Wada Discusses the future

[Depression Moon]

President and CEO of Square Enix Yoichi Wada was recently interviewed by Edge to talk about the future of the company.
One question asks about the set in stone certain style of Japanese development, which some might say has reached its peak with Final Fantasy XIII, and how he thinks these kinds of big-budget, long-in-development Japanese games stand up in the current climate.

“I believe Final Fantasy XIII is going be something special, and that it’s going to be well received by the audience. But whether we are going to continue to internally create this type of game remains to be seen, because I actually feel that the team that was involved with Final Fantasy XIII should next move on to create and generate some ‘next generation’ forms of play.
Internally and externally I feel there’s an expectation of Square Enix to offer something new, and I really think that the Final Fantasy team could create something completely different, but at the moment they’re strictly catering to the particular audience they have now.”

Click the link below to read the rest of the Edge interview with Yoichi Wada.
An Audience With: Yoichi Wada | Edge Online (http://www.next-gen.biz/magazine/an-audience-with-yoichi-wada?page=0%2C0)


Edit: Oops i made a mistake and put this in the general FF thread, maybe it should be in the general SE thread?

[Bastian]

I HATE it when these head honchos say they want to do something "completely new" with a franchise I love.

Seemingly unlike EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD, I LIKE games to stay the same. That's why I hate FFVII, VIII, X, XI, XII and probably XIII so much: because they strayed too far from the formulas I loved. Hell, I think VI strayed a little too far for my tastes.

Yes, I know most people out there disagree. Most people are GLAD they tried something "completely new" with VII (since, revoltingly, it's everyone's fav FF). And so I'm sure that what ever S-E comes up with that is "completely new" will be what the next gen will come to love but will annoy people like me to death.

On the same topic, Miyamoto (the Zelda analog) insists that Twilight Princess was the "last Zelda game of that kind" and that the new Wii Zelda will be something "very different" . . . I'm sure such a statement is constructed to excite people, but it just depresses me, because I love my Zelda they way it was. I loved my FF the way it was (1-5) and I'm not keen on any "complete changes".

[Bolivar]

I HATE it when these head honchos say they want to do something "completely new" with a franchise I love.

Seemingly unlike EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD, I LIKE games to stay the same. That's why I hate FFVII, VIII, X, XI, XII and probably XIII so much: because they strayed too far from the formulas I loved. Hell, I think VI strayed a little too far for my tastes.

Yes, I know most people out there disagree. Most people are GLAD they tried something "completely new" with VII (since, revoltingly, it's everyone's fav FF). And so I'm sure that what ever S-E comes up with that is "completely new" will be what the next gen will come to love but will annoy people like me to death.

On the same topic, Miyamoto (the Zelda analog) insists that Twilight Princess was the "last Zelda game of that kind" and that the new Wii Zelda will be something "very different" . . . I'm sure such a statement is constructed to excite people, but it just depresses me, because I love my Zelda they way it was. I loved my FF the way it was (1-5) and I'm not keen on any "complete changes".

Just curious, how many FF's did you play before VI? Did you really feel strongly about the formula after 2 games? Did you even think FFI was that good?

I was really surprised at what he said. He basically acknowledged that they've been catering to the same fanbase ever since FFVII, when FF used to be a series where they tried out new things.

Their biggest concern should be that they haven't made up to date games in many years now. I think the only current generation game they developed internally was The Last Remnant. Well, they have an engine now, all they need to do is start making some games. With the PS3 now in its 4th year and the XBox 360 in its 5th, they sure are late to the party, though. I remember when FFXIII looked amazing and was supposed to be the "first game to demonstrate the power of the PS3". Now, after Killzone and Uncharted 2 that statement is a joke. FFXIII looks like any other PS3/360 game after those 2. Now God of War III and Gran Turismo 5 make it look even worse. I'm not saying FFXIII will be underwhelming, but it looks like it should have been released 2 or 3 years ago.

[Slothy]

I HATE it when these head honchos say they want to do something "completely new" with a franchise I love.

That's not necessarily what he said at all. He simply said that he thinks the team involved could do something completely different, not that if they did it would necessarily be an FF title.

As for not liking change, I never understand that. I don't get how anyone can only like to play the same damn game a hundred times over with a different name and graphics each time.

[Mirage]

If you like the games the way they were before, why don't you just play the games that came out before?

I love it when things change. I want all the games I play to have gameplay that has progressed in one way or another :p. Maybe I'm strange, but I think the gameplay is the most important part in a game.

[Wolf Kanno]

What bothers me most about the interview is simply that it confirms the suspicions I've had about Wada being a strict bottom line business man with no real understanding of what creativity can do for a company. Creativity to him sounds like it = success/money as opposed to something that can be used as a stepping stone for future titles to make quality titles down the road.

I feel what really made the SNES/PS1 generation standout for Square was that they created multiple experimental titles that they used to build features into their flagship titles, nowadays they basically hide this experimentation behind the FF moniker cause they need the games to sell and in order to hold up to the bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: "cinematic experience" that so many people foolishly decided is the definition of FF, they spend more time making the game look pretty and have awe inspiring cutscenes than pay attention to the core gameplay designs. DoC is a poor man's Devil May Cry with cutscenes that undermine the gameplay and a ridiculous fanboy plot but we can at least all agree its a pretty game. :roll2

While I appreciate SE trying new things, I still feel there is a major disparity in the quality of the titles they produce. I still feel that franchising the FF Titles was probably a major mistake as I feel its made SE come across as lazy as they are using the reputation of their flagship series to pull them through instead of consistently creating quality games which is the true reputation of the series they trounce upon. Why is FF a beloved series? Its not because its just a cinematic experience or because of innovation, they were all that and made with utmost quality. This third feature is what I feel is lacking in a good chunk of SE's games nowadays.

XIII, beyond its graphics and new combat system is mostly using the X model which to me was a gameplay model that should never be used cause it lacks creativity and is terribly limiting and was only justified cause it was an early PS2 game and Square's second title for the system. Having a next gen retrace back to an inferior model (despite being in development hell for close to a decade) to me is hardly progress and kinda tells me that the current FF teams priorities are not where they should be.

[Bastian]

I HATE it when these head honchos say they want to do something "completely new" with a franchise I love.


Just curious, how many FF's did you play before VI? Did you really feel strongly about the formula after 2 games? Did you even think FFI was that good?
I played I, IV and then VI. And then I played VII and stopped because I hated it. Then I played V and III and II and loved those so much more.
Yeah, I like even I MUCH better than VII. VII was just too much of a change for me in basically every way possible. I REALLY prefer the medieval settings in 1-5 (and 9). That's why VII and VIII and such are such turn offs to me.




As for not liking change, I never understand that. I don't get how anyone can only like to play the same damn game a hundred times over with a different name and graphics each time.
Because it's not the same game. There's a different plot, different characters, different overworld, different dungeons. That's enough difference to keep me happy. Hell, FFIV:TAY even had mostly the exact same overworld/dungeons/characters and I STILL love it. Much more than VII and later games.


If you like the games the way they were before, why don't you just play the games that came out before?
Because I already have. :P Well, FF-wise. That's why I'm just now getting int DQ. They are at least more similar to old FF than new FF is to old FF.


I love it when things change. I want all the games I play to have gameplay that has progressed in one way or another :p. Maybe I'm strange, but I think the gameplay is the most important part in a game.
You're not strange, you just have different priorities from me. The most important things to me are story and aesthetic. I have a very specific aesthetic I like (high fantasy) and as long as the story is halfway decent, I'll play it.

[Slothy]

As for not liking change, I never understand that. I don't get how anyone can only like to play the same damn game a hundred times over with a different name and graphics each time.
Because it's not the same game. There's a different plot, different characters, different overworld, different dungeons. That's enough difference to keep me happy. Hell, FFIV:TAY even had mostly the exact same overworld/dungeons/characters and I STILL love it. Much more than VII and later games.

In the strictest sense, changing plot, characters, overworld, dungeons, etc. but leaving the gameplay untouched would mean it literally is the exact same game just with a different setting.

Regardless of what you may think, I would bet money that you'd get sick of nothing but derivative titles after a while.

[Bastian]

How much do you wanna bet? :P Because I seriously get annoyed when major changes to gameplay are introduced-

Er . . . wait. No, I love the "Bands" thing FFIV:TAY added . . . but I bet I would have liked the game just as much without it. FF 1-5 had pretty much identical gameplay. IV is where they introduced strange new ideas (button combos for Sabin? Ugh.)

[Slothy]

Er . . . wait. No, I love the "Bands" thing FFIV:TAY added . . . but I bet I would have liked the game just as much without it. FF 1-5 had pretty much identical gameplay. IV is where they introduced strange new ideas (button combos for Sabin? Ugh.)

Actually, the only gameplay similarities I-V had were that they were turnbased, featured job systems, and had similar abilities such as magic. How they handled their respective job systems, character development, the usefulness of the different abilities, and the strategy that went into playing each game was drastically different. Far from identical gameplay.

[VeloZer0]

He is referring to game world style. Which, although my preferences don't align with Bastian's, is something I certainly understand. I'm decidedly not a fan of whatever style that I see FFVIII/FFX/FFXIII being done in. (Don't have an art background so I can't really put a name to it :))

[Slothy]

He is referring to game world style. Which, although my preferences don't align with Bastian's, is something I certainly understand. I'm decidedly not a fan of whatever style that I see FFVIII/FFX/FFXIII being done in. (Don't have an art background so I can't really put a name to it :))

He outright said 1-5 had identical gameplay, not world style. Since he's made the distinction between the two in previous posts I think he would have said he was referring to the world style in the last post I quoted if he were actually referring to it.

[Wolf Kanno]

Some people just like old school. DQ is a testament to the tried and true path. Though I don't share the same feelings as Bastion does, I can sympathize as I've seen some great world design/battle systems get ruined by the need for "innovation". Yet for me, though I do love the old school styles best represented by the DQ series, though it may keep me entertained it can't absorb my full attention like a new battle system will. Though to be fair to FF, VI-VIII + XII are all basically different interpretations of V's Job class system while FFIX and X are basically warped versions of IV with some elements of V thrown in for good measure.

Even XIII's system basically sounds like Xenogears battle system utilizing a very streamlined version of XII: International Zodiac Job system seeing as how the A.I. sets are actually based around FF job systems. Honestly, SE is basically been trying to remake the wheel for the last 16 years.

[Bastian]

Actually, the only gameplay similarities I-V had were that they were turnbased, featured job systems, and had similar abilities such as magic. How they handled their respective job systems, character development, the usefulness of the different abilities, and the strategy that went into playing each game was drastically different. Far from identical gameplay.
Hm. I think we're using "gameplay" differently or looking at it in two different ways. What I'm saying is that I liked the 4-5 character parties where you select Attack/White/Black etc for each person, and that the spells are fairly similar (at least same names) and such. The fine details can change a bit here and there and that doesn't bug me.

Yeah, I guess 1-5 don't have "identical" gameplay. But I certainly wouldn't call it "drastically different." I don't remember which FF it is, but I would say the one where you have larger parties and don't individually control what each person does is when it "drastically changed."

[VeloZer0]

Well, 3 has become the quasi-standard since FFVII, so I don't know where you are going with the larger party sizes being a change. It has actually gotten smaller. As for individually controlling characters, the only game that gave you the option to not individually control them was XII, a long way from V.

[Depression Moon]

Well, of course, I loved games and I played them a lot, so I decided to join a game company, Square. However, back then I was really an uneducated consumer – I was a big fan of Final Fantasy but I hadn’t realised it was made by Square!


Here's one reason why I don't think he's fit as the president over there.
How the heck can you be a big fan of a frachised game and not realize the first thing that pops up when you put the cartridge in?
Also from his dialogue it seemed being the head of Square was one of his last resorts. I just personally think to be in a position that high you have to had been inspired to do so for a while.

[Bastian]

I thought I read about some FF that had parties of more than five where you didn't actually control what the individuals did but set up strategies so that if someone died they would swap out with one of the other ten or whatever. Or some such weirdness.

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that once things started to change aesthetically with VII and then gameplay wise thereafter, I had zero interest in any post-VI games (except IX, of course).

That's why I was super stoked to see Final Fantasy Gaiden . . . but then super irked to see it get no US release. It looked like a new FF game in the style that I loved.

[Slothy]

I thought I read about some FF that had parties of more than five where you didn't actually control what the individuals did but set up strategies so that if someone died they would swap out with one of the other ten or whatever. Or some such weirdness.

Nope. Such an FF title apparently only exists in your imagination.


Also from his dialogue it seemed being the head of Square was one of his last resorts. I just personally think to be in a position that high you have to had been inspired to do so for a while.

I didn't get the sense that Square was a last resort for him at all. I got the sense that early in his career he was simply someone who had an idea of where he wanted to get to in his career but didn't really have a sense of the how, or what industry would appeal to him. And the idea that you need to want to be in game development for a long time before you can be there. Many people stumble into things they're great at as much by accident as by design. Note that I'm not saying that's necessarily the case here, but saying you have to want it for quite a while is a load of hooey.

[Rad Bromance]

I'm all about new. Seriously, I love all the old FFs but XII was a freaking breath of fresh air.

Can someone explain to me what an "up to date" game is though? I hear this a lot now about both gameplay and graphics...like, if it isn't an FPS that looks like Crysis and plays like Halo now it's somehow "behind the times".

[Bolivar]

XIII, beyond its graphics and new combat system is mostly using the X model which to me was a gameplay model that should never be used cause it lacks creativity and is terribly limiting and was only justified cause it was an early PS2 game and Square's second title for the system. Having a next gen retrace back to an inferior model (despite being in development hell for close to a decade) to me is hardly progress and kinda tells me that the current FF teams priorities are not where they should be.

I kind of got that from the interview, actually. He essentially admitted that the XIII team is catering to a fanbase, and all but came out and said they are not innovating at all, and hopes that they can do so with a new IP possibly. Except for your "quality over (or is it alongside?) innovation" argument, it seems like you and Wada are on the same page. Weird.

Lastly (and this isn't a reply to you WK) is anyone else completely unimpressed with FFXIII's graphics? In some of the trailers where the characters are on huge green open fields with the really big creatures, I said to myself "this looks exactly like the Calm Lands (FFX)..."

I might be tempted to say FFX was just an advanced game graphically, but Killzone 1 and MGS3 were (and are) great looking games, but their PS3-successors make the term "leaps and bounds" seem like an understatement.

[Wolf Kanno]

Wada does want innovation but he's looking towards the West for it cause despite his strong statements concerning "Japan is over" his solution seems to more about outsourcing to more creative people instead of really working on the mindset of the people at SE. There is a sharp contrast between what he says and what he's actually doing. He says now that he feels they reached a dead end in their thinking and that XIII is looking to be catering to old fans but if he really strongly believed that innovation was needed that much for XIII he would have had the team working on the title to incorporate his new views. I still suspect his recent comment is more of him talking his way out of the few criticisms XIII has received in the press.

