I don't feel like I... (Spoiler here) I guess

[LunarWeaver]

Saved the day or world or whatever. Ashe becomes Queen and presumably is a good one, and Larsa becomes Emperor of Archadia. I also assume he will be fair and good, yadda yadda.

But eventually these two will need to smurf people and make some heirs, won't they? There is no guarantee they will play nice. In the future, you could easy have a douchebag on the throne that starts an even worse situation.

But if I recall, there was a scene of Larsa's father talking to some sort of counsel. Could a counsel contradict his final decision?

They should have forced Ashe to relinquish her sovereignty and replace her with a balanced government where the people of Dalmasca have a say.

It's been forever since I played this, though. I could be mistaken, but I was left with the impression it was an absolute monarchy. I fail at history and governments and I could be totally bat:bou::bou::bou::bou: wrong about this.

[ANGRYWOLF]

some have been good/improvements over their predecessors.

In our world you have the two Russians, Peter the Great and Catherine the Great, Queen Victoria and Queen Elizabeth I as well a,King Richard the Lionhearted for Britain and probably some others I don't recall.

Not all people want a democracy.

Of course in our world that is what led to the Magna Carta. Richard was killed in the crusades and his brother John was a tyrant so the dukes and other leaders had to curtail his power and abuses
and of course it was abuses from the English that led to the American revolution.

In any system you can have good leaders and bad leaders...good Kings and bad ones, good Presidents in a democracy and bad ones.

Some systems seem to be more prone to abuses than others but they all have their advantages and disadvantages.

FFXII was deficient in several ways but the end wasn't one of them imo.

[LunarWeaver]

It's more of a dangerous future to keep it as it is than to change it, though. At least then people have a chance to listen to multiple leaders' bull:bou::bou::bou::bou:, and there are other systems to challenge that leader. It's about more giving people freedoms. I mean, if someone said something bad about the Emperor, could that Emperor simply kill the guy? There's no security of their rights.

Also keep in mind this isn't the real world. There's some heavy duty magic at work here, so a leader would be even harder to bring down than some of the worst people that have been at the top in our real history. Imagine if Hitler and all his followers could burn your face off with their fingertips. An heir could easily turn into a tyrant. There could be revolutions, but why leave a bigger chance to need that revolution? Try to have a government where the chances of that are lowest as possible.

It ended on a high note because of those two people's personalities, but...

[ANGRYWOLF]

a good guy/gal as King or monarch ?

Even in democracies you have the potential for abuses...

You can put checks and balances in like the dukes and counts did to King John with the Magna Carta charter.
Hard to do but it can be done.

Or you can have a revolution...like in the first Ogre Battle game.

There are no guarantees that the monarchy, after the king or Queen dies and has a successor, that the successor will be good.The successor could be a tyrant.So you cross that bridge when you come to it as you can never tell how someone will act when they get into power.:)

[LunarWeaver]

I could say the same about IX, you are right. I made the topic here only because it was more politically driven as a plot and made me think about it more.

I get what you're saying and all. In fact, I believe with the perfect individual as a Queen or King, a country would be better off. But they unfortunately die, and leaving it to a big chance just seems worse in the long run than making some changes to it. Like I said in the million edits that I tend to do (and this is one, sorry, I edit like a fiend and suck) I would rather keep the need to have a revolution to a minimum. The people of Dalmasca also didn't do jack :bou::bou::bou::bou: when Archadia swooped in and took over. They totally fell for all the rhetoric and put up with it. There was a resistance, but it wasn't big enough to be called a revolution in my eyes, and they initially failed miserably, no less. It's just... There didn't seem to be dukes and lords before Ashe as far as I can see. I can only hope she makes something of that sort.



I agree with and understand many of your points, though. :hat:

[ANGRYWOLF]

It's not like the Archadeans had a gestapo SS going around rounding up people they considered as threats.
The Archadeans appeared to me to be bored for the most part.

Years ago I read Stephen Kings The Dead Zone.
If you read that book the protagonist Johnny after getting his powers touched a corrupt politician and lerned due to that guy's incompetence the US would be destroyed in WW3.
I was a big fan of the short lived TV show as well as the movie.

If Johnny hadn't stopped him that is what would have happened.

Sadly no one has psychic powers to predict what some future pol might do.

;)

[LunarWeaver]

Yeah :( I wish it were so, but you're quite right -- they cannot see the future. And that's what gives me this tingling feeling I didn't really save Ivalice, only returned it to what it was already, which didn't work out at all. I can't help but feel like I didn't do anything, regardless of all your very good points concerning how it is, could be, and ended.

I guess I'm hung up on the matter. About a video game, too :jess: I need more of a life.

[ANGRYWOLF]

I haven't played Revenant wings so I don't know how it ends...

