud for instance are nightmares to beat in their EX-Modes.

[Skyblade]

An added note about how broken Golbez is: Even if you break out of his Brave attack that combos to the Cosmic Ray HP attack, he can launch Cosmic Ray anyway. Even triggering EX mode will not prevent him from triggering his HP attack (though I believe it can interrupt Cosmic Ray if you wait until it is in progress). That is the only attack I've found (besides Garland's EX attacks) that can continue through an EX Mode initialization, and it is painfully overpowered.

[Setzer the Gambler]

I hate the Emperor's moves... Especially when I am playing as a hero, but I am sure if I played with his move on the dark side... Man, I would probably like it. D:

[SuperMillionaire]

They also changed the effects of certain moves; some were toned up, and others were toned down, and even changed when you learn these extra moves.

But perhaps it's not just the upgrades/downgrades the characters received; perhaps the villains also fight dirtier by using extra items or certain summons.

[Wolf Kanno]

Who are your mains?

[SuperMillionaire]

My main are all the heroes from II to X, but out of those, Cloud is my central.

And another thing I noticed is that the villains tend to dodge and block more.

[Wolf Kanno]

Some of the villains actually are built around using blocking and dodging. Besides obvious people like ExDeath, both Sephiroth and Jecht actually have block incorporated into their actual move set (Sephy even has a HP attack that begins as a block and then moves into the attack, much like WoL) while Kuja and Ultimecia's whole fighting strategies are about using their Auto-glide to easily dodge and counterattack opponent. The villains actually use a much more diverse and creative fighting styles compared to the heroes. Its one of the reasons why they are more challenging to use cause many of them are radically different from the heroes.

[SuperMillionaire]

So that means that while heroes just tend to attack straightforward, villains tend to use more advanced tactics...

[FFIX Choco Boy]

Using Terra, I don't have trouble with any villains except Ultimecia. The guys who really hurt is when I come up against Onion Knight, Squall, Tidus, WoL, Zidane, y'know the ones that dodge their way in and then hit you really hard, then combo with an HP attack. Doesn't help that melee are pain trains if they touch you and all the ranged characters are only about half as strong, I say the ranged should be stronger because they are easy to dodge.

[SuperMillionaire]

Yes, they dodge to make you miss and then punish you for it.

[Wolf Kanno]

So that means that while heroes just tend to attack straightforward, villains tend to use more advanced tactics...

That's kinda it in essence. The heroes have their own advance fighting styles but I think (for me at least) you learn how to utilize said moves more when you start using the villains. Squall for instance is a character whom Block is imperative. Also the villains teach you more about exploiting range better.


Using Terra, I don't have trouble with any villains except Ultimecia. The guys who really hurt is when I come up against Onion Knight, Squall, Tidus, WoL, Zidane, y'know the ones that dodge their way in and then hit you really hard, then combo with an HP attack. Doesn't help that melee are pain trains if they touch you and all the ranged characters are only about half as strong, I say the ranged should be stronger because they are easy to dodge.

This is why Terra has unfair HP attacks, Tornado is her "ultimate defense" move even able to reflect back her reflected spells if timed right and the computer backs away from it as hard as it can. Flood is tricky to dodge and an Uncharged Meltdown is wickedly fast and easily takes out dodging scrubs like Zidane and Tidus. Not to mention when its fully charged it will either start ricocheting around the arena or actually home in on the opponent. Holy is also difficult to dodge if you attack them from directly above with it...

[SuperMillionaire]

So that means that while heroes just tend to attack straightforward, villains tend to use more advanced tactics...

That's kinda it in essence. The heroes have their own advance fighting styles but I think (for me at least) you learn how to utilize said moves more when you start using the villains. Squall for instance is a character whom Block is imperative. Also the villains teach you more about exploiting range better.


Using Terra, I don't have trouble with any villains except Ultimecia. The guys who really hurt is when I come up against Onion Knight, Squall, Tidus, WoL, Zidane, y'know the ones that dodge their way in and then hit you really hard, then combo with an HP attack. Doesn't help that melee are pain trains if they touch you and all the ranged characters are only about half as strong, I say the ranged should be stronger because they are easy to dodge.