In regards to SE's outsourcing, I mean Tri-Ace has been the company that has been developing most of SE's big console titles for the new generation system and from all sources I've checked, they are still an independent company. The remakes of III and IV were done by Matrix and several of their more interesting games in the last few years have been co-developed between other studios and them. While I am perfectly fine with bringing in new blood, it just doesn't seem like SE releases anything in-house anymore. I mean Level 5 is being outsourced to develop the DQ games which you would think a major IP like that would usually stay in-house. It just seems a bit weird to me.

My problem with Wada is that I don't really see much innovation in the titles under his watch. There have been a few good titles and there have definetly been a few attempts that failed. Still, it just doesn't seem like SE has really been putting out much in the last few years, at least nothing that comes off immediately noteworthy. I also return to my main statement that for Wada, innovation means success and money not actually trying something new. He has never crossed me as someone who is willing to stand by the products his company makes. He's basically catering to the masses and covering his own ass.

Looking at XIII, I feel all that's really been altered is the actual combat system (the skill/equipment system sounds like its just streamlined version of previous systems, specifically X) while everything else in the title feels like its made in 2002. X-2 comes across as a much more daring and innovative game (and most people on the forum know how I feel about FFX and its sequel). XIII is being developed for a fanbase that existed almost ten years ago and probably won't appreciate it as much now sadly. Yes, I will agree that graphically it has never impressed me too much. At its worst it looks like X at its best it looks like XII but my overall impression is that it looks like a PS2 game that just happens to support high quality televisions.

[Slothy]

Looking at XIII, I feel all that's really been altered is the actual combat system (the skill/equipment system sounds like its just streamlined version of previous systems, specifically X) while everything else in the title feels like its made in 2002. X-2 comes across as a much more daring and innovative game (and most people on the forum know how I feel about FFX and its sequel).

I don't think that's really giving enough credit here to be honest. Based on everything I've read of FFXIII lately, I have to say that the changes made for the sake of making the story more fast paced, while only being little things here and there, will be huge in terms of how the game feels. I also believe they'll be quite divisive among fans. Many will like the changes, but many won't. As linear as earlier titles actually were, they hid it well, and losing the ability to explore in favour of what sounds like it will be HL2: The RPG in terms of pacing will turn a lot of people off.

They're certainly catering to their fanbase in the sense that many of the staples of FF are in there (job classes, turn based battles, cut scenes, etc.) but the changes they have made are a huge risk on their part.

[champagne supernova]

I think we can only comment on XIII when we've played and finished it.

I'm not sure if Wada was in charge when X was being created, but it is quite a change from the FF formula. The world map, a staple for 9 FFs disappeared. ATB also disappeared (I think that was introduced in 2 or 3), and the summon system was quite different from the previous games. They moved from pre-rendered backgrounds to a fully rendered game. They might be minor, but these changes add up, and create an unique experience.

And X-2 was very, very, very, very different to any other FF before. The combat system was awesome (X or X-2 are my favourite), it had an interesting take on the Job system from V, and it removed linear world progression to create an open-ended mission based system. Yes, there were some premises of the game that were stupid, especially in the story and the outfits, but it was something new.

And XII changed the franchise again, becoming the most Western FF ever. Some people (and I'd probably group myself in here) found that it strayed a little bit too far, but that's innovation.

So I think the last 3 Final Fantasies I have played have showed innovation. However, I do agree that Squenix definitely have not produced any other titles outside of their main franchises that are particularly ground-breaking in the current generation of consoles. There are no Vagrant Stories or Xenogears or Chronos anymore, and their other games seem to be just FF-lite. Which is disappointing.

[Wolf Kanno]

I don't think that's really giving enough credit here to be honest. Based on everything I've read of FFXIII lately, I have to say that the changes made for the sake of making the story more fast paced, while only being little things here and there, will be huge in terms of how the game feels. I also believe they'll be quite divisive among fans. Many will like the changes, but many won't. As linear as earlier titles actually were, they hid it well, and losing the ability to explore in favour of what sounds like it will be HL2: The RPG in terms of pacing will turn a lot of people off.

They're certainly catering to their fanbase in the sense that many of the staples of FF are in there (job classes, turn based battles, cut scenes, etc.) but the changes they have made are a huge risk on their part.

I don't really agree, the pacing looks almost exactly like X's with linear "one road" dungeon design with one large open area that opens up fairly late in the game. This is FFX all over cause it also featured a "one road" dungeon design and X never really encouraged you to back track until the end of the game when you reached Zanarkand and got the airship. X kept jumping you from one plot point to another and despite most of these one road level design they are usually filled to the brim with cutscenes. If the XIII demo was any indication or even what early reviews have said, XIII literally follows the same game design structure as FFX. This comes across a bit weird considering XIII has been in development much longer than even FFXII. Combat is about the only gameplay mechanic that really sounds like its radically different but the level design and pacing are definetly X's.


I think we can only comment on XIII when we've played and finished it.

I'm not sure if Wada was in charge when X was being created, but it is quite a change from the FF formula. The world map, a staple for 9 FFs disappeared. ATB also disappeared (I think that was introduced in 2 or 3), and the summon system was quite different from the previous games. They moved from pre-rendered backgrounds to a fully rendered game. They might be minor, but these changes add up, and create an unique experience.

And X-2 was very, very, very, very different to any other FF before. The combat system was awesome (X or X-2 are my favourite), it had an interesting take on the Job system from V, and it removed linear world progression to create an open-ended mission based system. Yes, there were some premises of the game that were stupid, especially in the story and the outfits, but it was something new.

And XII changed the franchise again, becoming the most Western FF ever. Some people (and I'd probably group myself in here) found that it strayed a little bit too far, but that's innovation.

So I think the last 3 Final Fantasies I have played have showed innovation. However, I do agree that Squenix definitely have not produced any other titles outside of their main franchises that are particularly ground-breaking in the current generation of consoles. There are no Vagrant Stories or Xenogears or Chronos anymore, and their other games seem to be just FF-lite. Which is disappointing.

Doing a bit of background check, Wada was President of Square before the merger but for how long I don't really know, though from this source it seems like he didn't actually start participating in gaming development for the company until FFX as that appears to be his earliest credit (http://squarehaven.com/people/Yoichi-Wada/). Even then it was more of a corporate role than actual creative role. Hell just looking at his few gaming credits I can't say he's been part of the best that SE has had to offer in the last decade. Mostly ports or sequels that even fans dislike (Unlimited Saga anyone?).

My feeling in regard to X is moot, though I dislike the game I won't argue it was very different from previous installments but XIII looks like a cut and paste job of X's design in a lot of places without much evidence to suggest they really are trying something new with it, though we won't know til we play the game. XIII may be different than we expect but its difficult not to notice or point out its glaring similarities to the teams last major FF project which was X.

Though the last three major FF titles have been radically different they were all released after large gaps of time and many fans refuse to even recognize some of the entries. The amusing thing is how much the PS3 era appears to be a repeat of the PS2 era with XIII suspiciously looking and sounding like a a variation of X's design and now XIV is also an MMO entry which still has shocked fans despite us already doing this dance last generation. If Wada allows a Western company to make FFXV we might have a repeat of the last generation entirely. ;)

The only thing Wada has really brought forth to SE in the last generation can be pretty much best described in his own words:


We manufacture content. We wrack our brains for what might sell and what might not, but it's very difficult to hit the jackpot, as it were. Once we've hit it, we have to get all the juice possible out of it. The obvious example is Final Fantasy. If we just sell each one, we end up with only 12 commodities.We have to think what we can do to make more profit out of the series. -Yoichi Wada Interview from GI gamesindustry.biz interview (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/square-dance)Wada's plan has been mostly getting new recruits to work on ports and also to milk past installments for easy money. XIII itself is being marketed to appeal to a wider audience even. Don't like FFXIII, well why don't you play Agito or Versus instead and they can be your FFXIII. Well make different types of games slap the same number on them and "bam!" everyone is happy. At least that's how the whole XIII project feels sometimes.

With the exception of FFXII for me, the last decade has been a haze for me from SE as its mostly involved ports (Do you realize that FFI has been released six times in the last decade and I am being generous by counting all the cell phone ports as one), remakes, or special guests stars of past FF titles with the occasional crappy sequel. They've spent the last decade hiding behind the past. When they finally do take risks, the shirk away from them when they don't turn out so well.

[Slothy]

I don't really agree, the pacing looks almost exactly like X's with linear "one road" dungeon design with one large open area that opens up fairly late in the game. This is FFX all over cause it also featured a "one road" dungeon design and X never really encouraged you to back track until the end of the game when you reached Zanarkand and got the airship. X kept jumping you from one plot point to another and despite most of these one road level design they are usually filled to the brim with cutscenes. If the XIII demo was any indication or even what early reviews have said, XIII literally follows the same game design structure as FFX. This comes across a bit weird considering XIII has been in development much longer than even FFXII. Combat is about the only gameplay mechanic that really sounds like its radically different but the level design and pacing are definetly X's.

I fail to see how you could say the pacing is the same as X when:
A) Neither of us has played the game, and
B) All indications I'm seeing are that it does away with everything that could possibly hold up the story progression for the first 20-30 hours (including shorter cut scenes than most FF fans were probably expecting).

What I'm reading about seems to imply a game that will move along a lot faster than X ever did (if I had one complaint about X`s pacing it`s it's that it was slow as hell even when it was moving at a fast pace). Just because two games are fairly linear doesn`t mean that they`re pacing will be identical, or even remotely similar. But we`ll see when the game comes out.

The point I was originally getting at anyway which you totally missed (because I admittedly didn`t explain it well enough) is that taking out all towns and most NPC`s in favour of a game that moves along much faster is a pretty big risk on their part because a great many RPG purists will vilify the move even if it does make for a better paced story. But again, we`ll see how it all shakes out in the end. For my money, if the story actually manages to not only be interesting, but move along at a faster pace than previous entries because of the game design choices made, I might very well like this entry.

[ANGRYWOLF]

I'm all about new. Seriously, I love all the old FFs but XII was a freaking breath of fresh air.

Can someone explain to me what an "up to date" game is though? I hear this a lot now about both gameplay and graphics...like, if it isn't an FPS that looks like Crysis and plays like Halo now it's somehow "behind the times".

I disliked intensely the "fresh air' claim.
Nothing personal against you friend.

I 've thought about making a thread about what SHOULD be in an FF game.
For me I liked the towns and villages and npcs talking to you and finding out little nuggets of info from them.

Up to date to me has a lot to do with technical graphics abilities, reaching the zenith of what is possible technologically with the system.

[Wolf Kanno]

I fail to see how you could say the pacing is the same as X when:
A) Neither of us has played the game, and
B) All indications I'm seeing are that it does away with everything that could possibly hold up the story progression for the first 20-30 hours (including shorter cut scenes than most FF fans were probably expecting).

What I'm reading about seems to imply a game that will move along a lot faster than X ever did (if I had one complaint about X`s pacing it`s it's that it was slow as hell even when it was moving at a fast pace). Just because two games are fairly linear doesn`t mean that they`re pacing will be identical, or even remotely similar. But we`ll see when the game comes out.

When I think pacing I'm talking about the whole package and considering the game part of the title is pretty straightforward, I highly doubt I'll be dawdling around like I usually do to explore or chat. My playthroughs of X despite being long winded in parts are fairly quick so I would say X is kinda fast paced even if the story isn't. Course I should have made my point much clearer. X is fast paced to me cause there is nothing on the gameplay side to keep me interested for long so I basically stick with on rails storyline and basically this is what I'm getting at is that XIII is pretty much doing the same except its at least being a bit up front about it.


The point I was originally getting at anyway which you totally missed (because I admittedly didn`t explain it well enough) is that taking out all towns and most NPC`s in favour of a game that moves along much faster is a pretty big risk on their part because a great many RPG purists will vilify the move even if it does make for a better paced story. But again, we`ll see how it all shakes out in the end. For my money, if the story actually manages to not only be interesting, but move along at a faster pace than previous entries because of the game design choices made, I might very well like this entry.Once again, I'm not terribly blown away by this as I feel VIII and X have already done this. Beyond the initial story purposes of bringing you to a town neither game ever offered reasons to ever use towns. Even the shops are so poorly utilized that I cannot imagine anyone using them beyond the first town cause you easily and abundantly acquire everything you ever need on the field and one of my major complaints with both titles is how poorly the gameplay elements work together and eventually become very one-sided. As far as I'm concerned, VIII and X really don't have "towns" in a traditional RPG sense. Hell Xenosaga II for the most part beat XIII to this so I can't fathom how this is really a "new" risk.

As for the pacing of the story, it will all really depend on how good the plot and cast are. Personally, I feel that its a no-no to sacrifice gameplay elements purely for a story in a video game. By that, I mean to streamline the gameplay to point of being irrelevant to the plot as its implemented in a way to say it was mostly an after-thought. At best XIII will be a cinematic experience like Xenosaga Episode I , at worst it will be a tedious interactive movie like FFX. We'll know later down the road.

[ANGRYWOLF]

development in FFXII for gameplay.
That's a much bigger mistake in my view than the reverse.:roll2
I didn't feel FFX was a tedious interactive movie but the previous poster is entitled to his/her opinion.
I thought FFXII was very tedious.

I don't think that FFXIII will meet all our expectations.

It will be good in some ways and fail in others. A mixed bag.

:)

[Wolf Kanno]

To be fair, I'm not completely against the idea of linear gameplay design and having story be a major focus but I feel when you go too far with one way or the other I feel the game becomes terribly unbalanced. What I really seek is something more like the old days where both story and gameplay played their part equally as opposed to one being more important to the other. Obviously I don't feel XIII looks to be fulfilling those needs but its too early to tell I guess. To me it looks and sounds from reviews to be an interactive movie.

The PS2 generation of RPGs has kinda shown me that a great story does not make a great game. Xenosaga II was a title that had a terribly linear design, terrible combat, and had a ratio of 5 to 1 of story versus gameplay and it was probably one of the bigger disappointments for me last gen. Obviously FFX lands in here as well for me but I've been beating that horse a lot as of late (though god knows it deserves it ;) ) but what I find is that when story overtakes gameplay by a massive amount like my two examples, I honestly wonder why I should bother playing it? I could easily get the same experience from both titles by watching the cutscenes on Youtube rather than force myself to play through the short but awful gameplay parts. That is really how I feel these games are designed. If these are games, we might as well count Advent Children as a game cause its where the series seems to be heading sometimes cause the gameplay side is being reduced more and more.

Granted I understand the reverse is true as well. I never cared for sandbox titles or open ended worlds with a loose plot cause I quickly lose interest due to lack of incentive. I sometimes get so lost in the freedom of the title I feel it would be better to just write or create my own story rather than play in another person's world that lacks narrative and focus.

Lately, I've been replaying FFIX and I feel this game stills hold the ideal (for me at least) way of designing a game, its got its faults but I've never been bored and I find the gameplay to be just as fun and engaging as the story and characters, its not one sided. I generally play games for the whole package and while I truly enjoy my RP, I'm also a big fan of the game part and I feel gameplay in RPGs are a little more than just a combat system, random encounters, and boss battles. I also have side quests, mini-games, and exploration that have been slowly being removed from SE titles of late.