Then you have some sort of cataclysm and the the rise of St Ajora and those silly warriors..I have forgotten their names and the events in FF Tactics and Vagrant Story:

Final Fantasy Tactics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_Tactics)

From that we know Delita becomes King after he kills Ovelia.
A definitely untrustworthy fellow..

So you're right. That's pretty much where the Ivalice series ends unless Square someday chooses to do another sequel.

With Matsuno gone that seems highly unlikely.

So things do appear to ultimately end badly for the people of Ivalice.

[BG-57]

Then you have some sort of cataclysm and the the rise of St Ajora and those silly warriors..I have forgotten their names and the events in FF Tactics and Vagrant Story:

Zodiac Braves.

Ivalice reminds me of the great Russian opera Boris Godunov, where a holy fool laments that the people of Russia are doomed to self-interested and corrupt rulers. Which they pretty much are.

[ANGRYWOLF]

zodiac braves and the Lucavi...

I loved those lucavi..they were pretty horrific adversaries.

I hope someday there is a sequel although like I said it doesn't seem likely.

[LunarWeaver]

I never checked out the timeline much and always thought Tactics took place before XII for some reason or another. I don't even remember the game now, but that doesn't sound promising. It's interesting for a Final Fantasy to go the way this has. Which is why I, too, wish for Matsuno's return.

[ANGRYWOLF]

Ivalice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivalice#Timeline)

[Renmiri]

FFXII final was very weak. All those refugees on the mountains ? What of them ? Did anyone help them ? Or did they all die when Bergan went after Larsa ? Al Cid's people ? Did they went along peacefully with the changes ?

A lot of plotlines - and people - abandoned for a textbook "lived happily ever after" rushed ending.

[Quindiana Jones]

As I found out multiple times during the course of the game, Ashe can't die. Therefore she'll be Queen FOREVER. :D

[Wolf Kanno]

FFXII final was very weak. All those refugees on the mountains ? What of them ? Did anyone help them ? Or did they all die when Bergan went after Larsa ? Al Cid's people ? Did they went along peacefully with the changes ?

A lot of plotlines - and people - abandoned for a textbook "lived happily ever after" rushed ending.

While the power struggle in Rozarrio is never given much closure, seeing as how Al-Cid has enough time to be wandering the countryside and joining Clans to help them on a whim in FFTA2 (taking place quite a few years after XII) I feel its safe to assume that Rozzario may be in better hands.

As for the refugees, they do get helped, by helping themselves. This is all explained when you do the Mark Hunt Great Behemoth as you help that bitchy Viera to get that stick out of her ass and she begins to unify the survivors to help restore the temple and possibly become the future Gran Kiltias. :p So yeah, there is actual closure to them. Not to mention once the threat of war is adverted, most of the refugees probably returned to their homelands, so in a roundabout way, your party helps them twice.

The major thing adverted in FFXII is the Ivalice version of World War. A war that would have utilized terrible weapons like the Nethicite and the Sky Fortress Bahamut. Rabanastre would most likely would have become a wasteland like Nabudis. You're party for the most part all reclaimed what they wanted, Lady Ashe restored her kingdoms Sovereignty as well as reclaimed her throne, Vaan and Penelo saved their homeland and gained the tutelage and resources needed to become sky pirates. Basch fulfilled his oath to protect his new homeland and its royal family and was even able to reach some closure with his brother Noah. He now serves to fulfill a new oath and one that will actually keep political balance since Larsa isn't an asshole like the rest of Archades political system. Fran was able to help her sisters and reaffirm her own decision to leave the Wood, and Balthier was able to gain closure with his father Cid. Larsa himself is in better hands as the parliament of Archades was pretty corrupt itself and Vayne pretty much wiped out any political enemies House Solidar still had in Archades. By Revenant Wings, Archades and Rabanastre are on good political terms.

So I would say you really did save the day. As for the future of these countries, little is known about the eastern region of Ivalice after the Cataclysm unless you accept Vagrant Story as part of the timeline cause it takes place in the Archades region and the cult the main character follows is apparently connected to the religion of the Gran Kiltias.

[ANGRYWOLF]

runners of the Glabados church.

Assuming I spelled the name right.

All the ruins at Goug might make an interesting story as far as how all that happened..the devastation/calamity that caused that as well as the wiping out of several races.What caused it all.

:)

[Renmiri]

FFXII final was very weak. All those refugees....

While the power struggle in Rozarrio is never given much closure.....

Can't believe we are still battling each other over FFXII :p

[Wolf Kanno]

Almost since day one I got here on the forums. ;)

I was actually laughing about your comment cause we did have the discussion about the refugees before. :p

[LunarWeaver]

I often dream that we all live together and I can watch your ongoing dispute in real-time. See, I don't dream of flying cars or special powers. I dream of that.