This is why Terra has unfair HP attacks, Tornado is her "ultimate defense" move even able to reflect back her reflected spells if timed right and the computer backs away from it as hard as it can. Flood is tricky to dodge and an Uncharged Meltdown is wickedly fast and easily takes out dodging scrubs like Zidane and Tidus. Not to mention when its fully charged it will either start ricocheting around the arena or actually home in on the opponent. Holy is also difficult to dodge if you attack them from directly above with it...

Terra's attacks can penetrate Jecht's Block (if it hits from directly above or below), and she can also easily punish him if he misses a blow on her, and the same goes for Tidus. However, many other characters can evade her attacks and then punish her with a counterattack.

It also seems as though villains are harder to punish when they miss an attack on you, but they are quick to punish you if you miss an attack on them, and can also score a critical hit on you during their counterattack.

[Mercen-X]

Took me stupid forever to figure how to critical against Bartz's insane Bravery. Initialize EX and connect with that BRV ATK.
God.

Also, I managed to get Ultimecia, but I forget how.

IMO Squall's ridiculous bastard as a lvl25 manikin.

[SuperMillionaire]

Are you referring to a brave-to-HP attack leading to an EX burst?

[Mercen-X]

Who are you talking to? If it's me, I was referring to Squall's story in which manikin Bartz has 1 hp and 3000 bp and he uses his crazy ass whirlwind attack that can kill you in one shot. So, in order to critical hit him in 10 seconds, you have to have your EX gauge built up before you battle him. Initialize to break his attack then counter with a brave attack. I haven't tried a HP attack for two reasons: 1) I worry that killing him won't count as a critical hit and 2) I have the chance to run around and rebuild my EX gauge.

[Roogle]

I thought the American localization team rebalanced the game to give all characters a fair chance at victory. Yes, some characters will be at higher tiers than others, but the battle system should give all characters a fair chance.

I play parts of the Street Fighter series and I can tell you that it is nearly impossible to have a perfectly balanced game. There will always be tiers in any fighting game because some characters are simply better than others for various reasons.

I am not sure what changed from the Japanese version of the game to the North American version of the game, but, minus any glitches and bugs, I'm sure they tried to adjust all characters properly. Some get left behind.

If you mean from a storyline perspective, I would say the villains need to be stronger than the individual heroes because they often have to fight the heroes in a party. You rarely fight a villain and his party alone at the same time!

[SuperMillionaire]

I thought the American localization team rebalanced the game to give all characters a fair chance at victory. Yes, some characters will be at higher tiers than others, but the battle system should give all characters a fair chance.

I play parts of the Street Fighter series and I can tell you that it is nearly impossible to have a perfectly balanced game. There will always be tiers in any fighting game because some characters are simply better than others for various reasons.

I am not sure what changed from the Japanese version of the game to the North American version of the game, but, minus any glitches and bugs, I'm sure they tried to adjust all characters properly. Some get left behind.

If you mean from a storyline perspective, I would say the villains need to be stronger than the individual heroes because they often have to fight the heroes in a party. You rarely fight a villain and his party alone at the same time!

I know that for a fact, because I also play Street Fighter, and there are certain bosses that are very hard to defeat, but they're not as user-friendly when you play as them; typically, Akuma, Ryu, and Ken are at the top tier, but out of those three, Ryu is the most user-friendly.

Going back to Dissidia, the game developers made Cloud the most user-friendly character in the cast (specifically keeping "pick-up-and-play" game players in mind), and his storyline the easiest to play as, with a difficulty rating of only one star.

[Roogle]

I know that for a fact, because I also play Street Fighter, and there are certain bosses that are very hard to defeat, but they're not as user-friendly when you play as them; typically, Akuma, Ryu, and Ken are at the top tier, but out of those three, Ryu is the most user-friendly.

The tiers in Street Fighter are based off of tournament results from people playing each other competitively.

Are you taking that into consideration when you say that the villains are more powerful than the heroes? I think some of the villains are actually pretty low tier on the Dissidia side of things.

[SuperMillionaire]

I guess that the Dissidia heroes are more user friendly and are easier to defeat when controlled by the CPU, but have less-powerful attacks. Villains are the opposite.

[Mercen-X]

Cecil is currently my highest level character and I tend to abuse him in Quick Battles and Arcade.

[Wolf Kanno]

I guess that the Dissidia heroes are more user friendly and are easier to defeat when controlled by the CPU, but have less-powerful attacks. Villains are the opposite.