Its hard to give a damn about a world when its all relegated to the story (just as the reverse is true about all gameplay and no plot). At that point the game only has the chance to appeal to its audience from the perspective of a film, with visuals and dialogue but games have the ability to transcend this cause they bring in an interactive element and I feel when all I'm doing is transporting my characters from plot point A to Plot point B and its literally a straight line to that point, I feel the developers and designers have failed from a design perspective and in an immersion. Story segments might as well end with four choices popping up:

Save
Shop
Battle random enemies
Next Cutscene

Cause at least we can really streamline this and not even have to waste our time with dungeons if thought isn't even going to be put into it. :roll2

[VeloZer0]

Story segments might as well end with four choices popping up:

Save
Shop
Battle random enemies
Next Cutscene

Cause at least we can really streamline this and not even have to waste our time with dungeons if thought isn't even going to be put into it. :roll2

Though you meant it to be satirical that reminds me a lot of FFT, which worked out rather well plot and game play wise.

[champagne supernova]

I think VIII had quite a few reasons to go into towns. The first is Triple Triad, which was always quite fun. Then there were numerous side-quests and little Easter Eggs hidden away. Then there is Winhill and Shumi Village which both have 2 side-quests each (if I recall properly), all of which were quite fun, as well as (especially in Shumi Village) fleshing out a lot of the characters (such as Laguna) and the Shumi people as a whole. So, don't really get your point for VIII.

X I understand a little bit more, although speaking to the people in towns and finding out how they've been affected by Sin again fleshes out some of the story. And I enjoyed playing Blitzball (I am a FIFA nuthead, so that could explain it) and needed to find players. And if you wanted other things to do, you could customise your weapons and armour and do other cool things too (sorry, I played X a long long long long time ago).

Whereas in XII, the only thing you really do, outside the main story, is hunt marks and fish. I know some people might dislike Blitzball and Triple Triad, but fishing is very lame. And hunting marks becomes very routine (and considering the optional bosses in VIII and X, not too unique to XII). Yes, the NPCs did adjust what they talked about, but really, it was nothing really special.

And the combat system in XII was relatively weak compared to X and X-2. Yes, it made for a more free-flowing game, but seriously, there was generally less thought and therefore less entertainment. There are 2 reasons why I explored XII: it is very pretty (but so is X) and I am very curious.

And as for linear games with cut-scenes, here are 3 words and a number to illustrate how good it can be: Metal Gear Solid 4

[Wolf Kanno]

Story segments might as well end with four choices popping up:

Save
Shop
Battle random enemies
Next Cutscene

Cause at least we can really streamline this and not even have to waste our time with dungeons if thought isn't even going to be put into it. :roll2

Though you meant it to be satirical that reminds me a lot of FFT, which worked out rather well plot and game play wise.

That's true, but SRPGs by tradition rarely use dungeons and the few series I can think of that tried were not exactly great titles to begin with (stares at Arc The Lad series). Also, combat is still randomized in FFT so its more like FFX. In XIII you can choose (assuming these roads are large enough to evade them or else this will have Xenosaga II's problem) to engage enemies since you can see them on the map. :p


I think VIII had quite a few reasons to go into towns. The first is Triple Triad, which was always quite fun. Then there were numerous side-quests and little Easter Eggs hidden away. Then there is Winhill and Shumi Village which both have 2 side-quests each (if I recall properly), all of which were quite fun, as well as (especially in Shumi Village) fleshing out a lot of the characters (such as Laguna) and the Shumi people as a whole. So, don't really get your point for VIII.

You actually learn more about Laguna reading his Timber Maniacs articles than actually visiting some of the places he's been (like the Shumi Viallage) also the items won from doing the Chocobo quest in Winhill and the Elder's fetch quests in Shumi Village are hardly worth the trouble. Hell, even the Chocobo Forest quest is not worth it unless you're trying to complete getting all the TT Cards. This is kinda the problem with most of the optional content in VIII, its not really immediately useful. Getting the Rare Materia in the Chocobo Breeding quest or getting access to high level gear for underleveled characters early in IX through the Chocobo Hot and Cold have immediate gratification that not only helps completionist but also scrubs who don't know better.

VIII's system is so abusive getting said items is really just to say you did than actually being practical. I don't think I even knew about a few of them until several playthroughs later and in the end all it really does is allow me to divert my attention when I get to the boring parts of the story. As for Triple Triad, you can get most of the cards just playing the students in Balamb, you only miss out on the rare cards and considering refining them is only useful if you don't know what you are doing then I once again must disagree with Triple Triad being useful beyond the initial common cards.

Granted, I do enjoy collecting all the cards, I'm just saying the lack of adequate shops makes going into towns a chore since you are only there to talk to one person so you can win the card you need. Outside of Deiling and Balamb, most towns really don't change their dialogue too much from the first time you're there.


X I understand a little bit more, although speaking to the people in towns and finding out how they've been affected by Sin again fleshes out some of the story. And I enjoyed playing Blitzball (I am a FIFA nuthead, so that could explain it) and needed to find players. And if you wanted other things to do, you could customise your weapons and armour and do other cool things too (sorry, I played X a long long long long time ago).

Blitball gets boring once you assemble a good team since a high level Tidus = Instant win for your guys except against the cheating Al Bhed (how are they so good when they live in a smurfing desert?!)

The customizing of weapons and armor is actually a feature you get early in the game and doesn't require shops, so basically early on in the title the game makes all shops later on a moot gesture. Throw in the fact your party can one shot 90% of the normal monsters in the game without exploiting any weaknesses then even customizing becomes a moot gesture until you tackle the monster arena at the end of the game. I have a play through where I made lots of useful armor and weapons and then I have a game where my party members mostly used what they started with and I don't feel the difficulty of the game actually changed between the two.

The weapon system is an intriguing idea but its completely wasted by the games total lack of challenge. Most of X's big customization systems only become in-depth when you reach the end of the game to deal with the Monster Arena and once again I digress that this mostly exists to keep the player occupied as opposed to being useful to the overall game. The Gameplay is decidedly divorced from the story and main game seeing as how most of the features don't become practical until after you are strong enough to finish the game anyway.


Whereas in XII, the only thing you really do, outside the main story, is hunt marks and fish. I know some people might dislike Blitzball and Triple Triad, but fishing is very lame. And hunting marks becomes very routine (and considering the optional bosses in VIII and X, not too unique to XII). Yes, the NPCs did adjust what they talked about, but really, it was nothing really special.

You forget that you are also exploring the world with some of the Mark Hunts since they exist in regions you normally wouldn't or couldn't reach until then. Several of them are also puzzles (Like Ultros only appearing if you have an all-female team), there are also several minor story quests like the Sisters on the Airship, the Viera looking for her soulmate, the moogle workers you run into, Jovy's quest to become a hero like Reks, and even the rare monster hunters. Not to mention several of the Mark Hunts actually tie up loose ends in the plot and I can say the Mark Hunts are a tad bit more involved with the overall game and story than most.

The Mark Hunts themselves offered a greater level of challenge than anything your party would be facing and handsomely rewarded you. Of course, like Chocobo Hot and Cold, its only usefulness was only good if you did them as early as possibly (usually shortly after they became available) but they also had the satisfaction of teaching you how to utilize the battle system better. Granted, I don't particulary care for Mr. "Waste My Time" Yiazmat but I'm not actually saying XII is perfect or its the ideal way to make a title. Like my above statements, I'm looking for something a little more mid-FF (SNES-PS1) life cycle that balanced both styles.



And the combat system in XII was relatively weak compared to X and X-2. Yes, it made for a more free-flowing game, but seriously, there was generally less thought and therefore less entertainment. There are 2 reasons why I explored XII: it is very pretty (but so is X) and I am very curious.

I'll simply agree to disagree here as even I know this is a subjective issue cause personally I strongly disliked X's system and I never understood why people felt X-2's was so great, whereas I loved XII's. That's a debate for another day cause I seriously don't want to simply make this a X vs. XII debate or even a debate on whether X was good or not. I only brought up X cause its system is the closest to XIII within the series but in reality, XIII seems to actually be closer to Xenosaga Episode II's game design more than anything.


And as for linear games with cut-scenes, here are 3 words and a number to illustrate how good it can be: Metal Gear Solid 4

Everyone seems to be missing my point here. I'm not completely against linear design as much as I'm against lazy linear design which is what I'm actually accusing X, XIII, and Xeno II of. Many of the old FF dungeons are fairly linear but they actually twist and turn so they don't feel linear, the dungoen design I'm calling out is when everything is a simple road. There is nothing "simple" about MGS4's level design and to be honest, if it is merely a straight path you know damn well that is the hardest part because of the nature of the game. RPGs don't offer that different style of gameplay, their only benefit from making asinine game design is to get you to the next story point faster and my question with this mentality is that if the story is so important that we have to dumb down the gameplay for it then why bother telling your story as a game? Why make the player suffer with bad design decisions if your story could just as easily be told as a movie or mini-series?

This has been my point, I'm not against linear game design just bad ones like X and Xeno II where everything is just a simple road to your next destination and there is no point to ever deviate cause there is nothing else to see or experience. Everything I've read about XIII's design gives me the impression the design team wanted to make a movie, not to create an immersive experience that combines gameplay with strong story telling. Cinematic movies were great for storytelling about two console generations ago, SE needs to learn how to combine this like other successful companies, what makes MGS4 more of a cinematic experience is that you actually get to control Snake during some of the most heart-wrenching developments and that's what makes those scenes the type of things that stay with you long after you finish playing. Despite my dislike of the game, Crisis Core's ending is far more poignant because the player actually gets to play Zack's losing battle... This is how you build immersion by combining gameplay with story telling instead of divorcing the two completely like in DoC.

[Bolivar]

I mean Level 5 is being outsourced to develop the DQ games which you would think a major IP like that would usually stay in-house. It just seems a bit weird to me.

Actually DQ games have always been outsourced (I think) even before the merger. Basically Horii writes the story, Toriyama does the art, Sugiyama writes the music, and it all gets programmed from there, with of course things like level design and such having their gaps filled in by whoever plays the role of director at level-5 or arte piazza.

But you're right, it is a little weird.

[Wolf Kanno]

Yeah, I just noticed that the other day, apparently Enix never had any in-house programmers.

[champagne supernova]

There is nothing "simple" about MGS4's level design and to be honest, if it is merely a straight path you know damn well that is the hardest part because of the nature of the game.


...what makes MGS4 more of a cinematic experience is that you actually get to control Snake during some of the most heart-wrenching developments and that's what makes those scenes the type of things that stay with you long after you finish playing.

??? I clearly played another version of MGS. Apart from 2 scenes right at the end, I don't recall me doing anything with Snake during the heart-wrenching developments, besides pushing X to get flashbacks. And MGS level design may not be perfectly linear, but you do basically go - creep through area, have cut-scene, creep through another area, have cut-scene, fight big bad boss, etc etc (I honestly think that the 5th Act has about 1 parts of actual gameplay to 5 parts of cut-scenes). I have nothing against MGS for doing this; I think it is an awesome game and some of the gameplay elements are very cool, but it doesn't exactly re-invent the wheel.

X's combat system is regarded highly because it allowed you to plan ahead, making it more tactical and calculated than previous FFs. That's why I liked it.

I think that if XIII has streamlined the game, that is quite a good idea, because I hate level-grinding with a passion (although I'm sure you can still do it if you want to). But I cannot comment on something I haven't tried, so I'll wait to play it before I pass any judgement (good or bad on it).

I also don't understand how not being forced to go into towns to buy items and equipment is a bad thing. You shouldn't be forced to slog through loading screens and long walks to get something. If you want to go into towns in a game, it should be for random NPC conversations which fill out the game and silly side-quests. VIII had numerous - just think about Fisherman's Horizon and the cafeteria lady's son. Or the fisherman. I think X had its share of cool stuff too, but I've played VIII and X-2 and XII and most of VI and half of IV since, so my memory is a bit unclear.

So, my point is that, from what I can see, the quality of FFs has been up to scratch since Wada has taken over. There has definitely been innovation in story-telling techniques, gameplay mechanics and graphical design, and XIII looks like it will continue the trend.

And, to be honest, FFVII wasn't a huge break from previous FFs. The main area of improvement was in the graphics allowed from the PS, allowing for a more personal story to be told. But the ATB system was almost identical from VI (the actual battle system and not the mechanics behind it). The materia system was probably a backward step. Weapons and armour were fairly standard. Game progression fairly linear. Apart from the side-games, which were quite fun and entertaining, the real innovation of VII (outside of graphics) was the presentation of an epic story.

The area I think that Square-Enix is failing is their IPs outside of their main series. But, perhaps what Wada is now trying to do is to create these different types of IPs under the FF umbrella - if Versus is anything to go by. In which case, a rose by any other name smells as sweet, and you can't really complain seeing how Ivalice has come under the Final Fantasy name in 2 pure iterations and 2 somewhat watered-down (Tactics Advance - bleh).

[Flying Arrow]

So, my point is that, from what I can see, the quality of FFs has been up to scratch since Wada has taken over. There has definitely been innovation in story-telling techniques, gameplay mechanics and graphical design, and XIII looks like it will continue the trend.

And, to be honest, FFVII wasn't a huge break from previous FFs. The main area of improvement was in the graphics allowed from the PS, allowing for a more personal story to be told. But the ATB system was almost identical from VI (the actual battle system and not the mechanics behind it). The materia system was probably a backward step. Weapons and armour were fairly standard. Game progression fairly linear. Apart from the side-games, which were quite fun and entertaining, the real innovation of VII (outside of graphics) was the presentation of an epic story.



I'm not here to gang up on anyone or argue about "streamlining" or design choices; I just want to chime in on a point I feel needs to be raised when talking about the differences of cinematic presentation throughout the FF series.

The key idea is presentation - it's the centerpiece of every single game ever, all the way back to Pong. Gamer perspective is possibly the most important factor in determining the player's experience. I believe that the innovation of VII (and VIII and IX) is that, while no less "linear" than X (or I-VI), it remains interesting from screen to screen. Each camera angle is painstakingly picked and offers a completely different point-A-to-point-B experience. Whether it be a winding path or a small puzzle, the carefully-directed explorable artwork of VII-IX is what carries those games as cinematic experiences and is exactly what makes them unique and interesting as "cinematic" games (whether or not the player enjoys it is a different story, however).

X, XII, and now XIII, on the other hand, places the gamer in completely different shoes. Occasionally X busted out the PS1-era explorable artwork (don't ask me for examples, because I can't remember specifics) but for the most part it was a behind-the-back experience like a lot of current 3D games. With this player perspective, everything is seen, and surroundings exist as more of a gameplay environment than carefully directed scenes (or screens). The main problem that some seem to have with X is that for everything that can be seen in these environments, not much can be done. Of course, it's not like the explorable artwork of VII-IX were huge interactive playgrounds either, but the cinematic intrigue seems to be missing from the newer entries.