Edit Power::bou::bou::bou::bou:, I should post something relevant to the topic. "So I would say you really did save the day." I agree, yes. There are many fantastic wrap-ups for everybody and a World War of sorts was stopped. But "day" is the word I'm talking about. I saved the moment, nothing more. I have no doubt Ashe and Larsa will bring about a golden age and such. That age will end.

This all reminds me of a scene in Tales of the Abyss. There's a princess fighting along side you, passionate about her people etc. Another character mumbles a comment wondering how she will feel about a Queen when she truly assesses her people and their representation. He, like I did considering how she talked and felt, wondered if she would give up the idea of a throne when she truly thought about it. Ashe made no question of this at all. She was very "It's mine," end of story for her.

The problem for me is they completely ignored what allowed Vayne to become what he became in the first place. They left the door wide open. That's why I get the feeling that I looped back around rather than truly fixed the initial problem. Happy moment wrap-ups, not much else.

But I only express the ending was not a totally happy one for me personally. There are plenty of valid counter-arguments to be had here. I'm merely bothered XII presented the ending like the fluffiest Ewok :bou::bou::bou::bou: when in my opinion it is inevitable all of this will just happen again if they don't at least try for changes. I'm sure I'm a minority in this. After all, there's always strife, somewhere, someone, in reality and in Ivalice, always, always, always. It never ends one way or the other, but I would have liked some sort of conversation about the matter. Vaan and Penelo, as regular citizens, would be perfect to whisper about it all. Hell, maybe Penelo could have a smurfing purpose in the game if she went all huff and puff about it. I'd love to see Ashe and Penelo get into a pissing match about this.

[PeneloRatsbane]

i liked the ending, they didn't pretend like they were all going to be friends forever, they all have their own lives to lead and the complicated political problems still remain but with Larsa and Ashe working toward a better future. It would have been stupid to have a "magic everything fixed" ending for the sake of wrapping up. These things take time

[Wolf Kanno]

It only feels a bit lackluster cause Ivalice extends beyond one game and has a huge timeline. Even if their was great political reform in XII it wouldn't change the fact that the Great Cataclysm is going to knock the whole planet back to the stone age. Then again, Ivalice was always designed to be a reflection of our real world and since its very unlikely we'll ever see a happy ending we have to settle for what victories we can get.

VII follows this same problem, its hard to take the Meteor Crisis as truly threatening when you learn the planet get saved from certain doom two times before the events of VII or that it will be saved from "certain doom" again another two times after Meteorfall. In the course of a decade, the planet was nearly destroyed five times total with only a few years apart from each other. Even Spira almost breaks out into civil war and then nearly gets wiped out by an ancient weapon of the past piloted by a pissed off ghost. This is sorta the reason why I don't like the idea of sequels, prequels, and spin-offs cause they kinda suck the excitement and momentum out of the games that are their source materials.

Before the X-2 was announced, I always justified the title Final Fantasy because we were watching the last great epics in these individual worlds. The last heroic and fantastic story that we the players were allowed to witness and play a part of.

[Skyblade]

It only feels a bit lackluster cause Ivalice extends beyond one game and has a huge timeline. Even if their was great political reform in XII it wouldn't change the fact that the Great Cataclysm is going to knock the whole planet back to the stone age. Then again, Ivalice was always designed to be a reflection of our real world and since its very unlikely we'll ever see a happy ending we have to settle for what victories we can get.

A reflection of our real world? I must have missed the part in history where the other sentient races that we had communed with for years were wiped out by a cataclysm and left us on our own to fight armies of demons over and over throughout time...:D

[Bolivar]

Well its like you said in your last post, Noctiluca, life goes on, that's just how it is, especially in these Ivalice titles.

I don't think we've touched yet on what the characters actually accomplish. Yes, war gets averted, this region of Ivalice is a little safer, and good-hearted leaders are on the throne in Dalmasca and Archadia. But it's much bigger than that.

Final Fantasy XII is about the liberation of mankind... er, and Viera and Moogles and Nu Mou and Bangaa's. The party was able to finally break the hold on history by the Occuria. Mortal, sentient beings will continue to make mistakes, but they will be of their own choosing and not commanded by self-proclaimed gods. Whatever happens from this point on is by humanity's own choosing... Well, I guess in FFT the Lucavi manipulate Vormav and the Temple Knights to manipulate High Priest Funeral and the Glabados Church to manipulate Prince Larg and Lord Goltana to manipulate Ovelia and Orinas as symbols of the Lion War... but at least it's not the Occuria!!!




FFXII final was very weak. All those refugees....

While the power struggle in Rozarrio is never given much closure.....

Can't believe we are still battling each other over FFXII :p

I gotta get back to these subforums :p