There is also the fact the computer cheats sometimes, usually with equipment by allowing low level opponents suddenly have access to mid or upper level gear and this can greatly affect the battle sometimes. I find it amusing that whenever I unlock and acquire one of the rare super items, suddenly every computer opponent seems to have it. I unlocked the Ultima Weapon and now it seems like every high level opponent uses it, that or the Blade of the Damned weapon. Same goes with accessories. Smurfing Sturm and Drang...

[SuperMillionaire]

Come to think of it, yes, that too, but probably moreso the villains, because they fight dirtier.

[Roogle]

If there is an algorithm that determines the equipment setup that the computer controlled characters use, then I doubt that it differentiates between the heroes and the villains. Games rarely make that type of distinction. It would have been a cool idea if it was implemented that way, though, that Kefka or Exdeath would be more likely to have access to equipment that they normally wouldn't have at their level rather than the heroes who try to stick to their own level.

[SuperMillionaire]

But that would still give CPU-controlled villains greater power than CPU-controlled heroes...

[qwertysaur]

villains have more unique fight styles that take time to get used to. Kefka has his random chaotic attacks that do things like change direction or chase you, Exdeath with his block based offense, the Emperor with his traps etc.

[SuperMillionaire]

Yes, apparently villains are more "experimental" than heroes are, who like to keep things simple.

[Mercen-X]

Cecil is currently my highest level character and I tend to abuse him in Quick Battles and Arcade.

Close seconds are Tidus and Cloud.

[qwertysaur]

For leveling get the black chocobo playplan and all the Exp booster upgrades, then play on your special day. I got Kuja, Shantotto and Kefka to level 100 in reletivly short time from around level 20 with each :p Also you should get the AP booster upgrades as well for mastering more abilities while you grind.

[Wolf Kanno]

If there is an algorithm that determines the equipment setup that the computer controlled characters use, then I doubt that it differentiates between the heroes and the villains. Games rarely make that type of distinction. It would have been a cool idea if it was implemented that way, though, that Kefka or Exdeath would be more likely to have access to equipment that they normally wouldn't have at their level rather than the heroes who try to stick to their own level.

One quick glance at the Quick Battles shows you how the A.I. sets up characters They get a special A.I. script (Aggressive, defensive, Tactician), Levels, and Equipment levels. Other factors like the stage and whether the Chaos/Cosmos rules are in effect also help to change the enemy A.I.

SuperMillionaire: In truth, once you start playing the higher tier airship survival battles (Big Whale/Blackjack) you'll notice the playing field between heroes and villains becomes very even and after that point its up to how good you are. Jecht and Golbez give me the most problems of the Villains but Cloud, Tidus, and WoL give me the most problems with Heroes at this point as well. Who I am playing as will also change these factors. So in reality, though the villains are designed differently from the Heroes, it all evens out by the end.

[SuperMillionaire]

Okay, but I haven't even gotten up to that point yet. I generally spend all my playtime in Arcade mode. I have mastered normal mode, and now am just trying out hard mode, and the only two characters I have beaten hard mode with so far are Squall and Cloud. Unlike all the other modes, everything is fixed (except for which costume you want your character to wear).

[Wolf Kanno]

To be fair, I don't really touch Arcade mode cause my love for Dissidia comes from the deep customization systems. The real problem here is that your characters don't get access to all the equipment and abilities that make handling certain characters much easier.

Throwing into Normal mode real quick with Terra, I see they don't have her equipped with her more broken abilities and she's basically using her starting abilities... So yeah, the real problem here is that Arcade removes the customization system which greatly balances the game.

[SuperMillionaire]

Yes, that's right; all characters are stripped down to the basics to rebalance the playing field, and the only thing you can customize is whether your character will wear his or her normal costume or alternate costume (in particular, I tend to use Cloud in his alternate costume). You also cannot level-up in arcade mode; everyone is fixed at level 10 in easy, 50 in medium, and 100 in Time Attack. Time attack is a bit more complex than easy and medium modes, because all characters have a specific setup, which determines how the character will act in battle, and they also have a predetermined summonstone (there are no summons allowed in easy and medium modes). Further, in Time Attack mode, you are offered a choice on which set of opponents you want to face off against at the beginning of the round, whereas in the easy and medium modes, you won't know who your opponent is until right before the match, and they are determined randomly.