What I feel separates the PS1-era and the PS2/3 era FFs is how Square has defined "cinematic" for each. Cinematic for the PS1 involved explorable artwork and careful screen direction, whereas as the PS2/3 games are "cinematic" because of the frequent story-based cutscenes, which are usually presented completely differently than the gamer-controlled bits (not so in the PS1 games). Enjoyment of either is all based on taste, of course, but I just wanted to perhaps raise a point about what makes each generation of Final Fantasy tick.

(NOTE: XII is also a completely different experience than X and seemingly XIII, but mostly because of level-design choices rather than cinematic, I feel. Enjoyment of either style, again, comes down to taste).

[black orb]

>>> Atleast FF still has a future..:luca:

I just hope they stop making too many FF online games..

[Wolf Kanno]

??? I clearly played another version of MGS. Apart from 2 scenes right at the end, I don't recall me doing anything with Snake during the heart-wrenching developments, besides pushing X to get flashbacks. And MGS level design may not be perfectly linear, but you do basically go - creep through area, have cut-scene, creep through another area, have cut-scene, fight big bad boss, etc etc (I honestly think that the 5th Act has about 1 parts of actual gameplay to 5 parts of cut-scenes). I have nothing against MGS for doing this; I think it is an awesome game and some of the gameplay elements are very cool, but it doesn't exactly re-invent the wheel.

While 4 is hardly my favorite entry I feel you've missed my point. In MGS4 you are at least doing something that actually resembles challenge and fun between the long winded cutscenes and despite your objective being quite simple, there are multiple ways to get where you need to, the fact is you still have multiple choices as a player to make with reaching said linear destination. Its linear level design meets non-linear gameplay; RPGs don't really have this luxury.

The best way for MGS4 to be translated to FFX or Xeno 2 would be to put Snake out in the open in a very linear hallway large enough for two people to stand side by side. If it was based on how they did X, the guard would be asleep in the middle of the hallway with his back turned to you and Snake would start with a Sniper Rifle. While there does still exist a bit of choice its hard to ignore the obvious one...

If it was Xeno 2, that guard would be a Gecko and you would have the rocket launcher... sure you can win but its not going to be pretty cause the Gecko can kill you faster than you.

The point here should be that the level design is a simple hallway that confines the player and keeps them simply on one path. Where MGS4 is different from FFX and Xeno II is that the areas Snake sneaks in are decently sized and offer multiple ways to reach the said destination, you only have one destination but the the player gets to choose how to reach it.

As for interactive cutscenecs, I'm thinking a great deal of the chase sequences that normally would have been relegated to a cutscene, or the times the game splits the screen frame to show mulitple characters plowing through the story (while you at least control Snake). I'm talking about RAY Vs REX which no one I've talked to expected to be a playable part of the game. The problem with cutscenes is that all the really cool stuff happens in them while the player is trapped with the boring stuff... DoC is a prime example, you spend what feels like ages wittling down the health of a boss while jumping and gliding and finally after a serious war of attrition, you get to watch Vincent in a cutscene magically take down the boss like it was nothing. How is that rewarding?


X's combat system is regarded highly because it allowed you to plan ahead, making it more tactical and calculated than previous FFs. That's why I liked it.

I am not even going to touch this one... Must... control... inner... Troll...Blarrgh!@%$! :D


I think that if XIII has streamlined the game, that is quite a good idea, because I hate level-grinding with a passion (although I'm sure you can still do it if you want to). But I cannot comment on something I haven't tried, so I'll wait to play it before I pass any judgement (good or bad on it).

Well actually... one review said its kinda impossible to grind cause the game forces "level caps" on you so you will reach points where battles do nothing for you cause you can't learn more skills. This is suppose to keep battles difficult which I much appreciate.

Honestly, I'm not even asking for level grinding and nor do I feel that solely makes up gameplay, gameplay in an RPG is actually a little more than just random encounters with an occasional boss fight. I expect mini-games, small quests (with actual worthwhile rewards), or as you point out later in your post, stumbling upon extra story bits, as well as my personal favorite thing: exploration. There are a variety of things you can do with gameplay in RPGs that goes beyond the battle system. What I am personally advocating here is better dungeon variety. I don't mind it being linear as long as you utilize the effects that Flying Arrow pointed out and create the illusion on non-linearity, maybe give me a few long linear branches towards some worthwhile treasure. What I'm arguing against is stuff like this (http://www.analoghype.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/56088__468x_final-fantasy-xiii-extreme-linearity.jpg). Which is pretty much the norm for XIII's level design. The party might as well be riding theme park vehicle seeing how much rails are going on in a genre about exploring and seeing new worlds as different people. :roll2



I also don't understand how not being forced to go into towns to buy items and equipment is a bad thing. You shouldn't be forced to slog through loading screens and long walks to get something. If you want to go into towns in a game, it should be for random NPC conversations which fill out the game and silly side-quests. VIII had numerous - just think about Fisherman's Horizon and the cafeteria lady's son. Or the fisherman. I think X had its share of cool stuff too, but I've played VIII and X-2 and XII and most of VI and half of IV since, so my memory is a bit unclear.

I use looking for shops as a means to actually explore the towns and see people. I'm actually doing both, meeting people and talking to them while also stocking up and gaining a small reward for making it to this point of the game. I'm a whore for customization and equipment is one of my favorite means of doing so as it usually offers the most balance since it has set guidelines. Personally I don't see how streamlining this makes it an improvement. How is removing a proper shop or town structure going to make it a better game? All you are really doing is limiting the players choices and transforming them from a proactive element in the story to a simple observer. I can't see how this is "fun". Shops can also offer possibilities for quest or help add focus to a town from a story perspective. Proper towns to me add to the world and its character, I can't even imagine them being considered tedious.

I agree you should want to talk to NPCs but SE has never proven to me they have ever gotten the hang of it, even XII, which I love has its moments where chatting up NPCs is exhausting and not worth your time. Course I'm bias cause Persona 3/4 did this perfectly but no chance in hell XIII will follow that formula. The other problem here is that from what I've heard, side-quests open up mid to late game and the pacing of the story rarely gives you the chance to "stop and smell the roses" let alone chat up the few NPCs you will see in the game.

The other problem here in concerns of the purpose of NPCs in an RPG, is that your only real incentive to talk to these people is to either gain some story insight (rare nowadays) or stumble upon a quest to help you which once again slogs you back to gameplay (which I don't oppose) rarely are NPCs ever written to be interesting or be fleshed out. The problem with many RPGs is that there is rarely any real reason to ever talk to NPCs after the first meeting.Throw in the fact that a lot of the quests from what I'm heard are given to you through terminals or magic/tencho artifacts than I would say XIII's NPCs are mostly a moot gesture.

Looking at the nature of XIII's story I can jokeningly assume you will only receive four types of conversations when you actually talk to them:

Cocoon Citizen A: The Holy Government is good, the Fa'Cie are bad! The Holy Government protects us from the Fa'Cie so they are good.

Cocoon Citizen B: The Holy Government is up to no good but I won't say anything cause I don't want to be exiled.

Pulse Citizen 1: OMG!!!! THIS PLACE IS A MAD HOUSE!!! THE HOLY GOVERNMENT SUCKS CAUSE THEY WRONGFULLY ACCUSED ME AND EXILED ME!!!! I'M INNOCENT!!!!

Pulse Citizen 2: Its not really the hell hole the Holy Government said it was, its actually a nice place. Tea?


So, my point is that, from what I can see, the quality of FFs has been up to scratch since Wada has taken over. There has definitely been innovation in story-telling techniques, gameplay mechanics and graphical design, and XIII looks like it will continue the trend.

I will just agree to disagree with you cause I feel the latest entries have been mixed and match and I feel some have been steps back. Not just in the FF mainline games but in SE titles in general. To each their own.


The area I think that Square-Enix is failing is their IPs outside of their main series. But, perhaps what Wada is now trying to do is to create these different types of IPs under the FF umbrella - if Versus is anything to go by. In which case, a rose by any other name smells as sweet, and you can't really complain seeing how Ivalice has come under the Final Fantasy name in 2 pure iterations and 2 somewhat watered-down (Tactics Advance - bleh).

I'm not exactly happy with the Ivalice titles. I love Tactics and I enjoyed XII but the latest offerings from the Ivalice team have been sub par and completely imbalanced. I'm almost afraid to say Ivalice is as good as dead without Matsuno but perhaps they can surprise me. Still, TA2 was disappointing as a story and it hardly addressed my complaints with TA1 and RW has been a truly painful experience (the real kicker here for me is that XIII's writer and directer made this game) thanks to its really lackluster storyline and its bastardization of the XII cast. These sub-par and dreadful offerings have all but made me feel that the Ivalice Alliance should end with the Compilation of VII...


Flying Arrow: I'll get to your post later but right now I'm exhausted :eep:

[champagne supernova]

Oh, I missed your point about the shops. You're saying there is no need to use them because of the dropped items - which is a fair point (I thought you were referring to the Call-Shop junction in VIII). And again, I agree with you that Square-Enix's NPCs aren't the most fleshed out in the world. And I see your point with MGS4, although I don't think that the 'interactive' cut-scenes were exactly the most heart-wrenching and pertinent parts of the story to be told (the only really heart-wrenching bit of the game when I was playing was right at the end when he's crawling down the tunnel - the others set the scene and added excitement).

And I see your point that X's game world at times felt very constrained and linear. But there is a lot of extra stuff to do in Spira if you look for it, including the battle arena in the Calm Lands. But then again, you hate the combat system, so that is a bit of a problem.

To be honest, I think your major qualm about the PS2 Final Fantasy is that they are too easy - judging by how you place X's battle in the MGS world. I kind of agree with you there and think it'd be nice if Square followed what most other developers do and include a DIFFICULTY button, even if it is adjustable in-game. But the inherent problem that Square have, even with said button, is that people who level grind can make all their battles easy, thereby making any thought in the boss battles unimportant. I found that one of my more enjoyable battles was against Seymoure outside Bevelle, as I used all elements of the new combat system (both seeing the order of turns and swapping characters in/out to fill certain roles). And if XIII does introduce level caps, I think this is a great idea.

And I understand that the areas in X seemed, narrower, I guess is the word. But this was Square Enix's first time rendering all aspects of the game in real-time, so cut them some slack. And, although the game world is definitely the smallest, it is definitely beautiful, and there are very few areas that feel rushed or as if the developers did not care about. And the world was more detailed than XII's, if smaller (remember, XII has a lot of grass and a lot of sand - I really hate the Sandsea - whereas X's areas are quite a lot more compact). So, I understand your point but I also understand the constraints that Square were under.

And X-2 was not linear. It allowed you to play the game in the order you wanted. You could even just relax, play the silly game of Blitzball manager or Sphere Break, which I managed to win when I needed to in the game, but am yet to understand how it works. And of course, all FFs are more open than MGS. It's not like in MGS you can go back to the desert again, or go chill in a town. It's action, action, action. Albeit very entertaining action.

And as for a very linear RPG which had no stores or towns, and which areas were probably smaller than X's and less detailed (albeit due to technical constraints), go download Vagrant Story on your PS3. It's in the store. Oh, Vagrant Story also has one of the most broken and clumsy menu systems ever designed (and you have to use the menu quite a lot). Yet, despite all these faults and the fact that 10 years and 2 consoles of technological progress has occurred, I am playing it now and enjoying it.

[Wolf Kanno]

What I feel separates the PS1-era and the PS2/3 era FFs is how Square has defined "cinematic" for each. Cinematic for the PS1 involved explorable artwork and careful screen direction, whereas as the PS2/3 games are "cinematic" because of the frequent story-based cutscenes, which are usually presented completely differently than the gamer-controlled bits (not so in the PS1 games). Enjoyment of either is all based on taste, of course, but I just wanted to perhaps raise a point about what makes each generation of Final Fantasy tick.

(NOTE: XII is also a completely different experience than X and seemingly XIII, but mostly because of level-design choices rather than cinematic, I feel. Enjoyment of either style, again, comes down to taste).

I agree on most points but I feel there is a lack of credit due to the PS1 era entries as their dungeon designs had more thought. Its not just the visual presentation there is actually a real sense of interaction with them even if many of them are simply just flip switch puzzles but I digress that this comes back to the real point of where I feel both X and XII went wrong in a way. X's design are so simple and linear that they not only hinder and choice for the player but sorta break the fourth wall as you quickly realize that the most intriguing parts of Spira are "fenced off" from the player. You are trapped in a guided tour. XII for the most part broke away from this and created a huge open ended world which many fans feel is perhaps too "open". Though I feel XII gives more choice than X's design, it gets lost very quickly in the scale of the whole thing. What's the point in having fun min-quests or secrets when the player can't even find it. Acceptance of these designs comes down to personal taste and I'll happily admit I'd rather take large environments over a simply narrow road but I feel for the series to truly progress they need to better incorporate both types of designs.

I think part of the reason I could accept narrow design more from the PS1 generation is because they offered a world map that presented a open world design. The major story dungeons were linear (though hidden from excellent presentation as you pointed out and even then they still offered more choice) but actually reaching said dungeons would usually require one to wander the map to discover hidden secrets. At this point, SE is trying to move away from Overworld Map design to create more cohesive worlds and in order to make both camps happy, I feel SE needs to create a more balanced structure that offers a a bit of both and spread throughout the title.

One of XIII's major criticisms is that the majority of the level design is a linear road with only one open area (Pulse) that opens up fairly late in the game which is very similar to X's structure concerning the Calm Lands.



Oh, I missed your point about the shops. You're saying there is no need to use them because of the dropped items - which is a fair point (I thought you were referring to the Call-Shop junction in VIII). And again, I agree with you that Square-Enix's NPCs aren't the most fleshed out in the world. And I see your point with MGS4, although I don't think that the 'interactive' cut-scenes were exactly the most heart-wrenching and pertinent parts of the story to be told (the only really heart-wrenching bit of the game when I was playing was right at the end when he's crawling down the tunnel - the others set the scene and added excitement).

I feel MGS3 did a much better job than MGS4 but even then it comes down to more personal taste and perspective, so I can't really argue if you didn't walk away with the same experience as I do.



And I see your point that X's game world at times felt very constrained and linear. But there is a lot of extra stuff to do in Spira if you look for it, including the battle arena in the Calm Lands. But then again, you hate the combat system, so that is a bit of a problem.

My main problem is that most of this extra stuff appears late in the game and even the few you can do before hand don't offer anything worthwhile until you pass a certain point, which is the end of the game. You spend the majority of the first 4/5ths of the game just plowing through the simple world design and story with Blitzball as your only diversion which as I said earlier becomes less fun once you gain some levels and a competent team seeing as how Tidus can Sphere Shot your way to victory once he gains a few levels.

As for combat, its not that I don't like the idea behind CTB its just that I feel they made some design choices that destroy the experience. I like the idea of switching out party members to deal with situations but when your party can simply one hit kill their designated enemy the majority of combat becomes nothing but shuffling party members in to kill the enemies which I find to be more tedious than just mashing X until my party kills everything like in previous games. The lack of difficulty makes switching out party members an exercise in tedium. Also, if you try to level up all your characters, it becomes even more tedious as you then have to shuffle worthless party members in just so they can get XP (also I learned that cycling in party members does not affect the amount of XP your party gets) so I feel they made random encounters even more annoying than in previous installments.

Boss fight are crippled due to many of them either having a command special that gives your party a very overwhelming advantage or the game screams at you about the enemies weakness (Boss at Kilika anyone?). So I never really felt the game utilized the turn order system as effective as it should cause it literally holds your hand through many of the boss fights and the majority of random encounters are so easy its not worth your time. The battle system/customization system doesn't come into its own until the very end of the game when it starts using exclusive "Big Monsters" and the game stops helping you with boss fight and personally I just don't feel its good game design to have to slog through 30+ hours of a game before I get to the fun part.

That's my real problem, the game doesn't throw anything at you that is worthy of the battle system until its almost over and then I have to ask myself why I should care? Even then there is a lot of imbalance (Quick Hit/Aeons) in the game so to be perfectly fair the only real challenge in the game is presented in the Monster Arena which is completely optional and doesn't really help make the game feel like a cohesive experience.


To be honest, I think your major qualm about the PS2 Final Fantasy is that they are too easy - judging by how you place X's battle in the MGS world. I kind of agree with you there and think it'd be nice if Square followed what most other developers do and include a DIFFICULTY button, even if it is adjustable in-game. But the inherent problem that Square have, even with said button, is that people who level grind can make all their battles easy, thereby making any thought in the boss battles unimportant. I found that one of my more enjoyable battles was against Seymoure outside Bevelle, as I used all elements of the new combat system (both seeing the order of turns and swapping characters in/out to fill certain roles). And if XIII does introduce level caps, I think this is a great idea.

Diffiulty in RPGs is hard to come by but this is one of the few things I am looking forward to in XIII cause I feel the level caps are a great idea, I'm not to fond of them taking the annoying SMT design of making it an auto game over if the player controlled character dies cause frankly I feel that is a huge step back even from X which gave you at least the courtesy of only giving out a game over if your active party dies.

The odd thing is that difficulty in RPGs has been waning since the late SNES days. For FF, I feel difficulty really began to take a dive starting with VI as it was the first game to introduce a large amount of abusive elements in gameplay and its only gotten steadily worst, accumulating in my eyes within the main series with X and more recently with Crisis Core. Ironically, I feel the PS2 generation has actually been slowly bringing difficulty back, XI is not easy by any terms and I feel X-2 and XII both offered steady challenge that was at least reminiscent of the early PS1 days.

This of course is an ongoing problem with all RPGs not just SE. I feel only SMT has reached a perfect level of challenging difficulty. The games are easy if you use good strategy but the game is challenging enough where you will see the Game Over screen more often than not. I don't think I even remember what the Game Over screen even looks like in VI, VII, VIII, and X but I could probably flawlessly recite the words Igor tells you when you die in Persona 3.

I think in terms of challenge, XIII is moving in the right direction at least. The only problem I ever had with SE's version of Difficulty is that it usually involves cheap tactics like overwhelming stat differences. Crisis Core for instance is stupidly easy on normal mode and an act of totla frustration in hard mode cause the huge stat differences turns the game into "Zack Must Die Mode" unless you maxed out everything in the pathetically easy Normal Mode. Once again I feel there is a huge discrepancy between the story and the actual game. I feel we've reached a point now where we can say most people have tried an RPG so we should stop catering to newbie scrubs and make something balanced so the people who buy the games regularly don't have to feel cheated with watered down difficulty.


And I understand that the areas in X seemed, narrower, I guess is the word. But this was Square Enix's first time rendering all aspects of the game in real-time, so cut them some slack. And, although the game world is definitely the smallest, it is definitely beautiful, and there are very few areas that feel rushed or as if the developers did not care about. And the world was more detailed than XII's, if smaller (remember, XII has a lot of grass and a lot of sand - I really hate the Sandsea - whereas X's areas are quite a lot more compact). So, I understand your point but I also understand the constraints that Square were under.

I will disagree on two points. I know its Squares first FF on a new system (though the Bouncer should have given them some ideas how the system would work) but it still doesn't really excuse the fact they chose visual aesthetics over competent game design. X may be visually superior to the PS1 entries but it feels like a serious step down from the amount of options and gameplay mechanics offered in IX and even VII and VIII. They at least offer more choices and creativity within the linear framework whereas X offered a tour bus ride of Spira. I got to see Gaia but I was able to experience Gaia.

Also, I disagree about XII not being better graphically than X. Too many people get stuck on the Estersand and Sandsea but forget how awesome the Feywood, Steppes, Henne Mines, and all the cities look. The amount of detail in all these designs are staggering. You also forget that X has its fair share of boring areas. The Moonflow, Calm Lands, Mushroom Rock, and the Mi'Hen Highroad are pretty bland to me. The difference between XII and X is that you spend more time in the XII areas so they lose their original sparkle after awhile.

When you look back from the transition between VI and VII, the gameplay and world design was not sacrificed for the graphical upgrade (for the time). The transition between IX and X is similar to the one between III and IV. III offered a lot of choice within its framework whereas IV sacrificed a lot of it for a an engaging linear storyline. My only problem with making the story the major player as the driving force of the game is that it really depends on how much the player likes the plot. I liked IVs bizarre plot which is why I do still like the game but I strongly disliked X's which is what makes the game even more difficult to play through since it lacks strong gameplay to fall back on. This is the main problem I feel XIII has set itself up with.

Bringing this back to XIII though, I feel the game has no real excuse for following back to X's design, in fact it sounds pretty intentional considering the stuff I've heard about the games pacing but the title will live and die by its story. My problem is that I feel I'm being cheated out of a game and basically going to spend my money on a very expensive movie ticket. Even if combat proves to be exceptional, I feel XIII will still bother me for removing too many gameplay elements that I personally enjoy.



And X-2 was not linear. It allowed you to play the game in the order you wanted. You could even just relax, play the silly game of Blitzball manager or Sphere Break, which I managed to win when I needed to in the game, but am yet to understand how it works. And of course, all FFs are more open than MGS. It's not like in MGS you can go back to the desert again, or go chill in a town. It's action, action, action. Albeit very entertaining action.

I don't think I even said X-2 was bad linear :confused: Of anything I think I only said that X-2 offered better level design than XIII was giving and that I don't understand why people think X-2's combat system is so godly. Of anything X-2 was pretty non-linear, my only beef with the title was its plot, cast, and that it kinda ruined the few elements I liked about X's story.


And as for a very linear RPG which had no stores or towns, and which areas were probably smaller than X's and less detailed (albeit due to technical constraints), go download Vagrant Story on your PS3. It's in the store. Oh, Vagrant Story also has one of the most broken and clumsy menu systems ever designed (and you have to use the menu quite a lot). Yet, despite all these faults and the fact that 10 years and 2 consoles of technological progress has occurred, I am playing it now and enjoying it.

Well a couple of points I'd like to make regarding my beloved Vagrant Story.

A) It's not a tradition JRPG, more like an Action RPG Dungeon Crawler which means it doesn't really have to stick to RPG gaming conventions cause no one expects it.

B)The areas are actually fairly big but what makes them special is that they are all interconnected. You will actually be doing some backtracking in this game. The level design was created to make a cohesive fallen city world and it does it beautifully. The fact is though, the game eventually begins to get bigger and offer more choices cause you are in effect playing this title Metroidvania style with the "world" gradually getting bigger as you progress. You can return to places you've been to (and you will) and there are multiple ways to reach your destinations in the game. So I can't say the game is truly linear the way I feel X is. The player is still granted a lot of freedom whereas X doesn't really offer much. The bottome line is that the world is not one big road but rather a huge labyrith of twisting corridors. It has an unpredictable element.

C) It doesn't have shops but it has the abandoned blacksmith shops which you use to build customizable weapons that are actually worth your time to make cause this game does not like giving you good drops from enemies and even treasure chests only yield stuff that might be good enough to keep you alive as opposed to actually giving you something worthwhile. Seriously, take a look at the Gamefaqs entry on the weapon building for this game learn just how "deep the white rabbit hole is..." Its not a traditional shop but it actually offers the elements I look for from equipment gaining in shops. Its a great alternative, the problem is that X's wasn't as good imo, and XIII does not appear to be offering such an alternative. :p

[VeloZer0]

X wasn't enormosly challenging, but at least it kept me occupied thinking about how I would swap in all 7 characters to get exp, while getting over kills on all the enemies, while taking as few hits as possible. Had I not carred about overkills or damage mitigation (didn't really mater, but I'm old school and budget all MP zealously), I probaby would have found the battles a fairly standard borring grind.

What interests me is that you described XII as a step up in difficulty. I found XII to be mind numbingly easy. I just spent a few minutes setting up gambits at the beginning and then watched by characters beat the game themselves for 60 hours. You talk about games being essentially movies, well in XII all I ever did was navigate my characters through dungeons and rapidly press x during cutsceens out of habit.

As for side quests during the game, after reading the last few pages of discussion back and forth I think we are so far off we just have to chalk it up to difference of opinion. I personally feel side quests during the middle of the game are a detractor from the games central story line, so I'm guessing FFXIII's 'fast-paced' (whatever the heck that means) story will probably appeal to me.
---------------------------------------

On the topic of cinematic experiences, I have to ask myself, is it really as relevant anymore? In the PS1 FFs the difference between what they can do in game and in FMV is massive, and FMVs are an essential part of the game experience. However, in FFXII (which despite my overall dissatisfaction of the game I am extremely impressed by the technical [graphics, sound, voice acting] aspects of) whenever there was a FMV it usualy took me a while to clue in that it was even happening. In game was so close to FMV that I could barely notice, and even to people more perceptive than I the difference would be negligible.

With the current (a.k.a. 'next') generation systems I don't even see the need for FMV in the game at all. Compound that with the fact the according to another thread I'm not going to look up, something like 30/38 GB of game data is FMV. I can't help but imagine if they had done the majority of this in game we would be seeing this game a lot sooner. And imho, the would make more money if they released two FF FMV-lite titles in the same span of time they released the current FMV bloated product.

[Wolf Kanno]

X wasn't enormosly challenging, but at least it kept me occupied thinking about how I would swap in all 7 characters to get exp, while getting over kills on all the enemies, while taking as few hits as possible. Had I not carred about overkills or damage mitigation (didn't really mater, but I'm old school and budget all MP zealously), I probaby would have found the battles a fairly standard borring grind.

See, switching them all in was just horribly tedious and did make every battle feel like a grindfest for me as I would drop in someone like Yuna and Kimarhi who were totally worthless half the time. I really found leveling in this game to be boring.


What interests me is that you described XII as a step up in difficulty. I found XII to be mind numbingly easy. I just spent a few minutes setting up gambits at the beginning and then watched by characters beat the game themselves for 60 hours. You talk about games being essentially movies, well in XII all I ever did was navigate my characters through dungeons and rapidly press x during cutsceens out of habit.This really all depends on how you approach the game and play it. I never allowed Gambits to take over my whole party (I am a control freak) so I would usually control my leader character and set up my parties gambits for tedious tasks like casting buff/debuff spells until later in the game when I opened enough of the License Board to start building makeshift job classes, at which point I built proper Gambit set-ups for said "classes" at this point I found myself needing to actually switch between party members regularly to keep myself from getting killed since I never bothered to let all my character be healers or fighters so occasionally I needed to switch up to use items or use an ability the situation needs cause the Gambits can't cover everything. So I can't exactly say I understand when people say "the game played itself" cause I would simply ask you "why did you let it?" ;)

As for difficulty, there are tough bosses in XII, you cannot tell me you waltzed over Zodiark, Ultima, Gilgamesh, or the Elder Wyrm. Unless you grind like hell and then use a guide to secure ultimate equipment early its actually difficult to get through a majority of the boss fights and Mark Hunts. Hell just taking on the Mark Hunts as they became available proved to be challenge and I died enough times with a few of them to finally say screw it and came back to them later with better equips and levels. Many of them require strategies I wouldn't have bothered to use normally but felt incredibly rewarding none the less.



On the topic of cinematic experiences, I have to ask myself, is it really as relevant anymore? In the PS1 FFs the difference between what they can do in game and in FMV is massive, and FMVs are an essential part of the game experience. However, in FFXII (which despite my overall dissatisfaction of the game I am extremely impressed by the technical [graphics, sound, voice acting] aspects of) whenever there was a FMV it usualy took me a while to clue in that it was even happening. In game was so close to FMV that I could barely notice, and even to people more perceptive than I the difference would be negligible.

With the current (a.k.a. 'next') generation systems I don't even see the need for FMV in the game at all. Compound that with the fact the according to another thread I'm not going to look up, something like 30/38 GB of game data is FMV. I can't help but imagine if they had done the majority of this in game we would be seeing this game a lot sooner. And imho, the would make more money if they released two FF FMV-lite titles in the same span of time they released the current FMV bloated product.I can pretty much agree with your sentiments here. I actually disliked most of the High quality FMVs cause the characters looked so radically different from their perfectly good in game models. This was another issue I didn't care about really any of the PS2 games, X's was weird cause everyone suddenly became Asian during the high quality scene and whiter than white Tidus became beach tanned, it was hilarious.

In XII, I always felt like the characters looked like Barbie Dolls cause the get so cleaned up from the awesome "dirty" models featured in game. Even XI has a few that bug me (don't get me started on Kingdom Hearts or Crisis Core) and I feel we should stick to using in-game models instead of this high quality stuff cause they are simply gorgeous at this point and Full FMVs no longer carry the purpose they once had.

[VeloZer0]

I think we are once again just going to have to toss FFX into one of those agree to disagree piles.

-----------------------

I think the 'well why didn't you just not use gambits' arguments to be extremely shallow. All I did was set my gambits up to buff my characters, and attack enemies, and heal when needed. These are the most repetitive actions, and sure automating them might have been a good idea. My problem is that after automating the redundant actions, there was nothing else left. So what, I turn my gambits off and start doing the mundane tasks myself? I am a control freak also, and for the first 10 hour of the game I didn't use them at all. I only put them in to alleviate the drudgery of the system. Turns out a boring system (if you get down to it it really is an ATB game with 'wait' turned off)

But I digress, this is something for the FFXII forum, which incidentally I don't visit because I don't see the point in dwelling on games I don't like. :)

(For the record, I've done all the mark hunts except whatever the last pre-yazmat one is, and they were all cake. Only difference is I had to manually select when to use cure instead of having the computer do it. I think part of what makes the game so difficult is people insisting in making classes. Immediately after starting the game I saw that having 3x sword+shield with heals was by far the most powerful combo. My friends tried to use magic/other setups, ect and it was much more difficult for them. Once again, not my fault if the game is unbalanced.)

------------------

Now to scan back through the thread to find something else to respond to so this isn't an exclusively FFXII bashing post...

Variable difficulty was mentioned earlier, and the way the industry is now it is a little difficult to implement. When I see a game ask me for difficulty, there are usually three options. I'll be damed if I chose easy (any really, who choses easy right of the back), and hard is just about always tunned to be impossible for someone who hasn't played the game (FPS games excluded). So such an easily implementable model isn't really practical.

One easy way to do it was level grinding. In old school games it is automatically hard mode unless you chose to spend time lowering the difficulty. From a game balance perspective this is a fascinating idea (I doubt many of us have looked at it this way before), however we all know how much fans appreciate level grinding in practice.

I have more kicking around in my head, but I think this topic could deserve its own thread in the future.

[Wolf Kanno]

I think we are once again just going to have to toss FFX into one of those agree to disagree piles.

That's how most of my FFX debates usually end. ;)



I think the 'well why didn't you just not use gambits' arguments to be extremely shallow. All I did was set my gambits up to buff my characters, and attack enemies, and heal when needed. These are the most repetitive actions, and sure automating them might have been a good idea. My problem is that after automating the redundant actions, there was nothing else left. So what, I turn my gambits off and start doing the mundane tasks myself? I am a control freak also, and for the first 10 hour of the game I didn't use them at all. I only put them in to alleviate the drudgery of the system. Turns out a boring system (if you get down to it it really is an ATB game with 'wait' turned off)You didn't understand my meaning here, I didn't say why didn't you turn off the Gambits, I asked you why would build a set-up that could play itself. Its kinda one of those hindsight questions where you should realize it wouldn't be fun watching the A.I. do everything. I made sure that A.I. couldn't do everything and I set it up so I was fairly regularly switching between characters to do certain actions I didn't set up. Towards the end I think I only had one dedicated healer and most of my party had several Gambits that I used for short amounts of time, would switch off, and then manually start playing through to utilize actions like attacking and healing (which are useful commands not redundant imo). I think I only had the attack Gambits on when I was revisiting old areas and didn't want to deal with combat since I generally find random encounters to be annoying after awhile. This way I could keep focus on what I wanted to do, so that is about the only time I ever let the game kinda play itself.

It is ATB, I don't think anyone has ever argued it wasn't. Its actually X-2's ATB system to be exact. XII's just allows you to move around while you fight which is more useful for casters and ranged characters than melee.


But I digress, this is something for the FFXII forum, which incidentally I don't visit because I don't see the point in dwelling on games I don't like. :)I appreciate you don't come in cause I do get annoyed when every other thread is "this game sucks". This is why I never go into the X forum cause I have nothing good to say about the game and choose to troll it from General FF as opposed to bothering the actual fans in their forum. :D


(For the record, I've done all the mark hunts except whatever the last pre-yazmat one is, and they were all cake. Only difference is I had to manually select when to use cure instead of having the computer do it. I think part of what makes the game so difficult is people insisting in making classes. Immediately after starting the game I saw that having 3x sword+shield with heals was by far the most powerful combo. My friends tried to use magic/other setups, ect and it was much more difficult for them. Once again, not my fault if the game is unbalanced.)I guess my first question is when did you actually start doing the Mark Hunts? I know you don't like side quests in the middle of the game so I find it hard to believe you would have done them as they came.

As for the difficulty, I guess I would like to just point out that although XII is unbalanced it can be fun you just chose a bad way to play the game. You made a party of clones and didn't have fun, I made a diverse party and had a hell of a time, who here really made the better decision. Most games have exploitable elements. I mean if I wanted to I could easily bust my way through FFT by building a party of Knights with duel wield cause their is very little in the game that could match up against that, especially in the main story but I choose not to cause I have the option for variety and the system tells me there are other ways to play them. The most effective way is not always the fun way to play a game. I would never enjoy VI if I simply stuck to spamming special abilites or Ultima nor would I enjoy VII and VIII by using nothing but summons and Limit Breaks. Seriously, name me one RPG that is fun by building all your characters the same?

XII is unbalanced (what game isn't?) but I feel more often than not its always the players fault for having a bad experience cause you chose to play the game in a way that wouldn't be fun for you and unlike some titles it actually gives you the option to do so and then some. This is why I feel the game gives back as much as you are willing to put in. I recognized that XII could build a party of clones and that is why I strayed from it cause I've never had an enjoyable experience building such set-ups. I made XII into a fun game and all it really required of me was a little self control to avoid the obvious easy way out.



Now to scan back through the thread to find something else to respond to so this isn't an exclusively FFXII bashing post...

Variable difficulty was mentioned earlier, and the way the industry is now it is a little difficult to implement. When I see a game ask me for difficulty, there are usually three options. I'll be damed if I chose easy (any really, who choses easy right of the back), and hard is just about always tunned to be impossible for someone who hasn't played the game (FPS games excluded). So such an easily implementable model isn't really practical.

One easy way to do it was level grinding. In old school games it is automatically hard mode unless you chose to spend time lowering the difficulty. From a game balance perspective this is a fascinating idea (I doubt many of us have looked at it this way before), however we all know how much fans appreciate level grinding in practice.

I have more kicking around in my head, but I think this topic could deserve its own thread in the future.The problem with grinding is that many people find it boring. Yes it makes the game easier but it doesn't change the fact the game is made more tedious because of it. Besides level caps, I feel FF should take a chapter out of DQ and make grinding beyond level 50 pointless by removing all stat upgrades as well.

Personally, I feel the major problem with difficulty in RPGs is that the game don't build in enough weaknesses into your party. This is something I kinda noticed while playing SMT and early non-FF RPGs. They only stick to the tried and true stuff like Mages have little HP and no defense or Warriors have a weakness to magic but usually equipment augments all this up and its so easy to cover for these short falls its almost redundant to even use them anymore. Characters should have real elemental weaknesses or ability weaknesses that can only sorta be dealt with but never completely removed.

Bosses should also be utilizing similar ideas, with more emphasis on using strategy over just building a perfect defense set-up or perfect offense set-up. I just want RPG difficulty to move away from "let's jack up their stats!" cause it doesn't make the games harder as much as it makes them more annoying cause all you need to do is grind more to win. :roll2

This is one of the reasons why I am very intrigued by XIII's battle system cause its suppose to require more strategy than most FFs.

[VeloZer0]

#!@$%^@#% I typed the whole thing up and then accidentally hit a hotkey erasing everything with no hope of recovery. Here I go again.

In regards to the ‘ATB-ness’ of FFXII, it wasn’t in regards to any specific comments in this thread, just the general attitude that FFXIIs system is a departure from traditional FF mechanics. If we take away gambits, (which aren’t really mechanics so much as bots on top of the existing mechanics) it really reminds me of a SNES era system more than a PS1 era system.

---

As for setting up gambits, I simply automated all the tasks in the game I found repetitive and thoughtless, and I wasn’t left with anything else. I could have taken some control away from the gambits but I wouldn’t have enjoyed doing it manually myself any more. (Think if you had a computer controlling FFX for you and you were told that you would enjoy it more if you controlled it yourself.)

---

FFXII was the last straw in me deciding I didn’t like side quests mid game. I wasn’t high on them to begin with, but with Mark Hunts (and FFXII in general) being a great new paradigm in game development I decided to give it an honest go. As you can see it did not end amicably.

---

For me one of the most enjoyable parts of any video game is trying to min/max my party to the best of my ability. So when I make something at the start of the game and feel no need to change it as I play though, you can understand how I am a little disappointed. In a game, such as FFT, the first time I play through I am constantly trying to make my party as powerful as possible, and am constantly having to adapt and think of new things as new enemies/abilities are introduced, not to mention my knowledge of the game increasing as I go along. FFXII never had that for me in the least.

In regards to handicapping, if you have to handicap yourself on your first play through to make it enjoyable it is a broken game. Subsequent play throughs it is a given, but the first time is inexcusable. Even in FFT when I handicap myself to try out new classes and strategies I lay the ground rules at the start of the play through and then try and tweak and max out my party as much as I can within those rules.

As you can probably guess I’m not a fan of sandboxy titles in general. :)

---

One problem with the weaknesses of party members (I agree with it as a game mechanic whole heartedly) is that you are then forced to chose between play style and favorite characters. I generally try and build my party of my favorite characters first and foremost (this is the one constraint that overrides the min/maxing I mentioned above), mainly because I know if I pick a party of people I don’t like as characters I will probably lose interest in the title and stop playing. And generally I don’t fell like having a good section of a games characters in my party (I’m a fairly misanthropic person). Now, in some games where there is virtually no difference game play wise I am free to do what I want. In others this can lead me to into a choice between choosing characters I won’t enjoy playing as, or a play style I won’t enjoy. Something like FFXII where anyone can be anything isn’t a bad design paradigm, but the fact everyone can be everything kind of smurfs it up. (I prefer the FFT idea where you can learn everything but still have to be highly selective as to what you can actually be.)
Of course this has been marginalized by the proliferation (Is it a good or bad day when I have to stop myself from using paradigm too many times in an argument?) of cutscenes and voice acting, forcing every character to be in every plot scene.

[Wolf Kanno]

#!@$%^@#% I typed the whole thing up and then accidentally hit a hotkey erasing everything with no hope of recovery. Here I go again.

I hate when that happens... :(


In regards to the ‘ATB-ness’ of FFXII, it wasn’t in regards to any specific comments in this thread, just the general attitude that FFXIIs system is a departure from traditional FF mechanics. If we take away gambits, (which aren’t really mechanics so much as bots on top of the existing mechanics) it really reminds me of a SNES era system more than a PS1 era system. I find there is little difference in PS1 generation and SNES generation versions of ATB. Except possibly IV and VII, IV cause it put in "cast" time for abiulities so your character never did immediately do what you asked them to. VII cause it made multiple spell effects cast simultaneously instead of the past where each enemy gets hit one at a time thus speeding up some of the animations. Even then if you could add that speed to other FFs you would still get the effect.


As for setting up gambits, I simply automated all the tasks in the game I found repetitive and thoughtless, and I wasn’t left with anything else. I could have taken some control away from the gambits but I wouldn’t have enjoyed doing it manually myself any more. (Think if you had a computer controlling FFX for you and you were told that you would enjoy it more if you controlled it yourself.)X pretty much tells you how to do everything and then further insults your intelligence by making the game ridiculously easy to boot as though it was so hard you really did need the computers help. It treats you like a child. :p

To me it just sounds like you think combat is tedious and repetitive (which it actually is) so when you switched the gambits for it you found nothing else, once again I feel this says more about the player than the game. To be honest, XII really opened my eyes to how much I felt random normal encounters are tedious and pointless but I never once felt it was XII's fault, rather thinking back made me realize how often I don't like normal encounters cause all I usually do is mash X and read a book.

Because of this discovery I started to play more with Gambits and the License Board (which is actually what I do in most games so this does not make XII any different from past installments) and found ways to creatively use things to make the game a more enjoyable experience for myself.



FFXII was the last straw in me deciding I didn’t like side quests mid game. I wasn’t high on them to begin with, but with Mark Hunts (and FFXII in general) being a great new paradigm in game development I decided to give it an honest go. As you can see it did not end amicably.Fair enough, I guess we'll just agree to disagree. :D




For me one of the most enjoyable parts of any video game is trying to min/max my party to the best of my ability. So when I make something at the start of the game and feel no need to change it as I play though, you can understand how I am a little disappointed. In a game, such as FFT, the first time I play through I am constantly trying to make my party as powerful as possible, and am constantly having to adapt and think of new things as new enemies/abilities are introduced, not to mention my knowledge of the game increasing as I go along. FFXII never had that for me in the least. I believe in Min/Max as well, where my school of thought differs is that I don't believe in clones. I treat melee and magic as opposites and instead min-max the concepts themselves. I don't build ultimate omni set-ups in FFT nor did I bother in XII cause my major complaint with RPGs that allow you to build parties based on a group of generics is that you have the ability to make them the same and even though they are powerful, it doesn't any less cheapen the experience of the game itself for me.

Anyone can build an army of clones and I feel its not very difficult to do so even in games like Tactics, true skill in my crazy train of thought comes from making any combination good instead of just building the best combination but this is how I've always approached Min/Max in RPGs. Overall, I learned along time ago that Ultima spamming in VI wasn't fun and instead I got more of a kick out of specializing each of my characters and XII brought this all back to me.


In regards to handicapping, if you have to handicap yourself on your first play through to make it enjoyable it is a broken game. Subsequent play throughs it is a given, but the first time is inexcusable. Even in FFT when I handicap myself to try out new classes and strategies I lay the ground rules at the start of the play through and then try and tweak and max out my party as much as I can within those rules.See I don't consider this handicapping, rather you are choosing to approach the game differently while still using all the tools available. You can still have one character be absolutely perfect but choose to specialize the other two, how is that really handicapping? cause you know an abusive combination that makes the game less fun for you? Handicapping to me in XII would be choosing not to use the License Board or using a stating equip set up only, or choosing not to level. Handicapping is what I have to do to make X fun cause in order to make the game challenging I have to ignore using the Sphere Grid completely and never use Aeons which are core components of the gameplay. Handicapping to me is ignoring what the game tells you what you should do and nowhere does XII say that building a party of perfect omni-clones is the only way to approach it. :D

Utilizing a Limited set-up and handicapping are very different things in my opinion. Limited set-up just requires that you are focusing all your resources into making them the best at their specific task. I don't see how making an ultimate black mage is handicapping myself cause he can't use armors or swords and I stuck to only giving him skills to make him good at one thing over others. This is really all you are doing In XII as well You throw light armor on one, magic armor on another and heavy on the third and go from there. If I need my magic user to be a warrior I change their set up to reflect this and then switch out another character to fill in the void my magic user left.

Just because you can build an army of clones doesn't mean that is what the system is designed for and can only be used for. I still feel you are approaching this game with a narrow view but if that is your choice then its not my place to say you are wrong or not. Obviously the game just wasn't designed for you in mind.


As you can probably guess I’m not a fan of sandboxy titles in general. :)I actually don't like them either but I felt XII hit the right balanced. Though I feel we share a very different opinion on what "open-ended" means ;)



One problem with the weaknesses of party members (I agree with it as a game mechanic whole heartedly) is that you are then forced to chose between play style and favorite characters. I generally try and build my party of my favorite characters first and foremost (this is the one constraint that overrides the min/maxing I mentioned above), mainly because I know if I pick a party of people I don’t like as characters I will probably lose interest in the title and stop playing. And generally I don’t fell like having a good section of a games characters in my party (I’m a fairly misanthropic person). Now, in some games where there is virtually no difference game play wise I am free to do what I want. In others this can lead me to into a choice between choosing characters I won’t enjoy playing as, or a play style I won’t enjoy. Something like FFXII where anyone can be anything isn’t a bad design paradigm, but the fact everyone can be everything kind of smurfs it up. (I prefer the FFT idea where you can learn everything but still have to be highly selective as to what you can actually be.)
Of course this has been marginalized by the proliferation (Is it a good or bad day when I have to stop myself from using paradigm too many times in an argument?) of cutscenes and voice acting, forcing every character to be in every plot scene.The few games I've played that utilize this mechanic has never bothered me. Of anything it really changed my way of approaching games as I found myself using characters I never would have thought to use and enjoying it sadly enough. By specializing and building in strengths and weaknesses you can set up dungeons and gameplay to cater to specific characters and allow them to shine. I really feel the best design for the future of RPGs was made in Persona 3 cause it pretty much does all I've been talking about. Better usage of NPCs better gameplay that focuses on strategy over power leveling, and just more thought into how you use a party or how you should build a game world, not to mention the title is challenging. Its a linear game that utilizes very non-linear gameplay choices and options.

[VeloZer0]

I really have to bump Persona up my to play list so I have a better idea of these concepts you are trying to describe.

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In regards to combat being tedious, I think the one thing that separated FFXII from other titles (for me) was the amount of mana regen. I regained more mana than I spent, even on boss fights. I am extremely cheap when it comes to managing resources, so usually what keeps me engaged in battles is trying to budget it so I use the least amount of MP possible. If I don't cast offensive spells I will use too much MP healing, if I use too many I run out, ect... Thus in FFXII I had absolutely no incentive to be ingaged in the random encounter. And like I said, I actually enjoyed FFX random encounter design, I thought it was probably the best in the series.

I have heard that in FXIII there is some sort of ranking system after every battle, which I hope is a good way to keep me invested in the random battles. That is provided it isn't too easy our routine to get the highest rank.

---

I don't necessarily like clones, for instance I felt FFT for the most part you did better with a mixed party than an all clone one. Even when you factor in highly overpowered builds, you are better of with a several variety of a few overpowered builds. When I was setting up my party at the start of FFXII it just felt like I was being shoe-horned into making clones, as diversification didn't offer anything I couldn't do with clones.

EDIT: After reading the last few posts, they should make a Persona/FFT/FFX/FFXII forum for us, as those are the only games we really seem to want to draw examples from :)

[Bolivar]

Something like FFXII where anyone can be anything isn’t a bad design paradigm, but the fact everyone can be everything kind of smurfs it up.

Most of what you said explains more or less my thoughts on some of XII's decisions, but you might want to trademark this statement.

[Wolf Kanno]

I really have to bump Persona up my to play list so I have a better idea of these concepts you are trying to describe.

YES!!!


Seriously, everyone should play but especially you and Bolivar. ;)

P3 is my fave but judging by your taste in game design I feel you should play P4 (hell, P2 if you can find a copy) instead cause it gives you more control of your characters and how they grow and the story is more of the focus of the game than the high school Sim stuff.

My only issue with P4 is that they kinda dumbed down the combat system a little. In P3 physical attacks are treated like elemental attacks and separated into 3 types being slash/strike/pierce. This allowed more interesting party configurations and better uses of some Personas that could use all three types, as well as made the Main character even more awesome cause he can equip most of the games weapons whereas everyone is stuck using one type.

P4 chose to streamline this and turn all physical attacks into one type so it doesn't matter what kind of a physical attack it was, consequently though, they removed it as a weakness for enemies as well since it basically got dumbed down to the generic default attack which sadly cripples one party member who is actually built for physical abilities as well as a whole chunk of Personas who are built around as pure physical fighters. Despite all this P4 also introduces a bunch of new combat abilites that make gameplay very interesting, my main gripe is that I feel P3's combat is still much more polished and balanced despite P4 giving you more control (you only control your main character in P3 but can give your party members individual orders in combat).

Still, Min/Max is fun and challenging in this game, especially since status spells actually work and can save your ass at times. Teddie alone involves making some of the hardest choices in the game cause most of his abilities are insanely awesome but your restricted to only having 8 skills at a time.

P4 is probably more up your alley but P3 will always be my first love. :love:



In regards to combat being tedious, I think the one thing that separated FFXII from other titles (for me) was the amount of mana regen. I regained more mana than I spent, even on boss fights. I am extremely cheap when it comes to managing resources, so usually what keeps me engaged in battles is trying to budget it so I use the least amount of MP possible. If I don't cast offensive spells I will use too much MP healing, if I use too many I run out, ect... Thus in FFXII I had absolutely no incentive to be engaged in the random encounter. And like I said, I actually enjoyed FFX random encounter design, I thought it was probably the best in the series.See, XII sorta showed me the revelation that I don't like random encounters when they don't offer challenge and as I've said earlier, I don't feel FF has made a truly challenging games since possibly FFV. I find random encounters to be tedious in all the FFs starting from VI and up to XII. X being the worst offender for me personally cause it forced me to spend more time than five seconds to actually engage enemies that are not worth my time, so I can do tedious crap so I can XP for everyone in my party. XII allowed me to let the A.I. deal with it so I can actually spend more time exploring which is one of my favorite old school RPG elements that has been slowly and painfully removed from modern RPG games. So for me, it was a win/win situation. The Mark Hunts and Boss fights provided the combat that I loved.

I have not had the need to do item management in an FF since probably FFIII and even then I can only safely say their are three games in the series you can do it and its important FFI-III. Starting with IV its not as important except for ethers same with five and once again by VI and up, I feel item management is useless since the games throw items at you and cut the cost of purchasing them to near pennies. In X, I never felt the need to have a healer since monsters were so weak and it was too easy to get through battles without them having a chance to attack (making every battle almost a preemptive strike) not to mention how plentiful Save points were I don't think I ever used items or even Yuna after my first play through. XII doesn't do any better but I actually liked having regenerative MP cause it made my spell casters far more useful and I didn't have to worry about their major weaknesses. Hell I find their dependency on items to be one of the reasons why I don't like using Spell casters in early RPGs.


I have heard that in FXIII there is some sort of ranking system after every battle, which I hope is a good way to keep me invested in the random battles. That is provided it isn't too easy our routine to get the highest rank.There is a ranking system and it based on damage taken and time to beat as far as I've heard. Better ranks makes the monsters drop better loot. I'm looking forward to it cause it might make combat more enjoyable.



I don't necessarily like clones, for instance I felt FFT for the most part you did better with a mixed party than an all clone one. Even when you factor in highly overpowered builds, you are better of with a several variety of a few overpowered builds. When I was setting up my party at the start of FFXII it just felt like I was being shoe-horned into making clones, as diversification didn't offer anything I couldn't do with clones.I know too many people who go through FFT and basically make Knight with Duel Wield (Usually a combination of Excalibur/Save The Queen/ and Chaos Sword depending on whether they wanted high attack power or defense but Excalibur was mandatory for its auto-haste and immunity to Holy) and then sub Calculator with Flare and Holy as their only spells. That's all they would ever build and then they would complain about how the game had no real customization because this was the "perfect" set-up. This is kinda what your remarks on XII was reminding me of.

The amusing thing is that the diversity in equipment and how each weapon possesses its own strength and play styles gave me the impression the game wanted you to do job classes. I never felt it shoe horned the player into making clones, quite the opposite actually. I highly doubt there is a "perfect" set-up with clones cause you need specific types of weapons and armor to really max out magic and as for high damage attack power there are multiple builds for that depending on what weapon you want and whether you are going for multi damage, critical hits, or just consistent high damage. Even defensive builds will require you to make choices on what type of equipment you want to use and how you define defensive as either a high stat (Heavy armor) or evasion (Light armor and weapons like guns/knives/ and ninja blades), even choosing between shields/crossbows/and guns can change the set up cause they all carry high evasion and allow you to block enemy attacks.

I feel XII does offer you a min/max paradise, you just need to look beyond your normal train of thought and experiment, much like you would in Tactics. ;)


EDIT: After reading the last few posts, they should make a Persona/FFT/FFX/FFXII forum for us, as those are the only games we really seem to want to draw examples from :)I'll ask the other mods, hell just having a Persona forum would make me happy though it wouldn't really make sense in a FF forum but I find the people on these forums who have played Persona have a better head on their shoulders about the series than the ones I meet on actual Persona forums. Go figure. :sweatdrop:

[VeloZer0]

Yeah, that whole high school-sim was the reason it wasn't higher on my list to begin with. Having a game world I don't like is a major cause of me not finishing RPGs, I hear FFX-2 had a good battle system but I couldn't even get an hour into the game. I barely got through KH even though I really enjoyed the game, just because I was grating my teeth every time a Disney character was speaking. (except mickey, having him jump off a roof in a black costume and kill a whole bunch of heartless was pretty cool.)

---

I agree that FFV-FFX didn't offer much of a challenge in item management, I thought about addressing this in my post but decided it made my thoughts wander. The thing is, I played these games like it does matter. I barely use items in my play throughs, so in a way it could be considered an artificially added challenge. As I have said before, if I wasn't aiming for overkills and item/mana conservation in FFX I probably would have found it as boring as you did.

I've remarked in other threads how I really didn't like the enviornments created in FFXII (or the whole world or story for that matter), so I'll just say that gambits allowing me to focus more on exploring wasn't a big draw for me.

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The thing about the overpowered set ups you described for FFT was that they were all end game set-ups. Having the end game unbalanced is something I am far more forgiving of than having it unbalanced at the beginning. As I have mentioned previous, it is when I don't have to tweak my party anymore that I lose interest. (I've also thought up a LOT more OP [MMO shorthand for overpowered] setups than the ones you mentioned. I find thinking of builds that surpassed even the traditional OP builds to be an enjoyable pursuit.)

---

I found offensive magic to be completely useless in FFXII, with the spell que and all. Whenever I watch a spell being cast all I can think of the 6 auto attacks I could have landed in that time period and done more damage. And couple that with the fact anyone wanting to heal or buff is put into a holding pattern, every time I used magic it was an un-enjoyable experience.

---


I feel XII does offer you a min/max paradise, you just need to look beyond your normal train of thought and experiment, much like you would in Tactics.

Much more to say on this, but leaving for work is a higher priority at the moment.

[Bolivar]

Seriously, everyone should play but especially you and Bolivar. ;)

awww, that's so nice!!! :p

It's been on my list but like VeloZer0, I just don't know about the high school thing man. What if my girlfriend walked in on me playing that, and I specifically use the term "walked in on" because it might be an awkward moment where I would have to explain (not really she's actually into japanesey stuff like that). I think that's a pretty shallow reason so I should at least give it a shot, what's 30 minutes of my time, right?

Actually I'm gonna check if there's a demo up on the PS Store right now b/c I just got a PSP...

[Wolf Kanno]

Yeah, that whole high school-sim was the reason it wasn't higher on my list to begin with. Having a game world I don't like is a major cause of me not finishing RPGs, I hear FFX-2 had a good battle system but I couldn't even get an hour into the game. I barely got through KH even though I really enjoyed the game, just because I was grating my teeth every time a Disney character was speaking. (except mickey, having him jump off a roof in a black costume and kill a whole bunch of heartless was pretty cool.)

I wouldn't knock it til you try it actually. j/k :p

This is why I would suggest P4 (going into my other minor complaints with the game) cause its story is the main focus and often you actually need to finish story dungeons before the game will let you fully partake of the high school elements. The amusing thing is the HS sim is probably more comical and fun than I feel detracting and often the Social Links you engage in are actually well thought out especially when start to get into some of the minor depth to the SL system.

P4 is not as involved with the SL system like P3 was, but its no less important which is kinda where I start running into faults cause once again I found myself having the storyline interfere with gameplay and mechanics but I can at least forgive the title cause the plot was very good. Overall, P4 was really built around its New Game+ feature whereas P3 has one but it doesn't serve much of a purpose unless your playing the FES version.



I agree that FFV-FFX didn't offer much of a challenge in item management, I thought about addressing this in my post but decided it made my thoughts wander. The thing is, I played these games like it does matter. I barely use items in my play throughs, so in a way it could be considered an artificially added challenge. As I have said before, if I wasn't aiming for overkills and item/mana conservation in FFX I probably would have found it as boring as you did.So you "handicapped" yourself :p


I've remarked in other threads how I really didn't like the enviornments created in FFXII (or the whole world or story for that matter), so I'll just say that gambits allowing me to focus more on exploring wasn't a big draw for me.Been there, done that, I got your T-Shirt :D I'll simply agree to disagree and just stick to the fact that we have very different tastes in RPGs.



The thing about the overpowered set ups you described for FFT was that they were all end game set-ups. Having the end game unbalanced is something I am far more forgiving of than having it unbalanced at the beginning. As I have mentioned previous, it is when I don't have to tweak my party anymore that I lose interest. (I've also thought up a LOT more OP [MMO shorthand for overpowered] setups than the ones you mentioned. I find thinking of builds that surpassed even the traditional OP builds to be an enjoyable pursuit.)A) that is not terribly difficult to accomplish that set up especially in the original with the JP trick, with the exception of the equipment but even then, its not like this build isn't terribly overpowered even with sub-par weapons. Considering the high level increase you would get as well, you could easily waltz through the story mode.

B) If you thought up the builds, why not actually pursue them in the game? You say you enjoy experimentation and building powerful set ups for the title but it just seems to me you played the title, got a bad taste in your mouth for it and refuse to play anymore despite still thinking of ways to utilize the system properly. This is kinda confusing cause you basically say there is no need cause its got one perfect set-up but then say you thought of better set-ups and then go on to say how this is how you've always approached FFT? Once again I feel you are not giving XII a fair chance.



I found offensive magic to be completely useless in FFXII, with the spell que and all. Whenever I watch a spell being cast all I can think of the 6 auto attacks I could have landed in that time period and done more damage. And couple that with the fact anyone wanting to heal or buff is put into a holding pattern, every time I used magic it was an un-enjoyable experience. The funny thing is that I feel the same way about mages in FFT but it doesn't stop me from trying to make them good and have fun with them. Especially since magic has so many factors to deal with, such as Zodiac affinity, weather, equipment, and Faith. There is no point in using them until you get Calculator and even then why waste your time learning the majority of spells when all your really need is Flare and Holy?

The other problem is that a party of Knights is all you really need to get through the game. You don't need to even bother with most of the other classes. Sure there are better builds but Knights are all you really needs cause they have high attack power even at low levels and shields combo with their class specific Reaction command allows them to block most physical attacks, their high HP allows spells to not really be an issue as well most of the abilites high level classes have are either too slow or too weak to deal with. Knights are ridiculously easy to unlock and they just keep getting stronger as you progress. Once you get Running Shoes their is very little the game can throw at you to beat them. Not to mention when Ramza learns his Brave raising ability you can make them even more lethal but you don't even really need that either.

This is of course also ignoring how overpowered half the story characters are who seriously don't even need the job class system to make it through the end of the game.

I also feel you are exaggerating a bit cause most of the spells have fairly decent cast times with exceptions of end game spells like Flare/Holy/Scathe you also forget Magic has the advantage of hitting multiple targets at once and their are enemies that are much more difficult to kill without magic (Elementals anyone?), a well placed fire spell can clear a room of zombies and XII likes to throw full rooms of zombies at you. Granted, XII is not ridiculously hard but its difficulty is a step up from its predecessor.



I feel XII does offer you a min/max paradise, you just need to look beyond your normal train of thought and experiment, much like you would in Tactics.
Much more to say on this, but leaving for work is a higher priority at the moment.I look forward to it since I basically gave you examples about how FFT suffers from the same pit falls you've been attributing to XII ;)




Seriously, everyone should play but especially you and Bolivar. ;)

awww, that's so nice!!! :p

It's been on my list but like VeloZer0, I just don't know about the high school thing man. What if my girlfriend walked in on me playing that, and I specifically use the term "walked in on" because it might be an awkward moment where I would have to explain (not really she's actually into japanesey stuff like that). I think that's a pretty shallow reason so I should at least give it a shot, what's 30 minutes of my time, right?

Actually I'm gonna check if there's a demo up on the PS Store right now b/c I just got a PSP...

Its not really that bad and the beauty is that it actually all builds into the combat system cause you raise certain social stats in the HS parts which allow you to get access to different social links, which grant you powerful EXP. boosts to your Personas when you create them in the Velvet room as well as maxing out the Social Links unlocks powerful Personas to use. Almost every game mechanic in this title goes back into the others, its one cohesive system though its not obvious til you are a ways into the game. As I also said, the stories the SL give you builds a better world and P3 is probably one of the few RPGs in recent memory that made me want to save the world.

[VeloZer0]

In regards to handicapping myself in FFX, sure what I was doing was completely optional, but it is a little different as it is encouraged by the game. There is a 0% chance on the first play through that I am spontaneously going to decide 'hey, why don't I try to kill all the monsters by over 50% of their max hp!'. Had I not done something like this the game would be boring, but I see mountains of distinction between a game mechanic like this and something that the game doesn't encourage at all. (I'm not meaning to say the game itself discourages this either.)


A) that is not terribly difficult to accomplish that set up especially in the original with the JP trick, with the exception of the equipment but even then, its not like this build isn't terribly overpowered even with sub-par weapons. Considering the high level increase you would get as well, you could easily waltz through the story mode.
And how many people would know about the JP trick on the first play through? Unless you are researching for guides on how to play the game you would never know about this, and seeing how we are discussing building games for players who interested in experimenting and min/maxing it seems an inappropriate example. (I know there are people who would do this, and my heart cries for them.)

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The beef I was trying to explain with FFXII was that despite the fact that I am always trying to find ways to do things better I never once felt that there was a good reason to change. I tried experimenting with different weapons/magic at points in the game, but every time I just concluded that what it didn't offer anything more than what I was doing. And talking in a hypothetical sense, I think you can agree that even if a game has the most interesting and involved system in the world if you have to play it through, get into an argument with someone on a forum years later, then go back again to finally experience it, it probably isn't the best designed.

Taking FFT as an example once again (dam, I need a better variety of games I idolize :)), when I started the game I set up something I thought was good, but as I played I experimented and learned, all in a big vicious cycle that let to me reading through the entire BMG start to finish several play throughs later. Contrast to FFXII where I looked at my options at the start, set it up, experimented as I went and didn't ever feel like there was something I was missing.

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Which brings me to my next point. I REALLY REALLY wanted to like FFXII. The game reeks of production value, the graphics are stunning for the PS2, the voice acting and character modeling all fit excellently with each other, and the fact that it is a numbered FF title to begin with. I was disparately playing through the game hoping for it to get better, I really wanted to enjoy it. This is one of the reasons that I get so upset about the title, if it was just pure bad I could write it off and be done with it, but (to me) the sheer amount of wasted potential was a crime. Anyways the reason I am writing what must appear such a vicious appraisal of FFXII is to convey that as I was playing I wasn't trying to write the game off, I was desperately trying to find something to like about the game. (For the record I'm talking about plot and game play here, even if plot is outside the scope of this discussion.)

Anyways, I don't think we have more to discuss on this, we are just going to keep rehashing our last page of posts in a cyclical fashion, though if you see some angle we haven't explored I am still game for continuing this.

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On to another topic that has been suggested to me through the course of the last page of discussion. How do you make dungeons still feel dangerous? In the old days of FFI it was simple, just have monster encounters who could wipe out your entire party. Understandably having so many game-overs is not a way to move copies, and in order to become more mainstream you can’t really have the player getting the game-over screen too many times.

To me (I am far from an expert and I know others on th board can dissect the history of FF/RPGs with far more expertise than I can.) it seems like the danger of a dungeon came more in the form of resource management. Resource management was probably more important in FFI than later titles, but the threat of death from random encounters was considerably less in later titles, bringing the threat of running out of resources (I’m using this as a generic term for mana/items) to the forefront. In FFIV I never worried about running into a random encounter that would kill me, but I did worry about running into enemy encounters that would cause me to use to many heals or offensive magic to kill. That way there was still an edge to exploring the dungeon. Taking the side path felt like it was an actual risk, not just something to make the dungeon a little less linear. Fast forward, and when was the last time you felt like you were in peril in a dungeon in an FF title?

I feel they really need to bring this feel of danger in exploring a dungeon back. Obviously having to restart the dungeon numerous times keeps you on your toes, but I don’t think will be the financial success SE needs. Resource management appeals to me, but from what I’ve experienced from players in general, not so much to others.

Any thoughts on this?

[Wolf Kanno]

In regards to handicapping myself in FFX, sure what I was doing was completely optional, but it is a little different as it is encouraged by the game. There is a 0% chance on the first play through that I am spontaneously going to decide 'hey, why don't I try to kill all the monsters by over 50% of their max hp!'. Had I not done something like this the game would be boring, but I see mountains of distinction between a game mechanic like this and something that the game doesn't encourage at all. (I'm not meaning to say the game itself discourages this either.)

I would argue its no different from what I was doing with XII by making jobs. I literally looked at the equipment set-up and said to myself "Hey, I can actually do a makeshift FFTactics Thief with this gear... and looking over here I could make a Paladin... Hmm." so I went into the game looking at what if offered and made what I wanted since the game never made any clarification of how to build my party, it just gave me the tools and I ran with it. :D





A) that is not terribly difficult to accomplish that set up especially in the original with the JP trick, with the exception of the equipment but even then, its not like this build isn't terribly overpowered even with sub-par weapons. Considering the high level increase you would get as well, you could easily waltz through the story mode. And how many people would know about the JP trick on the first play through? Unless you are researching for guides on how to play the game you would never know about this, and seeing how we are discussing building games for players who interested in experimenting and min/maxing it seems an inappropriate example. (I know there are people who would do this, and my heart cries for them.) I'm afraid guides are the norm nowadays, even if they didn't buy the official guide they are probably still looking up Gamefaqs or other sites for ways to get the info. The days of games having little nuance secrets that only the dedicated would discover are long gone.

Also, I would say that building the party set up is still not terribly difficult without the JP trick, as long as you stuck to what you absolutely needed, you could still build this party set-up in a few hours. This is the fundamental flaw of Leveling systems, it takes skill to win a battle in other genres but for RPGs all you need to do is level up. This is why I do enjoy games that discourage power leveling by placing level caps, or lowering the EXP gain from enemies as you get higher in levels or just making the level gaps enormous.

Also, I feel anyone who is interested in min/max will eventually turn to a guide anyway cause there are some things that you will never grasp or notice without one. FFTactics is a prime example as I've been playing the game for years and I still learn new things.



The beef I was trying to explain with FFXII was that despite the fact that I am always trying to find ways to do things better I never once felt that there was a good reason to change. I tried experimenting with different weapons/magic at points in the game, but every time I just concluded that what it didn't offer anything more than what I was doing. And talking in a hypothetical sense, I think you can agree that even if a game has the most interesting and involved system in the world if you have to play it through, get into an argument with someone on a forum years later, then go back again to finally experience it, it probably isn't the best designed. I feel the best reason to change would be simply cause you were not having fun. To be honest, I never said XII has the best system but I feel its one of the better ones in the series, at least from what I was playing before hand.

As for not "enjoying it the first time around" while I would agree it does not make a system "great" I don't feel it makes it "bad" either. VII and X were both huge disappointments for myself but I still at least went back and tried them both out some more and really began to experiment with them more. X unfortunately is far too linear and is difficulty is non-existent so even though I've played three times, I find I dislike the game more each time I play it.

VII was a completely different story and I do have to give a bit of a shout out to Bolivar cause our arguing back and forth on VI and VII's battle systems made me eventually go back and really play with it a few times and I guess I finally got my "eureka" moment cause I do feel VII has a fun combat system if a bit too unbalanced for my taste (my main gripes for the system still stand). A recent playthrough of VIII was creating a similar effect. So yes, while I can agree its not a great system I don't feel it necessarily means you can truly write it off either.



Taking FFT as an example once again (dam, I need a better variety of games I idolize :)), when I started the game I set up something I thought was good, but as I played I experimented and learned, all in a big vicious cycle that let to me reading through the entire BMG start to finish several play throughs later. Contrast to FFXII where I looked at my options at the start, set it up, experimented as I went and didn't ever feel like there was something I was missing. Though your options for min/max are wide in the game and it is what brings me back, I guess the lack of the games storyline difficulty by end game sorta cheapens godhood for me. I've gotten good enough with FFTs system that I actually do have to hold myself back (I had a playthrough where I made Delita a Mastered Knight/ Squire/ Chemist and he was almost finished with Black Mage before I fought Algus). So I usually stick to using generics cause the story characters are too powerful or unbalanced in a lot of cases. Its almost getting to the point where I've been playing with rules about not using Ramza.

So while I discover new things to try and do, I kinda know in the back of my head that its kinda pointless cause the game can't offer anything challenging enough not to mention that FFT does have its fair share of "game breaking" elements (Cid and Balthier anyone?). What ultimately does ruin my min/max joys is when the game offers something that makes it all seem worthless. This goes into my gripe of VI and VII where I would build elaborate set-ups and tell friends about it only to have them retort, "that's cool but I just Quick/Ultima on Kefka or I used KoTR on Sephiroth". Kinda kills the buzz and that is what real game breakers are for me. Just a little side rant I guess.



Which brings me to my next point. I REALLY REALLY wanted to like FFXII. The game reeks of production value, the graphics are stunning for the PS2, the voice acting and character modeling all fit excellently with each other, and the fact that it is a numbered FF title to begin with. I was disparately playing through the game hoping for it to get better, I really wanted to enjoy it. This is one of the reasons that I get so upset about the title, if it was just pure bad I could write it off and be done with it, but (to me) the sheer amount of wasted potential was a crime. Anyways the reason I am writing what must appear such a vicious appraisal of FFXII is to convey that as I was playing I wasn't trying to write the game off, I was desperately trying to find something to like about the game. (For the record I'm talking about plot and game play here, even if plot is outside the scope of this discussion.) I can't argue, I have similar problems with VII, VIII, and X... well no I've decided X is just bad :p


Anyways, I don't think we have more to discuss on this, we are just going to keep rehashing our last page of posts in a cyclical fashion, though if you see some angle we haven't explored I am still game for continuing this. I guess we have derailed the discussion long enough ;)


On to another topic that has been suggested to me through the course of the last page of discussion. How do you make dungeons still feel dangerous? In the old days of FFI it was simple, just have monster encounters who could wipe out your entire party. Understandably having so many game-overs is not a way to move copies, and in order to become more mainstream you can’t really have the player getting the game-over screen too many times.

To me (I am far from an expert and I know others on th board can dissect the history of FF/RPGs with far more expertise than I can.) it seems like the danger of a dungeon came more in the form of resource management. Resource management was probably more important in FFI than later titles, but the threat of death from random encounters was considerably less in later titles, bringing the threat of running out of resources (I’m using this as a generic term for mana/items) to the forefront. In FFIV I never worried about running into a random encounter that would kill me, but I did worry about running into enemy encounters that would cause me to use to many heals or offensive magic to kill. That way there was still an edge to exploring the dungeon. Taking the side path felt like it was an actual risk, not just something to make the dungeon a little less linear. Fast forward, and when was the last time you felt like you were in peril in a dungeon in an FF title?

I feel they really need to bring this feel of danger in exploring a dungeon back. Obviously having to restart the dungeon numerous times keeps you on your toes, but I don’t think will be the financial success SE needs. Resource management appeals to me, but from what I’ve experienced from players in general, not so much to others.

Any thoughts on this?Dungeon design is terribly tricky and I feel XIII has, if anything, brought this into the forefront of discussions for fans and lines are being drawn.

Item management is fun but it bugs me when its the core challenge aspect like in early FF games or the DQ series. I can't say I don't like it either since there is plenty of this in the Persona/SMT series. MP restoring items are like priceless artifacts that come from another age in those games and due to physical abilites costing HP from your characters, you will burn through items quickly so item management is imperative.

I feel the best way to make a dungeon more challenging would be to enact certain rules upon the player that limit their capabilities. Not counting overall stuff like level caps, I'm thinking more like the Dark Elf cave from FFIV where you suddenly found yourself having to weaken your party in a cave filled with creatures that really require you to have top gear. Its one of the more definitive dungeons for me cause I feel its the point in the game where you suddenly realize the strategy behind the class system in this game. You lose your front line tank and force him to become your squishy healer.

I got a kick out of this with the optional Esper battles as well when they began to enforce rules upon you that limit your options and force your to change your strategies. Losing the ability to use Fight or Magic commands don't seem so bad when you hear it but after experiencing it its another story. Imagine a swamp that has a thick mist that prevents magic from being used and its also poisonous, forcing you to plow through your items and have to manage them carefully. Lets also say you can't where heavy armor or your party will sink as well, forcing your heavy melee characters to take more damage than normal. What if the melee characters followed SMT rules and thus physical special attacks consume HP... Granted this scenario would probably be too much for scrubs and people who only want to play the game for the story but this is at least where I would go with it.

Course the dungeon would still have to be a maze cause it would lose its frightening effect if it were just a simple line. ;)

I would also maybe implement puzzles that change the effects of the dungeon for the player. Most puzzles simply involve opening a way to the next area or getting out of the dungeon but what if your choices changed the nature of the dungeon itself? Trying to take the easy way out makes the enemies much more powerful, your party may be forced to run a lot and lose valuable experience and items and thus the game becomes harder. You could cause an earthquake that transformed a simple dungeon into a massive labyrinth with dead ends but lots of loot and consequently lots of encounter. You could cut down the encounters or make the enemies weaker but this creates multiple new puzzles you must solve to get past the nefarious lair. Of course to make this seamless it will be a combination of factors and you may never know what choices you make will effect the place.

I feel their are multiple ways to do this that remain untapped, but if RPGs continue the trend of "interactive movies" this will never really come to pass.

[VeloZer0]

One thing I do have to add on your concept of dungeon design, a design like that is extremely gimmicky IF it isn't done consistently. I absolutely loath when I've gone half way through the game and I encounter an area that requires a complete shift from what I was doing the whole rest of the game. It just screams "gimick!" to me and makes me lose a whole lot of enthusiasm for the game.

Conversely if the areas are diversified as a general rule and you are constantly having to change your set up/tactics then each new area is an interesting challenge, not some contrived way to break up the monotony.

Woo! Short post.

[Wolf Kanno]

That's where a lot of games fail, they come up with interesting ideas and it either is not as consistent or it somehow backfires and destroys the playability of a game.

I feel it happens a lot in titles that put too much emphasis on the narrative or other non-game related parts, which eventually makes the game design stale in order to tell a stronger story. This is sorta the reason why I advocate combining storytelling with game design instead of treating them as separate entities. The other problem is that I feel often than not, RPG designers feel all they have to do is make a good battle system and then they are done with "gameplay" which I also feel is a very bad way of looking at game design cause I feel RPGs are more than a battle system with a stat based experience system.

The few ideas I suggested above could easily be translated into a scenario to make the changes in the dungeon feel like part of the plot instead of just "this dungeons gimmick".